Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 800



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Mercenary Doctors
OT Civvie Influncecs on Forces (was Re: Imperial Marines)
RE: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc
Re : Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long, longish)
Re: 3dspace
RE: Imperial Marines
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)
Mostly "OT": Two reccommendations...
Re: More Battle Dress stuff
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Xenobiology 101: Putting it all together.
Re: 3dmapping
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:35:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Mercenary Doctors

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Not that far from the plot of one of Leinster's Med-Ship stories. But
the Med service doesn't approve of that sort of thing. And crossing
them can be *really* bad news.
>>>>>>>>>>>
1st Bad Merc Doctor: "Med Service? What are *they* going to do
about it?"
2nd Bad Merc Doctor: "Um, why does that Med Service delivery
shuttle have Imperial Marine markings?"

Both Together: "Run Awaaaaaaaayyyyy....!!!"

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 11:20:59 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: OT Civvie Influncecs on Forces (was Re: Imperial Marines)

At 06:16 PM 30/06/1999 PST, you wrote:
>
>Alas, this ios being toned down. I've heard reports that DIs can no
>longer make recruits "drop and give me 50" from drop[ping their rifle.
>In fact, assigning push ups as punishment apparently requires cinsent
>of the recruit now!
>
>I got this from some marines griping in another newsgroup.
>
>While it isn't confirmed, it's all too likely given the serious
>civilian/military differences. :-(
>

        Hi, Leonard!
        We have a similar problem in Canada.  The work around that most
DI's, etc use is to simply say the individual requires more PE training to
get to a "minimum level of endurance"...  The push-ups and laps are
scheduled for leave periods, etc.  Its not punishment, its extra training.
<wink, wink> 

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:18:51 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: RE: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc

Someone wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As a contribution to the very interesting BD thread, I'd like to refer
folks to a comic book limited series of a few years ago: Shadow Empires by
Chris Moeller.  It follows the leader of a battalion(?) built around a
squad (platoon?) of what is known as "Iron" in this TU.  It's beautifully
rendered (fully painted) and has a nifty politico-socio-religious
background.  Cool visual realizations of BD and other personal armor,
weapons, vehicles, ships, etc.  I'd also take a look at another series of
his, more recent: Sheva's War.  This story is set a few subsectors over
and follows a noblewomen in charge of troops when the stuff hits the fan.
Interesting take here is on psionics--not pyrotechnically strong, but
subtle and strictly the purview of the nobility.  Also fully painted.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Chris is a good friend of mine, and I will pass this along to him.  Thanks
for the great review.  Much of that history and story came from traveller
games way in the past.

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 00:28:55 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long, longish)

Doh!
I wrote :-
> But our 20 amino acids aren't the only possible ones. There are six
> equally likely alternates to tryptophan that have the same empirical
> formula, for example.

What was I thinking? There are five other equally likely tryptophan
analogues that aren't produced by terrestrial life ; they *don't* all
have the same empirical formula.

Now think about what happens when you start swapping atoms e.g. boron
for nitrogen, selenium for sulphur (selenocysteine and
selenomethionine)... ahh, diversity!

<factoid>
[By way of explanation :-
Amino acids have the following general formula :-
          H     O
          |    //
    NH2 - C* - C         where R can be all sorts of intriguing side
          |     \        chains
          R      OH

The asterisked carbon, since it has four different substituents
attached, is an optical centre].
</factoid>
 
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:38:10 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: 3dspace

>Actually I would just like to see the formula. 
>I do most of my programming in qbasic.
>>>>Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into
>>>>bearing and mark?

If you know the x,y,z relative to you, then its basic trig (from
tangent=opposite/adjacent):

  bearing (left to right) = arctan(z/x)
  mark (up/down) = arctan(z/y)

you will also need to test the signs of x,y,z to determine left/right, up/down,
fore/aft.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:37:08 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Marines

Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:54:18 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

In message <E8716CBCEB0DD211A0B50000F89CCBE202F0380E@dca4p03.phs.com>,
Jay.Alverson@phs.com writes
>Someone was complaining that the robots in the robot army in "Phantom
>Menace" couldn't hit anything.
>
>My friend said "neither could the stormtroopers."

When it appeared in "Blake's 7" we attributed it to viral crappy aim
disease.
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 09:00:00 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:59:26 -0400
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>Like I've already said, I'm not sure that the marines would be expected to
>do the "hearts and minds" routine. Even if a government is *trying* to win
>the hearts and minds of a population, not every branch of the armed services
>will be handing out candy bars to little kids or helping to relocate people
>living in areas where fighting is growing more intense.

You miss the point. The same reference that says all Marines (in a line
Task Force, which may or may not apply to ship's troops) wear battledress
also says that they "serve as an interstellar police force in many places
along the frontier, keeping the peace and enforcing the Imperial rules of
war." This has nothing to do with handing out candy, it has to do with
identifying and separating belligerents from uninvolved civilians in
situations that are not clear-cut. That requires talking to people, which
in turn requires gaining a measure of trust. If no one talks to you, you
don't know what's going on and you can't complete your mission -- period.

Micronuking a sniper is an effective tactic, *IF* the local populace agrees
that it is a reasonable use of force. The standard response to snipers in
Operation URGENT FURY was a volley of 105mm HE. This was clearly spelled
out to the populace, who weren't too happy with the Cubans and their
supporters anyway. There was also a token bounty offered for any
military-grade weapons turned in to the US forces, no questions asked.
Result? The populace turned in anyone who might have remotely thought about
sniping at US forces, before the incident occurred. This, however, would
not have worked at all if someone in the task force hadn't been able to
explain the set up to the locals.

Use excessive force, cause unjustified collateral damage, and don't
communicate the need to the local citizens? Sure -- once, maybe twice.
After that, you turn the population against you, whatever their
inclinations were before. For all his high-tech weaponry, a Marine is still
just one man, he has to sleep sometime, and enough determined people can
still take him out -- the historical examples are too numerous to mention.
Long before it gets to that point, however, the Marine's mission has
*failed*, because he can no longer get the information and cooperation he
needs for "keeping the peace and enforcing the Imperial rules of war."

"The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your
fingers."
- -- Leia Organa

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:12:15 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)

In a message dated 6/30/99 10:38:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

> Sorry, but given that such moons are almost certainly tidally locked
>  *to the GG*, then to a first approximation, their solar day is equal to
>  their orbital period around the gas giant. 
>  
>  Check any reference about the length of Luna's day for diagrams and
>  references. 

I went to the simplest reference I could find, the encyclopedia on the
bookshelf behind my computer.  Upon opening the M volume to "Moon"
the first thing that hit me in the face was a diagram showing the Moon's
orbit around the Earth. The caption said, and I quote:

"The Moon takes 27.3 days to complete one revolution around the Earth
with respect to the stars, but 29.5 days with respect to the Sun because
of the Earth's simultaneous motion around the Sun."

Does it have to be any more clear for you?

I will grant you, the effect will likely be smaller for a gas giant's moon.
The gas giant has a longer orbital period, the moon will likely have a
much shorter one.  But the discrepancy will still exist.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:19:24 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: Mostly "OT": Two reccommendations...

Greetings All:

Two items that I think you ought to take a look at...

First, for those who have DVD players, take a look at the "Alien Legacy" 
boxed set. My daughter (really my wife) gave this to me for my recent 
birthday (40! 40! When did I hit 40! Panic attack! Mid-life crisis! Time to 
seriously play Traveller again and capture my lost youth! "Yut? Yut? What's a 
yut?")

Anyway...

Four DVD's, one for each of the movies. Plus, if you send in a coupon and a 
nominal fee, you can get a fifth DVD on the "making of". Not sure if it's the 
making of the movies or the making of the boxed set...

Alien: Has Ridley Scott commentary that you can overlay on the movie. You 
also get some trailers (movie and TV), which are kind of interesting to see 
what they were pushing the movie on. Plus, you get two "outtakes" (one of 
which adds something to the movie, the other is kind of a throwaway) and you 
get all the footage that was filmed, included, but then cut (I think after a 
preview). One of these scenes is the (in)famous scene where Ripley comes 
across her crewmates that have been...entombed...a scene that, IMHO, 
**should** have been left in as it's creepy as all hell.

Downside to this disk is that (at least I haven't found a way) in viewing the 
movie, you can't choose to include these missing scenes sequentially back 
into the movie. You've got to view them separately, or use the menu function 
to pause, jump to the missing scene, jump back to the movie, etc.

Aliens: Again, various doo-dads (trailers, commentary, some making of stuff 
showing the models and what not). Missing footage--some of this you may have 
seen a few years ago in either a cable version or a broadcast version (Ripley 
learns the fate of her daughter, etc.). This time, there is **more** missing 
footage added in (early scenes of the colony, how they discovered the aliens, 
etc.), but better than Alien--the footage is part of the movie, no jumping 
around! Makes it a better movie, IMHO. I think that (as with the re-released 
Abyss), Cameron usually cuts stuff that he should not have!

Alien III and Alien Legacy: Haven't viewed these disks yet, but there's some 
doodads (trailers, etc.), but no missing footage.

The other recommendation:

Look for "Chariots for Apollo: The Untold Story Behind the Race to the Moon" 
by Charles R. Pellegrino and Joshua Stoff. Avon Books, reprint 06/99, $13.50 
US, ISBN 0-380-80261-9.

Why am I recommending this?

Three uses for Traveller, not all "canonical":

1. If you are running one of the alternative Traveller games that have 
floated around this list on occasion (e.g., the 1960's space race, the 1950's 
"Conquest of Space" race, etc.), you'll find this useful. Good details 
(including drawings) of the Soviet Union's moon plans, stuff that I have not 
found in other books I've read.

2. "Ghost in the Machine": Are spaceships haunted? Do spaceships have 
personalities? One chapter (including a interview with Jesco von Puttkamer) 
talks about the Saturn IB that would have launched the Apollo 1 crew into 
orbit (this was the crew that was killed on the pad). This Saturn IB was 
later used to launch a non-manned test capsule. Pellegrino and von Puttkamer 
talk about how machines have "personalities", some interesting stuff that 
could be adapted to Traveller, both canonical and some of the alternative 
universes.

3. Lots of interesting descriptions of how complicated the LEM was. Machined 
parts. Tolerances. Weird stuff with repairs, tests, quality control. Yes, 
Traveller assumes standardization, mass production, etc. but you might find 
some good stuff here to throw at your players on repairs, retrofitting older 
ships, etc.

Take a look! Highly recommended as a book, as well as a reference...

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:01:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: More Battle Dress stuff

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com writes:
 
>      Just a thought, but has anyone figured out the ground pressure of this
>  beasty?  I remember looking at the Scout/Commando suit and back-of-
> the-envelope figuring that it's ground pressure was much greater than that
> of  a tank.

Largely irrelevant, since it has contragravity, but not that high.  Of course,
this is in part due to ground pressure in Vehicles being slightly futzed to
encourage mecha.  Of course, as someone else notes, the legs in commando BD are
absurdly huge (the reason for this was probably _not_ correcting ground
pressure, actually.  It's probably because G:Vehicles has some magic
breakpoints in most drivetrains at 5 kilowatts, and the writer decided to
exceed 5 kilowatts so the BD could go absurdly fast on the ground.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:24:07 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Yep, I started in Artillery!  I'm pretty sure I would have been able to fire
> > over hills at targets I never knew what were what!  Although, during WWII,
> > there was a high incidence of bomber pilots and crew that suffered mental
> > problems from bombing faceless targets too!  We are complex animals...
>
> Well, one *big* difference between artillery and bombers is that the
> bomber crews *see* the target, even if they don't see the people there.
> And since a *lot* of the targets were cities, I'd says it's not *that*
> big a jump. After all, one city looks much like another from the air.

If any of you have access to "On Killing" (author's name escapes me),
there is a discussion about this, i.e, range to target.  Not seeing the
target is psychologically helpful.  But not sensing the target directly
is better.  There is the example of "hand-grenade" range given in regard
to WWI tranch warfare, where hearing the targets after a grenade
was very disturbing, though not as disturbing as "bayonet range"
and closer in.

The book is worth skimming, especially for non-military types.
You might even be able to quickly draft a table of morale modifiers
based on range.  But then, we could do that with the people on
the TML in less than a day.

But I can't say I'd recommend the book.  Although the author was
an Army officer for some time and is now a professor, I found the
book to be rather thin on the documentation.  Its clear that he
interviewed many combat veterans and that he has read a lot
of studies, and he cites the latter, but not in detail and not well.
There is also some good ol' B.S. in portions.  I was expecting
something a good deal more academic than this.  You might have
seen the author on TV.  He was everywhere after the Columbine
incident.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:32:16 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Xenobiology 101: Putting it all together.

You know, this thread is excellent.

Wouldn't it be lovely if it were on a website somewhere?
Say Donwport.com, or some other place?
And HTMLized?

</hint>
</hint>


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 11:55:17 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: 3dmapping

Actually yes, that is what I want to do.

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > WOW!
> > Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into
> > bearing
> > and mark?
>
> Could you be a bit more specific as to *exactly* what you want?
>
> Assuming that what you want is to take the (x,y,z) co-ordinates of two
> points and generate a relative bearing, it's doable, but *messy*.
>
> The "simple" part is modifying the (x,y,z) co-ordinates so that one
> ship is at (0,0,0). You just add/subtract the same amount to the X, Y
> and Z co-ordinates of *each* ship.
>
> Then you just do a rectangular to spherical co-ordinate transform. The
> new co-ordinates will be theta, phi and r. Theta is the angle from the
> X or Y axis (I forget which). Phi is the angle from the X-Y plane. And
> r is the distance from the origin.
>
> If that's what you want, I'll dig up the formulas, but they are messy.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Big eyed Anime grin.


        Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:01:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


>There is also some good ol' B.S. in portions.  I was expecting
>something a good deal more academic than this.  You might have
>seen the author on TV.  He was everywhere after the Columbine
>incident.


Grossman. Dave Grossman I think.

Yeah. I saw this guy on television. I *stopped* seeing him after different
television news programs started pairing him up against lawyers and
academics whose views on video game violence weren't quite the same. A *big*
warning about the author: he was quite lacking in his ability to defend his
viewpoints. He was the type of guy, who when confronted intelligently by
people who disagree would chuckle condescendingly and then simply blurt out
a soudbite that had little to do with the subject at hand.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 10:13:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 01:59 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Like I've already said, I'm not sure that the marines would be expected to
> >do the "hearts and minds" routine. Even if a government is *trying* to win
> >the hearts and minds of a population, not every branch of the armed services
> >will be handing out candy bars to little kids or helping to relocate people
> >living in areas where fighting is growing more intense.
> 
> "Give me your hearts and minds or I'll burn your Godd**n hut down."

While I know this is said in jest, let's just think a moment...that
tactic worked _so_ well when it has been tried in the past!

(excuse me while I mop up the sarcasm)

The trend here seems to be that the IM are just a faceless bunch of baby
killing chrome freaks with severe cases of cyberpsychosis (to mangle
several game metaphors).

Their use as indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction is jarringly
different from their clear literary progenitors, Heinlein's Mobile
Infantry. There's a sizeable section in there regarding their training
in the _selective_ use of force, where if they were ever asked to go in
and kill every left-handed red-haired male in a drop zone and leave
every thing else standing untouched, they could do it. They made extreme
violence extremely personal. That was the mission of the MI. Mass
destruction was left to someone else.

The IM, like the MI, (he he) specialize in the selective application of
overwhelming force. If you're going to take out three buildings to get
rid of a sniper, hell, just ask the Navy to nuke it from orbit. Deadfall
ordinance is cheaper, just as accurate, and just as randomly
destructive.

If the IM are always used as the fbbkcfcp's they're being described as,
the Imperium will soon have a lot more than a few brush wars to deal
with. The use of terror troops to maintain order will inevitably lead to
widespread rebellion, and that will disrupt trade more than anything
else.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:24:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen


>In mail you write:
>
>Warning, I don't have the book you are using, so my answers may not match.


Okay.

>> 1.) How does a worldbuilder figure out a blackbody temp for a moon? In
the
>> formula B=(278 * Fourth Root of L) / Square root of R (p. 75) is R the
>> radius of the parent world's orbit in the case of a moon?
>
>Probably.


Yes. Jon already pointed me in the right direction on this. I was just
checking to see if I was doing it correctly.

>> 2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
>> general?
>
>I'd say that you need to check for radiation belts. Jupiter's will kill
>you in short order. Any settelements on its moons will have to be well
buried.


I remember that you said something similar when I asked what things might be
like if I happened to live on a gas giant's moon some time back. Okay, is
there a quick and dirty method for figuring out the radius of a gas giant's
radiation belt? Or is there a rule of thumb?

What are possible ways that the high-tech society of the Traveller universe
may have figured out to combat such a problem? Are ships in the TU shielded
against such radiation, or are there special considerations that pilots
might have to keep in mind when skimming for fuel?

Would it be possible to erect some sort of shield around a colony? In a
crude fashion, would a dome made out of, say, lead or something similar be
feasible?

Are there other methods to defend against radiation? I'd suspect that, on a
moon, it would be best to just dig in. How about an orbital colony or base
though?

Thanks though. Your response has been quite helpful.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 14:08:37 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Robert O'Connor wrote:
> 
> Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien building?
> I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and physiology.
> Thad Coons posted some stuff a little ways back about pre-biotic
> chemistry ; Ian 'Peez' Ferguson can keep us honest if he has the time.
> 
> Robert O'Connor
> Medico, Gamer

in a 1964 issue of "Galaxy" magazine, there is an awesome article on
Xeno-biology.  Wish I still had it..
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:28:04 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

Sorry if my answers late, but I've been off list for a couple of weeks,
while at Argonne National Labs, and am only now catching up on my email.
>
> >I will have to disagree here.  Several points.
>
> No problem, as I said, this is in my proposal for GT:GF
> >
> >Number 1. Not every use of marines will involve
> >battle dress. In less dangerous environs, the marines will be armed
> >with lesser weapons and in body armor. Not every job for them will
> >be one that combat is expected. They had best be able to handle
> >trouble in that state.
>
> That's the Army's job.  The Army is the force you send in for
> peacekeeping,
> internal security all that rot.  The Marines are a pure shock and combat
> force.  They are nothing but kick ass.  Tell a Marine to be subtle and
> he'll refrain from using micronukes.
>
Not quite true. Among other things a Regiment of the Imperial Marines serve
in the Imperial Guard, which I would think include all kinds of duties. They
also act as security on Navy ships, where collateral damage is an issue.
Stopping a mutineer by discharging plasma guns in engineering is a bad idea.


> In short the Imperial Marine Force is the ultimate level of Imperial
> intervention.  When they come in, just their presence can stop rebellions
> in their tracts.

> >Number 2. The battle dress is expensive. Perhaps only some of the
> >contingent of marines in a garrison will have battledress.

Maybe. My impression is that the Marines not only have a standard black or
camouflage
battle dress, but also a maroon battledress for ceremonial occasions (Read
as any time they want to stick out.) I suppose some kind of chameleon
covered battledress could allow one suit to serve both purposes, but I kind
of think that the maroons would be more ornate, probably with rank insignia
and unit markings, something I wouldn't expect to see on common battledress;
or at least not prominently displayed.

> When not on combat deployments, they wear some sort of utility/fatigue
> uniform.

Absolutely, and the color would, of course, be maroon.


> The Imperium can easily afford to equip the 5000 or so Marines in each
> subsector.  Assume that Marine Assault BD costs about Cr. 500,00 with
> weapons.  That's 2.5 billion credits per subsector.  Easily raised by the
> Imperium.
>
> >Number 3. In a safe zone, marines could be attacked by surprise.
> >It would look really bad for the Emperor's best to be trashed by
> >some unarmored schmucks.
>

> They do have weapons for self defense, but they don't train in combat ops
> the way the Army does.  Think of them as tankers.. they are lost outside
> their vehicles, with minimal training on what to do if their vehicle is
> disabled.
>
> >Cloth and Autorifle (or even shotgun; maybe even just sidearms
> for "safe"
> >missions like embassy duty or something). Here's an adventure nugget:
> >Protect a diplomat who decides that the "big stuff" can't be used for
> >"diplomatic" reasons.
>
> Marines on Embassy duty stand in their best class As and look impressive.
> When the Embassy is threatened they do don items like CES and use
> shotguns,
> but Embassy duty is a special case.  The vast majority of the
> Fleet Marines
> only use battledress in combat, and that could leave a Marine forced to
> fight without it with a bad case of the shakes.
>
>
I would compare them more to present day U.S. Marines, where everyone, from
tanker to embassy guard is a rifleman first. Imperial Marines are combat
infantry first. They also provide security to starports and Navy vessels and
embassies.  I've no doubt that the Embassy guards and members of the
Imperial Guard are cream of the crop. But I don't really think that Marines
assigned to shipboard security live in their battledress or that Marines at
Starport gates are all in their Battledress Maroons, all of the time. This
implies a range of training.
I do agree that if you drop a Sylean Ranger and an Imperial Marine naked in
a marginal Terran environment that the Ranger would do better. But if you
dropped an IA tech or a Marine tech into the same position I would expect
the Marine to have a higher chance of survival.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #800
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 801



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Spaceship models
Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: Imperial Marines
Yahoo new clause
Re: Webspace ownership on AOL
Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: Yahoo new clause
Re: Yahoo new clause
Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: Yahoo new clause (LONG)
Re: Yahoo new clause
Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: Batledress, Hoorah!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 11:34:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Spaceship models

  For the seriously (?) miniatures inclined there's a line of plastic 
models available - looks like re-issues (man. Bandai, 1979?) of the
models for the "Space Cruiser Yamato" (aka "Star Blazers for us round-
eyes) cartoon/animated movie/anime series.

  For about $4 you get one of their dozen-plus ships (e.g #14 is a 
Gamilon battleship) - the sample is good quality, about 5" long (and
slender - but still bulky enough for a 2+ Kt destroyer in Traveller),
with around 50-odd parts on three sprues. The instruction diagrams 
inside the box lid are clear enough (i.e., I don't read Japanese).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen

Chris Seamans writes:
> >
> >I'd say that you need to check for radiation belts. Jupiter's will kill
> >you in short order. Any settelements on its moons will have to be well
> buried.
> 
> 
> I remember that you said something similar when I asked what things might
> be like if I happened to live on a gas giant's moon some time back. Okay,
> is there a quick and dirty method for figuring out the radius of a gas
> giant's radiation belt? Or is there a rule of thumb?

Hm..."enough to clobber inner moons"?  I'm not really certain, it depends on
the magnetic field of the gas giant, not sure how consistent that is.
> 
> What are possible ways that the high-tech society of the Traveller universe
> may have figured out to combat such a problem? Are ships in the TU shielded
> against such radiation, or are there special considerations that pilots
> might have to keep in mind when skimming for fuel?

Ships in traveller clearly have some sort of uber-shielding against radiation,
simply because people don't get fried by conventional solar radiation, nor do
they get fried by skimming gas giants for fuel.
> 
> Would it be possible to erect some sort of shield around a colony? In a
> crude fashion, would a dome made out of, say, lead or something similar be
> feasible?

Radiation shielding is mostly a matter of raw mass per unit area.  For long
term inhabiting, figure 2-3 meters of rock.
> 
> Are there other methods to defend against radiation? I'd suspect that, on a
> moon, it would be best to just dig in. How about an orbital colony or base
> though?

Realistically, the best methods are either lots of mass in the way, or
generating a magnetic field (which is, incidentally, another good reason to
have circular space stations, since magnetic shielding is sort of
torus-shaped).  However, I believe that canon has superdense and bonded
superdense with extraordinary protective abilities against radiation.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:41:04 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>One thing I've had fun with is justifying the infamous Marine Cutlass.  At
>BayCon, I had a chance to speak with Frank Lurz, a fairly well-known artist
>and fencer, and learned from him that fencing is mostly about body
>position.  The light went on in my head.  Marines are taught the basics of
>fencing both as tradition and to make them "body aware", since they'll be
>controlling their armor by subtle movements of the head and hands.  Many
>Marines keep up the hobby, and become master fencers.
>- --

I would like to suggest you include the use of hyperdense blades on Marine
cutlasses during boarding actions. Its very CT. There have been extensive
discussions on this subject right here.  I've distilled what I think is the
best of them and included it on one of the pages of my still under
construction website at:

http://members.home.net/carlino/imperial.htm


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:55:29 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Still days behind, but thought I'd add my two millicredits anyway.

>Can't agree with your BD-only interpretation and the clear lines
>between Army and Marine responsibilities.  One important factor
>in my mind is that because of the distances and time lags involved,
>you send in whoever is closest.  That means flexibility of response.
>
>I tend to think of the Army as slower to mobilize.  They're on
>one planet, you determine the destination, put 'em on ships,
>several weeks later, you put 'em on another planet.  Whatever the
>duty is on the destination world, it is known and the Army is
>a tailored response.

Don't forget the biggest difference between the IA and the IM. The Imperial
Army is made up of units raised in each Domain. If the Archduke of the
Domain is popular these units might be a touch more loyal to him than to the
Emperor. The IM recruit from across the Imperium. Like the Navy (which is
also partially raised by the Domains, but is often then sent to serve in
other sectors) the IM are a more inherently loyal force. I would expect
Marine tradition to revolve around loyalty to the Iridium Throne, the Corps
(the IM as a whole), and ones' comrades, with a smattering of Foreign Legion
fatalism thrown in, while Army tradition would center on the regiment and
the corps (COACC, Wet Navy, Armor, etc.)


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:59:50 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

Summary: Seems Yahoo/Geocities is not willing to lose its 
homesteaders. We'll see.
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

The following article was selected from the Internet Edition
of the Chicago Tribune. To visit the site, point your browser
to http://chicagotribune.com/. This special e-mail feature is
brought to you by First Chicago.

- ----------- Chicago Tribune Article Forwarding----------------
Article URL: 
http://chicagotribune.com/tech/news/article/0,2669,ART-31055,FF.html

Yahoo! bends after GeoCities users grousing
By Michelle Collins

In response to concerns by people who set up home pages on GeoCities,
Yahoo! clarified its terms of services to alert users that it does not
own content posted on their servers. 

Yahoo! on May 30 completed its purchase of GeoCities, which hosts Web
pages for users who are known as homesteaders. 

This past weekend, all GeoCities pages were integrated in Yahoo!,
which required users to sign a new terms of service agreement. That
agreement, which included several sentences about Yahoo!'s rights to
use content on homesteaders' pages, angered many users and prompted
several to complain to Yahoo! 

Yahoo! late Wednesday added to its terms of service a statement
clarifying its section on promotional use of the material on the
pages. 

"Yahoo does not own Content you submit, unless we specifically tell
you otherwise before you submit it," the terms state. "You license the
Content to Yahoo as set forth below for the purpose of displaying and
distributing such Content on our network of properties and for the
promotion and marketing of our services." 

The statement was added to a section the terms of service, which still
state: "By submitting Content to any Yahoo property, you automatically
grant, or warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly
granted, Yahoo the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive
and fully sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify,
adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute,
perform and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or
to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now
known or later developed." 

Many users understood the passage to mean that Yahoo! had ownership of
all material on the pages, and that GeoCities homesteaders couldn't
log in to the system to retrieve their files without agreeing to the
new terms. 

That isn't true, however, said Tim Brady, executive producer of Yahoo!
Inc. 

"A lot of our users expressed extreme concern that they thought the
wording was too broad," Brady said. "The intentions have not changed,"
but the wording is clarified. 

The section without the clarification had angered many people who had
pages on GeoCities before the integration on the Yahoo! site. 

"I don't like the fact that I have no way of changing my page, taking
advantage of Yahoo!'s tremendous promotional Web presence, and
continuing without the songs on the Web site," said Glenn McMurray,
creator of a GeoCities Web site for Chicago-area band Screaming
Bluedogs. 

"I don't like that there was no warning," McMurry said. "I really
don't think I would have missed any notice. It would have/should have
been professionally done as most all of the correspondence has been
with Geocities." 

"The targeted advertising and mandatory pop-ups aren't enough for
them," said Marcela Musgrove, a GeoCities homesteader from Chicago.
"Now they want to take away all rights to our material? That's going a
little too far." 
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:57:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


>You miss the point. The same reference that says all Marines (in a line
>Task Force, which may or may not apply to ship's troops) wear battledress
>also says that they "serve as an interstellar police force in many places
>along the frontier, keeping the peace and enforcing the Imperial rules of
>war."

And like I've already said, I'm not entirely convinced that translates into
the same thing as we're familiar with in the real world. Enforcing the
Imperial rules of war seems to me to be something that would be decisive and
brutal. Also, keep in mind that it doesn't say that Imperial marines are the
*only* group that keeps the peace in the Imperium. We're running into
another snag with differing canon views though.

Why? Upon reviewing the Impie rules of war in MT's Imperial Encyclopedia it
appears that military intervention is a last resort. The Imperial policy
seems to be "Hands off until it gets really bad." In fact, upon rereading
the entry again, it almost seems like they're saying, "A war is good for a
planet every once in awhile." Hence, the concept of a peace-keeping force
may be quite different when viewed through Imperial eyes.

The first criterion that is listed in the entry is "Long-term social or
economic dislocation is suffered when a region loses its ability to carry on
at its prewar level of economic activity."

In other words, the war has become so protracted that there's no way to end
it but by the Imperium stepping in and putting its foot down.

The second criterion relates to "excessive" extraplanetary interference. The
definition is somewhat blurry. Basically, if another party is interfering in
such a way that the first criterion will be met by their mucking about, the
Imperium has to come in and put its foot down. This might not even mean
influence on the planet's surface. It might mean that the Imperial marines
take a trip to the interfering organization's world or base as a show of
force.

The third criterion is the possession of nuclear weapons. Individual GMs may
change this rule to cover all "weapons of mass destruction": nuclear,
chemical, biological and (if they're included in the campaign)
nanotechnological.

>This has nothing to do with handing out candy, it has to do with
>identifying and separating belligerents from uninvolved civilians in
>situations that are not clear-cut. That requires talking to people, which
>in turn requires gaining a measure of trust. If no one talks to you, you
>don't know what's going on and you can't complete your mission -- period.


Fair enough.

However, by the time the Imperial forces show up, I would imagine that the
war has been going on for a goodly amount of time. Your making the
assumption that in all cases it will be a Vietnam-type situation where it's
difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys. In some cases, for
example, destroying offworld supply lines from an interfering party might be
appropriate, or dropping marines into the heat of battle to eliminate both
sides in a conflict.

There are many other methods that don't rely on what our late 20th century
view of peace-keeping and police actions are.

<snipped example of use of excessive force when dealing with insurgents>

>Use excessive force, cause unjustified collateral damage, and don't
>communicate the need to the local citizens? Sure -- once, maybe twice.


Of course, the Imperial rules of war seem to imply that once the trade and
manufacturing infrastructures are destroyed on a planet it's time to bring
in the guys in powered armor and end the war.

>After that, you turn the population against you, whatever their
>inclinations were before. For all his high-tech weaponry, a Marine is still
>just one man, he has to sleep sometime, and enough determined people can
>still take him out -- the historical examples are too numerous to mention.
>Long before it gets to that point, however, the Marine's mission has
>*failed*, because he can no longer get the information and cooperation he
>needs for "keeping the peace and enforcing the Imperial rules of war."


I'm still not sure I can understand what cooperation the marines need to
enforce the Imperial rules of war. As far as peace-keeping, I'm still not
convinced that it's the same concept we know here on late 20th century
Terra.

>"The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your
>fingers."
>-- Leia Organa


Well, I don't know what Lord Vader's take on the Imperial rules of war would
be. He'd probably vote to just destroy whole planets out-of-hand. ;)

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the Imperial marines
are... I don't know how to say it exactly... the smartest of smart bombs
maybe. They are a razor edge that's applied to get a very specific result. I
don't believe I ever said that I think the Imperial marines come in and
destroy whole cities. I did say that I think they would be dropped to use
overwhelming force. However, such force is applied surgically. I never said
that they indiscriminately murder every man woman and child.

Remember, Imperial marines can be dropped just about anywhere on a planet in
a very short time, if their "mothership" is in orbit. It's not like Terra,
where the U.N. hears a war is going on, debates action for a period of days,
weeks, months, even years, and then eventually a peace-keeping force is
assembled and set in another period of weeks or months. If the marines are
in orbit, they can land and wipe out combatants in a matter of hours,
possibly even before a large battle is over.

That's why I'm saying that there are differences between how we see these
concepts and how the Imperials might see them. A peace-keeping force in the
Imperium might be a "Sword of Damocles" type situation, where just the
knowledge that there are some real tough bastards in orbit might be enough
to set in motion treaties and peace talks and the like... Even if they
*don't* go in and destroy everything in sight.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:09:10 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Yahoo new clause

This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It 
does *not* satisfy me, sicne it still says that they have the right 
to publish what you post there.
Any comments from our resident law experts?
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO
Yahoo does not own Content you submit, unless  we specifically tell
you otherwise before you submit it. You license the Content to Yahoo
as set forth below for the purpose of displaying  and distributing
such Content on our network of properties and for the promotion and 
marketing of our services. By submitting  Content to any Yahoo 
property, you automatically grant, or warrant that the owner of such 
Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the royalty-free, perpetual, 
irrevocable,  non-exclusive and fully sublicensable right and license 
to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create 
derivative works  from, distribute, perform and display such Content 
(in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works 
in any form,  media, or technology now known or later developed. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:17:23 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Webspace ownership on AOL

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <GypsyComet@aol.com>
>   With the Yahoo/GeoCities TOS problem getting all the attention, I
decided
> to take a second look at AOLs TOS documents. I found a distressingly
similar
> statement there, and have sent an inquiry to AOL regarding it. Depending
on
> the answer, my pages may be moving soon. I will keep you posted...


This is part of the idea behind Downport.com, in a way.  For people who
don't need to maintain a large site on a regular basis, we can host pages
that they send to us.  In some cases, where folks do have larger sites to
maintain, we can work out ftp access for them.  We are paying for space on a
server and have dedicated this domain to Traveller.  Our host has a very few
restrictions and doesn't have the luxury of trying to steal intellectual
property because they are competing for our dollars in a buyers market.

For now the site is relatively small and we are covering the costs out of
pocket and by having a tiny commercial area called The Traveller Trader
where I sell used Traveller publications and give 10% of the gross toward
site expenses.  We'd like to see the site grow to the point where we could
offer virtual domains (like "yoursite.downport.com") to people with larger
content needs and they would help with the expenses, perhaps on the order of
$25 per quarter (not sure, would depend on how many people are involved and
the relative space usage).  We have also considered the idea of trying to
attract a commercial user (game store, publisher, etc.) whose site we could
host and maintain for a fee that might subsidize the whole site.

On the other hand, there are a few TML members who own their own web servers
outright and might offer web space freely.  There is certainly room for more
than one site like Downport.com on the web.  If you know of other
Traveller-friendly sites, now would be a good time to pipe up.  Yahoo! is a
big player.  I can see the rest of the market following their precedent.

- -Colin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:28:43 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
> Yahoo! bends after GeoCities users grousing
> By Michelle Collins
[huge snip]

Check out http://come.to/boycottyahoo for the latest updates.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause

Carlos Alos-Ferrer writes:
> This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It 
> does *not* satisfy me, sicne it still says that they have the right 
> to publish what you post there.

Publish isn't the one to bitch about.  They need that one to display your web
page (putting a page on the web is publishing it).  The terms to bitch about
are 'perpetual, irrevokable' and 'modify, adapt, and create derivative works'.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:51:02 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause

At 01:20 PM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Carlos Alos-Ferrer writes:
> > This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It
> > does *not* satisfy me, sicne it still says that they have the right
> > to publish what you post there.
>
>Publish isn't the one to bitch about.  They need that one to display your web
>page (putting a page on the web is publishing it).  The terms to bitch about
>are 'perpetual, irrevokable' and 'modify, adapt, and create derivative 
>works'.

when associated with the phrase "royalty free" and "sub licensable".

From a photographers point of view, they could take any photo I have on a 
GeoCities site, and then sell it to Coca Cola for an ad, making say $2000 
and I get squat.  They could also take that photo, sell it to a marketing 
company for $0.01 and that Marketing company could take it, digitally alter 
it, and then sell it to Coke for $2000.

If the license agreement read something like:

You grant Yahoo, a royalty free, perpetual, irrevocable right to display 
your content to the Internet.  Any other use would require a separate 
license between you and Yahoo.

That would let them display the pages legally.  The problem with them and 
if you check other sites as well, they have the same terminology is they 
are trying to protect themselves from suit.  Most "Photo Club" sites use 
the exact same terminology and its wrong.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:47:09 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:00 PM
Subject: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]


>"The targeted advertising and mandatory pop-ups aren't enough for
>them," said Marcela Musgrove, a GeoCities homesteader from Chicago.
>"Now they want to take away all rights to our material? That's going a
>little too far."


Now, I can understand that this... erm... homesteader complaining about the
possibility of losing her copyrights for her own material. However, to
complain about the "targeted advertising and mandatory pop-ups" seems to be
just a bit overboard. If she doesn't like GeoCities' "free"[1] webspace,
then she could always do the research and start her own server or lease
webspace from an ISP.

[1] TANSTAAFL!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 14:18:15 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause (LONG)

> This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It 
> does *not* satisfy me, since it still says that they have the right
> to publish what you post there.
> Any comments from our resident law experts?
> Carlos Alos-Ferrer
>
> 8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO
> Yahoo does not own Content you submit, unless  we specifically tell
> you otherwise before you submit it. You license the Content to Yahoo
> as set forth below for the purpose of displaying  and distributing
> such Content on our network of properties and for the promotion and
> marketing of our services. By submitting  Content to any Yahoo
> property, you automatically grant, or warrant that the owner of such
> Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the royalty-free, perpetual,
> irrevocable,  non-exclusive and fully sublicensable right and license
> to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create
> derivative works  from, distribute, perform and display such Content
> (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works
> in any form,  media, or technology now known or later developed.
>

Read that clause above CAREFULLY.  Now they say they don't "own" your work,
they just have the perpetual right to use it as they please without paying
for it.  Perhaps I'm an idiot, but that sounds like "ownership" to me.
Better even, because they get all the benefits of ownership and none of the
liability!  (If I buy a copy of Digidesign's ProTools III, I'm most
definitely NOT allowed to reproduce it -- even after paying that company
over $5000 for it!)

As a digital audio engineer and producer at an independant label, I have
asked all my clients who have posted ANYTHING original (music, lyrics,
photos, etc.) on a Yahoo!-owned site, including Geocities, to REMOVE that
material ASAP -- if they are not willing to give up their exclusive rights
under Copyright law or their Publishing rights.  This is absolutely the
worst TOS language I've seen --  and any claim that they need 'publishing'
rights in order to allow you to put material on Geocites is a bogus,
unsubtle grab for hard-to-come-by original content for free.  What happens
to an artist or band who may later get signed onto a major?  Major labels
require an exclusive contract with the artist(s) for rights to mechanically
reproduce, promote and distribute that artists' material -- including photos
or other likenesses of the artist(s).  They are NOT going to like the fact
that the original material they are paying for can be reproduced at will by
Yahoo! due a previous contract that is "irrevocable" and "royalty-free."  If
a songwriter wishes to receive 'mechanical' royalties or 'synchronization'
royalties, to say nothing of basic Publishing rights for his/her/their work,
then they need to avoid this kind of TOS agreement like the plague.  This
goes the same for graphic/multimedia artists.  Their professional future may
very well be compromised by such an agreement.  No joke at all.

Hell, Yahoo! may one day decide to release CDs for sale -- without bothering
to ask permission of the authors/performers of such material, and without
paying them a dime, no matter how much Yahoo! makes out if it.  This is
beyond the pale.  And completely consistent with the language of their TOS
agreement.

I've been dealing with record labels for 15 years, and I've seen every trick
in the book attempting to strip an author of their rights so as to increase
the profits of the label.  What Yahoo! is doing now is an extremely serious
issue with many in the music industry -- I'm certain that other
industries/communities are talking about it as well, it's just that I follow
music industry newsgroups and mailing lists on a regular basis.

Another major concern that I've been hearing is "What if other
businesses/labels take a cue from Yahoo!?"  Which isn't unlikely if people
continue to *accept* this assault!  There needs to be a LOT more hue and cry
against this sort of thing, or -- before you know it -- this will become the
standard.  The 'laws' of the biz are similar to the laws of nature:  the
shortest, quickest path to increasing the bank accounts of major companies
is *always* the chosen path.  Yahoo's draconian contract is a seriously
damaging step backwards for artists.  It reminds me of the days when music
acts had to give up their claim to any exclusive publishing ownership of
their material in order to get a record contract.  They got paid an
insulting percentage in royalties and maybe a new Cadillac ragtop to appease
them.  If you are not only the performer --  but the 'author' -- of original
material, then you are entitled to 50% of the Publishing proceeds paid to
the label every time a copy of your CD gets sold or one of your songs gets
synched to video -- in addition to the usual 5-8% of the *net* profit from
the sale of that material.

That new convertible they bought you is fine with a label that will be
receiving 100 times that in profits from the sale of your songs.  Thing is,
with Yahoo!, you don't even get the Cadillac!  The only reason it isn't
outright theft is that you DO NOT have to put anything on their sites, or
deal with them at all, unless you are incredibly generous or stupid.

BOYCOTT YAHOO! until they cease and desist their war against original
authorship!


"This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around!"
- --David Byrne

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 14:23:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 
> Carlos Alos-Ferrer writes:
> > This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It
> > does *not* satisfy me, sicne it still says that they have the right
> > to publish what you post there.
> 
> Publish isn't the one to bitch about.  They need that one to display your web
> page (putting a page on the web is publishing it).  The terms to bitch about
> are 'perpetual, irrevokable' and 'modify, adapt, and create derivative works'.


That and the "...to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or
technology now known or later developed." bit...

For instance, you post your snifty shareware (or freeware) program,
Traveller supplement, whatever, on yahoocities. 

They can, per this agreement, sell ('distribute') the program on a 'Best
of Yahoo' collection, with your name erased ('modify' or 'derivative
work', take your pick), on a CD or book they sell in bookstores ('...any
form, media, or technology') and keep all the profits.

This doesn't mean they _intend_ to do that, but we all know about the
paving of certain roads with good intentions...

What they _still_ don't get, apparently, is that new clause they
inserted doesn't change, and in fact, is directly contradicted by the
vastly over-reaching assignment of rights they have in the assignment of
licensing statement.

If all they want is to advertise themselves using your work as an
example of "the Best of Yahoo" and be able to distribute material to
various mirror sites so they can manage server loads, why doesn't their
licencing clause just state that, plain and simple? Why the endless
right to do anything they want, in any medium? That's just legal
overkill.

ObTrav. Hmmm....maybe Yahoo's legal staff is ex-IM, and they were
ordered to 'secure these contracts' ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:43:12 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

One of the things that is being pointed out here at work is that Yahoo is
taking the same position as a *publisher*, with regard to the ownership of
the material on their site.  This, however, may legally leave them in the
same position as a publisher with regard to libel/defamation lawsuits, not
to mention opening them up with regard to copyright infringement for
unauthorized use of graphics, software piracy, and the myriad pornography
issues.

I'm really not quite sure how they intend to protect themselves.

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:00 PM
> Subject: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
>
>
> >"The targeted advertising and mandatory pop-ups aren't enough for
>
> >them," said Marcela Musgrove, a GeoCities homesteader from Chicago.
>
> >"Now they want to take away all rights to our material? That's going a
>
> >little too far."
>
>
> Now, I can understand that this... erm... homesteader complaining about the
> possibility of losing her copyrights for her own material. However, to
> complain about the "targeted advertising and mandatory pop-ups" seems to be
> just a bit overboard. If she doesn't like GeoCities' "free"[1] webspace,
> then she could always do the research and start her own server or lease
> webspace from an ISP.
>
> [1] TANSTAAFL!
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:40:26 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Batledress, Hoorah!

Was written:

>The last thing I want is a power suit is some person who has done minimal
>training or had little combat experience. I want someone who knows what a
>shooting war is, knows how to survive a shooting war, and be able to use
>the force multiplier available to him with the PA to make sure the other
>person dies for his king/country/corperation/religion.


A good recent analogue of this would be that, if my sources are correct, the
Brits put seasoned veteran pilots in Harriers when they were introduced.
The USMC originally put hot young pilots in the cockpits of theirs and their
training loss rate was much higher.

Dad is one of the "Cold Guard" and retired after his 20 in 1968.  I can
still remember sitting on the riding mower mowing the parent's front yard,
it's across the road from Camp Lejeune, when a pair of Harriers came
streaking over my head just above the tree tops.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #801
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 802



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Insulting the Marines....
RE: My take on the Army and Marines 
Re: Hexagons
Re: Imperial Marines
Re : Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long, longish)
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Yahoo new clause
Re: OT Civvie Influncecs on Forces (was Re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines
Re:TL8 Medicine
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: IM stuff
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Battle Riders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:51:04 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >> 2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
> >> general?
> >
> >I'd say that you need to check for radiation belts. Jupiter's will kill
> >you in short order. Any settelements on its moons will have to be well
> buried.
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> What are possible ways that the high-tech society of the Traveller universe
> may have figured out to combat such a problem? Are ships in the TU shielded
> against such radiation, or are there special considerations that pilots
> might have to keep in mind when skimming for fuel?

Well, superdense and higher-tech hull materials ought to provide some
radiation shielding during transit of the radiation belt, and, once
in-atmosphere, the GG's own atmosphere should also help.
> 
> Would it be possible to erect some sort of shield around a colony? In a
> crude fashion, would a dome made out of, say, lead or something similar be
> feasible?

It would be much better to use hull materials such as superdense and its
derivatives of such a dome.  Since they are (IIRC) denser than lead,
they would give more shielding per cm of thickness.  Further, their
superior rigidity would make them more capable of supporting their own
weight.
> 
> Are there other methods to defend against radiation? I'd suspect that, on a
> moon, it would be best to just dig in. How about an orbital colony or base
> though?

Place your orbital base either "beneath" or "above" the radiation belt?
> 
> Thanks though. Your response has been quite helpful.


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
***BOYCOTT MY SITE*** (Yes, I know how that sounds....<sheepish grin>)
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:00:56 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Insulting the Marines....

Terry Carlino wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Maybe. My impression is that the Marines not only have a standard black or
> camouflage
> battle dress, but also a maroon battledress for ceremonial occasions (Read
> as any time they want to stick out.) 

<<snip>>
> 
> > When not on combat deployments, they wear some sort of utility/fatigue
> > uniform.
> 
> Absolutely, and the color would, of course, be maroon.

Maroon battledress and fatigues would, of course, give the other
services yet another way to razz the Marines (in addition to the
insulting inflection of the term "I'rene" and the "Girlie Marines in
[battle] dresses"):

<Bugs Bunny voice>

What a _maroon_!

</Bugs Bunny voice>

Of course, this game is best played when the Marines in question are
inhibited (for whatever reason) from defending their honor....

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:00:27 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: My take on the Army and Marines 

>> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
>> NAUTICAL FORCE COMMAND
>>
>> Also known as the "wet navy," the NFC is found on worlds with significant
>> oceans.  Often an addition to the ground forces, the NFC is strongest on
>> balkanized worlds of moderate technology (tech 6-9) with more than fifty
>> percent hydrosphere.  In these situations, the wet navy can become the
>> dominant military force on a world or in a nation.
>
>I suspect this would still be the case at higher tech levels if Hydro
>percentages over ~95%, or if lots of the population are water dwelling
>species.  Of course, at this point it will be as 'triphibian' as anyone
>else, but it's 'natural habitat' would still be water.

How could we forget the Dolphins?  Any Imperial Army NFC worth it's salt
would have to include Dolphins, at least as a recon force. Worlds with
greater than 95% Hydro percentages would probably have a significant Dolphin
population, unless there's an indigious marine sophont population. Even
there a regiment of Dolphin Marnies or a Battalion of Dolphin IA troops
would be the best force to have.
Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:57:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Phil Kitching wrote:
> >
> >> At 21:20 24/06/1999 +0100, John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:
> >> >>I am moving stars out of the center of their
> >> >>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.
> >
> > Observation: While dinking around with hex paper and polyhedrons, I
> > noticed that apparently twenty tetrahedrons make an icosahedron, and
> > as far as I can tell this can be continued as a pattern out from each
> > exterior point making twelve more icosahedrons intersecting the
> > first, and so on.
>
> Nope. If you have enough 4 sided dice you'll find that you *cannot*
> construct an icosahedron out of tetrahedrons. There will be gaps.
> Significant ones.
>
> Tetrahedra cannot be used to "fill" space. Cubes can, and so can a
> *mix* of tetrahedra and octahedra. No other regular polyhedrons will
> "fill space".

You can also stack spheres.  They did it all the time with cannon shot.
Yes, there are gaps,  but if we make the analogy to starcharts, then each
sphere can be concidered the outer boundary of a star system, about half a
parsec out (I know that's WAY past the kuiper belt but its  the halfway mark
between adjacent systems).   Note that switching to this system for
starcharts puts 12 spheres adjacent (6 around plus 3 on top and 3 beneath)
rather than the customary 6 hexes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:12:48 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Like I've already said, I'm not sure that the marines would be expected to
>do the "hearts and minds" routine. Even if a government is *trying* to win
>the hearts and minds of a population, not every branch of the armed services
>will be handing out candy bars to little kids or helping to relocate people
>living in areas where fighting is growing more intense.

So...no more "Toys for Tots" sponsored by the Marines...

;-)

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:16:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long, longish)

Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:57:24 +1000, "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>David Summers wrote :-
><with regard to early polymer formation>
>> The key is "relatively".  This is one of the significant issues
>> in the field, particularly for amino acids.  Drying cycles is
>> one of the mechanisms that have been invoked, but it is not
>> entirely satisfactory.

>True. As Leonard Erickson has repeatedly alluded to in recent posts, the
>'catalytic clay' theory is becoming more popular. I should have spent a
>little more time going over various theories ; but this series is
>designed to stimulate idea exchange, primarily.

The catalytic clay theory may well have peaked.  The maing point,
however, is that nobody should take anyone theory as the "right"
one.  At this point they are all just stabs in the dark.

>On 'which came first' :-
>> There is evidence that amphiphiles may have formed,
>> or been delivered by meteorites, first and formed "protocells"
>> (see the posters discussion on cell membranes).  These then
>> contained reactions and may even have had catalytic effects.
>
>Do you have a reference for your last statement? I'd love to read about
>catalytic activity in fatty acids ; my (possibly misinformed) stance on
>this is that this group of compounds is unlikely to behave in such a
>way.

The catalytic activity is still bit speculative.  The main result
I know about is that people have used them to create pH gradients.

Deamer D. W. and Harang E. (1990) Light-dependent pH gradients are
generated in liposomes containing ferrocyanide. Biosystems  24, 1-4.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:18:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


>So...no more "Toys for Tots" sponsored by the Marines...
>
>;-)


Hey, 'round here one of the local toys for tots programs happens to be
sponsored by the local biker gangs! ;)

"The Pagans: winning the hearts and minds of America's youth!"

Of course, I think that the Pagans just signed a pact with one arm of the
local mafia.

The day that this was reported on the local news almost matter of factly (in
the same way they'd report a business merger), I realized the dark future
described frequently in cyberpunk books had really arrived.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:37:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

>No.  Some vehicle crew member perform spectacularly outside their vehicles
>either through training or just innate competence.  The vast majority of
>Marines if forced to fight un augmented will do a decent job of it.
>However, there is that one guy who isn't prepared for the smoke and smells
>and noise, and freezes.  It might be your company Ship's Sergeant or Force
>Lieutenant, or it might be the guy calling in your fire support.

I've lost the earlier messages, but didn't Doug say at the outset that
Out-of-BD Combat Paralysis was an _optional_ disadvantage?

As to the roles of Imperial Marines, in my interpretation of Classic
Traveller canon they have the following main roles:

1) shipboard security (best done in combat armour with light weapons)

2) base security (frontline elements in ballistic fatigues with light
weapons, reaction units in combat armour with heavier weapons)

3) assault (battle dress, really heavy weapons)

4) forward observer (combat armour or battle dress - whatever matches troop
type so they don't stand out)


As all marine units can theoretically undertake any mission, all marines
are trained in battle dress. Some units, of course, never use it outside
training and thus have relatively low skill levels (ie BD-0).

With no basis in canon whatsoever, I've also decided that enlisted marines
usually stay with their units for their career. Officers tend to stay for
long times as well, working their way up the ranks within their regiments.
(Influence of Falkenburg here, I think.)


In terms of the CoDominion universe, I translate Imperial Marines as the
Fleet branch of the CoDo Marines, with the Imperial Army acting as Line and
Garrison Marines.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:37:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

>Goodnight copyright.  Thats giving the farm away, lock, stock and barrel.
>It looks like the intention is to allow them the ability to remove troublesome
>content from their webservers, potentially a prudent move given liability
>laws that 'could' make them liable for content of those who publish on their
>with them.  But they couldn't do that without taking total control.  So
>what might have been originally intended as a legal move to protect the
>company, ends up being a wholesale transfer of copyrights.
>
>
>Essentially, they're saying that their servers are like chalkboard in
>public.  You can write what you want, but its their chalkboard,
>and they can take, sell, edit, destroy, copy, etc., anything that
>appears on their chalkboard.  You post anything at all, and you're
>giving it away.  Well, at least the issue is known.  I'd doubt they'd
>ever actual touch anything you post.  But they want the full arsenal
>available in case there ever is a problem.
>
>--
>Bloo

Um, a request for legal information here, Bloo.

What about material posted under the old agreement?  Could they legally
claim that it is now theirs, because they changed the rules?  Would they
have to leave a waiting period for people to close down their sites?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:38:22 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause

Carlos Alos-Ferrer posted:
>
>This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It 
>does *not* satisfy me, sicne it still says that they have the right 
>to publish what you post there.
>Any comments from our resident law experts?

I'm not a lawyer but it sure sounds like they can take anything
they want from any of their users' sites and sell it. 

Example: If Jesse's material was on a GeoCities/Yahoo site, he
could wake up one day to find his Traveller graphics on T-shirts
sold across the world without his knowledge and he wouldn't make a
cent. The same goes for anyone who sends him their work and he
posts it, even if _they_ don't have a website with GeoCities/Yahoo.

That's the definition of a "free" website? 

"Sure, you own your car..but I can drive it, wreck it, or sell it
at any time without your permission, without telling you I'm going
to do it, and without reimbursing you in any way. But you own your
car."

Sounds like blatant theft to me. I *was* considering setting up my
own Traveller site with GeoCities.

Not any more.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:47:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: OT Civvie Influncecs on Forces (was Re: Imperial Marines)

At 06:16 PM 30/06/1999 PST, you wrote:

>Alas, this ios being toned down. I've heard reports that DIs can no
>longer make recruits "drop and give me 50" from drop[ping their rifle.
>In fact, assigning push ups as punishment apparently requires cinsent
>of the recruit now!

Heresy! (Not you Eris) When I did Infantry OSUT a Ft. Benning back in 1984,
we got dropped for *everything* and *anything*.  We did push-ups before we
were allowed to eat, after we ate, before lights-out.. The Sunday mornings
we allegedly had a s free tyime, the Drills ran a "voluntary" PT session.
Lots of road work and endurance drills.

It worked.  Out of 200 or so trainees in my Company, only three failed the
EOCT PT test.  More than half of us scored above 200.

Hell, I got dropped for *100* after saying "damn" in front of the Senior
Drill Sergeant.

ALPHA!  SEVEN!  ONE!  INFANTRY!  ON THE ROAD!!!!

We also got smoked once for crushing Drill Sergeant Colom's brown round
hat, but that's another story...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:32:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 10:13 AM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote:

>The trend here seems to be that the IM are just a faceless bunch of baby
>killing chrome freaks with severe cases of cyberpsychosis (to mangle
>several game metaphors).

If yhay's how their enemies see them, so much the better.  The problem is
you are seeing the Iron Fist, and assuming that's all there is.  I'm not
about to post a hundred odd page book to the TML.  The Marines are the
final act, the big stick.  Their prescence is a clue that you have screwed
up, and that retribution will be coming down with the wrath of whatever
gods you hold dear.  They come after the diplomats and nobles and IISS
advisors have failed.  Like the nuclear aresenals of the US and USSR, they
were the weapons of last resort.

>Their use as indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction is jarringly
>different from their clear literary progenitors, Heinlein's Mobile
>Infantry.

That's about the eleventh time someone has said this, so let me set the
record straight:

My take on the Inperial Marines is *not* directly based on Robert A.
Heinlein's classic novel _Starship Troopers_.  The number of books and fil
influences are numerous; but the one single most important influence on my
view of the IMF is the US Army's romp through souther Iraq in 1991.  

US tankers could hit targets when the Iraqis couldn't see them, were
impervious to return fire, and dominated the field like nothing else.  By
day three of the war, entire divisions were crumbling as word reached the
troops about these unstoppable metal monsters.  

That's what the Marines are.  They are going to walk into your best troops
and decimate them, not because they are karate masters with knives in their
teeth, but because they are highly trained members of a tightly woven team
equipped with the best technology the 11,000 worlds can give them.

The only things I took directly from _Starship Troopers_ were the ranks of
Ship's Sergeant and Fleet Sergeant.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:53:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re:TL8 Medicine

At 02:24 AM 7/1/99 -0900, you wrote:

>[Apologies if this has already been covered, I am a bit
>behind on the TML.]
>
>When you say that Tl-8 medicine sucks I assume you mean in comparison
>to TL9 and higher medicine.  IIRC the cure for cancer is TL
>9 or 10 according to canon.

It sucks in that I probably went undiagnosed for up to three years, and the
treatment left me weighing 113lbs, pasty, with no short-term memory and
unable to climb a flight of stairs without gasping for breath.  Not to
mention the complete lack of usable veins in my arms for blood draws.

>However compared to _lower_ TL medicine I think that TL 8 medicine
>is wonderful.  I know that I would be dead, probably several
>times over, with TL 5 or 6 medicine.  I suspect that this is the case
>for many others as well.

Too true.  Thirty years ago Hodgkin's Lymphoma was something you died from.
 Now, it's ver survivable.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:09:01 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:

>>Just steer it clear of Star Trek's funny foreheads and odd-coloured
>>bodily fluids and I'll be happy!
> 
>Actually, the "odd colored bodily fluids" isn't that strange. Even on
>Terra we've got examples of several chemicals *other* than hemoglobin
>being used for oxygen transport. And they are all markedly colored.
 
Humanoid aliens with non-human internal arrangements I can accept
(convergent evolution handwave). And aliens that are interfertile with
humans I can (just) accept (common ancestry handwave). But aliens with
non-human internals who can interbreed with humans I refuse to take even
remotely serious. Luckily you don't have to take Star Trek seriously to
enjoy it...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Papazian  appeared,  disguised as a human being.  He
         checked  quickly  to  make sure that his head was on
         right.  'Nose  and  toes the same way goes,'  he re-
         minded himself, and that was how it was.
             All his systems were go. His psyche was soldered
         firmly to his pineal gland,  and he even had a small
         soul powered by flashlight batteries."
                                "Tripout" by Robert Sheckley

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:11:44 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: IM stuff

>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>Don't forget the biggest difference between the IA and the IM. The Imperial
>Army is made up of units raised in each Domain. If the Archduke of the
>Domain is popular these units might be a touch more loyal to him than to the
>Emperor. The IM recruit from across the Imperium. Like the Navy (which is
>also partially raised by the Domains, but is often then sent to serve in
>other sectors) the IM are a more inherently loyal force. I would expect
>Marine tradition to revolve around loyalty to the Iridium Throne, the Corps
>(the IM as a whole), and ones' comrades, with a smattering of Foreign Legion
>fatalism thrown in, while Army tradition would center on the regiment and
>the corps (COACC, Wet Navy, Armor, etc.)
>

I'm not absolutely sure about either point.

IMO the Imperial Army is a command structure for units raised on Imperial
worlds - the Imperial Army bit is the Army- or Corps- level command, but
the actual maneuver battalions are world units.

I would expect units to be loyal to their officers, as this seems to fit
the 'government by men, not laws' theme. The Corps is an idea more than
anything else, and the Iridium Throne is far away. The Old Man, on the
other hand, is someone you see every 6-12 months.

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>And like I've already said, I'm not entirely convinced that translates into
>the same thing as we're familiar with in the real world. Enforcing the
>Imperial rules of war seems to me to be something that would be decisive and
>brutal. Also, keep in mind that it doesn't say that Imperial marines are the
>*only* group that keeps the peace in the Imperium. We're running into
>another snag with differing canon views though.

It's goanna be a lot more complex IMO.

>The first criterion that is listed in the entry is "Long-term social or
>economic dislocation is suffered when a region loses its ability to carry on
>at its prewar level of economic activity."
>
>In other words, the war has become so protracted that there's no way to end
>it but by the Imperium stepping in and putting its foot down.
>

What about something like Sherman's Shennandoah Campaign, or the Free-Fire
Zones of Vietnam, or the population displacement tactics of Vietnam,
Afghanistan or the modern Balkans ?

Let us assume that we have Vietnam, except the I Corps has a ban on tactics
likely to lead to population displacement. II and III Corps dont, and have
a major refugee problem. If the Imperium declares intervention, is it total
(occupy Washington, possibly trashing it), partial (occupy Vietnam),
focussed (occupy II and III corps) or exceedingly focussed (land a force,
and say declare you are shooting down any and all air support and artillery
fire in II and III corps with the point defense weapons on the IM Grav Tanks).

>The second criterion relates to "excessive" extraplanetary interference. The
>definition is somewhat blurry. Basically, if another party is interfering in
>such a way that the first criterion will be met by their mucking about, the
>Imperium has to come in and put its foot down. This might not even mean
>influence on the planet's surface. It might mean that the Imperial marines
>take a trip to the interfering organization's world or base as a show of
>force.
>

This one is real sticky. Let us assume you pay a social call on LSP's HQ,
and they say 'OK', but then start using front orginisations to funnel money
thru to the rebels. The rebels then use this hard-to-trace cash to buy guns
off Free Traders.

>The third criterion is the possession of nuclear weapons. Individual GMs may
>change this rule to cover all "weapons of mass destruction": nuclear,
>chemical, biological and (if they're included in the campaign)
>nanotechnological.

Wave a damper over everything, and that should sort it out.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:13:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 06:12 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Like I've already said, I'm not sure that the marines would be expected to
>>do the "hearts and minds" routine. Even if a government is *trying* to win
>>the hearts and minds of a population, not every branch of the armed services
>>will be handing out candy bars to little kids or helping to relocate people
>>living in areas where fighting is growing more intense.
>
>So...no more "Toys for Tots" sponsored by the Marines...

On Terra, maybe.  

I have to wonder where I slipped up and typed "Marine recruits are sealed
into their Battledress, where they are fore-fed a diet of Prednizone,
caffeine, and Adam Sandler movies to turn them into slavering death-dogs.
If ever let out of the armor, the Marine will hide in the corner crying for
Mr. Bear, his favorite stuffed toy."

What I did say that was *combat ops* Marines will wear their Battledress.
In my day, battle gear was a steel pot, LB-40, M-17A1 gas mask, and a
M-16A1.  I did not wear this when detailed to paint the hallway outside the
Colonel's office.  I wore the uniform appropriate for the duty, as assigned
by my chain of command.  If they had told me to paint he hallway in MOPP 4,
I would have done so.

So we have our Marines doing peacekeeper duty, keeping two minorities
(let's call them Less Filing and Tastes Great) apart while the nobles and
diplomats try to find a peaceable end.  The majority of Marines in the
compound are going to be in fatigues, doing the day-to-day job of living.
Sentries will be suited up, and locked into the base sensor net.  A ready
squad might be in armor, waiting to rush out and provide cover.  The guys
who just got off sentry duty are scrubbing themselves in the shower, while
that day's KP staff are attempting to make combat rations look good.

A few miles away a Force Ensign is running a check point.  He's in field
undress, to better deal with the local police and population.  The fireteam
manning the post is in armor, as an implied threat.

So despite the Marines being ready for combat (the entire company can suit
up within five or six minutes), the majority of Marines will not be suited
up for their day to day business.
- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:16:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 06:18 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Hey, 'round here one of the local toys for tots programs happens to be
>sponsored by the local biker gangs! ;)

Out here the USMCR and the bikers (mostly Harley Owners Group folks) have
teamed up.  The annual toy ride to Sacramento is spectacular, especially
since a good part of it goes right by our building.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:28:44
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

At 06:37 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>As all marine units can theoretically undertake any mission, all marines
>are trained in battle dress. Some units, of course, never use it outside
>training and thus have relatively low skill levels (ie BD-0).

These would be the GURPS characters who just buy the basic 4 points of
Battlesuit and leav it at that.  The base DX in the template is 11, so this
gives you skill-12, which os described as "Rather skilled"

>With no basis in canon whatsoever, I've also decided that enlisted marines
>usually stay with their units for their career. Officers tend to stay for
>long times as well, working their way up the ranks within their regiments.
>(Influence of Falkenburg here, I think.)

Officers tend to branch out due to the limited opportunities for command at
higher levels.  There are only so many slots for Fleet Colonels after all!

>In terms of the CoDominion universe, I translate Imperial Marines as the
>Fleet branch of the CoDo Marines, with the Imperial Army acting as Line and
>Garrison Marines.

Pretty good comparison.  It's been years since I read Pournelle (meeting
hiom in person really turned me off his work), maybe I should dig into them
again.

On that note, a good set of reads can be found in the Starfist series.
Amazon has them at:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/generic-quicksearch-query/002-5592130-4619
433
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:38:06 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

Christopher Thrash writes:

>>From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
>>
>>How many battle riders are normally carried by a battle tender and of
>>what displacement?
> 
>Canonical examples run from three to eight riders. There are no firm
>guidelines on size, but 20,000 to 100,000 dtons is probably a good guess.
 
Also there is a hard limit of 1,000,000 dtons for any ship in CT. Whether
this means tender+riders can't exceed 1,000,000 or whether the tender alone
can't exceed that figure depends on how you interpret the rules. I myself
would say that tender and riders combined can't exceed 1,000,000 dtons, but
I admit that it's debatable. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #802
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 803



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines
Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: IM stuff
Re: Imperial Marines [long]
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Yahoo new clause
Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: IM stuff
Re: Star Trigger threat?
re: Star Trigger Threat
re: IM Stuff
Re: GURPS Traveller Ships
Re: Imperial Marines [long]
Re: Xenobiology 101

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:54:02 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines



>That's what the Marines are.  They are going to walk into your best troops
>and decimate them, not because they are karate masters with knives in their
>teeth, but because they are highly trained members of a tightly woven team
>equipped with the best technology the 11,000 worlds can give them.


That would make an excellent blurb for the Ground Troops book, or perhaps an
excellent opening to the introduction.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:59:31 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Antony Farrell writes:

>Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
>work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?

Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Kettelman bristled. Nothing got him angrier than when
         people implied that he was paranoid. It made him feel
         persecuted."
                                --Robert Sheckley

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:21:49 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

At 01:59 AM 02/07/1999 +0200, you wrote:
>Antony Farrell writes:
>
>>Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
>>work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?
>
>Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
>is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
>

        There is an interesting Star Trek graphic novel called "Debt of
Honor" which I have.  Without going into the plot, at one point, Kirk and a
Romulan captain of similar reknown discover a Klingon battleship that is
wrecked in space.  Aboard, they discover the ship is a cloak-equiped planet
buster a spinal phaser array capable of doing a "Death Star" on any
habitable world.

        The Romulan's comment is that if she reported that the ship existed
to her Command, the Romulans would go to war with the Klingons in an
instant.  It would be a genocide war with no quarter and no middle ground,
with racial survival at stake.

        I sorta view the Star Trigger as that kind of weapon.  Everyone
knows they can do it.  Fine.  Its  a great "Please Leave Us Alone... Or
Else" kind of weapon.  First time they vape another stellar nation's system
with it in aggression, their neighbours would be pouring attack fleets
across the border like a tidal wave to prevent these lunatics from every
threatening that kind of genocide again.

        JMHO.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:12:35 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- ----------
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
> Date: Wednesday, 30 June, 1999 10:16 PM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> Alas, this ios being toned down. I've heard reports that DIs can no
> longer make recruits "drop and give me 50" from drop[ping their rifle.
> In fact, assigning push ups as punishment apparently requires cinsent
> of the recruit now!
> 
> I got this from some marines griping in another newsgroup.
> 
> While it isn't confirmed, it's all too likely given the serious
> civilian/military differences. :-(
 
I'm pretty sure this isn't true.  My boss' son is just finishing boot, and 
since my boss is a retired Marine colonel, I'm sure I'd be hearing if
they'd watered down the course that far.

The DIs can't *touch* you without consent anymore, which is designed to
avoid situations where DIs were beating boots within an inch of their lives
for no apparent purpose.  A few even died at the hands of the DIs, which
was totally unacceptable.  And they can't curse at you, but it hardly
matters what they say if they use the right tone of voice.

If you want a good idea about modern Marine Corps boot, read Tom Ricks'
_Making of the Corps_  It's an interesting book, written by a Wall Street
Journal reporter who is definitely not a Marine.  Does a good job of
capturing the evolution of civilian to Marine, but also raises some
questions about what happens when the Marine Corps values and those of the 
rest of society become too disparate to reconcile.

ObTrav: Does the IM and or IN have this problem?  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> Antony Farrell writes:
> 
> >Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
> >work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?
> 
> Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
> is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?

Sub-nova level flares?  At a parsec, doubt its much more dangerous than a heavy
solar storm.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:43:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 08:12 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm pretty sure this isn't true.  My boss' son is just finishing boot, and 
>since my boss is a retired Marine colonel, I'm sure I'd be hearing if
>they'd watered down the course that far.

What is true is that recruits at Ft. Benning are now given "stress cards."
If they feel overworked, then can pull the cards and take a little time out.

<deleted several kilobytes of soldierly swearing.>

Can't wait for the little dears to try that in combat.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:44:54 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: IM stuff

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: IM stuff


<Imperial rules of war and Imperial intervention>

>It's goanna be a lot more complex IMO.


<Shrug> Maybe, maybe not. It's going to depend on many different factors.
Terrain is a big one, technological sophistication of the combatants, etc...

It's an assumption that even Mercenary makes and spells out on the very
first page:

"Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of
arms, with Imperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to
effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of
conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the
realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy
of the area to Imperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with
*speed and overwhelming force*" (Emphasis mine)

(Book 4: Mercenary, p.1, Introduction)

Now, I'm not going to presume to speak for Marc, Loren, Frank, nor any of
the earliest Traveller authors. However, it seems to me that even from the
early point when Mercenary was written (1978) that this was the intended
concept.

No. Let me rephrase that. It was essential to the creation of the Third
Imperium as we know it. Upon rereading the introduction it's obvious that
this is the rationale for why mercenary campaigns are possible at all.

Now, I know that Frank Chadwick doesn't mention the Imperial marines
specifically here. In point of fact, it would appear that the Imperium
setting had not yet matured to the level we think of it now. I cite the
following comment, from the same page: "Traveller assumes a remote
centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium),
possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to
the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all
levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm."

>What about something like Sherman's Shennandoah Campaign, or the Free-Fire
>Zones of Vietnam, or the population displacement tactics of Vietnam,
>Afghanistan or the modern Balkans ?
>
>Let us assume that we have Vietnam, except the I Corps has a ban on tactics
>likely to lead to population displacement. II and III Corps dont, and have
>a major refugee problem. If the Imperium declares intervention, is it total
>(occupy Washington, possibly trashing it), partial (occupy Vietnam),
>focussed (occupy II and III corps) or exceedingly focussed (land a force,
>and say declare you are shooting down any and all air support and artillery
>fire in II and III corps with the point defense weapons on the IM Grav
Tanks).


I'm not sure how the Imperium would react to such a situation... or if it
would, in fact, actually be a violation of the Imperial rules of war.

>This one is real sticky. Let us assume you pay a social call on LSP's HQ,
>and they say 'OK', but then start using front orginisations to funnel money
>thru to the rebels. The rebels then use this hard-to-trace cash to buy guns
>off Free Traders.


How are those free traders getting through? A world *is* a big place, but
not when you have naval vessels in space prepared for such a contingency.
Only lucky free traders would manage to get through without being turned
away and / or boarded.

>>The third criterion is the possession of nuclear weapons. Individual GMs
may
>>change this rule to cover all "weapons of mass destruction": nuclear,
>>chemical, biological and (if they're included in the campaign)
>>nanotechnological.
>
>Wave a damper over everything, and that should sort it out.


Of course, it depends on the situation. Traveller was originally designed in
the late 70s, when the threat of nuclear war was the real kicker that
everyone was worried about. Advances and the easy availability of other
"weapons of mass destruction" might require us to broaden the scope from
nuclear weapons (wave a damper over it) to any weapon of mass destruction
that is intended to be used as a last resort.

However, simply waving a damper over the area doesn't have the psychological
effect of dropping Imperial marines to the surface spewing plasma and death.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:48:03 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [long]

>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:57:50 -0400
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>However, by the time the Imperial forces show up, I would imagine that the
>war has been going on for a goodly amount of time. You're making the
>assumption that in all cases it will be a Vietnam-type situation where it's
>difficult to tell the good guys from the bad guys. 

Yes, I am. As I said at the outset, if the sides are clearly identifiable
(a WWI-type conflict) I am reasonably convinced the Imperial Marines can
handle whatever comes their way.

But Vietnam is only one example of a type of conflict that is far more
common than open warfare, and just as destructive in the long run.

>In some cases, for
>example, destroying offworld supply lines from an interfering party might be
>appropriate, or dropping marines into the heat of battle to eliminate both
>sides in a conflict.

You are assuming in turn that there are identifiable "supply lines"
separate from  everyday trade and commerce, or that there is a "heat of
battle" into which to drop.

>There are many other methods that don't rely on what our late 20th century
>view of peace-keeping and police actions are.

In the last century, the US (to cite one example) has been involved in
about 70 identifiable "conflicts", but only 7 "real" wars (counting Korea,
Vietnam, and Panama). Participation in the "UN School" of peacekeeping is a
recent phenomenon; the vast majority of these were unilateral actions
undertaken for reasons of national interest or policy. So I, at least, am
not relying on the "white truck/blue beret" approach.

>Of course, the Imperial rules of war seem to imply that once the trade and
>manufacturing infrastructures are destroyed on a planet it's time to bring
>in the guys in powered armor and end the war.

This is also what triggered the US interventions in Haiti (twice), the
Dominican Republic (twice), Nicaragua, and Lebanon (twice). Note that none
of these were originally under the auspices of the UN.

>I'm still not sure I can understand what cooperation the marines need to
>enforce the Imperial rules of war. As far as peace-keeping, I'm still not
>convinced that it's the same concept we know here on late 20th century
>Terra.

Look at it this way: no matter how you go about "keeping the peace", sooner
or later you're going to leave and turn the situation back over to the
natives. If all you did was make them hate you more than they hate each
other, then as soon as you are gone they will quite happily go back to
slaughtering one another -- cf. Yugoslavia. To keep from having to come
back in one year or ten and do it all over again, it is necessary to
address the real causes. 

Similarly, no "excessive extraplanetary interest" worthy of the name is
going to be easy to find, much less prove. Considering the influence that
megacorporations wield in the Imperium, I'd say some sort of proof is a
prerequisite for taking decisive action.

I don't know -- if every conflict goes on long enough to send in the Army,
then perhaps all the Marines need do is suppress everyone without
understanding the situation. That is a recipe for disaster, however, in
that it leaves the Marines open to manipulation by all sides. It also
precludes quick resolutions, even in relatively simple matters, because the
Marines can't be expected to use any diplomatic tact at all. That seems
unnecessarily restrictive, and goes back to my "blunt instrument" comment:

"To a man with only a hammer, all problems look like nails."

>I don't believe I ever said that I think the Imperial marines come in and
>destroy whole cities. I did say that I think they would be dropped to use
>overwhelming force. However, such force is applied surgically. I never said
>that they indiscriminately murder every man woman and child.

You are not the only party to this debate, however. Doug Berry, with his
proposed disregard for collateral damage, has said (in essence) just that.
If nothing else, you have argued that there is no need to enlist the help
or understanding (or even avoid alienating) the natives, on the strength
that the Marines can overcome any possible resistance. I consider this
obtuse, to say the least.

>Remember, Imperial marines can be dropped just about anywhere on a planet in
>a very short time, if their "mothership" is in orbit. ... If the marines are
>in orbit, they can land and wipe out combatants in a matter of hours,
>possibly even before a large battle is over.

If there *is* a large battle, I agree 100%. But if the Marines are dropping
into a Northern Ireland gone bad? Sure, they would have no trouble picking
out the British Army -- but are those really the guys they _need_ to find,
even just to put an end to the immediate fighting? This is a much more
likely scenario than a stand-up fight.

>A peace-keeping force in the
>Imperium might be a "Sword of Damocles" type situation, where just the
>knowledge that there are some real tough bastards in orbit might be enough
>to set in motion treaties and peace talks and the like... Even if they
>*don't* go in and destroy everything in sight.

And if the local pooh-bah's name is Kim Il-Sung? or Saddam Hussein? or
Mu'ammar al-Qadhafi? Not everyone is equally impressed with threats, and
_all_ wars result from a miscalculation on somebody's part.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:02:29 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

At 02:08 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Robert O'Connor wrote:
>> 
>> Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien building?
>> I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and physiology.
>> Thad Coons posted some stuff a little ways back about pre-biotic
>> chemistry ; Ian 'Peez' Ferguson can keep us honest if he has the
time.
>> 
>> Robert O'Connor
>> Medico, Gamer
>
>in a 1964 issue of "Galaxy" magazine, there is an awesome article on
>Xeno-biology.  Wish I still had it..

	Hmmm ... in about a week and a half, I get my household goods
delivered. Including my Dad's collection of books--containing among
other things "If," "Galaxy," "Analog," "Amazing Stories," etc. dating
back to late 50's, early 60's.

	Remind me in two weeks and I'll try to look for that issue. No, you
may NOT have it. But I'll think about reading it to you ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:02:27 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause

At 05:38 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Carlos Alos-Ferrer posted:
>>
>>This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It 
>>does *not* satisfy me, sicne it still says that they have the right

>>to publish what you post there.

	Boy, this fuss about the yahoodlums frightened me into checking my
own ISP's TOS. Quite reasonable, seems to accomplish everything the
Yahoodlums *claim* they need to do without in any way trying to grab
other people's property. Phew!

	'Course, I pay for my service ... 
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:59:26 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, I can understand that this... erm... homesteader complaining about the
possibility of losing her copyrights for her own material. However, to
complain about the "targeted advertising and mandatory pop-ups" seems to be
just a bit overboard. If she doesn't like GeoCities' "free"[1] webspace,
then she could always do the research and start her own server or lease
webspace from an ISP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It was a borderline complaint, IMO. My take on this was, "The popups
and targeted advertising *should have been enough* for them". The
complaint wasn't against the original TOS, but the IP-threatening 
clauses in the new TOS.

Of course, I have heard homesteaders complaining about Geocities...
something about the ads, labels and popups becoming gradually more
strident as time (and policy) went by. It's never that the ads are too much
when you join - it's that soon after you join, everything goes up a notch
or two.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:03:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: IM stuff

At 08:44 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:


>>What about something like Sherman's Shennandoah Campaign, or the Free-Fire
>>Zones of Vietnam, or the population displacement tactics of Vietnam,
>>Afghanistan or the modern Balkans ?
>>
>>Let us assume that we have Vietnam, except the I Corps has a ban on tactics
>>likely to lead to population displacement. II and III Corps dont, and have
>>a major refugee problem. If the Imperium declares intervention, is it total
>>(occupy Washington, possibly trashing it), partial (occupy Vietnam),
>>focussed (occupy II and III corps) or exceedingly focussed (land a force,
>>and say declare you are shooting down any and all air support and artillery
>>fire in II and III corps with the point defense weapons on the IM Grav
>Tanks).

What will probably happen is the Marines will land to deal with the
immediate problem (the displacement of civilians.) They will put a stop to
this by whatever means deemed necessary by the Task Force Commander.  Once
the situation stabilizes, then investigations can begin into who is to
blame for the problem.  If necesary the Marines, now replaced by Army
troops for a long term partition, can whomp all over Washington and take
Tricky Dick and Kissinger out.

>I'm not sure how the Imperium would react to such a situation... or if it
>would, in fact, actually be a violation of the Imperial rules of war.
>
>>This one is real sticky. Let us assume you pay a social call on LSP's HQ,
>>and they say 'OK', but then start using front orginisations to funnel money
>>thru to the rebels. The rebels then use this hard-to-trace cash to buy guns
>>off Free Traders.

This one's also a great adventure possibility, and I may steal it.  After
twenty-odd years of "sneaking past the blockade adventures, you *are* the
blockade!

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 19:57:32 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Antony Farrell writes:
>
> >Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
> >work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?
>
> Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
> is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
>
>       Hans Rancke
> University of Copenhagen
>      rancke@diku.dk
> ------------
>         "Kettelman bristled. Nothing got him angrier than when
>          people implied that he was paranoid. It made him feel
>          persecuted."
>                                 --Robert Sheckley

When did the darians actually get the thing working?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Big eyed Anime grin.


        Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:15:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Star Trigger Threat

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
>work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?

Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
>>>>>>>>>>>
IRC, the Darrians went to a lot of trouble to keep the details of the
Star Trigger to themselves. If all you know is, "Darrians can blow up
stars" - and you don't know what the limits on this capability are - you're
more likely to tread carefully around them. This is exactly what the 
Darrians want out of the deal.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:27:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: IM Stuff

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's an assumption that even Mercenary makes and spells out on the very
first page:

<snip>
(Book 4: Mercenary, p.1, Introduction)
<snip>

No. Let me rephrase that. It was essential to the creation of the Third
Imperium as we know it. Upon rereading the introduction it's obvious that
this is the rationale for why mercenary campaigns are possible at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>
That does make some sense - smaller-scale, lower-threat activities I've 
been envisioning Marines doing might be more usually done by
Mercenary groups and such. It doesn't quite explain the relative rarity
of Battle Dress skill amongst Marines (from Book 4), but I suppose it's
no big deal to assign Battle Dress-0 to *active duty* Marines - assume
that most Marines just *wear* the suit (the BD-0 troopies), and thus
quickly forget the tricks when they're no longer wearing it regularly,
while some (BD-1+ troopies) really got the knack for it - where others
are just wearing it, these guys are living it.

Chris again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>
Of course, it depends on the situation. Traveller was originally designed in
the late 70s, when the threat of nuclear war was the real kicker that
everyone was worried about. Advances and the easy availability of other
"weapons of mass destruction" might require us to broaden the scope from
nuclear weapons (wave a damper over it) to any weapon of mass destruction
that is intended to be used as a last resort.

However, simply waving a damper over the area doesn't have the psychological
effect of dropping Imperial marines to the surface spewing plasma and death.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Can you crank up a Nuclear Dampener to *set off* nuclear weapons?

Imagine the psychological effect of that Navy Destroyer finding your
hidden cache of nukes by blowing them up.... ;-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:34:05 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Ships

Dear Mr. Bont,

I believe I have found a small bug with your Traveller Ships software. The
complexity of bridges, especially non-standard bridges, does not seem to be
computing correctly. After designing a custom bridge and saving it into the
repository, I went to install software. Unfortunately, even a complexity 5
program exclaimed it was in error by exceeding  available space by 5000%.
The bridge in question was designed at GTL-13 with a complexity of 11.
Previous versions of your program handles this problem well, so what happened?

Otherwise, I am very pleased with this program to date. Keep up the good work.

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:54:01 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [long]

At 06:48 PM 01/07/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>>A peace-keeping force in the
>>Imperium might be a "Sword of Damocles" type situation, where just the
>>knowledge that there are some real tough bastards in orbit might be enough
>>to set in motion treaties and peace talks and the like... Even if they
>>*don't* go in and destroy everything in sight.
>
>And if the local pooh-bah's name is Kim Il-Sung? or Saddam Hussein? or
>Mu'ammar al-Qadhafi? Not everyone is equally impressed with threats, and
>_all_ wars result from a miscalculation on somebody's part.
>

        Hi, Chris!
        Just wanted to comment on this last little bit.  The problem with
these dictators is that they know that there is a un-written ROE amongst
nations that says "no assassinating the other guy's President".  On Earth,
RealLife(tm) say the US picked off and did so overtly (or even covert and
the only the espionage community knew about it), say Saddam, as a method of
disposing of the threat.  That immediatley puts the US president in the
firing line;  as has been proven at least twice in the 20th Century...  the
Bad Guy will get through security.
        So "we don't do that".
        They know this.  This affects how seriously they take the sabre
rattling...  its just the peasants who are going to suffer, not them.
They'll have lights,oil, food and medicine, even if thier subjects don't.
So, they can ignore us.
        Remember the F-111 raid over Libya?  Heard anything from al-Qadhafi
since?  Nope.  They almost killed him...  He got the message.  He didn't try
a serious reprisal against the US, because he knew they'd get it right the
second time.

        In the 3i, the Marines will get it right the first time. Some Duke's
cousin's fourth son doesn't have an inheritance, and y'know, that little
world just might be the right opportunity for him to show his stuff.  So,
yeah, if the local dictator doesn't catch on and play nice, make sure that
he "gets dealt with" when the drop capsules start touching down in the capital.
        Is yon petty dictator going to threaten to off the sub-sector duke
if he gets sniped at?  Not a hope.  He'll hear the Marines are coming, and
realize the quickest way to hang onto power is to meet the troop carrier in
orbit with his yacht and open the starport to them.  And be the first to the
barganing table so that the noble sent with the troop ship to mediate feels
that he's not the problem.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 19:52:45 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

At 02:46 PM 6/30/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce *female*
>offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother doesn't have
>any Y chromosomes). 
>

<<<Digging up a six year old conversation on the science of Jurassic Park>>>

Actually, the Y chromosome coding for males is limited to mammals. Reptiles
and birds code for sex using different chromosome pairs and other
variables. Some examples, the sex distribution of a clutch of sea turtle
eggs can be predicted before they are born if you know the temperature
history history of the nest. If it's in a colder environment, the eggs will
turn male, warmer, female. In certain species of birds, paired identical
chromosomes lead to male offspring, paired non-identical chromosomes lead
to female offspring. In these cases, Parthogenesis does lead to male
offspring.





Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #803
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 804



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: GURPS Traveller Ships
Re: Star Trigger threat?
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Yahoo new clause (LONG)
Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Star Trigger threat? 
Re: Yahoo new clause
Re: GURPS Traveller Ships
'nother small update
Book 4: Mercenary, spirit of the law vs. letter of the law...
IM / BD, mini's
Re: Spaceship models
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:57:01 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

Still days behind :^)

>>But green?  That will clash with the maroon dress uniform (not that I'm
>>a fan of that either, but I think its time to call a fashion consultant.
>>Things are getting ugly).  ;-)
>
>If I'm allowed, I'm changing the uniform color to dark gray with maroon
>highlights.

I would suggest a reasonable range of uniforms.

1. Dress Maroons (with an additional dinner dress tie and tails version for
officers and senior NCO's). The uniform a Marine is most likely to wear a
**Dress** Cutlass with.  Full Dress Maroons mean ribbons and medals and
definitely include cutlass and side arm.
2. Utility uniform. Grey with maroon highlights. Fatigues. What a Marine
would wear while aboard ship or while servicing his BD.  Has lots of pockets
and an equipment belt for stuff.
3. Combat armor. Used where BD is too much. Typically worn for low key
roles, like Embassy duty or by Officers on Starport duty, with a few Marines
in BD for muscle. Typically chameleon cloth, Grey with maroon highlights
when in neutral.
4. Battle Dress. see GT:SM p61.
5. Battle Dress Maroons. Worn by Marines assigned to the Imperial Guard.
Worn by Marines anywhere engaged in policing and guarding duties where they
need to inspire awe as well as kick ass.  The cutlass worn with this uniform
is definitely not just for show.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:37:26 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

- ----------
> From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
> To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
> Date: Thursday, 01 July, 1999 9:57 PM
> I would suggest a reasonable range of uniforms.
> 
[snip]  

I know it's forbidden cannon, but Traveller Digest did an article on
"Uniforms of the Terran Occupation," which is all Marine and very long
term. If it's possible not to contradict that source, it would be nice.  

> 3. Combat armor. Used where BD is too much. 

I'd suggest this should be a Combat Environment Suit, possibly with
clamshell torso armor.  There's too much overlap between real "Combat
Armor" and BD; both are sealed, spacesuit types of armor.  A trooper in CES
with a conventional open helmet will be a lot more approachable.  That can
be a good thing in lots of low intensity conflicts.

> 4. Battle Dress. see GT:SM p61.

No, no, a thousand times no.  This particular battledress is an
abomination, preferably never to be mentioned again. It's too big, too
fast, and too heavily armored to be any fun at all.  The stock BD in GT or
possibly an uprated TL12 version would be perfectly sufficient.  I'd just
as soon not have Vehicles-style stats for it or only minimal ones, not the
full write-up they did for the commando-BD in Star Mercs.  

> 5. Battle Dress Maroons. Worn by Marines assigned to the Imperial Guard.
> Worn by Marines anywhere engaged in policing and guarding duties where
they
> need to inspire awe as well as kick ass.  The cutlass worn with this
uniform
> is definitely not just for show.

I'd say that the chameleon circuit in the standard BD should be tunable to
maroon for dress occasions.  DGP did something along those lines, but it's
such an obvious idea that it's hard not to include.

And let me second the request for hyperdense cutlasses. When driven by
powered armor strength, they can go through battledress reliably and safely
(for friendly forces, that is) Marines don't even necessarily have to have
two blades, since a ST 11 person can, just barely, wield a hyperdense
cutlass.  Interchangeable fittings, a fancy guard, scabbard, and swordknot
for dress occasions, would be a lot cheaper.

Tom Schoene


Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:44:21 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>1.  Everyone is judging this based on a *single* proposed disad that
would
>be *available*, not mandatory for Marine characters.

Not everyone, I actually like the disad for those who have only seen
battle will in BD or CA (which could apply to 90% of MTU marines).

>2.  The mandatory investment in Battlesuit takes up 1.4% of the average
>character's pool of points at character generation.  The total package of
>skills and advantages costs about 80 points, and has many options built in.
> This leaves about 60 points for customizing your character to your heart's
>content.

This is closer to my complaint.  NO Previous version of Traveller has
manditory BD skill for marines in character generation.  And if all
marines use BD every time they go into combat, more would have BD skill
upon mustering out (Check, one suit of Battledress.  Check, one Fusion
Gun. And check, BD skill. All issued property has been returned, have a
good retirement Marine.)

What does this level of skill equate to in the other versions of
Traveller(CT, MT, TNE, and T4).

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:19:05 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Ships

Oops. My last email was sent to the list by mistake. Please, forgive the
unintentional error.

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:17:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
.
>        I sorta view the Star Trigger as that kind of weapon.  Everyone
>knows they can do it.  Fine.  Its  a great "Please Leave Us Alone... Or
>Else" kind of weapon.  First time they vape another stellar nation's system
>with it in aggression, their neighbours would be pouring attack fleets
>across the border like a tidal wave to prevent these lunatics from every
>threatening that kind of genocide again.

  Ya gotta respect them for having the nerve to test it on their own 
primary first, though :>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:17:47 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:43:25, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>What is true is that recruits at Ft. Benning are now given "stress cards."
>If they feel overworked, they can pull the cards and take a little time out.
>
><deleted several kilobytes of soldierly swearing.>
>
>Can't wait for the little dears to try that in combat.

Murphy's Law of Combat N+1:

The enemy doesn't play with safewords.



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 01:27:14 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause (LONG)

The important addition is:
"for the purpose of displaying  and distributing such Content on our network
of properties and for the promotion and marketing of our services."

It is a good change and protects the you as poster/publisher.  If they
use any of your Intellectual property for other purposes, you can sue them
for infringement.

The line about ownership is simply "plain" language for those not
savvy with copyright law.  The original term didn't transfer ownership.
The current one doesn't either.  Although it does transfer all the same
rights as the owner, it is "non-exclusive", meaning the owner doesn't
give up any rights.  If it was ownership, you'd lose all rights you had
to material as soon as you posted it.  Sure, its a fine point, but literally
speaking, it doesn't restrict your rights as owner.  This is a "six and one
half dozen" issue.


Justice Hypercleats wrote:

> > This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It
> > does *not* satisfy me, since it still says that they have the right
> > to publish what you post there.

Without the right to publish the material, as has been said elsewhere,
they couldn't let anyone view your pages.  They would be left as nothing
more than a file-storage place for you.

[snips here and throughout]

> Hell, Yahoo! may one day decide to release CDs for sale -- without bothering
> to ask permission of the authors/performers of such material, and without
> paying them a dime, no matter how much Yahoo! makes out if it.  This is
> beyond the pale.  And completely consistent with the language of their TOS
> agreement.

The TOS is an agreement.  You post a webpage, you agree to the terms.
This is an implied contract, the requirements of which are fulfilled by
the performance of the parties.  You post, you give permission.
As long as you have notice of this, there is no problem, legally
speaking.


> Another major concern that I've been hearing is "What if other
> businesses/labels take a cue from Yahoo!?"

Actually, its Yahoo who has been taking a cue from many other ISPs.
Check yours to make sure you haven't already agreed to similar
terms.  Yahoo is catching the hell for terms that many other ISPs use.

> BOYCOTT YAHOO! until they cease and desist their war against original
> authorship!

Check with other free web publishers before you start boycotting.
You may be left all alone, since yahoo didn't invent these terms.
And once you know, its caveat emptor, buyer beware, foretold is forewarned,
etc.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 01:32:19 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> One of the things that is being pointed out here at work is that Yahoo is
> taking the same position as a *publisher*, with regard to the ownership of
> the material on their site.  This, however, may legally leave them in the
> same position as a publisher with regard to libel/defamation lawsuits, not
> to mention opening them up with regard to copyright infringement for
> unauthorized use of graphics, software piracy, and the myriad pornography
> issues.
>
> I'm really not quite sure how they intend to protect themselves.
>
> douglas

Exactly.  By gaining full rights to edit webpages, which may
create legal liability, they have the authority to remedy any
problem situation immediately.  Which will often be all that
complaintants want.  Also, it gives them the authority to
deal with "borderline" material which isn't clearly illegal
but is problematic.  Earlier, I gave the example of "how
to make a pipe bomb"  vs. "combustive chemical reactions"
pages.  They might well contain the same material.  It might
be protected by the First Amendment.  But Geocities/Yahoo
doesn't have to let it exist on webpages that they maintain.
If you accept the agreement and publish such material on
their site, they can edit it or remove it.  Thats the ticket you
buy when you publish with them.  Want your full rights?
Publish elsewhere.  They're not the government and you
have other outlets.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 01:36:33 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Robert Prior wrote:

> Um, a request for legal information here, Bloo.
>
> What about material posted under the old agreement?  Could they legally
> claim that it is now theirs, because they changed the rules?  Would they
> have to leave a waiting period for people to close down their sites?

The old agreement is binding until both parties agree to the new one.

They made a clarification today, that loggin in to remove your
pages, etc., didn't equate to acceptance of the old terms.  IIRC,
someone else said that there was still an easy way to access Geocity pages
without agreeing to the new terms.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 01:34:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? 

> >From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> >Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
> ...
> >        I sorta view the Star Trigger as that kind of weapon.  Everyone
> >knows they can do it.  Fine.  Its  a great "Please Leave Us Alone... Or
> >Else" kind of weapon.  First time they vape another stellar nation's system
> >with it in aggression, their neighbours would be pouring attack fleets
> >across the border like a tidal wave to prevent these lunatics from every
> >threatening that kind of genocide again.
> 
>   Ya gotta respect them for having the nerve to test it on their own 
> primary first, though :>

Uh, that's how they figgered out how to *build* one.  It was an accidental 
discovery.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 01:38:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> Sounds like blatant theft to me. I *was* considering setting up my
> own Traveller site with GeoCities.
>
> Not any more.

Theft is the conversion of property to which you have no legal
right.  They have legal rights derived from the contract that you
agree to when you accept the deal.  As long as there is notice
of the terms, there is no legal problem.

Its a contract.  Fail to read the terms at your own peril.
Agree to them, and you can't complain.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:41:18 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Ships

> I believe I have found a small bug with your Traveller Ships software. The
> complexity of bridges, especially non-standard bridges, does not seem to be
> computing correctly. After designing a custom bridge and saving it into the
> repository, I went to install software. Unfortunately, even a complexity 5
> program exclaimed it was in error by exceeding  available space by 5000%.
> The bridge in question was designed at GTL-13 with a complexity of 11.
> Previous versions of your program handles this problem well, so what happened?
> 
> Otherwise, I am very pleased with this program to date. Keep up the good work.

I believe the problem here is not checking the Main System 
checkbox for your bridge.  If this checkbox isn't checked then the 
program doesn't know where to find the stats for the main computer. 

All systems that are installed as a "Main System" should have this 
checkbox checked.

If you are still having problems, send me your Repository file and 
ship file.  I'll figure out what happened.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:16:21 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: 'nother small update

I created a ship picture especially for the TML.  This one was only just
created and will not be published by SJG.  I've been playing with some new
planet textures :)

BTW, there isn't a link on the gallery page.  You have to go to the News
section for it.  There's also a little Jedi cartoon there that I created at
BayCon :)  I may have another one up on tomorrow (Friday) if I have a chance
to get to the scanner.

Enjoy.

Jesse
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:02:55 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Book 4: Mercenary, spirit of the law vs. letter of the law...

Note: This is a sort of "dual response" to both Walter Smith and Charles R.
Hensley. They both raise an issue that's been central to this debate, and
should be of interest to those that have been following the discussion:

This also might be of interest to The Roc as well, as he claimed that B4:M
supported the idea that battle dress and battle dress skill was assumed to
be quite rare according to CT canon as set forth in B4:M.

Walter Smith said:

>Mercenary groups and such. It doesn't quite explain the relative rarity
>of Battle Dress skill amongst Marines (from Book 4), but I suppose it's
>no big deal to assign Battle Dress-0 to *active duty* Marines - assume
>that most Marines just *wear* the suit (the BD-0 troopies), and thus


While Charles said:

>This is closer to my complaint.  NO Previous version of Traveller has
>manditory BD skill for marines in character generation.  And if all
>marines use BD every time they go into combat, more would have BD skill
>upon mustering out (Check, one suit of Battledress.  Check, one Fusion
>Gun. And check, BD skill. All issued property has been returned, have a
>good retirement Marine.)

On one hand, yes, no previous version of Traveller chargen forces marines to
have battle dress, there are some things that we need to keep in mind:

1.) B4:M was designed to be a resource book for mercenary campaigns. It's
not a resource book for active duty soldiers.

2.) The Imperium as set forth in B4:M was quite different than the one we
have now. I've skimmed through the book and nowhere does it seem to indicate
that the rules are designed to create ex-*Imperial* marines. Just
ex-marines, which is an important distinction. For example, according to
B4:M's chargen, a character cannot receive skill in battle dress *at all* if
their homeworld is not CTTL-12. Keep in mind that when Mercenary came out
Traveller was still a "generic" space game, just like (A)D&D was a generic
swords & spells game. There were certain *assumptions* in both games, but
they were still intended to be more or less generic. I'd welcome a
correction from Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick or Loren Wiseman, but I don't
think I'm too far off base here. So, the character creation systems were
purposefully somewhat "generic."

To some extent, the early Traveller books had to cross over certain lines.
Think about how *little* source material covering the Imperium existed for
Trav by the time that B4:M came out. If you don't believe that the
prevailing attitude was different, check out Andy Slack's excellent
"Backdrop of Stars" and the advice he gives in that article. (Note: Andy
just moved his page, http://www.halfwaystation.freeserve.co.uk/ is the new
address, I'm not sure if he has it up there).

In my humble opinion, and others may differ on this point, the important
point is retaining the *spirit* of Classic Traveller canon, not the
specifics.

If anyone wants to see the relative rarity of skills, please take a look at
the MOS table on p. 6, under the Marine column. Please note that, with the
exception of the level in gun combat received during basic, if your
homeworld is CTTL-12+ you're exactly as likely to get "Gun Cmbt" as you are
to get "Battle dress." You also have a 1 in 6 chance to get heavy weapons.

In fact, let's look at the averages:

CTTL-11- Infantry: 4 in 6 chance of getting a weapon skill. 4 Snake Eater
points.
CTTL-12+ Infantry: 3 in 6 chance of getting a weapon skill. 3 Snake Eater
points.
CTTL-11- Marine: 3 in 6 chance of getting a weapon skill. 3 Snake Eater
points.
CTTL-12+ Marine: 2 in 6 chance of getting a weapon skill. 2 Snake Eater
points.

(Note: Marines and Infantry both get a point in Gun Cmbt.)

It's interesting to look at it that way. In fact, it almost seems a waste to
play a high-tech marine, except of course that you get a 1 in 6 chance of
getting Battle Dress.

Wait just a minute. This is awfully strange... If I'm not imagining things,
B4:M seems to solidly support the concept that the lowly grunt will, all
things being equal, be better in non-Battle Dress combat than the mighty
marine. Hmmm...

However, an interesting dilemna pops up. I call your attention to B4:M page
43 under "Part II: Overview of Equipment: Infantry Small Arms and Personal
Equipment" I'll type out the important parts, it'll save the wear and tear
on the spine of your own copy:

"Tech level 11: Combat armor is available... but expense precludes general
issue."

This is acceptable, however only marines who serve as ship's troops are
capable of getting the proper skill to use combat armor if their homeworld
is CTTL-11. However, B4:M is unclear on this. I can't find a reference that
states that Vacc Suit is required to use Combat Armor in B4:M. However, my
copy of The Traveller Book says that this is so. Does anyone know if this
rule introduced *after* B4:M?

CTTL-12 introduces the gauss rifle and the grav belt, which is "used for
scouting purposes." No mention is made of personal armor.

"Tech level 13: All infantry is generally now in combat armor... Battle
dress is issued to selected assault troops."

If your character is serving in a CTTL-13 military, he's assumed to be using
combat armor. There's a big problem though. A non-marine infantry soldier
from a CTTL-13 world has only a 1 in 6 chance of getting Vacc Suit. Very
strange. A marine, once again, can only get Vacc Suit if he serves onboard a
ship for that time period. On the other hand, a high-tech marine has a 1 in
6 chance of getting battle dress skill, as does a high-tech commando. So
battle dress skill seems to be properly rare for the tech level.

"Tech level 14: A higher number of infantry is equipped with battle
dress..."

Doesn't look that way from the table on page 6. In fact, CTTL-14 is treated
exactly the same as CTTL-13 for the purposes of acquiring skills.

"Tech level 15: Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has
converted to the FGMP-14."

Most infantry? Bah! Not according to the table on page 6! Well, of course,
that's unless you consider a 1 in 6 chance for a marine to get the skill and
a 1 in 6 chance for a commando to get the skill to be "most infantry."

So, which should it be then?

The letter of the law (a few rows and columns on the top of page 6), which
says that battle dress skill is rather rare.

The spirit of the law (a series of descriptions of the battlefield at
different tech levels), which happens to say another thing entirely.

Mercenary does not say that marines are real hardcore combat monsters,
struggling through massive amounts of weapons training in order to get the
chance just to *peek* at a suit of battle dress.

In fact, my resolve is strengthened. However, for the time being, I'm
finished with both the rarity of battle dress arguments and the toughness of
non-BD marines vs. non-BD infantry. B4:M seems to speak very clearly on the
subject. In my opinion, not only is Doug's view of the Imperial marines easy
to rectify with B4:M, it actually keeps true to the spirit of the holiest of
Classic Traveller supplemental tomes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 23:10:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: IM / BD, mini's

  FWIW, although the old Grenadier 25mm Imperial Marines were essentially
all in combat armour and armed with gauss rifles, the "Stargrunt" (GZG)
product line has some nice blisters of power armour troopers (2 for $5.75 US)
that fit in fairly well with the IM figs, especially the SGN codes, #'s 353
& 355 (heavy plasma rifle & heavy SAW, respectively). IMHO.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:15:00 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Spaceship models

Dear Folks -

Steve said:
>  For the seriously (?) miniatures inclined there's a line of plastic
>models available - looks like re-issues (man. Bandai, 1979?) of the
>models for the "Space Cruiser Yamato" (aka "Star Blazers for us round-
>eyes) cartoon/animated movie/anime series.

.and there are some pics on Rob Caswell's  web site (yes, _the_ Rob
Caswell - and no, he hasn't yet scratch-built a Scout ship, I already asked
;-)...

.while you are there, check out the awesome model of "The Black Hole"
ship; remember, that's the one that looks like a gothic cathedral...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 23:16:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> A minor point:
> Note:  We're already headed for inconsistencies within GT.
> The inks not dry on Star Mercs.   On page 21, Marine Commandos
> wear Green Berets with a golden sunburst and the words
> "All Means To Victory".  So in the end will we have an OTU with
> regular marines wearing maroon berets and the commandos wearing
> green ones?  I don't care which color but I appreciate consistency.
> 
> But green?  That will clash with the maroon dress uniform (not that I'm
> a fan of that either, but I think its time to call a fashion consultant.
> Things are getting ugly).  ;-)

They can do whatever they want in the official Traveller universe.  My
(pumped, macho, politically incorrect) Marines aren't showing up in any
maroon uniforms.  

- --Glenn

P.S. Who remembers the bad guys whose soldiers' uniforms were a color
that Jim DiGriz realized after a while was the same as dried blood?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:09:24 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

On 02 Jul, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

> Also there is a hard limit of 1,000,000 dtons for any ship in CT.

That isn't how I interpret High Guard. I believe that the phrase:

"Eash specific tonnage level includes all values between it and the
 next highest stated level"

means that code Y is 1,000,000dt *and up* (since size Z isn't used).
Also such ships can be controlled by a model 7 computer and thus
built at TL13.

In practice, tenders much bigger than 1Mdt don't save a lot per
rider deployed, can still be destroyed by a single spinal mount hit
and are inflexible in deployment.

Unless you want something capable of Jump-6 whilst deploying 200kdt
buffered planetoids, the fact that the optimal rider seems to be in
the 10-30kdt range (getting smaller as TL rises) suggests that ships
bigger that 1Mdt are pretty rare.

> Whether this means tender+riders can't exceed 1,000,000 or whether
> the tender alone can't exceed that figure depends on how you
> interpret the rules. I myself would say that tender and riders
> combined can't exceed 1,000,000 dtons, but I admit that it's debatable.

High Guard has the line:

"Big craft require tonnage equal to 110% of their mass in the ship"

This tends to suggest that, if you want your 1Mdt tender to carry
500kdt of riders, then you only have 450kdt available for other systems.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:37:29 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

On 01 Jul, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> As to the roles of Imperial Marines, in my interpretation of Classic
> Traveller canon they have the following main roles:

> 1) shipboard security (best done in combat armour with light weapons)

I'd have thought a marine in BD, wielding a cutlass, would do even less
damage to the ship.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #804
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 805



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Book 4: Mercenary, spirit of the law vs. letter of the law...
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]
Re: Xenobiology 101 (New Scientist article "How to design an alien")
Re: More Fun for the Marines
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks (long)
Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)
Re: Hexagons
Re: 3dspace
Re: Mercenary Doctors
Re: Yahoo new clause (LONG)
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Star Trigger threat?
Re: Re : MedTraders
Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)
Re: 'nother small update
Re: Battle Riders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 02:51:19 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Book 4: Mercenary, spirit of the law vs. letter of the law...

At 02:02 AM 7/2/99 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>"Tech level 11: Combat armor is available... but expense precludes general
>issue."
>
>This is acceptable, however only marines who serve as ship's troops are
>capable of getting the proper skill to use combat armor if their homeworld
>is CTTL-11. However, B4:M is unclear on this. I can't find a reference that
>states that Vacc Suit is required to use Combat Armor in B4:M. However, my
>copy of The Traveller Book says that this is so. Does anyone know if this
>rule introduced *after* B4:M?

The entry for combat armour in CT Book 1 states that Vacc Suit -1 or better
is required to use it.

The description of Vacc Suit skill in Book 1 states "the individual has
been trained and has experience in the use of the standard vacuum suit ...
including armored battle dress ...".
Battle Dress skill, as defined in B4:M, is the same as Vacc Suit, but adds
the ability to use the PGMP-13 & FGMP-14 safely.  Someone without Battle
Dress skill has a chance of mishap when firing these weapons, with Vacc
Suit skill acting as a beneficial modifier.

The apparent intent was that Vacc Suit skill was fine for using battle
dress for all things *except* when weapon systems only usable with battle
dress were used.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 07:29:08 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

> 
>         Hmmm ... in about a week and a half, I get my household goods
> delivered. Including my Dad's collection of books--containing among
> other things "If," "Galaxy," "Analog," "Amazing Stories," etc. dating
> back to late 50's, early 60's.
> 
>         Remind me in two weeks and I'll try to look for that issue. No, you
> may NOT have it. But I'll think about reading it to you ...

I THINK its the issue with the picture of that ship from Niven's "The
Mote in God's Eye" travelling accross the cover.  Not too sure.  And
before you go lording it over that you have all those, <evil grin>, bear
in mind I have a mint condition, original publication of "Who Goes
There?" by John W. Campbell, Jr.  :)

Also have an original of Ringworld which Niven himself claims is a
collectors' item due to the incorrect math and such used in it. 
(apparently some MIT students read him the riot act and in later
publications he re-dressed his earlier blunders.)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 07:31:21 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities bends [long]

> Of course, I have heard homesteaders complaining about Geocities...
> something about the ads, labels and popups becoming gradually more
> strident as time (and policy) went by. It's never that the ads are too much
> when you join - it's that soon after you join, everything goes up a notch
> or two.
> 
> Walt Smith
> 

I hate those damned pop-ups and adds because I DO pay for my Geocities's
site.  Every month.  Have since I started 2 years ago.  Yet I still get
those annoying things when I surf to other pages.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:47:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (New Scientist article "How to design an alien")

In mail you write:

> aliens. He has Outsiders, exposed to space on their skeletal 'spaceships',
> following the Star-Seeds on their 100 000-year cycle into and out of the 
> Galaxy (I do not think we are ever told what Star-Seeds are),

There's at least one story where a star seed is watched as it "sets
sail" out of a solar system. From this we learn a *few* things about star-seeds.

> There are the cowardly Puppeteers, the Bandersnatchi,  great
> galleon-like creatures on many planets, disseminated by the ancient Slavers 
> - no one knows if they are intelligent.

<sigh> 

It's established in "World of Ptavvs" that Bandersnatchi are
intelligent. Also that they are the product of genetic engineering.

> [He admits inventing grendels!!!  Such a boring alien!  A crocodile
> on speed - and even then such a poor one, to this day I don't know
> why they needed to invent the magic go-juice instead of better
> muscle/bone leverage, or some group-hunting mechanic, in fact, a
> whole bunch of things that are more likely to evelove than magic
> go-juice.  And the ecology! So simple! - ahhhhh don't get me started
> - my opinion of grendels are off-topic].

The ecology on the island *is* overly simple. And the grendels are
*why* it is so simple. Check out the second book for a more complicated
ecology.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:04:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: More Fun for the Marines

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:47:43, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>>Yes, he said Medical.  M*A*S*H in space.  Think about it, when they weren't
>>being utterly silly they got some good plots in.  To steal one:
>>
>>While supporting a Counter-Insurgency mission, the staff notices that a
>>united of mixed Vargr/Human troops is taking casualties that are
>>disproportionately high among the Vargr.  A little detective work shows
>>that the commander of the unit lost his wife to Vargr corsairs many years
>>ago.  Problem, the guy is a bloody hero, outranks the PC commander, and is
>>a minor noble to boot.  How do we get this butcher away from his troops?
>
> DANG!  This is brilliant.  Now I'm going to have to find an episode guide
> and start trawling it for plots...
>
> Not your standard "Merchants and Mercenaries" campaign, by a long shot.

Another one I recall was a commander who incurred heavy casualties
among his troops by insisting on recovering the bodies of anyone killed
in action. 

This can turn a single casualty into a real meat grinder.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:07:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks (long)

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor writes:
> <snipped>
> "These criteria get blurry at both ends of the size scale : 
> is a prion 'alive'? a single enzyme? an ecosystem? a biosphere?"
>
>         There are certainly fuzzy areas, but from an evolutionary 
>         standpoint there is no point to considering an ecosystem
>         (or a biosphere) an organism. For natural selection to 
>         act, there must be reproducing entities that may differ in
>         their ability to reproduce. One might argue that populations
>         might "reproduce," (indeed, some biologists have so argured) 
>         but selection on individuals is expected to overwhelm 
>         selection on groups unless very specific conditions are met.

Actually, eco-systems *do* compete. That's how we get things like the
progression from grassland to "climax forest" after a fire. 

An area will have the ecosystem best suited to it. But some ecosystems
change the conditions such that *other* eco-systems are now better
suited. Thus the "succesion" phenomenon.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:17:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)

In mail you write:

>>> 2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
>>> general?
>>
>>I'd say that you need to check for radiation belts. Jupiter's will kill
>>you in short order. Any settelements on its moons will have to be well
>>buried.

> I remember that you said something similar when I asked what things might be
> like if I happened to live on a gas giant's moon some time back. Okay, is
> there a quick and dirty method for figuring out the radius of a gas giant's
> radiation belt? Or is there a rule of thumb?

No idea. I assume there's some way to figure it out from the strength
of the planet's magnetic field, the speed of rotation, the size of the
planet, and how active the star is. 

Earth has its Van Allen belts, but they are smaller. 

> What are possible ways that the high-tech society of the Traveller universe
> may have figured out to combat such a problem? Are ships in the TU shielded
> against such radiation, or are there special considerations that pilots
> might have to keep in mind when skimming for fuel?

The ships seem to be shielded well enough to survive short periods in
the belts. 

> Would it be possible to erect some sort of shield around a colony? In a
> crude fashion, would a dome made out of, say, lead or something similar be
> feasible?

Burying is easier than trying to find a bunch of lead. Also, it pays to
keep in mind that since this is particle radiation, you have to watch
out for secondary radiation. With high speed particles, you can
actually be safer with *less* shielding, as the high speed particles
mostly zip right through you. But any that hit shielding create
"showers" of secondary particles. These, because they move more slowly
will almost all get stopped by the body. This is why our spacecraft
right now *don't* carry shielding.

> Are there other methods to defend against radiation? I'd suspect that, on a
> moon, it would be best to just dig in. How about an orbital colony or base
> though?

In orbit, you could *try* playing games with magnetic fields, but the
problem with that is that they deflect charged particles in opposite
directions depending on the charge. And also, if they deflect stuff
past the "equator" they'll be guiding it directly *into* the poles.
Oops! 

And the magnetic field would interact with the *planet's* field and
screw up your orbit *seriously*.

So the only real solution is lots of mass (dirt, rock, water, whatever)
between you and the source. In orbit, it'll be all around you. So the
best bet is to have a thick hull, and then put all the water tankage
just inside that and storage areas for stuff that radiation won't hurt
inside that. After all, this *isn't* the sort of "radiation" that makes
things radioactive. You could store just about anything but seeds and
film near the hull. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:44:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hexagons

In mail you write:

>> > Observation: While dinking around with hex paper and polyhedrons, I
>> > noticed that apparently twenty tetrahedrons make an icosahedron, and
>> > as far as I can tell this can be continued as a pattern out from each
>> > exterior point making twelve more icosahedrons intersecting the
>> > first, and so on.
>>
>> Nope. If you have enough 4 sided dice you'll find that you *cannot*
>> construct an icosahedron out of tetrahedrons. There will be gaps.
>> Significant ones.
>>
>> Tetrahedra cannot be used to "fill" space. Cubes can, and so can a
>> *mix* of tetrahedra and octahedra. No other regular polyhedrons will
>> "fill space".
>
> You can also stack spheres.  They did it all the time with cannon shot.
> Yes, there are gaps,  but if we make the analogy to starcharts, then each
> sphere can be concidered the outer boundary of a star system, about half a
> parsec out (I know that's WAY past the kuiper belt but its  the halfway mark
> between adjacent systems).   Note that switching to this system for
> starcharts puts 12 spheres adjacent (6 around plus 3 on top and 3 beneath)
> rather than the customary 6 hexes.

You *can* stack spheres, but for maps or co-ordinate systems, gaps are
a no-no. 

Also, they recently proved that the densest packing of spheres in 3d
space is cubic. I forget whether it is "face centered" or "body
centered". But it's essentially the stack you get with layers like this:

1
4
9
16

In other words, a square grid, with alternate layers offset 50%. Oddly,
hex grids are equivalent to "staggered square" type grids. So stacked
hex maps (stacked with the hexes on top of each other) actually make
sense. 

Just like the old Star Force: Alpha Centauri "light-zulus".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:51:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3dspace

In mail you write:

> Actually I would just like to see the formula.  I do most of my programming 
> in qbasic.

OK, here's the conversion, both ways. It's in Pascal (more or less) but
should be easy to convert:

Phi:	angle from the positive X-axis, measured in the X-Y plane
	range 0 to 360

Theta:	Angle above or below the X-Y plane
	range +90 to -90

Rectangular to polar:

Function atn2(y,x : real):real;
  const
    rad=0.0174532925199433;
  var
    ax,ay,phi :real;
  begin
    if (x=0.0) and (y=0.0) then
      atn2 := 0.0
    else
    begin
      ax := abs(x);
      ay := abs(y);
      if (ax>ay) then
        phi := arctan(ay/ax)/rad
      else
        phi := 90.0-arctan(ax/ay)/rad;
      if (x<0.0) then phi := 180.0-phi;
      if (y<0.0) then phi := -phi;
      atn2 := phi
    end
  end;

procedure polar(x,y,z : real; var r,theta,phi : real);
  var 
    rho : real;
  begin
    rho := x^2 + Y^2;
    R := sqrt( rho^2 + z^2);
    Phi := atn2(y,x);
    if phi<0 then phi:=phi+360.0;
    rho := sqrt(rho);
    theta := atn2(z,rho)
  end;

Now for polar to rectangular:

procedure cart (r,theta,phi : real; x,y,z :real);
  var
    rcst : real;
  begin
    rcst := r*cos(theta);
    x := rcst * cos(phi);
    y := rcst * sin(phi);
    z := r* sn(theta)
  end;

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:20:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mercenary Doctors

In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:

> Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Not that far from the plot of one of Leinster's Med-Ship stories. But
> the Med service doesn't approve of that sort of thing. And crossing
> them can be *really* bad news.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 1st Bad Merc Doctor: "Med Service? What are *they* going to do
> about it?"
> 2nd Bad Merc Doctor: "Um, why does that Med Service delivery
> shuttle have Imperial Marine markings?"
>
> Both Together: "Run Awaaaaaaaayyyyy....!!!"

The Med Service doctors in Leinster's stories are rather more
resourceful than that. They have to be. You see, in his universe,
interstellar war isn't practical for several reasons. Thus no "Imperial
Marines".

But just stop and think what a *really* upset doctor with facilities
capable of things like *routine* curing planetwide plagues can do to
the people he's upset with.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:25:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Yahoo new clause (LONG)

In mail you write:

>> This is the new Yahoo clause that substitutes the problem one. It 
>> does *not* satisfy me, since it still says that they have the right
>> to publish what you post there.
>> Any comments from our resident law experts?
>> Carlos Alos-Ferrer
>>
>> 8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO
>> Yahoo does not own Content you submit, unless  we specifically tell
>> you otherwise before you submit it. You license the Content to Yahoo
>> as set forth below for the purpose of displaying  and distributing
>> such Content on our network of properties and for the promotion and
>> marketing of our services. By submitting  Content to any Yahoo
>> property, you automatically grant, or warrant that the owner of such
>> Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the royalty-free, perpetual,
>> irrevocable,  non-exclusive and fully sublicensable right and license
>> to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create
>> derivative works  from, distribute, perform and display such Content
>> (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works
>> in any form,  media, or technology now known or later developed.
>>
>
> Read that clause above CAREFULLY.  Now they say they don't "own" your work,
> they just have the perpetual right to use it as they please without paying
> for it.  Perhaps I'm an idiot, but that sounds like "ownership" to me.
> Better even, because they get all the benefits of ownership and none of the
> liability!  (If I buy a copy of Digidesign's ProTools III, I'm most
> definitely NOT allowed to reproduce it -- even after paying that company
> over $5000 for it!)
>
> As a digital audio engineer and producer at an independant label, I have
> asked all my clients who have posted ANYTHING original (music, lyrics,
> photos, etc.) on a Yahoo!-owned site, including Geocities, to REMOVE that
> material ASAP -- if they are not willing to give up their exclusive rights
> under Copyright law or their Publishing rights.

Slight problem. You have to agree to the new terms before they'll let
you modify *anything* on your web-site. That includes deleting files. 

On the brighht side, setting it up that way pretty much guarantees that
they've shot themselves in the foot. By not allowing you to removing
things *without* "agreeing" to the new terms, odds are that they've
made your agreement worthless.

On the other hand, don't forget to tell your customers to tell Yahoo
that they *demand* their material be removed from all existing backups.

> worst TOS language I've seen --  and any claim that they need 'publishing'
> rights in order to allow you to put material on Geocites is a bogus,
> unsubtle grab for hard-to-come-by original content for free.

It depends. *That* is an area where the law ain't at all clear. But
they've definitely gone overboard. They could cover their ass with
regards to publishing rights in re allowing access to your web site
*without* all this "in perpetuity" stuff.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:38:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

In mail you write:

> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>> Antony Farrell writes:
>> 
>> >Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
>> >work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?
>> 
>> Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
>> is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
>
> Sub-nova level flares?  At a parsec, doubt its much more dangerous than a 
> heavy solar storm.

The problem is that the *original* use of the Star Trigger is supposed
to have trashed things for several hexes out from the Darrian
homeworld. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:42:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

In mail you write:

> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>> Antony Farrell writes:
>>
>> >Especially as now the Darrians actually know how to make the Star Trigger
>> >work, would not their neighbours be a tad worried?
>>
>> Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
>> is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?

> When did the darians actually get the thing working?

Years back there was an adventure (possibly in the CT Darrians book?)
that had the players discover that the Star Trigger as then
deployed was a collossal bluff. It wouldn't work. But in the process
they discover what *did* trigger y\the original disaster. And with that
info, it wouldn't take all that long to reconfigure the non-working
Star Triggers into something that really would work.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:45:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : MedTraders

In mail you write:

> Perhaps we should expand the terms of discourse of this thread.
> 'Star Mercs' rely on superior off-world expertise, contracting out their
> services (any service) to lower-tech worlds.
>         The 3I equivalent to Anderson Consulting or Drake ("Solutions, Inc.")
> can provide trained individuals and materiel to solve *almost*
> any problem, if you pay the fee....
>
> "NikoMak Associates, LIC : Force is the Crudest Means of Imposing Your
> Will"

I prefer one from Heinlein:

"General Services: We also walk dogs."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 21:44:41 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)

* Body Plans
The history of life on Earth suggests that body form becomes tightly
conserved once a lineage is established. For example, all vertebrates
have a head at one end of the spinal cord and four limbs.
	Looking back into the fossil record, one can see that a huge range of
potential 'ancestors' were generated in the Cambrian 'explosion' where
life attempted to exploit all niches available to it at the time. The
Ediacaran flora and fauna and other fossils found in the Burgess shale
look decidely strange.
	As Steven Jay Gould attests, if things happened a little differently,
we wouldn't be here ; intelligence may or may not have arisen in another
lineage.
	However, the overall sequence aquatic -> land plants -> amphibians ->
land animals -> flying animals seems a reasonable one.

	In practical terms, the following flags suggest themselves :-
1. Habitat :- aquatic, amphibious, land, aerial, triphibian
2. Neuraxis :- vertebrates and invertebrates have only one spinal cord
or central set of ganglia. Multiple brains are unlikely, but multiple
cords are not.
3. Endo or exo-skeleton :- structural support and fulcra to anchor
muscles and tendons to.
	The upper bound for size for exoskeletons (in one g with carbon
compounds) appears to belong to an extinct arthropod whose remains were
recently excavated in Europe. Picture a centipede 2m long and about 0.5m
in diameter! [The largest living arthropods, spider crabs, have bodies
0.5m in diameter and a leg span of up to 1.5m].
4. Number of limbs :- no restriction really ; the limit is on structural
strength (why elephants have thick legs, insects spindly ones and us
somewhere in between).
5. Coverings  :- determined by the creature's habitat. Aquatic forms and
flyers need to minimise drag. Some may require insulation depending on
their habitat.
6. Warm or Cold-Blooded? :- does the creature attempt to maintain a
constant core temperature or not?

* Plants
Could be considered as being made up of the following :-
- - Energy collecting system (e.g. leaves)
- - Nutrient collecting system (e.g. roots)
- - Skeletal system (e.g. the woody parts of stems, tree trunks)
- - Circulatory system (e.g. xylem and phloem vessels which rely on
capillary flow)
- - Reproductive system (e.g. flowers, seed cones, etc).
They also have well developed immune and hormonal systems ; but unlike
animals these do not appear to be based in specific 'organs'.

<I would like to get some background info on the Ahetaowa     
[Ahetaowa/Ihearu (Ealiyasiyw 2604)], if these are the intelligent plant
race.>

* Ecology
This is well covered in 'First In' and other Traveller books.
The only point I could add is the '10% rule' :- each level of a food
pyramid is 10% the size of the level below.

E.g. 100kg of producers (plants, etc.) supports 10kg of primary consumer
(herbivore) supports 1kg of secondary consumer (carnivore), etc.

* A 'Worked Example'
This world caught my eye in BtC :-
i. Zeta 2 (Vilis 0919) :- This world apparently has oceans of hydrogen
fluoride and a Hot climate (average temperature 314-319K).
Since hydrogen fluoride boils at 292K at one atmosphere's pressure,
surface atmospheric pressure must be several atmospheres. The Viji, if
native to Zeta 2, have HF as a solvent system.
	Using fluorine as a metabolic reactant would have explosive
consequences ; but a methane or phosgene -> carbon dioxide system is a
viable alternative.
	CO2 could exert the atmospheric pressure required to keep the oceans
from boiling away ; it is also a good greenhouse gas.
	Since the average surface temperature is 41 to 46 degrees C, the
Viji must 'tick over' at a higher temperature than this. Metabolic rate
scales with the fourth power of temperature - and being 'not much more
than microscopic in size' they will metabolise even faster, by Kleiber's
law.
	A small, hot, compressed lifeform which apparently has a group
sentience? A truly alien alien, and that's ignoring the 'silicon based'
bit.

Gahhh... I've run out of steam.
What next? (Polite suggestions, please!)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:13:25 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: 'nother small update

At 11:16 PM 01/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I created a ship picture especially for the TML.  This one was only just
>created and will not be published by SJG.  I've been playing with some new
>planet textures :)
>
>

        Prreeeeeeeety.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 06:09:12 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:09:24 +0100
>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Battle Riders
>
>On 02 Jul, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>
>> Also there is a hard limit of 1,000,000 dtons for any ship in CT.
>
>That isn't how I interpret High Guard. I believe that the phrase:
>
>"Eash specific tonnage level includes all values between it and the
> next highest stated level"
>
>means that code Y is 1,000,000dt *and up* (since size Z isn't used).
>Also such ships can be controlled by a model 7 computer and thus
>built at TL13.

"Ships may range in size from 100 tons to 1,000,000 tons." Book 5 (1st ed),
p. 18.

"The fighting starships built and used by the navies of the galaxy range in
size from 100 tons to 1,000,000 tons, representing the most potent weapons
available to any government, corporation, or individual." Book 5 (1st ed),
p. 21.

"The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100
to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available
anywhere." Book 5 (2d ed), p. 15.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #805
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 806



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Imperial Marines [not so long]
An answer to web hosting....
RE: Star Trigger threat?
RE: Battle Riders
Battle Dress Colors
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #787
RE: Battle Riders
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Imperial Marines [long]
Re: Violence Immersion
Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in Gods Eye spoilers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 08:21:25 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)

> 3. Endo or exo-skeleton :- structural support and fulcra to anchor
> muscles and tendons to.

You forgot to mention "hydrostatic" skeleton type (tough gristle-like
segments filled with some sort of fluid).

A study of earth's life forms can give a wide array of different things.

For instance, Bees see in the ultraviolet and use the earth's magnetic
field to guide them.  Sharks sense electrical fields when the water is
too clogged with blood to see.  The Rattlesnake has infrared pits all
over that can detect a temperature difference of a 10th of a degree.

Small insects have open ciculatory systems and a passive breathing
arrangement thru tubes in their carapace that lead right to the
bloodstream.  This is why man-sized insects are impossible.  they'd
suffocate without some other form of non-passive oxygenation.

Multi-faceted eyes work great on small scale, but a man-sized critter
would be nearly blind.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:00:12 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

> LOL!!
> 
> This reminds me of bubblejet printers.  Supplied very cheaply (often free
> with some systems), but when you have to replace consumables -- Holy
> Snapping Duck Shiiiiit!

I used to build Deskjets  (same premis) we intentionally sell printers
low so you will buy lots of consumables at price..thats actually where
we make profit..The printers are almost a loss.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:10:30 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)

In a message dated 7/2/99 6:42:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

> > I remember that you said something similar when I asked what things might be
>  > like if I happened to live on a gas giant's moon some time back. Okay, is
>  > there a quick and dirty method for figuring out the radius of a gas giant's
>  > radiation belt? Or is there a rule of thumb?
>  
>  No idea. I assume there's some way to figure it out from the strength
>  of the planet's magnetic field, the speed of rotation, the size of the
>  planet, and how active the star is. 
>  
>  Earth has its Van Allen belts, but they are smaller. 

To be honest, this item didn't occur to me when I was working on the First
In world-design sequence.  If we can find some reasonable way to figure
this out, it might be worth having as an optional rule.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:19:07 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

>>>> (begin quoted material)
You seem to confirm my uninformed opinion of this though - if the week

that a jump takes is measured in _system_ time, there isn't much you
can do to time travel, but if the week is measured in _ship_ time,
you can break it a lot easier than I thought!

Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone
dot com
>>>> (end quoted material)
I still think the slickest way past this whole FTL = time travel
business is to say (as I have IMTU) that Jump takes *approximately* one
week in Jump Space time, which is not directly related to any particular
relative frame in our universe.  For my purposes though, time spent in
Jump Space seems to match _system_ (or low speed with relation to C)
time best.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:41:00 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [not so long]

>Yes, I am. As I said at the outset, if the sides are clearly identifiable
>(a WWI-type conflict) I am reasonably convinced the Imperial Marines can
>handle whatever comes their way.
>
>But Vietnam is only one example of a type of conflict that is far more
>common than open warfare, and just as destructive in the long run.

[much snippage]

>If there *is* a large battle, I agree 100%. But if the Marines are dropping
>into a Northern Ireland gone bad? Sure, they would have no trouble picking
>out the British Army -- but are those really the guys they _need_ to find,
>even just to put an end to the immediate fighting? This is a much more
>likely scenario than a stand-up fight.


My question is -- if not the Imperial Marines, who? The Imperial Army? S3?

From all accounts, the problem-solving techniques used by the Imperial
military do not seem to have derived the same benefit from the advance of
years as technology has. The Imperium is probably up the same creek Britian
is when it comes to stopping a conflict like that going on in Northern
Ireland.

The way the Imperial Marines are organized and equipped may not necessarily
be what works best for every situation. In the same way that modern armies
have difficulties with certain duties they are given, the IM are going to
have difficulties with certain actions. This does not mean that the
Imperium doesn't use them, though.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:06:18 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: An answer to web hosting....

The cheapest I've come across is the following....
http://www.amhosting.net/hosting.shtml   They have been around a couple of
years and are still in business.  Thats not a guarantee or anything but is a
very positive sign.  I signed up for their regular package at $9.95 per
month with NO setup fees and a whole bunch of freebies that other companies
I researched are charging for.  I follow up later with support and so forth
as I get my site setup.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 00:09:14 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Star Trigger threat?

It was in the Megatraveller Alien Module Darrians - Secret of the Star
Trigger. Interesting in that despite - as far as anyone knew having had this
weapon for centuries Darrian still managed to get caught in each of the
frontier wars.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 00:09:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battle Riders

Anyone worked out what penetration partical accelerator would be needed to
punch a hole through to say a size 8 worlds core? If so how big a vessel
would be needed to carry one?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Battle Dress Colors

Um...presumably imperial battle dress has looking glass surface, or at least
the variable color surface available for standard ships.  In either case,
there's no need for a separate 'dress' battle suit -- you just program it for
the pattern you want.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:20:38 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #787

>>>> (begin quoted material)
It paints a rather amusing picture of IM catering Corp personnel
making
brekkie or peeling spuds in a field kitchen in full BD!  Not to
mention
admin just behind the lines... computer keyboards must have 3" square
keys!
You try typing with motorcycle gauntlets on!!  I imagined field
computers to
be a little smaller, not a metre or so larger  :^)  Heheheheh.

- - --  The Roc
>>>> (end quoted material)
I like this idea!  Keypads for airlocks and that are intended for use
by people in hostile environment suits of any sort would tend to be
bigger than normal.  This is probably an interesting detail for someone
like Jesse to use.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:18:28 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: Battle Riders

At 12:09 AM 7/3/99 +0800, you wrote:
>Anyone worked out what penetration partical accelerator would be needed to
>punch a hole through to say a size 8 worlds core? If so how big a vessel
>would be needed to carry one?

Hmmm, perhaps the Death St...er, Lab Ship that was posted about a year ago
that had a PA with a range listed in AUs...


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:29:04 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Well, there *is* some speculation that the surfaces of 
certain feldspar derived clays served as a template for the 
earliest self-replicating molecules."

	Certainly. While in a solvent.

"But the limits of exo-skeletons select *againt* large sizes."

	So do the limits of endoskeletons. Your point should be
	that the disadvantages of larger size accumulate faster
	for exoskeletons than for endoskeletons. Note that this 
	does not exclude the existence of large (say 100 kg) 
	organisms with exoskeletons, it only means that at larger 
	sizes an endoskeleton is more efficient with regards to 
	structural strength/weight than the exoskeletons that we 
	have seen on Terra. This most definitely does not mean 
	that all organisms of 100 kg will evolve endoskeletons.

"I have no doubt that
>         the size of animals with respiratory systems like insects
>         is limited, but I'm not sure that even the largest insects
>         that have walked our planet represent that limit.

The folks writing the stuff I've read seem to be fairly sure."

	Try reading: Schmidt-Nielsen, K. 1984. Scaling: why is 
	body size so important? Cambridge University Press, N.Y.

Yep. Even a "typical" tarantula has a body that's far bigger than any
insect can have. And there are spiders with bodies even larger. The
infamous "bird-eating" spider comes to mind.

	"Far bigger?" A little digging on my part produced a weight of
	about 4 oz for the largest known bird-eating spiders. The
	goliath beetle (which can fly) is about 3.5 oz. The goliath
	beetle is about 5" long, while the largest bird-eating
	spiders have a leg span of about 13", and an extinct dragon-
	fly had a wingspan of about 24". A large tarantla is not even 
	larger than known insects, let alone comparing a "typical"
	tarantula to possible insects that could be even bigger (If
	a flying insect can be so big, requiring lightness and high
	metabolic rate, then a relatively sedentary insect could 
	probably be considerably bigger).

"BTW, one of the big limits on exoskeletons is a combination of lack 
of leverage as the limbs get larger, and problems with load bearing 
at joints. There's just too much "stuff" going through the joints."

	"A mechanical analysis, based on fundamental principals of 
	mechanics, suggest that an exoskeleton is superior to an 
	endoskeleton in regard to failure by buckling and bending. 
	When it comes to forces of impact, however, ...the exoskeleton 
	is at a disadvantage, particularly for large and active animals 
	such as vertebrates."
		-Schmidt-Nielsen, 1984 (p. 53)
	Once again, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. 
	Endoskeletons gain more advantages as body size increases.
	We have not necessarily seen the upper limit on body size for
	terrestrial organisms with an exoskeleton and/or tracheal
	respiration.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [long]

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
>         Hi, Chris!
>         Just wanted to comment on this last little bit.  The problem with
> these dictators is that they know that there is a un-written ROE amongst
> nations that says "no assassinating the other guy's President".  On Earth,
> RealLife(tm) say the US picked off and did so overtly (or even covert and
> the only the espionage community knew about it), say Saddam, as a method of
> disposing of the threat.  That immediatley puts the US president in the
> firing line;  as has been proven at least twice in the 20th Century...  the
> Bad Guy will get through security.

Actually, a major secondary reason why assassination is discouraged is that it
doesn't work worth a damn, because most of those people are professional
paranoids with local enemies who are already better situated to set up an
assassination than the CIA is, and would be perfectly happy to do so if an
opportunity arose.  Also, for every 'bad guy' who gets through security, a
hundred more don't.

Incidentally, an argument can be made that Reagan bombing Tripoli was an
attempted assassination, and blowing up some of Miloseviches homes is
definatately a statement that we wouldn't feel terribly bad about killing him..
Again, these people are professional paranoids (does anyone have any idea how
many different bunkers Hussein has to live in?) and in practice decapitation
strikes against dictators aren't going to be all that easy.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:30:59 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Violence Immersion

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 3:09 AM
Subject: Violence Immersion


>Unless they are wired differently than humans, it won't work. Humans are
>apparently hard wired to become accustomed to anything which is common in
>their environment. Humans are hard wired to adapt. Biophysical studies have
>shown that persons exposed to lots of violent imagery grow less and less
>affected from a biological standpoint by that same type of imagery with
>repeated exposures.

Same type or same image specifically? Also, "technically" should there be a
difference between say, biophysical effects and psychological cultivation?

The reason that I'm quite intrigued by your statements are based on the fact
that I am a voracious horror movie watcher, yet, if anything, I am sort of
anti-conditioned. I wince, for example, when I hear a particularly nasty
story on the news, or visibly shudder when a football player takes what
appears to be a painful fall. What's interesting also is that many of my
friends and such *also* are voracious horror movie fans, and the majority of
them have the same sort of sensitivities towards violence.

I'm not looking for a distinct cause and effect type situation, but what is
known as the cultivation of concepts. I'll gladly draw a tenuous connection
between what I've seen with my own eyes and broad societies ;)

>The exceptions are in cases where some direct physical
>stimulus is applied while the imagery is viewed causing pain or discomfort
>of a physical nature. In short, unlesss you are made to be violently ill or
>in great pain, the more you watch, the less you'll feel upon seeing it
>again.


Again, is it the same "type" or the same "image." For example, I recall that
there was a psychiatrist who tried the "Clockwork Orange" idea out with
homosexuals. It was a system of electroshock when they appeared to be
getting excited by same sex pornographic imagery. I think during the late
70s or early 80s. He did what you're talking about here, and the success
rate was quite low, if I recall correctly.

>The same principle applies in the movie industry to special effects of all
>kinds... Which is why hollywood MUST keep pushing the envelope, rather than
>sticking at a plateau of graphical quality... if you don't keep pushing,
>eventually everything becomes "normal"....


<shrug> I'll agree in a broad sense, but I'll disagree on the specifics.
I've easily seen many movies with violence that puts the beginning of Saving
Private Ryan to shame. Yet, during the opening of Saving Private Ryan, for
example, I was asked if I was alright because I had become quite pale and
sickly looking. There are other example I can think of where similar things
have happened to me or others.

It's interesting to mention that a friend of mine decided against med-school
because he was completely squicked by blood. Yet he is a huge horror movie
fan.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)

Leonard Erickson writes:
>> 
> In orbit, you could *try* playing games with magnetic fields, but the
> problem with that is that they deflect charged particles in opposite
> directions depending on the charge. And also, if they deflect stuff
> past the "equator" they'll be guiding it directly *into* the poles.
> Oops! 

As long as it has a strong enough field to deflect protons, the fact that it
deflects opposite charges in opposite directions isn't a big problem.  For the
problem with the poles -- just create a ring-shaped spaceship with a hole (or
something which doesn't mind radiation) in the middle.
> 
> And the magnetic field would interact with the *planet's* field and
> screw up your orbit *seriously*.

Yes, but in a fairly predictable manner.  Usable as a low-tech 'reactionless'
thruster, if you want.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Leonard Erickson writes:

> The problem is that the *original* use of the Star Trigger is supposed
> to have trashed things for several hexes out from the Darrian
> homeworld. 

*cough*.  Laugh.  And there's still a Darrian homeworld?  Hell, there's still a
regular star there?  Nothing this side of a supernova is that powerful, and it
will completely clear out the solar system and eliminate most of the outer
layers of the star.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:15:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

At 09:57 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>1. Dress Maroons (with an additional dinner dress tie and tails version for
>officers and senior NCO's). The uniform a Marine is most likely to wear a
>**Dress** Cutlass with.  Full Dress Maroons mean ribbons and medals and
>definitely include cutlass and side arm.

The model I'm working with is a Confederate Army Officer's jacket.
Replaces the shiny brass buttons with an alternate fastening method, do the
jacket in a very dark gray with maroon collar patches for rank.  White
trousers with a maroon stripe, polished boots.  Top it off with a maroon
beret, or if your are a SpecOp type, a forest green beret.  Black leather
"Sam Brown" belt to hold up the Cutlass, Dress.

>2. Utility uniform. Grey with maroon highlights. Fatigues. What a Marine
>would wear while aboard ship or while servicing his BD.  Has lots of pockets
>and an equipment belt for stuff.

There would be a variety of these. A Marine might have a set of mechanic
coveralls for doing dirty jobs, and set of undress issue for situations
where he has to look good, but Full dress isn't called for, daily fatigues
much like the modern day BDU..

>5. Battle Dress Maroons. Worn by Marines assigned to the Imperial Guard.
>Worn by Marines anywhere engaged in policing and guarding duties where they
>need to inspire awe as well as kick ass.  The cutlass worn with this uniform
>is definitely not just for show.

Travellers' Digest #9 showed a member of the Marine Guard in some sort of
parade uniform.  For their "dog and pony" (or would that be dog and poni?)
BD, I imagine highly polished maroon and silver.

(I would just like to point out that I managed to misspell "maroon"
everytime I typed it in this message.  Thank you, I'll be here all week.)
- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:23:11
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

At 10:37 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I know it's forbidden cannon, but Traveller Digest did an article on
>"Uniforms of the Terran Occupation," which is all Marine and very long
>term. If it's possible not to contradict that source, it would be nice. 

Go to my Marine ranks page:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/imfrank.html

and you'll see that I have that article and use it. 

>> 3. Combat armor. Used where BD is too much. 
>
>I'd suggest this should be a Combat Environment Suit, possibly with
>clamshell torso armor.  There's too much overlap between real "Combat
>Armor" and BD; both are sealed, spacesuit types of armor.  A trooper in CES
>with a conventional open helmet will be a lot more approachable.  That can
>be a good thing in lots of low intensity conflicts.

agreed.

>> 4. Battle Dress. see GT:SM p61.
>
>No, no, a thousand times no.  This particular battledress is an
>abomination, preferably never to be mentioned again. It's too big, too
>fast, and too heavily armored to be any fun at all.  The stock BD in GT or
>possibly an uprated TL12 version would be perfectly sufficient.  I'd just
>as soon not have Vehicles-style stats for it or only minimal ones, not the
>full write-up they did for the commando-BD in Star Mercs.

Seeing as how everybody seems to hate this, I'm going to do some work with
Vehicles and design some suits.

But I'm not going to design for a PC shooting gallery.  These designs are
going to address some of the major complaints made about the Scout/Commando
dress, mainly that you'd rip off your legs trying to run at full speed.  If
I can lather 800 points of armor on, that's what it will get.  

>> 5. Battle Dress Maroons. Worn by Marines assigned to the Imperial Guard.
>> Worn by Marines anywhere engaged in policing and guarding duties where
>>they need to inspire awe as well as kick ass.  The cutlass worn with this
>>uniform is definitely not just for show.
>
>I'd say that the chameleon circuit in the standard BD should be tunable to
>maroon for dress occasions.  DGP did something along those lines, but it's
>such an obvious idea that it's hard not to include.

Since cammo coatings are avalible in both Traveller and GURPS, it would be
a natural.  I could even see having an onboard-ship pattern with your name,
squad assignment, and drop sequence order in BIG LETTERS front and back, to
assist the Navy crew in loading the Marines into their capsules.

>And let me second the request for hyperdense cutlasses. When driven by
>powered armor strength, they can go through battledress reliably and safely
>(for friendly forces, that is) Marines don't even necessarily have to have
>two blades, since a ST 11 person can, just barely, wield a hyperdense
>cutlass.  Interchangeable fittings, a fancy guard, scabbard, and swordknot
>for dress occasions, would be a lot cheaper.

You really want to carry that thing all the way through a four hour
reception?  Especially if you have to dance with the Duke's wife? (*thud*
*crack* Aiieeee!!!!!)
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

"We were the perfect partners.
Her life was out of a Norman Rockwell painting;
mine was out of a Tim Burton movie."
                          -"Law & Order"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:41:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 09:44 PM 7/1/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>2.  The mandatory investment in Battlesuit takes up 1.4% of the average
>>character's pool of points at character generation.  The total package
>>of skills and advantages costs about 80 points, and has many options built
>>in. This leaves about 60 points for customizing your character to your
>>heart's content.

>This is closer to my complaint.  NO Previous version of Traveller has
>manditory BD skill for marines in character generation.  And if all
>marines use BD every time they go into combat, more would have BD skill
>upon mustering out (Check, one suit of Battledress.  Check, one Fusion
>Gun. And check, BD skill. All issued property has been returned, have a
>good retirement Marine.)

Except this isn't a version of Traveller.  It's the Traveller setting and
flavor ported to GURPS.  Judging GURPS character creation by Traveller
standards is like saying that Traveller is a poor game because it doesn't
do alignments and magic like AD&D.  The two systems are radically different.

For a Traveller character to have the same investment pushed upon him, it
would mean that the CT Marine had *98* other skill levels before taking
Battledress-1.  I have never seen any Traveller character with this many
skills.

>What does this level of skill equate to in the other versions of
>Traveller(CT, MT, TNE, and T4).

The basic investment of 4 points, with a DX 11, gives you Battlesuit-12.
This translates to a 74.1% chance of succeeding at a task with no
modifiers.  Spending 16 points with a DX 11 gives you Battlesuit-14, with a
90.7% chance of succeeding.  How this translates to CT, et al, is left as
an exercise for the reader.
- --
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net - http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand
miles closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules,
and still there are some misfits who continue to insist that there
is no such thing as progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:01:26 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson
"Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
*female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."

	I see that another poster has addressed the sex determination
	issue, so I will just make a point about what sexes are 
	needed. Assuming that you are talking about parthenogenesis
	(unfertilized eggs developing into adults), the males are
	not required.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:05:03 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Actually, six legs *always* require more energy than 4 legs. 
Think about it. :-)"

	I agree with you here if each of the six legs are the
	same size as the four legs. If not, it might get 
	complicated (I'm getting out of my depth). On the other 
	hand, six legs might have advantages under certain 
	conditions that make the extra energy expenditure 
	worthwhile.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:16:54 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"Actually, the increased capabilities are inherent in the 
Langston field, as the humans figure out how to do it (much 
later) from nothing more than observations. "All" they did 
was make it able to expand the field as the absorbed energy 
increased, thus giving it more area to radiate away the 
absorbed energy."

	Nevertheless, this would require an understanding of
	how the Langston field worked. At the very least, one
	would have to know that it lost energy by radiating it.

"They've got an "instinct level" understanding of machinery and
electronics. That wouldn't necessarily be "magic", just a *lot* of
selective breeding plus (perhaps) some genetic engineering."

	In Traveller terms, this would result in bonuses to
	skills such as Mechanical, Electronics, and Engineering,
	but would not lead to ability to redesign a device that
	relies on unfamiliar principals.

"And while they aren't necessarily intelligent, I have to wonder 
if they don't have something similar to a hive mind when they 
are in large groups."

	I do not recall any hints in that direction (but it HAS been
	a long time). What I liked about the Moties was approach
	that one could be "intelligent" at some tasks but fairly
	"unintelligent" at others. I just found the "intelligent"
	extreme that the Moties displayed a little too extreme. Just
	my cr. 0.02.

"Frankly, humanity *doesn't* have any experience with a
symbiote/competitor that isn't intelligent but *can* not only use 
but *make* tools. They wouldn't have to be as bright as a chimp to 
be a *major* hazard."

	True, and the makings of a Traveller adventure!

"Also, there's little evidence of Motie genetic engineering
capabilities. They seem to be *very* weak in the bio-sciences."

	Surprising, given their accomplishments in engineering 
	their own species.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:20:23 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in Gods Eye spoilers)

Joseph Kimball writes:
"The problem with the Moties solving their pregnancy difficulty 
that the crazy eddies HAD solved it a number of times as we 
learn in TMIGE.  Those who used those methods, however, lost 
wars to those who had not used whatever the methods were, since 
they didn't have the population level afterwards to win. What 
ended up happening at the end of GH (spoiler alert)..."
<snipped>

	Once again, this explanation is weak, as humans wars have
	not always been won by the side with the highest birthrate.

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #806
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 807



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re : Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Traveller Auction: DGP, large format GDW, misc.
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (Moties) 
Re: Imperial Marines
Battledress/repair/Line Marines
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Mercenary Doctors
Re: Imperial Marines... (skills)
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Battledress, Hoorah!
Re: CT Skills
YAADA, YAADA [was: YAAA]
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:24:40 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Keven R. Pittsinger
"> Either the Motie Engineer they first encounter or one of the
> watchmakers that come aboard with it takes apart and repairs a notepad
> computer. One of the ship's officers states that it's not *possible,
> because they are a solid block of micro-circuits, and *they* don't
> repair them, they just replace them.

A Watchmaker, IIRC."

	I'm almost certain that it was the first engineer that they 
	met, but my memory has betrayed me in the past (At least, I
	think that I remember that it has... ).

<snipped>
"Accent on *SEEM*.  They have this annoying habit of hiding 
things they don't want outsiders to see.  Also, the modifications 
were made something on the order of a *million* years previous; 
once made, the technology doesn't have to survive, just its 
results."

	Excellent points. Still, as the other technologies were
	stored and recovered, I would have expected the very
	useful biological sciences to be preserved.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:28:57 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"Gut feeling : there is a lack of appropriate solvents for 
boron compounds unless they were combined with carbon or 
silicon to get around the 'boron hydride' problem (they 
react explosively with water, oxygen and most of the solvents 
I listed later in the post)."

	What about replacing C with N? I realize that I may be
	waxing ignorant here, but I am trying to explore the
	possibilities.

<snipped>
"Gentlemen, I'd like a little bit of input into what to cover 
next. Any suggestions?"

	The TML is hopping right now, as are my personal and
	professional lives, so I'm having trouble keeping up.
	As soon as I get a chance, I'll spew forth some ideas.
	Thanks for your efforts!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:44:24 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Actually, eco-systems *do* compete. That's how we get things 
like the progression from grassland to "climax forest" after 
a fire."

	That is how it appears to casual observers who have not
	studied the phenomenon. Individuals compete, and
	succession is simply the result of that competition. I 
	should point out that an ecosystem includes organisms
	and the physical environment in which they live. Thus,
	if you believe that ecosystems compete, you believe that
	water competes with soil. In the sense that evolution uses 
	"compete," this is certainly not true.

An area will have the ecosystem best suited to it. But some 
ecosystems change the conditions such that *other* eco-systems 
are now better suited. Thus the "succesion" phenomenon."

	That depends on what you mean by "best suited." Most
	organisms? Highest biomass? Most stable system? 
	Succession occurs when the community of organisms
	changes conditions such that other organisms may now
	successfully compete with and eventually replace the
	organisms originally there.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson writes:
> Leonard Erickson
> "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
> *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
> doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."

Hm...hadn't noticed this initially (sort of skimming this thread), but if we're
talking about alien races, this assumption is false -- you can set up genetics
so that either parent is responsible for sex determination, and as I recall
there's species on earth which are determined by the mother.
> 
>      I see that another poster has addressed the sex determination
>      issue, so I will just make a point about what sexes are 
>      needed. Assuming that you are talking about parthenogenesis
>      (unfertilized eggs developing into adults), the males are
>      not required.

Well, there's the option of multiple reproductive schemes (i.e. both sexual and
asexual reproduction are possible).  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson writes:
> Leonard Erickson
> "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
> *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
> doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."

Hm...hadn't noticed this initially (sort of skimming this thread), but if we're
talking about alien races, this assumption is false -- you can set up genetics
so that either parent is responsible for sex determination, and as I recall
there's species on earth which are determined by the mother.
> 
>      I see that another poster has addressed the sex determination
>      issue, so I will just make a point about what sexes are 
>      needed. Assuming that you are talking about parthenogenesis
>      (unfertilized eggs developing into adults), the males are
>      not required.

Well, there's the option of multiple reproductive schemes (i.e. both sexual and
asexual reproduction are possible).  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:47:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Traveller Auction: DGP, large format GDW, misc.

  Sorry for the bandwidth if this doesn't interest you, but some of you might
want these items; updates will be to bidders or interested individuals only.

Rules: [all e-mail to:  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca   (_not_ the TML, please)]
1) Purchaser pays all shipping charges (i.e., insurance is extra); Canada
Post (preferred) or UPS. Postage would be $2+ US per book ($1.75/LBB) (for small
shipments in bubble-pak envelopes - less per unit for more books; more if UPS.
2) Payment by _US Postal Service_ Postal Money Order, unless agreed otherwise.
 Items will be shipped only after payment is received. 
3) Minimum bids are listed; all amounts are $US. For simplicities sake I'll
 e-mail updates to bidders on each Monday, Thursday, and Saturday, and close
 the auction on Saturday, July 17th, 2300 PST.
4) Condition of items varies considerably; please read individual description.

GDW / DGP - Traveller, large (8.5'x11") format:
$12  Alien Module 1: Aslan - 40p - excellent condition
$15  Alien Module 8: Darrians - 48p - very good condition; cover wear
$12  Alien Realms - 48p - good condition; cover wear
$10  Mission on Mithril/Shadows - 16p - fair condition (highlighting, etc.)
$20  The Traveller Adventure - 154p - good condition
$7  Referee's Manual - 104p - excellent condition
$8  Referee's Companion - 96p - excellent condition
$8  Imperial Encyclopedia - 96p - very good condition
$7  Players' Manual - 104p - excellent condition
$6  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora Sector - 16p+color foldout cover: good cond.
$10  COACC - 96p - very good condition
$20  Solomani & Aslan - 104p - near-mint condition
$18  Vilani & Vargr - 104p - very good condition
$20  Starship Operator's Manual - 66p - excellent condition
$12  Survival Margin - 104p - very good condition
$12  Hard Times: A MegaTraveller Sourcebook - 96p - very good condition

 GDW - Classic Traveller LBB's:
$7  Supp 6 - 76 Patrons - 48p - good condition
$8  Supp 7 - Traders and Gunboats - 48p - fair condition; cover wear
$6  Supp 8 - Library Data A-M - 48p - good condition; cover wear
$6  Adv. 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station - 54p - ? condition (see following)
$6  Adv. 13 - Signal GK - 48p - ? condition (see following)
 ? - the last two items suffered water damage while in mint condition in a store
room. Nasty cosmetic damage to bottom 1-1.5" of each; no content loss in A.11,
but A.13 has lost up to a dozen words from many pages; still fully playable.

 Chaosium - Ringworld
$50  Ringworld (1984) box set & Ringworld Companion (80p) - near-mint condition

        Steven Hudson - shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:56:43 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Jory Earl writes:
"Small insects have open ciculatory systems and a passive 
breathing arrangement thru tubes in their carapace that lead 
right to the bloodstream.  This is why man-sized insects are 
impossible.  they'd suffocate without some other form of non-
passive oxygenation."

	First, many insects actively assist the exchange of air
	through their tracheal systems. Second, there are 
	organisms on Terra that have even more limited 
	respiratory systems than insects, but are as big as 
	whales. The activity level of the organism is important,
	as are other things.

"Multi-faceted eyes work great on small scale, but a man-sized 
critter would be nearly blind."

	Why do you think this? I haven't thought about it, but
	I don't know any reason why a compound eye would be a
	problem for a woman-sized animal. Of course, I cannot 
	think of a reason that an organism with an exoskeleton
	would have to have a compound eye either.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 11:09:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (Moties) 

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in Gods Eye spoilers)
.
>learn in TMIGE.  Those who used those methods, however, lost 
>wars to those who had not used whatever the methods were, since 
>they didn't have the population level afterwards to win. What 
>ended up happening at the end of GH (spoiler alert)..." <snipped>
>
>	Once again, this explanation is weak, as humans wars have
>	not always been won by the side with the highest birthrate.

  Not individual wars, but if the Motie characters are off-handedly referring
to imprecise history/myth then it certainly does apply to things like the
apparent advantage of settled agricultural populations versus hunter-gatherers
wrt population density limitations (i.e., was the displacement and eventual
supplantation of the latter necessarily overwhelmingly violent?).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:07:15 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:54:01 -0300
>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [long]
>
>At 06:48 PM 01/07/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>>>A peace-keeping force in the
>>>Imperium might be a "Sword of Damocles" type situation, where just the
>>>knowledge that there are some real tough bastards in orbit might be enough
>>>to set in motion treaties and peace talks and the like... Even if they
>>>*don't* go in and destroy everything in sight.
>>
>>And if the local pooh-bah's name is Kim Il-Sung? or Saddam Hussein? or
>>Mu'ammar al-Qadhafi? Not everyone is equally impressed with threats, and
>>_all_ wars result from a miscalculation on somebody's part.
>
>The problem with
>these dictators is that they know that there is a un-written ROE amongst
>nations that says "no assassinating the other guy's President".

Totally irrelevant. The point is, each of these "gentlemen" provoked an
armed conflict with an overwhelmingly superior force; in the case of Kim
Il-Sung, with the only power ever to use nuclear weapons in combat, at a
time when it was not at all clear that they wouldn't be used again. They
clearly either did not expect to lose, considered the potential rewards
worth the risk, or proceeded from some irrational set of criteria. These
same considerations could apply in any confrontation with the Imperial
Marines. Ergo, the mere threat of overwhelming force is not always sufficient.

[I agree with Anthony, by the way, that if it were possible to assassinate
these individuals, someone would probably have done so. In particular, the
Israelis have consistently demonstrated the capability and the will to
arrange fatal "accidents" for their adversaries, US diplomatic policies not
withstanding. The fact that Saddam Hussein survived after directly
attacking Tel Aviv says to me that he was simply not vulnerable to those
tactics.]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:43:30 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Battledress/repair/Line Marines

>It's in the description: Ground Pressure Low (1,065 lb/sf); it had to be
>calculated to arrive at Off-Road Speed. This is the same rating as the M1
>tank in VE2 (p. 141). There appears to have been a deliberate effort on the
>part of the designer to reduce ground pressure by making the legs huge in
>proportion to the rest of the body: 

>	200lb pilot	Commando BD	increase
>Head	0.5 cf		1 cf		x2
>Body	2 cf		6 cf		x3
>Arms	0.2 cf each	0.4 cf each	x2
>Legs	0.5 cf each	2.6 cf each	x5.2

>So forget about all those illustrations of cool-looking, man-shaped
>battledress. When you consider that there is a limit to how wide the stance
>of the trooper within the suit can be, and remember that the volume of
>armor is *not* anywhere taken into account, you can see that all that
>excess volume has to go on the front, back, and sides of the legs. This
>thing is a troll, with bulbous legs, a barrel chest, and tiny (in
>proportion) head and arms. Add the flight pack, and you get a hunchback as
>well.

>Someone asked about maintenance: by GURPS rules (p. VE146), the Commando BD
>requires 4 hours of maintenance after 32.4 hours of use. Call it 4 hours
>out of every 36. This means that your Commando BD force would require one
>mechanic for every 3-6 suits.

	More like around 4 suits presuming 16 on, 8 off for wartime work and
we eat while fixing the suit.....
	And that Commando suit uses drekloads of batteries, 1 per hour. It
should at least have had two, that way you could hot swap. Otherwise you're
stuck in a dead suit in the middle of a possible firefight.

>Regular Improved BD (p. GT118) requires 4
>hours of maintenance after 80 hours of use, or one mechanic for 8-16 suits.
>The variation depends on how many hours you work your mechanics a day, from
>8 to 16.

	Much better off here.
	Which means at least two sets of suits per Marine.

	BTW, on that reference to 'ALL' marines having BD. Please note that
reference is to 'LINE' Marines, not necessarily others, therefore Ship's
Troops, Commando Units and Garrison Marines do not necessarily have BD.


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 15:15:48 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

> 
> "Multi-faceted eyes work great on small scale, but a man-sized 
> critter would be nearly blind."
> 
>         Why do you think this? I haven't thought about it, but
>         I don't know any reason why a compound eye would be a
>         problem for a woman-sized animal. Of course, I cannot 
>         think of a reason that an organism with an exoskeleton
>         would have to have a compound eye either.
> 
> Peez

Something I read on Xenobiology a long time ago.  Perhaps it was Poul
Anderson's "Is There Life on Other Worlds".
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:09:54 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]

An easuer way is to install AdsOff.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 01 July 1999 21:00
Subject: Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]


>It's simple...just turn off Java and JavaScript.  I only turn them on when I
>go to a site where I find I need them.  I love seeing the code for a pop-up
>show up as raw HTML on the bottom of a Geocities page, knowing I'm thwarting
>them, if only ever-so-slightly.  For a long time before I learned that
>trick, I actually kept a list of Geocities pop-up sponsors, and deliberately
>avoided visiting them.  I'd skip Geocities completely, but too many people
>have too much cool stuff there.
>
>Maybe not for much longer.
>
>Jim
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:14:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Christopher Thrash wrote:
> 

> [I agree with Anthony, by the way, that if it were possible to assassinate
> these individuals, someone would probably have done so. In particular, the
> Israelis have consistently demonstrated the capability and the will to
> arrange fatal "accidents" for their adversaries, US diplomatic policies not
> withstanding. The fact that Saddam Hussein survived after directly
> attacking Tel Aviv says to me that he was simply not vulnerable to those
> tactics.]

The Israelis have never assasinated the sitting head of any state, nor
have they tried, AFAIK. They have assasinated lower-level, quasi-state
functionaries, like that PLO member some years back, and terrorists,
such as "the Engineer", but even the craziest of the Mossad ccowboys
would know better than to try against someone like Assad, Hussein or
Ghadafi. To do so would merely precipitate the kind of all-out war
they're trying to avoid.

Whacking a TED is only a viable strategy if your country isn't on the
same planet ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 14:03:00 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>>>> (begin quoted material)
If you design a Marine, he *will* know how to use Battledress.  It's a
required skill in the template.  If you decide the rest of his career was
spent as a file clerk at a logistical dump, then his skills will reflect
that choice.  But someday, he might find himself in a position to use the
half-forgotten skill.

- - -- 

Doug Berry
>>>> (end quoted material)
In other words, an Imperial Marine in GT will have the CT equivalent of
Battle Dress - 0.  This is enough to avoid negative DMs when using this
equipment, but doesn't confer any other advantages.  Not understanding
GURPS very well, it sounds like each IM will have 1 or 2 points of BD
skill required in the template.  It also sounds like the template will
probably  strongly suggest that there be more points spent on BD skill.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 15:10:05 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> P.S. Who remembers the bad guys whose soldiers' uniforms were a color
> that Jim DiGriz realized after a while was the same as dried blood?

They were the Cliaandians, and (IIRC), their uniforms were not quite the
same color as dried blood; rather they were the color blend of half
arterial red and half venous blue blood.

(_All_ Cliaanidans [including the "civilians"] had color-coded
uniforms....)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 15:19:24 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Mercenary Doctors

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> But just stop and think what a *really* upset doctor with facilities
> capable of things like *routine* curing planetwide plagues can do to
> the people he's upset with.

Haviland Tuf, anyone?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:24:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines... (skills)

>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...
.
>Thinking about it in game terms, every skill level or character point you
>put into battledress skill is a skill level or character point that doesn't
>go to something else. IIRC, any actions that you take in battledress are
>(more or less) limited to your skill level in battledress. So it would
>behoove combat personnel to have lots of ability in battledress -- in other
>words, specialized training.

  FWIW, at least battledress is using similar mobility skills to those that
most people learn in childhood; a battlepod pilot (for those who hate mecha
& b-suits) would probably have to learn an "armoured vehicle warfare" skill
in addition to vehicle and gunnery/heavy weapons skills - _none_ of which
are of any use dismounted!

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:26:35 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

>My thought was that I cannot use FTL to communicate with a _ship_ moving
>at near C. I can only jump from system to system at near C velocities.

You can use FTL to communicate with a ship just as easily as a planet. The
only requirement is that you be able to predict its location at the correct
time.

>I myself also do not get the math, but it seems to me that if I travel
>past a world and recieve a message, all this is taking place within
>the light cone. Now I jump to a system (FTL travel) moving at close to 0
>relative to my origin and radio that information to them. I don't see
>this as disrupting anything.

True, you need to be in the light cone of anything in order to receive a
message. This is easy enough to arrange. You can easily communicate with
someone while moving at relativistic velocities; just compensate for the
blue-shift and time dilation.

>The only questions I have are - is the jump
>week relative to the ship, or to the system?

This is a good question. If the "week in jump" is relative to the ship,
ships moving at relativistic speeds will take longer than one week to jump
relative to the outside universe. If it's relative to the outside, the
occupants will be in jump less than one subjective week.

Actually, this opens up an enormous can of worms because distance is
dilated as well as time by relativity. A ship moving at relativistic speeds
sees the universe contracted in front of it; at about 0.9c a star 2 parsecs
away is only 1 parsec in the ship's frame of reference. This means you
could jump 2, 4, even a hundred parsecs in a scout ship going fast enough,
though it would seem to take proportionally more time from the outside's
frame of reference.

To remain most compatible with canon I suggest that all jumps be relative
to the background stars. This means that jumps will take approximately 1
week and require about 10% of the ship's displacement in fuel for each
parsec between all destinations that are not in relative motion near the
speed of light. From a ship moving at relativistic speed's frame of
reference, however, jumps take more fuel but less time the faster you go. A
ship moving at 0.9c will require 20% its displacement mass of fuel to go 1
ship parsec (which is 2 parsecs to the outside universe), but will get
there in 3.5 days subjective time (but still 1 week to the outside
universe).

Some have proposed making "jump space" a separate frame of reference which
is the same regardless of velocity. I would avoid this. The notion of a
privileged frame of reference which is the same for all observers violates
relativity and apparently has significant consequences to the laws of
physics.

>Of course, in the real world it would take 3.24 years to get the
>information, but if the 1 week jump is 1 week relative to the system,
>then it takes just as long to transmit the information in a near C
>ship as it does in a 0 speed ship.

It does from the ship's frame of reference, but not from the outside
universe's. The problem is that objects with relativistic velocities have
different time axes; "1 week" is different things to the ship and to the
outside universe. As I posted before, it is possible to create a trajectory
in space-time such that a ship can experience outside events in the reverse
order to the rest of the universe. Hence the "time travel" paradox.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:27:16 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress, Hoorah!

>It's important to remember that in the Traveller universe battledress has
>been known and used for over two thousand years.

Is this right? I thought Augmented BD was TL 13, therefore not generally
available until milieu 200 or so. Please don't tell me you think the Rule
of Man had TL 13+...

This is important because my campaign is in milieu 0, and IMTU ABD is
extremely rare, cutting edge tech, and marines generally use armored combat
environment suits.

As an aside, would everyone writing for GURPS Traveller please consider
including rules for earlier Traveller milieu? Not everyone's campaign takes
place after the 5FW.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 11:58:19 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

> From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>

> Yes! Advanced Classic Traveller is alive in my game world. In 1975 I was
> introduced to Traveller and have been involved in role-playing and refing a
> Traveller universe ever since. I like the way Traveller developed [deletion]
> system. Ive spent hundreds of hours during the past twenty four years [deletion]
> Comments please!

Traveller was first published in 1977.  Were you playtesting it
beforehand? or how do you explain the references to "1975" and "the past
twenty four years"?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:04:14 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: YAADA, YAADA [was: YAAA]

> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> Subject: YAAA
 
>         ROFLMAO ....    Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A$$ Off
>         YAA     ...........     Yet Another Annoying Acronym

I think it should be YAADA:  Yet Another Damned Annoyed Acronym, so that
we can end sentences with YAADA, YAADA.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:14:46 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
 
> And I want to see the look on the player's face when he finds out what
> he just "shook" when greeting the alien ambassador. :-)

That would be the case if he shook hands with the Hiver ambassador. 
Remember that the Hivers are always sending delegations around within
their own empire specifically to "shake hands" and spread genetic
material around.  Sex for the Hivers is always totally casual, even
anonymous (and child-rearing is left to mother nature).  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:25:16 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >
> >> I suspect that the "recoil" answer is given because it's not *possible*
> >> to explain the feelings to someone who hasn't been there. And that's
> >> why the question is asinine. Any sort of *meaningful* answer is far to
> >> long and complex for a soundbite.

I wrote:
> > Why is a question asinine if it can't be answered meaningully in a
> > soundbite?  If a question calls for a long, complex, and meaningful
> > answer, it sounds like a very interesting and useful question to me.
> 
> My (somewhat buried) point was that modern "reporters", especially TV
> reporters don't *want* long, complex answers. They want a quick, simple
> answer. A "soundbite". 

I agree that tv reporters want soundbites.  Moreover, a reporter who
asks a question that calls for a long and complex answer but expects a
soundbite in response is herself asinine.  The question itself, however,
is not asinine.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #807
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 808



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: CT Skills
Re: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc
Re: Imperial Marines...
Edict regarding Imperial Marines
OT, sort of
Re: Imperial Marines [long]
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines...
[SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Hexagons
Re: Imperial Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 12:43:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc

> From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
> Subject: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc
> 
> As a contribution to the very interesting BD thread, I'd like to refer
> folks to a comic book limited series of a few years ago: Shadow Empires by
> Chris Moeller.  It follows the leader of a battalion(?) built around a

This was excellent.  Apparently Moeller did a comic book of his own
Traveller universe. 

> I'd also take a look at another series of
> his, more recent: Sheva's War.  This story is set a few subsectors over
> and follows a noblewomen in charge of troops when the stuff hits the fan.

When was this published, and by whom?  I'm going to have to find it.  Is
is also a mini-series? if so, how many parts?  

> Etiquette question: I have some old CT and MT books (mostly DGP) that I
> want to sell.  Thought I'd give people on this list a chance before I put
> them up on Ebay.  Have I said too much already for politeness? 

On the Traveller Webring is a web site with a section devoted to buying
and selling stuff; I think it's downport.com, but I'm not sure.

> Judge's Guild is back, and some of their Traveller stuff is available
> again.  Is anyone familiar with their work?  I have seen very little.  How
> is the quality/usefulness?

In answer to your last question:  mixed.

> Thanks for the responses re: sandcasters.

I could never figure out how sandcasters could work.  If you run
auto-evade or maneuver-evade, you leave your sand cloud instantly.  

If the other side is going to shoot a beam weapon at you, your first
knowledge of it is when their active sensors lock on you.  Is that time
enough to cast sand before the radar or whatever bounces back to the
other ship and it fires its beam weapon?  

If the other side is going to launch a missile, you have more time
because the missile isn't going at light speed, but sandcasters were
marketed as anti-laser technology.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:29:55 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

>The power required to constantly run a grav belt at TL15 or less makes the
>image of the BD trooper constantly hovering a few centimeters above the
>ground unlikely.

As has been pointed out in the "battle pod" thread, contragrav takes
considerably less power to move the same mass than motorized walker legs do.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:32:56 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>Traveller was first published in 1977.  Were you playtesting it
>beforehand? or how do you explain the references to "1975" and "the past
>twenty four years"?


C'mon, give the poor guy a break here! He was off by two years. Sheesh. It
happens. ;)

Besides, do you *really* know who he is? He may in fact be from an alternate
universe where Traveller was the *first* RPG and GDW is now the juggernaut
of the roleplaying game industry.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:26:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> > Thanks for the responses re: sandcasters.
> 
> I could never figure out how sandcasters could work.  If you run
> auto-evade or maneuver-evade, you leave your sand cloud instantly.  

Well, use gravetics to hold it in place.  The other problem is that any sand
cloud dense enough to degrade beam weapons in any important manner will
completely blind you.
> 
> If the other side is going to shoot a beam weapon at you, your first
> knowledge of it is when their active sensors lock on you.  Is that time
> enough to cast sand before the radar or whatever bounces back to the
> other ship and it fires its beam weapon?  

Depends on range and design.  Given BL hex sizes, at ranges of more than 1-2
hexes, probably.  Unfortunately, most likely they're going to be continually
targeting you with active sensors, not merely when they're ready to fire.
> 
> If the other side is going to launch a missile, you have more time
> because the missile isn't going at light speed, but sandcasters were
> marketed as anti-laser technology.  

Oh, sandcasters are perfectly wonderful anti-KKM technology.  Then again,
there's not a serious shortage of such technology. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:54:45 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

[I have't followed the whole debate, but it does seem there is a
misconception about templates....]

One thing that should be remembered is that temlates are completely
optional.  Putting a required skill in a template simply means
that the author of the template thought that players who
want to have a marine should buy that skill for his/her PC.  It
doesn't mean, for example, every marine, including NPC ones that never
appear in adventuring situations, will have that skill and I
think one should be careful drawing broader background inferences
from templates.

It should also be remembered that CT character creation was designed
to make PC for adventures (as are the templates), not delineate the skill
set of every member of a service branch.  They aren't going to take
characters who spend all their time peeling potatoes into acount much
(since they aren't interesting PCs).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 20:19:58 GMT
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Edict regarding Imperial Marines

As of my latest E-Bay acquisition, I have now cornered the Imperial Marine
miniature commodity, and now own 50% plus one of all of the figures ever
produced.  Therefore, I am the final arbiter of rules and canon
declarations regarding the Imperial Marines.

Item One - I do not want to repaint my miniatures.  No BD color changes
will be permitted.  Mine are red or maroon, with green or yellow trim
(officers get yellow).
Item Two - All Imperial Marines in BD are also fitted with an odd, oval
shaped base.  This may be a Grav Sled for additional mobility.
Item Three - All squads of Imperial Marines have one prone trooper at all
times.
Item Four - When being transported by the Imperial Navy, all Imperial
Marines are surrounded by a protective blue or green foam material.

Doug - please be sure to add these items at once!

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:10:57 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: OT, sort of

If you fill in all the occurrences of 2300 AD with  Traveller 2300 it should
fit better here.
Sorry to waste the time.

"I am recruiting some more players for a 2300 AD pbem.  The game has just
started and as usual, a few players have dropped or disappeared.
The game is set in 2298 and the players have been hired as the crew of an
exploration ship.  This ship is funded by a megacorp and is subject to great
deal of interest from other nations and their respective intelligence
agencies"

If interested, contact me off list
redroach@flex.net
tvv
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:08:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [long]

>>Remember, Imperial marines can be dropped just about anywhere on a planet in
>>a very short time, if their "mothership" is in orbit. ... If the marines are
>>in orbit, they can land and wipe out combatants in a matter of hours,
>>possibly even before a large battle is over.
>
>If there *is* a large battle, I agree 100%. But if the Marines are dropping
>into a Northern Ireland gone bad? Sure, they would have no trouble picking
>out the British Army -- but are those really the guys they _need_ to find,
>even just to put an end to the immediate fighting? This is a much more
>likely scenario than a stand-up fight.

I think we're missing some equipment that Doug hasn't mentioned, but no
doubt knows about (and has probably included): GTL12 chemical sniffers and
GTL12 point defense radar.

When I was running a noble in a MegaTraveller campaign, I made extensive
use of high-tech gear. My forensics kit could sniff damn-near anything. If
you accept that MT is canon, then the Imperial Marines can do the same
thing: send squads out with a tech to sniff out the bomb factories.

Likewise, there was an item in the news within the last couple of years
about a system that could track back and locate the source of a sniper's
bullet. Add in GTL12 sensors and a dedicated computer, and any Marine squad
on patrol can probably incinerate a sniper.

(I'm also not cerain what the Marines would be doing in Northern Ireland.
With all due respect to my Irish ancestors, it's hardly the kind of planet
that would warrant Imperial attention.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:08:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

>Robert Prior wrote:
>
>> Um, a request for legal information here, Bloo.
>>
>> What about material posted under the old agreement?  Could they legally
>> claim that it is now theirs, because they changed the rules?  Would they
>> have to leave a waiting period for people to close down their sites?
>
>The old agreement is binding until both parties agree to the new one.
>
>They made a clarification today, that loggin in to remove your
>pages, etc., didn't equate to acceptance of the old terms.  IIRC,
>someone else said that there was still an easy way to access Geocity pages
>without agreeing to the new terms.
>
>--
>Bloo

I presume you mean that "logging in to remove your pages doesn't equate to
acceptance of the NEW terms."  I'll check it out.  Thanks for the
information.

On a related note, anyone want to host a collection of Traveller vehicles?
Already HTMLized, although you'll want to remove the Geocities banner tags.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:08:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

>On 01 Jul, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> As to the roles of Imperial Marines, in my interpretation of Classic
>> Traveller canon they have the following main roles:
>
>> 1) shipboard security (best done in combat armour with light weapons)
>
>I'd have thought a marine in BD, wielding a cutlass, would do even less
>damage to the ship.
>
>Phil Kitching

Not a cutlass. Claymore or battleaxe, now _those_ are deadly.

When the Azhanti High Lightning rules came out I re-equipped my Marines
with claymores. The ballistic-weave kilts and bagpipes were just to strike
terror into the hearts of the opposition.  I mean, how would you react when
an armoured Scotsman wades into your midst, merrily slicing off important
body parts?  :-)

(Seriously, the battle-axe, when wielded by an enhanced-strength trooper,
was a better _close_quarters_ weapon than most ranged weapons... PROVIDED
that its wielder didn't have to survive several turns of weapons fire to
close.)

IIRC, Gary Gregor ordered his Marine escort to play "Will Ye Nae Come Back
Again?" to the retreating enemy, just to rub salt in their wounds. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:42:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 03:29 PM 6/27/99 +1000, you wrote:

>I kind of find this as something straight out of a comic book (I'm not a big
>comic fan you may gather).  It really doesn't sound realistic to me... I
>could be wrong however, I know other's won't agree with me.

I was showing this thread to a friend who is a Vietnam vet, and he wondered
what you'd think of their habit of calling in artillery fire on suspected
snipers, "just in case."  He told me that the even napalmed single snipers
if they got annoying enough.

>To me, this gets back to the perfect universe, throwing out all those
>adventure seeds about corrupt officials or the syphoning of funds for one
>project to boost another, less palatable project.  Why?  Because the money
>always gets through to where it is going and therefore, no corruption in
>that regard... a perfect universe?

Nobody is going to skim all 2.5 billion!  Whay happens is that a suit that
should cost Cr. 300,000 per unit is sold at 310,000 per uit, and the
Imperial offcial involved and the contractor split the mark-up.  If you
sell just enough suits to equip a regiment, you've made 25 million credits!

Selling sub-standard material to the Imperium is a good way to end up dead
or on a Prison Planet for the rest of your miserable life.

Why should the Imperium hide project funding?  They're not responsible to
the people!  Nobody is going to elect a new Emperor.  You need BCr 17.1 for
a project?  The Navy allocates it in their research and deleopment funds.
They probably spend more on decor for the Officer's Clubs.

>> That's why they are used only as assault troops.  Army troops do the
>> consolidation thing.

>I'm sure that in WWII, US Marines were used as plain old grunts at times
>(not purely for beach assaults and such -- as storm troopers), who spent
>weeks/months trudging through swamps and jungles clearing out enemy pockets
>of resistance.  I don't see the IM's doing the assault thing then saying,
>"It's knock-off time... where's the army?"

It'll be more like "Where the &!@@#%* is the damn Army!?"

If the Marines are a shock force, that's what they'll do.  They don't have
the long-term staying power that an Army Brigade or Division has.  That's
the trade off:

Marines: 
  Pro: easily redeployed, quick response time, overwhelming firepower.
  Con: limited endurance, lack of flexibility

Army:
  Pro: Very flexible, equipped for long haul
  Con: slow response time

>I know some turretheads that would stoutly disagree with you here.  History
>also shows that vehicle crews who have lost their vehicles were quite
>capable of taking up a small arm and fighting alongside the grunts.  Tobrok
>was just one example, when the city was under seige, vehicle crews defended
>on foot after losing their vehicles or running out of ammo for them.  I
>personally think you are selling IM's short.

I know some treadheads who think that they are invulnerable when buttoned
up.  I know some pilots who think that WWII was won with the bombing
campaign.  

The fact is that infantry skills are hard, and even the best tanker is
going to be a mediocre infantryman at best.  
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:45:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

At 01:31 PM 7/1/99 +1000, you wrote:

>In comic style... I'm assuming the power doesn't run out until after the
>battle is over?  Or unless the plot device dictates it?

The basic Battledress in GT runs for 88 hours, 53 minutes on a single E
cell.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:59:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 02:03 PM 7/2/99 -0600, you wrote:

>In other words, an Imperial Marine in GT will have the CT equivalent of
>Battle Dress - 0.  This is enough to avoid negative DMs when using this
>equipment, but doesn't confer any other advantages.  Not understanding
>GURPS very well, it sounds like each IM will have 1 or 2 points of BD
>skill required in the template.  It also sounds like the template will
>probably  strongly suggest that there be more points spent on BD skill.

Exactly.

A combat monster Marine would get best results by buying his DX up to 13
(30 points) and buying Battlesuit at DX+4 (24 points).  This gets his
Battlesuit-17 at only 30 points more than the basic DX 11/DX+1 Marine (54
points vs. 24 points).

That's still only 37% of the possible 145 points avalible to a "Hero
Material" character, and the DX 13 helps you with all physical skills,
reducing the cost of getting better scores.
- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 14:04:33 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

At 09:31 AM 7/2/99 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>*cough*.  Laugh.  And there's still a Darrian homeworld?  Hell, there's still a
>regular star there?  Nothing this side of a supernova is that powerful, and it
>will completely clear out the solar system and eliminate most of the outer
>layers of the star.

The destructive effect was from an EMP frying all electrical/electronic
stuff within a couple of parsecs.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:23:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>One thing that should be remembered is that temlates are completely
>optional.  Putting a required skill in a template simply means
>that the author of the template thought that players who
>want to have a marine should buy that skill for his/her PC.  It
>doesn't mean, for example, every marine, including NPC ones that never
>appear in adventuring situations, will have that skill and I
>think one should be careful drawing broader background inferences
>from templates.

This should probably be stated, then.  I realize it probably is, in the
main rules or one of the compendia, but many of us use GT for source
material only, and others will have missed that little detail.

OTOH, I think Doug's intention was that all Imperial Marines can use BD,
just as all US Marines can use a rifle. But I could be wrong here.



>It should also be remembered that CT character creation was designed
>to make PC for adventures (as are the templates), not delineate the skill
>set of every member of a service branch.  They aren't going to take
>characters who spend all their time peeling potatoes into acount much
>(since they aren't interesting PCs).

And this was forgotten by the chap who wrote a Journal article about the
population of the Traveller universe. Even as a young lad, when I read that
I wondered whether GDW was pulling my leg or desperate for articles.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:23:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

Doug, I suggest that you have some sidebars about _other_ Marine services.
How are Zhodani Marines equipped? Solomani?  Aslan?  What about the Sylean
Marines during the Consolidation Wars? (This last could be done with a
historical walk-through.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:29:58 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Steven Hudson writes:
"Not individual wars, but if the Motie characters are off-
handedly referring to imprecise history/myth then it certainly 
does apply to things like the apparent advantage of settled 
agricultural populations versus hunter-gatherers wrt population 
density limitations (i.e., was the displacement and eventual
supplantation of the latter necessarily overwhelmingly violent?)."

	The hormonal Motie birth-control seems to have been a
	relatively advanced science/tech achievement, since the 
	whole problem was so difficult to fix. Thus, I got the 
	impression that the birth-controlled populations were
	loosing out much later than the transition from hunter-
	gatherer to agrarian (Come to think of it, did Moties
	make this transition? Originally, or in the various 
	cycles?).
	Hmmmmm... points to ponder.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:51:51 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Robert Prior wrote:

> On a related note, anyone want to host a collection of Traveller vehicles?
> Already HTMLized, although you'll want to remove the Geocities banner tags.


I would, but <gulp>, I'm running a Geocities Site.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:39:18 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

Body centred

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 02 July 1999 20:28
Subject: Re: Hexagons


>In mail you write:
>
>>> > Observation: While dinking around with hex paper and polyhedrons, I
>>> > noticed that apparently twenty tetrahedrons make an icosahedron, and
>>> > as far as I can tell this can be continued as a pattern out from each
>>> > exterior point making twelve more icosahedrons intersecting the
>>> > first, and so on.
>>>
>>> Nope. If you have enough 4 sided dice you'll find that you *cannot*
>>> construct an icosahedron out of tetrahedrons. There will be gaps.
>>> Significant ones.
>>>
>>> Tetrahedra cannot be used to "fill" space. Cubes can, and so can a
>>> *mix* of tetrahedra and octahedra. No other regular polyhedrons will
>>> "fill space".
>>
>> You can also stack spheres.  They did it all the time with cannon shot.
>> Yes, there are gaps,  but if we make the analogy to starcharts, then each
>> sphere can be concidered the outer boundary of a star system, about half a
>> parsec out (I know that's WAY past the kuiper belt but its  the halfway mark
>> between adjacent systems).   Note that switching to this system for
>> starcharts puts 12 spheres adjacent (6 around plus 3 on top and 3 beneath)
>> rather than the customary 6 hexes.
>
>You *can* stack spheres, but for maps or co-ordinate systems, gaps are
>a no-no.
>
>Also, they recently proved that the densest packing of spheres in 3d
>space is cubic. I forget whether it is "face centered" or "body
>centered". But it's essentially the stack you get with layers like this:
>
>1
>4
>9
>16
>
>In other words, a square grid, with alternate layers offset 50%. Oddly,
>hex grids are equivalent to "staggered square" type grids. So stacked
>hex maps (stacked with the hexes on top of each other) actually make
>sense.
>
>Just like the old Star Force: Alpha Centauri "light-zulus".
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 18:11:46 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: IM stuff
>
>>It's goanna be a lot more complex IMO.
>
>
><Shrug> Maybe, maybe not. It's going to depend on many different factors.
>Terrain is a big one, technological sophistication of the combatants, etc...

Most of the time, everything is complex.

>
>It's an assumption that even Mercenary makes and spells out on the very
>first page:
>
>"Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of
>arms, with Imperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to
>effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of
>conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the
>realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy
>of the area to Imperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with
>*speed and overwhelming force*" (Emphasis mine)
>
>(Book 4: Mercenary, p.1, Introduction)

Well, first of all I'm not sure that the people that wrote this actually
did the numbers on how much force the Imperium actually has at it's disposal.

>
>Now, I'm not going to presume to speak for Marc, Loren, Frank, nor any of
>the earliest Traveller authors. However, it seems to me that even from the
>early point when Mercenary was written (1978) that this was the intended
>concept.
>
>No. Let me rephrase that. It was essential to the creation of the Third
>Imperium as we know it. Upon rereading the introduction it's obvious that
>this is the rationale for why mercenary campaigns are possible at all.

No. 'Good wars' are fine. 'Bad wars' arent. 

The Imperium could stop a 'bad war' outright, but sometimes the Imperium
could use a much smaller amount of resources to turn a potentially bad war
into a good war.

>
>Now, I know that Frank Chadwick doesn't mention the Imperial marines
>specifically here. In point of fact, it would appear that the Imperium
>setting had not yet matured to the level we think of it now. I cite the
>following comment, from the same page: "Traveller assumes a remote
>centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium),
>possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to
>the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all
>levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm."

The overwhelming majority of the Imperium is within 3 weeks travel by
jump-4 ships of a naval base.

>
>I'm not sure how the Imperium would react to such a situation... or if it
>would, in fact, actually be a violation of the Imperial rules of war.

OK. Ignore a regional conflict like Vietnam. Take World War 2 in 1940 -
involving most of the important states on the planet, and both sides are
enthusiastically trying to destroy the other side's industrial base. Does
the Imperium intervene completely ("You blokes break this up *now*"), or
does it do a measured response ("You blokes - no blockade and no strategic
bombing. You other blokes, no U-boat attacks on commercial shipping. and no
strategic bombing") ?

>
>>This one is real sticky. Let us assume you pay a social call on LSP's HQ,
>>and they say 'OK', but then start using front orginisations to funnel money
>>thru to the rebels. The rebels then use this hard-to-trace cash to buy guns
>>off Free Traders.
>
>
>How are those free traders getting through? A world *is* a big place, but
>not when you have naval vessels in space prepared for such a contingency.
>Only lucky free traders would manage to get through without being turned
>away and / or boarded.

The Free Traders got through the same way much of those arms got to the
LAVN - go to a third "uninvolved" country (Cambodia) and then the rebels
trans-ship.


>However, simply waving a damper over the area doesn't have the psychological
>effect of dropping Imperial marines to the surface spewing plasma and death.

On the other hand, it's a much more effective use of limited Imperial
resources.

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: IM stuff
>
>At 08:44 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>What will probably happen is the Marines will land to deal with the
>immediate problem (the displacement of civilians.) They will put a stop to
>this by whatever means deemed necessary by the Task Force Commander.  Once
>the situation stabilizes, then investigations can begin into who is to
>blame for the problem.  If necesary the Marines, now replaced by Army
>troops for a long term partition, can whomp all over Washington and take
>Tricky Dick and Kissinger out.
>

My point is that the best method of stopping the problem has a number of
solutions, some invovling excessive force, others not.

Incidentally, knocking over LBJ/Nixon would be best done by indicating that
a series of resignations leading to a government acceptable to the
Imperium. That way, you arent trying to sit on bayonets. Get a diplomat to
indicate that Humphrey resigning for RFK, and then Johnson resigning for
RFK is acceptable and will end the intervention is a better solution that
getting the Marines to occupy the capitol. If you run an Empire, never do
anything you can get the locals to do for you.

>>I'm not sure how the Imperium would react to such a situation... or if it
>>would, in fact, actually be a violation of the Imperial rules of war.
>>
>>>This one is real sticky. Let us assume you pay a social call on LSP's HQ,
>>>and they say 'OK', but then start using front orginisations to funnel money
>>>thru to the rebels. The rebels then use this hard-to-trace cash to buy guns
>>>off Free Traders.
>
>This one's also a great adventure possibility, and I may steal it.  After
>twenty-odd years of "sneaking past the blockade adventures, you *are* the
>blockade!

One good thing on this debate is that we are arguing the actual why, where
and how of Imperial intervention.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #808
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 2 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 809



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Battledress, Hoorah!
Re: Edict regarding Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines...
re: Battle Riders
Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Hearts and minds
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Hexagons
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Nukes and Dampers
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Battle Riders
Parthenogenesis
Re: Battle Riders
SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists?
Re: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists? 
Re: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists? 
Imperial Marines and Intervention
re Violence Immersion
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 14:53:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

At 05:23 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug, I suggest that you have some sidebars about _other_ Marine services.
>How are Zhodani Marines equipped? Solomani?  Aslan?  What about the Sylean
>Marines during the Consolidation Wars? (This last could be done with a
>historical walk-through.)

I'm definantly planning on sidebars about some of the non-SM foes.  The
Zhodani will get a bit more attention.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 14:56:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress, Hoorah!

At 01:27 PM 7/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>It's important to remember that in the Traveller universe battledress has
>>been known and used for over two thousand years.
>
>Is this right? I thought Augmented BD was TL 13, therefore not generally
>available until milieu 200 or so. Please don't tell me you think the Rule
>of Man had TL 13+...

I've seen both TL12 and TL13 for the introduction of BD.. If not, then the
Imperium has had battledress for only a single milennium.

>This is important because my campaign is in milieu 0, and IMTU ABD is
>extremely rare, cutting edge tech, and marines generally use armored combat
>environment suits.

Whuich is the way it should be in M:0.

>As an aside, would everyone writing for GURPS Traveller please consider
>including rules for earlier Traveller milieu? Not everyone's campaign takes
>place after the 5FW.

That's the only playground SJG gets to play with.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 14:58:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Edict regarding Imperial Marines

At 08:19 PM 7/2/99 GMT, you wrote:

>Doug - please be sure to add these items at once!

ROTFLMBDCAO!!!

Thanks, I *needed* that..
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 15:04:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 01:54 PM 7/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>[I have't followed the whole debate, but it does seem there is a
>misconception about templates....]
>
>One thing that should be remembered is that temlates are completely
>optional.  Putting a required skill in a template simply means
>that the author of the template thought that players who
>want to have a marine should buy that skill for his/her PC.

These are Primary Skills. GT pg 86 "In the templates in this section,
primary skills are the skills that are absolutely required,"

>It should also be remembered that CT character creation was designed
>to make PC for adventures (as are the templates), not delineate the skill
>set of every member of a service branch.  They aren't going to take
>characters who spend all their time peeling potatoes into acount much
>(since they aren't interesting PCs).

_Star Mercs_ contains eleven templates for former military folks.  I'm
writing templates for serving troops.  There will be suggestions for making
retired characters (mainly removing the -20pt Extremely Hazardous Duty
disad).
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 15:10:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 05:23 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:

>OTOH, I think Doug's intention was that all Imperial Marines can use BD,
>just as all US Marines can use a rifle. But I could be wrong here.

Exactly.  Every marine a Trooper.  Even the guy who's going to spend the
next forty years as a grav vehicle maitenence specialist in an armored cav
regiment.  He might *never* wear an active suit again, but he'll have to
take an annual VR test to show that he can still operate the systems at a
basic level.

If you build a retired Marine, you could get away with paying only 1/2pt
for Battlesuit, and say that he's forgotten almost everything about
Battlesuit from his active days.  Might be fun paired with Delusion: I'm
still a great suit jockey.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:09:36 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battle Riders

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
High Guard has the line:

"Big craft require tonnage equal to 110% of their mass in the ship"

This tends to suggest that, if you want your 1Mdt tender to carry
500kdt of riders, then you only have 450kdt available for other systems.
>>>>>>>>>
Most Tenders are built with config-7 (dispersed structure) hulls, which
are specifically exempted from the 110%(Big Craft) and 130%(Small
Craft) extra space requirements. Config-7 ships can also launch
all craft at once, an added benefit. Of course, they can't have armor
or be streamlined for refueling.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 16:23:17 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 05:23 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Doug, I suggest that you have some sidebars about _other_ Marine services.
> >How are Zhodani Marines equipped? Solomani?  Aslan?  What about the Sylean
> >Marines during the Consolidation Wars? (This last could be done with a
> >historical walk-through.)
> 
> I'm definantly planning on sidebars about some of the non-SM foes.  The
> Zhodani will get a bit more attention.

One could also ask if other military forces even _have_ Marines in the first
place. I'm Canadian, and our military has no marines. It took me a long time
before I even understood why Imperial Marines are around. 

IMTU, I say that Marines are shipboard troops. They occasionally do rapid-strike
ground action because they can be on the scene faster than Imperial Army units.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 15:22:55 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Hearts and minds

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> "Give me your hearts and minds or I'll burn your Godd**n hut down."

"We got their hearts in this bag right here.  We put their brains in
this other bag; maybe you can find the minds."

- -Sgt. Maj. Ve Naghfuaz, Kforuzeng Special Forces, Dentus/Spinward
Marches, ca. 1108, reporting to a Zhodani advisor.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:39:14 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

In a message dated 7/2/99 1:17:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ian@vax2.concordia.ca writes:

<< 
 "Frankly, humanity *doesn't* have any experience with a
 symbiote/competitor that isn't intelligent but *can* not only use 
 but *make* tools. They wouldn't have to be as bright as a chimp to 
 be a *major* hazard." >>
Also keep in mind that the Moties have been "civilized" for several hundred K 
yrs, IIRC....\
Bob S

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 18:35:23 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

>
> >You *can* stack spheres, but for maps or co-ordinate systems, gaps are
> >a no-no.
> >

Why would a gap be a no no?  The coordinates get you to the center of the sphere
and then you switch to a relative coordinate system which could extend into "gap
space".  You could also have spherical overlap where a specific point is within
two or more spheres.  Assuming that the point is an object, the applicable
sphere would be the one the object is orbiting,  presumably the sphere with the
largest gravity source.

Since stellar bodies are NOT actually in the center of the spheres/hexes, the
sphere/hex coordinate system would only be useful as classification/labeling
aid.  Actual coordinates that you plug into your jump computer would be relative
to your current location and not some arbitrary label.  And there's nothing
wrong with having something labeled twice if it happens to be between or within
multiple spheres.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 16:33:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
.
>"Not individual wars, but if the Motie characters are off-
>handedly referring to imprecise history/myth then it certainly 
.
>	The hormonal Motie birth-control seems to have been a
>	relatively advanced science/tech achievement, since the 
>	whole problem was so difficult to fix. Thus, I got the 
>	impression that the birth-controlled populations were
>	loosing out much later than the transition from hunter-
>	gatherer to agrarian (Come to think of it, did Moties
.

  Oops, I appear to have distracted myself around the first line.
How about: "Not individual wars, but an attritional series (which, given
Motie generation times, wouldn't be a lot of years - depends on how much
hardware they have to use, and their relative productive efficiencies).
IIRC, they seem to be quite comfy with the idea of breeding right up to
the ragged edge of their carryign capacity with Warriors and then count
not only on winning but of losing a bunch of the surplus in the war...

  FWIW, we don't know enough about how Moties conduct small wars to
guess; over-population is no real help in large/long wars.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:55:13 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Nukes and Dampers

>Slowing down the rate is useful for storing things like short-lived
>isotopes (including those Californium mini-nukes), but not for anything
>else.

Except preventing nuclear weapons from being able to achieve a critical
neutron cross-section and exploding!

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:42:22 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

In a message dated 7/2/99 9:47:44 AM !!!First Boot!!!, 
postmark.design@btinternet.com writes:

<< Unless you want something capable of Jump-6 whilst deploying 200kdt
 buffered planetoids, the fact that the optimal rider seems to be in
 the 10-30kdt range (getting smaller as TL rises) suggests that ships
 bigger that 1Mdt are pretty rare. >>

I concur...In HG/TCS the smallest size rider I could make with maxed out 
armor, spinal mount, powerplant, screens and agility was 25kt. MT, FF+S, and 
GT are a LOT different, since you have to calculate mass and volume (Agility 
goes WAY down if you armor a ship...). I built a 1mt tender that could carry 
MANY, MANY of these beasties (16 on the Jump4 version, and 5 on the jump6 
version...).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:48:17 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

In a message dated 7/2/99 9:47:44 AM !!!First Boot!!!, 
postmark.design@btinternet.com writes:

<< High Guard has the line:
 
 "Big craft require tonnage equal to 110% of their mass in the ship"
 
 This tends to suggest that, if you want your 1Mdt tender to carry
 500kdt of riders, then you only have 450kdt available for other systems.
  >>

TCS changed it back to 100% of mass for large non-starships. I can't quote it 
right now; it's in my drawer, but I can dig it out for you if you need it...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:49:35 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

In a message dated 7/2/99 4:18:00 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Skaran@bigpond.com 
writes:

<< Anyone worked out what penetration partical accelerator would be needed to
 punch a hole through to say a size 8 worlds core? If so how big a vessel
 would be needed to carry one?
  >>

ask George Lucas....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:54:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Parthenogenesis

>> I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all reptiles, but
>> I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis _isn't_ more widespread in
>> reptile populations that we currently think...they're not exactly the
>> most well-studied critters on the planet...
>
>Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce *female*
>offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother doesn't have
>any Y chromosomes).
>
>- --
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
Well, Leonard, it has been shown to happen that a virgin female rattler
gave birth to a male offspring. The female had been isolated in the lab
since hatching.... without exposure to other rattlers, or males of any
species.

The young male was found when an aborted clutch was being cleaned out of
her cage... he struck at (but missed) the handler.

Reptile genders are known not to be XY/XX state dependant. Several species
are thermally triggered between male and female.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 18:16:22 PDT
From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> Wrote::

>
"Ships may range in size from 100 tons to 1,000,000 tons." Book 5 (1st ed),
p. 18.

"The fighting starships built and used by the navies of the galaxy range in
size from 100 tons to 1,000,000 tons, representing the most potent weapons
available to any government, corporation, or individual." Book 5 (1st ed),
p. 21.
<

First Ed HG are broken and very few people have it.


>
"The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100 
to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available
anywhere." Book 5 (2d ed), p. 15.
<

HG2 3rd print: no such refrence.
HG2 13th print: no such refrence.
HG2 15th print: no such refrence.

I might be wrong but are you sure you have the right book?
or that you are quoting the book you think you are.

Pg15 of HG2 is discussing character generation, the naval academy etc..

I looked all through my copy of HG2 3rd print,scaned the 15th print
and found absoultly no refrence to what you are talking about.
I found no rule anywhere in the book that says there is an upper
limit to the size of ships. there is a USP hull size Z which is
marked as reserved.
  To me this means that Y is from 1000000 up to whatever you wish Z to be 
- -1. IMTU Z=2000000.


Will


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 02:21:43 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists?

Responses directly to me, please, unless there are others here
interested in the answers to this question:

What mailing lists are there for Traveller? I'm updating
Freelance Traveller, and realized that I don't know what's out
there.  I have the following lists:

This list, _the_ Traveller Mailing List
(traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)
subscriptions traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com
Traffic ~200K per day

My own Traveller Cultural Development List
(Traveller-Culture@onelist.com)
subscriptions Traveller-Culture-subscribe@onelist.com
Traffic about 30 messages per week

The Traveller Technology Development List
(trav-tech@qrc.com)
subscriptions trav-tech-request@qrc.com
Traffic very low and sporadic

The Reformation Coalition Exploratory Service List
(TNE-RCES@tower.ml.org)
subscriptions listproc@tower.ml.org
Traffic unknown

Can anyone provide the above information for other lists, and/or
corrections to the above?

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 22:23:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists? 

> Responses directly to me, please, unless there are others here
> interested in the answers to this question:
> 
> What mailing lists are there for Traveller? I'm updating
> Freelance Traveller, and realized that I don't know what's out
> there.  I have the following lists:
> 
> This list, _the_ Traveller Mailing List
> (traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)
> subscriptions traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com
> Traffic ~200K per day
> 
> My own Traveller Cultural Development List
> (Traveller-Culture@onelist.com)
> subscriptions Traveller-Culture-subscribe@onelist.com
> Traffic about 30 messages per week
> 
> The Traveller Technology Development List
> (trav-tech@qrc.com)
> subscriptions trav-tech-request@qrc.com
> Traffic very low and sporadic
> 
> The Reformation Coalition Exploratory Service List
> (TNE-RCES@tower.ml.org)
> subscriptions listproc@tower.ml.org
> Traffic unknown
> 
> Can anyone provide the above information for other lists, and/or
> corrections to the above?

Traveller Deckplans List
(deckplans@egroups.com)
Subscriptions: http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/boats.html, fill 
out the form & click it.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 22:32:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists? 

> Responses directly to me, please, unless there are others here
> interested in the answers to this question:
> 
> What mailing lists are there for Traveller? I'm updating
> Freelance Traveller, and realized that I don't know what's out
> there.  I have the following lists:
> 
> This list, _the_ Traveller Mailing List
> (traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)
> subscriptions traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com
> Traffic ~200K per day
> 
> My own Traveller Cultural Development List
> (Traveller-Culture@onelist.com)
> subscriptions Traveller-Culture-subscribe@onelist.com
> Traffic about 30 messages per week
> 
> The Traveller Technology Development List
> (trav-tech@qrc.com)
> subscriptions trav-tech-request@qrc.com
> Traffic very low and sporadic
> 
> The Reformation Coalition Exploratory Service List
> (TNE-RCES@tower.ml.org)
> subscriptions listproc@tower.ml.org
> Traffic unknown
> 
> Can anyone provide the above information for other lists, and/or
> corrections to the above?

And I forgot a couple, also...

Fourth Imperium Workgroup
(4iwg@egroups.com)
Subscription: 4iwg-subscribe@egroups.com
Traffic: Unknown; I forgot to change my subscription when I changed providers
Was kinda dead though...  Last message dated 10 Dec '98

And isn't there a listing for the Rivals of the Imperium webring?

Keven



- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:31:33 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Imperial Marines and Intervention

I doubt that the IM's will ever be dropped into a situation in a vacuum---ah
I don't mean it like that. I'm not talking about a deep space ticket. I
mean:
So the XYZ Megacorp has hired the Lilly Livered Battalion to take care of
the anti-corp rebels on Middiam's World.  Lilly Livered is losing so they
figure their best bet is to knock out the rebel HQ. They know its location
within a twenty mile radius. So the sadistic bastard of a leader of Lilly
Livered Marshal Scatch decides to hell with the Rules of War and he nukes
'em.  The Marquis of Middiam has been neutral through all this. The rebels
haven't been attacking the main Starport, only XYZ's private port. They've
also limited their attacks to XYZ offices, ships, buildings and Lilly
Livered Battalion's staging areas.

But now he has a problem. The planetary government belongs to XYZ. Their
contract mercenaries have violated the Imperial Rule of War.  Lilly Livered
is a big bad GTL11 Battalion, with grav tanks and BD infantry.

He contacts the sector duke via XBoat and it's decided the Imperium will
interfere. An Imperial Marine Regiment is sent. LL hears they're coming and
Scratch is ready for them. XYZ on the other hand is scared to death because
The Imperial Ministry of Commerce is at their home office going over their
books. The Imperial Navy is now blockading their ships and doing searches
and seizures. And their stockholder, most of who are Imperial Nobles asking
what the f*** the Board or Directors thinks it's doing.

The Marines drop from orbit on Marshal Scratch and his boys and give them a
whipping.  INI and IISS contact scouts find surviving rebel groups and begin
to ask questions about why they're so pissed at XYZ that they've taken up
arms. About this time Imperial diplomats (Probably Nobles and career
government types) descend onto Middiam to find out why XYZ can't keep its
worker-citizens peaceful.  IN or IA cleanup units arrive to relieve the
Marines and conduct decon operations.

You get the point. The Marines are only one part of a complex Imperial
Machine.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:42:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: re Violence Immersion

>>Unless they are wired differently than humans, it won't work. Humans are
>>apparently hard wired to become accustomed to anything which is common in
>>their environment. Humans are hard wired to adapt. Biophysical studies have
>>shown that persons exposed to lots of violent imagery grow less and less
>>affected from a biological standpoint by that same type of imagery with
>>repeated exposures.
>
>Same type or same image specifically? Also, "technically" should there be a
>difference between say, biophysical effects and psychological cultivation?

Same Types of images. One of the studies (I've read several, but it has
been years) specifically used a collection of some 200 bits, using around
10 per session, selected randomly.

Conditioning has some key factors not covered by generalization, as well.
Such as: Viewing imagery does not prepare one for the SMELL of the inside
of the human body. But, at least for the vast majority of those who pass
surgical rotations, they become to some degree "acclimatized" to that
smell. Plus, the uncontrolled outside environment might not make the same
trigger responses. That being said, however, the general trend is that the
more exposure one has to a given stimulus (even pain) the more used to it
one becomes; enough exposure, and one begins to expect, and possibly even
crave, said stimulation.

The "Clockwork Orange" scenario is probably not going to have the
spectacular effects envisioned by Kubric. But after the 10th watching, I no
longer had any wincing when the protagonist takes one to the family jewels.
Now, I even anticipate the seen and look forward to it....

All conditioning works by one of two methods: reward appropriate responses,
and punish inappropriate ones. Most combine some of both (I know US Army BT
in 1987 did).  Excessive viewing without some form of reward for the
desired response (disgust), or punsihment for lacking the response, will
only cause acclimatization to some degree... how much has been shown
repeatedly to be heavily individual.

Back to your original idea, how about a way to make it work:
	At birth, they wire all the kids pleasure centers. They make then
watch the videos, and put trases of a nausea inducer into the beverages
served during the exposure time. Then, after they throw up, they trigger
the pleasure center.  This links the pleasure to the combination of
violence and nausea, and ending the exposure by vomiting, then feeling good.

>Again, is it the same "type" or the same "image." For example, I recall that
>there was a psychiatrist who tried the "Clockwork Orange" idea out with
>homosexuals. It was a system of electroshock when they appeared to be
>getting excited by same sex pornographic imagery. I think during the late
>70s or early 80s. He did what you're talking about here, and the success
>rate was quite low, if I recall correctly.

all attempts to "treat" homosexuality have been shown to have low success
rates. Just like the attempts to treat sexual predators have been pretty
dismally ineffective. (Some experimental success in reducing sexual drives
in pedophiles has been reported, but that's from chemical or physical
castration.)

I'll try to find the study titles for conditioning experiments... One, from
the late 60's was by the US army... which found the best way to train
soldiers was "as realistic a drill sequence as possible" so that only the
blood was really new to the equation.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:09:49 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

>>5. Battle Dress Maroons. Worn by Marines assigned to the Imperial Guard.
>>Worn by Marines anywhere engaged in policing and guarding duties where
they
>>need to inspire awe as well as kick ass.  The cutlass worn with this
uniform
>>is definitely not just for show.
>
>Travellers' Digest #9 showed a member of the Marine Guard in some sort of
>parade uniform.  For their "dog and pony" (or would that be dog and poni?)
>BD, I imagine highly polished maroon and silver.

I just want to point out that SJGames TNS brief for 152-1116:

"The monthly changing of the guard at the Imperial Palace took place today,
but palace watchers say the ceremony is a little late. Imperial guard
uniforms all look pretty much alike, especially to those unfamiliar with
them, but a local military enthusiast whose hobby is Imperial uniforms says
the differences are like night and day, and to her trained eyes, the Antares
guard has been on duty for almost three weeks.

"It is fairly easy to pick out the Aslan, " says Minaro hault-Yunami, author
of Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial Guard, 1080-1110, " and the
Marines are in maroon, so they stick out too....."

"Every day when the Emperor enters the Long Hall on his way to the Iridium
throne, he is preceded by an honor party of the guard. On the first day of
the week, the honor party always wears battle dress instead of the normal
full dress uniform."

This pretty much limits full dress for Marines to Maroon. I might suggest
that Imperial Marines have an equivalent to the USMC Full Dress, which is a
dark blue jacket with lighter blue trousers. NCO's and Officers have a red
stripe down the trouser leg symbolizing the blood shed by the Marines who
served before them.

Now if you see a Marine in dress uniform on base he'll almost certainly be
wearing his green dress uniform. (I'm Navy so I can't give you the official
'Class A' -- 'Class B' Uniform designations.) The only time you'll see a
Marine in blue is when (s)he's in a parade, at the White House or on Embassy
guard, or at a funeral. You get the idea.

So how about Maroon (Which could easily symbolize the blood of one-thousand
years of Marines) for Full Dress, and Grey with maroon highlights for the
ordinary dress uniform?


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

Quoted information from TNS is copyright SJGames.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #809
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 810



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fw: Battle Riders
RE:[SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
RE: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists? 
Updated Phase World Page
Re: FTL == time travel
RE: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Batledress, Hoorah!
re: Battle Riders
Dirigible Combat
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Star Trigger threat? 
Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Batledress, Hoorah!
Re: YAADA, YAADA [was: YAAA]
Re: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Imperial Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:42:39 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Battle Riders

His reference should be to page 21 (HG 1st ed, 3rd printing) or 20 (2nd ed,
12th printing)

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine
- -----Original Message-----
From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Battle Riders


>
>Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> Wrote::
>
>>
>"Ships may range in size from 100 tons to 1,000,000 tons." Book 5 (1st ed),
>p. 18.
>
>"The fighting starships built and used by the navies of the galaxy range in
>size from 100 tons to 1,000,000 tons, representing the most potent weapons
>available to any government, corporation, or individual." Book 5 (1st ed),
>p. 21.
><
>
>First Ed HG are broken and very few people have it.
>
>
>>
>"The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100
>to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available
>anywhere." Book 5 (2d ed), p. 15.
><
>
>HG2 3rd print: no such refrence.
>HG2 13th print: no such refrence.
>HG2 15th print: no such refrence.
>
>I might be wrong but are you sure you have the right book?
>or that you are quoting the book you think you are.
>
>Pg15 of HG2 is discussing character generation, the naval academy etc..
>
>I looked all through my copy of HG2 3rd print,scaned the 15th print
>and found absoultly no refrence to what you are talking about.
>I found no rule anywhere in the book that says there is an upper
>limit to the size of ships. there is a USP hull size Z which is
>marked as reserved.
>  To me this means that Y is from 1000000 up to whatever you wish Z to be
>-1. IMTU Z=2000000.
>
>
>Will
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:33:17 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE:[SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

Robert Prior wrote:

>Doug, I suggest that you have some sidebars about _other_ Marine services.
>How are Zhodani Marines equipped? Solomani?  Aslan?  What about the Sylean
>Marines during the Consolidation Wars? (This last could be done with a
>historical walk-through.)

According to GT:Alien Races 1 The Consular Guard is the Zhodani equivalent
of the Imperial Marines. GT:AR1 says that The Guard is less focused than the
IM, with a higher percentage of Armor. It also says that they are armed like
Army Lift Infantry in CES with gauss rifles.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 22:18:21 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

>I agree that tv reporters want soundbites.  Moreover, a reporter who
>asks a question that calls for a long and complex answer but expects a
>soundbite in response is herself asinine.  The question itself, however,
>is not asinine.  

I beg to disagree. "What do you feel?" is a question that can only be
asked by the touchy-feely agents of the Politically Correct thought
police and their bleeding-heart-liberal kin.  :-D

(... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... *duck*)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:53:34 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists? 

Don't forget the WebSector list.  Can someone give out the subscription
info?  I have no idea anymore what it is...

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Keven R.
> Pittsinger
> Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 7:32 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists?
>
>
> > Responses directly to me, please, unless there are others here
> > interested in the answers to this question:
> >
> > What mailing lists are there for Traveller? I'm updating
> > Freelance Traveller, and realized that I don't know what's out
> > there.  I have the following lists:
> >
> > This list, _the_ Traveller Mailing List
> > (traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)
> > subscriptions traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com
> > Traffic ~200K per day
> >
> > My own Traveller Cultural Development List
> > (Traveller-Culture@onelist.com)
> > subscriptions Traveller-Culture-subscribe@onelist.com
> > Traffic about 30 messages per week
> >
> > The Traveller Technology Development List
> > (trav-tech@qrc.com)
> > subscriptions trav-tech-request@qrc.com
> > Traffic very low and sporadic
> >
> > The Reformation Coalition Exploratory Service List
> > (TNE-RCES@tower.ml.org)
> > subscriptions listproc@tower.ml.org
> > Traffic unknown
> >
> > Can anyone provide the above information for other lists, and/or
> > corrections to the above?
>
> And I forgot a couple, also...
>
> Fourth Imperium Workgroup
> (4iwg@egroups.com)
> Subscription: 4iwg-subscribe@egroups.com
> Traffic: Unknown; I forgot to change my subscription when I
> changed providers
> Was kinda dead though...  Last message dated 10 Dec '98
>
> And isn't there a listing for the Rivals of the Imperium webring?
>
> Keven
>
>
>
> --
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:09:12 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Updated Phase World Page

    I have just finished a massive update of my Phase World Page.  If you
want to take a look, please do, its at
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/pw.htm

Legate Legion, Militant Jewish Terrorist & Old Gaming Fart
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:22:26 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

>Again, you are all mistaking the observation of events for the causuality
>linking between those events.

Not true. Points in a space-time graph represent actual events, not when
they are observed. In any case, you still get paradoxes from FTL travel
whether you talk about causality or observation.

>FTL travel does not violate causality, nor
>does it presume the possibility of time travel; what it DOES do is break the
>presumed law identified in Einstein's General Theory which is that
>INFORMATION cannot travel faster than the speed of light between the points
>at which the information is generated or incorporated.

Well, I suppose this depends on your definition of "FTL travel" and
"causality". I can imagine myself on an alien planet an instant from now.
Does this mean my imagination is "faster than light"? Not by my definition.
Does being able to send information back in time break causality? It does
by my definition, and you can do this with Traveller's definition of FTL
travel.

>There are now known
>instances where that presumed law does appear to be broken, such as in some
>quantuum tunnelling effects and in the general class of objects known as
>tachyons (which theoreticaly cannot travel SLOWER than the speed of light).

I would be very interested in any reference you can quote of these "known
instances" of information traveling faster than light.

>However, neither of these cases has been shown to be able to transfer
>information, due to the relative uncertainty in making measurements on the
>basis of the elementary particles involved.

Waitaminnit, you just said there were "known instances" of information
traveling faster than light. AFAIK, tachyons are hypothetical and have
never been experimentally detected. IIRC their velocity is related to phase
velocity and cannot be used to transmit information.

>Light, in fact is not the limiting factor, nor the 'cone' it describes in
>any way related specifically to the process and flow of the 'arrow of time'.

I don't understand that sentence, but the light cone in a space-time graph
is most definitely related to the "arrow of time" since its axis of
symmetry is *by definition* the time axis.

>There are some possibilities that time
>travel may be permitted in certain circumstances, but none of these have
>been demonstrated, even theoretically, and none rely on FTL travel at all.

While I'm no expert, every serious proposal for time travel I have heard of
has run into some fundamental flaw. There are proofs that FTL travel does
imply time travel; one of the more accessable ones is at
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/html/FTL_part4.html. If you can
refute this please inform me, but I'll need better than just your say so.

>Instead, all rely on the use of negative energy.

Well, the ones I've seen rely on undiscovered particles or spinning objects
of stupendous densities. Since the potential energy of anything moving
faster than c will be imaginary, I don't know if they "rely" on it so much
as "imply" it.

>I'm sorry, but in this instance, the canon is - and IMHO is likely to
>remain, except perhaps in very special conditions - quite correct. I can see
>no case as yet discussed here that either implies or describes a time travel
>situation.

The example where a ship with relativistic speed jumps between two planets
can send information back in time. Does this qualify as a "time travel
situation"?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:15:07 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Moties civilised for thousand and thousand of years. This is an assumption
made by the crew of the McArthur. Turns out to be not true. Every few
thousand years the Moties blasted themselved back to the stone age and had
to rebuild again. This is how they solved their population problems. It was
also wht Motie "Museums" tended to be in rural areas where they were less
likely to be hit.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 00:55:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Battle Riders
.
>goes WAY down if you armor a ship...). I built a 1mt tender that could carry 
>MANY, MANY of these beasties (16 on the Jump4 version, and 5 on the jump6 
>version...).

  Obviously not designs for the armouries of the brutal Sethkimmelian 
regime of Esperanza, eh?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:07:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Battle Riders
.
> "Big craft require tonnage equal to 110% of their mass in the ship"
> 
> This tends to suggest that, if you want your 1Mdt tender to carry
> 500kdt of riders, then you only have 450kdt available for other systems.
>  >>
>
>TCS changed it back to 100% of mass for large non-starships. I can't quote it 
>right now; it's in my drawer, but I can dig it out for you if you need it...

  p. 16. The obvious question arises, though - given that dispersed hulls
carry such "attached to their exterior" then why the heck are they even
required to allocate _interior tonnage_ (at KCr 50,000 per DT!) for them,
as opposed to counting them only for drive performance/L-Hyd consumption.
FWIW, they should treat the tonnage totals the same way as drop tanks*.

  * however weird those might be.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:28:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Battle Riders
.
>"The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100 
>to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available
>anywhere." Book 5 (2d ed), p. 15.
.
>HG2 15th print: no such refrence.

  p.20; however, see below.

>  To me this means that Y is from 1000000 up to whatever you wish Z to be 
>- -1. IMTU Z=2000000.

  Which is also correct. I would suggest that the colour intro prose be
ignored wrt rules; it does nicely point out to would-be tyrants that their 
ship-building plans have passed from the realm of military science into
that of megalomania*.

  *that from someone who spent a third of his TCS budget on a fleet of
  "MONUMENT" Class Strike Cruisers and their support tankers...

  Yours, etc.
        The Serendip Combine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:22:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Batledress, Hoorah!

> From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
 
> A good recent analogue of this would be that, if my sources are correct, the
> Brits put seasoned veteran pilots in Harriers when they were introduced.
> The USMC originally put hot young pilots in the cockpits of theirs and
> their training loss rate was much higher.

I hadn't heard about differing training loss rates between RAF (or RM?)
and USMC.  If I recall correctly, (1) no twin-seat training version of
the Harrier was made because it would have very different handling
characteristics, especially in VTOL mode, than a combat version and (2)
in VTOL mode the Harrier can only go off center one or two degrees
before control is lost.  A lot of pilots died in learning how to do
vertical take-offs because they tried to save a Harrier that had
wobbled.  Did the veteran RAF pilots have steadier hands (and didn't get
off center) or did they hit the eject button more quickly? or did they
spend way more time in simulators?

Ob Traveller:  What are dangerous things to learn how to use?  Jump
capsules and jump tubes?  Fighters in launch tubes?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:39:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Battle Riders

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Battle Riders
.
>Craft) extra space requirements. Config-7 ships can also launch
>all craft at once, an added benefit. Of course, they can't have armor
>or be streamlined for refueling.

  And without armour they can't be used (cost-effectively) in the line
of battle; it's a shame that HG2 doesn't have any sort of scaling limit
on criticals or drive damage from the standard damage charts. IIRC, Mr.
Macintosh' MCS does take that into effect, thus opening up a new design
niche for certain operations (e.g., a intrusion cruiser that relies on
redundancy and sub-craft, while getting fantastic defense vs meson guns).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 01:43:49 -0700
From: "Rob Walls" <rwalls@home.com>
Subject: Dirigible Combat

I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves something to
be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would be
great.

They look so fragile and such easy targets, but many of them had to be tough
enough to do ocean crossings, and in those days they had smoking sections -
even on the hydrogen filled ones. Shiver.

I imagine that a helium airship could probably take quite a few holes before
getting into serious trouble, unless some HE damaged the frame. I wonder if
hydrogen would detonate from a small blast or if the outgassing would
smother the explosion in some cases.

Rob Walls
rwalls@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 02:07:54 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> > The problem is that the *original* use of the Star Trigger is supposed
> > to have trashed things for several hexes out from the Darrian
> > homeworld. 
> 
> *cough*.  Laugh.  And there's still a Darrian homeworld?  Hell, there's still a
> regular star there?  Nothing this side of a supernova is that powerful, and it
> will completely clear out the solar system and eliminate most of the outer
> layers of the star.

The Maghiz was an EMP, not a supernova.  The trashing was just
electrical.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:44:36 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? 

> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> > Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
> > is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
> 
> Sub-nova level flares?  At a parsec, doubt its much more dangerous than a
> heavy solar storm.

Do the Darrians' neighbors believe that they have enough control to
cause a sub-nova instead of a second Maghiz?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:43:06 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)

> From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>

> If you want a good idea about modern Marine Corps boot, read Tom Ricks'
> _Making of the Corps_  It's an interesting book, written by a Wall Street
> Journal reporter who is definitely not a Marine.  Does a good job of
> capturing the evolution of civilian to Marine, but also raises some
> questions about what happens when the Marine Corps values and those of the 
> rest of society become too disparate to reconcile.
> 
> ObTrav: Does the IM and or IN have this problem? 

I remember this rather scary series of articles in the WSJ a few years
ago.  I don't think the IM and IN will have this problem.  At the
commoner level, civilian values in the Imperium are all over the place;
the Imperium is a great hodgepodge of societies and species.  At the
noble level, however, the values of honor, loyalty, and obedience are
themselves military values, and nobles pervade the IM and IN, in both
the officer and enlisted ranks.  I think that the Imperial armed
services, especially the IM and IN, will identify strongly with the
Imperial nobility.

In my Traveller universe, that strong identification was a problem that
fed the Civil Wars.  Nobles might be granted starships or fleets as
fiefs, so the crews would owe loyalty to them.  Nobles had the right and
obligation to raise other military forces as well.  Naval and military
personnel owed personal loyalty to the nobles first, not to the
Emperor.  After the Civil Wars, Arbellatra as Regent and then Empress
reformed the Imperial armed forces in various ways to make the loyalty
to the Emperor and to the idea of the Imperium central.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:40:55 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Batledress, Hoorah!

Date sent:      	Sat, 03 Jul 1999 01:22:53 -0700
From:           	"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>

> > From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>

> > A good recent analogue of this would be that, if my sources are correct, the
> > Brits put seasoned veteran pilots in Harriers when they were introduced.
> > The USMC originally put hot young pilots in the cockpits of theirs and
> > their training loss rate was much higher.
>
> I hadn't heard about differing training loss rates between RAF (or RM?)

RM don't fly harriers. RAF and FAA only.

> and USMC.  If I recall correctly, (1) no twin-seat training version of
> the Harrier was made because it would have very different handling
> characteristics, especially in VTOL mode, than a combat version and

The British Harrier T2, T4 and T6, the US TAV8-A and TAV-8-B, the
Indian Sea Harrier T60 are all two seat trainers.

> (2)
> in VTOL mode the Harrier can only go off center one or two degrees
> before control is lost.  A lot of pilots died in learning how to do
> vertical take-offs because they tried to save a Harrier that had
> wobbled.  Did the veteran RAF pilots have steadier hands (and didn't get
> off center) or did they hit the eject button more quickly? or did they
> spend way more time in simulators?

The RAF tends to invest a lot of time in simulators, plus RAF pilots are
trained more extensively in low altitude ops. I remember one story of a
joint US/UK exercise where the US pilots were barrelling along at what
they regarded as "on the deck", only to be shocked by the sight of two
RAF Buccaneers flying 100m below them.

> Ob Traveller:  What are dangerous things to learn how to use?  Jump
> capsules and jump tubes?  Fighters in launch tubes?

Anything to do with individual atmosphereic reentry is going to be tricky.
IMTU there is a sport, Orbital Paragliding. You jump out in orbit, reenter
using an emergancy reentry kit and try to land on a 2m diameter target.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 08:48:53 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: YAADA, YAADA [was: YAAA]

At 12:04 PM 02/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>> Subject: YAAA
> 
>>         ROFLMAO ....    Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A$$ Off
>>         YAA     ...........     Yet Another Annoying Acronym
>
>I think it should be YAADA:  Yet Another Damned Annoyed Acronym, so that
>we can end sentences with YAADA, YAADA.
>
>--Glenn
>
>
        IIIIIII *Like* It!
       
        That's a chance in SOP I am happy to  make...  =)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:53:54 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

- ----- Original Message -----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> I beg to disagree. "What do you feel?" is a question that can only be
> asked by the touchy-feely agents of the Politically Correct thought
> police and their bleeding-heart-liberal kin.  :-D

All the better to manipulate you with, my dear!

The difference between politicians and the media:  the first wants to
exploit your feelings to manipulate YOU, the second wants to exploit your
feelings to manipulate OTHERS.  Very sick people.  At least the capitalist
are only after my money! :-D

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 06:58:44 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 18:16:22 PDT
>From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Battle Riders
>
>Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> Wrote::
>
>"The starships operated by the navies of the galaxy range in size from 100 
>to 1,000,000 tons and represent the most potent weapons available
>anywhere." Book 5 (2d ed), p. 15.
>
>I might be wrong but are you sure you have the right book?
>or that you are quoting the book you think you are.

I have 1st ed, plus the pull out section of rules fixes from JTAS. The
pagination must be different. <shrug> Comes from being a grognard, I
suppose. I'll be more precise with my references in the future.

Look at the very first introductory paragraph under Starship Construction.

If the "Starships" chapter remains more or less intact from 1st to 2d ed (I
have no idea -- it wasn't in the pull out), you might also look under
"Design and Construction" there. In any case, the intent seems clear enough.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 10:51:05 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 06:11 PM 02/07/1999 +1100, you wrote:
>>It's an assumption that even Mercenary makes and spells out on the very
>>first page:
>>
>>"Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of
>>arms, with Imperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to
>>effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of
>>conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the
>>realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy
>>of the area to Imperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with
>>*speed and overwhelming force*" (Emphasis mine)
>>
>>(Book 4: Mercenary, p.1, Introduction)
>
>Well, first of all I'm not sure that the people that wrote this actually
>did the numbers on how much force the Imperium actually has at it's disposal.
>

        Hi, Ian!
        Ummm.....
        Lets make a couple of statements & presumptions.  First is that a
Supp9 Tigress BB costs 363BCr.
        Next, here is a Book 3 / Book 4 Marine Battalion.
        
Equipment                                            Cost Per Unit
Number          Total Line
FGMP-15	                                                400
1,500 	 600,000 
Battledress	                                200 	           1,500 	 300,000 
G-Carrier	                                              1,000
107 	 107,000 
G-Tank	                                              2,000
214 	 428,000 
Recon Drone	                              2,000          	 36 	 72,000 
Nuclear Dampner	                              95000             	1	 95,000 
C-FCS master & 
1 man-pack terminal per platoon	 396 	          1	                       396 
Battle-computers - 1 per platoon	100	           37	                     3,700 
Meson Acc - 1 per five platoons	30000	          7	               210,000 
		                                                               MCr	 1,816,096 

        So, lets add wages and support staff and round up to 2BCr for a TL15
BD/FGMP battalion.  Oh, hell, *double* it to 4BCr to account for bases,
troop ships, transport charges and training costs.
        That's 90 battalions, or 135,000 combat troops per Tigress of
budget.  They build Tigresses by the SQUADRON.

        I don't see this being an issue.  You've got 11,000 worlds to work
with...  raising 11,000 battalions is only 16.5 million troops...  there are
some planets that would gleefully unload that many citizens to ease
population pressures.

        --Michel


        
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #810
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 811



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Hearts and minds
Re: Traveller mail lists
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Battle Riders
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Traveller mail lists
RE: Dirigible Combat
copyrights
Re: copyrights 
Re: Traveller mail lists
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: copyrights
Re: Dirigible Combat
Ships Designs
test, please ignore
Unsubscribe
Re: Ships Designs
Re: copyrights

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 06:54:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

At 04:23 PM 7/2/99 -0600, you wrote:

>> I'm definantly planning on sidebars about some of the non-SM foes.  The
>> Zhodani will get a bit more attention.
>
>One could also ask if other military forces even _have_ Marines in the first
>place. I'm Canadian, and our military has no marines. It took me a long time
>before I even understood why Imperial Marines are around. 

The Zhodani have the Consular Guard, the all-psionic elite force.  Since
_Fifth Frontier War_ doesn't give them the abilities of jump troops (being
able to land on a planet even with active enemy SDBs in the system), I'd
wager that they weren't trained in this tactic. Since Kirsten is still
asleep three feet from the _FFW_ box, I can't root through the Zho counter
mix to see if they have any jump troops.

The CG's are a terror themselves.  They all can teleport, and can do nasty
things like telekineticly turn your safeties on, pull pins on grenades, use
clairvoyance to scout out you position...

Canada has never had Marines because of its close relationship with Great
Britain.  Marines are a force-projection arm, and Canada hasn't needed to
do that.  Canada is a very good example of a Client State.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"When you're raised by the Jesuits, you
end up obedient or impertinent."
   - Asst DA Jack McCoy, _Law And Order_

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 06:58:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

At 11:09 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote:

>So how about Maroon (Which could easily symbolize the blood of one-thousand
>years of Marines) for Full Dress, and Grey with maroon highlights for the
>ordinary dress uniform?

I like it.  Picture a Command Master Fleet Sergeant in his full dress
maroons, with *all* his medals and awards, trooping the line.. impressive.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 07:01:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Hearts and minds

At 03:22 PM 7/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>
>> "Give me your hearts and minds or I'll burn your Godd**n hut down."
>
>"We got their hearts in this bag right here.  We put their brains in
>this other bag; maybe you can find the minds."
>
>-Sgt. Maj. Ve Naghfuaz, Kforuzeng Special Forces, Dentus/Spinward
>Marches, ca. 1108, reporting to a Zhodani advisor.

Glenn, If I get the contract, I'm going to use this (with credit).
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 10:21:04 -0400
From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

> 
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:53:34 -0700
> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> Subject: RE: SEMI-URGENT: Traveller Mailing Lists?
> 
> Don't forget the WebSector list.  Can someone give out the subscription
> info?  I have no idea anymore what it is...
> 
> Jesse
> 

There's also the Traveller Deckplans list. 
http://www.egroups.com/group/deckplans
And... because sooner or later someone would do it anyway, I've set up a
gurpstraveller list.
http://www.egroups.com/group/gurpstraveller/

John

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:28:40 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

At 05:08 PM 02/07/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>On a related note, anyone want to host a collection of Traveller vehicles?
>Already HTMLized, although you'll want to remove the Geocities banner tags.
>
        This would be great for Downport...  they have a Striker/ Tech section.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:32:34 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

At 05:08 PM 02/07/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>I'd have thought a marine in BD, wielding a cutlass, would do even less
>>damage to the ship.
>>
>>Phil Kitching
>
>Not a cutlass. Claymore or battleaxe, now _those_ are deadly.
>
        [Snip]
>
>(Seriously, the battle-axe, when wielded by an enhanced-strength trooper,
>was a better _close_quarters_ weapon than most ranged weapons... PROVIDED
>that its wielder didn't have to survive several turns of weapons fire to
>close.)
>

        Heck, get mean and put a small rocket charge on it with a trigger
button that will accelerate it during the swing...  Even against battledress
or bulkheads, you'll make a mess of the target with an RA-Axe.

>IIRC, Gary Gregor ordered his Marine escort to play "Will Ye Nae Come Back
>Again?" to the retreating enemy, just to rub salt in their wounds. :-)
>
        That is the veritable definition of cruel and unusual punishment.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 07:39:14 PDT
From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>
I have 1st ed, plus the pull out section of rules fixes from JTAS. The
pagination must be different. <shrug> Comes from being a grognard, I
suppose. I'll be more precise with my references in the future.
<
No real biggy. Just keeping you honest. although i should be a bit more 
tactful, sorry.

>From: Christopher Thrash
Look at the very first introductory paragraph under Starship Construction.
<
   Oops, I think that in the nearly 20 years of playing Trav I think I have 
read that passage once. I usually ignore the fluff paragraph at the start of 
a chapter. Or I am unable to see it, Oh it had a black globe on thats why. 
hmm interesting.  My Bad, Egg on my face (MBEOMF?) ;).


>
If the "Starships" chapter remains more or less intact from 1st to 2d ed (I
have no idea -- it wasn't in the pull out), you might also look under
"Design and Construction" there. In any case, the intent seems clear enough.
<

Hmm I seem to like the Idea someone mentioned about 1Mdt being the dividing 
line between normals and megalomaniacs!


But why did they put code Z in then? Maybe so you could build the Deathstar  
and put a Code 'V' Apaws on it.  The Anit Matter Particle Accelerator Spinal 
Mount from JTAS 20 page 44, which even has rules for destroying a planet. 
But it would take a long time to do it.

Will



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:11:27 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 03 July 1999 11:57
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel


>>Again, you are all mistaking the observation of events for the causuality
>>linking between those events.
>
>Not true. Points in a space-time graph represent actual events, not when
>they are observed. In any case, you still get paradoxes from FTL travel
>whether you talk about causality or observation.


To a certain extent, true. But we need to consider the frame of reference
here. by definition, any FTL travel is in a frame of reference separate from
the 'normal' spacetime frame of reference (since one of the limiting factors
in Eisteinian spacetime is the speed of light).

>>FTL travel does not violate causality, nor
>>does it presume the possibility of time travel; what it DOES do is break
the
>>presumed law identified in Einstein's General Theory which is that
>>INFORMATION cannot travel faster than the speed of light between the
points
>>at which the information is generated or incorporated.
>
>Well, I suppose this depends on your definition of "FTL travel" and
>"causality". I can imagine myself on an alien planet an instant from now.
>Does this mean my imagination is "faster than light"? Not by my definition.
>Does being able to send information back in time break causality? It does
>by my definition, and you can do this with Traveller's definition of FTL
>travel.


No. Imagination is not information. Information relates to the actual state
of the object concerned. Unless you can demonstrate that the alien planet in
question both exists and is in the precise state you imagine then no
information transfer has taken place.

>>There are now known
>>instances where that presumed law does appear to be broken, such as in
some
>>quantuum tunnelling effects and in the general class of objects known as
>>tachyons (which theoreticaly cannot travel SLOWER than the speed of
light).
>
>I would be very interested in any reference you can quote of these "known
>instances" of information traveling faster than light.


Several articles during this year and the end of last year. New Scientist
has perhaps the most accessible ones with the clearest descriptions. In
particular, they demonstrate the transfer of information faster than light
by particles - in this case quantuum particles - travelling slower than
light. Very interesting stuff.

>>However, neither of these cases has been shown to be able to transfer
>>information, due to the relative uncertainty in making measurements on the
>>basis of the elementary particles involved.
>
>Waitaminnit, you just said there were "known instances" of information
>traveling faster than light. AFAIK, tachyons are hypothetical and have
>never been experimentally detected. IIRC their velocity is related to phase
>velocity and cannot be used to transmit information.


If you look, I did refer to tachyons being theoretical.

>>Light, in fact is not the limiting factor, nor the 'cone' it describes in
>>any way related specifically to the process and flow of the 'arrow of
time'.
>
>I don't understand that sentence, but the light cone in a space-time graph
>is most definitely related to the "arrow of time" since its axis of
>symmetry is *by definition* the time axis.


I think you will find Stephen Hawking disagrees with you here - and he does
so very well in 'A Brief History of Time'. Can't remember which chapter, but
take a look. You are looking at classical thermodynamics, which cannot
describe relativistic or quantuum events (that is still THE big question in
physics - the person who makes that link has a Nobel Prize for sure).

>>There are some possibilities that time
>>travel may be permitted in certain circumstances, but none of these have
>>been demonstrated, even theoretically, and none rely on FTL travel at all.
>
>While I'm no expert, every serious proposal for time travel I have heard of
>has run into some fundamental flaw. There are proofs that FTL travel does
>imply time travel; one of the more accessable ones is at
>http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/html/FTL_part4.html. If you can
>refute this please inform me, but I'll need better than just your say so.
>

>>Instead, all rely on the use of negative energy.
>
>Well, the ones I've seen rely on undiscovered particles or spinning objects
>of stupendous densities. Since the potential energy of anything moving
>faster than c will be imaginary, I don't know if they "rely" on it so much
>as "imply" it.


Hmm. I think we may be talking about the same thing here, but using
different terms.

>>I'm sorry, but in this instance, the canon is - and IMHO is likely to
>>remain, except perhaps in very special conditions - quite correct. I can
see
>>no case as yet discussed here that either implies or describes a time
travel
>>situation.
>
>The example where a ship with relativistic speed jumps between two planets
>can send information back in time. Does this qualify as a "time travel
>situation"?
>
>--
>IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls-
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 08:24:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

At 10:21 AM 7/3/99 -0400, you wrote:

>And... because sooner or later someone would do it anyway, I've set up a
>gurpstraveller list.
>http://www.egroups.com/group/gurpstraveller/

Hmm I really have problems with open, web-based lists.  Perhaps one done
through one-list?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:45:49 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Dirigible Combat

Rob Walls <rwalls@home.com> wrote:

>I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
>campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves something to
>be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
>The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
>help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would be
>great.

While I haven't tried it myself for LTA craft you might try GURPS Vehicles.
Since you can design both LTA and spacecraft using the system it might be
what you're looking for.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:04:09 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: copyrights

after the Yahoo stuff....

Does anyone have copyright and trademark notifications that are approved
by MM for Traveller websites?  What I can come up with is woefully
inadiquite.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:09:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: copyrights 

> after the Yahoo stuff....
> 
> Does anyone have copyright and trademark notifications that are approved
> by MM for Traveller websites?  What I can come up with is woefully
> inadiquite.

Here's the basics of what I use:

<CENTER>
<TABLE BORDER=3 >
<TR> <TD align=center>
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.<BR>
Portions of this material are Copyright &copy;1977-1999 Far Future 
Enterprises.<BR>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE></CENTER>

I tack in any additional copyright acknowledgements after the FFE stuff and 
before the </TD>.  AFAIK, this is all that's needed.

Keven


- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:07:17 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

- ----------
> 
> >And... because sooner or later someone would do it anyway, I've set up a
> >gurpstraveller list.
> >http://www.egroups.com/group/gurpstraveller/
> 
> Hmm I really have problems with open, web-based lists.  Perhaps one done
> through one-list?

My question is whether there's really a need for a distinct GURPS Traveller
list.  I don't like the implication that GT players should go somewhere
else and stop bothering "real" Traveller players.  Maybe I'm being
oversensitive, but having a separate list seems to be a step in that
direction.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:30:53 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>OTOH, I think Doug's intention was that all Imperial Marines can use
BD,
>>just as all US Marines can use a rifle. But I could be wrong here.
>
>Exactly.  Every marine a Trooper.  Even the guy who's going to spend
the
>next forty years as a grav vehicle maitenence specialist in an armored
cav
>regiment.  He might *never* wear an active suit again, but he'll have
to
>take an annual VR test to show that he can still operate the systems at
a
>basic level.
>
>If you build a retired Marine, you could get away with paying only
1/2pt
>for Battlesuit, and say that he's forgotten almost everything about
>Battlesuit from his active days.  Might be fun paired with Delusion:
I'm
>still a great suit jockey.

Ok, if the required level from the template is equivilent to BD-0 in
other versions, or can be reduced to the equivilent of BD-0 due to lack
of use or recertification, Then I remove my objections. (I do not yet
understand GURPS).

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 14:11:47 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: copyrights

At 11:04 AM 03/07/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>after the Yahoo stuff....
>
>Does anyone have copyright and trademark notifications that are approved
>by MM for Traveller websites?  What I can come up with is woefully
>inadiquite.
>
>Charles

        Yes,...  check my site (URL below)

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:37:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Dirigible Combat

Dunno about RPG systems and dirigibles, but you could download Dawn
of Aces and fly the Zeppelin :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 01:54:21 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Ships Designs

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Do ship and vehicle designers ever put design flaws into their creations, or
do they assume that they all work perfectly as per their specifications?

For example the original type S scout had a problem with its air system. Or
from real life a US report indicates that our brand new super Collins class
submarines here in Australia produce about the same amount of noise as a
rock group. This is obviously designed to confuse sonar operators after all
submarines are supposed to be quiet, therefore it must be a rock group.

In my universe a class of TL11 armoured scouts had a problem with  the
crystal iron hull material. It seems the batch used in this build had had
inadequate quality control and fractured under load. This slightly annoyed
the government that built them. No one asked the crews what they thought.

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- ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BEC5C0.22E55480--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:08:28 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: test, please ignore

Just testing something. Please ignore this.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:57:02 PDT
From: Timothy Courson <timothy_courson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Unsubscribe

Unsubscribe


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Ships Designs

On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Antony Farrell wrote:

> Do ship and vehicle designers ever put design flaws into their creations, or
> do they assume that they all work perfectly as per their specifications?
> 
Quite frequently. My favorite use of such flaws is with "killer" equipment
which gives some valuable edge, but at a cost. The best example is a
weapon in my campaign known colloquially as a "Blazer", basically a plasma
pistol produced at TL-13 on a very few worlds. It has its good points:
relatively concealable (bulky for a pistol, more like SMG size),
devastating effect (not enough to burn through battledress reliably, but
almost), and relatively cheap (compared to a PGMP-13.) But there were some
down sides: horrendous recoil (comparable to a large-caliber hunting
rifle), short range (Medium range in classic TRAVELLER--past that it just
musses up your hair a bit as the hydrogen drops back from plasma to
gaseous state), and the occasional tendency for the power pack to explode
if fired too rapidly (a random and dramatic event.) Initially, Blazers
became a highly-sought item by the party: for relatively beefy charactes
who can handle the recoil they were quite useful.  Once a few characters
had to start making up new characters because of exploding powerpacks,
however, they became decidedly less popular as a standard weapon--though
one or two got held back as backup weapons for "special occasions."

I'm highly fond of having the characters' ship filled with "personality"
(read: broken stuff they have to fix) to the point where they typically
spend a week or two with a new ship doing complete overhauls and ship
diagnostics to find all the broken stuff.  I don't mind--it gives me a
good excuse to familiarize them with the ship, teach them a bit of the
mechanics behind things (which make for better gaming flavor, since
they're more directly familiar with the ship's guts.)  Characters with
high levels of Engineering are also handy in that they might know about
such "defects"--the existence of a ship class whose doors are extremely
fragile can be a very GOOD thing if you're trying to break into one...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:05:56 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: copyrights

- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 12:06 PM
Subject: copyrights


>after the Yahoo stuff....
>
>Does anyone have copyright and trademark notifications that are approved
>by MM for Traveller websites?  What I can come up with is woefully
>inadiquite.


This is the official one from Marc's own FarFuture FAQ:

1. May I create my own, original works and put them on a web or ftp site or
share them with my friends?
  Yes, however the Copyright/Trademark holder, Far Future Enterprises
requires the following.
  a) You don't charge for it.
  b) You include the following site-wide disclaimer in the text of a story
or article, on a web site, or in the about box and/or splash screen of any
software:

  The Traveller game in all forms is owned by Far Future Enterprises.
Copyright 1977 - 1998 Far Future Enterprises. Traveller is a registered
trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Far Future permits web sites and
fanzines for this game, provided it contains this notice, that Far Future is
notified, and subject to a withdrawal of permission on 90 days notice. The
contents of this site are for personal, non-commercial use only. Any use of
Far Future Enterprises's copyrighted material or trademarks anywhere on this
web site and its files should not be viewed as a challenge to those
copyrights or trademarks. In addition, any program/articles/file on this
site cannot be republished or distributed without the consent of the author
who contributed it.

  c) You notify Far Future Enterprises (it is sufficient to e-mail
FarFuture@AOL.com) saying "I have a Traveller Web site at this URL:
http://www.somehere.org/some.html" or other similar message.

(Note: You can reach this FAQ through the SF RPG website, which is run by
Marc. When you go there, click on the SF RPG link (the top left-most box),
then click on LegalStuff link, and you should see the link for the FAQ in
the bottom window.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #811
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 812



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ships Designs
Re: Batledress, Hoorah!
Re: Hearts and minds
Re: Traveller mail lists
Re: Battle Riders
Re: Traveller mail lists
Windows 95 Shareware - ship/vehicle design programs
Re: Hexagons
Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)
Re: Mercenary Doctors
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:15:51 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Ships Designs

At 01:54 AM 04/07/1999 +0800, you wrote:
>Do ship and vehicle designers ever put design flaws into their creations, or
>do they assume that they all work perfectly as per their specifications?
>
>For example the original type S scout had a problem with its air system. Or
>from real life a US report indicates that our brand new super Collins class
>submarines here in Australia produce about the same amount of noise as a
>rock group. This is obviously designed to confuse sonar operators after all
>submarines are supposed to be quiet, therefore it must be a rock group.
>
>In my universe a class of TL11 armoured scouts had a problem with  the
>crystal iron hull material. It seems the batch used in this build had had
>inadequate quality control and fractured under load. This slightly annoyed
>the government that built them. No one asked the crews what they thought.
>
        In my TNEC game, the Arquebus-class Patrol cuttter has a serious
problem with the cooling pumps and emergency safeties for its nuclear
fission powerplant.  Crews refer to them as "Blunderbus" or "Arc-and-Burst"
due to the number of times a vessel has been lost due to a powerplant hit
that resulted in the reactor going critical.  Thankfully, they are being
phased out of use and replaced with a more modern design that has a far
safer fusion reactor.

        Anyone else intentionally design a lemon?

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:22:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Batledress, Hoorah!

> From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

> Anything to do with individual atmosphereic reentry is going to be tricky.
> IMTU there is a sport, Orbital Paragliding. You jump out in orbit, reenter
> using an emergancy reentry kit and try to land on a 2m diameter target.

It's in my Traveller universe now, too.  Thanks!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:29:39 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hearts and minds

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: Re: Hearts and minds
> 
> At 03:22 PM 7/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> >
> >> "Give me your hearts and minds or I'll burn your Godd**n hut down."
> >
> >"We got their hearts in this bag right here.  We put their brains in
> >this other bag; maybe you can find the minds."
> >
> >-Sgt. Maj. Ve Naghfuaz, Kforuzeng Special Forces, Dentus/Spinward
> >Marches, ca. 1108, reporting to a Zhodani advisor.
> 
> Glenn, If I get the contract, I'm going to use this (with credit).

That's a deal, Doug.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:39:14 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

> From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>

> My question is whether there's really a need for a distinct GURPS Traveller
> list.  I don't like the implication that GT players should go somewhere
> else and stop bothering "real" Traveller players.  Maybe I'm being
> oversensitive, but having a separate list seems to be a step in that
> direction.

Now begins again the Great TML Discussion of How Many Lists Are We? 
When GDW produced TNE, the TML, after much discussion, split into the
TML (for TNE discussions) and X-Boat List (for CT and MT).  I hope we
don't go down that path again.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:57:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

In a message dated 7/3/99 7:53:28 AM !!!First Boot!!!, 
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<<  Obviously not designs for the armouries of the brutal Sethkimmelian 
 regime of Esperanza, eh? >>

Those are TL F's....I wish I could use them.....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:04:12 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

In a message dated 7/3/99 12:13:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< 
 My question is whether there's really a need for a distinct GURPS Traveller
 list.  I don't like the implication that GT players should go somewhere
 else and stop bothering "real" Traveller players.  Maybe I'm being
 oversensitive, but having a separate list seems to be a step in that
 direction. >>

I support this attitude myself. GURPS has done a magnificant job on the 
Traveller project, and even though I prefer CT and T4, the availablility of 
GURPS Traveller has made the game accessible to my play group in two ways. 

First they were fans of GURPS already and this allows them to use their 
favorite rules when they referee  Traveller, secondly the GURPS staff has 
done an excellent job in consolidating the Traveller data so they are now 
more comfortable playing my games because what is true in there new GT books 
is true in my CT game. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:10:09 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Windows 95 Shareware - ship/vehicle design programs

I am looking for shareware that would allow me to design Traveller ships and 
equipment using the windows 95 operating system. Please forward the website 
url for anyone having knowledge of sites I can obtain these programs at. 

I am specifically interested in classic traveller and/or T4 programs. 

Thanks. 
Bob. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:45:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hexagons

In mail you write:

>> >You *can* stack spheres, but for maps or co-ordinate systems, gaps are
>> >a no-no.
>
> Why would a gap be a no no?  The coordinates get you to the center of
> the sphere and then you switch to a relative coordinate system which
> could extend into "gap space".  You could also have spherical overlap
> where a specific point is within two or more spheres.

Remember, the point of a co-ordinate system is to *uniquely* identify
*all* points. Gaps and overlaps screw that up. If you "expand" the
spheres uniformly until they touch and allow them to distort until the
gaps are filled, you've got the octahedral/tetrahedral pattern I
mentioned a few posts back. Or you've got a cubic pattern. Or one of
the other 4 or 5 basic crystal structures. Since you want relatively
uniform axes in a co-ordinate system, that eliminates several crystal
structures that are essentially cubes stretched in various ways. 

> Since stellar bodies are NOT actually in the center of the
> spheres/hexes, the sphere/hex coordinate system would only be useful
> as classification/labeling aid.

I can't see how it'd be of *any* use whatsoever. At least not one that
can't be better served by rectangular, spherical or cylindrical
co-ordinates. 

> Actual coordinates that you plug into your jump computer would be
> relative to your current location and not some arbitrary label.

So why not use those in the first place?

> And there's nothing wrong with having something labeled twice if it
> happens to be between or within multiple spheres.

Sure there is. Which do you look it up under? It can get *really*
embarassing if some vital bit of info (like the fact that the place is
a red zone) is filed under the *other* set of co-ordinates.

That's why co-ordinates *have* to be unique, and mustn't have "voids"
(gaps). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:54:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>>> 
>> In orbit, you could *try* playing games with magnetic fields, but the
>> problem with that is that they deflect charged particles in opposite
>> directions depending on the charge. And also, if they deflect stuff
>> past the "equator" they'll be guiding it directly *into* the poles.
>> Oops! 
>
> As long as it has a strong enough field to deflect protons, the fact
> that it deflects opposite charges in opposite directions isn't a big
> problem.

There are *electrons* in there too. There have to be. And they'll get
deflected *towards* you. Oops.

>> And the magnetic field would interact with the *planet's* field and
>> screw up your orbit *seriously*.
>
> Yes, but in a fairly predictable manner.  Usable as a low-tech
> 'reactionless' thruster, if you want.

You've got two problems. First, it'll try to flip the station until the
field is oriented counter to the planet's field. And once it's
accomplished *that*, it'll start *accelerating*.

You see, if you are using it for shielding in a radiation belt it has
to be on *all* the time. That makes it the same as having a thruster
that is *always* on, and always pointing in the *same* direction. That
makes a stable orbit impossible. And it's rather likely to throw you
into the planet's atmosphere long before it can throw you away from the
planet.

That's because it'll act to increase the ecentricity of the orbit. And
that means that the periapsis gets dangerous long before the apoapsis
gets usefully far. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:01:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mercenary Doctors

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
> <<snip>>
>> 
>> But just stop and think what a *really* upset doctor with facilities
>> capable of things like *routine* curing planetwide plagues can do to
>> the people he's upset with.
>
> Haviland Tuf, anyone?

His facilities are several orders of magnitude beyond anything a med
ship would have. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:03:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

In mail you write:

> At 09:31 AM 7/2/99 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>
>>*cough*.  Laugh.  And there's still a Darrian homeworld?  Hell, there's
> still a
>>regular star there?  Nothing this side of a supernova is that powerful,
> and it
>>will completely clear out the solar system and eliminate most of the outer
>>layers of the star.

> The destructive effect was from an EMP frying all electrical/electronic
> stuff within a couple of parsecs.

Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
is something over 200,000 AU. 

The planet was 1 AU away. That means that at 1 parsec the effects would
be 40 *billion* times weaker. At 2 parsecs they'd be 160 billion times
weaker. At 3 parsecs they'd be 360 billion times weaker.

Let's try 1 parsec. To damage stuff EMP has to generate multiple
thousands of volts per meter of induced current. And that's for
*unsheilded* stuff. We'll go with a mere thousand volts per meter.

That means at 1 AU, the EMP was generating fields that induced 40
*trillion* volts per meter. Said voltages and fields are incompatible
with things like life, metallic objects, and possibly even solids. 

To give you an idea, they used *far* weaker magnetic fields to
*levitate* a rat a few years back. We are talking about the sort of
forces that could grab *people* on the planet's surface and boost them to
escape velocity. Except that being non-uniform, it'd more likely rip
them to shreds.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:13:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> I THINK its the issue with the picture of that ship from Niven's "The
> Mote in God's Eye" travelling accross the cover.  Not too sure.

That was in the 70s. I know, I have it. Remember, the *story* wasn't
written until then!

> before you go lording it over that you have all those, <evil grin>, bear
> in mind I have a mint condition, original publication of "Who Goes
> There?" by John W. Campbell, Jr.  :)

I have a copy of the infamous "predicted" issue of Astounding. :-)

> Also have an original of Ringworld which Niven himself claims is a
> collectors' item due to the incorrect math and such used in it. 
> (apparently some MIT students read him the riot act and in later
> publications he re-dressed his earlier blunders.)

It's easy to check. Check the cities Louis Wu visits as he "follows"
the new year around the world. Then check a time zone map. In the first
edition, Niven had him going the *wrong way*. Oops!

For anyone who cares, New Zealand is the first place of any importance
to see the new year (there're a couple of "earlier" time zones, but
they only have a few unimportant Islands and outposts in them). Next is
Australia, and so on going *west* around the world until you hit
Hawaii. 

This proved important back in 1996 when a plant in New Zealand had a
computer problem, and then, an hour later several in eastern Australia
had the same problem. Some idiot hadn't allowed for the possibility of
a "day 366" in the year, so at midnight, Dec 30 all the places with
these computer systems crashed *hard*. Once Australia made it obvious
that it was a date related problem they were able to notify the rest of
the world and shut things down in time. 

I plan to be watching for odd new reports from New Zealand and
Australia come the end of the year. They'll get hit by the y2k bug first!

181 days left!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:25:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)

In mail you write:

>         In practical terms, the following flags suggest themselves :-
> 1. Habitat :- aquatic, amphibious, land, aerial, triphibian

Actually, we've found that the *biggest* habitat is inside the crust!
The single-celled organisms in deep rock may well outmass the rest of
the biosphere.:-)

Anyway, I'd divide it a bit more widely: 

Aquatic is strictly water.
"Amphibian" is "water/land"
"land" is strictly land surface (or near surface). 
"aerial" is more of an "amphibian" that lives on the ground and spends
a lot of time in the air.
"triphibian" is obviusly "seabirds", as they spend time on thw water,
and in the air, but need land also.

One habitat that seems to be mostly untenanted on Earth is *totally*
aerial. Say an airborne jellyfish analog with a higher level or dust
and micro-organisms (aerial plankton) in the air. That'd lead to more
strictly arial forms, some of whom might attack ground dwellers, but
most would be *way* up in the sky.

>         The upper bound for size for exoskeletons (in one g with carbon
> compounds) appears to belong to an extinct arthropod whose remains were
> recently excavated in Europe. Picture a centipede 2m long and about 0.5m
> in diameter! [The largest living arthropods, spider crabs, have bodies
> 0.5m in diameter and a leg span of up to 1.5m].

Yow! I *don't* want to meet one of those.

> This world caught my eye in BtC :-
> i. Zeta 2 (Vilis 0919) :- This world apparently has oceans of hydrogen
> fluoride and a Hot climate (average temperature 314-319K).
> Since hydrogen fluoride boils at 292K at one atmosphere's pressure,
> surface atmospheric pressure must be several atmospheres. The Viji, if
> native to Zeta 2, have HF as a solvent system.
>         Using fluorine as a metabolic reactant would have explosive
> consequences ; but a methane or phosgene -> carbon dioxide system is a
> viable alternative.

Actually *oxygen* is almost as reactive as fluorine. Thus things like
forest fires. The big drawback with flurine as an oxidant is figuring
out how the plants can get enough energy to produce free fluorine!

>         CO2 could exert the atmospheric pressure required to keep the oceans
> from boiling away ; it is also a good greenhouse gas.

Alas, it's not stable under those conditions. If there's that much HF
around, there *won't* be more than traces of CO2 in the atmosphere. The
carbon will have been grabbed by the fluorine, giving you (probably)
H2O and at least partially fluorinated carbon compounds. You might even
wind up with some oxygen fluoride! *That* makes fluorine seem tame.

And on top of everything else, HF plus water means that rocks erode
*rapidly*. As in no mountains, and possibly no land surface worth
mentioning. 

Earth went thru a nasty period of erosion after it got an oxcygen
atmosphere. A lot of previously stable minerals oxidized like crazy.
This lead to a rather noticeable layer of iron oxides in the geological
record, and a lot of vulcanism as the rapid erosion cause tectonic
stresses to shift.

>         Since the average surface temperature is 41 to 46 degrees C, the
> Viji must 'tick over' at a higher temperature than this. Metabolic rate
> scales with the fourth power of temperature - and being 'not much more
> than microscopic in size' they will metabolise even faster, by Kleiber's
> law.
         A small, hot, compressed lifeform which apparently has a group
> sentience? A truly alien alien, and that's ignoring the 'silicon based'
> bit.

Since the rock would be a *lot* more porous (due to the HF) I can see
life going a lot farther in the deep crust. 

Well, as I noted above, things to consider are what the secondary and
tertiary effects of various decisions are. For example, those HF
oceans. 

It might also be useful to list the biomes found on Earth, and consider
what others are possible. 

On Earth the main factors for *terrestrial* biomes seem to be
temperature and precipitation. Thus this list from some posts a few
months back:

Climate Zone:                   Biomes
Polar/ Arid                     Barrens
Arctic-Alpine/ Arid             Barrens, Arctic-alpine desert, Tundra
Arctic-alpine/ Dry              Tundra, Arctic-alpine desert
Arctic-alpine/ wetsoil          Tundra, Bog
Cold Temperate/ Arid            Barrens, Semidesert scrub, 
                                Temperate shrub, Taiga
Cold Temperate/ Dry             Taiga
Cold Temperate/moderate         Taiga, Elfin woodland
Cold Temperate/Wet Soil         Bog.
Warm Temperate/Arid             Barrens, WarmTemperate desert, semidesert  
                        scrub, Temperate Shrub
Warm Temperate/dry              Temperate shrub, temperate grass,          
                        Temperate woodland
Warm Temperate/Moderate         Temperate Forest (Deciduous or evergreen)
Warm Temperate/Humid            Temperate Rain forest
Warm Temperate/Wet soil         Marsh,  Temperate Swamp forest
SubTropical/ Arid               Barrens, Warm temperate desert,tropical    
                        desert
                                Temperate shrub, Thorn scrub
SubTropical/ Dry                Temperate grassland, Thorn scrub
                                Temperate woodland, Savanna, Thorn forest
SubTropical/ Moderate           Temperate Grassland, Woodland, Forest 
                                Thorn forest, Tropical seasonal forest
SubTropical/ humid              Temperate forest, temperate rain forest
                                Tropical seasonal or rain forest
SubTropical/ Wet                Tropical rain forest
SubTropical/ Wet Soil           Temperate Swamp forest, 
                                Tropical swamp forest, Mangrove swamp
Tropical/ Arid                  Barrens, Tropical desert
Tropical/ dry                   Thorn scrub, Savanna
Tropical/ Moderate              Savannah, thorn forest, tropical seasonal
Tropical/ humid                 Tropical seasonal or rain forest
Tropical/ wet                   Tropical rain forest
Tropical/ very wet              Tropical Rain forest
Tropical/ wetsoil               Tropical swamp forest, mangrove swamp

Aquatic communities
        River           
        Lake
        Estuarine & marine mudflat: Coastal shallows
        Sandy Littoral          Ocean Beaches
        Rocky Littoral          Marine cliffsides
        Marine coastal          Ocean floor, lighted. Kelp beds and coral  
                                reefs
        Marine Benthic          Ocean floor, dark zone
        Marine Pelagic          Open sea. 
                                (further divided into lighted zone, dark   
                        zone, and near-bottom. 

To these we can add two other *known* biomes:

Deep ocean vent chemosynthetic
Deep rock chemosynthetic

And then, as I noted, it may be possible to have a sort "Aerial
pelagic" community. 

I do wonder if there are more possibilities for chemosynthesis based
ecologies on some worlds. Instead of rainfall, they'd be more
interested in availability of the chemicals they process for life. On a
world like Titan, they might actually be a form of rainfall!

Otherwise it's likely to depend on veins on minerals, or some sort of
volcanic activity. 

Hey! That's it! How about an ecology on something like Io that's based
on using all that free sulfur?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:58:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

In mail you write:

>>>>> (begin quoted material)
> You seem to confirm my uninformed opinion of this though - if the week
>
> that a jump takes is measured in _system_ time, there isn't much you
> can do to time travel, but if the week is measured in _ship_ time,
> you can break it a lot easier than I thought!
>
> Rob Brady                                               robb at datatone
> dot com
>>>>> (end quoted material)
> I still think the slickest way past this whole FTL = time travel
> business is to say (as I have IMTU) that Jump takes *approximately* one
> week in Jump Space time, which is not directly related to any particular
> relative frame in our universe.  For my purposes though, time spent in
> Jump Space seems to match _system_ (or low speed with relation to C)
> time best.

But that means that it differs *wildly* from system time in other parts
of the universe. Remember, there are galaxies moving at near lightspeed
relative to us. Or, more to the point, *we* are moving at near
lightspeed relative to them. And the whole point of relativity is that
it's not *possible* to say one of us is right and the other isn't.

So talking about "low speed" the way you are makes our frame of
reference somehow "special". And special in a way that has some odd
implications for physics.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:03:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

In mail you write:

>>The only questions I have are - is the jump
>>week relative to the ship, or to the system?
>
> This is a good question. If the "week in jump" is relative to the ship,
> ships moving at relativistic speeds will take longer than one week to jump
> relative to the outside universe. If it's relative to the outside, the
> occupants will be in jump less than one subjective week.
>
> Actually, this opens up an enormous can of worms because distance is
> dilated as well as time by relativity. A ship moving at relativistic speeds
> sees the universe contracted in front of it; at about 0.9c a star 2 parsecs
> away is only 1 parsec in the ship's frame of reference. This means you
> could jump 2, 4, even a hundred parsecs in a scout ship going fast enough,
> though it would seem to take proportionally more time from the outside's
> frame of reference.

> To remain most compatible with canon I suggest that all jumps be relative
> to the background stars. This means that jumps will take approximately 1
> week and require about 10% of the ship's displacement in fuel for each
> parsec between all destinations that are not in relative motion near the
> speed of light. From a ship moving at relativistic speed's frame of
> reference, however, jumps take more fuel but less time the faster you go. A
> ship moving at 0.9c will require 20% its displacement mass of fuel to go 1
> ship parsec (which is 2 parsecs to the outside universe), but will get
> there in 3.5 days subjective time (but still 1 week to the outside
> universe).

Alas, this *can't* work. Some of those "backround stars" are quasars
moving at 90% or more of lightspeed relative to you. Velocity is *not*
an absolute. 

You have to make measurements in your own frame of reference. And they
*have* to agree with those made by others in *their* frame of reference
(subject to the Lorentz-Fitzgerald conversion factors). 

Measurements of space and time have to be converted into "interval".
*All* observers will agree on the interval betwen two events. Where
they differ will be in how much of the interval is "space" and how much
is time. Which brings us back to the fundamental problem. 

If you disappear at point A and reappear at point B, with an interval
such that you arrive at B before light can cross the distance from A
to B, then in some reference frames, the time portion of the interval
*has* to be negative.

> Some have proposed making "jump space" a separate frame of reference which
> is the same regardless of velocity. I would avoid this. The notion of a
> privileged frame of reference which is the same for all observers violates
> relativity and apparently has significant consequences to the laws of
> physics.

So does your suggestion. 

>>Of course, in the real world it would take 3.24 years to get the
>>information, but if the 1 week jump is 1 week relative to the system,
>>then it takes just as long to transmit the information in a near C
>>ship as it does in a 0 speed ship.
>
> It does from the ship's frame of reference, but not from the outside
> universe's. The problem is that objects with relativistic velocities have
> different time axes; "1 week" is different things to the ship and to the
> outside universe. As I posted before, it is possible to create a trajectory
> in space-time such that a ship can experience outside events in the reverse
> order to the rest of the universe. Hence the "time travel" paradox.

Yep.

I've *got* to dig up the formula for interval. If I calculate the
interval for a jump, I should be able to work backwards to figure the
required frame for any desired amount of time travel. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:18:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Yep. Even a "typical" tarantula has a body that's far bigger than any
> insect can have. And there are spiders with bodies even larger. The
> infamous "bird-eating" spider comes to mind.
>
>         "Far bigger?" A little digging on my part produced a weight of
>         about 4 oz for the largest known bird-eating spiders. The
>         goliath beetle (which can fly) is about 3.5 oz. The goliath
>         beetle is about 5" long, while the largest bird-eating
>         spiders have a leg span of about 13", and an extinct dragon-
>         fly had a wingspan of about 24". A large tarantla is not even 
>         larger than known insects, let alone comparing a "typical"
>         tarantula to possible insects that could be even bigger (If
>         a flying insect can be so big, requiring lightness and high
>         metabolic rate, then a relatively sedentary insect could 
>         probably be considerably bigger).

You are cheating. You are using weight, wingspan, and length. Those are
*not* interchangeable. And, as I said earlier, the limiting factor is
the maximum distance of an internal point from the surface of the body.

Length is *definitely* not related to that. Neither is length of
weight. *Thickness* is. But only in a minimax sense, That is, the
critical factor is the maximum "minimum distance to the surface".

Also, there's some debate as to what the partial presure of O2 was back
when that dragonfly was around, If, as some suggest, it was higher,
then the dragonfly likely couldn't survive under current conditions.

> "BTW, one of the big limits on exoskeletons is a combination of lack 
> of leverage as the limbs get larger, and problems with load bearing 
> at joints. There's just too much "stuff" going through the joints."
>
>         "A mechanical analysis, based on fundamental principals of 
>         mechanics, suggest that an exoskeleton is superior to an 
>         endoskeleton in regard to failure by buckling and bending. 
>         When it comes to forces of impact, however, ...the exoskeleton 
>         is at a disadvantage, particularly for large and active animals 
>         such as vertebrates."
>                 -Schmidt-Nielsen, 1984 (p. 53)

>         Once again, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. 
>         Endoskeletons gain more advantages as body size increases.
>         We have not necessarily seen the upper limit on body size for
>         terrestrial organisms with an exoskeleton and/or tracheal
>         respiration.

Exoskeltons, maybe. For tracheal resipiration, I want some hard
figures. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:26:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
> "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
> *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
> doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."
>
>         I see that another poster has addressed the sex determination
>         issue, so I will just make a point about what sexes are 
>         needed. Assuming that you are talking about parthenogenesis
>         (unfertilized eggs developing into adults), the males are
>         not required.

<sigh>

*Of course* the males aren't needed for parthogensis. That's the
*definition*. What I said had *nothing* to do with that. 

Might I trouble you to try a bit harder to write responses that
actually deal with the issues being discussed, rather than with some
*different* issue? 

I'm getting tired of having you continually "refute" points I never
made.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #812
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 813



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks
Re: Nukes and Dampers
Re: Parthenogenesis
Re: Ship designs
Re: Ship Designs
Re: 1 million dton starships (was Re: Battle Riders)
Re: Parthenogenesis
Upper Sizes of Ships
Linux software
Re: Windows 95 Shareware - ship/vehicle design programs
Re: Parthenogenesis
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Star Trigger threat?
Re: Dirigible Combat
Re: Star Trigger threat?
Re: Hexagons
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Ship Design (HG, 3i) (Long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:30:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Ian Ferguson writes:
>> Leonard Erickson
>> "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
>> *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
>> doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."
>
> Hm...hadn't noticed this initially (sort of skimming this thread),
> but if we're talking about alien races, this assumption is false --

We weren't. I was replying *specifically* to a comment about
rattlesnakes producing *male* offspring parthogenetically. 

> you can set up genetics so that either parent is responsible for sex
> determination, and as I recall there's species on earth which are
> determined by the mother.
 
A fact I wasn't aware of when I stuck my foot in my mouth.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:32:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>  
>> And I want to see the look on the player's face when he finds out what
>> he just "shook" when greeting the alien ambassador. :-)
>
> That would be the case if he shook hands with the Hiver ambassador. 
> Remember that the Hivers are always sending delegations around within
> their own empire specifically to "shake hands" and spread genetic
> material around.  Sex for the Hivers is always totally casual, even
> anonymous (and child-rearing is left to mother nature).  

Yeah, but in my example the situation is a lot "closer to home", as I'm
assuming a species with sexual reproduction. And, one can assume
nowhere *near* as casual as the hivers about it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:37:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor writes:
> <snipped>
> "Gut feeling : there is a lack of appropriate solvents for 
> boron compounds unless they were combined with carbon or 
> silicon to get around the 'boron hydride' problem (they 
> react explosively with water, oxygen and most of the solvents 
> I listed later in the post)."
>
>         What about replacing C with N? I realize that I may be
>         waxing ignorant here, but I am trying to explore the
>         possibilities.

Nitrogen compounds have this slight problem. They tend to be unstanle
(except in a few configurations). Nitrogen-nitrogen bonds are one of
the more unstable configurations. 

There's a *reason* most explosives contain nitrogen!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:42:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nukes and Dampers

In mail you write:

>>Slowing down the rate is useful for storing things like short-lived
>>isotopes (including those Californium mini-nukes), but not for anything
>>else.
>
> Except preventing nuclear weapons from being able to achieve a critical
> neutron cross-section and exploding!

True, but that requires hitting the bomb *during* the few milliseconds
(microseconds?) when fission is actually *occuring*. 

It's much simpler to hit it with an increase. That causes the
sub-critical masses to at least heat up and deform (making the bomb
impossible to detonate). Or maybe they'll get zapped enough to melt
(definitely won't go off then!) or even for the sub-critical masses to
go critical. In that case, it'll go boom, but before it gets near you.
A definite win.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:46:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Parthenogenesis

In mail you write:

>>> I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all reptiles, but
>>> I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis _isn't_ more widespread in
>>> reptile populations that we currently think...they're not exactly the
>>> most well-studied critters on the planet...
>>
>>Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce *female*
>>offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother doesn't have
>>any Y chromosomes).

> Well, Leonard, it has been shown to happen that a virgin female rattler
> gave birth to a male offspring. The female had been isolated in the lab
> since hatching.... without exposure to other rattlers, or males of any
> species.
>
> The young male was found when an aborted clutch was being cleaned out of
> her cage... he struck at (but missed) the handler.
>
> Reptile genders are known not to be XY/XX state dependant. Several species
> are thermally triggered between male and female.

You learn something new every day.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 08:14:12 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ship designs

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: Ships Designs
>
>Do ship and vehicle designers ever put design flaws into their creations, or
>do they assume that they all work perfectly as per their specifications?
>
>For example the original type S scout had a problem with its air system. Or
>from real life a US report indicates that our brand new super Collins class
>submarines here in Australia produce about the same amount of noise as a
>rock group. This is obviously designed to confuse sonar operators after all
>submarines are supposed to be quiet, therefore it must be a rock group.

This is IMO a furphy. The Collins class does have problems (eg too big, too
expensive and the fire control system doesnt work), but it is plenty quiet
when going at 3-5 knots.

It's only loud when hooning around at 15 knots, and if you try that in a
diesel-electric you die anyway when the batteries run out and you have to
schnorkel. The USN has a very, very big blind spot when it comes to
non-nuclear submarines (possibly why other navies, such as that reknowned
first-rate naval power Argentina, manage to regularily deep-six US CVNs
with diesel subs in exercises).

To haul this back OnTrav, give the PCs the job of blindtesting some new
piece of equipment. I'm not talking Paranoia R+D here, rather something
that is a critical part of some very big procurement contract.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:26:01 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship Designs

At 01:54 AM 04/07/1999 +0800, you wrote:

>Do ship and vehicle designers ever put design flaws into their creations, or
>do they assume that they all work perfectly as per their specifications?
>

 Of course, not all disadvantages are mechanical. IMTU the freighter design
that (in the distant past) became the basis for the classic Corsair is still a
fairly common design, but has a tendency to attract more than its fair share
of Customs inspections.

 Back in the MT era, a "variant" Scout was posted on the TML that had an
Armor rating of 39 (Starship minimum was 40) due to inferior materials
that only became obvious after a whole bunch had been built and spread
all over the region.
 The classic Type S problem of inadequate filters is, IMTU, a simple 
combination
of the hull size, typical usage, and the fact that those Scouts were 
supposedly
built at TL9. Long term life support is still tricky at that TL...

 Aside from the above example, how would such mechanical problems
be represented? Some are going to be simple "not up to spec" problems,
which get designed the normal way. Others could be purpose-built
by the architect. Another poster on this subject mentioned "hot" hardware
that makes sacrifices in the long term for short-term gain. This could be
represented (in MT, TNE, and T4) during design by using a component
from one TL ahead, or that has some characteristic of the next TL, in
exchange for problems. TNEs Wear Value mechanic works for some
cases, as some hardware will be generally touchy from word one, while
other cases are going to be specific.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:30:42 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships (was Re: Battle Riders)

>Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 07:39:14 PDT
>From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Battle Riders
>
>No real biggy. Just keeping you honest. although i should be a bit more 
>tactful, sorry.

Actually, that's the first time anyone's pointed out that the pages are
different. I had thought that 2d ed was arranged differently, but that the
page numbers were the same from the pull out to the 2d ed. Oh, well --
learn something new.

>Hmm I seem to like the Idea someone mentioned about 1Mdt being the dividing 
>line between normals and megalomaniacs!
>
>But why did they put code Z in then? 

Unless I get overruled, GT: Starships is going to say that 1 million dtons
is the largest starship that has been built to date, but that there is
theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired. Larger
vessels do exist in the OTU (the sublight colony ships that reached the
Islands Clusters, or those used by the Suerrat), but they seem to all be
non-starships.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Parthenogenesis

>Well, Leonard, it has been shown to happen that a virgin female rattler
>gave birth to a male offspring. The female had been isolated in the lab
>since hatching.... without exposure to other rattlers, or males of any
>species.
>
>The young male was found when an aborted clutch was being cleaned out of
>her cage.. he struck at (but missed) the handler.
>
>Reptile genders are known not to be XY/XX state dependant. Several species
>are thermally triggered between male and female.
>
>William F. Hostman


Other species depend on chemical concentrations: one sex releases a
chemical that causes all hatchlings to develop as members of the other sex
(unless the level is low, in which case you get a mixture of sexes). IIRC,
some of these species have an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism, too
(female 200kg, male 20g, that kind of thing).

I'm trying to dig out the references now...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Upper Sizes of Ships

>I looked all through my copy of HG2 3rd print,scaned the 15th print
>and found absoultly no refrence to what you are talking about.
>I found no rule anywhere in the book that says there is an upper
>limit to the size of ships. there is a USP hull size Z which is
>marked as reserved.
>  To me this means that Y is from 1000000 up to whatever you wish Z to be
>- -1. IMTU Z=2000000.
>
>
>Will

MT Ref's Manual - the tables only go up to 1 million (1e6) tons displacement.

Under FF&S, ships in the 5e5 - 1e6 range don't have enough surface area for
full useage of their volume except as cargo. (Or so it has been shown about
3-4 years ago on the list.)

Also, no canon design has ever exceeded 1e6 tons.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 18:15:52 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Linux software

Version 0.9.1 of Mark's Traveller Utillities are now
available via

http://www.visi.com/~markn/index.html

.1 has numerous bugs fixed and now allows 'printing'
to graphic (xpm, gif, jpeg, or gif) files.  It's 
still a pain to install and the documentation is 
sketchy at best, but it is functional.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:11:35 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Windows 95 Shareware - ship/vehicle design programs

From:           	SciFiFan56@aol.com
Date sent:      	Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:10:09 EDT

> I am looking for shareware that would allow me to design Traveller ships and 
> equipment using the windows 95 operating system. Please forward the website 
> url for anyone having knowledge of sites I can obtain these programs at. 

I know of two excel spreadsheets for T4 equipment. There's Andy Akins
FFS sheet for ship designs and my own T4 gunsmith sheet for small arms.
You can find Andy's sheet at <http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/>.
You can find my small arms sheet at BITS <http://wwwbits.org.uk>
I'm currently working on a T4 vehicle design sheet (expected to be ready in
about a month). There's also Rob Prior's excellant Infini-V vehicle design
program, but thats for mac. However, you can get Exacutor from
http://www.ardi.com, and that will allow you to run it under windows 95.
You can find Infini-V at the BITS site.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:16:14 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Parthenogenesis

>>Reptile genders are known not to be XY/XX state dependent. Several species
>>are thermally triggered between male and female.
>
> Other species depend on chemical concentrations: one sex releases a
> chemical that causes all hatchlings to develop as members of the other sex
> (unless the level is low, in which case you get a mixture of sexes). IIRC,
> some of these species have an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism, too
> (female 200kg, male 20g, that kind of thing).
>
> I'm trying to dig out the references now...
>
Isn't it true that in insect colonies, the queen bee or queen ant must apply
a special enzyme to all the larvae in order to make them into neuter (though
all-female) 'workers/soldiers'?  And that if this enzyme is not present, the
larva will automatically become a new queen?  (Insuring the survival of the
colony if the queen dies and cannot administer the enzyme.)

Of course, a different chemical would be used on a small percentage of the
larvae to make them male drones, IIRC.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:24:48 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

> Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
> is something over 200,000 AU. 
> 
> The planet was 1 AU away. That means that at 1 parsec the effects would
> be 40 *billion* times weaker. At 2 parsecs they'd be 160 billion times
> weaker. At 3 parsecs they'd be 360 billion times weaker.
> 

Correct me if I am wrong, but ins't a parsec approximately 3.21 light
years in distance?  200,000 AU seems pretty far even for 1 parsec.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:29:37 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

> 
> > I THINK its the issue with the picture of that ship from Niven's "The
> > Mote in God's Eye" travelling accross the cover.  Not too sure.
> 
> That was in the 70s. I know, I have it. Remember, the *story* wasn't
> written until then!
> 

Ahh.  I also have the glow-in-the-dark model of the McArthur, complete
with opening cargo bay and tiny pinnace inside.  BTW, I love its
design.  Far as I know, at time of creation, only 200 of these models
were ever fabricated.  Know where I might pick up a mint copy?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:39:26 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Upper Sizes of Ships

> MT Ref's Manual - the tables only go up to 1 million (1e6) tons displacement.
> 
> Under FF&S, ships in the 5e5 - 1e6 range don't have enough surface area for
> full useage of their volume except as cargo. (Or so it has been shown about
> 3-4 years ago on the list.)
> 
> Also, no canon design has ever exceeded 1e6 tons.
> 

The handwave my old GM used to limit ship sizes was the gravity field
generated by thier mass.  I wanted to design a teraton-sized ship and he
told me if I tried to launch my fighters they'd go "BLAT!" on the side
of the ship as soon as they left the launch tubes due to the gravity
field generated by the ship's mass.

Just how on the mark is this reasoning?  Is it bunk, or as size
increases, do we get problems with passive grav fields due to
mass/density?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:35:08 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

>> The destructive effect was from an EMP frying all electrical/electronic
>> stuff within a couple of parsecs.
>
>Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
>is something over 200,000 AU.

But Leonard, you forget that in Traveller space is 2D, so the EMP only
decreases inversely linearly!

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:27:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dirigible Combat

In mail you write:

> I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
> campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves something to
> be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
> The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
> help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would be
> great.
>
> They look so fragile and such easy targets, but many of them had to be tough
> enough to do ocean crossings, and in those days they had smoking sections -
> even on the hydrogen filled ones. Shiver.

Nope. That's why the US Navy gave up on them. One good storm cell would
rip a dirigible to shreds. As happened to both the Shenendoah and the
Akron if I recall correctly. 

They were too big and fragile to survive a storm, and too slow to avoid
one. 

And those smoking sections were rather ingenious. They too a *lot* of
pains to keep the smokers and the hydrogen apart. :-)

> I imagine that a helium airship could probably take quite a few holes before
> getting into serious trouble, unless some HE damaged the frame.

Holes are a problem. But as you note, not fatal. But any sort of
explosives means that you've got shockwaves hitting both the gas cells
and the outer surfaces. 

Again, *because* they have to be *very* light, the structures of a
dirigible just *can't* take all that much extra stress.

> I wonder if
> hydrogen would detonate from a small blast or if the outgassing would
> smother the explosion in some cases.

The hydrogen *can't* burn *or* explode unless it is mixed with air
(from 4% to 75% mix). And since *all* explosives are selfcontained, you
can't smother them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:35:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

In mail you write:

>> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>
>> Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>> > Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
>> > is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
>> 
>> Sub-nova level flares?  At a parsec, doubt its much more dangerous than a
>> heavy solar storm.
>
> Do the Darrians' neighbors believe that they have enough control to
> cause a sub-nova instead of a second Maghiz?

The point is that the Maghiz *had* to be "sub-nova". The Darrians
*survived*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 21:49:58 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> >You *can* stack spheres, but for maps or co-ordinate systems, gaps are
> >> >a no-no.
> >
> > Why would a gap be a no no?  The coordinates get you to the center of
> > the sphere and then you switch to a relative coordinate system which
> > could extend into "gap space".  You could also have spherical overlap
> > where a specific point is within two or more spheres.
>
> Remember, the point of a co-ordinate system is to *uniquely* identify
> *all* points.

Using that logic, the existing hex pattern couldn't be used.  There's close to
a square parsec of points that all have the same coordinate.  The hex pattern
isn't a locator, its a classifier.  All points in that hex are labelled as
such.

> Gaps and overlaps screw that up. If you "expand" the
> spheres uniformly until they touch and allow them to distort until the
> gaps are filled, you've got the octahedral/tetrahedral pattern I
> mentioned a few posts back. Or you've got a cubic pattern. Or one of
> the other 4 or 5 basic crystal structures. Since you want relatively
> uniform axes in a co-ordinate system, that eliminates several crystal
> structures that are essentially cubes stretched in various ways.

Well the cannon shot stack is a skewed cubic pattern.

>

>
>
> > Since stellar bodies are NOT actually in the center of the
> > spheres/hexes, the sphere/hex coordinate system would only be useful
> > as classification/labeling aid.
>
> I can't see how it'd be of *any* use whatsoever. At least not one that
> can't be better served by rectangular, spherical or cylindrical
> co-ordinates.

Well, yea.  Cartesian would be good.  But we're trying to reconcile the
pre-existing hexagonal mapping pattern and extruding that into a hexagonal 3rd
dimension.

>
>
> > Actual coordinates that you plug into your jump computer would be
> > relative to your current location and not some arbitrary label.
>
> So why not use those in the first place?

I dunno.  Why use Hexagons?  I guess because some bean counter at Capitol
thought computer memory was too expensive and decided to reduce the coordinate
system from 24 bytes down to 4.

>
>
> > And there's nothing wrong with having something labeled twice if it
> > happens to be between or within multiple spheres.
>
> Sure there is. Which do you look it up under?

Either.  It's just an index.  Multiple indices can point to the same object.

> It can get *really*
> embarassing if some vital bit of info (like the fact that the place is
> a red zone) is filed under the *other* set of co-ordinates.

It's not (unless you've got a bonehead bean counter back at Capitol trying to
save half a nibble here and there).  An object with multiple indices will be
the same object no matter which index you use to find it.

>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:33:33 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Date sent:      	Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:24:48 -0400
From:           	Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>

> > Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
> > is something over 200,000 AU. 

> Correct me if I am wrong, but ins't a parsec approximately 3.21 light
> years in distance?  200,000 AU seems pretty far even for 1 parsec.

3.26 ly or 205,755.52 AU or 30,863,332,800,000 Km.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 23:47:49 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Ship Design (HG, 3i) (Long)

        All the banter about the ominous "Andrew Young" in the BD debate
prompted me to do up designs for a 3-battalion transport.  Results, should
you be interested are:

        Battalion Transport & Support Ship
http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/temp/andrew_young.html
        4-platoon Landing Craft
http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/temp/bulldog_lc.html
        Scoop ship
http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/temp/terrier_ss.html

        Diplomat-Class Battlion Transport and Support Ship
                        Q73310F4-009909-50T99	MCr45,077.01	91 ktons
Batteries Bearing	          	   9-Y--199		              TL F
Batteries			   C-Z--1CC			Crew 639
Passengers=. Cargo=3000. Fuel=36400. EP=9100. Agility=2. Troops=4551
Range:  3 parsecs/ one month
Note:  Z=162, Y=121

        The "Diplomat"-class _Andrew Young_ carries three full battalions of
battle-dress TL15 Imperial Marines plus thier G-carriers, Tanks and
associated equipment.  She carries three model 9/Fib computers;  one for the
ship, one for battle-field coordination and a redundant backup.  Her
fire-power is orriented around support of her ground troops and landing,
hence the dozen meson bays and CPAWs spinal.  
        She carries 20 "Bulldog" class landing craft, allowing an entire
battalion to be landed with equipement at once.  The first landing wave,
however, is delivered by drop capsule....  the entire first batallion is
deployed in a single launch in this fashion.  The third wave down must wait
for the Bulldogs to return to the mothership before they can deploy.
        She also carries 5 "Terrier" class scoop ships to refuel her while
on station;  her cargo stores allow three months of operations without
replenishment.  However, she carries only enough fuel for one month of
power-plant operations.  The Terriers, during full scale operations, supply
fuel slightly faster than the Diplomat consumes it.  A typical month of
uncontested operations will allow them to supply 5 weeks of refined fuel in
4 weeks.
        While certainly capable of dissuading light skirmishers from
engaging her more than once, the Diplomat-class ships are not designed to
operate by themselves.  Usually a light cruiser and a DesRon are assigned to
provide a barrier defense to allow the Diplomat to do what it is she does
best...  dominate the battlefield over which she is parked.  It is also not
unusual to see such a strike group with a hospital ship and a heavy
frieghter for logistics support.

        ======

        Personal Comments:   A very good variant of this ship would be to
rip out the spinal PAWs, reduce the powerplant appropriately and add 60
fighters and some more cargo.  The fighters would be for defense suppression
and scoop-ship escort.
        Also, it is argueable about the merit of having a single-salvo
ability for an entire *batallion* of BD/FGMP troops...  I probably could
have saved myself some tonnage by going with a company per salvo deployment
rate and had multiple waves of DC's.  However, the design was heavily
influenced by the reoccuring theme of "overwhelming force" in the BD debate.  
        Hence the very heavy array of meson bays...  since you can fire
through the planet with them, they are perfect for this type of application.
The hordes of low-USP pulse-laser batteries are for pounding the crap out of
the LZ and anything else on the facing hemisphere...  that's a great deal of
fire raining down on 121 targets simultaneously...  'sides, pulse laser fire
looks cool.  =)
        The three computers are mostly because once the troops are on the
ground, communications, sensors and information gathering/ compilation
becomes paramount...  dedicating a 9fib to that in lieu of rules for
specific systems seemed to be the right answer.  

        The Bulldog was another set of compromises...   Once the troops are
down, they have to be useful as something else...  hence the high agility,
armor and missles...  they do nicely as air-strike vehicles.  Also, with the
40-ton cargo area, they can do logistics runs to FEB-area troops with
reasonable risk.  
        The pop-down anti-personnel turrets are just my mean-streak showing
through...  more than enough firepower to "pacify" an LZ.  4 platoons of
BD/FGMP troops with G-carriers & G-Tanks also achieve that effect, too.  ;-)

        ======

        As always, comments, questions and critiques are welcome.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #813
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 814



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines [long]
Hexagons
Re: 1 million dton starships
RE: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In
Re: 1 million dton starships
Re: 1 million dton starships
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: 1 million dton starships
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: copyrights
Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Traveller mail lists
Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:50:51 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

Firstly, for Erwin, other states do have Marines, but not usually (at all ?)
equivalents of the US Marines.

> Canada has never had Marines because of its close relationship with Great
> Britain.  Marines are a force-projection arm, and Canada hasn't needed to
> do that.

I'd argue that the current position of the US Marines is an anomaly that is
unlikely to be duplicated elsewhere.

Whilst marines can be used in a force projection role, the only reason the
US Marines are especially useful in this role  is because of their integral
air and artillery support. And that they have this is merely an accident of
history, and an outgrowth of the strange way the U.S. military is funded and
organized in the first place. It's possible one could attribute it all to a
single strongman, but I'm sure Doug knows more about that than I do.

The vast majority of other countries marines follow the normal marine
concept of marines being shipboard security troops. This includes the
Russian, Chinese, French, Dutch, Beligian, Indonesian,  German, Canadian,
Japanese, and British marines. (Though I'm not sure alll those countries
still have marines,  they have done so in the past )

The closest to the US concept of marines are probably the Royal Marine
Commandos, but they are special forces, not just marines, and again it's
pretty much an accident of history that they are descended from Marines.

Part of my argument stems from the fact that "force projection" is a concept
that requires more than even the US Marines are capable of.  The Duke of
Wellington's Peninsular force and the WW][ British Expeditionary Force were
"force projection", the raids on Grenada or Vera Cruz by US Marines were
not. The deployment of the Sixth Fleet in the Gulf to blockade Iraq, was
"force projection", the deployment of US marines to protect the US
embassy in Lebanon was not.

Now this does not affect Traveler, because the Imperial Marines are
organized as a  US-style marine force, but have for some reason in Traveller
board games been given better capabilities to assault planets from orbit
than the Army. Not particulalry sensible IMO, given historical precedents in
airbourne and seabourne invasions. However, cannon now suggests otherwise,
so we have to live with an Imperial Marine force that is "Marine"  in name
only, and more powerful than historic "marine" forces.

If I was writing Travelleer from scratch, I'd likely have dropped the
archaic "marine"  title and used either "Airbourne" or "Spacebourne" or more
likley forgot the references and have specially named units, such as the
1066th Planetary Assault Division and the 677th Orbital Defense Brigade,
etc.

If I had decided to continue the "marine" concept to follow the "navy"
concept, they would be used as they were used in the Royal Navies (Dutch,
Belgian, French & British), primarily as shipbpard security to repel
boarders.

And as marines were often landed to deal with emplaced guns that threatened
ships or to raid enemy ports,  torch enemy ships in port, gather
intelligence for a planned naval raid, to "lower the chain" etc, or to hold
important "Naval" locations, ( such as South Georgia , the island not the US
state )
(All these have Traveller appropriate equivalents BTW)

So, Imperial Marines would be shipboard troops, would tend to have higher
numbers of zero-G / Low-G tranied troops than all but the specialist Orbital
Defence brigades and would tend to be involved in "ground" operations only
when they were the only troops available to the local Navy commender, such
as when a single Imperial gunboat is out on patrol in the outback.

If a serious military engagement or seige was required, the Army would be
brought in.

But that's just how I would do it if I had a clean slate.


And just to keep Doug's stirring going :

>  Canada is a very good example of a Client State.

Yes, but currently it is a US client state.
<grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:25:07 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines [long]

>         Just wanted to comment on this last little bit.  The problem with
> these dictators is that they know that there is a un-written ROE amongst
> nations that says "no assassinating the other guy's President".  On Earth,
> RealLife(tm) say the US picked off and did so overtly (or even covert and
> the only the espionage community knew about it), say Saddam, as a method
of
> disposing of the threat.  That immediatley puts the US president in the
> firing line;  as has been proven at least twice in the 20th Century...
the
> Bad Guy will get through security.
>         So "we don't do that".

Actually, the other reason is that usually it is impossible
.
In the case of Saddam, for instance, the US _never_ knew where he was except
when he appeared publically, and they didn't know when that was going to
happen.

And the US president is _already_ in the firing line, ordering the deaths of
other leaders isn't going to make him any  less safer while president. The
major problem is that the US president may not be president in four years
time, and then it's relatively easy to off him.

I'd say Quadhafi left Reagan alive becuase he sensed a kindred spirit, and
because of the Moslem belief that madmen are holy. <grin>

>         They know this.  This affects how seriously they take the sabre
> rattling...  its just the peasants who are going to suffer, not them.
> They'll have lights,oil, food and medicine, even if thier subjects don't.
> So, they can ignore us.

Agreed

>         Remember the F-111 raid over Libya?  Heard anything from
al-Qadhafi
> since?  Nope.  They almost killed him...  He got the message.  He didn't
try
> a serious reprisal against the US, because he knew they'd get it right the
> second time.

Er, Michael, you don't consider the Locherby aircraft bombing,  the World
Trade Centre bombing, and the destruction of the Marine  barracks in Lebanon
"serious"  reprisals ?

These dictators are no fools, they know that no-one _cares_ if the US
president is killed, but that the best way to get American presidents to
change ther minds is to prey on the US public's squeamishness. Kill enough
US troops and civilians in messy ways and the US president will capitulate
and deal.

All that Quafhafi has done is not be able to _publically_ (in the sense of
world media attention) attack the US as much, largely because of US
political pressure on media organizations to _not_ publicize his rants (and
in England actual laws preventing such publicity, designed for the IRA but
just as effective against other terrorsists)

He's still out there training and funding terrorists and trying to get OPEC
to increase oil prices.

>         In the 3i, the Marines will get it right the first time. Some
Duke's
> cousin's fourth son doesn't have an inheritance, and y'know, that little
> world just might be the right opportunity for him to show his stuff.  So,
> yeah, if the local dictator doesn't catch on and play nice, make sure that
> he "gets dealt with" when the drop capsules start touching down in the
capital.

Which just makes Sector Dukes targets as well, and it's _so_ easy in the 3I
to conduct huge terrorist raids.

A spacecraft crash makes a bigger mess than a plane crash, and you only need
a couple of nukes a  few explosives, a textbook on orbital mechanics, and
some patience, to nudge a few rocks into a planet. They don't even need to
be near-C

>        Is yon petty dictator going to threaten to off the sub-sector duke
> if he gets sniped at?  Not a hope.

Of course he will.

>He'll hear the Marines are coming, and
> realize the quickest way to hang onto power is to meet the troop carrier
in
> orbit with his yacht and open the starport to them

Not at all.

 He'll force the Imperial Marines to bloodily kill a lot of his supporters
in ways that will make it seem the Sector Duke is being a bloodthirsty
psychotic, and then ensure that TAS and other news agencies gets lot of nice
gory news footage of Imperial Marine brutality, immediately lodge a protest
in the Imperial Senate, and start talking to the Sector Duke's rivals, and
request assitance from the  _Emperor_ according to the terms of their
membership in the Imperium against this renegade Duke.

Said dictator is not scared of being killed, the marines will be hard
pressed to find him, and the only real way to get him would be to slag the
whole planet, which would play right into his hands.

While your scenario is possible, mine is just as possible, you can't be
guaranteed that  any particular dictator is
going to act in any particular way.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 21:46:42 PDT
From: Timothy Courson <timothy_courson@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hexagons

There really is no problem. This is a gaming system. If you want it to be as 
realistic as possible then you must realize that jump does not actually 
exist.

The hex system is a simplified representation of an effect that allows 
extradimensional travel. Somewhere in the thread someone suggested that 
maybe the worlds do not even exist in the same universe. Well, certainly 
jump is travel outside this universe. The hex system showes a relationship 
between star systems other than strict positional relationship as viewed in 
this universe. Stars, being the great power sources they are have effects in 
dimensions other then our own. The jump "distance" one must cover to move 
between them is dependent upon a different set of physical laws. Just 
because two stars are between 2.7 ly and 3.7 ly apart here does not mean 
that their sphere of influence in jump space is the same "distance" apart.

The hex mapping system is kind of like those city maps where specific 
buildings are shown in an exaggerated porportion and most buildings are not 
shown at all. You can still get where you want using the map. Since you are 
not going to travel through normal space to get to another system why do you 
need a map that would show you how?

Timothy_Courson@Hotmail.com


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:43:04 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships

>Unless I get overruled, GT: Starships is going to say that 1 million dtons
>is the largest starship that has been built to date, but that there is
>theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired.

For the sake of all of us running campaigns predating milieu 1100, please
don't do this. My campaign includes ships far in excess of 1M dtons and I
don't need any rules lawyers telling me I'm running my campaign "wrong".
Yes, it's "M"TU, but so far I have not done anything which outright
contradicts G:T.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:35:54 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Upper Sizes of Ships

While doing a TNE version of the 75,000 dt Regal class battlecruiser I ran
into the surface area problem. In order to get everything to fit I had to
give the ship a hybrid needle/wedge configuration with an airframe. The
sight of one of these screaming through an atmosphere would be a novel, and
rather terrifying way of "showing the flag"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:13:36 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnetatt.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...



>
> Ok, if the required level from the template is equivilent to BD-0 in
> other versions, or can be reduced to the equivilent of BD-0 due to lack
> of use or recertification, Then I remove my objections. (I do not yet
> understand GURPS).
>

Does that mean that a PC that retains at least BD-1 has to fork out cash (I
can't see free testing, someone has to pay for the equipment, time, and
expendables?) to remain certified?  If not using it means not "retaining"
the skills that weren't rolled, then retaining said skills require frequent
testing and expense out of service??

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:41:59 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> At the
> commoner level, civilian values in the Imperium are all over the place;
> the Imperium is a great hodgepodge of societies and species.  At the
> noble level, however, the values of honor, loyalty, and obedience are
> themselves military values, and nobles pervade the IM and IN, in both
> the officer and enlisted ranks.  I think that the Imperial armed
> services, especially the IM and IN, will identify strongly with the
> Imperial nobility.

First, we need to ask how real are "the values of honor, loyalty, and
obedience" to the nobility.  Obviously it will vary from TU to TU, and from
noble to noble.  Personally, I tend to regard the nobility as something
akin to a bunch of soap opera millionaires - like on Dallas, or all those
other shows I've never watched - sleazy, unprincipled and decadent
intriguers.

Either way, the Imperial armed forces will identify strongly with the
Imperial nobility for the very simple reason that that's who they work for.
 The Imperial armed forces do not belong to the 'citizens'  of the Imperium
for the simple reason that the Imperium has no citizens (apart from the
nobility), only subjects.
 
> In my Traveller universe, that strong identification was a problem that
> fed the Civil Wars.  Nobles might be granted starships or fleets as
> fiefs, so the crews would owe loyalty to them.  Nobles had the right and
> obligation to raise other military forces as well.  Naval and military
> personnel owed personal loyalty to the nobles first, not to the
> Emperor.  After the Civil Wars, Arbellatra as Regent and then Empress
> reformed the Imperial armed forces in various ways to make the loyalty
> to the Emperor and to the idea of the Imperium central.

This is YTU, of course.

Actually, I've been thinking about the Civil War period too.  (I haven't
quite got any documents in a fit state yet, but I'm thinking about posting
some to the list.)

I see the Imperial Navy/Marines as having been the only true all-Imperial
institutions at the beginning of the Civil War.  The idea is that
hault-Planckwell's coup was a coup by the Navy, in order to reverse the
centrifugal drift within the Imperium that had led to near-disaster in the
Frontier War.  The Navy had to do it, because the civil authorities - the
nobility - were (supposedly) too caught up in looking after their own
interests and fiefs to be able to effectively rule the whole Imperium.

This essentially means that for the duration of the Civil War, the old
Imperial constitution was suspended, being replaced by martial law.  When
normality was restored afterwards, the new 'constitution' was significantly
more centralised, involving such things as cutting back the authority of
the Archdukes. 

So in military terms, at the beginning of the way the nobility was
'interfering' in the management of the Navy/Marines, during the war the
Admirals were 'interfering' in civil administration, and afterwards, each
section of the Imperial system was doing what it was supposed to be doing. 
(Long live Arbellatra!)

Of course all of this is IMTU, and worse, it's only one specific view of
the history IMTU.  Whole libraries have been filled with other
interpretations...  :)

I'm writing this while watching TV, so it isn't particularly clearly
expressed.  Sorry.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:33:37 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In

> From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" 
> The difference between politicians and the media:  the first wants to
> exploit your feelings to manipulate YOU, the second wants to exploit your
> feelings to manipulate OTHERS.  Very sick people.  At least the
capitalist
> are only after my money! :-D

The real question is:  who _owns_  the media.  Then again, who _owns_ the
politicians? :|

Hmm.  Perhaps it's time to take the happy happy pills again and not have
bad thoughts.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 08:41:52 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships

At 10:43 PM 03/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>Unless I get overruled, GT: Starships is going to say that 1 million dtons
>>is the largest starship that has been built to date, but that there is
>>theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired.
>
>For the sake of all of us running campaigns predating milieu 1100, please
>don't do this. My campaign includes ships far in excess of 1M dtons and I
>don't need any rules lawyers telling me I'm running my campaign "wrong".
>Yes, it's "M"TU, but so far I have not done anything which outright
>contradicts G:T.
>
        I second the motion...  I have a campaign written around a 1
*billion* ton ship, and if/when we switch to GT I'd hate to have the rules
limiting me.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:03:39 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships

- ----------
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships
> Date: Sunday, 04 July, 1999 7:41 AM
> 
> At 10:43 PM 03/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >>Unless I get overruled, GT: Starships is going to say that 1 million
dtons
> >>is the largest starship that has been built to date, but that there is
> >>theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired.
> >
> >For the sake of all of us running campaigns predating milieu 1100,
please
> >don't do this. My campaign includes ships far in excess of 1M dtons and
I
> >don't need any rules lawyers telling me I'm running my campaign "wrong".
> >Yes, it's "M"TU, but so far I have not done anything which outright
> >contradicts G:T.
> >
>         I second the motion...  I have a campaign written around a 1
> *billion* ton ship, and if/when we switch to GT I'd hate to have the
rules
> limiting me.

Oh, for crying out loud.  Did you read what he wrote?  The bit about "there
is
theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired" would
seem to cover both of these situations perfectly.  This is less restrictive
than the language in High Guard, which sort of implies you can't build
anything larger than 1,000,00dtons.

Once you get into variant campaigns, it's really silly to demand that
nothing in GT contradict your setting.  If your players aren't adult enough
to accept such a minor divergence from the text, then you have some real
problems.  One thing that GURPS is very big on: all rules are optional.
(That's why it has so many.)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 22:18:51 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> Actually, we've found that the *biggest* habitat is inside the crust!
> The single-celled organisms in deep rock may well outmass the rest of
> the biosphere.:-)

I emphasised this very point in an earlier post entitled 'Xenobiology
101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells' (which was posted last Wednesday,
my time).
> * Multicellularity : the grand experiment
> Most terrestrial life is made up of single celled organisms without
> nuclei (prokaryotes or bacteria). Depending on which estimates you read,
> most of the Earth's biomass could actually be subsurface bacteria.

You also wrote :-
> Actually *oxygen* is almost as reactive as fluorine. Thus things like
> forest fires. The big drawback with flurine as an oxidant is figuring
> out how the plants can get enough energy to produce free fluorine!

Yep, local oxygen fractions of 26-28% (vs. basal 21%) are all that are
required to start a forest fire, even in *wet* vegetation. I don't think
fluorine synthesis by biological systems is possible or plausible for
the reason you mentioned - it's too damned expensive!

> Alas, it's not stable under those conditions. If there's that much HF
> around, there *won't* be more than traces of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Doh! I was trying to make some sense out of the entry in BtC. We need to
find a gas with a high critical pressure/temperature that will lead to
the required greenhouse effect to reconcile the high average surface
temperature and the requirement for oceans of hydrogen fluoride. Or we
scrap one of the latter parameters.

> Since the rock would be a *lot* more porous (due to the HF) I can see
> life going a lot farther in the deep crust.
So can I, and this is possibly where the Vili actually live. As I have
said above, I'm trying to make sense of this world from the G:T version
of the Spinward Marches.

> Hey! That's it! How about an ecology on something like Io that's based
> on using all that free sulfur?

Yes, the most likely metabolic pathway for energy production would
involve sulphur -> hydrogen sulphide. 'Photosynthesis' would be the
reverse of this. Earthly thiobacteria use this trick to survive in deep
in hot springs, for example. 

Thanks Leonard for your other comments and suggestions and the repost of
the biomes list.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 22:19:05 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
(in response to a post by Ian Ferguson) 
> Exoskeltons, maybe. For tracheal resipiration, I want some hard
> figures. 

O.K.
If you are referring to creatures that breathe through a 'windpipe',
inflating lungs which serve the purpose of gas exchange with the
bloodstream, some numbers to think about are :-

i. Metabolic rate - remember that this obeys Klieber's law and varies
directly with oxygen consumption.

**metabolic rate in kJ/hour = 17.42 X (mass in kg)^0.75 for mammals**

Each litre of oxygen consumed (at standard laboratory conditions,
25 degrees Celsius and one atmosphere (101kPa, 14.5 psi, 760 Torr)
pressure) liberates 4.82kcal or 20.15kJ].

ii. Dead space - that region of the respiratory system that doesn't
participate in gas exchange with the blood (and gas flow - harder to
breathe through a long skinny tube than a short fat one). Normal
physiological dead space in man is about 2mL/kg, with a tidal volume of
7-10mL/kg.

iii. The amount of energy it takes to breathe (in man, about 5% of
resting metabolism is work of breathing) which is a function of lung and
chest wall compliance. Lung and chest wall compliance is about 200mL per
cm water distending pressure in man (overall 100mL per cm H2O for the
system, compliances adding in parallel).
	Peak inspiratory pressure is 30-35 cm water.
 	[E.g. consider that whales must rely significantly on the weight of
their bodies being neutralised by water - beached whales die usually of
respiratory failure ; or the cases of people with end-stage emphysema or
in hypermetabolic states e.g. sepsis often require more oxygen to work
their respiratory muscles than they can actually inhale, etc.]

iv. The amount of energy it takes to circulate blood, which is a
function of its viscosity, vascular compliance, etc. The heart consumes
27mL of oxygen (volume at 298K, 1 atm pressure) per minute in an adult
human at rest (whole body consumption is 250 mL O2/min) to perform this
task.

Since metabolic rate is very well matched with organ perfusion and
ventilatory mechanics, the answer must lie in the materials our creature
is made of.

The largest dinosaurs probably represent the upper bound on size for
terrestrial life. Bone is only so strong - it's only calcium salts after
all!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 09:43:06 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships

>Oh, for crying out loud.  Did you read what he wrote?  The bit about "there
>is
>theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired" would
>seem to cover both of these situations perfectly.  This is less restrictive
>than the language in High Guard, which sort of implies you can't build
>anything larger than 1,000,00dtons.

        Hi, Thomas...  Very sorry..  I missed that line when I read the
message...  that'll teach me to respond to e-mail with my two-year-old son
sitting on my lap =).  Ingore my comments.  My apologies.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 09:11:41 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> 
> Date sent:              Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:24:48 -0400
> From:                   Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
> 
> > > Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
> > > is something over 200,000 AU.
> 
> > Correct me if I am wrong, but ins't a parsec approximately 3.21 light
> > years in distance?  200,000 AU seems pretty far even for 1 parsec.
> 
> 3.26 ly or 205,755.52 AU or 30,863,332,800,000 Km.

Thank you.  My stupid calculator was unable to do tha math.  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 09:42:00 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: copyrights

thanks for the help

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:03:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

>Canada has never had Marines because of its close relationship with Great
>Britain.  Marines are a force-projection arm, and Canada hasn't needed to
>do that.  Canada is a very good example of a Client State.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net

It's worth noting that, while we've never been in the conquering mode, we
have done a decent job at force projection. One beach at Normandy, troops
committed to every UN peacekeeping operation, Vietnam, Desert Storm,
Rwanda, Somalia, Yugoslavia.... all with a population less than 10% of the
USA (and a smaller economy).

ObTrav: What Imperial client states provide troops?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:03:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

>>IIRC, Gary Gregor ordered his Marine escort to play "Will Ye Nae Come Back
>>Again?" to the retreating enemy, just to rub salt in their wounds. :-)
>>
>        That is the veritable definition of cruel and unusual punishment.

Nothing cruel about it. The pipers didn't pursue.


"Will ye nay say where the rest o your laddies be?  Nay?  Donal, be a giud
lad and play the mon that wee tune ye started learning yesterday."

That, I'll admit, was cruel.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:03:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

>> From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
>
>> My question is whether there's really a need for a distinct GURPS Traveller
>> list.  I don't like the implication that GT players should go somewhere
>> else and stop bothering "real" Traveller players.  Maybe I'm being
>> oversensitive, but having a separate list seems to be a step in that
>> direction.
>
>Now begins again the Great TML Discussion of How Many Lists Are We?
>When GDW produced TNE, the TML, after much discussion, split into the
>TML (for TNE discussions) and X-Boat List (for CT and MT).  I hope we
>don't go down that path again.
>
>--Glenn

Actually, the TML stayed as an "all Traveller" list, and those who hated
TNE so much that they didn't want to hear about it moved over.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 08:38:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)

At 07:41 PM 7/4/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Either way, the Imperial armed forces will identify strongly with the
>Imperial nobility for the very simple reason that that's who they work for.
> The Imperial armed forces do not belong to the 'citizens'  of the Imperium
>for the simple reason that the Imperium has no citizens (apart from the
>nobility), only subjects.

The way I see it, the Armies of the various subsectors answer to the local
Duke.  since the Army's main job is to defend that subsector in concert
witht he Armies of the adjacent subsectors, this makes sense.

The Marines answer to the Emperor.  While a Regiment is tied to a numbered
Fleet, they can range wide and far when called for.  Each Marine takes a
personal oath to the sitting Emperor.  If the Emperor dies, the Marines
retake their oath to the new guy.

<snip>

>I see the Imperial Navy/Marines as having been the only true all-Imperial
>institutions at the beginning of the Civil War.  The idea is that
>hault-Planckwell's coup was a coup by the Navy, in order to reverse the
>centrifugal drift within the Imperium that had led to near-disaster in the
>Frontier War.  The Navy had to do it, because the civil authorities - the
>nobility - were (supposedly) too caught up in looking after their own
>interests and fiefs to be able to effectively rule the whole Imperium.
>
>This essentially means that for the duration of the Civil War, the old
>Imperial constitution was suspended, being replaced by martial law.  When
>normality was restored afterwards, the new 'constitution' was significantly
>more centralised, involving such things as cutting back the authority of
>the Archdukes. 
>
>So in military terms, at the beginning of the way the nobility was
>'interfering' in the management of the Navy/Marines, during the war the
>Admirals were 'interfering' in civil administration, and afterwards, each
>section of the Imperial system was doing what it was supposed to be doing. 
>(Long live Arbellatra!)

This is how I see the Civil War also, and I've always loved the image of
Grand Admiral Plankwell marching into the decadent court of Jacqueline;
denouncing her as a traitor to the citizens of the Imperium, and shooting
her as perfumed courtiers run screaming.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #814
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 815



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Notice
Re: Dirigible Combat
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)
Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
tne-rces list?
Re: Dirigible Combat
The Imperial Policy Debates #2
Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Star Trigger threat?
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Traveller mail lists
Re: 1 million dton starships
KP with Battle dress (longish)
Re: Hexagons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:46:11 +0100
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Notice

Just a reminder that the TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) can be found
at:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

or by email from:

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-html

for the HTML version

or

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-text

for the text version.

There are also (slightly out-of-date) versions available from the MPGN ftp
server:

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-html.zip (HTML)

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-text.zip (Text)

For those of you new to the list, it's worth getting a copy of the FAQ
simply for the glossary, which reveals the meanings of such esoteric
abbreviations as AAB, IMTU, ObTrav and FLGS.

The main changes this month are:

Added a link to Marc Miller's Copyright FAQ
Added 'What do I need to play GURPS Traveller?' entry
Added 'How do I contact Marc Miller?' entry

As always, comments, corrections and material to fill the gaps welcome.

Stuart.
- ----
Stuart Squibb
Newport, Isle of Wight, England
scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
TML-FAQ: http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:42:26 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Dirigible Combat

>> I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
>> campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves something
to
>> be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
>> The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
>> help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would
be
>> great.
>>
>> They look so fragile and such easy targets, but many of them had to be
tough
>> enough to do ocean crossings, and in those days they had smoking
sections -
>> even on the hydrogen filled ones. Shiver.

>
>Again, *because* they have to be *very* light, the structures of a
>dirigible just *can't* take all that much extra stress.

I'm not a materials engineer, but it seems to me that modern materials would
make this less of a problem. Wouldn't thinks like graphite and plastics be
much stronger and lighter than anything available in the 1920's or 1930's? I
expect that GTL-10 materials would be able to solve these structural
problems.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:31:39 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>And the US president is _already_ in the firing line, ordering the deaths
of
>other leaders isn't going to make him any  less safer while president. The
>major problem is that the US president may not be president in four years
>time, and then it's relatively easy to off him.

Saddam made that mistake with Bush. When Clinton sent the Navy and Air Force
to remind him that it was unsafe to directly attempt to kill a former U.S.
President he seemed to get the message, as former President Bush has not
been targeted since.

>He'll force the Imperial Marines to bloodily kill a lot of his supporters
>in ways that will make it seem the Sector Duke is being a bloodthirsty
>psychotic, and then ensure that TAS and other news agencies gets lot of
nice
>gory news footage of Imperial Marine brutality, immediately lodge a protest
>in the Imperial Senate, and start talking to the Sector Duke's rivals, and
>request assistance from the  _Emperor_ according to the terms of their
>membership in the Imperium against this renegade Duke.

This pre-supposes a contemporary western ideological slant on the part of
both TNS and the Imperial citizenry.  During many periods of history
elimination of enemy populations and leaders was an accepted practice.  It
is only recently, with the isolation from violence permitted by modern
western life, that such practices are seen as morally repugnant.

As a further example take Vietnam. (Not trying to start a flame war here.
The follow stance is for illustration only and does not necessarily reflect
deep seated personal beliefs.)  The American public was aghast at the
violence going on in Vietnam against the Vietnam people, which is one reason
that the government lost the support for the war. The last holdouts in the
anti-war sentiment were the middle aged men who, as young men, had fought in
W.W.II.  They weren't shocked by the violence. their thoughts, more often
than not, was disbelief that their fellow Americans were shocked by the
violence. "What did they think war was?" they were probably asking
themselves.

Another example. After the Indian Mutiny (185758, revolt that began with
Indian soldiers in the Bengal army of the British East India Company.) the
British Army tied rebels that surrendered to the front of cannon and
executed them. No one in Britain or the British press made that big a deal
out of it. Now it's a big thing. (I'm not picking on the British Empire. The
U.S. is guilty of similar atrocities against the Native American peoples.)
The point is, if the government and its people think that such actions are
okay them there will be not public outcry.

If Imperial citizens, as a whole, expect war to be a messy violent business,
which it is, then calls of excessive violence will be met by "So? What did
they expect the Imperial Marines were going to do?" rather than "We're
simply **shocked** that an Imperial Marine would do such a thing!"

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 12:47:59 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)

Alan Bradley wrote:

> First, we need to ask how real are "the values of honor, loyalty, and
> obedience" to the nobility.  Obviously it will vary from TU to TU, and from
> noble to noble.  Personally, I tend to regard the nobility as something
> akin to a bunch of soap opera millionaires - like on Dallas, or all those
> other shows I've never watched - sleazy, unprincipled and decadent
> intriguers.

Its important to remember that there are different types of nobles.
We have High, Honor and Rank nobles.  (I'm using Milieu 0 as a reference.)

Honor Nobles are rewarded for heroism, innovation, commercial success, etc.
with a noble title.  The possible ranks for Honor Nobles is Knight, Baron and
Marquis.  Baron and Marquis titles may be given with or without heriditary.
(IMO, heriditary would be the rare exception, and these would be the vast
majority of nobles encountered.).

There are two types of Rank Nobles.  One is the local noble in a system which
isn't worthy of the concern of a High Noble.  Usually heriditary with a seat in

the Moot, but no real authority out of their local sphere, one or two systems.
The other type of Rank Noble is often a civilian system administrator for
worlds
without Imperial representation.  This type is never heriditary and has no Moot

privileges.

Finally, there is the High Noble.  The smallest portion comprised of the old
families.  New high nobles are rare in the extreme and require the Moot's
confirmation.  These are always heriditary and come with Fiefs.  These
are the nobles of the nobles.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:49:29 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

>If I was writing Traveller from scratch, I'd likely have dropped the
>archaic "marine"  title and used either "Airbourne" or "Spacebourne" or more
>likley forgot the references and have specially named units, such as the
>1066th Planetary Assault Division and the 677th Orbital Defense Brigade,
>etc.

IMTU, the Imperial armed forces have two arms: the Navy and the Marines.
The Navy fly the ships; the Marines are the troops who are sent out.
"Army" is used only to refer to planetary ground forces that belong to
a specific planet's own armed forces, rather than to the Imperium.

(In fact, this was my understanding about how the Imperial armed forces
were organized for quite a long time. (I started playing Traveller in
1981.))

This means that when the Imperium sends troops, it's the Marines they
send. (What I've done, essentially, is to combine the Marines and Army
into a single unit and call them "Marines"...)

>And just to keep Doug's stirring going :
>
>>  Canada is a very good example of a Client State.
>
>Yes, but currently it is a US client state.
><grin>

I'm a Canadian, and I have no problem with this statement... :)



     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 13:57:03 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

At 10:49 AM 04/07/1999 -0600, you wrote:

        Hi, Glenn!

>IMTU, the Imperial armed forces have two arms: the Navy and the Marines.
>The Navy fly the ships; the Marines are the troops who are sent out.
>"Army" is used only to refer to planetary ground forces that belong to
>a specific planet's own armed forces, rather than to the Imperium.

        Same here.

>(In fact, this was my understanding about how the Imperial armed forces
>were organized for quite a long time. (I started playing Traveller in
>1981.))

        Same here.  On both counts.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 14:03:28 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

At 11:03 AM 04/07/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>>IIRC, Gary Gregor ordered his Marine escort to play "Will Ye Nae Come Back
>>>Again?" to the retreating enemy, just to rub salt in their wounds. :-)
>>>
>>        That is the veritable definition of cruel and unusual punishment.
>
>Nothing cruel about it. The pipers didn't pursue.
>

        ROTFLAMO!

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 10:10:59 -0700
From: James <Azgamer@mail.gci-net.com>
Subject: tne-rces list?

Hello all,
 
 Am back on the net after almost a year off-line and tried to subscribe
 to the
 TNE mailing list and keep getting a user unknown for a replay.
 Is it gone or has it moved?
 
  Thanks..
 
 TNE Depot
 http://www.gci-net.com/users/s/skoal/tne.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:46:15 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Dirigible Combat

This may or may not help,
but http://www.caco.demon.co.uk/2300ad/Contents.html
Has some design sequences for airships for 2300 AD.
It might give you an idea of how large and how tough they really are.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 22:24:55 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: The Imperial Policy Debates #2

[Launching right into persona]

I am glad to see the Journal once again able to reach this area;
perhaps it is indicative of a possible settling down of the
political situation in the Core.

I question, though, whether Admiral Alkhalikoi's proclamation of
a Regency is really in the best interests of Imperial stability.
Under her plan, the Regency would be maintained until an heir of
the Zhunastu or Lentuli lines could be found, and then that heir
would take the Throne - but what is the real likelihood of such
being found?  No, I suspect that this is merely a manoeuvre to
seize the Imperial power and exercise it, without even a veneer
of legality to grant the authority to exercise it. And who is to
decide whether a supposed heir is in fact legitimate? Not merely
a coup d'etat, as we have frequently seen over the last years, in
other words, but a naked power grab and the imposition of an
outright military dictatorship. 

The Moot has already offered their support for Admiral Alkhalikoi
taking the Throne as Empress, acknowledging that her trump, the
Frontier Fleet, de facto beats their authority to make the
decision under the Warrant. As Empress or as Regent, she _will_
have the support of the Moot in her efforts, whatever the reason;
the Moot are not stupid.  As Empress, she could wield the
Imperial Power without restriction, and still adopt a
hypothetical Lentuli or Zhunastu heir, designate such heir to
succeed her, and then abdicate, accomplishing her aims. Yet she
instead chooses this route that has only a weak basis in
historical - pre-Imperial, in fact - precedent, and none in law.
Why is this? I cannot answer this question, or propose any
reasonable hypothesis; the political situation is still too
unclear for me to do a cogent analysis. I eagerly await
additional information, and comment from the other readers of
this Journal.

Aquinas
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:28:18 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 04 July 1999 16:51
Subject: Re: Marine culture (was: Imperial Marines)


>At 07:41 PM 7/4/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>>Either way, the Imperial armed forces will identify strongly with the
>>Imperial nobility for the very simple reason that that's who they work
for.
>> The Imperial armed forces do not belong to the 'citizens'  of the
Imperium
>>for the simple reason that the Imperium has no citizens (apart from the
>>nobility), only subjects.
>
>The way I see it, the Armies of the various subsectors answer to the local
>Duke.  since the Army's main job is to defend that subsector in concert
>witht he Armies of the adjacent subsectors, this makes sense.
>
>The Marines answer to the Emperor.  While a Regiment is tied to a numbered
>Fleet, they can range wide and far when called for.  Each Marine takes a
>personal oath to the sitting Emperor.  If the Emperor dies, the Marines
>retake their oath to the new guy.
>


<snip>

A simple "... and his(her) Heirs and successors according to Law." would
probably be enough, and make life easier.  Though, of course, you can get
into problems in a civil war / no clear legitimate emporer situation.
Though who would the marines pick in suck a situation anyway if the had to
swear a personal fealty to a named emporer each time one was *replaced*

regards,

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:55:03 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

Dear Folks -

Anthony replied to Hans:
>> Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
>> is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?

>Sub-nova level flares?  At a parsec, doubt its much more dangerous than a
heavy
>solar storm.

Correct with regard to the flare itself - they only toasted one side of
Darrain. However, it's the EMP effect that devastated Darrian's colonies
for a distance of 3 to 5 hexes in every direction. Even though they had a
"shut-down" day while the wavefront passed each colony system, not
everything survived.

These days, all Darrain equipment is shielded to prevent such a thing
happening again, so the Darrains are probably not so worried. ;-)

However, the idea of a total war against Darrian if they ever USED the Star
Trigger is reasonable. The Trigger should be viewed the same way that nukes
are viewed today - something you Do Not use. If you are directly invaded,
however, things may change - would the US start using neotron bombs if the
mainland was invaded? That was NATO's basis of operations against the
Soviets for many years.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:38:06 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:25:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>Actually, we've found that the *biggest* habitat is inside the crust!
>The single-celled organisms in deep rock may well outmass the rest of
>the biosphere.:-)

You should underline "may" a few times.  This claim is very speculative.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 21:52:52 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

At 12:07 PM 7/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>----------
>> 
>> >And... because sooner or later someone would do it anyway, I've
set up a
>> >gurpstraveller list.
>> >http://www.egroups.com/group/gurpstraveller/
>> 
>> Hmm I really have problems with open, web-based lists.  Perhaps
one done
>> through one-list?
>
>My question is whether there's really a need for a distinct GURPS
Traveller
>list.  I don't like the implication that GT players should go
somewhere
>else and stop bothering "real" Traveller players.  Maybe I'm being

	PLEASE don't start a separate GT list ... the TNE/CT schism was bad
enough, and the X-Boat list is now gone and dead. I own absolutely 0
(zero, nought, nothing) from GURPS, but I still cherish the
additional viewpoints. And so much Traveller stuff is fairly
rule/milieu neutral.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:28:36 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships

>Oh, for crying out loud.  Did you read what he wrote?  The bit about "there
>is
>theoretically no reason one couldn't build larger ships if desired" would
>seem to cover both of these situations perfectly.

I read it. The part that does not cover the situation perfectly is "1
million dtons is the largest starship that has been built to date". This is
not a statement of the rules used to construct ships, it is a statement of
the Traveller timeline.

>This is less restrictive
>than the language in High Guard, which sort of implies you can't build
>anything larger than 1,000,00dtons.

Not true. High Guard doesn't give rules for building things larger than 1M
dtons, but using FF&S or something that does have such rules does not
invalidate High Guard. Saying nothing larger than 1M dtons *has ever
existed* does, however, invalidate any such constructions by any other
rules.

>Once you get into variant campaigns, it's really silly to demand that
>nothing in GT contradict your setting.

I never made any such demand. The original poster was proposing wording for
a future supplement. I assumed he was soliciting feedback and not demanding
all referees follow the proposal.

I have grown tired of the claim that every Traveller campaign is its own
setting and therefore no one needs to make any effort to keep it
consistent. The reasons why I disagree are too long to go into here,
however even if it was true it does not imply it's "silly" to point out
where a *proposal* for a *future* supplement will have bad consequences. I
attempt to follow the published timeline as much as makes sense. And this
proposal does not make sense.

First, megastructures are a popular theme in science fiction and it's
unreasonable to constrain referees by declaring all such starships to be
"variant settings", especially when there is nothing in the previously
published material which requires it to be.

Second, megastructures far in excess of 1M dtons, like Gateway Station, the
Tireen rosette, and Trevannic Alpha have already been published in
Traveller. There is nothing in the rules which make these designs
impossible for starships. On the contrary, it implies that they *are*
possible.

Third, I am extremely dubious of rulings which state that although
something is technically feasible, none of the trillions of sophonts has
ever done it in the millenia of Traveller history. In my opinion this is
contrived beyond credibility.

Forth, such a ruling is totally unnecessary. Simply leaving it out does not
change any existing rules or history, does not affect anyone's campaign,
and does not require rationalizations why something that is feasible has
never been done.


- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:58:17 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: KP with Battle dress (longish)

Lets look at a hostile takeover by Marines of a high tech world with good
infrastucture. Then look at the logistics behind it. And remember , this is
TL15 (GTL12).

Step 1: Initial bombardment by the Navy.

Logistics : None. (All Navy)

Step 2: Establish Beach-head

The Initial deployment of drop troops and outriders (jump pack), stiking
down vital enemy instalations and establishing a landing zone.

Logistics :

Power (The power would all be internal , but the consumption of power will
be a telling factor, especially if you need those FMPG againt those
rascally enemy. Lets say 80hours [as per GURPS]).

Food (Again, food/water would be internal or carried by troops. At most we
would be talking a week, but a better figure would be 1 day).

Transport (mainly at this stage for dust offs, as most navy/marine
transport is dedicated with the beachhead establshment)

Step 3: Consolidate

The beach head is now established , and protected by a perimiter of
marines. Outriders and assult gruops ranging out from the perimiter.

Logistics:

Power (Those batteries or power packs need refuleing at this time).

Food (So do those troops)

Transport (Again, dispersed troops need to have their food and power. Those
Close to the beachhead can walk for their fiddles).

***************************************************************************
***************************************************************************
**

So, in the first three stages, we see that the third step require transport
to supply forward elements, but all elements need logistical support. Since
Loren has said that all Marines have BD and FMPG's, and cannon states that
the marines do not have instringic vehicals, how can we do this?

NAVY.

The Imperial Navy would have the infrastructure to do all this. They would
proberby have a Battle Dress Tender pinnace or ship's boat, with extra
armour and possably support weapons (missiles, heavy fusion beams and nukes
bigger than tactical size). They would allow support of forward troops
(along with fighter support), be able to recharge power cells and provide
field rations for extended piriods on the field.

These Tenders would also allow the rotation of troops back to non combat
areas, and allow better reallocation of troops in areas that need to be
reinforced etc. The Tender  can still kick ass if needed. Treat the Tender
as a cross from AMTRACKS, Battallion HQ and Evac transport.

The tender would be a reserve force, controlled either by the Senior Naval
officer, or Senior Marine Officer, depending on the situation.

On the beachhead, Navy units would establish an interface area, (like in
WWII, where the Navy controlled up to the waterline. In Traveller, this
would be the landing zone). The HQ would be a simple field HQ, with the
theatre Command and Control onboard a starship. There would be no need for
a Field Hospital, as the wounded would be transported back to the fleet
hospital ship. All that would be needed would be a marine First Aid post. A
small logistical base would be set up, possably with a field kitchen, but
more than likely a freezer/heater unit that stores food prepared on a ship
(they use this now in hospitals, in TL15/GT12 this should be a no brainer.
These would be under the auspice of the Navy, as they would be the one
ensuring all the required materials would be there for the marines.

So the huge logistical base that a modern army has today, would be assumed
by the Imperial Navy, allowing a higher percentage of marines to do what
they do best....making the enemy respect their authority!


Darryl



Visit our Web Site : http://www.ParraCity.nsw.gov.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:33:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hexagons

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> >> >You *can* stack spheres, but for maps or co-ordinate systems, gaps are
>> >> >a no-no.
>> >
>> > Why would a gap be a no no?  The coordinates get you to the center of
>> > the sphere and then you switch to a relative coordinate system which
>> > could extend into "gap space".  You could also have spherical overlap
>> > where a specific point is within two or more spheres.
>>
>> Remember, the point of a co-ordinate system is to *uniquely* identify
>> *all* points.
>
> Using that logic, the existing hex pattern couldn't be used.  There's close 
> to
> a square parsec of points that all have the same coordinate.  The hex pattern
> isn't a locator, its a classifier.  All points in that hex are labelled as
> such.

In the case of the hex map the "points" are the hexes. Gaps wouldn't
*have* a co-ordinate. Overlaps would have two equally valid co-ordinates.

>> Gaps and overlaps screw that up. If you "expand" the
>> spheres uniformly until they touch and allow them to distort until the
>> gaps are filled, you've got the octahedral/tetrahedral pattern I
>> mentioned a few posts back. Or you've got a cubic pattern. Or one of
>> the other 4 or 5 basic crystal structures. Since you want relatively
>> uniform axes in a co-ordinate system, that eliminates several crystal
>> structures that are essentially cubes stretched in various ways.
>
> Well the cannon shot stack is a skewed cubic pattern.

True. But as I noted before as far as co-ordinates go (and functions
for turning them into distances between "points"), a hex pattern and a
"staggered square" pattern are identical. Really!

For those of you who never ran into any old wargames using staggered
square maps, here's an example:

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
  +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+


This is equivalent to a hex map that has the "rows" running horizontal.

Likewise, the cannonball packing, turns out to work out the same as the
hexagonal prisms used in some 3-d game maps.

> I dunno.  Why use Hexagons?  I guess because some bean counter at Capitol
> thought computer memory was too expensive and decided to reduce the 
> coordinate system from 24 bytes down to 4.

Hexes get used on game maps because they give a closer approach to
"real" distances than any other "convenient" method. 

>> > And there's nothing wrong with having something labeled twice if it
>> > happens to be between or within multiple spheres.
>>
>> Sure there is. Which do you look it up under?
>
> Either.  It's just an index.  Multiple indices can point to the same object.

>> It can get *really*
>> embarassing if some vital bit of info (like the fact that the place is
>> a red zone) is filed under the *other* set of co-ordinates.
>
> It's not (unless you've got a bonehead bean counter back at Capitol trying to
> save half a nibble here and there).  An object with multiple indices will be
> the same object no matter which index you use to find it.

You've never worked with large databases, have you? That sort of
"non-unique key" is a problem *because* it *will* tend to get data that
should be together filed under different keys. 

You see, you use the "index" (the co-ordinate) as the key to *find*
info. And to link info. Thus, if as occasionally happens, a house on a
corner gets an address on *both* streets real estate and tax records
get horribly mangled. For example, you could run a title check on "1234
S 5th Street" and find no liens against the propert and no easements. 

But after you buy it, you discover that there are several liens on the
"523 W Adams Avenue" which is the address of the side of the house on
the *other* street. And a bi utility easement right through the middle
of where you'd planned to put the swimming pool. Oops.

*That* is the problem with multiple "addresses" that refer to the same
place. Things *won't* be filed under both. Just one or the other. Which
leads to nasty surprises.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #815
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 816



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: 1 million dton starships
Re: Star Trigger threat?
Re: Titan Games Preview for (7/4/99)
Twitchy Equipment
TML vs XML
Re Marines
Re: Ships Designs
Re: Upper Sizes of Ships
re: Star Trigger Threat?
Re: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:55:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

>> > I THINK its the issue with the picture of that ship from Niven's "The
>> > Mote in God's Eye" travelling accross the cover.  Not too sure.
>> 
>> That was in the 70s. I know, I have it. Remember, the *story* wasn't
>> written until then!
>
> Ahh.  I also have the glow-in-the-dark model of the McArthur, complete
> with opening cargo bay and tiny pinnace inside.  BTW, I love its
> design.  Far as I know, at time of creation, only 200 of these models
> were ever fabricated.  Know where I might pick up a mint copy?

A friend had the *original* model (something or other "Lief Ericson")
back in the mid 60s. I picked up the glow in the dark version in the
70s. I seriously doubt that production of the "UFO something or other"
*or* the "Lief Ericson" were less than multiple *thousands*. You
literally can't afford to fire up the injection molding machine that
produces the pieces for a run of less than 10,000 or so.

I still have my glow in the dark one. And it *ain't* for sale!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:59:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

In mail you write:

>> Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
>> is something over 200,000 AU. 
>> 
>> The planet was 1 AU away. That means that at 1 parsec the effects would
>> be 40 *billion* times weaker. At 2 parsecs they'd be 160 billion times
>> weaker. At 3 parsecs they'd be 360 billion times weaker.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but ins't a parsec approximately 3.21 light
> years in distance?  200,000 AU seems pretty far even for 1 parsec.

Nope. A parsec is *defined* as the distance at which a 2AU baseline
produces a parallax of 1 second of arc. The 2 AU baseline being the
width of Earth's orbit. 

That makes a parsec roughly arctan(.5") AU. 

From part 4 of the sci.space FAQ:

	1.496e11 m	 (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)
	9.46053e15 m	  (1e16) -- light year
	206264.806 AU	  (2e5)  -- one parsec
	3.2616 light years (3)	 -- one parsec
	3.0856e16 m	 (3e16)  -- one parsec

So as you can see, the distance is actually *more* than 200,000 AU!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 00:29:14 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> 
> A friend had the *original* model (something or other "Lief Ericson")
> back in the mid 60s. I picked up the glow in the dark version in the
> 70s. I seriously doubt that production of the "UFO something or other"
> *or* the "Lief Ericson" were less than multiple *thousands*. You
> literally can't afford to fire up the injection molding machine that
> produces the pieces for a run of less than 10,000 or so.
> 
> I still have my glow in the dark one. And it *ain't* for sale!

Actually I think it was Larry Niven himself in a publication who made
the claim there were 200 ever made.  Perhaps he was referring to the
originals?

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 00:30:40 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Hey, how do you crunch such large numbers?  my hand held calculator
poops out after 8 or 9 digits..
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:45:45 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

Date sent:      	Mon, 05 Jul 1999 00:30:40 -0400
From:           	Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>

> Hey, how do you crunch such large numbers?  my hand held calculator
> poops out after 8 or 9 digits..

Choose option
A) Get a bigger calculator
B) Use the calculator that comes with windows in scientific view
C) Divide the speed of light by 1,000,000 before you start

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 00:34:40 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

The Roc wrote:

>>
>> Ok, if the required level from the template is equivilent to BD-0 in
>> other versions, or can be reduced to the equivilent of BD-0 due to
lack
>> of use or recertification, Then I remove my objections. (I do not yet

>> understand GURPS).
>>
>
>Does that mean that a PC that retains at least BD-1 has to fork out
cash (I
>can't see free testing, someone has to pay for the equipment, time, and

>expendables?) to remain certified?  If not using it means not
"retaining"
>the skills that weren't rolled, then retaining said skills require
frequent
>testing and expense out of service??

No Doug had mentioned for retired marines a 1/2 point skill with BD,
this is a reduction from the active duty marine of a required 1 point BD
skill.  Also some people require continuing use and instruction to
retain skills and others do not.
I assumed that in previous versions of Traveller, that for PC's, once a
skill was learned that they did not loose the skill through lack of
use.  This makes the required BD skill in GT contrary to previous
versions.  I was trying to justify a required skill in GT that was not
required in previous versions.  Again my knowledge of GT is limited and
I do not understand such things work in this system.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:37:08 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: 1 million dton starships


>Not true. High Guard doesn't give rules for building things larger than 1M
>dtons, but using FF&S or something that does have such rules does not
>invalidate High Guard. Saying nothing larger than 1M dtons *has ever
>existed* does, however, invalidate any such constructions by any other
>rules.


Not at all. What it does do is give players a sense of the scale of the
Traveller universe.

>I never made any such demand. The original poster was proposing wording for
>a future supplement. I assumed he was soliciting feedback and not demanding
>all referees follow the proposal.


The truth of the matter is if you've got rules lawyers who would see such a
comment and gripe about really large ships in your campaign... well, you've
got some really big problems.

>I have grown tired of the claim that every Traveller campaign is its own
>setting and therefore no one needs to make any effort to keep it
>consistent. The reasons why I disagree are too long to go into here,


That's not what he was saying. In fact, what you're saying is that statement
is not applicable to *your* Traveller universe specifically and for some
reason you are incapable of communicating to your players that such a
comment has no bearing on *your* campaign.

I have grown tired of when ever anybody proposes an idea to the list for
helpful feedback people are so quick to try and influence the author with
ideas from their own Traveller universe, allowing their TU to become
"official" by proxy.

That's something I just don't get.

>however even if it was true it does not imply it's "silly" to point out
>where a *proposal* for a *future* supplement will have bad consequences. I
>attempt to follow the published timeline as much as makes sense. And this
>proposal does not make sense.


Are your players really that mean to you that simply stating, "Well, that's
the official GURPS Traveller universe, and while it is true for the general
'look and feel' of that universe, I feel that having really, really big
ships is interesting for *my* Traveller universe," won't get them off of
your back?

>First, megastructures are a popular theme in science fiction and it's
>unreasonable to constrain referees by declaring all such starships to be
>"variant settings", especially when there is nothing in the previously
>published material which requires it to be.


Am I missing something? Like the importance of everything being *official*?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 02:33:35 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

Just something I had saved that appears to be relevant to this
conversation.

bloo

- ----------------------------------

Subject:           [TWG] Astronomy 201
     Date:          Thu, 07 Jan 1999 14:37:06 -0500
     From:          Harold Hale <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
 Reply-To:           hiwg-twg@qrc.com
       To:           hiwg-twg@qrc.com, hiwg-twg-digest@qrc.com


   A story that appeared on the Fox News Web site.  Food for thought I
suppose for the star system generation discussion.

Sun-like stars have superflares powerful enough to fry
 planets
2.08 p.m. ET (1909 GMT) January 7, 1999

 By Paul Recer, Associated Press


 AUSTIN, Texas (AP)  Superflares powerful enough to fry nearby planets
 regularly erupt from distant stars that are just like the sun, but such
death-dealing explosions are unlikely to occur in the solar system, astronomers
say.

 Two Yale University researchers said Wednesday they have found nine
 solar-type stars that have erupted in flares up to 10 million times more
powerful than anything ever recorded from the sun. They have preliminary
evidence for at
 least seven others, they said.

 If the sun were to have such an eruption, said Bradley E. Schaefer, it could
 possibly cause mass extinctions, plunge the Earth into brief heat wave,
flood the planet with gamma and X-rays, melt electronics in orbiting
satellites,
cause global auroras and wipe out for up to two years all of the ozone that
protects the
Earth from harmful ultraviolet radiation.

 "The loss of ozone could kill the food chain and probably cause mass
 extinctions,'' Schaefer said.

 Even smaller bursts, he said, could burn out all of the electricity
distribution systems on Earth, plunging the planet into a global power outage.

 But the Yale professor said there is no evidence that such powerful
"superflares'' have ever erupted from the sun.

 "It's not going to happen here,'' Schaefer said repeatedly in a
presentation at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society.

 Schaefer said that an examination of astronomy archives uncovered proof that
 superflares erupt about once a century from G type, main sequence stars, the
 stellar type that is just like the Earth's own sun. The erupting stars are
up to 100 light years away and pose no threat to the Earth.

 "We found that superflares do occur on disturbingly normal solar-type
stars,'' said Schaefer.

 He said the superflares last for one hour to one week and cause the stars to
 brighten by up to 1,000 times their normal luminosity.

 Schaefer said he believes the sun will never erupt with such powerful flares
 because there is no evidence that it has ever happened during the 4 billion
year history of the sun.

 The sun has been scientifically studied for more than 150 years and the most
 powerful solar flares detected have been only a fraction of energy in
superflares, he said.

 Additionally, astronomy records going back for 2,000 years have never recorded

 a superflare from the sun, said Schaefer. And, furthermore, such a superflare
 would have melted the ice on the moons of Jupiter and left smooth frozen
plains. Recent spacecraft pictures of the moons show no such evidence, he said.

 Eric P. Rubenstein, another Yale astronomer, said the eruptions probably occur

 because the distant stars have Jupiter-sized planets in a very close orbit.

 Giant planets in orbit close to a star, he said, would cause a twisting and
 stretching of the magnetic fields that radiate out from stars and from most
planets. The twisted magnetic field lines eventually would explode with a
sudden release
 of energy.

 He said his proposed superflare process is rather like what happens when
rubber
 bands are twisted and twisted until they finally break and snap. The result
is a sudden release of energy.

 Rubenstein said that if his theory is correct, it would explain why the sun
has
 never had a superflare. Jupiter and Saturn do have strong magnetic fields,
but the giant gaseous planets are both too far out to interact powerfully with
the
magnetic field of the sun, he said.

- -30-

Regards,

Harold



david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Anthony replied to Hans:
> >> Just how credible is a threat to set off a Star Trigger in a system that
> >> is as close to Darrian as to the neighbor in question?
>
> >Sub-nova level flares?  At a parsec, doubt its much more dangerous than a
> heavy
> >solar storm.
>
> Correct with regard to the flare itself - they only toasted one side of
> Darrain. However, it's the EMP effect that devastated Darrian's colonies
> for a distance of 3 to 5 hexes in every direction. Even though they had a
> "shut-down" day while the wavefront passed each colony system, not
> everything survived.
>
> These days, all Darrain equipment is shielded to prevent such a thing
> happening again, so the Darrains are probably not so worried. ;-)
>
> However, the idea of a total war against Darrian if they ever USED the Star
> Trigger is reasonable. The Trigger should be viewed the same way that nukes
> are viewed today - something you Do Not use. If you are directly invaded,
> however, things may change - would the US start using neotron bombs if the
> mainland was invaded? That was NATO's basis of operations against the
> Soviets for many years.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
> of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
> position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 01:39:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (7/4/99)

>    http://www.titangames.com/
...
>        Traveller Chronicle:
>            5[$12, NM],
...
>    Game Designer's Workshop:
>        (Traveller)
>            Adv. 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station (339) [$11, VF]
>            Adv. 13 - Signal GK (341) [$14, NM]
...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:05:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Twitchy Equipment

> Aside from the above example, how would such mechanical problems
>be represented? Some are going to be simple "not up to spec" problems,
>which get designed the normal way. Others could be purpose-built
>by the architect. Another poster on this subject mentioned "hot" hardware
>that makes sacrifices in the long term for short-term gain. This could be
>represented (in MT, TNE, and T4) during design by using a component
>from one TL ahead, or that has some characteristic of the next TL, in
>exchange for problems. TNEs Wear Value mechanic works for some
>cases, as some hardware will be generally touchy from word one, while
>other cases are going to be specific.

Wear value works fine in MANY cases, as does the related maintenance hours
requirement being reduced (much like the old Type S had with it's air
system).

Another case might be "Hot M-Drives", using the MT T-plates, assuming you
are using the rules from DGP's Starship Operator's Manual... Under said
rules, for short periods, a ship can generate up to 400% thrust! At least
for short periods. On a large craft, shave some 1% off the size of the
drive (1% of drive size, not 12% of ship vol), increase the maintenance
hours, and save massive ammounts of tonnage on large ships.

Jump drives, of course, might have increased misjump chances and/or severity.

Under MT, make mishaps 1d more on the mishap table, or maybe +1 or +2 on
the mishap table. This works for anything which requires a skill roll.

Require a roll to avoid long term effects on anything with hazardous
exhausts, radiation leaks, or similar problems.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:05:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: TML vs XML

>>
>>Now begins again the Great TML Discussion of How Many Lists Are We?
>>When GDW produced TNE, the TML, after much discussion, split into the
>>TML (for TNE discussions) and X-Boat List (for CT and MT).  I hope we
>>don't go down that path again.
>>
>>--Glenn
>
>Actually, the TML stayed as an "all Traveller" list, and those who hated
>TNE so much that they didn't want to hear about it moved over.

Not ENTIRELY true...  I mistakenly crossposted to the TML something aimed
for X-boat, and got highly flamed... This was about 4 years ago... Because
XBoat was aimed at CT/MT, many of the TNE'ers strongly encouraged CT/MT
material be restricted there. As much by off-list flame-mail as on-list.

I miss the much more "on-topic" nature of the X-boat list. It took nearly 6
months after the reunion for the TNE prejudice to work itself out.... since
there was a hot "rules-fix" debate for MT going on at the time (which I was
participating in)...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Marines

>IMTU, the Imperial armed forces have two arms: the Navy and the Marines.
>The Navy fly the ships; the Marines are the troops who are sent out.
>"Army" is used only to refer to planetary ground forces that belong to
>a specific planet's own armed forces, rather than to the Imperium.
>
>(In fact, this was my understanding about how the Imperial armed forces
>were organized for quite a long time. (I started playing Traveller in
>1981.))
>
Pretty much the same with me, playing since 84. COACC cleared up much of
this for me... according to which, the 3I reserves the right to call up
units from worlds, put them under a joint command, and use them as ground
troops to back up the marines. The Imperial Army, according to COACC,
exists only as Subsector and higher commands, at least as a single force;
below that, it is the local world or group's army, which just might be
called up in whole or part into imperial duty.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:20:38 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Ships Designs

At 16:15 03/07/1999 -0300, Michel R. Vaillancourt wrote:

>        Anyone else intentionally design a lemon?

have a look at:

http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/background.html

The noted deficiencies of the Pioneer Ecks are at the bottom and take
more space than the features!

My players are probably happy to know that they are flying a one-off
prototype and extensive changes will be made in the final version.

If they get back, they might even have useful feedback for the improved
design.

I did actually fix one of the design bugs by adding extra lift shafts
to the deck plans - the original design only had one lift (on a 5kt ship).

An inventive player discovered the "...structural integrity of the ship is
marginal compared to its performance" feature.

One day they might regret the "...required performance could only be met
by eliminating most of the component armour" feature, but they've already
suffered from the misjump at J-3 feature, and the fact that the only
way to turn off the main laser is to disconnect it from the power grid
and overhaul it.

One feature not mentioned is that when they left, the hangar bay had
neither a heavy fighter, nor a cargo shuttle. Instead, there was
just a bunch of luxury grav cars.

The deck and a half of swimming pool is just the noble's accomodation,
its inclusion wasn't even a design flaw (IMO).

Did someone mention Paranoia R&D?

:-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:05:05 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Upper Sizes of Ships

At 19:39 03/07/1999 -0400, Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>The handwave my old GM used to limit ship sizes was the gravity field
>generated by thier mass.  I wanted to design a teraton-sized ship and he
>told me if I tried to launch my fighters they'd go "BLAT!" on the side
>of the ship as soon as they left the launch tubes due to the gravity
>field generated by the ship's mass.
>
>Just how on the mark is this reasoning?  Is it bunk, or as size
>increases, do we get problems with passive grav fields due to
>mass/density?

Well, if it was the same size as the Earth, I'd guess at 1G on the
surface. Otherwise, less.

The average density of a starship is lower than that of the Earth
(it's all them gaps for people to walk through).

force = GmM/r^2

      = Gm((4/3)*pi*r^3*density)/r^2

thus force is proportional to r (since the other terms are constant
for a given design).

So no ship smaller than Earth can have a gravity (surface or internal)
that would affect a fighter with a 6G drive.

So the reasoning is bunk in most TUs. Except your old GM's TU (of course).

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:16:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Star Trigger Threat?

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Doesn't matter. EMP is subject to the inverse square law too. A parsec
is something over 200,000 AU. 

The planet was 1 AU away. That means that at 1 parsec the effects would
be 40 *billion* times weaker. At 2 parsecs they'd be 160 billion times
weaker. At 3 parsecs they'd be 360 billion times weaker.
>>>>>>>>>>>
A possibility: the Maghiz effect was actually present in and propagated
through one (or more) levels of jump space, portions of the energy
precipitated out in nearby stellar gravity wells.

Doesn't explain why the effect took so long to get between planets,
unless some particular realspace signature from Darrian's primary
(which *did* travel at lightspeed) acted, even at a miniscule level,
as the catalyst which allowed the Maghiz effect to precipitate out
of jump space.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:20:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Upper Sizes of Ships

In mail you write:

> The handwave my old GM used to limit ship sizes was the gravity field
> generated by thier mass.  I wanted to design a teraton-sized ship and he
> told me if I tried to launch my fighters they'd go "BLAT!" on the side
> of the ship as soon as they left the launch tubes due to the gravity
> field generated by the ship's mass.
>
> Just how on the mark is this reasoning?  Is it bunk, or as size
> increases, do we get problems with passive grav fields due to
> mass/density?

You will, but not *that* soon. 

A=GM/R^2
    6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant "G"

Let's set A = to 1 g (10 m/s^2). And M equal to one teraton (1e12 tons,
1e15 kg).

10=6.673e-11*1e15/R^2
10*R^2=6.673e-11 * 1e15
r^2=6.673e-11 * 1e15 * 10
r^2 = 6.673e5
r=~817

So *if* your teraton ship has a radius of only 817 meters, then it'll
have a surface gravity of 1 g. I don't think you need to worry about
*that*. 

The *real* killer on large ships is that a ship that is twice as big
masses *8* times as much, but only has *4 times as much cross-sectional
area on the load bearing members. This is assuming you just multiplied
all the dimensions by a factor of 2. 

So, obviously, you need to make the load bearing members thicker. but
as you do that, *their* mass increases. Thus requiring that they be
even thicker *yet*.

Eventually you hit the point where the load bearing members aren't
strong enough to support their own weight under even minimal
acceleration forces or turning stresses. Which means they can't support
the weight of things like decks, equipment, etc. 

So the real limit is somewhat less than that. But there's *always* a
limit, and it's set by the strength of materials. And there's a finite
limit to how strong *any* material can be. It has to do with the
strength of bonds between atoms. As I recall, buckytubes are thought to
be rather close to that limit. And *they* aren't *that* much stronger
than current materials. *Maybe* 10-20 times.

The only way past *those* limits is to crank up the bogon generator and
use something like Star Trek's "structural integrity fields". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:25:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat? (Was: Imperial Marines)

In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:

> Hey, how do you crunch such large numbers?  my hand held calculator
> poops out after 8 or 9 digits..

Some of us have scientific calculators. They use scientific notation
when the numbers get too big. My trusty old TI-35 Plus can handle:

+/-9.9999999999e+/-99

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #816
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 817



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dirigible Combat
Re: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)
Re: Parthenogenesis
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
Re: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: KP with Battle dress (longish)
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
Traveller: play environment more than a rules system
RE: Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws and some organ physiology
Re: Hexagons
DSR NOE and FC?
RE: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:29:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dirigible Combat

In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:

>>Again, *because* they have to be *very* light, the structures of a
>>dirigible just *can't* take all that much extra stress.
>
> I'm not a materials engineer, but it seems to me that modern materials would
> make this less of a problem. Wouldn't thinks like graphite and plastics be
> much stronger and lighter than anything available in the 1920's or 1930's? I
> expect that GTL-10 materials would be able to solve these structural
> problems.

Modern materials *help*. But we are actually getting a lot closer than
most folks realize to the *ultimate* limits on materials strength.
Those limits are set by the max possible strength of bonds between
atoms. The limit is fairly close the the strength of bucky-tubes. And
buckytubes are no more than 10-50 times stronger than carbon fiber,
which we already have. 

Remember, storms generate stresses that can rip *heavier* than air
aircraft apart. A large dirigible is damned *twice* by the square-cube
law. Not only is it having to keep mass down, but it's got this *huge*
surface area. The low mass means the load-bearing members *have* to be
relatively weak. The large surface area means more stresses from wind
forces than a smaller vehicle would be subjected to.

*Small* blimps and dirigibles can have limited usefulness. But things
the size of the Hindenburg, or the Akron just plain aren't safe in
Terran weather.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:39:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Upper Sizes of Ships

In mail you write:

> While doing a TNE version of the 75,000 dt Regal class battlecruiser I ran
> into the surface area problem. In order to get everything to fit I had to
> give the ship a hybrid needle/wedge configuration with an airframe. The
> sight of one of these screaming through an atmosphere would be a novel, and
> rather terrifying way of "showing the flag"

It's actually realistic. You should *see* some of the dodges required
to dispose of waste heat in proposed fusion and antimatter powered
designs. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:40:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:25:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>>Actually, we've found that the *biggest* habitat is inside the crust!
>>The single-celled organisms in deep rock may well outmass the rest of
>>the biosphere.:-)
>
> You should underline "may" a few times.  This claim is very speculative.

From what I've read, they've *definitely* established that the
chemosynthetic organisms are all thru the crust, anyplace there's a
crack. So the calculations that say they may outmass the rest of the
organisms on earth aren't that far-fetched. For them *not* to, you'd
have to make some unlikely assumptions unless I mis-remember the
articles.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:43:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> (in response to a post by Ian Ferguson) 
>> Exoskeltons, maybe. For tracheal resipiration, I want some hard
>> figures. 
>
> O.K.
> If you are referring to creatures that breathe through a 'windpipe',
> inflating lungs which serve the purpose of gas exchange with the
> bloodstream, some numbers to think about are :-

Nope. We were talking about "insect-like" organisms, that have
exoskeletons and "breathe" through a nework of tubules with most of the
work of moving the air being done be diffusion, with some assist from
body movements.

> iii. The amount of energy it takes to breathe (in man, about 5% of
> resting metabolism is work of breathing) which is a function of lung and
> chest wall compliance. Lung and chest wall compliance is about 200mL per
> cm water distending pressure in man (overall 100mL per cm H2O for the
> system, compliances adding in parallel).
>         Peak inspiratory pressure is 30-35 cm water.
>         [E.g. consider that whales must rely significantly on the weight of
> their bodies being neutralised by water - beached whales die usually of
> respiratory failure ; or the cases of people with end-stage emphysema or
> in hypermetabolic states e.g. sepsis often require more oxygen to work
> their respiratory muscles than they can actually inhale, etc.]

I'm an asthmatic *and* a snorkeler. I've been all too aware of the
effort it took to breathe during a few attacks (it is a *scary*
sensation to have first had to start *conciously* breathing, and then
after a while, feel your chest muscles getting tired!).

And while snorkeling, it is quite amazing the difference in effort
required between holding your body parallel to the water surface and
only slightly under it (so you are fighting 6-8 inches of water
pressure) and letting yourself hang vertically (which has you fighting
close to 3 *feet* of water pressure).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:50:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> A friend had the *original* model (something or other "Lief Ericson")
>> back in the mid 60s. I picked up the glow in the dark version in the
>> 70s. I seriously doubt that production of the "UFO something or other"
>> *or* the "Lief Ericson" were less than multiple *thousands*. You
>> literally can't afford to fire up the injection molding machine that
>> produces the pieces for a run of less than 10,000 or so.
>> 
>> I still have my glow in the dark one. And it *ain't* for sale!
>
> Actually I think it was Larry Niven himself in a publication who made
> the claim there were 200 ever made.  Perhaps he was referring to the
> originals?

The originals and the re-release used the *same* molds. They just used
the silly glow in the dark plastic instead of the normal opaque white
styrene most models use.

I suspect that Niven may have been referring to some sort of
modification of the kit done in accordance with Pournelle's comments in
the article so as to produce a *true* model of the MacArthur. Or maybe
even something like the expoxy based "kits" you see at some cons (you
can buy "kits" of things like the martian "manta" craft from George
Pal's "War of the Worlds"). These "kits" *aren't* injectionmolded
plastic. The piece are usually cast resin. And because the of the
limited runs and the work in making the molds, they cost like sin.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:55:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany (longish)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote :-
>> Actually *oxygen* is almost as reactive as fluorine. Thus things like
>> forest fires. The big drawback with flurine as an oxidant is figuring
>> out how the plants can get enough energy to produce free fluorine!
>
> Yep, local oxygen fractions of 26-28% (vs. basal 21%) are all that are
> required to start a forest fire, even in *wet* vegetation. I don't think
> fluorine synthesis by biological systems is possible or plausible for
> the reason you mentioned - it's too damned expensive!

I seem to recall that it's more a matter of "partial pressure" rather
than percentage. So, for example, a world with 6 psi O2 partial
pressure out of, say 60 psi *total*, would only have 10% O2 but be a
*major* fire hazard. It'd definitely be toxic to humans in short order!

>> Alas, it's not stable under those conditions. If there's that much HF
>> around, there *won't* be more than traces of CO2 in the atmosphere.
>
> Doh! I was trying to make some sense out of the entry in BtC. We need to
> find a gas with a high critical pressure/temperature that will lead to
> the required greenhouse effect to reconcile the high average surface
> temperature and the requirement for oceans of hydrogen fluoride. Or we
> scrap one of the latter parameters.

Well, HF or some other fluorine compound may *be* a good greenhouse
gas. I don't know. And I'm not sure that any of my reference books
would say.

I'll have to try digging my way through Fogg's book on terraforming and
see if it says anything useful.

>> Since the rock would be a *lot* more porous (due to the HF) I can see
>> life going a lot farther in the deep crust.

> So can I, and this is possibly where the Vili actually live. As I have
> said above, I'm trying to make sense of this world from the G:T version
> of the Spinward Marches.

>> Hey! That's it! How about an ecology on something like Io that's based
>> on using all that free sulfur?
>
> Yes, the most likely metabolic pathway for energy production would
> involve sulphur -> hydrogen sulphide. 'Photosynthesis' would be the
> reverse of this. Earthly thiobacteria use this trick to survive in deep
> in hot springs, for example. 

> Thanks Leonard for your other comments and suggestions and the repost of
> the biomes list.

Hey, I figure it'd be nice to invent a few "new" biomes.

Oh yeah, I advise that folks read David Gerrold's "Warr Against the
Chtorr" series. It's got the *only* real extended consideration of what
happens when you start mixing organisms for ecologies of *vastly*
different ages. 

In this case, it's terran eco-systems against organisms from somewhere
else (we never find out where, at least not so far). The invading
organisms are estimated to have something like a billion year (?)
advantage over us. 

The results are much like seeding crab grass in a normal lawn and *not*
having any selective weedkiller available. Or, in other words, much
like the sort of things that happened in places like Australia when
non-native plants and animals got released. 

In short, the natives are in *big* trouble. 

I expect to see this sort of thing happen on planets that are colonized
and reasonably earthlike. In some cases, things will be an even match.
So some introduced terran species will die out rapidly. And some will
run wild, driving out the native species in the same niche.

On worlds where the match *isn't* so even, you'll either see the terran
species run wild, essentially destroying the native ecosystems (hope
the colonists have enough variety of species to come up with a viable
ecology). Or the reverse will happen. Terran organisms will be almost
impossible to keep going. Including people. 

There's a lovely reason for a red zone. A native ecology that can eat
your typical terran ecology for lunch. All it'd take is a few careless
explorers accidentally bringing home something like, say, "super kudzu".
Once they manage to get the mess on the "infected" planet(s) under
control, folks will put up a *very* tight quarantine around the place.

Add in some valuable resource. Maybe mineral. Or maybe you can extract
some wonder drug (or a narcotic) from the plant or a related one. So
folks keep trying to break the quarantine, in spite of the very serious
men with "shoot on sight" orders.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:13:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Parthenogenesis

In mail you write:

>>>Reptile genders are known not to be XY/XX state dependent. Several species
>>>are thermally triggered between male and female.
>>
>> Other species depend on chemical concentrations: one sex releases a
>> chemical that causes all hatchlings to develop as members of the other sex
>> (unless the level is low, in which case you get a mixture of sexes). IIRC,
>> some of these species have an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism, too
>> (female 200kg, male 20g, that kind of thing).
>>
>> I'm trying to dig out the references now...
>>
> Isn't it true that in insect colonies, the queen bee or queen ant must apply
> a special enzyme to all the larvae in order to make them into neuter (though
> all-female) 'workers/soldiers'?  And that if this enzyme is not present, the
> larva will automatically become a new queen?  (Insuring the survival of the
> colony if the queen dies and cannot administer the enzyme.)
>
> Of course, a different chemical would be used on a small percentage of the
> larvae to make them male drones, IIRC.

Actually, at any given time, there are several eggs in cells packed
with "royal jelly". When they hatch, if there is a queen, they leave
the nest (or get killed). If there isn't a queen, they fight and the
strongest one becomes the new queen.

An odd case is the mammal known as the naked mole rat.

They have a "queen" of sorts. She gives off some pheromone that
prevents any other females in the burrow complex from maturing
sexually. If something happens to her, the immature females start to
mature, and the first one to hit sexual maturity becomes the new
"queen". The others git hit be her pheromones and slip back into
immaturity.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:56:48 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

In a message dated 7/4/99 10:01:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
goldendj@pcisys.net writes:

<< 	PLEASE don't start a separate GT list ... the TNE/CT schism was bad
 enough, and the X-Boat list is now gone and dead. I own absolutely 0
 (zero, nought, nothing) from GURPS, but I still cherish the
 additional viewpoints. And so much Traveller stuff is fairly
 rule/milieu neutral. >>

Amen! I referee Classic Traveller, T4, and Gurps Traveller depending on which 
group is playing on the weekend. I can use all the information that is posted 
on this mailing list. 

I have been using the mailing list for a short time and have been struck by 
the apparent disproportional use of Classic Traveller over the later 
versions. I have seen reference to other mailing lists, particularly for 
Traveller: New Era. To be honest, I am surprised by the fact that Classic 
Traveller appears to remain the foundation or version of choice by the users 
of this mailing list. I realize the Traveller referees are notorious for 
picking and choosing what rule from each version applies to their campaign. 
Personally I used the character creation and vehicle construction rules from 
MegaTraveller, the world building and ship building rules from Classic 
Traveller. I dabbled in using the T4 rules for combat and character 
generation for a short time when it first came out. 

I am curious -- Is Classic Traveller still the primary version of rules 
enjoyed by referees on this list (even after all these years)?  Due to the 
level of Classic Traveller, especially High Guard, being featured in most 
discussions on this list, I dug out my very complete set of the little black 
books and accompanying supplements and adventures. I luxuriated in the 
reminiscing that we baby-boomers tend to do, remembering my "Golden Era" of 
gaming. From 1977 to 1987 I Classic Traveller was the only game of choice for 
me. During those years I was first a sailor deployed at sea for very long 
periods of time on patrol, then for a very short time a college student, then 
a soldier in the mech infantry in Europe. Classic Traveller was a fantasy 
environment that allowed for the inclusion of elements from the reality that 
my players and I really experienced. For short times our submarine took on 
the reality of being a ship in jump space taking us to our next destination, 
or our experiences in the German countryside became common reference points 
for the war against insurgents on Efate....

Opening that reverantly packed away little black GDW box brought back a lot 
of excellent memories. And I realized the simplicity and technical 
thoroughness of those original rules were in fact quite special. They had 
sustained countless hours of role-playing covering just as countless varied 
encounter situations without failure for a decade before the "improvements" 
came. I am now enjoying my Classic Traveller books one more time. 

But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of 
this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and 
relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
explanations for your reasoning. 


Thank you,
An Old Traveller. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 10:09:49 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Upper Sizes of Ships

Thanks for all the answers I got.  I figured one of you gearhead types
would have the precise answers I needed.  It certainly does make me feel
the sorry lack of mathematics education in my life though..
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:22:15 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: KP with Battle dress (longish)

- ----------
> From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: KP with Battle dress (longish)
> Date: Sunday, 04 July, 1999 11:58 PM
> 
> Lets look at a hostile takeover by Marines of a high tech world with good
> infrastucture. Then look at the logistics behind it. And remember , this
is
> TL15 (GTL12).
> 
[snip excellent descriptions]
> 
> So, in the first three stages, we see that the third step require
transport
> to supply forward elements, but all elements need logistical support.
Since
> Loren has said that all Marines have BD and FMPG's, and cannon states
that
> the marines do not have instringic vehicals, how can we do this?

According to both the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide and Star Mercs, a Marine
squad is normally mounted in an APC, so they do have vehicles to recharge
power supplies.  (they can't agree on what that APC is, but that's another
question).  

In an planetary assault, I would assume that about a third of the Marines
land by meteoric assault, without their vehicles.  The rest would arrive by
landing craft with their APCs plus attached tanks and meson artillery.  The
second or third wave of landing craft would carry the APCs for the meteoric
assault element, along headquarters company support units (maintenance,
supply, etc.).  This force needs only food and water and possibly some
ammunition depending on what generation of Traveller you're using and how
your Marines are equipped.  It should be self-sustaining foe close to a
week, including a couple of days of intense combat.

IMTU, I give the Marines more projectile artillery: Drone missiles at the
platoon level for recon/strike, and MRL launchers in the company for
suppression.  These are probably the main consumers of logistics.  I also
have my Marines using heavy gauss rifles and GLs, with FGMPs only as fire
team support weapons.  This also increase logistics demands, but gives them
a lot more flexibility.  With a gauss rifle you can take out a sniper
without setting the building he's in on fire.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 10:36:57 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

> 
> But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of 
> this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and 
> relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
> explanations for your reasoning. 
> 

I GM exclusively, Classic Traveller.  I do have nearly all of the
Megatraveller stuff as well, but mainly use that to supplement my
games.  Traveller was the first sci-fi in space game I was ever
introduced to and I have far too many 'golden' memories of the old
gaming sessions we used to have to want to go to something different. 
Its like in Gamma World, the very first RPG I was introduced to, I still
play version 1 whereas there are 5 versions of it.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:34:57 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Traveller: play environment more than a rules system

I would like to insert my two-cents in a looming discussion line. I have 
refereed and played various forms of TRAVELLER for over 20 years. I am 
dedicated to the belief that TRAVELLER transcended being "just" a rules 
system into a more general science fiction play setting years ago. It is my 
belief that the various rules systems are simply means in which to interpret 
interaction in an environment we have "ALL" helped to build and sustain over 
the years. I welcome GURPS TRAVELLER because it brings new ideas and new 
dimensions to an already exciting universe. I applaud the work Loren Wisemen 
and the GURPS staff is doing to shore-up and expand the TRAVELLER universe 
for all our benefits. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 10:54:58 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"There must be some benefits from specialisation e.g. easier 
to maintain a certain environment (temperature, acidity, solute
concentration) and the ability to better make use of available 
resources (e.g. a tree vs. a blue-green alga or cyanobacterium)."
<snipped>

	One very important consideration in terrestrial systems
	is access to light. Building structural parts that cannot
	photosynthesize (chlorophyl is 'expensive' to make) allows
	a plant to catch light before it reaches its neighbours. 
	This sort of competition is a good reason to be 
	multicellular, but there are others. Avoiding predators, 
	catching prey, tissue efficiency, adaptation to hostile
	environments all come to mind.

	Another great post, keep it coming!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 15:50:50 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

An Old Traveller wanted to know:

>But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of 
>this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and 
>relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
>explanations for your reasoning. 

If I want to design something for Traveller, I use the T4 rules - I like
the clarity and summary formulae given the the people who wrote the errata.

For play, I use the T4.x rules (actually my own variation). this because
T4 sort of has the right feel and with Marc's T5 beta rules on disk,
these are the easiest version to hack into my own set.

Plus I like M0 as a setting - I can boldly go where everyone has gone
before - and get there first.

A lot of the GT stuff looks like the sort of things people would
have written for T4 if they had thought someone would (a) pay them
and (b) not add lots of errors. So I'm buying them for background.

The MT and TNE periods were when material was being published stating
how people thought things worked so I keep source books and Challenge
from that period for technical background.

CT is the Traveller "reality check", since things were so much simpler
back then. A quick swop to CT stats can show if something looks reasonable.

Finally, if trying to make my point on the TML, when physics fails,
then I'll misquote from whatever version of Traveller comes to hand.

I find CT misquotes are considered the most authoritative.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:12:16 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws and some organ physiology

Robert O'Connor writes:
"iii. Renal
The internal environment of an organism tends to remain stable 
despite changes in nutrient flows, etc.
In terrestrial life, the kidneys act primarily to regulate body 
fluid composition and blood pressure, as a second level of 
control on acid-base balance (carbon dioxide elimination from the 
lungs is the primary controller), and eliminate nitrogenous (urea 
is one of the waste products of protein breakdown) and other non-
volatile wastes."

	Don't forget the important CO2 and pH regulating functions
	of the lungs. A general rule might be that the functions of
	organs are not always organized the way an MBA might do it.
	Thus, the lungs play a role in respiration and regulating
	the acidity of the blood not because these go together in a
	logical way, but because CO2 levels and pH are functionally 
	related in the blood. An alien organ might serve a 
	combination of functions that seems, at first glance, 
	illogical.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:37:55 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

>
> You've never worked with large databases, have you? That sort of
> "non-unique key" is a problem *because* it *will* tend to get data that
> should be together filed under different keys.

In other words, some bean counter tried to save a little computer memory.
Gap-space in a cannon stack would be limited to 4 possible spheres.  So from the
perspective of the person looking it up, it really doesn't take too much extra
effort to make sure which object you're refering too. Not that many objects appear
in gap space... its almost as if somebody intentionally spaced stars in the center
of hexes :)

From the database programmer's point of view, its as simple as creating a lookup
table that points to the appropriate file.  Rare gap-space objects would have
multiple lookups that point to the same file. So, what's that? an extra 200 bytes
per gap-space object pointing to a gigabyte information file?

Since objects are rarely named after their arbitrarily designated location, a
lookup will usually use the target's name and not the location.  Location searches
would probably involve pointing at some point in space and catching all database
events within one parsec (usually producing many hits) or even larger like a
subsector or sector search.

>
>
> You see, you use the "index" (the co-ordinate) as the key to *find*
> info. And to link info. Thus, if as occasionally happens, a house on a
> corner gets an address on *both* streets real estate and tax records
> get horribly mangled. For example, you could run a title check on "1234
> S 5th Street" and find no liens against the propert and no easements.

Anybody foolish enough not to check both possibilities deserves what they get.
What?  they never dealt with the government before?

>
> *That* is the problem with multiple "addresses" that refer to the same
> place. Things *won't* be filed under both. Just one or the other. Which
> leads to nasty surprises.

That's a bean counting produced problem.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:19:52 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <1141-504@onlinehome.de>
Subject: DSR NOE and FC?

What modifier ist flying NOE and/or TF?

is it "atmosphere of xx"

or

plus "same hex as planet"

or plus "landed"

or plus "landed and camouflaged"

....

What modifiers do I get for underwater?

- -----

If I'm getting a fire control on what ever, and it is in effectivy range of my weapons. Do get an hit with beam weapons 
automatically?

Thank in advance
Jens Maskus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:13:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"In practical terms, the following flags suggest themselves :-
1. Habitat :- aquatic, amphibious, land, aerial, triphibian

	These are the traditional divisions but, more generally,
	we might consider organisms living in the following
	habitats:
		mud (bacteria or worms in the lake's bottom)
		liquid (algae, snails, crayfish, fish)
		soil (earthworms, fungi)
		gas (deer, bats, bryophytes)
		mud/liquid (sea-weed, clams)
		soil/gas (trees, gophers)
		liquid/gas (whales, waterstriders, ducks)
		liquid/gas/soil (beaver)
	Just a thought: is it possible to have a gaseous 'sea?'
	Picture a planet with a liquid ocean, a heavy atmosphere at
	low elevations, and a distinct lighter atmosphere above a
	certain elevation. Comments?

"2. Neuraxis :- vertebrates and invertebrates have only one spinal 
cord or central set of ganglia. Multiple brains are unlikely, but 
multiple cords are not."

	Of course, nerve cords do not have to be dorsal (down the
	back).

"3. Endo or exo-skeleton :- structural support and fulcra to 
anchor muscles and tendons to.
	The upper bound for size for exoskeletons (in one g with 
carbon compounds) appears to belong to an extinct arthropod whose 
remains were recently excavated in Europe. Picture a centipede 2m 
long and about 0.5m in diameter! [The largest living arthropods, 
spider crabs, have bodies 0.5m in diameter and a leg span of up to 
1.5m]."

	Your honour, I object!! If we had not found evidence of
	arthropods larger than those alive today, we would tend to
	come to the conclusion that the largest ones alive represent 
	the upper limit to arthropod size. This logic is obviously
	flawed because we have found evidence of organisms such as 
	the centipede-like critter you describe. I have no doubt 
	that an exoskeleton becomes less efficient as size increases,
	but we do not know what the upper limit would be here on Terra
	if there were, for example, no vertebrates to compete with.

<snipped>
"Gahhh... I've run out of steam.
What next? (Polite suggestions, please!)"

	How about tissues, the missing link between cells and organs.
	This is a subject difficult to cover in a simple fashion, but
	a brief consideration of contractile tissue (or alternative
	motion-producing tissue?), nervous tissue (could this work by 
	water pressure? actual electric current? pressure waves?), 
	structural tissue (can steel be laid down by cells?), etc.
	Some deffinite potential here for alien-ness, and a good
	area to keep in mind when limiting alien physiology.

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #817
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 818



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany
Re: Hexagons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:15:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
>> Ok, if the required level from the template is equivilent to BD-0 in
>> other versions, or can be reduced to the equivilent of BD-0 due to lack
>> of use or recertification, Then I remove my objections. (I do not yet
>> understand GURPS).
>>
>
>Does that mean that a PC that retains at least BD-1 has to fork out cash (I
>can't see free testing, someone has to pay for the equipment, time, and
>expendables?) to remain certified?  If not using it means not "retaining"
>the skills that weren't rolled, then retaining said skills require frequent
>testing and expense out of service??
>
>--  The Roc

Partly right, IMHO. The PC would have to fork out cash to remain
_certified_. If they didn't, they wouldn't necessarily lose the skill, but
they wouldn't have the paperwork to prove to a prospective employer that
they were still current.

It's like my CPR qualification. I still have the skills (albeit somewhat
rusty) but my qualification expired last year. If you collapse in front of
me I'll step in if no one else does, but I couldn't get a job that required
CPR certification.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:27:12 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Steven Hudson writes:
">	The hormonal Motie birth-control seems to have been a
>	relatively advanced science/tech achievement, since the 
>	whole problem was so difficult to fix. Thus, I got the 
>	impression that the birth-controlled populations were
>	loosing out much later than the transition from hunter-
>	gatherer to agrarian (Come to think of it, did Moties
..

  Oops, I appear to have distracted myself around the first 
line. How about: "Not individual wars, but an attritional 
series (which, given Motie generation times, wouldn't be a lot 
of years - depends on how much hardware they have to use, and 
their relative productive efficiencies). IIRC, they seem to be 
quite comfy with the idea of breeding right up to the ragged 
edge of their carryign capacity with Warriors and then count
not only on winning but of losing a bunch of the surplus in the 
war..."

	One recurring theme in the Motie conflicts seems to be the
	limiting resources. I would tend to think that a society's
	success would be limited by its resources rather than its
	population (the higher population may even reduce the
	resources available for crucial uses). Nevertheless, it is
	certainly true that an increased population does generally
	give a society an advantage in competition, but keep in
	mind that the Motie breeding system makes it impossible to
	breed "...right up to the ragged edge of their carryign 
	capacity with Warriors..." because that would imply a 
	higher rate of reproduction among warriers than other races.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:43:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 

> Steven Hudson writes:
> ">	The hormonal Motie birth-control seems to have been a
> >	relatively advanced science/tech achievement, since the 
> >	whole problem was so difficult to fix. Thus, I got the 
> >	impression that the birth-controlled populations were
> >	loosing out much later than the transition from hunter-
> >	gatherer to agrarian (Come to think of it, did Moties
> ...
> 
>   Oops, I appear to have distracted myself around the first 
> line. How about: "Not individual wars, but an attritional 
> series (which, given Motie generation times, wouldn't be a lot 
> of years - depends on how much hardware they have to use, and 
> their relative productive efficiencies). IIRC, they seem to be 
> quite comfy with the idea of breeding right up to the ragged 
> edge of their carryign capacity with Warriors and then count
> not only on winning but of losing a bunch of the surplus in the 
> war..."
> 
> 	One recurring theme in the Motie conflicts seems to be the
> 	limiting resources. I would tend to think that a society's
> 	success would be limited by its resources rather than its
> 	population (the higher population may even reduce the
> 	resources available for crucial uses). Nevertheless, it is
> 	certainly true that an increased population does generally
> 	give a society an advantage in competition, but keep in
> 	mind that the Motie breeding system makes it impossible to
> 	breed "...right up to the ragged edge of their carryign 
> 	capacity with Warriors..." because that would imply a 
> 	higher rate of reproduction among warriers than other races.


And then there's Crazy Eddie, the guy, who, when just enough materials is 
flowing into the city to maintain the population and it takes every hand 
working constantly to survive, leads the garbage collectors out on strike.

Poor Crazy Eddie.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:56:22 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
"> Yep. Even a "typical" tarantula has a body that's far bigger than any
> insect can have. And there are spiders with bodies even larger. The
> infamous "bird-eating" spider comes to mind.
>
>         "Far bigger?" A little digging on my part produced a weight of
>         about 4 oz for the largest known bird-eating spiders. The
>         goliath beetle (which can fly) is about 3.5 oz. The goliath
>         beetle is about 5" long, while the largest bird-eating
>         spiders have a leg span of about 13", and an extinct dragon-
>         fly had a wingspan of about 24". A large tarantla is not even 
>         larger than known insects, let alone comparing a "typical"
>         tarantula to possible insects that could be even bigger (If
>         a flying insect can be so big, requiring lightness and high
>         metabolic rate, then a relatively sedentary insect could 
>         probably be considerably bigger).

You are cheating. You are using weight, wingspan, and length. Those are
*not* interchangeable. And, as I said earlier, the limiting factor is
the maximum distance of an internal point from the surface of the body."

	If I may quote you specifically:
	"Even a "typical" tarantula has a body that's far bigger than 
	any insect can have."
	In just what sense did you mean "far bigger"? Not knowing, I
	compared a couple of different measures of body size, showing 
	with each that the largest spiders are not "far bigger" than 
	known 	insects, let alone the maximum size that "any insect 
	can have."

"Length is *definitely* not related to that. Neither is length of
weight. *Thickness* is. But only in a minimax sense, That is, the
critical factor is the maximum "minimum distance to the surface"."

	More specifically, it is distance to the site of O2 exchange.
	If we are considering a body that exchanges gases over its
	surface, then its size would be limited by the rate of 
	diffusion, the shape (your "thickness"), and the rate of gas
	use in the body (did I miss anything?). However, if gas is 
	exchanged through only one site (say, the book lungs), then
	the distance from the site of exchange to the most distant
	metabolically active site becomes the limiting factor. If,
	on the gripping hand, the organism has a system of tubes
	running through the body through which air is moved to some
	extent by body movements, then the situation is much more
	complex and a maximum size cannot be simply ascribed.

"Also, there's some debate as to what the partial presure of O2 was 
back when that dragonfly was around, If, as some suggest, it was 
higher, then the dragonfly likely couldn't survive under current conditions."

	No problem, an alien planet could have lower G, higher O2,
	no vertebrate competition, or any of a number of conditions
	which could favour the evolution of macroinvertebrates.

> "BTW, one of the big limits on exoskeletons is a combination of lack 
> of leverage as the limbs get larger, and problems with load bearing 
> at joints. There's just too much "stuff" going through the joints."
>
>         "A mechanical analysis, based on fundamental principals of 
>         mechanics, suggest that an exoskeleton is superior to an 
>         endoskeleton in regard to failure by buckling and bending. 
>         When it comes to forces of impact, however, ...the exoskeleton 
>         is at a disadvantage, particularly for large and active animals 
>         such as vertebrates."
>                 -Schmidt-Nielsen, 1984 (p. 53)

>         Once again, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages. 
>         Endoskeletons gain more advantages as body size increases.
>         We have not necessarily seen the upper limit on body size for
>         terrestrial organisms with an exoskeleton and/or tracheal
>         respiration.

Exoskeltons, maybe. For tracheal resipiration, I want some hard
figures. 

	Hard figures? What sort of "hard figures" would you like?
	As you have provided none, I'm not sure what your facination
	with "hard figures" is, but if you give me some idea of what
	it is that you want I will try to comply.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:07:18 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
> Leonard Erickson
> "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
> *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
> doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."
>
>         I see that another poster has addressed the sex determination
>         issue, so I will just make a point about what sexes are 
>         needed. Assuming that you are talking about parthenogenesis
>         (unfertilized eggs developing into adults), the males are
>         not required.

<sigh>

*Of course* the males aren't needed for parthogensis. That's the
*definition*. What I said had *nothing* to do with that. 

Might I trouble you to try a bit harder to write responses that
actually deal with the issues being discussed, rather than with some
*different* issue? 

I'm getting tired of having you continually "refute" points I never
made.

	Once again, I will point out the salient quote:

	"Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
	*female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the 
	mother doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."

		Now, exactly what was the nature of the "problem" that 
		you refer to here?

	"<sigh>"

		I am doing my best to avoid a condesending tone in this
		exchange, despite the fact that I am a profesional 
		biologist and you have betrayed a lack of understanding
		of certain key points. I respect that you do obviously
		know a great deal, and that you have much to offer the
		TML. I ask that you treat me with respect as well.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:10:27 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Nitrogen compounds have this slight problem. They tend to be unstanle
(except in a few configurations). Nitrogen-nitrogen bonds are one of
the more unstable configurations. 

There's a *reason* most explosives contain nitrogen!"

	"No, stop! don't swat that fly.." BANG!
	;-)

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 13:23:53 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"The largest dinosaurs probably represent the upper bound on 
size for terrestrial life. Bone is only so strong - it's only 
calcium salts after all!"

	Please forgive me for harping on this, but this is far 
	from sure. Not so long ago, it was suggested that the
	largest dinosaurs must have lived in the water, because
	they could not possible have supported their great bulks
	on land. It is now known that they were fully terrestrial.
	With the kind of bone that we have, and the conditions of
	Terra, it may well be that the dinosaurs were near or at 
	the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
	sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
	existed. Anyone know what they are called?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:31:24 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
>         the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
>         sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
>         existed. Anyone know what they are called?

Well, if you've seen some of my in-laws ...

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:39:59 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
	Please forgive me for harping on this, but this is far 
	from sure. Not so long ago, it was suggested that the
	largest dinosaurs must have lived in the water, because
	they could not possible have supported their great bulks
	on land. It is now known that they were fully terrestrial.
	With the kind of bone that we have, and the conditions of
	Terra, it may well be that the dinosaurs were near or at 
	the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
	sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
	existed. Anyone know what they are called?
>>>>>>>>>
I'll guess...trees?

I'm wondering about the calcium salts in terrestrial bone composition.
Even if the dinosaurs were at the terrestrial limit (1G+calcium-based
bones+cube-square law), what would the limit be like with a different
bone composition? Or is it more a matter of structural design details
than composition?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:31:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Nitrogen compounds have this slight problem. They tend to be unstanle
> (except in a few configurations). Nitrogen-nitrogen bonds are one of
> the more unstable configurations. 
>
> There's a *reason* most explosives contain nitrogen!"
>
>         "No, stop! don't swat that fly.." BANG!
>         ;-)

Most organisms use the safe combinations. They also avoid triple-bonded
carbon atoms (eg things like acetylene, calcium carbide, silver
acetylide, copper acetylide). 

Pentavalent nitrogen tends to turn back to trivalent nitrogen at the
most inconvenient times.

ps. I thought it was the "bees" you didn't swat? (obscure "Legacy of
Heorot" reference :-)


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:22:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor writes:
> <snipped>
> "The largest dinosaurs probably represent the upper bound on 
> size for terrestrial life. Bone is only so strong - it's only 
> calcium salts after all!"

Whoops! I missed the above the first time thru.

Bone is actually *stronger* than steel. It's a 2-phase compsite of
calcium phosphate(?) and collagen. Sort of like fiberglass or
graphite/epoxy composites. 

One of the *big* hassles with artifical joint replacements is that they
have to be the same size and shape as the original. And surgical steel
just isn't up to it. For example, there's a "spur" on one of the bones
of the elbow that acts as a "stop" to limit motion. This getting
damaged is what usually happens when a pitcher ruins his arm. The
replacements have this tendency to break or to "smush" if you try
anything like "normal" extremes of activity.

Hip joints are another nightmare.

Yes, Virginia, bone *is* stronger than steel. Find a hunk of steel rod
the size of one of the bones in your forearm. Find another the size of
the other. Grab them by the ends and bend. If you are reasonably
strong, the bars will bend. And the bones in your arms won't notice the
stress. 

>         Please forgive me for harping on this, but this is far 
>         from sure. Not so long ago, it was suggested that the
>         largest dinosaurs must have lived in the water, because
>         they could not possible have supported their great bulks
>         on land. It is now known that they were fully terrestrial.
>         With the kind of bone that we have, and the conditions of
>         Terra, it may well be that the dinosaurs were near or at 
>         the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
>         sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
>         existed. Anyone know what they are called?

Well, there are the redwoods. And then there are those multi-ton fungi
they discovered a few years back. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 16:48:06 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

In a message dated 7/2/99 7:31:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca writes:

<< 
   FWIW, we don't know enough about how Moties conduct small wars to
 guess; over-population is no real help in large/long wars.
  >>
In "The Gripping Hand" it's stated that the wariors are made to fight each 
other to keep there population down...
About the motie Birth control thing...All previous Motie attemps at b/c 
depended on the Masters volutarily using the Crazy Eddy drugs. The b/c method 
developed by the Empire was in bacterial or virus form and it was an airborn 
agent...This way the Moties might not nessessarily have to be co-operative 
aas far as taking it...(of course, the Empire thought that Mote Prime was 
still the main power in their system)...
Hoping you all had a cooler holiday than I did,
BobS, at 100f in NJ....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:01:13 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

The recent threads concerning the Imperial Marines, along with issues
relating to my ref's current campaign (which is based on my character's
command of an Imperial Army jump troop regiment), have led me to
contemplate crew-served weapons for jump troop and Marine units.  As I
see it, crew-served weapons for a meteoric assault unit (Marine, Army,
or other) would consist of one or more of the following:

1.  Heavy weapons that can be deployed in a single assault capsule. 
Equivalent to air-dropping Ma Deuce (the M2 Heavy Barrel caliber .50
machine gun, for the uninitiated).  This weapon is a bit too large to
fit into a capsule that also contains its gunner.  Its crew (probably a
two-man team [gunner and assistant gunner] links up with the weapon on
the ground, and operates it in support of platoon/company actions.

2.  Heavy weapons whose parts can be carried by its crew.  Equivalent to
air-dropping a light-to-medium mortar (60mm to 81mm) with its crew. 
Each crewbeing carries a piece of the weapon in his/her/its capsule,
along with a few rounds of ammunition (or power supplies).  The crew
links up dirtside, assembles the weapon, and operates it in support of
company actions.

3.  Heavy weapons whose parts can be dropped in multiple assault
capsules.  I can't think of any weapons systems that are air-dropped in
this manner (then again, I'm not combat arms).  Similar in concept to
Case #2 above, except that the crewbeings must track down the parts and
assemble them.  This type of weapon would probably be used at battalion
level, as part of a dedicated weapons company.

4.  Heavy weapons that can be dropped in outsize capsules.  Equivalent
to air-dropping a 105mm howitzer.  This class of weapon differs from
Case #1, in that it requires larger-than-standard drop capsules (or
ablative drop pallets).  It would generally be found in dedicated
batteries or battalions.  Ammunition or power supplies would also be
dropped in outsize capsules or ablative drop pallets.

5.  Light vehicles (unarmed).  Equivalent to air-dropping HMMWVs as
[exapmles are not all-inclusive] prime movers for light artillery, or
with SIGINT/EW modules on the back.  Depending on the size of the
vehicle in question, and the size of outsize capsules developed, these
would be delivered in either outsize capsules or ablative drop pallets. 
Alternatively, they could either ride down in landing craft or
self-deploy using their grav modules, time permitting.

6.  Light vehicles (armed).  Equivalent to air-dropping Avenger or
TOW-armed HMMWVs.  See Case #5 above for delivery.  These light armed
vehicles would most likely be found in dedicated weapons platoons or
companies/batteries.

I would welcome any suggestions concerning the following:

a.  What is the most effective weapon for each case discussed above?

b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?

c.  What is the largest feasible ablative drop pallet?

d.  How long should it take to assemble a weapon dropped in separate
pieces (Case #3)?  (Assume four pieces, each massing about 20 kg.  Do
not include the time it takes for the crewbeings to rendezvous with the
component parts.)


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:22:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> Leonard Erickson
>> "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
>> *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother 
>> doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."
>>
>>         I see that another poster has addressed the sex determination
>>         issue, so I will just make a point about what sexes are 
>>         needed. Assuming that you are talking about parthenogenesis
>>         (unfertilized eggs developing into adults), the males are
>>         not required.
>
> <sigh>
>
> *Of course* the males aren't needed for parthogensis. That's the
> *definition*. What I said had *nothing* to do with that. 
>
> Might I trouble you to try a bit harder to write responses that
> actually deal with the issues being discussed, rather than with some
> *different* issue? 
>
> I'm getting tired of having you continually "refute" points I never
> made.
>
>         Once again, I will point out the salient quote:
>
>         "Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce 
>         *female* offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the 
>         mother doesn't have any Y chromosomes)."
>
>                 Now, exactly what was the nature of the "problem" that 
>                 you refer to here?

Look back at your own quoted response. It dealt with "males aren't
needed FOR PARTHOGENSIS" (emphasis added). My comment, quoted above
dealt with parthogensis not being able to produce offspring with
chromosomes the mother didn't have! (ie being able to produce males). 
It turned out that reptiles don't have the XY/XX differentiation. I was
going from what I knew about mammals where, where parthogenesis can
*only* produce females.

So I was pointing out (incorrectly as it turned out) that parthogensis
*couldn't* be what was happening because the offspring were male. Not
that males were needed for parthogensis.

Like I said, different problems. 

So your reply, "correcting" something I had neither said, nor implied
was more than a little annoying.

I say A, your reply tends to be "but B is wrong". See the problem?
Like I said, you are refuting points I never made.

>         "<sigh>"
>
>                 I am doing my best to avoid a condesending tone in this
>                 exchange, despite the fact that I am a profesional 
>                 biologist and you have betrayed a lack of understanding
>                 of certain key points. I respect that you do obviously
>                 know a great deal, and that you have much to offer the
>                 TML. I ask that you treat me with respect as well.

Then give me the respect of actually looking at what I *said* and
replying to *that*, not to some side issue.

Above, we have me stating that "you can't get males via parthogenesis"
and you replying "parthogenesis doesn't require males". in our other
big "debate" I keep talking about the limits on exoskeletal creatures
that "breathe" via spiracles (or "trachea" as you started calling
them). You keep dragging in stuff like book lungs. Or I talk about
size without actually *specifying* "maximum 'minimum distance to
surface'" in that post though I'd been quite specific about it in
previous posts, and you go on about length, mass, and wingspan, none of
which relate to the sort of "size" I'd already established that we were
talking about.

I'd *love* to get better data on stuff from someone who knows. I'm
glad to have found out that the "female offspring only due to lack of Y
chromosome in mother" limit only applies to mammals, for instance.

I'm not an expert. Just someone who has read widely and is good at
retaining the gist of it, if not always the specific details. "Wide but
shallow" you might say. 

But I'm getting *really* tired of "corrections" that have little or
nothing to do with what I'm talking about. 

In short, respect *me* enough to make sure you understand the context
before replying. That includes not forcing me to repeat in great detail
things that were established in previous posts. 

As I said in the beginning on the "size of 'insects'" bit. My reading
says that there's a limit of about an inch for the distance to the
surface for spiracle based respiration. I'd welcome a better figure, or
even range of figures. 

But why should I have to keep repeating things like "maximum 'minimum
distance to surface'" when I've already stated (many times) that this
is what I meant by "size". Or go thru the "no, I'm *not* talking about
book lungs" bit every post when that *too* has been stated several
times. 

I am *not* writing journal articles. I'm carrying on a *casual*
discourse, and as such I have every right to expect the other
participants to rember what parameters were established in previous
*recent* messages. 

You could be a great resource. But not if I have to spell every single
detail out in every post. Like I said, *you* are responsible for
remembering the context established previously. That means remembering
how things were "defined" only a message or two back, and responding
based on *that*, not on assuming that the words are now being used
differently. 

If you can't, I'm going to have to figure out how to filter out your
posts, simply because there aren't enough hours in a day to
re-establish the context with every message. Nor is there any reason to
subject myself to a constant barrage of well-meaning but off-target
"corrections". I don't need the annoyance. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:52:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> I'm wondering about the calcium salts in terrestrial bone composition.
> Even if the dinosaurs were at the terrestrial limit (1G+calcium-based
> bones+cube-square law), what would the limit be like with a different
> bone composition? Or is it more a matter of structural design details
> than composition?

It is more design than composition. As in "crystal" composition, size,
shape and orientation are very important. But so is the collagen
("gristle") matrix the crystals reside in. 

Bone is a two-phase composite, just like fiberglass (glass fibers &
plastic resin) or graphite fiber composites (carbon "whiskers" and
plastics or even metals).

One phase provides the strength. That's the calcium salts, glass fiber
or carbon fiber. But those are all *brittle*. The other phase
(collagen, plastic, aluminum) provides the "toughness". 

Alas, the only "skeletal" materials terran life has come up with are
calcium salts (shell, bone, etc), "pure" collagen or cellulose
(sponges, trees) or silica. 

The only large organisms using a silica skeleton are "glass sponges".
Almost all the others are tiny diatoms. I'd guess that this is due to
silicon being so hard to handle biologically. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:07:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany

In mail you write:

>         How about tissues, the missing link between cells and organs.
>         This is a subject difficult to cover in a simple fashion, but
>         a brief consideration of contractile tissue (or alternative
>         motion-producing tissue?), nervous tissue (could this work by 
>         water pressure? actual electric current? pressure waves?), 
>         structural tissue (can steel be laid down by cells?), etc.
>         Some deffinite potential here for alien-ness, and a good
>         area to keep in mind when limiting alien physiology.

I seem to recall that on Epona (a world created by/for a writer or
writers a few years back, and featured in some stories in Analog) the
"muscle tissue was based on tissues that *expanded*. And "bones" were
combinations of "extensor" tissue and tension members. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:44:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hexagons

In mail you write:

>>
>> You've never worked with large databases, have you? That sort of
>> "non-unique key" is a problem *because* it *will* tend to get data that
>> should be together filed under different keys.
>
> In other words, some bean counter tried to save a little computer
> memory.  Gap-space in a cannon stack would be limited to 4 possible
> spheres.  So from the perspective of the person looking it up, it
> really doesn't take too much extra effort to make sure which object
> you're refering too. Not that many objects appear in gap space... its
> almost as if somebody intentionally spaced stars in the center of
> hexes :)

> From the database programmer's point of view, its as simple as
> creating a lookup table that points to the appropriate file.  Rare
> gap-space objects would have multiple lookups that point to the same
> file. So, what's that? an extra 200 bytes per gap-space object
> pointing to a gigabyte information file?

You're missing the point. It's not the *programmer* who creates the
problem. It's the *data entry* people. If an item has two "index
values" (which is a violation of database design right there!) some
clerk is going to file data under index value A and another is going to
file it under index value B. 

The "lookup table" you are talking about *is* the index. And my point
was that the index entries *have* to be unique. Otherwise you get data
that applies to the same place filed in two *different* places.

To put it another way, you've got two different "record numbers", which
means *by definition* that there are two seperate records.

> Since objects are rarely named after their arbitrarily designated
> location, a lookup will usually use the target's name and not the
> location.

Sorry, but names aren't useful as a primary key. If you do a search on
"Portland", you'll get at *least* a dozen different records. If you do
a search on "Leonard Erickson" you'll get *thousands* of hits. And we
know for a *fact* that world names *are* duplicated in the OTU. Heck, I
think there are even some duplicated *sub-sector* names. 

So what do you do when you get multiple records like this? You tell the
database retrieval software "I want the one at <location>." And if the
co-ordinate system allows for two different but valid sets of
co-ordinates for a world or system, then you'll only get the data filed
under the set of co-ordinates you entered. You *won't* get the data
filed under the *other* set of co-ordinates.

> Location searches would probably involve pointing at some point in
> space and catching all database events within one parsec (usually
> producing many hits) or even larger like a subsector or sector search.

The "within one parsec" bit *is* the sort of co-ordinate grid we are
talking about. You aren't going to run distance calculations on
zillions of records. You are going to point at a "box" (set of
co-ordinates) and retreive all the records associated with that
"address". 

Sometimes you'll miss something (like the house you didn't know was on
the other side of the street from the zip code boundary). But by having
*unique* addresses (co-ordinates, aka "hex numbers") you get to have a
quick, *simple* index. As soon as you allow gaps (areas with *no*
address) or overlaps (areas with multiple addresses) you've made data
storage and retreival sufficiently complicated that you *will* be told
to scrap your silly system and come up with something *usable*. 

>> You see, you use the "index" (the co-ordinate) as the key to *find*
>> info. And to link info. Thus, if as occasionally happens, a house on a
>> corner gets an address on *both* streets real estate and tax records
>> get horribly mangled. For example, you could run a title check on "1234
>> S 5th Street" and find no liens against the propert and no easements.
>
> Anybody foolish enough not to check both possibilities deserves what they 
> get. What?  they never dealt with the government before?

The point is that they don't necessarily *know* that there's more than
one possibility. This sort of thing is *why* the post office gets
involved with assigning house numbers. 

Likewise, with your setup, since objects bing in the "overlaps" would
be rare, people aren't going to realize that i's possible for there to
be two "addresses" for the same "place". 

>> *That* is the problem with multiple "addresses" that refer to the same
>> place. Things *won't* be filed under both. Just one or the other. Which
>> leads to nasty surprises.
>
> That's a bean counting produced problem.

No. It's not. You are confusing saving space with the *requirement*
that index values be unique. Why on earth do you suppose they assign
things like Social Security numbers or driver's license numbers? They
do it because they *need* a unique identifier to distinguish records
that may otherwise have non-unique "keys".

A few examples of what happens *without* such keys (from comp.risks):

An agency used name, city and date of birth to generate a "unique" key
for records. Sounds good, right? Until they discovered that there were
*two* John M. Smiths, born on the same day in the same (fairly large)
city. Oops.

The Post office files mail forwarding instructions by a combo of last
name and the address. Sounds good, right? Except that when I moved into
my apartment, things got messed up. You see, the previous tenant had
the same last name.

So, getting back to our "co-ordinate" question. 

Given that new systems have to be added easily, you need something that
*doesn't* use arbitrary numbers. Because that would require assigning
them from some central authority, or assigning ships "blocks" of
numbers to use for system IDs. And worse, it *is* possible for the same
system to get "discovered" by two different ships (if it's on the
border between their assigned search areas). Which would have it appear
to be *two* different worlds until someone analyzed the data carefully.

So, the best bet is to use location on some sort of grid. You assign
the system to whichever square or hex it is closest to the center of.
This gives each system a unique ID. In the (rare) cases where you wind
up with two stars in the same "box", and they *aren't* gravitationally
linked, you either fudge the box boundaries a bit (not recommended) or
you just treat them as a single system anyway, and stick a note about
them *not* being a binary in the system data. 

This gives unique keys, fast, easy filing and instant (rough) location
of an object from it's co-ordinates. If you need more exact location
data, that'll be in the data records you retrieve *using* the location
key. 

Basicly, if you've got gaps or overlaps in the "boxes" you're pretty
unclear on why we even *bother* to have "boxes". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #818
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 5 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 819



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

From the FarFuture Home page
Re: Star Trigger threat?
The Yahoo!/GeoCities Dispute
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
[www] 04 July 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Re: Dirigible Combat
Re: KP and Battledress
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Battledress
Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
re: Battledress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:34:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: From the FarFuture Home page

This comes up time and time again......

http://members.aol.com/SFRPG/T01d1.html

Far Future Enterprises Policy on use of
Traveller Role Playing Titles and Trademarks.

  There some questions about what we can allow and what we can't allow in
order to protect our trademarks and copyrights. Here are some answers to
FAQs (June 22, 1998).
  1. May I create my own, original works and put them on a web or ftp site
or share them with my friends?
  Yes, however the Copyright/Trademark holder, Far Future Enterprises
requires the following.
  a) You don't charge for it.
  b) You include the following site-wide disclaimer in the text of a story
or article, on a web site, or in the about box and/or splash screen of any
software:

  The Traveller game in all forms is owned by Far Future Enterprises.
Copyright 1977 - 1998 Far Future Enterprises. Traveller is a registered
trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Far Future permits web sites and
fanzines for this game, provided it contains this notice, that Far Future
is notified, and subject to a withdrawal of permission on 90 days notice.
The contents of this site are for personal, non-commercial use only. Any
use of Far Future Enterprises's copyrighted material or trademarks anywhere
on this web site and its files should not be viewed as a challenge to those
copyrights or trademarks. In addition, any program/articles/file on this
site cannot be republished or distributed without the consent of the author
who contributed it.

  c) You notify Far Future Enterprises (it is sufficient to e-mail
FarFuture@AOL.com) saying "I have a Traveller Web site at this URL:
http://www.somehere.org/some.html" or other similar message.

  2) May I post the contents of a Challenge Magazine Article online or on a
web site?
  Yes, as long as you have the permission of the original author and our
disclaimer is present. The following message about this from our licensing
department:

  Far Future Enterprises will give permission to post Challenge articles on
Traveller to web sites provided the author of the article has also granted
permission. In observance of the magazine article's author's rights, we
cannot give permission without the author's permission. Regrettably, Far
Future Enterprises is not able to locate authors for you. The site must
carry the proper Far Future Enterprises copyright/trademark acknowledgment.
  If the article was authored by Marc Miller, you have his permission.

  3) May I rewrite the game in my own words, scan parts of the book, or
create any other derivative works.
  No. Our reasoning is this:
  If Far Future Enterprises does not establish standards for fair use, and
does not police any use that is made, then Far Future Enterprises runs the
risk of losing an enforceable ownership right. I can't use your car, even
if you aren't using it. I need your permission. I can look at it, admire
it, even write about it, but I can't take it or re-paint it without
permission. Intellectual property is a special case, but the idea is much
the same.
  You can write about the Traveller universe, and put it on your web
site... but you can't reproduce the rules (or re-writes of the rules, etc.)
except for about a page (because we give permission to do that, provided
you post the proper acknowledgment).
  Some publishers just say "You can't post anything." We are trying to have
a kinder, gentler approach. "Far Future Enterprises wants to be a player
friendly company. We understand that you love the game and want to see it
foster. We believe in supporting you the best way we can. Right now, we
encourage you to create your own original works and have them follow our
policies, which are the most fair in the industry.
  But you can't just go rewrite the books in your own words.

  4) What is considered Fair Use of your material?
  About a page at a time.
  The site must carry the proper Far Future Enterprises copyright/trademark
acknowledgment. For posting of text or material from printed books and
modules, Far Future Enterprises permits inclusion of some material and
mention of trademark names (Traveller, and other titles). Our permission
does not extend to wholesale or complete republication of our texts on-line
(for obvious reasons). Limit your republication of texts to short passages
(essentially a page or less of text). Our policy is to not be burdensome in
our requirements, while still protecting our ownership of the text to these
games. We appreciate game player support of our titles and we work to make
involvement in these games interesting and fun.
  This permission allows you to cite a portion of the book without copying
the entire book. For instance, for an adventure about the Spinward Marches
where you need to repeat a section about Regina, you could cull it from
various texts and reproduce it. You could use a quote or two, or if need be
extend that to about a page. However you cannot say "Here is page one of
the T4 book." "Here is page two of the T4 book.", etc.

  5) May I scan in a piece of artwork or a map for use?
  Some artwork is created by the artist under a "work for hire" contract
where the ownership of said art becomes the property of the publisher. Some
artwork is provided on a limited use contract, in particularly photographs.
If the artist created the works as work for hire for GDW (usually staff
artists at GDW), then Far Future Enterprises holds the rights to say "Yes"
or "No" to the question. If it was done by the artists on their own time,
in particular for photographs, it may have been done on a limited use base,
and that artist may own the copyright. So here is what we can allow:
  Artwork such as items, vehicles, charts, maps and logos were created for
GDW and we have the full rights to them. Atmosphere pieces, other
illustrations and cover art, you need permission from the artists. Far
Future Enterprises regrets that we cannot contact the artist for you. As a
special case, you may reproduce covers credited to Steve Venters.
  Far Future Enterprises will allow you to use those items which we have
the rights to, but in limited terms. You must include a Copyright for each
piece used similar to:

  This map is Copyright  1977 - 1998, Far Future Enterprises All Rights
Reserved. Licensed for individual use.

  You cannot scan entire sections of art in an attempt to reproduce a book,
but if you want a to display a map on your web page to annotate an
adventure you are righting, or you need to display a tank for an article
that you have composed about it, then its OK to use it. You also must still
have the site-wide copyright/trademark acknowledgment/disclaimer.

  6) What if I have a Special Case?
  Contact Far Future Enterprises (FarFuture@AOL.com) for a specific ruling.

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 19:46:56 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger threat?

> AUSTIN, Texas (AP)  Superflares powerful enough to fry nearby planets
> regularly erupt from distant stars that are just like the sun, but such
>death-dealing explosions are unlikely to occur in the solar system, 
>astronomers say.

Handwave time, for this and the Maghiz.

Is it possible that the flares originate from the stars poles? (ala Neutron
stars). So that secondary effects at Parsec distances are only in the cone of
dispersal from the stars poles? Immediate effects in the plane of the stars
system are relatively limited?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:21:59 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: The Yahoo!/GeoCities Dispute

Dear Mr. Miller:

I have, since 31 December 1998, maintained a Web site dedicated to ship
design under T4/FF&Sv2 rules.  This Web site is on the GeoCities
server.  Given the changes to the GeoCities Terms of Service [ToS] that
went into effect at the end of June 1999, I suspect (in the absence of
legal advice to the contrary) that your intellectual property to the
underlying basis of my ship designs may be in jeopardy, in the event
that I should access my Web site to edit, change, or delete it.  Since
the revised ToS state, in part, that the site user

	 "warrant[s] that the owner of such Content has expressly granted,
Yahoo the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully
sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt,
publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform
and display such Content (in whole or part) worldwide and/or to
incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now
known or later developed",

I do not believe that I have your express permission to post material on
my site that is copyrightable by Far Futures Enterprises.

I would appreciate it if you would send me both written and e-mail
correspondence instructing me to remove any material that may include
Far Futures Enterprises material from Yahoo/GeoCities, with a 30-day
notice.  That way, I should be able to remove my Traveller material from
GeoCities, without granting them a share of intellectual ownership of
the removed materials.  By so doing, I will protect both my intellectual
property (the specific designs posted on my site) and yours (the
Traveller background and rules system, as described and extended in
_Fire, Fusion, and Steel_, 2d [T4] edition./

FWIW, I have already made arrangements to move my Traveller-related
material to downport.com.  This move should be completed no later than
07 July 1999.

I have forwarded a copy of this e-mail correspondence to Andrew Akins,
the original author of the Microsoft Excel 5.0 spreadsheet with which I
designed the Traveller starships in question.  I welcome his response as
well.

Thank you for your time, patience, and support,

John E. Groth
Baton Rouge, LA


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 18:26:38 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

At 11:31 AM 7/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Ian Ferguson wrote:
>> 
>>         the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
>>         sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
>>         existed. Anyone know what they are called?
>
>Well, if you've seen some of my in-laws ...

	In-laws aside, I believe the "Quaking Aspen" spattered all over
Colorado mountains scores fairly high on the "size" chart. No, not
that dinky little tree. The entire single organism that appears to
*you* to be a huge grove of "dinky little trees," but is in fact all
part of the same organism.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:37:19 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> Moties civilised for thousand and thousand of years. This is an assumption
> made by the crew of the McArthur. Turns out to be not true. Every few
> thousand years the Moties blasted themselved back to the stone age and had
> to rebuild again. This is how they solved their population problems. It was
> also wht Motie "Museums" tended to be in rural areas where they were less
> likely to be hit.

Which means, in essence, that subsequent Motie societies were able to
_rebuild_, rather than _build_, civilization.  (This was the whole
_point_ of the museums, IIRC.)  The difference is obvious, when one
considers the following:

1.  Motie societies will eventually rebuild.

2.  Rediscovering techniques in a museum will allow those techniques to
spread through society much more rapidly than initial discovery would.

3.  By not having to waste time "re-inventing fire", the Moties would
have more time each cycle to develop new tech.  While not all of their
new tech would survive the end of a given cycle, each cycle would tend
to have higher-tech systems or techniques surviving _somewhere_.  Next
cycle, the Moties already have fire, and don't have to waste their time
re-inventing the wheel.  Cycle after that, the lever, the pulley, and
Archimedes' Screw are all common knowledge....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:56:38 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www] 04 July 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource has posted its most recent update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.html.  

This update features:

 - an article by Glen Grant on creating a more detailed
background for your characters (in Doing It My Way)

 - minor updates to the Traveller FAQ (in the Information Center)

 - updates and corrections to the list of Traveller-related
mailing lists (in the Information Center/Traveller on the
Internet)

 - Several new ships in the Shipyard, from a new Naval Architect,
John "Black ICE" Groth.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages are still
not working, your questions, comments, and ideas are always
welcome at Freelance Traveller.  Please write to
freetrav@hotmail.com with any and all of them.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us,
making our existence possible.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:48:38 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Dirigible Combat

Rob Walls wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
> campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves something to
> be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
> The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
> help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would be
> great.

I don't have a copy on-hand, but I suspect that the Twilight: 2000
adventure "Air-Lords of the Ozarks" would give you some background (if
you convert from T:2K [1st ed] to T:2K [ver 2.2], you can get to the
equivalent of TNE, as both are GDW "House Rules" games).

For a quick-and-dirty treatment of zeppelins in air combat (WW I-era),
try GDW's "Blue Max."

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:04:54 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Re: KP and Battledress

Tom Wrote:

>According to both the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide and Star Mercs, a
Marine
>squad is normally mounted in an APC, so they do have vehicles to recharge
>power supplies.  (they can't agree on what that APC is, but that's another
>question).

Firstly, thanks for the reply.

I have not seen Star Mercs. I do agree on your last point here though. I
would point out that at TL15, the line between an APC and Spaceship would
have been very blurry or totaly dismissed as a relic of a pre-grav
technology. Given that a Tank at TL15 can orbit the moon, the main
difference of an APC and say a pinnace is the person defining it.

A marine would proberbly call it an APC, while a naval officer would call
it a pinnace.

And you thought a TML flame war was bad!

IMHO , there would be a god awfull turf war on who supplies the transport,
and since the Navy is the senior service (Al la Royal Navy), they would
proberbly win.

>In an planetary assault, I would assume that about a third of the Marines
>land by meteoric assault, without their vehicles.  The rest would arrive
by
>landing craft with their APCs plus attached tanks and meson artillery.
The

Would the marines have heavy artillery? To continue on my origional
thought, Artillery could easily be supplied by Naval assets. Fighters,
OrBatts and even artillery (rocket deployed salvo's launched from
space/fighters, that hover out of battle in an artillery pool untill
allocated by ground forces.

Squad based artillery (equivelent to mortars) would be the norm for most
units, maybe a Artillery BD, replacing the FMPG with an indirect projectory
weapon???

It also allows more marines on the firing line.

>second or third wave of landing craft would carry the APCs for the
meteoric
>assault element, along headquarters company support units (maintenance,
>supply, etc.).  This force needs only food and water and possibly some
>ammunition depending on what generation of Traveller you're using and how
>your Marines are equipped.  It should be self-sustaining foe close to a
>week, including a couple of days of intense combat.

I think that my point was a bit lost here. I am not disputing what
logistics was needed, but in fact pointing out WHO supplies it. It was
brought about by a post last week about cooking with a BD on, and I thought
"Why do they need to?" and the answer is: No they dont, because these guys
have massive support from the navy.

No matter how rich the Imperium is, and no matter how big the Imperial Navy
budget is, marines would be a scarce comodaty.

1. Each marine on board removes 1 naval crewman from the ship compliment.
2. The marines are dependant on the navy for transport.
3. It is extreamly wastefull to duplicate logistics, naval and marine, as
the navy would be expected to carry it.
4. Fighters can be used in space superiority and ground support. Tanks are
next to useless in space.
5. While their would be dedicated Marine Transport ships (The MEU assets of
the 3I), they woul be crewed by naval forces.


Darryl

Tom Schoene
Visit our Web Site : http://www.ParraCity.nsw.gov.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 19:28:49 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

On 07/05/99 at 12:22 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>>         Please forgive me for harping on this, but this is far 
>>         from sure. Not so long ago, it was suggested that the
>>         largest dinosaurs must have lived in the water, because
>>         they could not possible have supported their great bulks
>>         on land. It is now known that they were fully terrestrial.
>>         With the kind of bone that we have, and the conditions of
>>         Terra, it may well be that the dinosaurs were near or at 
>>         the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
>>         sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
>>         existed. Anyone know what they are called?

>Well, there are the redwoods. And then there are those multi-ton
>fungi they discovered a few years back. 

Anyone mentioned coral formations yet?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:48:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:27:12 -0400
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
...
>	mind that the Motie breeding system makes it impossible to
>	breed "...right up to the ragged edge of their carryign 
>	capacity with Warriors..." because that would imply a 
>	higher rate of reproduction among warriers than other races.

  Or it would imply that the Masters are letting their Warriors breed at
the expense of non-essential personnel; ideally the Warriors will be culled
by the conflict to come, and the new lands will support expansion of the
leadership bloodline and their followers*.

  * ooh - feudal technocracy, anyone? :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:58:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
...
>along with a few rounds of ammunition (or power supplies).  The crew
>links up dirtside, assembles the weapon, and operates it in support of
>company actions.

  This would really suck if a fellow with a vital components gets zapped
en route. Maybe drop the weapon in a can and give the crew extra ammo?

...
>6.  Light vehicles (armed).  Equivalent to air-dropping Avenger or
>TOW-armed HMMWVs.  See Case #5 above for delivery.  These light armed

  German Wiesels come to mind, IIRC.

...
>b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?

  GW preferred 10-man, so they could drop a full squad of Space Marines (two 
stands) or a pair of Dreadnoughts :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:55:49 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Battledress

I've been contemplating the very strong negative reaction to the GURPS
designed GTL12 Marine Commando Battledress (GT:SM p61). It seems obvious to
me that the major problem is that most people believe that it is way too
powerful. A squad of NPC's armed with this battledress would be generally
unbeatable by even well armed PC's. PC's armed in this fashion could conquer
a world. This would result in a generally unbalanced game. From the
statements it sounds like some feel that battledress should be weak enough
to be taken out by small arms.

I have to generally disagree with this. Let me describe how I've used this
kind of ironmongery in the past, and hopefully demonstrate that it has a
place in more than just MTU.

When running an active duty campaign I used rules from AH's Starship Trooper
game modified with Traveller stats to get the feel of ground combat that
Battledress of this type would give. Basically my PC's were individual
troopers and I ran the opposing forces (who were Zhodani, not bugs).  I
shaved off movement and armor value to account for the lower Zhodani TL and
boosted the stats of the weapon platforms upto tank stats. All this was way
before GURPS, of course, 1980's.

This would also work with Mercs. Just adjust the stats to get a lower level
of DR, movement etc., use a hex map with hexes equal to either 1 km per hex
or 1 mile per hex and go for it.

This kind of game lets you really bring out the heavy stuff. Major battle
riders, ortillary, tanks. Run it like a combination boardgame and RPG. You
can even let your PC's run squads of NPC's. Is it Traveller? Is FFW and HG
Traveller?  After the battle give'em medals and move on the next adventure.
But now they're real veterans. They've faced down a tank, while in a
battlesuit, whose air is leaking; watched the soldiers under their command,
and perhaps another PC, die from enemy fire; and if they won got to do mop
up operations, always a good plot hook if done right.

The other use for this kind of equipment is strait ex deus machina.  How
many have you used the old SDB ploy to bail your PC's out of some silly spot
they got themselves into, out of either stupidity, overzealousness or just a
couple of bad roles? You know? You've spent months on this campaign and now,
in just a few minutes, a bad role has the PC's whole party breathing vacuum.
Rather than leaving them to the cruel winds of fate, bam! There's a local
SDB to chase off the Pirates/Corsairs/Opposing Magacorp ship and pull our
heroes fat out of the fire.  You can use a Marine Commando unit the same
way. Our heroes bite off more than they can chew? Don't want to flush months
of gaming down the tubes because one PC decided to charge when he should
have been laying back and listening? Send in the Marines, preserve the PC's
and just give up this part of the campaign.

They other use is as a break. If the possibility exist that a force so
powerful could descend on your players if they cowboy too far, then
sometimes they'll use their heads instead of their guns and role-play to an
answer, instead of shooting their way to one.

As for the battledress itself. Is the design excessive? Maybe. Is the design
of the F/A-18 excessive? This is the product of one of the richest, most
technologically advanced star spanning empires in existence. If I was the
guy in charge of ordinance I'd push the designers to give me all they had.
If it could be taken out by small arms fire I'd have'em all shot with small
arms fire myself. For those who are worried about the 70 mph ground speed,
just add inline skates ala 'Star Kid'. (Okay it's very comic bookish, but
what the hell, its all for fun anyway.) Balance it out by giving the
opposing side weapons that can take out those babies, if you use them.
Missiles with shaped charges, PAWS and Meson guns that frag a battledressed
Marine stupid enough to play above NOE. (AH:Starship Troopers gave three
vertical movement speeds for troopers: Ground movement, Nape of Earth, and
High Altitude Flight[also known as I'M A TARGET mode].) Next time I use it I
intend to try Bob Sanders system of modular armor to give my players a
greater variety of weaponry.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:50:32 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [SUGG] Non-Imperial Marines

> >IMTU, the Imperial armed forces have two arms: the Navy and the Marines.
> >The Navy fly the ships; the Marines are the troops who are sent out.
> >"Army" is used only to refer to planetary ground forces that belong to
> >a specific planet's own armed forces, rather than to the Imperium.
>
>         Same here.

The Imperial Marines are not a seperate organization, they are part of the
Imperial Navy, they just have their own command structure (as historical
marines have done), which is subservient to the naval command structure,
usually at the level of the captain of the ship on which they are currently
stationed. Obviously, once detached from a ship on a particular mission they
may no longer be directly under the command of the ship's captain, unless
they are marines assigned to his ship and it's a small ship with no staff
level marine officer.

Notice also that in the character generation rules marine pilots cannot gain
starship pilot skills, and this along with there being no cannonical
references to marine-controlled ships, implys that the Imperial Marines are
not a seperate organization. (if they were truly seperate they would have
their own transportation, like the Scouts )

The Imperial Army is a cannonical entity ( since Book 4, as no detail is
present in Book 1)  It includes COACC, and the "wet"  Navy, though only
ground forces are covered in Book 4. Note also that there is no coverage of
"ships troops" or security in Book 5, as it is assumed that this is provided
by a ship's marine detachment, and there is a specific assignment for
Marines, and a skill table in Book 4 for "ships troops".

> >(In fact, this was my understanding about how the Imperial armed forces
> >were organized for quite a long time. (I started playing Traveller in
> >1981.))
>
>         Same here.  On both counts.

I started in 1977, using a hand-written copy of the rules a friend had
"copied" from the only real copy of the books in the country, so don't try
to pull the grognard on me.

Just to make it clear though, that post of mine was merely an attempt to
point out, one, that the US is not the only country to have marines, and
that the US Marine Corp as it is now is an aberration compared to how Marine
forces have been organized in other navys or even how the US marines were
organized historically.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:05:38 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

> From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
> But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members
of 
> this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability,
and 
> relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
> explanations for your reasoning. 

I own every version, but play only CT - except in the very very rare
occasions someone else is the ref.

I milk the other versions for background, inspiration, and just plain
entertainment - stuff like Path of Tears is just a good read, even though
TNE's rules make my ears bleed.

Why do I prefer CT?  Well, nostalgia is a part of it.  MT was a little too
broken for my tastes when it first came out, and I have never had any great
desire to go though lots and lots of books doing errata.  Similarly T4,
unfortunately.  As I mentioned above, I just plain don't like the system
used in TNE - I was never a T2K player, due to anti-nuclear allergies of
the sort that were common in the '80s.  As for GURPS, well, no-one seems to
play it much here anyway, and I'm not going to teach it to other people
just so I can play Traveller!

Those are the negatives.  The positive side is that CT is simple.  Partly
that's familiarity, of course.  When I'm playing a game I tend not to like
to be distracted by rules, so I can concentrate on actual plot and
characterisation.  If I want to play a wargame, I will, but when I'm
role-playing I prefer a looser framework.

My 'dream' set of basic Traveller rules would be something like three
CT-style little black books, with some of the gear from Mercenary, robot
rules similar to those in the Best of the Journal #1, and a really dumb set
of vehicle combat rules no more complex than Book 1 combat.  It wouldn't
have to deal with really fabulous military vehicles - stuff like a fairly
basic G-carrier and a tracked/wheeled APC/LAV would do for most uses.  It
should also be able to deal with fire against grounded civilian ships.

It should also be supported by two more LBBs - one that's a big set of
accurately cross-referenced examples of 'how to do things' - generate a
character, run combats of various types, and so on - that is separate from
the main text of the rules.  The other should concentrate on campaign and
scenario design - something missing from CT, and other early generation
RPGs, but essential in more modern games.

This basic box could then be supplemented by tons of background material,
optional, more complex rules, and so on, with all this stuff being distinct
from the basic rules, rather than bound together like T4.  To run a game,
then, you would need a small pile of little 'pure rules' books, plus your
campaign notes, and not have to wade through a hundred pages of
irrelevancies and 'art' every time you want to find anything.

Would such a thing sell?  Probably not.  Then again, the RPG market is
pretty much saturated, so putting out any game at the moment is a problem. 
It might just be easier for me to assemble such a set of rules myself, for
my own games....

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:32:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

Terry Carlino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
I've been contemplating the very strong negative reaction to the GURPS
designed GTL12 Marine Commando Battledress (GT:SM p61). <snip> This would result in a generally unbalanced game. From the
statements it sounds like some feel that battledress should be weak enough
to be taken out by small arms.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Small Arm: a standard weapon carried by an infantry trooper. There is
no reason these weapons should not advance in capability with
the tech at the same rate the power armor does.

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
When running an active duty campaign I used rules from AH's Starship Trooper
game modified with Traveller stats to get the feel of ground combat that
Battledress of this type would give. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Traveller has tanks. In Starship Troopers, the battle-dress infantry
effectively *were* the tanks.

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for the battledress itself. Is the design excessive? Maybe. Is the design
of the F/A-18 excessive? This is the product of one of the richest, most
technologically advanced star spanning empires in existence. If I was the
guy in charge of ordinance I'd push the designers to give me all they had.
If it could be taken out by small arms fire I'd have'em all shot with small
arms fire myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Check the price of an F-18 vs the price of an effective manpack SAM.

Note that the same design firms creating battle dress will be happy to
accept a contract for a longarm usable by unarmored troops that is
capable of cracking battle dress. In the original Traveller rules, several
small arms were capable of taking out a BD trooper. Thus BD troopers
in Traveller should act like infantrymen, not like invulnerable supermen.

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 For those who are worried about the 70 mph ground speed,
just add inline skates ala 'Star Kid'. (Okay it's very comic bookish, but
what the hell, its all for fun anyway.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oooohhh...can I give these to my opponents? I want to see a band of
armored troopies kick on 70mph inline rocket skates on a battlefield. The 
Wile E. Coyote effects will give my troops a wonderful morale boost. <G>

GURPS is home to many genres that create super killer battlesuits - 
Mecha and Superhero settings especially. These seem to be inspiring 
the GT perspective on Battledress, and the effects are quite different 
than those provided by the original Traveller universe. 

IMO, the striking power of an Imperial Marine unit was based on it's
mobility, coordination with Navy assets, advanced weaponry, and
superior training and experience. It wasn't based on each individual
Marine being invulnerable, super-strong, and able to leap tall buildings
in a single bound, no matter what all those recruiting videos say... :-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #819
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, July 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 820



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #817
[OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Glow in the Dark Lief Erikson!
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re : Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany
RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's comments)
Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #817
Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
re: Battledress
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 19:41:41 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #817

>But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of 
>this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and 
>relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
>explanations for your reasoning. 

Speaking for myself -- I am running a campaign using GURPS Traveller. 
I chose this because I myself and most of my gaming group are long-term
GURPS fans, while only myself and one other had any real familiarity 
with Traveller and its universe.

However, I find that I can get useful information from any version of
Traveller (though I am completely and totally unfamiliar with T4...).
So if someone posts something that's based on CT rules, if it's in any
way interesting and/or useful, I can adapt it to GT without trouble.

The two things I have to keep reminding myself are that GURPS tech
levels are not quite the same as Traveller (any version) tech levels,
and that a displacement ton in Traveller (volume of 1 ton of liquid
hydrogen) is not the same as a standard GURPS Space displacement ton
(volume of one ton of liquid water). 

In any case, I welcome the posts from all the different versions and
editions of Traveller: CT, MT, TNE, GT, T4, whatever -- it increases
the odds of my finding something with which I can say "hey, yeah, I can
try this in *my* campaign!"  :)

- - g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 20:49:11 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

I attended Dragon*Con this past weekend (spur of the moment thing). 
During my time at the con, I was accosted by a fan of the follow-on
series to _Babylon 5_, _Crusade_.  Said fan informed me that we have
only until 15 July 1999 to convince TNT to renew _Crusade_ for another
season, due to the need to renew actors' contracts.

Please go to the following URL for details on how to save _Crusade_:

http://www.astro.umd.edu/~fleming

[Note:  Snail mail is more effective in such a campaign.]

ObTrav:  Consider the Vilani, trying to deal with the Terran use of
bioweapons during the Interstellar Wars.  Should _Crusade_ go under,
there goes a source of inspiration on this subject....


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:40:46 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

> The recent threads concerning the Imperial Marines, along with issues
> relating to my ref's current campaign (which is based on my character's
> command of an Imperial Army jump troop regiment), have led me to
> contemplate crew-served weapons for jump troop and Marine units.  As I
> see it, crew-served weapons for a meteoric assault unit (Marine, Army,
> or other) would consist of one or more of the following:
>
> 1.  Heavy weapons that can be deployed in a single assault capsule.
> Equivalent to air-dropping Ma Deuce (the M2 Heavy Barrel caliber .50
> machine gun, for the uninitiated).  This weapon is a bit too large to
> fit into a capsule that also contains its gunner.  Its crew (probably a
> two-man team [gunner and assistant gunner] links up with the weapon on
> the ground, and operates it in support of platoon/company actions.
>
> 2.  Heavy weapons whose parts can be carried by its crew.  Equivalent to
> air-dropping a light-to-medium mortar (60mm to 81mm) with its crew.
> Each crewbeing carries a piece of the weapon in his/her/its capsule,
> along with a few rounds of ammunition (or power supplies).  The crew
> links up dirtside, assembles the weapon, and operates it in support of
> company actions.

The major difference betwen these two options would  be that the second is
more survivable in a hot DZ, the troops can just run and assemble later,
whereas the first option , if the weapon is not aotonmous, means you lose
the weapon.

Another possibility is weapon designed specifically as a droppable heavy
weapon

In this case, once airspeed drops below a predetermind values, the weapon
automatically deploys and begins seeking targets.

It could even use grav, balloons, or parachutes to "loiter" providing aerial
support, spotting, or FO/designation operation to ortillery units.

> 3.  Heavy weapons whose parts can be dropped in multiple assault
> capsules.  I can't think of any weapons systems that are air-dropped in
> this manner (then again, I'm not combat arms).  Similar in concept to
> Case #2 above, except that the crewbeings must track down the parts and
> assemble them.  This type of weapon would probably be used at battalion
> level, as part of a dedicated weapons company.

> 4.  Heavy weapons that can be dropped in outsize capsules.  Equivalent
> to air-dropping a 105mm howitzer.  This class of weapon differs from
> Case #1, in that it requires larger-than-standard drop capsules (or
> ablative drop pallets).  It would generally be found in dedicated
> batteries or battalions.  Ammunition or power supplies would also be
> dropped in outsize capsules or ablative drop pallets.

See below re the tech level and grav capabilities

> 5.  Light vehicles (unarmed).  Equivalent to air-dropping HMMWVs as
> [exapmles are not all-inclusive] prime movers for light artillery, or
> with SIGINT/EW modules on the back.  Depending on the size of the
> vehicle in question, and the size of outsize capsules developed, these
> would be delivered in either outsize capsules or ablative drop pallets.
> Alternatively, they could either ride down in landing craft or
> self-deploy using their grav modules, time permitting.

If you've got battle-dress and grav belts, vehicles are a waste of time.

If you've got grav tech armoured or unarmoured G-Carriers will be used for
all the above purposesm, and will land themselves from orbit with ablative
or other sheilds in the first  wave and be deployed from assault carriers in
the second wave if everything goes according to plan.

If you _haven't_ got  grav, well then you'd better hope the defender hasn't
or you're probably dead.

In this case the most likely  transport will be heavily-modified V-TOL or
rotary aircraft ( such as the thing in Aliens ), or standard helicopter gun
ships and air/close-orbit superiority fighters , launched from a landed
assault carrier or from orbit.

Wheeled and tracked vehicles might be used also, but probably only after the
beachhead was established.

> 6.  Light vehicles (armed).  Equivalent to air-dropping Avenger or
> TOW-armed HMMWVs.  See Case #5 above for delivery.  These light armed
> vehicles would most likely be found in dedicated weapons platoons or
> companies/batteries.

Again, no point in having light vehicles if you have battle dress.

And again the G-carrier or grav tank or specialized version of these ( such
as grav self-propelled meson or fusion artillery) will do this job.

> I would welcome any suggestions concerning the following:
>
> a.  What is the most effective weapon for each case discussed above?

If you've got the tech and the money,  fusion artillery is the best for all
cases except indirect fire support, in which case meson artillery is best.

At lower tech the question is highly dependant on what tech you do have and
in what areas.

Missiles only make sense for anti-tank use, but if you control the skies
(which you really _have_ to do for a succesful assault ) then kinetic
ortillery is probably better at taking out tanks than any missile you can
carry on the ground, so direct fire and explosive devices,  ( artillery,
rockets,  VRF gauss guns etc become useful )

 > b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?
>
> c.  What is the largest feasible ablative drop pallet?

IMO. about the size of a G-Carrier for both . Anything bigger it's probably
better to use a Gcarrier or
a ship.

> d.  How long should it take to assemble a weapon dropped in separate
> pieces (Case #3)?  (Assume four pieces, each massing about 20 kg.  Do
> not include the time it takes for the crewbeings to rendezvous with the
> component parts.)

About 30 seconds, if anything.

At TL12+ I'd expect the weapon to be autonoumous enough to deploy and
assemble itself on landing and prevent itself from being captured by enemy
troops.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 18:49:21 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Glow in the Dark Lief Erikson!

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

> A friend had the *original* model (something or other "Lief Ericson")
> back in the mid 60s. I picked up the glow in the dark version in the
> 70s. I seriously doubt that production of the "UFO something or other"
> *or* the "Lief Ericson" were less than multiple *thousands*. You
> literally can't afford to fire up the injection molding machine that
> produces the pieces for a run of less than 10,000 or so.
> 
> I still have my glow in the dark one. And it *ain't* for sale!

That was the MacArthur from The Mote in God's Eye?  Wow.  I built the
Leif Erikson when I was a teenager (early 1970s), years before I read
the book.  I wonder what ever happened to my model?  Or my Grumman F4F,
my F4U Corsair, my Nakajima Hayabusa, my Hawker Hurricane, my Klingon
Battleship, my USS Enterprise, etc., etc.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 21:45:11 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> >Subject: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
>

**from Case #2, original post** ...

> >along with a few rounds of ammunition (or power supplies).  The crew
> >links up dirtside, assembles the weapon, and operates it in support of
> >company actions.
> 
>   This would really suck if a fellow with a vital components gets zapped
> en route. Maybe drop the weapon in a can and give the crew extra ammo?

It surely _would_ suck, should a crewbeing purchase agricultural lands
("buy a farm") during the drop, with said crucial part remaining outside
the perimeter.  However, as those who have watched the "Space: Above and
Beyaond" episode "Sugar Dirt" could point out, ground-based fire-support
assets are a _good_ thing.  If the desired heavy weapon won't fit in one
capsule, then one must either drop the weapon in pieces, or drop it
unattended.  Either way, one must drop extra ammunition/power supplies,
or the weapon in question falls silent.

Meanwhile, see Case #1 (heavy weapon that can be dropped in a single
assault capsule).  I used a cal .50 as an example, but that doesn't mean
that other crew-served weapons can't be dropped in a single assault
capsule.  Case #2 was meant to describe weapons (in general) that
_won't_ fit in a single can, and must therefore be dropped either in
pieces [case #2] or in outsize capsules (case #4).
> 
> ...
> >6.  Light vehicles (armed).  Equivalent to air-dropping Avenger or
> >TOW-armed HMMWVs.  See Case #5 above for delivery.  These light armed
> 
>   German Wiesels come to mind, IIRC.

The Wiesel is a fine airborne [lightly] armored support vehicle
(although, I must admit, I'm quite partial to the M551-seires
Sheridan).  In fact, in a 1990s socio-politico-economic simulation, I
specified the Wiesel as a support vehicle for my airborne forces. 
However, when converting to Traveller, one must ask not only what are
the capabilities of the light vehicles in question, but also how will
the fire support vehicles get into position to support me?  Can my fire
support vehicle hit dirt via meteroric assault, or must I wait until the
landing craft touch down to get my mobile heavy weapon support?
> 
> ...
> >b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?
> 
>   GW preferred 10-man, so they could drop a full squad of Space Marines (two
> stands) or a pair of Dreadnoughts :)

I can live with that, as the limit for a heavy-drop capsule.  Based on a
10x capsule, and assuming that said capsule has a more-or-less
cylindrical shape, I can devise the largest possible weapon that can fit
in such a canister.  Does anyone else have other ideas on this subject?

Also, what might be the limit for vehicle ablative drop pallets, in both
volume and mass?  _Could_ one drop a Sheridan-equivalent from orbit?


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:34:07 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> Bone is actually *stronger* than steel. It's a 2-phase compsite of
> calcium phosphate(?) and collagen. Sort of like fiberglass or
> graphite/epoxy composites.

The offending salts are calcium phosphate and calcium hydroxyapatites.
Type I collagen which is also found in tendons and skin is, weight for
weight, as strong as steel.

Thanks Leonard for posting the other info to the list, for the benefit
of other readers that may be unfamiliar with the subject matter (check
my tagline?).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:36:07 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
<with regard to oxygen and forest fires> :-
> I seem to recall that it's more a matter of "partial pressure" rather
> than percentage. So, for example, a world with 6 psi O2 partial
> pressure out of, say 60 psi *total*, would only have 10% O2 but be a
> *major* fire hazard. It'd definitely be toxic to humans in short order!

I apologise for the imprecision. One atmosphere ambient pressure was
assumed and this should have been stipulated. 

With regard to oxygen toxicity :-
i. Normobaric (1 ATA pressure)
* In individuals with emphysematous lung disease, inspired oxygen
concentrations of more than 35% will lead to hypercarbic respiratory
failure from ventilation - perfusion mismatch within 2-6 hours.
* At one atmosphere absolute pressure, 100% oxygen will cause chest pain
and decreased lung volume within eight hours in previously healthy
volunteers.
Marked diminution (15-20%) in vital capacity (lung volume) is evident
within 24 hours from absorption atelectasis (all oxygen removed from
alveoli, which therefore collapse).
* Within 48 hours, histological if not frank clinical evidence of
pulmonary oedema (lung flooding with inflammatory fluid) is present.
* Premature infants are at especial risk of also developing retrolental
fibroplasia of the lens of the eye from ingrowth of blood vessels, if
exposed to 100% O2 for this length of time.

ii. Hyperbaric
* High partial pressures of oxygen leads to central nervous system
stimulation -> fitting. Warning symptoms may include nausea, ringing in
the ears and facial twitching.
* The likelihood of fitting is a function of partial pressure and
duration of exposure. Increased uptake (e.g. exercise) is another
important consideration.
* At a partial pressure of oxygen of 4 atmospheres, fitting will occur
within 30 minutes. Hyperbaric chambers typically run with oxygen partial
pressures in the neighbourhood of 3 atmospheres, which suggests a very
steep dose response curve.
(Leonard, your example above is equivalent to a partial pressure of
oxygen of ~6/15 atm - I give critically ill patients more than this
routinely without any untoward effect).

With regard to an alternative greenhouse gas for the fluorine planet,
how about sulphur hexafluoride?

With regard to competing ecologies (or representatives thereof) :- 
> The invading
> organisms are estimated to have something like a billion year (?)
> advantage over us. 
This idea seems a little fishy to me (in the absence of genetic
engineering) ; I'll leave it to 'Peez' Ferguson
to comment on 'The War Against the Chtorr'.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:37:03 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's comments)

Ian Ferguson wrote :-
> Don't forget the important CO2 and pH regulating functions
>         of the lungs.

I wrote :-
<with regard to the kidneys> :-
> as a second level of 
> control on acid-base balance (carbon dioxide elimination from the 
> lungs is the primary controller)

With regard to biomes :-
> Just a thought: is it possible to have a gaseous 'sea?'
>         Picture a planet with a liquid ocean, a heavy atmosphere at
>         low elevations, and a distinct lighter atmosphere above a
>         certain elevation. Comments?
Yes, in Book 6, Scouts, there was an atmosphere type labelled as 'thin,
low'. Sounds like an intriguing place for a biologist to visit...

I concede the flawed reasoning about exoskeletons.

Regarding this suggestion :-
>  How about tissues, the missing link between cells and organs.
Good one!

I would note that nervous tissue requires relatively rapid conduction
velocities for it to be useful at all. Pressure wave conduction is a
viable alternative in creatures from very cold worlds where the overall
tempo of metabolism would be slower.

Muscles and contractile tissue? Pulleys and hydraulics would appear to
be the most promising paradigms.

Structural tissue : must be insoluble in solvent system. Metal
deposition is unlikely because reducing salts takes a lot of energy.

Hmm... to work!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

P.S. All you other TMLers :- if you would like this stuff to move off
list, say so!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:37:13 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

Black ICE wrote:

> Please go to the following URL for details on how to save _Crusade_:

I hate to say it, because I'm a HUGE B5 fan (well...seasons 2-4 anyway).
But...Crusade sucks.   It sucks hard.  I watched two episodes and they
were so bad that even with my B5 fanaticism behind me, I'm not taking the
time to watch the others.

TNT made a good call on this one.  The show sucks.  I don't know what's
going on with JMS.  He must have lost heart for the series.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:40:57 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson wrote :-
> We do know that certain
>         sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
>         existed. Anyone know what they are called?

Are you referring to animals with endoskeletons here?
Subsequent posters have talked about trees, coral, etc..
Mea culpa. I should have stipulated 'largest terrestrial animals'.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:46:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #817

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, cos 90 wrote:

> >But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of 
> >this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and 
> >relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
> >explanations for your reasoning. 
> 
> Speaking for myself -- I am running a campaign using GURPS Traveller. 
> I chose this because I myself and most of my gaming group are long-term
> GURPS fans, while only myself and one other had any real familiarity 
> with Traveller and its universe.

My gaming group are largely the same people I played classic Traveller and
MegaTraveller with from 1982 until 1992 or so. We also started playing
GURPS around 1988, and several of the new players also have a GURPS
background.  

I tried running a CT campaign two years ago, prior to the release of GT. I
ended up scrubbing the campaign for various reasons but was inspired to
start a GT campaign once I learned of the material. This was partially due
to Sufficient Boredom on my part--I had enough free time and money to
justify making a campaign happen. But it's also because GURPS and
Traveller have long been my favorite gaming systems (beating out THE
MORROW PROJECT, FGU's DAREDEVILS, and RUNEQUEST) and I longed for the
chance to take advantage of the best of both.

I'm no stranger to having to "homebrew" rules and debug gaming systems, so
where I have found problems with GURPS Traveller I have fixed them
unmercifully: I downsized the StarMercs Marine battledress considerably,
and made other changes to fit my own universe.  My players have always
been of the "let the GM worry about the rules" type, so familiarity with
game mechanics wasn't much of an issue.

But I find a great deal of congruence between GT and CT--I never got into
TNE or T4 (got disgusted when they decided to UTTERLY DESTROY the
game-universe I spent a decade collecting bacground information on!) but
GT seemed to be based on the Traveller universe/setting I liked best. I
like being able to use GURPS advantages/disadvantages for Traveller
characters (with the limitation that the characters have some sort of
Traveller-appropriate background) and it's nice having characters that
don't risk dying during character generation...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:55:07 -0700
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

>Black ICE wrote:
>
>> Please go to the following URL for details on how to save _Crusade_:
>
>I hate to say it, because I'm a HUGE B5 fan (well...seasons 2-4 anyway).
>But...Crusade sucks.   It sucks hard.  I watched two episodes and they
>were so bad that even with my B5 fanaticism behind me, I'm not taking the
>time to watch the others.
>
>TNT made a good call on this one.  The show sucks.  I don't know what's
>going on with JMS.  He must have lost heart for the series.
>
>Kenneth.

I don't know.  It's a show with so much potential that it SCREAMS, yet it
ends up feeling like AD&D mixed with the second season of Buck Rogers.  It
also has to have been done on a shockingly low budget, the special effects
are what REALLY SUCKS!  I'm still trying to figure out how they did CGI
that bad!

I've seen all the episodes so far, and will probably see the rest, but I
don't think I'll miss it.  It's really a shame because the concept has so
many possibilities.

BTW, something to remember, they only filmed half of the first season
before TNT canned it.  The only reason they're showing it is to recoup some
of thier loses.  Who knows the Sci-Fi channel might pick it up if we're
lucky (would that be lucky?), after all they wanted to get B5, but TNT beat
them out.  It looks like it's on a low enough budget that it couldn't get
much worse if it went to the Sci-Fi channel.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:05:03 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

- ----------
> From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: [OT, With ObTrav]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
> Date: Monday, 05 July, 1999 11:37 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Black ICE wrote:
> 
> > Please go to the following URL for details on how to save _Crusade_:
> 
> I hate to say it, because I'm a HUGE B5 fan (well...seasons 2-4 anyway).
> But...Crusade sucks.   It sucks hard.  I watched two episodes and they
> were so bad that even with my B5 fanaticism behind me, I'm not taking the
> time to watch the others.

Mileage varies.  The first two eps are the weakest so far, in part because
of TNT meddling (so says JMS, and if the changes he ascribes to TNT are
correct, I'm inclined to agree.  Things like "we need a fight scene," which
gave us that cheesy brawl in Episode 1 and "we need evidence of Earth in
turmoil" which gave us bad archival riot footage.).  The most recent
episode was pretty impressive, I thought.  No action at all, but lots of
backstory and character development, which is surprising for TV SF.  Now, I
can see how some people would not like it (no action), but I thought it was
a good show.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:05:26 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: re: Battledress

Walter Smith wrote:
>Small Arm: a standard weapon carried by an infantry trooper. There is
>no reason these weapons should not advance in capability with
>the tech at the same rate the power armor does.

Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper". Except in the insanity
of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly available to
just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not normally
have access to the same weapons available to infantry.

>Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>When running an active duty campaign I used rules from AH's Starship
Trooper
>game modified with Traveller stats to get the feel of ground combat that
>Battledress of this type would give.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Traveller has tanks. In Starship Troopers, the battle-dress infantry
>effectively *were* the tanks.

True. However in the AH:Game a type of more heavily armed hovering platform
is available to some opponents. The platform if my memory is correct has a
higher movement factor than the Troopers and more firepower. The specific
game stats were not important as I raised them to simulate tanks anyway.

>Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>As for the battledress itself. Is the design excessive? Maybe. Is the
design
>of the F/A-18 excessive? This is the product of one of the richest, most
>technologically advanced star spanning empires in existence. If I was the
>guy in charge of ordinance I'd push the designers to give me all they had.
>If it could be taken out by small arms fire I'd have'em all shot with small
>arms fire myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Check the price of an F-18 vs the price of an effective manpack SAM.

I suspect that under most combat conditions manpack SAM's haven't been an
effective deterrent. At least I don't think we lost any planes to them in
either Kosovo or Iran.

>Note that the same design firms creating battle dress will be happy to
>accept a contract for a longarm usable by unarmored troops that is
>capable of cracking battle dress.

Absolutely. And such weapons are probably available to some Merc companies,
and I'm sure that the Zhodani have a few designs along those lines too. I
just doubt most PC's will find them at Honest Kern's surplus weapons.

>Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>For those who are worried about the 70 mph ground speed,
>just add inline skates ala 'Star Kid'. (Okay it's very comic bookish, but
>what the hell, its all for fun anyway.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Oooohhh...can I give these to my opponents? I want to see a band of
>armored troopies kick on 70mph inline rocket skates on a battlefield. The
>Wile E. Coyote effects will give my troops a wonderful morale boost. <G>

Strictly for on road transport, of course. Any battlefield transport will be
at Nape of Earth. For planetary combat, outside a metropolitan area, you use
Battledress like a gunship. Any concentration of living things, not
exhibiting IFF you toast. That's what the AESA and Radscanner is for. You
paint my buddy with your targeting laser and even if you take him out I
saturate the area with lots or ordinance, either my own or for artillery.
You use an energy weapon of any kind I toast you. You use a communicator. I
toast you. You shoot a missile at me and I drop below the tree tops and use
countermeasures.

>IMO, the striking power of an Imperial Marine unit was based on it's
>mobility, coordination with Navy assets, advanced weaponry, and
>superior training and experience. It wasn't based on each individual
>Marine being invulnerable, super-strong, and able to leap tall buildings
>in a single bound, no matter what all those recruiting videos say... :-)

That's all battledress is advanced weaponry.  It's not invulnerable. The
right weapon will take it out. Fixed and vehicle weapons can take out a
Marine in Battledress, as can support weapons, if you hit the guy enough
times. I haven't played the Marine Commando armor yet, but when I do you can
bet I'll use a battle damage table to reduce the suits effectiveness as a
result of battle damage. I expect the GURPS active duty military book when
it comes out will have an anti-battledress weapon in it (as well as
antiarmor weapons. Even before that I'll probably put together something if
I use battledress in my game (As opposed to just running a scenario to see
how it plays.)
And as for leaping tall buildings at a single bound. With contra-grav belts
available at GTL12, any fighting force that doesn't equip its troops with
flight capability, is just plain negligent. Might as well not even send they
out with NBC capability. Yeah I know most GM's hate contra-grav belts. And
some don't allow them at all. (It's very hard to strand your players
somewhere if they've got them.) But I think they're great plot devices to
get your players to the action, and much easier to control than a player who
has teleportation.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:51:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

In mail you write:

>> >b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?
>> 
>>   GW preferred 10-man, so they could drop a full squad of Space Marines 
> (two
>> stands) or a pair of Dreadnoughts :)
>
> I can live with that, as the limit for a heavy-drop capsule.  Based on a
> 10x capsule, and assuming that said capsule has a more-or-less
> cylindrical shape, I can devise the largest possible weapon that can fit
> in such a canister.  Does anyone else have other ideas on this subject?
>
> Also, what might be the limit for vehicle ablative drop pallets, in both
> volume and mass?  _Could_ one drop a Sheridan-equivalent from orbit?

I wouldn't "drop" it as such. Use a grav tank, and an ablative shell
(complete with deployable, jettisonable "air brakes"). It makes like a
meteor, though with some interesting "jags" in it's course as airbrakes
deploy and burn off.

Once it's low enough, kick in the CG at max decel and jettison any
remaining shell.

Assuming decent CG "redline" power availibity, it'll get down faster
than coming down on CG all the way. 

And yes, you have the thing *crewed* for this. 

I expect that even drop troops consider the crews of this sort of
support craft to be nuts. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #820
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, July 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 821



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [OT, With ObTrav]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_ 
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
re: Battledress
re: Battledress
Re: Battledress 
RE: Xenobiology 101:
re: Battledress
More FFS2 questions
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
Versions
Re: Versions 
re: Battledress
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany
Re: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's comments)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:09:53 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [OT, With ObTrav]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_ 

> > Black ICE wrote:
> > 
> > > Please go to the following URL for details on how to save _Crusade_:
> > 
> > I hate to say it, because I'm a HUGE B5 fan (well...seasons 2-4 anyway).
> > But...Crusade sucks.   It sucks hard.  I watched two episodes and they
> > were so bad that even with my B5 fanaticism behind me, I'm not taking the
> > time to watch the others.

So where's the URL?

My biggest beef with them, btw, is their entire 'promo' was several ads on TNT
starting about a month before the first ep.  Hardly anybody knew it was around
unless you were lucky enough to catch one of the ads.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:46:33 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:40:25 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>> Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:25:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>
>>>Actually, we've found that the *biggest* habitat is inside the crust!
>>>The single-celled organisms in deep rock may well outmass the rest of
>>>the biosphere.:-)
>>
>> You should underline "may" a few times.  This claim is very speculative.

>>From what I've read, they've *definitely* established that the
>chemosynthetic organisms are all thru the crust, anyplace there's a
>crack. So the calculations that say they may outmass the rest of the
>organisms on earth aren't that far-fetched. For them *not* to, you'd
>have to make some unlikely assumptions unless I mis-remember the
>articles.

Its not so much that they are "far-fetched" but that there is so
limited data.  The scientist doing the ground breaking work
have to sample wells and such, nobody is directly sampling
several km into the crust under sterile conditions.  They
have done a reasonable job of established the likelyhood that
chemosynthetic organisms are living on basalt and CO2 in the
deep crust, but they, at least when I've talked to them, feel
more work needs to be done (unfortunately the budgets for this
sort of thing are limited).

As the idea that these organsims outmass the rest of the biosphere,
that is basically back of the evelope calculations based on a few
data points that needs to taken with more than a grain of salt.
I might turn out to right, but I wouldn't count on it just yet.

There have also been speculation about the linking, throught a
subsurface layer, of widely disperses hydrothermal systems to
explain the relationship of some organisms.  However, that is
speculation.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:58:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

Terry Carlino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Walter Smith wrote:
>Small Arm: a standard weapon carried by an infantry trooper. 
<snip>

Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper". Except in the insanity
of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly available to
just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not normally
have access to the same weapons available to infantry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agreed. However, in no "sane world" will Imperial Marines - the best
fighting force available to a civilization of 11,000 worlds - be sent on
meteoric assault missions against Joe Blow on the street. 

Or do YTU Marines wear white plastic armor with black eye-slits? ;)

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Note that the same design firms creating battle dress will be happy to
>accept a contract for a longarm usable by unarmored troops that is
>capable of cracking battle dress.

Absolutely. And such weapons are probably available to some Merc companies,
and I'm sure that the Zhodani have a few designs along those lines too. I
just doubt most PC's will find them at Honest Kern's surplus weapons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ah, now you're siccing these combat monsters on PC's. You evil
GM you. ;)

Let me be a little more precise: if Battledress becomes the standard
infantry uniform, then the standard infantry weapon will become one
capable of reliably cracking Battledress. Not the heavy weapons, the
special weapons, the orbital or vehicle weapons...the **standard** infantry
weapons.

Once such weapons become the standard, they will become available
to troops not covered in Battledress. Classic Traveller had Gauss Rifles
and HEAT rounds for gunpowder-style rifles (and even pistols), and
others as well. What does GURPS have? 

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Any concentration of living things, not exhibiting IFF you toast. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Can we at least wait until the band of refugees fire a weapon at someone?

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
That's what the AESA and Radscanner is for. You
paint my buddy with your targeting laser and even if you take him out I
saturate the area with lots or ordinance, either my own or for artillery.
You use an energy weapon of any kind I toast you. You use a 
communicator. I toast you. You shoot a missile at me and I drop below
the tree tops and use countermeasures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As Ditzie Spoofalum put it: "You want a tank, buy a tank."

OK, in this case it's a Grav Tank, but the concept is still the same.

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's all battledress is advanced weaponry.  It's not invulnerable. The
right weapon will take it out. Fixed and vehicle weapons can take out a
Marine in Battledress, as can support weapons, if you hit the guy enough
times. I haven't played the Marine Commando armor yet, <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Try some weapons against a Commando Battlesuit. I only have it
secondhand (not having that particular supplement), but I've been
hearing things about fusion guns not hurting them.

If I need a tank to kill it, and it can kill a tank, it's a tank. This is simply
a major change between the GURPS TU and the official TU - Battledress
was good stuff, it wasn't a Panther-G on steroids.

The conversion to GURPS seems to have geared up an arms race. 
Battledress becomes mecha, infantry weapons get upgraded to
be able to hurt it, grav tanks get beefed up until they make Bolos look
wimpy - they have to, otherwise no one would buy tanks, they'd just 
get a fire team of guys in Battledress. No tech level increase required,
just look at the background material with a different rules set. <WEG>

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And as for leaping tall buildings at a single bound. With contra-grav belts
available at GTL12, any fighting force that doesn't equip its troops with
flight capability, is just plain negligent. Might as well not even send they
out with NBC capability. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Lack of NBC equipment will get you killed. A CG belt will*also* get you
killed. A point defense system even minimally capable of knocking down a 
GTL-12 missile will only miss a man in a GTL-12 CG belt if the computer fire 
control has an emotion simulator chip and feels pity for the poor grunt.

Flight capability is nice. Put it in armored G-carriers and scary assault
landers where it belongs. The only guys who get CG belts should be the 
commandos and raider forces who never fight anyone who's ready for them.

Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yeah I know most GM's hate contra-grav belts. And
some don't allow them at all. (It's very hard to strand your players
somewhere if they've got them.) But I think they're great plot devices to
get your players to the action, and much easier to control than a player who
has teleportation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My PC's tended to use them as tools, rather than as transportation.
We had a few exceptions, but the common use of a CG belt was to
climb a wall or sneak up on someone. Price was one reason - we
seldom had enough for everyone, IIRC we often had one or two
but no more.

I admit to being happy to control their use. I never killed anyone for
using their CG belt, but we did have some entertainment with winds,
passing delivery "trucks", being mistaken on a low-tech planet for a
hostile UFO...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 23:11:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Battledress

>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>Subject: re: Battledress
...
>>Check the price of an F-18 vs the price of an effective manpack SAM.
>
>I suspect that under most combat conditions manpack SAM's haven't been an
>effective deterrent. At least I don't think we lost any planes to them in
>either Kosovo or Iran.

  The war against Yugoslavia was a meaningful model of the battlefields in
which shoulder-launched SAM's were supposed to help defend ground forces?

  FWIW, IIRC, the main things that Iran cost you was a few choppers and your
shot at the World Cup.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 02:11:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress 

> >From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
> >Subject: re: Battledress
> ...
> >>Check the price of an F-18 vs the price of an effective manpack SAM.
> >
> >I suspect that under most combat conditions manpack SAM's haven't been an
> >effective deterrent. At least I don't think we lost any planes to them in
> >either Kosovo or Iran.
> 
>   The war against Yugoslavia was a meaningful model of the battlefields in
> which shoulder-launched SAM's were supposed to help defend ground forces?
> 
>   FWIW, IIRC, the main things that Iran cost you was a few choppers and your
> shot at the World Cup.

Strange...

Last time I remember us tryin to invade Iran was back a bit before Regan took 
office.  That would put it back, what, 20 years?  '79ish?

Keven


- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:25:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101:

> From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
> Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's
> comments)
 
> P.S. All you other TMLers :- if you would like this stuff to move off
> list, say so!!

I'm not following this thread closely, but I don't mind it.  It seems
very on-topic when I do scan it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 23:37:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: Battledress

> From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
> Subject: re: Battledress
> 
> Walter Smith wrote:
> >Small Arm: a standard weapon carried by an infantry trooper. There is
[deletion]
> 
> Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper". Except in the insanity
> of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly available to
> just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not normally
> have access to the same weapons available to infantry.

It's not exactly correct that, "[e]xcept [for] ... last two centuries,
Military weapons were not commonly available to just anybody."  There
really wasn't much distinction between military and non-military weapons
until the rise of mass armies in the 19th century (nor was there much of
a professional infantry until about then).  Before then, civilian
weapons were about as good as military weapons -- sometimes better,
because they were manufactured more slowly, and hence more carefully,
than military weapons, which might be churned out of weapon-smiths'
shops as fast the smiths could make them.  Mass production with
consistently high product quality didn't come about until the 19th
century.  The military's advantages in conflicts with civilians were
usually more men, more weapons, more ammunition (if we're talking about
weapons that use ammunition), and, of course, military discipline.  The
farther back in time you go, the more this is true. 

Recall that the American revolutionaries whose declaration we here in
the USA celebrated this past weekend were mostly armed with their own
personal weapons at the beginning of the war, but were able eventually
to defeat the British army (with help from Britain's enemies, like
France).  Moreover, almost four hundred years prior, the British yeomen
at Agincourt roundly defeated the pride of the French war machine (i.e.,
heavily armored knights) with their own longbows, which they used at
home to bring down game.  So that yeoman infantry owned personal weapons
that proved superior to the regular French cavalry.  

On the other hand, at various times and in various places throughout
history, the ruling class has imposed limitations on private ownership
of weapons.  Okinawa under Japanese domination during feudal times is a
good example (incidentally, Okinawan karate, of which shotokahn is the
modern descendant, was developed for unarmed and unarmored citizens to
defeat armed and armored soldiers in personal combat).  

Moreover, many restrictions on private ownership of military-grade
weapons only arose in the last two centuries, when small arms and light
crew-served weapons became efficient at killing large numbers of
people.  (See The Social History of the Machine Gun, a great book that I
read about 20 years ago; I've forgotten the author.)  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:18:16 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: More FFS2 questions

My weapons design sheet for FFS2 is proceading well (should be ready
soon). However, I've struck another couple of errors.

1 - How do you calculate the barrel mass and carriage requirements for
    recoilless Rifles? I can find the modifiers for warheads, but thats all.

2 - How do you design launchers for battlefield missiles? especially for
    disposable launchers (I need that for the recoilless rifles too).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:48:09 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference


> An Old Traveller wanted to know:
>
> >But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members
of
> >this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability,
and
> >relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide
> >explanations for your reasoning.
>
> If I want to design something for Traveller, I use the T4 rules - I like
> the clarity and summary formulae given the the people who wrote the
errata.
>
> For play, I use the T4.x rules (actually my own variation). this because
> T4 sort of has the right feel and with Marc's T5 beta rules on disk,
> these are the easiest version to hack into my own set.
>
> Plus I like M0 as a setting - I can boldly go where everyone has gone
> before - and get there first.
>
> A lot of the GT stuff looks like the sort of things people would
> have written for T4 if they had thought someone would (a) pay them
> and (b) not add lots of errors. So I'm buying them for background.
>
> The MT and TNE periods were when material was being published stating
> how people thought things worked so I keep source books and Challenge
> from that period for technical background.
>
> CT is the Traveller "reality check", since things were so much simpler
> back then. A quick swop to CT stats can show if something looks
reasonable.
>
> Finally, if trying to make my point on the TML, when physics fails,
> then I'll misquote from whatever version of Traveller comes to hand.
>
> I find CT misquotes are considered the most authoritative.
>

LOL

**wiping tear from eye**  I love CT...

- -- The Roc  :^)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 05:32:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Versions

SciFiFan writes
>But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of
>this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and
>relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide
>explanations for your reasoning.
>
>
>Thank you,
>An Old Traveller.

Personally, I run a modified Mega Traveller, but have most of the US
versions of CT (missing a few adventures, and many issues of JTAS< but do
have best of JTAS vols 1-4).

My (somewhat sarcastic) opinions of the editions
<sarcasm=biting>
CT: The vision.
MT: The rules of choice
MT-HT: The beginning of the fall... Personally, I felt that the resolution
should have been a reformed and reunited 3I.... not the setup for virus. I
liked HT just fine on it's own merits until Survival Margin Came out.
TNE: The setting destroyed, the rules confounded, and PC's made into
Ubersophonten. Something about a vargr in combat armor surviving 7+ hits at
point blank from a FGMP-14.
T4: The vison returns, but the rules go screwy.
T4.1: The vision fades, the rules get patched.
GT: Less Canon, More inconsistancy. Playtesting is a forgotten art.
Continuity with 20 years of canon thrown out for ease of authors.
</sarcasm>

Seriously, tho, I have run all editions except GT... but the radical
changes from canon (ok, really, they are multiple, subtle, and insidious)
make my actually running GT as written less and less likely as more comes
out.

TNE I found too damned safe for PC's... you just can't kill them without
overkill. Plus, I hated the RCES and the changes in the Regency.
Additionally, I felt that most of the 3I should have resolved into a
restored 3I... not been wiped out by virus.

T4: to quote Marc Miller "Yes, it is TNE without virus"..... It lacked the
grand and wonderous tapestry of the late 3I...

Besides, my players have threatened to lynch me if I ever suggest TNE or T4
again.... currently, we're taking a break from SciFi. But I have constant
requests for MT, which I prefer anyway.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 05:57:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> SciFiFan writes
> >But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of
> >this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and
> >relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide
> >explanations for your reasoning.
> >
> >
> >Thank you,
> >An Old Traveller.
> 
> Personally, I run a modified Mega Traveller, but have most of the US
> versions of CT (missing a few adventures, and many issues of JTAS< but do
> have best of JTAS vols 1-4).
> 
> My (somewhat sarcastic) opinions of the editions
> <sarcasm=biting>
> CT: The vision.

The beginning, actually.  <grin>

> MT: The rules of choice

Hmmmmmmmm...  Sometimes I wonder bout that.  I never did get all the MT I 
could get my hands on, and I'm woefully deficient in eratta for it.

> MT-HT: The beginning of the fall... Personally, I felt that the resolution
> should have been a reformed and reunited 3I.... not the setup for virus. I
> liked HT just fine on it's own merits until Survival Margin Came out.

I *liked* HT.  I could see the point of massive destruction happening 
throughout the confines of the old Imperium; after all, several factions are 
fighting a war to the last drop.  But a restored 3I?  Not a chance.  
Personally, I'm of the same frame of mind as the guy they quoted in SM I 
think about if the Rebellion ended one day and everything went back to 
'normal', it would invalidate everything that had happened.  IMTU, the 
Rebellion *happenned*.  AAMOF, it's *still* happening (ca. 1124).  But even 
without Virus, the factions should *not* have recombined.  Instead, I would 
postulate several sector-sized or less pocket 'empires' based loosely on the 
'Safes', with the 'Wilds' still wild and rough and tumble.

> TNE: The setting destroyed, the rules confounded, and PC's made into
> Ubersophonten. Something about a vargr in combat armor surviving 7+ hits at
> point blank from a FGMP-14.

Never played it.  Didn't even know they'd created it until I joined the TML.

> T4: The vison returns, but the rules go screwy.

Everything I've read about it convinces me that M:0 is just the TNE without 
the pesky Virus, and with Humaniti still on top of the food chain.  So 
where's the Great Change?

> T4.1: The vision fades, the rules get patched.
> GT: Less Canon, More inconsistancy. Playtesting is a forgotten art.
> Continuity with 20 years of canon thrown out for ease of authors.
> </sarcasm>

Personally, I like the idea of the Rebellion.  Empires are born, grow up, and 
die.  History tells us this.  Nothing lasts forever.  IMNSFBHO, *let* the 3I 
die.  It's all just part of the process.

> 
> Seriously, tho, I have run all editions except GT... but the radical
> changes from canon (ok, really, they are multiple, subtle, and insidious)
> make my actually running GT as written less and less likely as more comes
> out.

I've mostly run CT, with some MT rules thrown on top of it.
 
> TNE I found too damned safe for PC's... you just can't kill them without
> overkill. Plus, I hated the RCES and the changes in the Regency.
> Additionally, I felt that most of the 3I should have resolved into a
> restored 3I... not been wiped out by virus.
> 
> T4: to quote Marc Miller "Yes, it is TNE without virus"..... It lacked the
> grand and wonderous tapestry of the late 3I...

From what I hear, the beginnings of the Imperium were more like 10,000 knife 
fights behind a bar compared to the 3I at its peak.  But then, the historians 
had 1100 years to clean up the mess and make it look pretty and grand...
 
> Besides, my players have threatened to lynch me if I ever suggest TNE or T4
> again.... currently, we're taking a break from SciFi. But I have constant
> requests for MT, which I prefer anyway.

I still haven't figured out how to design a starship using MT rules.  *HOW* 
do you allocate space for a reactor when you don't know how big a reactor 
you'll need?  I *do* appreciate the post-TL15 tech additions to the ruleset, 
even though this kinda tech in *MY* TU is rather hard to find and control.  
<grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:07:09 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

Glenn Goffin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Moreover, many restrictions on private ownership of military-grade
weapons only arose in the last two centuries, when small arms and light
crew-served weapons became efficient at killing large numbers of
people.  (See The Social History of the Machine Gun, a great book that I
read about 20 years ago; I've forgotten the author.)  
>>>>>>>>>>>
True enough. Recall the famous Thompson "Tommy Gun" 
submachinegun, designed for the government to use in the trenches
in WW1, arrived too late for service, produced for civilian use after the
war. The movies gave it a popular image with the public as a gangster's
weapon, but the overwhelming majority in private hands were used by 
security guards of legitimate companies (like the Brinks Armored Car 
company) and other presumably law-abiding citizens. I've seen a 
Thompson ad of the late 1920's that shows a rancher scaring off some
rustlers with a burst of machine-gun fire.

I've heard it argued that the movie-hyped image of the Tommygun as
a gangster's mass-murder weapon is directly responsible for the 
gun-control movement in the United States today, as the Thompson
SMG was one of the first (if not *the* first) personal weapons explicitly
restricted by the federal government.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:28:36 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

From:           	SciFiFan56@aol.com
Date sent:      	Mon, 5 Jul 1999 09:56:48 EDT

> But back to the intent of this posting, I am curious to how other members of 
> this mailing list rate the various versions of Traveller in usability, and 
> relative use versus other versions. AND, if possible please provide 
> explanations for your reasoning. 

I currently play Traveller using the T4 rules with modifications according to
the T5 drafts (especially the "its harder than I thought rule"). For background
setting I use either my own custom non-canon Magellanic Clouds setting
or The Interstellar Wars or the Luriani Protectorate around 100 (which is
sort of M0). I like the M0 setting, it (and the moral questions raised by the
Cleon School of Contact) had huge potential, but most people (and
authors) seemed to get hung up on some sort of dungeon crawl for RoM
technology. Pity, the era has a lot of potential.

However my opinion of the various versions of Traveller.

CT - The heady adolesence and early 20's of Traveller.
I played it for 10 years, I loved it for 10 years, but by the end it was like
a grand old lady; beautiful but very definitely showing her age.

MT - Travellers first signs of maturity and responsibility.
I played it for 5 years, it was okay. Compared to CT's elegant (if
occasionally annoying) simplicity, it was clunky and didn't feel quite right.
I didn't like the rebellion, it didn't seem neccessary. The slide to Hard
Times was pandering to the dominant "Dark Future" theme that was so
popular back then.

TNE - Traveller's last fling and grab for its youth.
Read it, didn't like it, didn't play it. The Virus just plain sucked, a poorly
designed plot device that could have been done so much better (although
it was much much better than what DGP had in mind). If MT was clunky
compared with CT, TNE was (to my taste), heavily overengineered.

T4 - Traveller's midlife crisis and the messy divorce.
Played it, liked it. The rules system has a lot of promise, but the messy
presentation and lack of consitant vision prevented it from achieving its
promise. If it had been properly developed, the setting had a lot going for it.
In the end it was doomed by Imperium Games' failings.

T5 - Traveller's settles into a comfortable maturity
Have the drafts, play it, like it. It builds on T4 and fills in its holes and gaps.
To me, it recaptures the simplicity of CT and gives it a good dose of MT's
maturity. I hope it sees the light of day.

GT - Traveller the swinging middle aged divorcee
To me, if T5 is Traveller settling down into maturity, GT is Traveller going to
nightclubs and dating SYT's half its age in an attempt to turn back time. GT
is presented in the same style of CT, but to me it just seems like trying to go
back to something thats past and should be left there. Don't get me wrong,
GT is well packaged and presented. It recreates CT's feel fairly well, but it
just doesn't work for me.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 02:10:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> <with regard to oxygen and forest fires> :-
>> I seem to recall that it's more a matter of "partial pressure" rather
>> than percentage. So, for example, a world with 6 psi O2 partial
>> pressure out of, say 60 psi *total*, would only have 10% O2 but be a
>> *major* fire hazard. It'd definitely be toxic to humans in short order!

<good info snipped>

> (Leonard, your example above is equivalent to a partial pressure of
> oxygen of ~6/15 atm - I give critically ill patients more than this
> routinely without any untoward effect).

I should have realized that 6 psi wasn't going to be *that* toxic. 

> With regard to an alternative greenhouse gas for the fluorine planet,
> how about sulphur hexafluoride?

Sounds interesting. 

> With regard to competing ecologies (or representatives thereof) :- 
>> The invading
>> organisms are estimated to have something like a billion year (?)
>> advantage over us. 

> This idea seems a little fishy to me (in the absence of genetic
> engineering) ; I'll leave it to 'Peez' Ferguson
> to comment on 'The War Against the Chtorr'.

Oh, it's true there are possible problems with the idea. On the other
hand, if they *do* have a sufficiently similar biology, then that extra
billion years is going to have resulted in some rather tightly
integrated ecologies. Ones that won't have anyplace for our poor terran
"primtive" organisms to compete.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 02:14:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's comments)

In mail you write:

> Ian Ferguson wrote :-
>> Don't forget the important CO2 and pH regulating functions
>>         of the lungs.
>
> I wrote :-
> <with regard to the kidneys> :-
>> as a second level of 
>> control on acid-base balance (carbon dioxide elimination from the 
>> lungs is the primary controller)
>
> With regard to biomes :-
>> Just a thought: is it possible to have a gaseous 'sea?'
>>         Picture a planet with a liquid ocean, a heavy atmosphere at
>>         low elevations, and a distinct lighter atmosphere above a
>>         certain elevation. Comments?
> Yes, in Book 6, Scouts, there was an atmosphere type labelled as 'thin,
> low'. Sounds like an intriguing place for a biologist to visit...

It might also be the "thick, high" atmosphere. Below a certain altitude
either the partial pressure of oxygen, or the presence of some other
atmospheric component makes the air unbreathable without artifical aid.

Examples are Niven's "Plateau" (the planet that has Mount Lookitthat)
and the planet Victoria from an old JTAS (based on "Prisoners of the
Sky" by McCapp.

> Regarding this suggestion :-
>>  How about tissues, the missing link between cells and organs.
> Good one!
>
> I would note that nervous tissue requires relatively rapid conduction
> velocities for it to be useful at all. Pressure wave conduction is a
> viable alternative in creatures from very cold worlds where the overall
> tempo of metabolism would be slower.

Nerve impulses *aren't* all that fast. I seem to recall a figure of
something like 150 feet/sec. The problem with pressure waves is keeping
them restricted to the nerve channels, so as to avoid "crosstalk" in
the brain and other areas where nerves are closely packed.

> Structural tissue : must be insoluble in solvent system. Metal
> deposition is unlikely because reducing salts takes a lot of energy.

I'd love to find a reasonable way for an organism to create carbon
fiber. And buckytubes would be *really* neat, but even less likely. 

I wonder if an organism could find a use for buckyballs? 

Hmmm. Silly thought. A "cell" that uses a modified buckyball as a cell
membrane. It'd need one of the *big* ones though. Not a mere C-60. Say
several hundred or even thousand atom ones.

It'd be the ultimate in "inedibility". Which might make it worth the
cost of the required enzymes.

Reproduction would be harder, as you'd have to expand the "shell" then
go from "football" shape to a sort of "dumbell" and finaly to seperate
spheres. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #821
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, July 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 822



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Off Topic: GURPS Uplift
RE: Battledress
RE: Battledress
RE: Battledress
RE: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
RE: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Xenobiology 101
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: [OT]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_ 
Re: KP with Battle dress (longish)
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Unkind Threats (was RE: Xenobiology 101
Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference
re: Battledress
Re: Xenobiology 101 (long)
Why I don't play GT (was: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference)
Re: Imperial Marines...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:47:47 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

Remember way back when, the US tried to air drop Sheriden light tanks.
Unfortunately the chassis tended to crack open somewhat spoiling the look of
the vehicle. Luckily grav vehicles eventially came along.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:56:27 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Off Topic: GURPS Uplift

Sorry about the off topic, but I figure some of my TML friends (at least I
hope we're all friends) might be able to help me out....

Ever since GT has been released, I've been slowly pulled into the GURPS
world, and found out that there are elements of it that I enjoy. So I went
out and bought C1, C2, Bio-Tech, Robots, and Vehicles...all to improve my GT
experience. Then I hit SJG website, to see what else was available.

GURPS Uplift. Wow.

Sure, its out of print. Bu tI am a huge Uplift-universe fan - and I never
new this thing existed. I would LOVE to buy a copy somewhere. So, my
question is:
    a) Anyone have a copy that they don't want any more?
    b) anyone have a FLGS that has a copy?
    c) or - anyone know of any online places that might have it available?

Before I get flooded with responses, yes, I do know one is for sale on
eBay - I'm just looking around to see if I can find a cheaper one. I'm not
interested in buying it for its collecto's value - I'm simply interestd in
_using_ it (elements of my camapign are shamelessly borrowed from Brin's
works).

Thanks for any info you can give.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tg++(**) tc+ ru+ ge 3i+ jt- st au ls+ kk++ hi+ as+ va+ dr++  |
|       so+ zh+ vi+ da+                                              |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++                          |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:26:15 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

Better make sure your allies have the same IFF gear you do, that it works,
and that your people actually take the time to check - otherwise "It's
allright Joe, we're just getting hit by friendly fire!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:26:12 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

In the marine organisation that appeared in an old issue of the Traveller's
Journal the marine scout unit was equipped with standard air/rafts, try
sitting in one wearing your normal issue battledress.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:26:10 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

We use the F/A18 in Australia. We find them adequate. There range is
pitiful, they normally travel at subsonic speeds to conserve fuel. We bought
them because they had two engines, the F16 was rejected becuase of this, and
we could not afford 70+ F15s.

Battledress should not be taken out by small arms, however it is not
invulnerable, many support weapons could take it out.

In addition anyone in a suit which is in the vicinity of a large explosion
is likely to be killed by the concussion force. The battledress itself could
be totally undamaged, even totally functional. The person inside... I read
somewhere about an autopsy on a gunner pulled from a naval gun turret. The
turret was not hit but was close to an explosion. The autopsy described the
gunners internal organs as undifferentiated - in other words they could not
be told one from another.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:26:09 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

I also own every version of Traveller but run TNE, T4 was so badly received
here that it almost killed Traveller. TNE was what saved it, many here also
playing Twilight 2000 so it was familiar. The fact that all the equipment
from Twilight 2000 and Dark Conspiracy could be used was a plus also. No one
here plays Gurps Traveller either, though it is available.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:26:06 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

I left one paragraph off, it turns out in the novel that the Moties are
running out of materials, metals are in alloys that they cannot work. All
the system contains is Mote Prime, the asteroids, all hollowed out with
everything useable used and a gas giant which the Moties state their
technology can do nothing with. The implication is that their next collapse
they may not be able to rebuild.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:32:05 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, it's true there are possible problems with the idea. On the other
hand, if they *do* have a sufficiently similar biology, then that extra
billion years is going to have resulted in some rather tightly
integrated ecologies. Ones that won't have anyplace for our poor terran
"primtive" organisms to compete.
>>>>>>>>>>
I don't recall the author or the title, but I recall a color bit about an alien
planet with an ecosystem compatible to us. It seems this planet
never provided a very high mutation rate to any of it's denizens.
As a character in the novel put it, competition on the planet was as if
the species were playing poker with all the face cards and jokers
taken out of play - and Earth species got dealt their hands out
of a full deck.

You could plant a handful of Terran wheat in a field, and your problem
wouldn't be the local grasses overwhelming the few seeds - you'd
have to take special steps to keep the wheat from spreading past
the field boundries. I wouldn't see this ecosystem surviving human
colonization much.

Of course, there may be those few tenacious species. Four deuces can 
beat all kinds of ace-high hands...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:39:26 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

At 04:01 PM 7/5/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>I would welcome any suggestions concerning the following:
>
>a.  What is the most effective weapon for each case discussed above?
>
>b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?
>
>c.  What is the largest feasible ablative drop pallet?
>
>d.  How long should it take to assemble a weapon dropped in separate
>pieces (Case #3)?  (Assume four pieces, each massing about 20 kg.  Do
>not include the time it takes for the crewbeings to rendezvous with the
>component parts.)
>

        I would suggest to you that the underlying presumption about metoric
assault is incorrect.  I do not believe there is a requirement for anything
*but* the Marine on the ground;  no squad weapons, no light field-peices.
Specifically, the Marine is carrying an FGMP and wearing battledress.  His
platoon has a battlecomputer terminal and a forward observer skill.
        If the FGMP is too small for the job, he calls in an orbital laser
strike from his drop ship.  The FGMP does 15d damage, and has a burst radius
IIRC.  A USP 3 laser strike from orbit will be needle precise and at least
as effective as a 105mm howie.
        The vehicles would be coming down by attack shuttle only after the
Metoric Assault Troops (MAT?  Welcome MAT?) have got a semi-beaten down LZ
for them.  You can do alot of beating down with FGMP's and ship's lasers.
Oh, and for the "big stuff", use ship-mounted meson bays on it.  Saves you
trying to drop a meson sled down.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:48:20 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

- ----------
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>

> I don't recall the author or the title, but I recall a color bit about an
alien
> planet with an ecosystem compatible to us. It seems this planet
> never provided a very high mutation rate to any of it's denizens.
> As a character in the novel put it, competition on the planet was as if
> the species were playing poker with all the face cards and jokers
> taken out of play - and Earth species got dealt their hands out
> of a full deck.
 
It's a throwaway line about Sanctuary from Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_. 
It proceeds to make a rather odd implication about human evolution, that
the lack of radiation would mean that residents of Sanctuary would somehow
"fall behind" their more heavily irradiated counterparts elsewhere in the
galaxy and suggests that they ought to consider deliberately setting off
nuclear weapons in the atmosphere to increase their background radiation
count and keep up in evolutionary terms.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 07:52:19 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: [OT]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_ 

>I've seen all the episodes so far, and will probably see the rest, but I
>don't think I'll miss it.  It's really a shame because the concept has so
>many possibilities.

We're comparing four episodes of Crusade with five full seasons of B5.
The early episodes of B5 weren't all that great either; in fact, the 
pilot was *terrible*. I stopped watching Babylon 5 partway through
the first season because I didn't think it was going anywhere. Sometime
late in the third season, I started watching it again, and was amazed
at how it improved. (I've since been able to catch the entire series
on reruns.)

Come to think of it, I can say the same thing about early episodes
of Star Trek TNG (most of the first season was pretty bad) and
DS9... Heck, I recently caught a very early episode of The Simpsons
and remarked at how bad the animation looked...

>BTW, something to remember, they only filmed half of the first season
>before TNT canned it.  The only reason they're showing it is to recoup some
>of thier loses.  Who knows the Sci-Fi channel might pick it up if we're
>lucky (would that be lucky?), after all they wanted to get B5, but TNT beat
>them out.  It looks like it's on a low enough budget that it couldn't get
>much worse if it went to the Sci-Fi channel.

If Crusade's ratings on TNT are halfway decent, there is a reasonably good
chance that the Sci-Fi Channel will pick it up. Early reports indicate that
Crusade's ratings *are* not too bad. And up here in Canada, Crusade airs on
Space (our SF cable channel) and is getting *great* ratings...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:00:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: KP with Battle dress (longish)

>So, in the first three stages, we see that the third step require transport
>to supply forward elements, but all elements need logistical support. Since
>Loren has said that all Marines have BD and FMPG's, and cannon states that
>the marines do not have instringic vehicals, how can we do this?
>
>NAVY.
>
>The Imperial Navy would have the infrastructure to do all this. They would
>proberby have a Battle Dress Tender pinnace or ship's boat, with extra
>armour and possably support weapons (missiles, heavy fusion beams and nukes
>bigger than tactical size). They would allow support of forward troops
>(along with fighter support), be able to recharge power cells and provide
>field rations for extended piriods on the field.
>
>These Tenders would also allow the rotation of troops back to non combat
>areas, and allow better reallocation of troops in areas that need to be
>reinforced etc. The Tender  can still kick ass if needed. Treat the Tender
>as a cross from AMTRACKS, Battallion HQ and Evac transport.

May I suggest the Barlax II or Dumont (from 101 Starships)?

Barlax II-class Assault Lander (GTL12)

Meteoric assaults are flashy and have caught the public's attention, but
most Marine landings use purpose-built assault craft like the Barlax II, a
refit of the venerable Barlax assault lander. Heavily armoured and equipped
with a formidable pair of plasma guns, the Barlax II can safely deliver a
reinforced platoon to a hot landing zone, then support them until the rest
of the regiment arrives. Upgraded drives and electronics allow it to carry
more armour and still boast over three times the acceleration of the
original class.

Crew: pilot, gunner
80-ton SL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, Turret with 2 fusion guns, Basic stealth,
Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 50 Maneuver, 4 Passenger Couches
(holds 48 people), 8 cargo
Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 32000 km, AESA 112000 km, Radscanner 3200 km
2 Fusion Guns: Exp, Acc 29, Dmg 6dx411, 1/2D Rng 5920 km, MxRng 17600 km
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 890.7 tonnes, LMass 927.0 tonnes, Cost MCr 33.2, HP 13200
Performance: Accel 4.9 G (5.1 G empty, 4.2 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
10445 km/h


Dumont-class Assault Lander (GTL12)

A small landing cutter designed to deliver a heavily-equipped platoon under
fire, the Dumont class is popular with mercenary units. Heavy armour,
impressive fire support capability, and good acceleration make it ideal for
commando and striker missions.

Crew: pilot, gunner
40-ton SL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, Turret with 2 fusion guns, Hardened Cockpit,
20 Maneuver, 3 Passenger Couches (holds 36 people), 7 cargo
Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 32000 km, AESA 112000 km, Radscanner 3200 km
2 Fusion Guns: Exp, Acc 29, Dmg 6dx411, 1/2D Rng 5920 km, MxRng 17600 km
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 547.5 tonnes, LMass 579.2 tonnes, Cost MCr 19.7, HP 8700
Performance: Accel 3.1 G (3.3 G empty, 2.6 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
8137 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 07:59:59 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

>GT - Traveller the swinging middle aged divorcee
>To me, if T5 is Traveller settling down into maturity, GT is Traveller
going to
>nightclubs and dating SYT's half its age in an attempt to turn back time. GT
>is presented in the same style of CT, but to me it just seems like trying
to go
>back to something thats past and should be left there. Don't get me wrong,
>GT is well packaged and presented. It recreates CT's feel fairly well, but it
>just doesn't work for me.

It seems to me that there is a correlation when it comes to the reaction
to GURPS Traveller -- the people who like GT are those who were already
fans of the GURPS system to begin with (myself included), while those whose
reaction to GT is less than favourable are those who are not overly
familiar with GURPS. (Example: the thread that started with someone 
misinterpreting a suggested possible disadvantage for a Marine, thinking
that it was a mandatory disad...)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:59:30 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

At 09:45 PM 7/5/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>> >b.  What is the largest feasible drop capsule?
>> 
>>   GW preferred 10-man, so they could drop a full squad of Space Marines (two
>> stands) or a pair of Dreadnoughts :)
>
>I can live with that, as the limit for a heavy-drop capsule.  Based on a
>10x capsule, and assuming that said capsule has a more-or-less
>cylindrical shape, I can devise the largest possible weapon that can fit
>in such a canister.  Does anyone else have other ideas on this subject?
>
>Also, what might be the limit for vehicle ablative drop pallets, in both
>volume and mass?  _Could_ one drop a Sheridan-equivalent from orbit?
>

        Contra-grav, and retro-rockets will buy you a whole lotta leeway on
dropping something.  Hell, we "dropped" and then repeatedly *bounced* a
probe on Mars last year.  Orbit ought to be *simple* by the time you figure
it is safe to use one-man disposable pods as a viable way to attack a planet.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:03:23 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Unkind Threats (was RE: Xenobiology 101

At 01:37 PM 7/6/1999 +1000, you wrote:
>Robert O'Connor
>Medico, Gamer
>
>P.S. All you other TMLers :- if you would like this stuff to move off
>list, say so!!
>
        Don't you *dare*.  This stuff is *great*.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress...
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:06:08 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference

Glenn St-Germaine wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
(Example: the thread that started with someone 
misinterpreting a suggested possible disadvantage for a Marine, thinking
that it was a mandatory disad...)
>>>>>>>>>>
To be fair, Doug did seem to present his vision of Marines as people
who had never heard a gunshot without hearing it through a suit of
Battledress. He presented the suggested possible disad as a natural
follow-up idea to his vision, and I think it was the vision itself that was
rubbing people the wrong way.

Granted, we did get a little silly with the idea of the Marines Who Wear
Girly (Battle) Dresses Into Combat... <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:12:30 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Battledress

>Terry again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>And as for leaping tall buildings at a single bound. With contra-grav belts
>available at GTL12, any fighting force that doesn't equip its troops with
>flight capability, is just plain negligent. Might as well not even send they
>out with NBC capability. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Lack of NBC equipment will get you killed. A CG belt will*also* get you
>killed. A point defense system even minimally capable of knocking down a 
>GTL-12 missile will only miss a man in a GTL-12 CG belt if the computer fire 
>control has an emotion simulator chip and feels pity for the poor grunt.

        ROTFLAMO!

        My co-workers are all looking at me funny, I am laughing so hard I
am crying....


	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:19:02 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (long)

	First and foremost, my appologies to the list for this post.
	I started to respond directly to Leonard, but then decided 
	that my appology to him should be public. I will restrict any 
	future posts of this type to direct e-mail, unless Leonard asks
	otherwise (in which case I will cease altogether). Thank you
	for your patience.


Leonard Erickson writes:
"Look back at your own quoted response. It dealt with "males 
aren't needed FOR PARTHOGENSIS" (emphasis added). My comment, 
quoted above dealt with parthogensis not being able to produce 
offspring with chromosomes the mother didn't have! (ie being 
able to produce males). It turned out that reptiles don't have 
the XY/XX differentiation. I was going from what I knew about 
mammals where, where parthogenesis can *only* produce females."

"So I was pointing out (incorrectly as it turned out) that 
parthogensis *couldn't* be what was happening because the 
offspring were male. Not that males were needed for parthogensis."

Like I said, different problems. 

So your reply, "correcting" something I had neither said, nor 
implied was more than a little annoying."

	I have managed to find the original post, and I finally see
	what it is you were trying to say. I appologize for not
	understanding you, and I'm sorry that it has led to so much 
	apparent hostility. When I read that post, I incorrectly
	took your comments to refer to the immediately preceding
	quoted text:

"Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:46:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Probably not generalized, but just last night I saw a show on TLC
> regarding a herpetologist who was quite surprised when his grown,
> handraised female rattlesnake gave birth to a male offspring. Uhh, did I
> mention that the snake in question had lived its entire life in a glass
> aquarium in his lab out of contact with other snakes? They're waiting
> for the male to reach sexual maturity to see if it is fertile. If so,
> this has BIG implications for rattlesnake population studies...
>
> I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all reptiles, but
> I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis _isn't_ more widespread in
> reptile populations that we currently think...they're not exactly the
> most well-studied critters on the planet...

Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce *female*
offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother doesn't have
any Y chromosomes). 

- - -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort"

	As I was looking at the last paragraph, I thought that you 
	commenting on the posibility of parthenogenesis being wide-
	spread in reptiles. Once again, I am taking responsibility 
	for this misunderstanding.

"I say A, your reply tends to be "but B is wrong". See the problem?
Like I said, you are refuting points I never made."

	This is because I though that you said B, and was not 
	corrected.

"Then give me the respect of actually looking at what I *said* and
replying to *that*, not to some side issue."

	I have done my best to do so.

"Above, we have me stating that "you can't get males via parthogenesis"
and you replying "parthogenesis doesn't require males". in our other
big "debate" I keep talking about the limits on exoskeletal creatures
that "breathe" via spiracles (or "trachea" as you started calling
them). You keep dragging in stuff like book lungs. Or I talk about
size without actually *specifying* "maximum 'minimum distance to
surface'" in that post though I'd been quite specific about it in
previous posts, and you go on about length, mass, and wingspan, none of
which relate to the sort of "size" I'd already established that we were
talking about."

	As I have tried to explain, spiracles are the openings in the
	cuticle that lead into the trachea. This is not something that
	I made up, I am trying to share such knowledge of entomology
	as I have. Book lungs are the site of gas exchange in spiders.
	I mentioned them because you had added spiders to the 
	discussion. I brought up various measures of size because I
	wasn't sure which one you meant. Length is important if gas
	exchange only takes place through specific locations. For 
	example, the tissues in an insect's legs must get their O2
	(eventually) through the spiracles in its thorax.

"I'd *love* to get better data on stuff from someone who knows. I'm
glad to have found out that the "female offspring only due to lack of Y
chromosome in mother" limit only applies to mammals, for instance.

I'm not an expert. Just someone who has read widely and is good at
retaining the gist of it, if not always the specific details. "Wide but
shallow" you might say. 

But I'm getting *really* tired of "corrections" that have little or
nothing to do with what I'm talking about."

	I am doing my best, but I cannot always tell what you are 
	talking about. This is just as much my fault as yours, but
	it remains true.

"In short, respect *me* enough to make sure you understand the context
before replying. That includes not forcing me to repeat in great detail
things that were established in previous posts."

	I don't need "great detail," just enough to know where you
	are coming from.

"As I said in the beginning on the "size of 'insects'" bit. My reading
says that there's a limit of about an inch for the distance to the
surface for spiracle based respiration. I'd welcome a better figure, or
even range of figures."

	This is just what I have been trying to give you. We do not
	know what the limits are, and I have been trying to give you
	a sense of that.

"But why should I have to keep repeating things like "maximum 'minimum
distance to surface'" when I've already stated (many times) that this
is what I meant by "size". Or go thru the "no, I'm *not* talking about
book lungs" bit every post when that *too* has been stated several
times."

	Because I could not think of any reason to expect that a spider
	of a given weight had a lower "maximum, minimum distance to
	surface" than an insect of the same weight, I was looking for 
	clarification. As you were talking about spiders, you were
	talking about book lungs, whether you knew it or not. Rather
	than ask about it, you chose to complain about it.

"I am *not* writing journal articles. I'm carrying on a *casual*
discourse, and as such I have every right to expect the other
participants to rember what parameters were established in previous
*recent* messages.

	Again, I am doing my best to do so, and I am sincerely sorry
	to have set off this series of hostile posts.

"You could be a great resource. But not if I have to spell every single
detail out in every post. Like I said, *you* are responsible for
remembering the context established previously. That means remembering
how things were "defined" only a message or two back, and responding
based on *that*, not on assuming that the words are now being used
differently."

	I never made any such assumption. I have always tried to
	respond in good faith.

"If you can't, I'm going to have to figure out how to filter out your
posts, simply because there aren't enough hours in a day to
re-establish the context with every message. Nor is there any reason to
subject myself to a constant barrage of well-meaning but off-target
"corrections". I don't need the annoyance."

	Your choice, of course.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:26:23 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Why I don't play GT (was: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Preference)

Date sent:      	Tue, 06 Jul 1999 07:59:59 -0600
From:           	cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

> >GT - Traveller the swinging middle aged divorcee
> >To me, if T5 is Traveller settling down into maturity, GT is Traveller
> going to
> >nightclubs and dating SYT's half its age in an attempt to turn back time. GT
> >is presented in the same style of CT, but to me it just seems like trying
> to go
> >back to something thats past and should be left there. Don't get me wrong,
> >GT is well packaged and presented. It recreates CT's feel fairly well, but it
> >just doesn't work for me.

> It seems to me that there is a correlation when it comes to the reaction
> to GURPS Traveller -- the people who like GT are those who were already
> fans of the GURPS system to begin with (myself included), while those whose
> reaction to GT is less than favourable are those who are not overly
> familiar with GURPS. (Example: the thread that started with someone 
> misinterpreting a suggested possible disadvantage for a Marine, thinking
> that it was a mandatory disad...)

Its not that I'm unfamiliar with GURPS. I am reasonably familiar and
comfortable with the system (I just don't play it because its not to my own
personal tastes). My "problem" with GT, the reason I don't play it using a
different rule set is that theres something too much like CT for me. Its like
the whole feel and style is too much of a reproduction of CT for me.

Now, like I said, I loved playing CT back in the 70's and 80's. It was right up
there with RuneQuest as one of my two favourite RPGs. But a few months
ago I tried to play CT again. It just didn't feel right anymore. I guess I've
moved past CT and it no longer suits me. Thats the problem I have with GT,
it just isn't right for me. Its like when I listen to my old Sex Pistol or Clash
records now, its fine for a brief bit of nostalga, but it just doesn't fit me
anymore.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:27:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

> 1.  Everyone is judging this based on a *single* proposed disad that
> would
> be *available*, not mandatory for Marine characters.  

I will wait for it to reach playtest then. I do not want to 
judge your ideas further with only the bits I dislike. I would 
rather comment on the whole. The other is doing you a dis-service.
 
> 6.  Like any other game book, if you don't like what I write, ignore
> it!
> The game police are not going to come to your door if I see print and
> you
> decide that the Imperial Marines are actually a dance troupe who use
> interpretive ballet to shame their foes into surrendering.

I would like to see that!

No matter my comments, I appreaciate the hard work you are going to to
write this.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #822
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, July 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 823



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Why I don't play GT (was: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Prefe...
Re: Xenobiology 101
Silly???
Re: Why I don't play GT
re: Battledress
Re: Versions
RE: Xenobiology 101
RE: The War Against the Chtorr
Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
RE: Battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: [OT]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)
Re: Battledress
RE: Battledress
OT: Personal Request
Re: Battledress
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Versions
Re: Battledress
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Versions
re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
Re: Battledress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:32:20 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT (was: Traveller mail lists AND Query on Version Prefe...

In a message dated 7/6/99 10:28:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< 
 Now, like I said, I loved playing CT back in the 70's and 80's. It was right 
up
 there with RuneQuest as one of my two favourite RPGs. But a few months
 ago I tried to play CT again. It just didn't feel right anymore. I guess I've
 moved past CT and it no longer suits me. Thats the problem I have with GT,
 it just isn't right for me. Its like when I listen to my old Sex Pistol or 
Clash
 records now, its fine for a brief bit of nostalga, but it just doesn't fit me
 anymore.
 
  >>

If I may ask, what do you play now if you still do game? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:38:46 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"Alas, the only "skeletal" materials terran life has come up with 
are calcium salts (shell, bone, etc), "pure" collagen or cellulose
(sponges, trees) or silica."
<snipped>

	If I may add one: chitin. The insect exoskeleton is made up
	of chains of a polysaccharide (chitin) imbedded in a protein
	matrix.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:48:34 +0100 
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: Silly???

Walt Smith said:

"Granted, we did get a little silly with the idea of the Marines Who Wear
Girly (Battle) Dresses Into Combat... <G>"

Not at all silly. If they can be programmed for any colouration for
camoflage, how long will it be before we have pastel Gingham BD so they
don't stand out when storming Laura Ashley shops?

Ash

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:56:23 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT

From:           	SciFiFan56@aol.com
Date sent:      	Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:32:20 EDT

> In a message dated 7/6/99 10:28:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:
>  Now, like I said, I loved playing CT back in the 70's and 80's. It was right 
> up
>  there with RuneQuest as one of my two favourite RPGs. But a few months
>  ago I tried to play CT again. It just didn't feel right anymore. I guess I've
>  moved past CT and it no longer suits me. Thats the problem I have with GT,
>  it just isn't right for me. Its like when I listen to my old Sex Pistol or 
> Clash
>  records now, its fine for a brief bit of nostalga, but it just doesn't fit me
>  anymore.
 
> If I may ask, what do you play now if you still do game? 

I still game. Now I play T4 (with the modifications from the T5 drafts) for
my SF games and CoC/RQ3 for most everything else. I use T4/5 because
for me it managed to capture just the right amount of CT's feel while still
managing to feel different.

(I have also been known to occassionally gather together with some
friends from my dim past and play AD&D at secret locations when we're
sure nobody's looking. But that comes under the nostalga heading.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:03:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: re: Battledress

On 07/05/99 23:37:25 you wrote:
>
>> From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>> Subject: re: Battledress
>> 
>> Walter Smith wrote:
>> >Small Arm: a standard weapon carried by an infantry trooper. There 
is
>[deletion]
>> 
>> Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper". Except in the 
insanity
>> of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly 
available to
>> just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not 
normally
>> have access to the same weapons available to infantry.
>
>Moreover, almost four hundred years prior, the British yeomen
>at Agincourt roundly defeated the pride of the French war machine 
(i.e.,
>heavily armored knights) with their own longbows, which they used at
>home to bring down game.  So that yeoman infantry owned personal weapons
>that proved superior to the regular French cavalry. 

	It's worth remembering that all males above 14 years of age were 
required by law to practice with the long bow one day a week.  In this 
case, it wasn't a weapon they *happened* to be proficient with it was 
one they were *required* to be proficient with.  More akin to the Swiss 
military putting an assault rifle in people's homes than the US's 
private gun ownership.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:34:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Versions

On 07/06/99 05:32:31 William F. Hostman wrote:
>Seriously, tho, I have run all editions except GT... but the radical
>changes from canon (ok, really, they are multiple, subtle, and  insidious)
>make my actually running GT as written less and less likely as more comes
>out.

	I'm curious.  Could you give some examples (other than Commando BD)?


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:10:34 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101

(looking for the biggest terrestrial organisms)
Walter Smith writes:
"I'll guess...trees?"

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Well, there are the redwoods. And then there are those multi-
ton fungi they discovered a few years back."

David J. Golden writes:
"In-laws aside, I believe the "Quaking Aspen" spattered all 
over Colorado mountains scores fairly high on the "size" chart. 
No, not that dinky little tree. The entire single organism that 
appears to *you* to be a huge grove of "dinky little trees," 
but is in fact all part of the same organism."

Eris Reddoch writes:
"Anyone mentioned coral formations yet?"

	Yes, yes, yes, and, um, coral are colonial and aquatic, but
	a GM could realy do something with that...
	Thanks all!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:15:48 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: The War Against the Chtorr

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"This idea seems a little fishy to me (in the absence of genetic
engineering) ; I'll leave it to 'Peez' Ferguson to comment on 
'The War Against the Chtorr'."

	I'm afraid that I haven't read that one. What was it about?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:13:37 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (potential Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Steven Hudson writes:
"Or it would imply that the Masters are letting their Warriors 
breed at the expense of non-essential personnel; ideally the 
Warriors will be culled by the conflict to come, and the new 
lands will support expansion of the leadership bloodline and 
their followers*."
<snipped>

	My memory of TMIGE is pretty vague, but isn't the birth
	rate of all Motie races pretty much out of their
	control? Perhaps the warriors have a higher rate than the 
	others  all the time?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:57:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Black ICE wrote:

> Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> The Wiesel is a fine airborne [lightly] armored support vehicle
> (although, I must admit, I'm quite partial to the M551-seires
> Sheridan).  In fact, in a 1990s socio-politico-economic simulation, I
> specified the Wiesel as a support vehicle for my airborne forces. 
> However, when converting to Traveller, one must ask not only what are
> the capabilities of the light vehicles in question, but also how will
> the fire support vehicles get into position to support me?  Can my fire
> support vehicle hit dirt via meteroric assault, or must I wait until the
> landing craft touch down to get my mobile heavy weapon support?
> > 
> >   GW preferred 10-man, so they could drop a full squad of Space Marines (two
> > stands) or a pair of Dreadnoughts :)
> 
> I can live with that, as the limit for a heavy-drop capsule.  Based on a
> 10x capsule, and assuming that said capsule has a more-or-less
> cylindrical shape, I can devise the largest possible weapon that can fit
> in such a canister.  Does anyone else have other ideas on this subject?
> 
> Also, what might be the limit for vehicle ablative drop pallets, in both
> volume and mass?  _Could_ one drop a Sheridan-equivalent from orbit?
>

The main problem here is that the canonical Traveller drop capsule is a
one-soldier unit, big enough basically for a trooper and their most
elementary gear. Outsize drop capsule = BIG STINKY TARGET for the ground
defenders. Remember that drop capsule troops have a period of
vulnerability from launch until landing. Following Heinlein's model in
STARSHIP TROOPERS, STRIKER assault capsules have extensive ECM systems to
gum up defenders' targeting, and also generate chaff and have armor, and
high-survivability capsules also launch several dummy capsules and are
more heavily armored. Capsules also "jink" and maneuver to avoid being
tracked as ballistic objects. The bigger and heavier the capsule, the
bigger a target it is when dropped as a ballistic object. Capsules are
cheaper than dedicated dropships, and more survivable in the long run (50
tiny, weaving capsules with 250 tiny, weaving dummy capsules and a cloud
of chaff are MUCH harder to kill off than one 50-soldier modular cutter,
and cost far less.)

Battledress troopers are their own vehicles, their own heavy weapons. Want
direct-fire plasma/fusion weapons? It's the standard-issue shoulder arm.
Want indirect-fire support? Call for ortillery from the main ship, call in
the squad RAM Auto-GL gunner, or break out a shoulder-fired tac/drone
missile. Want armor? You're wearing it. Want to move fast? Add a grav belt
and stick to NOE or those AA batteries that shot at you on the way down
will be your new friends. Integral vehicles, separate heavy weapons and
other frippery are redundant to battledress troops. They provide a "shock"
force, which can't maintain a sustained long-term assault, but they pave
the way for grav-based vehicles and larger landing craft (carrying
non-battledress troops) to land. They don't need their support until a
landing zone and base of operations has been secured.

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Antony Farrell wrote:

> In the marine organisation that appeared in an old issue of the Traveller's
> Journal the marine scout unit was equipped with standard air/rafts, try
> sitting in one wearing your normal issue battledress.
> 
That always seemed like a cop-out. A scout/recon unit should have
something a bit more mobile than an air/raft: more like a speeder in
performance. Since a speeder is also covered, one would assume that the
vehicle's crew would be unarmored vehicle crewmen rather than
battledress-armored troopers. It seems more like laziness on the part of
the person writing the article: just because 1980's scout/recon troops
used a jeep, and the air/raft is a Traveller "jeep" equivalent doesn't
mean that it's the right tool for Traveller scouts.  Grav-belt equipped
troops with battledress (and some extra sensors and a laser carbine for
ortillery target designation) sounds better for TL-15 scout units, with
perhaps a few fast speeders for rapid movement and getting out of Dodge
before their grav tanks can get you...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Terry Carlino writes:
>> Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper". Except in the insanity
> of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly available to
> just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not normally
> have access to the same weapons available to infantry.

Um...mostly false in most parts of the world.  While there were areas which
restricted possession of weapons, by in large in most parts of the world if you
could afford military weapons, you could have them.  The problem is that
military hardware tends to be _expensive_ -- and thus, if you had enough money
for it, you were probably of a high enough status to own it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Terry Carlino writes:
>> Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper". Except in the insanity
> of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly available to
> just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not normally
> have access to the same weapons available to infantry.

Um...mostly false in most parts of the world.  While there were areas which
restricted possession of weapons, by in large in most parts of the world if you
could afford military weapons, you could have them.  The problem is that
military hardware tends to be _expensive_ -- and thus, if you had enough money
for it, you were probably of a high enough status to own it.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:22:52 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [OT]:  The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

cos 90 wrote:

> We're comparing four episodes of Crusade with five full seasons of B5.
> The early episodes of B5 weren't all that great either; in fact, the
> pilot was *terrible*.



> Come to think of it, I can say the same thing about early episodes
> of Star Trek TNG (most of the first season was pretty bad) and
> DS9... Heck, I recently caught a very early episode of The Simpsons
> and remarked at how bad the animation looked...

As much as I think Crusade sucks...this guy has a point...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Radiation belts (was Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen)

Leonard Erickson writes:
> >
> > As long as it has a strong enough field to deflect protons, the fact
> > that it deflects opposite charges in opposite directions isn't a big
> > problem.
> 
> There are *electrons* in there too. There have to be. And they'll get
> deflected *towards* you. Oops.

Um...learn your physics.  If you take a ship with a strong magnetic field
aligned along its axis, and you hit it with charged particles, the protons will
curve one way, the electrons will curve the other way -- but _neither_
direction is towards the ship.

> > Yes, but in a fairly predictable manner.  Usable as a low-tech
> > 'reactionless' thruster, if you want.
> 
> You've got two problems. First, it'll try to flip the station until the
> field is oriented counter to the planet's field. And once it's
> accomplished *that*, it'll start *accelerating*.

This is why you need to give it computerized control.
> 
> You see, if you are using it for shielding in a radiation belt it has
> to be on *all* the time. That makes it the same as having a thruster
> that is *always* on, and always pointing in the *same* direction.

Its only always pointing in the same direction if you're using an immovable
magnet, which presumably you're smart enough not to do.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:45:26 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > >From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
> >
> >   The war against Yugoslavia was a meaningful model of the battlefields in
> > which shoulder-launched SAM's were supposed to help defend ground forces?
> >
> >   FWIW, IIRC, the main things that Iran cost you was a few choppers and your
> > shot at the World Cup.
>
> Strange...
>
> Last time I remember us tryin to invade Iran was back a bit before Regan took
> office.  That would put it back, what, 20 years?  '79ish?

Well, it cost the US a lot of the soldiers on those helicopters, too.
As well as the prolonged captivity of the hostages.  They were taken hostage
in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
after Reagan was inaugerated.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:48:23 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

Antony Farrell wrote:

>In the marine organisation that appeared in an old issue of the Traveller's
>Journal the marine scout unit was equipped with standard air/rafts, try
>sitting in one wearing your normal issue battledress.

There are a lot of handwaves for this one.  What was the time frame for this
outfitting? 1100...1090? What was their mission? No one ever said that the
Marines were welded inside their battledress.

Let's not forget the technology advancement factor. The Imperium is very
conservative and technological innovation moves at the speed of snails on
Valium. But I would expect that during a war some spurts of technological
innovation are possible, especially in the manner of ironmongery, i.e.
weapons systems, sensors, armor, powersuits, etc.

Personally IMTU I don't intend to have military actions operate at the same
level of technology as can be purchased by a group of Free Traders, who are
just making their ship payments.

It's called roleplaying. Just because high powered battlesuit exist doesn't
mean that everyone's got them. When I run a game set in the present my
players might want a AK-47 to carry through JFK so they have enough
firepower to take out the baddies. But I'm not going to let them through the
metal detector with one. Same thing.  Will a munchkin player want Marine
Commando Battledress? Sure. Will I give it to him(her)? Probably not. But if
I do, you can bet that if they try to wear it at some civilian starport a
dozen Marines in similar dress will let them know that's a no-no. And if
they try to wear it in the bush against an opposition force they'll suddenly
find that the bad guy has a surplus grav tank or a big can opener.

Basically I reserve the heavy duty military equipment for a military
campaign.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:12:36 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: OT: Personal Request

I need an agent in or near Cincinnati Ohio to do me a personal favor and
earn my undying gratitude. Please email me at gdwgames@aol.com

An ehthusiasm for Japanese quisine will prove helpful.



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:16:02 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Well, it cost the US a lot of the soldiers on those helicopters, too.
>As well as the prolonged captivity of the hostages

Actually, it was a transport plane and one helicopter that collided at the Desert One site.
A large number of Delta troopers were burned in the plane after the chopper hit it.
The worst part is that the disaster struck after the mission had been aborted.
The troops were loading back on the planes to return to Egypt.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

>.  They were taken hostage
>in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
>after Reagan was inaugerated.
>
>--
>Bloo
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:40:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

>Robert O'Connor writes:
><snipped>
>"The largest dinosaurs probably represent the upper bound on
>size for terrestrial life. Bone is only so strong - it's only
>calcium salts after all!"
>
>	Please forgive me for harping on this, but this is far
>	from sure. Not so long ago, it was suggested that the
>	largest dinosaurs must have lived in the water, because
>	they could not possible have supported their great bulks
>	on land. It is now known that they were fully terrestrial.
>	With the kind of bone that we have, and the conditions of
>	Terra, it may well be that the dinosaurs were near or at
>	the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
>	sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
>	existed. Anyone know what they are called?
>
>Peez

Redwoods? And isn't there an extremely large fungus somewhere in the
eastern USA?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:40:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Versions

>I still haven't figured out how to design a starship using MT rules.  *HOW*
>do you allocate space for a reactor when you don't know how big a reactor
>you'll need?  I *do* appreciate the post-TL15 tech additions to the ruleset,
>even though this kinda tech in *MY* TU is rather hard to find and control.
><grin>
>
>Keven

Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
to have a rabid fear of. :-/

Basically, you estimate how much power you'll need, put in that reactor,
and then after the ship is finished go back and adjust as necessary. You'll
have to keep tweaking a few times (iterations), but then you'd have to do
that anyway for various other design elements. (At least, you'll need to
tweak if you want an optimized design.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:16:02 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Well, it cost the US a lot of the soldiers on those helicopters, too.
>As well as the prolonged captivity of the hostages

Actually, it was a transport plane and one helicopter that collided at the
Desert One site.
A large number of Delta troopers were burned in the plane after the chopper
hit it.
The worst part is that the disaster struck after the mission had been
aborted.
The troops were loading back on the planes to return to Egypt.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

>.  They were taken hostage
>in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few
minutes
>after Reagan was inaugerated.
>
>--
>Bloo
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:37:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Robert Prior writes:
> >     the limit, but we do not know. We do know that certain
> >     sedentary terrestrial organisms larger than dinosaurs have
> >     existed. Anyone know what they are called?
> >
> >Peez
> 
> Redwoods? And isn't there an extremely large fungus somewhere in the
> eastern USA?

Heh.  Calling the fungus a single organism is somewhat stretching it (and in
any case, its mostly underground, so it isn't really a land lifeform).  Its
nowhere near the maximum size for a plant in any case -- there's nothing
physically preventing a plant or plant-like organism which is, say, a meter
thick and covers a million square kilometers, weighing around a trillion tons. 
Its evolutionarily unlikely, however.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 14:45:40 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Versions

At 01:40 PM 7/6/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>I still haven't figured out how to design a starship using MT rules.  *HOW*
>>do you allocate space for a reactor when you don't know how big a reactor
>>you'll need?  I *do* appreciate the post-TL15 tech additions to the ruleset,
>>even though this kinda tech in *MY* TU is rather hard to find and control.
>><grin>
>>
>>Keven
>
>Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
>to have a rabid fear of. :-/
>
>Basically, you estimate how much power you'll need, put in that reactor,
>and then after the ship is finished go back and adjust as necessary. You'll
>have to keep tweaking a few times (iterations), but then you'd have to do
>that anyway for various other design elements. (At least, you'll need to
>tweak if you want an optimized design.)
>

        In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
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		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
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	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:54:09 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

Jetrock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Remember that drop capsule troops have a period of
vulnerability from launch until landing. Following Heinlein's model in
STARSHIP TROOPERS, STRIKER assault capsules have extensive ECM systems to
gum up defenders' targeting,
>>>>>>>>>>
In CT Adventure 1, _Kinuniuir_(sp?), it is noted that if the drop capsules
are properly deployed, they can't even be easily detected from the
launching ship *itself*.

This statement may be a bit iffy, especially in light of the sensor
capability discussions from this list, but imagine the implications
of ECM technology if it were true.

Walt Smith

"Welcome MAT"...I like it, I like it!! :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:08:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Steve Daniels wrote:

> 
> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> >
> > Strange...
> >
> > Last time I remember us tryin to invade Iran was back a bit before Regan took
> > office.  That would put it back, what, 20 years?  '79ish?
> 
> Well, it cost the US a lot of the soldiers on those helicopters, too.
> As well as the prolonged captivity of the hostages.  They were taken hostage
> in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
> after Reagan was inaugerated.
> 
And all it cost was a few million bucks' worth of TOW and HAWK missiles,
spare F-14 parts, and a chocolate cake...

ObTrav: Perhaps a Traveller adventure involving cover-up  of a
prisoner-exchange plot during the Fifth Frontier War, between the
Imperium, seeking the freedom of captured nobles, and the Zhodani,
seeking examples of advanced Imperial weapons technology for their
examination? How far would the Imperium go to cover up such an
incident--and how much would an interested journalist/minor Imperial power
faction/megacorp/etc. pay the adventurers to turn up evidence of such a
transaction--or to cover it up? Perhaps a fanatically patriotic Imperial
Marines lieutenant-colonel, Olivaari Spinward, would make an interesting
NPC, either hounding the characters to abandon their pursuit of the truth,
or a great aid in helping them cover it up...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #823
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, July 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 824



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines...
Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Poser Software
re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
Even more dangerous...
Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Re: Batledress, Hoorah! 
Re: Battledress
Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Re: Silly???
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
More battledress
Fellbane-class Orbital Defense Fighter (GTL9)
Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Re: Battledress
Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Re: Versions
Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)
Re: More battledress
Re: Battledress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:16:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>> 6.  Like any other game book, if you don't like what I write, ignore it!
>> The game police are not going to come to your door if I see print and you
>> decide that the Imperial Marines are actually a dance troupe who use
>> interpretive ballet to shame their foes into surrendering.
>
>I would like to see that!
>
>No matter my comments, I appreaciate the hard work you are going to to
>write this.
>
>Terry

You should check out "Hivers & Ithklur" then.  And when you finish the
writeup for the Emperor's Own Ithklur Assault Ballet Troupe, send a copy to
The Silly Era so we can all enjoy it.

<Mental picture of an Imperial tanker watching an Ithklur sidle up to his
grav tank en pointe, gracefully lift it into the air, and then...>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:16:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

>"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
>
>> > >From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>> >
>> >   The war against Yugoslavia was a meaningful model of the battlefields in
>> > which shoulder-launched SAM's were supposed to help defend ground forces?
>> >
>> >   FWIW, IIRC, the main things that Iran cost you was a few choppers
>>and your
>> > shot at the World Cup.
>>
>> Strange...
>>
>> Last time I remember us tryin to invade Iran was back a bit before Regan
>>took
>> office.  That would put it back, what, 20 years?  '79ish?
>
>Well, it cost the US a lot of the soldiers on those helicopters, too.
>As well as the prolonged captivity of the hostages.  They were taken hostage
>in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
>after Reagan was inaugerated.
>
>--
>Bloo

Wasn't there a scandal about delaying the release until after the
inaugeration, so that Reagan would get the public credit rather than Carter?

ObTrav: The players are a special forces unit (appropriate to YTU), sent on
a hostage rescue mission. After they have started the first phase of their
carefully scheduled operation, they get word that their expected support
will be delayed a few hours/days (select appropriate period) so that the
new CO (younger son of an important noble) can get the credit.

Depending on how you want to play this, the new CO may have ordered this,
strongly hinted that it would be a desired outcome (leaving his staff to do
the dirty work), or be blissfully ignorant of the whole thing (in which
case his aide-de-camp is responsible). Or to be really twisted, this is the
outgoing CO trying to set up the incoming CO as a publicity-seeking
incompetent, so that the old chap can retain his command after the fiasco
comes to light.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:16:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Poser Software

IIRC, someone here has Poser.  Could that individual please contact me
offlist for a few Traveller-related questions?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:19:06 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

At 01:54 PM 7/6/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Walt Smith
>
>"Welcome MAT"...I like it, I like it!! :)
>
        "Roll out the Welcome MAT for the isurgents...."
        Commander James Wrigley, Drop Master, _Andrew Young_

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Walter Smith wrote:

> Jetrock wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Remember that drop capsule troops have a period of
> vulnerability from launch until landing. Following Heinlein's model in
> STARSHIP TROOPERS, STRIKER assault capsules have extensive ECM systems to
> gum up defenders' targeting,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> In CT Adventure 1, _Kinuniuir_(sp?), it is noted that if the drop capsules
> are properly deployed, they can't even be easily detected from the
> launching ship *itself*.
> 
> This statement may be a bit iffy, especially in light of the sensor
> capability discussions from this list, but imagine the implications
> of ECM technology if it were true.
> 
Hm. _Kinunir_ is one of the gaping holes in my collection of original
Traveller digest-sized stuff (dammit!) so I haven't read that particular
description (now I need to go haunt the misc.games.frp.marketplace
newsgroup for one o' those...) My information came from STRIKER Book 2,
which specifies three types of drop capsules: The basic capsule (Cr2000),
which is just the re-entry package, no armor, no ECM, intended as a
last-ditch emergency lifeboat or for landings in areas without planetary
defenses. The assault capsule (Cr10,000) has extensive ECM equipment and
generates a quantity of chaff, is lightly armored, and non point-defense
weapons have a hard time even targeting it. The high-survivability capsule
(Cr50,000) is an assault capsule that also releases several decoy
capsules, has better armor, and may not be fired upon except by
point-defense weapons.

Meteoric assault troops might be harder to spot than, say, a large
troop-ship, but they're still noticeable due to the IR signature of the
re-entry capsule, and the variety of active ECM/jamming material. One can
assume that the chaff/ECM is based around a radar-absorbing/passive
ECM/stealth-cloaking metaphor, rather than the "fill the sky with fake
targets" idea, if one prefers a more covert entry method--or perhaps a
variant "stealth capsule" (say, Cr100,000) that features extensive RAM and
stealth features, IR suppression, solid armor, and other "Stealthy"
features for that HALO-entry effet.

Of course, you wouldn't have to worry about heat and shielding doing a
drop on an airless world--but then your parachutes wouldn't work and
grav-chutes/thrusters would be required for braking. If it ain't one thing
it's another...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:32:44 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

At 11:21 AM 7/6/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Meteoric assault troops might be harder to spot than, say, a large
>troop-ship, but they're still noticeable due to the IR signature of the
>re-entry capsule, and the variety of active ECM/jamming material. One can
>assume that the chaff/ECM is based around a radar-absorbing/passive
>ECM/stealth-cloaking metaphor, rather than the "fill the sky with fake
>targets" idea, if one prefers a more covert entry method--or perhaps a
>variant "stealth capsule" (say, Cr100,000) that features extensive RAM and
>stealth features, IR suppression, solid armor, and other "Stealthy"
>features for that HALO-entry effet.
>

        I would suggest that since the drop is orbital, "stealth" is
pointless.  You most likely had to beat your way through the SDB's, silence
the ground-based defenses, move into orbit and then conduct your MAT
roll-out.    If the ground-based opponent hasn't clued in they are under
attack by now...  =)
        Ground based systems will be targeting the IR plumes of the reentry
vehciles -- plasma temps, IIRC...  you want to give them *plenty* to fire
at.  Active jammers, decoys, counter-battery fire, etc.  The "sky-full of
targets" approach will temp the defenders into flashing up their FCS, which
you then target from orbit with ship's lasers and meson strikes.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 14:38:32 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Even more dangerous...

Rev. Jetrock types:
 >Perhaps a fanatically patriotic Imperial
 >Marines lieutenant-colonel, Olivaari Spinward, would make an interesting
 >NPC, either hounding the characters to abandon their pursuit of the truth,
 >or a great aid in helping them cover it up...

The truly scary NPC would be the Imperial Government official who decided 
that letting a Marine Lt. Colonel set and implement Imperial policy 
unchecked was a good idea.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:58:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
>
> 
> Wasn't there a scandal about delaying the release until after the
> inaugeration, so that Reagan would get the public credit rather than Carter?

Nothing provable, unfortunately, since William Casey, the man who knew
everything, died rather conveniently, without telling much.

There is considerable evidence that the 'arms for hostages' bit started
before Reagan was president. The logical (and obvious) step is the
recognition that Iran releasing the hostages was quid pro quo for later
arms deals.
 
> ObTrav: The players are a special forces unit (appropriate to YTU), sent on
> a hostage rescue mission. After they have started the first phase of their
> carefully scheduled operation, they get word that their expected support
> will be delayed a few hours/days (select appropriate period) so that the
> new CO (younger son of an important noble) can get the credit.
> 
> Depending on how you want to play this, the new CO may have ordered this,
> strongly hinted that it would be a desired outcome (leaving his staff to do
> the dirty work), or be blissfully ignorant of the whole thing (in which
> case his aide-de-camp is responsible). Or to be really twisted, this is the
> outgoing CO trying to set up the incoming CO as a publicity-seeking
> incompetent, so that the old chap can retain his command after the fiasco
> comes to light.

Worse, your entire mission is compromised so that the noble's rival can
gain power. 

Of course the pc's don't find this out until after the mission starts,
when they supposedly land, find the hostages gone, and themselves in a
major **** (rhymes with 'mustard duck'), such as an ambush. When they
manage to drag themselves out of it, they find themselves in legal hot
water over their suddenly 'unauthorized' rescue attempt....

Why black ops can be so much fun to inflict upon players....especially
the ones just hot to do that cool 'play with big guns' stuff.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 20:27:24 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Batledress, Hoorah! 

> > From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
>  
> > A good recent analogue of this would be that, if my sources are correct, the
> > Brits put seasoned veteran pilots in Harriers when they were introduced.
> > The USMC originally put hot young pilots in the cockpits of theirs and
> > their training loss rate was much higher.
> 
> I hadn't heard about differing training loss rates between RAF (or RM?)
> and USMC.  If I recall correctly, (1) no twin-seat training version of
> the Harrier was made because it would have very different handling
> characteristics, especially in VTOL mode, than a combat version and (2)
> in VTOL mode the Harrier can only go off center one or two degrees
> before control is lost.  A lot of pilots died in learning how to do
> vertical take-offs because they tried to save a Harrier that had
> wobbled.  Did the veteran RAF pilots have steadier hands (and didn't get
> off center) or did they hit the eject button more quickly? or did they
> spend way more time in simulators?
> 
What I heard was that the Americans treated the planes as if they were the 
latest and greatest, and especially played with taking the avionics to the 
limit - trying to turn the planes at very high speeds, flying low at high 
speed, etc. The Harriers weren't ever meant to be good at this, and in fact 
were not as good as several planes which had been in commission for some time, 
and so a few were lost.
M

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 15:35:07 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

> 
> True. However in the AH:Game a type of more heavily armed hovering platform
> is available to some opponents. The platform if my memory is correct has a
> higher movement factor than the Troopers and more firepower. The specific
> game stats were not important as I raised them to simulate tanks anyway.
> 

I have the old Avalon Hill bookcase game version of Starship Troopers
and don't remember seeing these "platforms".  Are they in the newer
game?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:00:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

At 02:16 PM 7/6/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Wasn't there a scandal about delaying the release until after the
>inaugeration, so that Reagan would get the public credit rather than Carter?

While there is *some* evidence that Reagan campaign staff might have
influenced the Iranains to hold onto the hostages until after the election,
odds are that the hostages were released when they were as a final insult
to Carter.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:11:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Silly???

At 03:48 PM 7/6/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Not at all silly. If they can be programmed for any colouration for
>camoflage, how long will it be before we have pastel Gingham BD so they
>don't stand out when storming Laura Ashley shops?

Oh, I see a project for Jesse....

One thing that someone mentioned was using large, brightly colored panels
as a defense against chameleon BD.  The armor takes on the nearby colors,
leaving the unfortunate user bright orange (or whatever) when he moves out.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:22:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

At 10:39 AM 7/6/99 -0300, you wrote:

>        I would suggest to you that the underlying presumption about metoric
>assault is incorrect.  I do not believe there is a requirement for anything
>*but* the Marine on the ground;  no squad weapons, no light field-peices.
>Specifically, the Marine is carrying an FGMP and wearing battledress.  His
>platoon has a battlecomputer terminal and a forward observer skill.

The battledress I'm designing also has an integral laser weapon, a small
gauss weapon built into the arm, and a box 40mm grenade launcher.

The Marine might carry a specialized anti-armor missile or other type of
weapon, but Marine fire teams aren't built around a support weapon like
normal infantry squads.

<snip>

>        The vehicles would be coming down by attack shuttle only after the
>Metoric Assault Troops (MAT?  Welcome MAT?) have got a semi-beaten down LZ
>for them.  You can do alot of beating down with FGMP's and ship's lasers.
>Oh, and for the "big stuff", use ship-mounted meson bays on it.  Saves you
>trying to drop a meson sled down.

The _Starfist_ series uses Fleet Initial Strike Team, or FIST.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:29:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: More battledress

OK, I'm dedicating this weekend to designing an acceptable suit of
battledress using Vehicles.

A FGMP-12 has a maximum damage of 960 points (8d x 20), and an average
damage of 560.  So the armor is going to be around PD 800.

I'm soliciting suggestions for what y'all think should be part and paracel
of this package.  This is the Marine Assault Armor, so screw the budget.

Questions:

1. Commentary has been made about the ridiculous proportions in the S/C BD.
 What would good numbers be for a suit of man-sized armor, in cf.

2. Would a running speed of 20-25mph be considered excessive?
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:37:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Fellbane-class Orbital Defense Fighter (GTL9)

Fellbane-class Orbital Defense Fighter (GTL9)

Imperial propaganda makes much of "slow-moving, dense" Sword Worlders but
their characteristic naval architecture is the result of the Imperium's
vast technological lead. Outranged by Imperial weapons, Sword World ships
must be prepared to survive several volleys of fire before closing to
within range of their own weapons; the resulting mass severely lowers their
maneuverability. Unable to force a battle in open space, Sword World
tactics rely on forcing the Imperial Navy to assault specific targets, thus
lowering their strategic advantage.

Extremely well-armoured, the Fellbane is the ultimate expression of this
philosophy. Able to survive even point-blank hits by Imperial turret
weapons, squadrons of Fellbanes are deployed in orbit where they can
husband their limited fuel while inflicting punishing damage on the
assaulting ships.

Crew: pilot, gunner

20-ton USL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, Turret with 3 lasers, Basic stealth, Basic
emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 9 Fusion Rocket (0.6 hours), no cargo
Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
3 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450 km,
FP 2
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 1349.9 tonnes, LMass 1349.9 tonnes, Cost MCr 33.3, HP 5700
Performance: Accel 1.0 G (1.0 G empty, 1.0 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:05:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

Except this fails the common sense test...why on EARTH would the
Ayatollas wanted Reagan, he of the rattling saber, in power? 

Much of his campaign had been centered around how much of a wimp Carter
was. Were there not an October surprise in the offing, Regan could well
have been a disaster for the Iranians. 

Regan would have had ample reason to order a large-scale military attack
on Iran, which would put them down as well as rattle the saber right on
Russia's doorstep. (who would have been loathe to support the Irani
regime too much, given their existing quagmire in Afghanistan)

The Irani regime had ample reason to dislike Carter, but I really cannot
believe, after all the bombastic rhetoric of Reagan's campaign, they
didn't believe that Carter was the lesser of the evils.

Unless, of course, they already had a deal in place with Reagan...

obTrav. The Spinward Marches, while considered the backwater of the
Imperium, has been the historical springboard to power in the Imperium,
particularly following a war with the Zhodani. Thew first resulted in an
abdication. It was the winner of the second who started the Civil war,
it was the winner of the next that ended it. 

Three of the five wars with the Zhodani resulted in the fall or
abdication of an emperor. Why didn't the Fifth do that? (The fourth
could be discounted as more of a skirmish than a war given it's short
duration and resolution before anyone at Core knew it was happening...)

As later events showed, there's strong current of unrest in the
Imperium...a victorious admiral could have come out of the Marches again
and forced Strephon to abdicate in his or her favor.



What, if any backroom intrigues

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> At 02:16 PM 7/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Wasn't there a scandal about delaying the release until after the
> >inaugeration, so that Reagan would get the public credit rather than Carter?
> 
> While there is *some* evidence that Reagan campaign staff might have
> influenced the Iranains to hold onto the hostages until after the election,
> odds are that the hostages were released when they were as a final insult
> to Carter.
> 
> --
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:02:56 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 2:25 PM
Subject: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)


>Wasn't there a scandal about delaying the release until after the
>inaugeration, so that Reagan would get the public credit rather than
Carter?


Although this is strongly suspected my a number of people, to the best of my
knowledge it's never been proven.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:06:30 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress


>>
>> True. However in the AH:Game a type of more heavily armed hovering
platform
>> is available to some opponents. The platform if my memory is correct has
a
>> higher movement factor than the Troopers and more firepower. The specific
>> game stats were not important as I raised them to simulate tanks anyway.
>>
>
>I have the old Avalon Hill bookcase game version of Starship Troopers
>and don't remember seeing these "platforms".  Are they in the newer
>game?


I have the bookcase game as well and they are in mine.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:25:30 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

> 
> >Wasn't there a scandal about delaying the release until after the
> >inaugeration, so that Reagan would get the public credit rather than
> Carter?

This was the rumour going around at the time, but I have never seen any
proof of it.  Knowing politics, I wouldn't be surprised.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:29:49 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
 
> Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
> to have a rabid fear of. :-/

Oh, it has a name?  Cool.  I realized early on that that was how I had
to design anything in, e.g., Striker but I always just thought of it as
the pain in the neck I had to endure to make my designs useful.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:40:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)

> From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
> Subject: Re: Battledress

> ObTrav: Perhaps a Traveller adventure involving cover-up  of a
> prisoner-exchange plot during the Fifth Frontier War, between the
> Imperium, seeking the freedom of captured nobles, and the Zhodani,
> seeking examples of advanced Imperial weapons technology for their
> examination? How far would the Imperium go to cover up such an

I doubt that the Imperium itself would get involved in such a
transaction, except maybe for a double-cross involving giving false
information or examples to the Zhodanis.  If that were successful, then
the Imperium would go into cover-up/denial mode.  Even if the exchange
is uncovered, it's still a win for the Imperium to admit that it
happened -- but to stick to the position that the tech examples were
real.  (Someone would have to be dishonored and forced to resign, too --
like a high military officer or noble who was responsible for setting up
the transaction.)

On the other hand, the Imperium is unlikely to value a few lives, even
of very high nobles (and how would high nobles have been captured,
anyway?), above the security of the realm, and the Zhodanis would know
that.  Therefore, it would have to be a rogue operation by, maybe, a
relative of the prisoners.  It could even start out as a real operation,
but be co-opted by INI.  

In any case, I like it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: More battledress

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> OK, I'm dedicating this weekend to designing an acceptable suit of
> battledress using Vehicles.
> 
> A FGMP-12 has a maximum damage of 960 points (8d x 20), and an average
> damage of 560.  So the armor is going to be around PD 800.

Perhaps you mean DR.  If you want an FGMP-12 to be at least moderately
effective, penetratino shouldn't be more than +1 standard deviation (about DR
660).  I'd recommend DR 400 and thermal superconducting armor.  The resulting
suit will be a _lot_ lighter.

If you want, I have a suit design which is probably suitable -- its 500 lb
empty, 80% resistant to FGMP fire in the torso, 50% resistant on the limbs.
> 
> I'm soliciting suggestions for what y'all think should be part and paracel
> of this package.  This is the Marine Assault Armor, so screw the budget.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Commentary has been made about the ridiculous proportions in the S/C BD.
>  What would good numbers be for a suit of man-sized armor, in cf.
The minimum volume, assuming a 180 lb man, is 1.8 cf torso, .45 cf per leg and
for the head, .18 cf for the arms.  It probably shouldn't significantly exceed
twice this volume anywhere (the legs will probably have to slightly exceed this
value, as they're required to be 30% of torso volume each).
> 
> 2. Would a running speed of 20-25mph be considered excessive?

Nah.

------------------------------

Date: 6 Jul 1999 13:51:34 -0700
From: draper@uswestmail.net
Subject: Re: Battledress

>> Agreed. However the key word is "infantry trooper".
>> Except in the insanity of the last two centuries,
>> Military weapons were not commonly available to 
just anybody. 

I have been looking recently at the history behind the second amendment to the
U.S. Constitution ("the right to keep and bear arms"), and it turns out that
for most of the colonies all males were required to be armed.  It was a crime
for a man not be armed in Massachusetts (how times change).  Generally, all
males were required to be part of the militia and show up when called with
their own arms.  In Virginia, people were encouraged to carry armaments to
church.

There seems to be no direct correlation between violent crime and weapons
ownership; cultural factors seem to play more of a part.  Once you get beyond
the rhetoric, arming citizens is not "insanity", at least not in every society.
IMTU at least some cultures in the far future allow, or require, their citizens
to own fusion guns.

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #824
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, July 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 825



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Some of my rants on BattleDress
Re: Versions
Re: More battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: Battledress
re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
Re: Webspace ownership on AOL
Battledress and Tanks
Imperial Black Ops
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
Grendel-class Lesser Dreadnought (GTL9)
Helm-class Fighter (GTL9)
101 Starship Revisions
RE: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Battledress
Re: Xenobiology 101
A question about the Civil War
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: The War Against the Chtorr 
re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults
Re: Versions 
versions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 17:04:13 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Some of my rants on BattleDress

http://spacevermin.homepage.com/TRAV/GH/Battledress_rant.html

Feel free to comment and post.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 17:44:58 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

Then again, it's sometimes fun to design a less than optimum ship. I've
deliberately "underpowered" ships. Built them to non-armed specs then
added weapons. Makes it more fun when an engineer has to re-route power
from another system to get the laser to fire!

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> 
> > Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
> > to have a rabid fear of. :-/
> 
> Oh, it has a name?  Cool.  I realized early on that that was how I had
> to design anything in, e.g., Striker but I always just thought of it as
> the pain in the neck I had to endure to make my designs useful.
> 
> --Glenn

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:15:09 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More battledress

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 06 July 1999 20:32
Subject: More battledress


>OK, I'm dedicating this weekend to designing an acceptable suit of
>battledress using Vehicles.
>
>A FGMP-12 has a maximum damage of 960 points (8d x 20), and an average
>damage of 560.  So the armor is going to be around PD 800.


Sounds reasonable, tough but not invulnerable.

>
>I'm soliciting suggestions for what y'all think should be part and paracel
>of this package.  This is the Marine Assault Armor, so screw the budget.
>
>Questions:
>
>1. Commentary has been made about the ridiculous proportions in the S/C BD.
> What would good numbers be for a suit of man-sized armor, in cf.

Dunno, I'm metric myself <g>

>
>2. Would a running speed of 20-25mph be considered excessive?


100m in 10s = 22.388mph, so 20-25 is a very fast sprint.

>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
>
>"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
>                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:13:26 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>Terry wrote:
>> of the last two centuries, Military weapons were not commonly available
to
>> just anybody.  In a sane world Joe blow in the street should not normally
>> have access to the same weapons available to infantry.

>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Um...mostly false in most parts of the world.  While there were areas which
>restricted possession of weapons, by in large in most parts of the world if
you
>could afford military weapons, you could have them.  The problem is that
>military hardware tends to be _expensive_ -- and thus, if you had enough
money
>for it, you were probably of a high enough status to own it.

A real kernel of truth in that. Hard to parse without specific examples.
Stone age groups in Africa and North America consisted of a warrior/hunter
class where all males were armed with military weapons for that culture.  In
China, Japan and other higher tech, move advanced civilizations this was not
true.  Even in the west during the middle ages most individuals were serfs,
whose weapons were the bow and the staff. Other things like limit of
movement, lack of the funds to buy military weapons also come into it. Much
of this is affected by whether the peasant class is expected to act as a
"home guard" or whether they are a "protected class" not expected to take up
arms.

Many Americans like to romanticize the Revolutionary Army as a force armed
with their own guns defeating the British. The truth is more complex then
that. At Yorktown the Americans used cannon and bayonets extensively. These
were weapons provided by the French, thanks in large part to the efforts of
Benj. Franklin. The fact that the French Navy prevented the Royal Navy from
landing relief forces probably had much more to do with the British defeat
that anything else. I also suspect that most American's at Yorktown were
armed with rifles also provided by the French, rather than any hunting
pieces they might have owned themselves. I don't know for a fact but also
suspect that such hunting pieces were not properly configured for bayonets.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:16:59 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

> > >From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>>>
>>>   The war against Yugoslavia was a meaningful model of the battlefields in
>>> which shoulder-launched SAM's were supposed to help defend ground forces?
>>>
>>>   FWIW, IIRC, the main things that Iran cost you was a few choppers and your
>>> shot at the World Cup.
>>
>> Strange...
>>
>> Last time I remember us tryin to invade Iran was back a bit before Regan took
>> office.  That would put it back, what, 20 years?  '79ish?
>
>Well, it cost the US a lot of the soldiers on those helicopters, too.
>As well as the prolonged captivity of the hostages.  They were taken hostage
>in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
>after Reagan was inaugerated.

Tipigraphical error: I meant to say Iraq :(

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:32:46 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

>>Meteoric assault troops might be harder to spot than, say, a large
>>troop-ship, but they're still noticeable due to the IR signature of the
>>re-entry capsule, and the variety of active ECM/jamming material. One can
>>assume that the chaff/ECM is based around a radar-absorbing/passive
>>ECM/stealth-cloaking metaphor, rather than the "fill the sky with fake
>>targets" idea, if one prefers a more covert entry method--or perhaps a
>>variant "stealth capsule" (say, Cr100,000) that features extensive RAM and
>>stealth features, IR suppression, solid armor, and other "Stealthy"
>>features for that HALO-entry effet.
>

> I would suggest that since the drop is orbital, "stealth" is
>pointless.  You most likely had to beat your way through the SDB's, silence
>the ground-based defenses, move into orbit and then conduct your MAT
>roll-out.    If the ground-based opponent hasn't clued in they are under
>attack by now...  =)

What about Commando style covert insertions vice full assaults? Would they
be done with highly IR Cloaked assault vessels? Or perhaps under cover of a
meteor shower? Would they be limited to lower TL worlds, with operatives
entering high TL locations as ship passengers with their equipment sent as
cargo?

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:22:20 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Webspace ownership on AOL

> On the other hand, there are a few TML members who own their own web
servers
> outright and might offer web space freely.

I'd _love_ to do this. I have a full network and server set up at home now,
but it'sthe connection costs that are the killer, even at $1 an hour, I
can't afford to be connected full time, and any dial-up ISP with "unlmited"
access using charges an arm and a leg for DNS hosting and kicks you off
every few hours.

I'm waiting for the local cable company to put fibre down our street so I
can go online full time, then I'll start offering a similar service, and put
most (i.e. the legal bits <grin> ) of my 8Gb-odd of RPG material on line

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:53:35 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Battledress and Tanks

Things to remember about battledress ...

1) As far as vehicles go, everything and it's dog has Point Defense
accurate out to several kilometers.

2) BD might be immune to what leg infantry can carry. But it isnt
invulnerable to what they can emplace.

3) A human without power armour puts out less heat than a human with power
armour.

4) BD that is shrapnel-proof may not be cluster bomblet proof.

5) tank armour got thicker too.

6) digital cameras linked to a spool of fiber optic can put the operator
well away from the emplaced heavy weapon.

7) contragrav puts out gravity waves that gravitic sensors can detect.

8) if all the fireteam squirts out is 'they're here', then they've done
their job.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:53:29 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Black Ops

Remember people, 'the Imperium' doesnt really exist as a unit of policy.
Given government by men, not laws, you have the system designed to work by
individuals going off and doing their own thing. The fact that Imperial
Warrants exist indicates there is a problem with friction between different
Imperial bureaucracies.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 16:05:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

Terry Carlino wrote:
> 
> What about Commando style covert insertions vice full assaults? Would they
> be done with highly IR Cloaked assault vessels? Or perhaps under cover of a
> meteor shower? Would they be limited to lower TL worlds, with operatives
> entering high TL locations as ship passengers with their equipment sent as
> cargo?
> 

Good point. Any world with regular space travel above, say TL9 or so is
going to have a pretty good junktracking system set up, if only to
minimize hazards to shipping. 'Earth'-crossing rocks would certainly be
tracked. Any jump capsule coming in would be recognized as such.

Doing it during a meteor shower might work, but you would have to be
very, very careful. You certainly wouldn't want your elite commando team
to be surprised by a bunch of eager rockhounds searching for the
meteorites they tracked to the ground.

Then again, if they're tracking such things they will look very
carefully at anything that suddenly slowed to a survivable speed.
'Meteoric' assaults are such in name only...those poor schlubs in the
capsules really aren't coming in at 30-50,000 mph ;-) If they are, then
no worry...they burned to fine carbon dust like the rest of the meteor
shower...

The way to do it on a high TL world is to get kicked out above the
planet at a 'no-forward velocity' trajectory, and simply come in on CG
in a highly stealthed capsule, which might as well be a highly stealthed
vehicle at this point. You're high, but you come in slow, so you don't
get the atmospheric heating.

Here you're much more susceptible to things like upper atmosphere winds,
but once you get down low, you can goe NOE or close to get to where you
want to be, once you're down below radar.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:11:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Grendel-class Lesser Dreadnought (GTL9)

Grendel-class Lesser Dreadnought (GTL9)

Imperial propaganda makes much of "slow-moving, dense" Sword Worlders but
their characteristic naval architecture is the result of the Imperium's
vast technological lead. Outranged by Imperial weapons, Sword World ships
must be prepared to survive several volleys of fire before closing to
within range of their own weapons; the resulting mass severely lowers their
maneuverability. Unable to force a battle in open space, Sword World
tactics rely on forcing the Imperial Navy to assault specific targets, thus
lowering their strategic advantage.

Grendel-class Lesser Dreadnoughts form a large part of Sword World
offensive capability. Large, invulnerable to turret weapons (and thus most
fighters), and relatively fast for a Sword World ship, the Grendel class
was designed to stand up to second-rank Imperial warships-and win.

Crew: 10 bridge crew, 300 engineers, 262 gunners, 16 auxiliary crew, 286
frozen watch

50000-ton USL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, Total compartmentalization, 190 Turrets
with 3 lasers each, 10 Turrets with 3 sandcasters each, 30 Missile Bays,
Spinal Particle Beam, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking, Hardened
Command Bridge, Engineering, 8000 Fusion Rocket, 1500 Jump, 10000 Fuel,
25000 Rocket Fuel (1.9 hours), 10 Fuel Processors (125.0 hours), Stateroom,
37 Bunkrooms (592 personnel), 72 Low Berths (holds 288 cryotubes), 100
Utility, 8 Vehicle Bays (8 Helm Fighters), 144.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
570 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450
km, FP 2
Spinal Particle Beam: Imp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000, Rng 78080 km, MxRng 234240
km, FP 424
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 753483.3 tonnes, LMass 766394.6 tonnes, Cost MCr 24547.1,
HP 1297500
Performance: Accel 1.6 G (1.6 G empty, 1.6 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:11:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Helm-class Fighter (GTL9)

Helm-class Fighter (GTL9)

Imperial propaganda makes much of "slow-moving, dense" Sword Worlders but
their characteristic naval architecture is the result of the Imperium's
vast technological lead. Outranged by Imperial weapons, Sword World ships
must be prepared to survive several volleys of fire before closing to
within range of their own weapons; the resulting mass severely lowers their
maneuverability. Unable to force a battle in open space, Sword World
tactics rely on forcing the Imperial Navy to assault specific targets, thus
lowering their strategic advantage.

The Helm-class fighter is a common one in the Sword Worlds. While not very
fast, it can shrug off Imperial turret weapons at long range, greatly
increasing its survivability. Like most Sword Worlds warships, the Helm
uses fusion rockets rather than reactionless thrusters, trading limited
endurance and radioactive exhaust for better performance.

Crew: pilot, gunner

40-ton USL Hull, DR 2500, PD 4, Turret with 3 lasers, Basic stealth, Basic
emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 11 Fusion Rocket, 27 Rocket Fuel (1.5
hours), no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
3 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450 km,
FP 2
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 1532.0 tonnes, LMass 1532.0 tonnes, Cost MCr 34.9, HP 8700
Performance: Accel 1.1 G (1.1 G empty, 1.1 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: 101 Starship Revisions

Now that school's out and the mareking finished, I'll be working on a new
release of 101 Starships.

If anyone wants to contribute a design, or feels like writing some more
background text for a design already there, now's the time to send it to
me. If I like it, I'll include it (with credit, of course).

No money--101 Starships is a free product--but think of the glory :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:01:28 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Upper Sizes of Ships

At 02:35 PM 7/4/99 +0800, you wrote:
>While doing a TNE version of the 75,000 dt Regal class battlecruiser I ran
>into the surface area problem. In order to get everything to fit I had to
>give the ship a hybrid needle/wedge configuration with an airframe. The
>sight of one of these screaming through an atmosphere would be a novel, and
>rather terrifying way of "showing the flag"
>
>

IMTU is a mega corp known as Star Services, Inc. One subsidary company is
Star Security Services. One technique used thereby is call a "Burn Down".
After clearing a planet of major air defenses, the Security Cruisers align
in orbit north and south of the equator at several kilometer intervals, and
drop speed just enough to decelerate into the atmosphere. They don't slow
much, just enough to survive the massive fire trail and sonic effect. No
real physical damage done to the planet, but the psychological effect the
skies on fire and seemingly endless rolling thunder has certainly improved
the sense of co operation the locals have.

Garry Ward

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 20:09:50 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
> >> 6.  Like any other game book, if you don't like what I write, ignore
> >> it!
> >> The game police are not going to come to your door if I see print and
> >> you
> >> decide that the Imperial Marines are actually a dance troupe who use
> >> interpretive ballet to shame their foes into surrendering.
> >
<<snip>>
> 
> You should check out "Hivers & Ithklur" then.  And when you finish the
> writeup for the Emperor's Own Ithklur Assault Ballet Troupe, send a copy to
> The Silly Era so we can all enjoy it.
> 
> <Mental picture of an Imperial tanker watching an Ithklur sidle up to his
> grav tank en pointe, gracefully lift it into the air, and then...>

Funny..._my_ first mental picture was of a rather short figure, wearing
battle dress, singing, "Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Vawgw...." ["...with
my x-way wasew wifwe!"]

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
**BOYCOTT MY SITE!**
http://www.sitepowerup.com/boycottyahoo/boycottyahoo.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 18:41:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battledress

>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Re: Battledress
...
>in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
>after Reagan was inaugerated.

  Somewhat odd that the Iranian student revolutionaries* had such a fine
sense of humour when it came to needlessly insulting the outgoing leader
(who is called much worse by his own system, e.g. a lame duck), but had
not the least clue that they had made themselves and their country radically
unpopular by violating accepted norms of diplomatic behaviour.

        *  :|

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 19:47:21 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

>Redwoods? And isn't there an extremely large fungus somewhere in the
>eastern USA?

Yes, but he has only 16 months left until his term of office ends...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:41:23 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: A question about the Civil War

I'd like people's opinion on the following:

How sustained was the fighting during the Civil War?

Was it a period of prolonged interstellar warfare, with factions
occasionally seizing Capitol, losing it and regrouping for another attempt,
or was it a period of sporadic warfare, palace coups and quickly resolved
mutinies?

The obvious answer is, of course, both, but what I am really interested in
is the balance between them.

In any case, localised warfare can be safely assumed to be taking place
throughout the period, as local noble cliques take advantage of the
relative anarchy to destroy their rivals.  An example of this would be
Baron/Marquis/Duke Caranda's attack on Menorb.

In short, what happened?  Was it a period of murderous intrigues, or a
'real' war, like the Rebellion?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 22:17:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

> I'd like people's opinion on the following:
> 
> How sustained was the fighting during the Civil War?
> 
> Was it a period of prolonged interstellar warfare, with factions
> occasionally seizing Capitol, losing it and regrouping for another attempt,
> or was it a period of sporadic warfare, palace coups and quickly resolved
> mutinies?
> 
> The obvious answer is, of course, both, but what I am really interested in
> is the balance between them.

Canonically, the fight was just between different fleets.  A fleet would pull 
into a system, refuel, revictual, give the crews some shore leave, then head 
out again.  The 'locals' weren't involved beyond selling the fleets supplies. 
 The Imperial bureacracy continued on, unimpeded and unmolested.  No fleet 
really had a 'power base' external to itself.
 
> In any case, localised warfare can be safely assumed to be taking place
> throughout the period, as local noble cliques take advantage of the
> relative anarchy to destroy their rivals.  An example of this would be
> Baron/Marquis/Duke Caranda's attack on Menorb.

More like, two fleets meet in space and fight until one withdraws.  Then the 
victors head for the planet to resupply and repair.
 
> In short, what happened?  Was it a period of murderous intrigues, or a
> 'real' war, like the Rebellion?

It wasn't a 'real' war per se.  None of the 'barracks Emperors' ever had a 
following on a planet or any region.  Most of the people didn't *care* who 
claimed to be Emperor, just as long as they kept the violence out in space 
where it belonged.

The Rebellion was a whole 'nuther parable, though.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 22:37:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr 

> Robert O'Connor writes:
> <snipped>
> "This idea seems a little fishy to me (in the absence of genetic
> engineering) ; I'll leave it to 'Peez' Ferguson to comment on 
> 'The War Against the Chtorr'."
> 
> 	I'm afraid that I haven't read that one. What was it about?

I'm just wondering if the 5th book in the series ever came out.

Great series, btw.  And no, I'm *NOT* a Modie.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:48:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assaults

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

> At 11:21 AM 7/6/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >Meteoric assault troops might be harder to spot than, say, a large
> >troop-ship, but they're still noticeable due to the IR signature of the
> >re-entry capsule, and the variety of active ECM/jamming material. One can
> >assume that the chaff/ECM is based around a radar-absorbing/passive
> >ECM/stealth-cloaking metaphor, rather than the "fill the sky with fake
> >targets" idea, if one prefers a more covert entry method--or perhaps a
> >variant "stealth capsule" (say, Cr100,000) that features extensive RAM and
> >stealth features, IR suppression, solid armor, and other "Stealthy"
> >features for that HALO-entry effet.
> >
> 
>         I would suggest that since the drop is orbital, "stealth" is
> pointless.  You most likely had to beat your way through the SDB's, silence
> the ground-based defenses, move into orbit and then conduct your MAT
> roll-out.    If the ground-based opponent hasn't clued in they are under
> attack by now...  =)
>         Ground based systems will be targeting the IR plumes of the reentry
> vehciles -- plasma temps, IIRC...  you want to give them *plenty* to fire
> at.  Active jammers, decoys, counter-battery fire, etc.  The "sky-full of
> targets" approach will temp the defenders into flashing up their FCS, which
> you then target from orbit with ship's lasers and meson strikes.
> 

Which is why I mentioned the original drop-troops scenario as being a
high-profile, active-ECM affair that would be hard to disguise. But while
a large-scale raid might be that dramatic, it wouldn't be hard to
envision, say, a particularly stealthy scout-type ship (for GURPS
Traveller players, perhaps a _Pytheas_ class scout craft) firing assault
pods into an undefended portion of a world--or, for a world with no
atmosphere, there's no worry about IR plumes.

But yeah, your typical drop will be about as subtle as a brickbat to the
face.


- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 22:49:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> At 01:40 PM 7/6/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >>I still haven't figured out how to design a starship using MT rules.  *HOW*
> >>do you allocate space for a reactor when you don't know how big a reactor
> >>you'll need?  I *do* appreciate the post-TL15 tech additions to the ruleset,
> >>even though this kinda tech in *MY* TU is rather hard to find and control.
> >
> >Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
> >to have a rabid fear of. :-/
> >
> >Basically, you estimate how much power you'll need, put in that reactor,
> >and then after the ship is finished go back and adjust as necessary. You'll
> >have to keep tweaking a few times (iterations), but then you'd have to do
> >that anyway for various other design elements. (At least, you'll need to
> >tweak if you want an optimized design.)
> >
> 
>         In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
> your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
> power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       

Except that all the spreadsheets I've seen are only for Excell, and I don't
use *any* M$ products.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 20:34:58 PDT
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: versions

First let me say the politically correct thing that all versions have merit 
and could only be great if they could be incorporated into one game 
system...are you listening Marc (T5 hopefully will reflect the diversity of 
the Traveller universe).  GURPS has done an admirable job in filling source 
material from the twenty years and hopefully will continue to so but the 
rules are akward and do not allow for fly-by-the-seat of your pants role 
playing.  But hey! The putting together all this information from twenty 
years is admirable until referees can purchase the SMART and AAB on 
CD-Rom...
Lots of my comments concur with earlier submissions.

CT: It's the vision thing indeed.  Particularly, Keiths' FASA work & DGP 
Grand Tour.  Like when one Star Wars for the first time, one knew Space 
Opera would never be the same.  But, the simpleness of the rules weighed it 
down as one had to consult literally hundreds of tables.

MT: The rules of choice; the task system was absolutely brillant innovation 
as one say to one's players Mmm looks DIFFICULT and get on with playing 
instead of thinking up a number.  Plus, the rebellion was the logical 
outcome out of stagnate and decaying 3I never seemed that way in CT.  But, 
come on we Navy types always need an excuse to move a Fleet out of base 
other than just showing the flag.

MT-HT: The logical outcome of the Rebellion.  The bloodletting leading to 
collapse as the factions wage ideological warfare.  Winning the hearts and 
minds, costs lives in the real world.  The problem with it was the collapse 
happened too quick.  Looking at the Roman Empire as historical parallel many 
other Kingdoms (eg. Bzanthum, Holy Roman Empire, Rennaisance City States 
[particularly the Papal states]) claimed the title of Rome long after the 
Barbarians had moved on.  So GDW had destroy all vestiges of the Imperial 
Campaign... so now we come to:

TNE: The setting destroyed, the rules confounded, and PC's made into
merely rescuers of civilization. Some merit.  But, given everything save the 
Hiver civilization and pocket empires surviving lost the PCs in the 
immensity of the universe.  So I had the PC from the Reformation Coalition 
discover Grandfather's fluxuating wormhole network allowing contact with the 
other Pocket Empires (even though most ended up in empty space, heh, heh).  
This way confront the Virus on a more fair playing field.  As I tended to 
emphasize the Virus threat rather the rules which stressed the virus was an 
occasional phenomena (hey, I was caught up in the black mood)at the loss of 
the precious-s-s 3I. FF&S the most usable supplement ever produced by 
Traveller was the result of TNE so I cannot completely hate it as my players 
(imperial navy characters who refused to retire) did.

T4: The vision somewhat returns, but the rules go screwy.  The only decent 
thing was Milieu 0 and episode 1: Gateway.  The rules held so much promise 
that they would cover from the time of the Ancients to the Far, Far Future 
but failed to deliver.  But there was great artwork (Chris Foss) and an 
attempt not to use the same starships which commonly characterized 
Traveller.  First I hated it but it is like the Phantom Menace it grows on 
you like a rather but fungal disease.

GT: Earlier comments still apply.  Would be interesting however if GURPS 
could take us to places only previously suggested.  Eg.  FASA's Far 
Frontiers sector, deep into Alien Space--eg. what makes the Zhodani, K'kree, 
etc civilizations tick (and beyond Chartered Space), and finally produce a 
supplement covering the 3I at its height and in all its glory.  There are 
many things on the dream list.  GURPS at least allows us to dream once again 
in the light (like CT) not like later editions which prompted us to Dream of 
Chaos.
Signing off.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #825
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, July 7 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 826



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Silly???
Re: Imperial Black Ops
Re: Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)
Re: Battledress
MT Ship Design (Was Re: Versions)
MT Spreadsheets
Re : Xenobiology 101 :- (Peez's comments)
Re : Xenobiology 101 : posting to the Web
RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's comments)
re: Battledress
Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Rosettes
Re: Rosettes 
Re: A question about the Civil War 
OT: coming to Boston area
Re: MT Spreadsheets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:58:13 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Silly???

That one'd be a wee bit involved :)

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.
> Berry
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 5:12 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Silly???
> 
> 
> At 03:48 PM 7/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Not at all silly. If they can be programmed for any colouration for
> >camoflage, how long will it be before we have pastel Gingham BD so they
> >don't stand out when storming Laura Ashley shops?
> 
> Oh, I see a project for Jesse....
> 
> One thing that someone mentioned was using large, brightly colored panels
> as a defense against chameleon BD.  The armor takes on the nearby colors,
> leaving the unfortunate user bright orange (or whatever) when he 
> moves out.
> -- 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry
> Templar Agent at Large.
> dberry@hooked.net  
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 
> 
> TravGeekCode: 
> tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
> ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>          
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:09:37 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Black Ops

Ya, know, the saddest part of this is simply how true it is.  This is why 
every time I played in M0 (despite the fact that I'm a CT freak) I was
always on the side of the anti-imperial forces. To anyone who worries about
"yanks in space", the simple fact is that the 3I is anti-yank inherently.  I
like CT - but that said, anything that stops Cleon in his tracks is
inherently good.


Heh. This should be almost as good as the flame-bait I left in the SJG
groups a bit ago...

William

> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:53:29 +1100
> From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> Subject: Imperial Black Ops
>
> Remember people, 'the Imperium' doesnt really exist as a unit of policy.
> Given government by men, not laws, you have the system designed to work by
> individuals going off and doing their own thing. The fact that Imperial
> Warrants exist indicates there is a problem with friction between different
> Imperial bureaucracies.
>
> Ian Whitchurch
>
>


- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:46:49 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 1:38 PM
Subject: Imperial X-files (was Battledress)


>> From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
>> Subject: Re: Battledress
>
>> ObTrav: Perhaps a Traveller adventure involving cover-up  of a
>> prisoner-exchange plot during the Fifth Frontier War, between the
>> Imperium, seeking the freedom of captured nobles, and the Zhodani,
>> seeking examples of advanced Imperial weapons technology for their
>> examination? How far would the Imperium go to cover up such an
>
>I doubt that the Imperium itself would get involved in such a
>transaction, except maybe for a double-cross involving giving false
>information or examples to the Zhodanis.  If that were successful, then
>the Imperium would go into cover-up/denial mode.  Even if the exchange
>is uncovered, it's still a win for the Imperium to admit that it
>happened -- but to stick to the position that the tech examples were
>real.  (Someone would have to be dishonored and forced to resign, too --
>like a high military officer or noble who was responsible for setting up
>the transaction.)
>
>On the other hand, the Imperium is unlikely to value a few lives, even
>of very high nobles (and how would high nobles have been captured,
>anyway?), above the security of the realm, and the Zhodanis would know
>that.  Therefore, it would have to be a rogue operation by, maybe, a
>relative of the prisoners.  It could even start out as a real operation,
>but be co-opted by INI.
>
>In any case, I like it.
>
>--Glenn
>
Oh come now, this is *much* more fun if we throw in the "evil megacorps".
Think of it, in the opening days of FFW, an LSP courier, with the regional
manager on board, is captured.  LSP is of course highly motivated for his
return, and knows it will get little support from the 3I.  Enter the PCs:
"We just need you to make a delivery, and pick up some passengers..."
Thinking they will be safely removed from the war zone, our PCs happily
oblige.  Then we throw in all sorts of fun complications- the 3I found out,
a competitor Megacorp finds out, and either uses the info as blackmail,
tries to get the manager themselves, etc, etc.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:51:33 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 2:05 PM
Subject: re: Battledress



>
> Strictly for on road transport, of course. Any battlefield transport will be
> at Nape of Earth. For planetary combat, outside a metropolitan area, you use
> Battledress like a gunship. Any concentration of living things, not
> exhibiting IFF you toast. That's what the AESA and Radscanner is for. You
> paint my buddy with your targeting laser and even if you take him out I
> saturate the area with lots or ordinance, either my own or for artillery.
> You use an energy weapon of any kind I toast you. You use a communicator.
I
> toast you. You shoot a missile at me and I drop below the tree tops and
use
> countermeasures.
>

Do you even need to-hit rolls anymore in BD?  Missiles can't get through and
the firer is toast, RAM/RPG's can't get through and the user is toast.
Snipers can't hurt it and the sniper is toast.  Consealed troops can't hide
from it and are toast.  Mines cannot harm it (and I'm sure something will be
toasted in the interim).  Sounds like exciting game mechanics to me!

> >IMO, the striking power of an Imperial Marine unit was based on it's
> >mobility, coordination with Navy assets, advanced weaponry, and
> >superior training and experience. It wasn't based on each individual
> >Marine being invulnerable, super-strong, and able to leap tall buildings
> >in a single bound, no matter what all those recruiting videos say... :-)
>
> That's all battledress is advanced weaponry.  It's not invulnerable.

Not the way it sounds to me??

> The
> right weapon will take it out. Fixed and vehicle weapons can take out a
> Marine in Battledress, as can support weapons, if you hit the guy enough
> times. I haven't played the Marine Commando armor yet, but when I do you can
> bet I'll use a battle damage table to reduce the suits effectiveness as a
> result of battle damage. I expect the GURPS active duty military book when
> it comes out will have an anti-battledress weapon in it (as well as
> antiarmor weapons. Even before that I'll probably put together something if
> I use battledress in my game (As opposed to just running a scenario to see
> how it plays.)

Why make it so much bigger and badder if all that does is make it usable
against much weaker foes, if with each upgrade of the armour, a GM is
compelled to instigate newer weapons to handle it?  I mean, are you going to
give the PC the new version of the "SuperBD" and let them use it for an
in-game year untill the enemy introduces a weapon that takes it out?  Sounds
like great fun playing an invulnerable character for that time, no
challenge, no chance of being harmed... well, maybe it doesn't.  At least in
CT, BD was more even.  You were at least vulnerable and needed it, perhaps
to stand a chance on the battle field, not invulnerable and able to
withstand EVERYTHING on the battle field.  But who cares about playability?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:00:28 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: MT Ship Design (Was Re: Versions)

>>I still haven't figured out how to design a starship using MT rules.  *HOW*
>>do you allocate space for a reactor when you don't know how big a reactor
>>you'll need?  I *do* appreciate the post-TL15 tech additions to the ruleset,
>>even though this kinda tech in *MY* TU is rather hard to find and control.
>><grin>
>>
>>Keven
>
>Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
>to have a rabid fear of. :-/
>
>Basically, you estimate how much power you'll need, put in that reactor,
>and then after the ship is finished go back and adjust as necessary. You'll
>have to keep tweaking a few times (iterations), but then you'd have to do
>that anyway for various other design elements. (At least, you'll need to
>tweak if you want an optimized design.)

 With MT, the VAST majority of your power requirements wil be the weapons, 
particularly if you go with lasers. With a lowly triple laser turret 
consuming a whopping 750MW, even the maneuver drive will start to fall behind.
 Figure out your weapon load and get a power figure for it. Get a power 
requirement for your desired maneuver drive. Add the two together, add 
another 10% to that, and install a powerplant to that spec. It'll be right an 
awful lot of the time...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:08:55 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: MT Spreadsheets

>>         In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
>> your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
>> power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       
>
>Except that all the spreadsheets I've seen are only for Excell, and I don't 
use *any* M$ >products.
>
>Keven

 While I haven't yet, I can certainly port my old (Excel 2.2) MT design 
spreadsheet into ClarisWorks. From there, several exports are possible.  My 
spreadsheet is primarily a calculation assistant instead of a wholesale 
designer, which means you HAVE to have MT Ref's Manual open in front of you...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:19:51 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 :- (Peez's comments)

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> Nerve impulses *aren't* all that fast. I seem to recall a figure of
> something like 150 feet/sec. The problem with pressure waves is keeping
> them restricted to the nerve channels, so as to avoid "crosstalk" in
> the brain and other areas where nerves are closely packed.

* Conduction velocity varies with :-
fibre diameter
myelination
* Small unmyelinated twigs (0.3 to 1.3 micrometres in diameter) have a
conduction velocity of 0.5 to 2 metres per second (relay pain and
temperature messages).
* The largest myelinated fibres (A-alpha, 12-20 micrometres in diameter)
have a conduction velocity of 70 to 120 metres per second (relay
proprioceptive and motor messages).
* Touch and pressure afferents (A-beta) are from 5-12 micrometres in
diameter and have a conduction velocity of 30-70 metres per second.

Pressure waves are problematic for the reason you mentioned.
Microfluidic 'switches' may be a possibility at these scales.

Buckyball cell membranes sound unlikely.
Carbon fibre 'silk' or other similar materials (silicon carbide? boron
nitride?) might be possible ; although collagen and spidroin are amazing
bits of protein chemistry.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:19:59 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : posting to the Web

I'm going to ask Jeff Zeitlin if he would kindly post a series of pages
based on what we've covered in this thread.

The proposed outline of topics covered is as follows :-
1. Introduction
- - what is life?
- - what requirements does life have?
2. From Primordial Soup to Cells
- - the first biomolecules
- - metabolism
- - cells
- - multicellularity
3. Tissues and Organs
- - Scaling laws
- - Cellular differentiation and key organ systems (from a functional
perspective)
- - variations on themes : alternate solutions to :-
        - locomotion
        - neurotransmission
        - reproduction
4. Ecology
- - miscellaneous points not covered elsewhere

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 01:26:30 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez's comments)

At 01:37 PM 7/6/99 +1000, you wrote:
>P.S. All you other TMLers :- if you would like this stuff to move
off
>list, say so!!

	H*ll no! I'm just worried that (a) I'll never get the chance to
actually sit down and read through the thread in detail, and (b) I've
missed saving a particularly vital message to disk ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 01:26:28 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Battledress

At 12:05 AM 7/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I suspect that under most combat conditions manpack SAM's haven't
been an
>effective deterrent. At least I don't think we lost any planes to
them in
>either Kosovo or Iran.

	No, we didn't lose many planes. But did you notice the altitudes at
which most sorties were flown? Notice how long it took to get the
A-10's in? Notice how many sorties the Apaches wound up flying?

	I'd say manpack SAM's were very effective *deterrents.* The
opposition (us) just worked around it. No low-altitude precision
strikes? High altitude smart bombs and cruise missiles. Oh, and
carpet bombing from B52's. No eyes-on-target strikes from slow-n-ugly
(aka A-10). Oops! Didn't mean to hit that refugee convoy, but we're
doing the best we can ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:23:39 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
the absence of design?

The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.

My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.

Thoughts? Constructive comments?

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:51:33 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

From me:
> > I'd like people's opinion on the following:
> > 
> > How sustained was the fighting during the Civil War?

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> Canonically, the fight was just between different fleets.  A fleet would
pull 
> into a system, refuel, revictual, give the crews some shore leave, then
head 
> out again.  The 'locals' weren't involved beyond selling the fleets
supplies. 
>  The Imperial bureacracy continued on, unimpeded and unmolested.  No
fleet 
> really had a 'power base' external to itself.

Canonically???  Where?  Reference?

> > In any case, localised warfare can be safely assumed to be taking place
> > throughout the period, as local noble cliques take advantage of the
> > relative anarchy to destroy their rivals.  An example of this would be
> > Baron/Marquis/Duke Caranda's attack on Menorb.
> 
> More like, two fleets meet in space and fight until one withdraws.  Then
the 
> victors head for the planet to resupply and repair.

The Caranda reference is to the article on the 4518th Lift Infantry in
Journal #9, reprinted in Spinward Marches Campaign.

> > In short, what happened?  Was it a period of murderous intrigues, or a
> > 'real' war, like the Rebellion?
> 
> It wasn't a 'real' war per se.  None of the 'barracks Emperors' ever had
a 
> following on a planet or any region.  Most of the people didn't *care*
who 
> claimed to be Emperor, just as long as they kept the violence out in
space 
> where it belonged.
> 
> The Rebellion was a whole 'nuther parable, though.

An interesting view.  

One possible argument against it is that the *nobility* would *care* who
the Emperor was.  This is supported by the Moot endorsing some Emperors,
and not others.  The nobility then would turn to their local support bases,
planetary armies, planetary navies, reserve fleets (left-overs from the old
'Pocket Empire' days) and so on. 

There's also the stuff in Solomani & Aslan that tries to explain it in
Solomani vs Vilani terms.  This is obvious propoganda stuff that shouldn't
be taken too literally, but it still suggests that a bit of populism was
going on.

I would be very surprised if attempts weren't made to mobilise popular
support.  There are fairly obvious grounds for it:  the former Old Earth
Union (only integrated in 588), Ilelish (worked over in the Ilelish
revolt), Antares (an autonomous region), the Geonee....

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 02:11:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

> The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
> Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
> better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
> the absence of design?
> 
> The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.
> 
> My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
> as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.
> 
> Thoughts? Constructive comments?

I can see this happening.  An ecosystem that is half a billion years older than ours would have an extra half billion years worth of experience adapting to ever increasing evolutionary pressure.  After all, how old is our ecosystem?  Two, three billion years?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 00:29:04 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Rosettes

"Three or more equal masses (worlds) set at the points of an equilateral 
polygon, and with the correct equal angular velocities about their center of
masses, will have a stable orbital configuration. The group does not require
a central star. Rosettes almost never occur naturally." -- Traveller Library
Data

Can a rosette that has no central star (or other gravity well) have a
null-gravity (la grange) point(s)?


- -----------------------------
Hypercleats / ICQ: 8139313

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:31:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rosettes 

> "Three or more equal masses (worlds) set at the points of an equilateral 
> polygon, and with the correct equal angular velocities about their center of
> masses, will have a stable orbital configuration. The group does not require
> a central star. Rosettes almost never occur naturally." -- Traveller Library
> Data
> 
> Can a rosette that has no central star (or other gravity well) have a
> null-gravity (la grange) point(s)?

I don't see why not, but I don't have any math to confirm or deny it.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:02:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

> >From me:
> > > I'd like people's opinion on the following:
> > > 
> > > How sustained was the fighting during the Civil War?
> 
> > From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> > Canonically, the fight was just between different fleets.  A fleet would
> pull 
> > into a system, refuel, revictual, give the crews some shore leave, then
> head 
> > out again.  The 'locals' weren't involved beyond selling the fleets
> supplies. 
> >  The Imperial bureacracy continued on, unimpeded and unmolested.  No
> fleet 
> > really had a 'power base' external to itself.
> 
> Canonically???  Where?  Reference?

I remember reading it in a JTAS or Challenge article someplace.  And IIRC, 
there was some mention about it in the Library Data LBBs.  It started when 
Olav hault-Plankwell, Grand Admiral of the Marches, decided to march on the 
Capital after winning the First Frontier War practically unsupported by the 
Imperium due to communications lag times and general unpreparedness for the 
war.  He forced an audience with Jaqueline I and personally shot her, 
proclaiming himself Emperor by right of fleet control.

According to Library Data A-M, there were fringe battles for power bases and 
central battles for control of the Core.  But most of the claimnants opted to 
just go after the current Emperor and take the Throne by the right of 
assassination.  Of the 18 'barracks Emperors', 7 were assassinated, 10 died 
in battle, and Arbellatra survived.
 
> > > In any case, localised warfare can be safely assumed to be taking place
> > > throughout the period, as local noble cliques take advantage of the
> > > relative anarchy to destroy their rivals.  An example of this would be
> > > Baron/Marquis/Duke Caranda's attack on Menorb.
> > 
> > More like, two fleets meet in space and fight until one withdraws.  Then
> the 
> > victors head for the planet to resupply and repair.
> 
> The Caranda reference is to the article on the 4518th Lift Infantry in
> Journal #9, reprinted in Spinward Marches Campaign.

Thing about the Minorb campaign was, it wasn't an attempt to put Caranda on 
the Throne.  It was more like, stomping down somebody before they got the 
chance to do it first.  A pre-emptive strike.
 
> > > In short, what happened?  Was it a period of murderous intrigues, or a
> > > 'real' war, like the Rebellion?
> > 
> > It wasn't a 'real' war per se.  None of the 'barracks Emperors' ever had
> a 
> > following on a planet or any region.  Most of the people didn't *care*
> who 
> > claimed to be Emperor, just as long as they kept the violence out in
> space 
> > where it belonged.
> > 
> > The Rebellion was a whole 'nuther parable, though.
> 
> An interesting view.  
> 
> One possible argument against it is that the *nobility* would *care* who
> the Emperor was.  This is supported by the Moot endorsing some Emperors,
> and not others.  The nobility then would turn to their local support bases,
> planetary armies, planetary navies, reserve fleets (left-overs from the old
> 'Pocket Empire' days) and so on. 

Half the time, the Moot didn't confirm any of the 'barracks Emperors'.  They 
figured the latest claimnant would just get himself killed off when the next 
challanger showed up.  They were pretty much right.  Arbellatra didn't claim 
the Throne, she just offered her services as Regent until an Emperor could be 
found.
 
> There's also the stuff in Solomani & Aslan that tries to explain it in
> Solomani vs Vilani terms.  This is obvious propoganda stuff that shouldn't
> be taken too literally, but it still suggests that a bit of populism was
> going on.
> 
> I would be very surprised if attempts weren't made to mobilise popular
> support.  There are fairly obvious grounds for it:  the former Old Earth
> Union (only integrated in 588), Ilelish (worked over in the Ilelish
> revolt), Antares (an autonomous region), the Geonee....

The main crisis times, according to Library Data A-M, start in 475 with the 
assassination of Nicholle and the assumption of the Throne by Cleon IV.  
Every Emperor's reign from 475 until Arbellatra was elected by the Moot was 
assassinated.  The one that lasted the longest was Cleon IV, who reigned from 
475 until 555.  Arbellatra died of natural causes, and the Alkhalikoi Dynasty 
lasted until 1116, when Strephon was whacked.

What did the Imperium in was the retention of the 'right of assassination', a 
legal fiction allowed to Porfiria when she whacked out Cleon the Mad.  It 
entered into custom, and was used by eight of the 'barracks Emperors' to 
establish their claims.  If they'd taken this off the books, Dulinor would 
never have had a legal leg to stand on.  As it was, Dulinor only half-did the 
job.  If he'd taken out Lucan as well, the Rebellion might have been put off 
for a few more years, and it might not have gotten as violent and destructive 
as it did.  When Cleon the Mad was killed, he had no clear heir and no 
dynasty behind him.  Same for Nicholle, once Plankwell killed her and her 
immediate family.  But Strephon had plenty of heirs, both by direct lineage 
and by indirect lineage through his father, Paulo III.  That's what threw the 
monkey wrench into the jump drives.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 03:32:09 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: OT: coming to Boston area

Hi folks,

A bit OT but what the heck:

I'll be in the Boston area (Waltham, actually) for Readercon this weekend.
Not a gaming convention, of course, but a major SF-literature maven's
paradise. GOH is Harlan Ellison. Any other TMLers planning to attend?

I'll be doing panels on "Robot Lib", Canadian SF, and the work of Barry
Malzburg, and also giving a reading of my story "Thermometers Melting" (an
alternate history tale involving Hemingway, Trotsky, and the Halifax
Explosion of 1917).

Best,

 + GMG +

   ------------------------Glenn Grant------------------------
                         <neo@total.net>
    "Sex times Technology equals The Future." -- J.G. Ballard

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 03:10:54 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets

On 07/07/99 at 01:08 AM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>>>         In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
>>> your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
>>> power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       

> With MT, the VAST majority of your power requirements wil be the
>weapons,  particularly if you go with lasers. With a lowly triple
>laser turret  consuming a whopping 750MW, even the maneuver drive
>will start to fall behind.

> Figure out your weapon load and get a power figure for it. Get a
>power  requirement for your desired maneuver drive. Add the two
>together, add  another 10% to that, and install a powerplant to that
>spec. It'll be right an  awful lot of the time...

That's a good suggestion.

>>Except that all the spreadsheets I've seen are only for Excell, and I don't 
>use *any* M$ >products.

 While I haven't yet, I can certainly port my old (Excel 2.2) MT
>design  spreadsheet into ClarisWorks. From there, several exports are
>possible.  My  spreadsheet is primarily a calculation assistant
>instead of a wholesale  designer, which means you HAVE to have MT
>Ref's Manual open in front of you...

Keven, won't StarOffice's spreadsheet run the Excel sheets without
too many revisions?  Yes, it's big and chunky, but runs on Linux, is
free for personal use, and it's *not* from MS.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #826
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, July 7 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 827



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MT Spreadsheets 
Re:  A question about the Civil War
Re: Battledress
Re: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez'scomments)
Calling Bill Malone!!!
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (long)
Re: The War Against the Chtorr
Re: The War Against the Chtorr
Re: Versions 
Re: Battledress
Re: Versions
Re : Xenobiology 101 : posting to the Web
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr
Re: Rosettes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 04:21:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MT Spreadsheets 

> On 07/07/99 at 01:08 AM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:
> 
> >>>         In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
> >>> your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
> >>> power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       
> 
> > With MT, the VAST majority of your power requirements wil be the
> >weapons,  particularly if you go with lasers. With a lowly triple
> >laser turret  consuming a whopping 750MW, even the maneuver drive
> >will start to fall behind.
> 
> > Figure out your weapon load and get a power figure for it. Get a
> >power  requirement for your desired maneuver drive. Add the two
> >together, add  another 10% to that, and install a powerplant to that
> >spec. It'll be right an  awful lot of the time...
> 
> That's a good suggestion.
> 
> >>Except that all the spreadsheets I've seen are only for Excell, and I don't 
> >use *any* M$ >products.
> 
>  While I haven't yet, I can certainly port my old (Excel 2.2) MT
> >design  spreadsheet into ClarisWorks. From there, several exports are
> >possible.  My  spreadsheet is primarily a calculation assistant
> >instead of a wholesale  designer, which means you HAVE to have MT
> >Ref's Manual open in front of you...
> 
> Keven, won't StarOffice's spreadsheet run the Excel sheets without
> too many revisions?  Yes, it's big and chunky, but runs on Linux, is
> free for personal use, and it's *not* from MS.  ;->

No clue.  I tried using SO on some old Word 2.0 files I have laying around,
and it barfs bigtime.  Upside is, it works just fine with Word9x files.  I
haven't tried it on spreadsheets yet...

BTW, it took me like *14 hrs* to download the latest version.  73 megs at
14.4 *sucked*, lemme tell ya.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 01:26:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  A question about the Civil War

> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>

> Was it a period of prolonged interstellar warfare, with factions
> occasionally seizing Capitol, losing it and regrouping for another attempt,
> or was it a period of sporadic warfare, palace coups and quickly resolved
> mutinies?
> 
> The obvious answer is, of course, both, but what I am really interested in
> is the balance between them.

I understand that the warfare was primarily naval, and that the various
naval factions didn't try to destroy each others' sources of supply. 
That's the key difference between the Civil War and the Rebellion.  The
Civil War disrupted (and worse) a lot of Imperial member states, but it
didn't involve wholesale destruction of economies.  

One of the underlying reasons for the civility, if you will, of the
Civil War is that the citizens of the Imperium never really got engaged
for a number of reasons.  One important reason is that none of the
contending parties was trying to make any real changes in the way the
Imperium worked; they were just fighting over who would be the king of a
very rich hill.  The Rebellion, by contrast, was primarily about
regional forces pulling the Imperium apart.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 01:36:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress

> From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
> Subject: Re: Battledress

> Do you even need to-hit rolls anymore in BD?  Missiles can't get through and
> the firer is toast, RAM/RPG's can't get through and the user is toast.
> Snipers can't hurt it and the sniper is toast.  Consealed troops can't hide
> from it and are toast.  Mines cannot harm it (and I'm sure something will be
> toasted in the interim).  Sounds like exciting game mechanics to me!

Bravo!  I would only add that the manufacturer of mines can usually be
identified in some way, by label or peculiar characteristics of use. 
The battledress sensors would automatically record that information and,
at an appropriate time, transmit it back to the fleet, which would then
take the necessary steps to ensure that the manufacturers' facilities
would be made into toast.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 05:22:37 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101: Scaling laws, body plans, etc. (Peez'scomments)

"David J. Golden" wrote:
> 
> At 01:37 PM 7/6/99 +1000, you wrote:
> >P.S. All you other TMLers :- if you would like this stuff to move
> off
> >list, say so!!
> 
>         H*ll no! I'm just worried that (a) I'll never get the chance to
> actually sit down and read through the thread in detail, and (b) I've
> missed saving a particularly vital message to disk ...
> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
Don't worry Dave, I've been saving all but the "me too" types.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 05:27:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Calling Bill Malone!!!

Anybody seen Bill Malone around lately?  He's the 2nd to the last person to 
check in with me about my PBEM.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:30:18 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

> > > From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" 
> > > Canonically, the fight was just between different fleets.  A fleet
> > > would pull into a system, refuel, revictual, give the crews some
> > > shore leave, then head out again.  The 'locals' weren't involved
> > > beyond selling the fleets supplies. 
> > >  The Imperial bureacracy continued on, unimpeded and unmolested.  No
> > > fleet really had a 'power base' external to itself.
> > 
> > Canonically???  Where?  Reference?
> 
> I remember reading it in a JTAS or Challenge article someplace.  And
> IIRC, there was some mention about it in the Library Data LBBs.  

Of course I've been looking through the Library Data books, and the MT
Imperial Encyclopaedia.  Unfortunately there isn't a whole bunch of detail.
Well, that's probably a good thing, really, but it means for my current
purposes the answers aren't quite there.

If you can find the article you're remembering, it would be really handy. 
I don't have all the Journals and Challenges, so I may have missed
something, or I may have just forgotten something I have read.  Of course
the other possibility is it could be something from the 'Satanic Verses' -
DGP 'canon'.  I haven't got much of their stuff.

> > > > In any case, localised warfare can be safely assumed to be taking
> > > > place throughout the period, as local noble cliques take advantage
> > > > of the relative anarchy to destroy their rivals.  An example of
> > > > this would be Baron/Marquis/Duke Caranda's attack on Menorb.
> > > 
> > > More like, two fleets meet in space and fight until one withdraws. 
> > > Then the victors head for the planet to resupply and repair.
> > 
> > The Caranda reference is to the article on the 4518th Lift Infantry in
> > Journal #9, reprinted in Spinward Marches Campaign.
> 
> Thing about the Minorb campaign was, it wasn't an attempt to put Caranda
> on the Throne.  It was more like, stomping down somebody before they got
> the chance to do it first.  A pre-emptive strike.

The way it's described in the article, Caranda is a supporter of
Arbellatra, and the Menorb bureaucrats are aligned some other way.  This
is an example of one of the peripheral campaigns, where a faction
establishes and safeguards its power base.  In this example, it actually
occurred in 623 - after Arbellatra had seized Capitol.

It may also have been part of a localised power grab by Caranda.  This is
entirely compatible with him lining himself up with a more powerful patron.

 In fact, these local power struggles are probably the ones that a Civil
War period campaign would involve, since they are small enough for PC
groups to affect, they contribute to the bigger picture, and can in fact be
a microcosm of the overall struggle - a kind of 'bathtub' version of the
war.

And this is where traditions like that of the 4518th Lift Infantry come
from.  Strike From Space!

> The main crisis times, according to Library Data A-M, start in 475 with
> the assassination of Nicholle and the assumption of the Throne by Cleon
> IV.  Every Emperor's reign from 475 until Arbellatra was elected by the
> Moot was assassinated.  The one that lasted the longest was Cleon IV, who
> reigned from 475 until 555.  

I've drawn up a timeline for this period.  I arbitrarily started in 401, to
allow the inclusion of the Ilelish Revolt (418-435).  Yes, the crisis
started well before Olav's coup.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:23:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> (looking for the biggest terrestrial organisms)
> Walter Smith writes:
> "I'll guess...trees?"
>
> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Well, there are the redwoods. And then there are those multi-
> ton fungi they discovered a few years back."
>
> David J. Golden writes:
> "In-laws aside, I believe the "Quaking Aspen" spattered all 
> over Colorado mountains scores fairly high on the "size" chart. 
> No, not that dinky little tree. The entire single organism that 
> appears to *you* to be a huge grove of "dinky little trees," 
> but is in fact all part of the same organism."

Okay, then I have to mention the one I skipped originally. Creosote
bushes. If you check from the air, you'll find that they form various
sized *rings*. Turns out that those rings are all "one bush". I vaguely
recall that they found one several miles across.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:49:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (long)

In mail you write:

>         I have managed to find the original post, and I finally see
>         what it is you were trying to say. I appologize for not
>         understanding you, and I'm sorry that it has led to so much 
>         apparent hostility. When I read that post, I incorrectly
>         took your comments to refer to the immediately preceding
>         quoted text:
>
> "Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:46:03 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101
>
> In mail you write:
>
>> Probably not generalized, but just last night I saw a show on TLC
>> regarding a herpetologist who was quite surprised when his grown,
>> handraised female rattlesnake gave birth to a male offspring. Uhh, did I
>> mention that the snake in question had lived its entire life in a glass
>> aquarium in his lab out of contact with other snakes? They're waiting
>> for the male to reach sexual maturity to see if it is fertile. If so,
>> this has BIG implications for rattlesnake population studies...
>>
>> I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all reptiles, but
>> I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis _isn't_ more widespread in
>> reptile populations that we currently think...they're not exactly the
>> most well-studied critters on the planet...
>
> Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce *female*
> offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother doesn't have
> any Y chromosomes). 

Apology accepted. But I still don't see how you could contrue the above
as any sort of attempt to say that males were involved in
parthogenesis. I was basicly inplying "If you are producing male
offspring, it ain't parthogenesis".

> in our other
> big "debate" I keep talking about the limits on exoskeletal creatures
> that "breathe" via spiracles (or "trachea" as you started calling
> them). You keep dragging in stuff like book lungs. Or I talk about
> size without actually *specifying* "maximum 'minimum distance to
> surface'" in that post though I'd been quite specific about it in
> previous posts, and you go on about length, mass, and wingspan, none of
> which relate to the sort of "size" I'd already established that we were
> talking about."
>
>         As I have tried to explain, spiracles are the openings in the
>         cuticle that lead into the trachea.

Actually, I don't recall you mentioning that, but I'll take your word
for it.

My reason for avoiding "trachea" is that trachea are not *just* "blind
tubes from which gases diffuse into the internal tissues" (that *is*
what they are in insects, right?). 

They also are the passages carrying air to lungs. And I was
*specifically* trying to exclude lungs.

>         This is not something that
>         I made up, I am trying to share such knowledge of entomology
>         as I have. Book lungs are the site of gas exchange in spiders.
>         I mentioned them because you had added spiders to the 
>         discussion. I brought up various measures of size because I
>         wasn't sure which one you meant. Length is important if gas
>         exchange only takes place through specific locations. For 
>         example, the tissues in an insect's legs must get their O2
>         (eventually) through the spiracles in its thorax.

I only brought in spiders to show that since they *didn't* use the
mechanism I was discussing, they *weren't* subject to the same limits. 

I think part of the problem is that you know "too much". :-) you go
with a technical use, even when a non-technical one was intended.

The most frustrating thing in all this was trying to find *some* word
or short phrase to use to refer to the type of breathing I was talking
about. "Breathe like insects" didn't work because I immediately got hit
with "you won't find insects in other evolutionary trees". 

Trachea have the problems described above. And refering to spiracles
(which I thought referred to the hole *and* the tubules) led to yet
another mess. 

About the only thing I haven't tried (partly because it is *too*
imprecise) is "diffusion breathing". 

> "As I said in the beginning on the "size of 'insects'" bit. My reading
> says that there's a limit of about an inch for the distance to the
> surface for spiracle based respiration. I'd welcome a better figure, or
> even range of figures."
>
>         This is just what I have been trying to give you. We do not
>         know what the limits are, and I have been trying to give you
>         a sense of that.

The thing is, I've *seen* the "about an inch" *given* as a limit
somewhere. I just don't recall where, except that it was in the sort of
context where you'd expect the author to know what he's talking about. 

> "But why should I have to keep repeating things like "maximum 'minimum
> distance to surface'" when I've already stated (many times) that this
> is what I meant by "size". Or go thru the "no, I'm *not* talking about
> book lungs" bit every post when that *too* has been stated several
> times."
>
>         Because I could not think of any reason to expect that a spider
>         of a given weight had a lower "maximum, minimum distance to
>         surface" than an insect of the same weight, I was looking for 
>         clarification. As you were talking about spiders, you were
>         talking about book lungs, whether you knew it or not. Rather
>         than ask about it, you chose to complain about it.

<sigh> As noted above, I was using a spider as an example of an
"similar" organism *not* subject to the limit *because* it used a
different mechanism for breathing.

And again, I *really* don't see how you could have seen it as anything
else. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:11:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor writes:
> <snipped>
> "This idea seems a little fishy to me (in the absence of genetic
> engineering) ; I'll leave it to 'Peez' Ferguson to comment on 
> 'The War Against the Chtorr'."
>
>         I'm afraid that I haven't read that one. What was it about?

It's a *series* of 4 published books, and who knows how many
unpublished. The published books certainly don't *finish* anything. 

The basic idea is that there's a plague early next century, and as we
are recovering from that, various obvious *non*-Terran animals and
plants start showing up in various places around the globe. And either
taking over or destroying the eco-systems they are in. 

Best guess is that it's a bio-war based attempt by aliens to wipe
humanity out and "Chtorr-form" Earth so they can colonize it.

The name for the aliens (Chtorran) comes from the sound made by the
first one of the species that looks like it *might* be intelligent. 
A sort of caterpillar/centipede/worm critter that's several meters
long and at least a meter in diameter. And makes a shark look anorexic.
They also move like a Grendel on speed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:18:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The War Against the Chtorr

In mail you write:

>> Robert O'Connor writes:
>> <snipped>
>> "This idea seems a little fishy to me (in the absence of genetic
>> engineering) ; I'll leave it to 'Peez' Ferguson to comment on 
>> 'The War Against the Chtorr'."
>> 
>>       I'm afraid that I haven't read that one. What was it about?
>
> I'm just wondering if the 5th book in the series ever came out.
>
> Great series, btw.  And no, I'm *NOT* a Modie.

Yeah, I *do* kind of enjoy Gerrold's comments on the human conditiion,
even if they require that some of the main characters be *real* jerks. 

But more than that, I've gotten interested in the *puzzle*. What *is*
going on. Will humanity get absorbed? Destroyed? Triumph? And *why* is
all this going on?

But the likeliest explanation *does* seem to be that Earth has wound up
on the wrong end of a "terraforming".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:47:50 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Versions 

At 10:49 PM 7/6/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> 
>>         In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
>> your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
>> power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       
>
>Except that all the spreadsheets I've seen are only for Excell, and I don't
use *any* M$ products.
>
>Keven
>

        There are a couple of good XWindows spreadsheet programs that will
allow this sort of thing.  Heck, worse comes to worst, get a copy of Perfect
Office for Linux and use the spreadsheet package that comes with it, which
is just as feature rich as Excel.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:05:52 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>Why make it so much bigger and badder if all that does is make it usable
>against much weaker foes, if with each upgrade of the armour, a GM is
>compelled to instigate newer weapons to handle it?  I mean, are you going to
>give the PC the new version of the "SuperBD" and let them use it for an
>in-game year untill the enemy introduces a weapon that takes it out?  Sounds
>like great fun playing an invulnerable character for that time, no
>challenge, no chance of being harmed... well, maybe it doesn't.  At least in
>CT, BD was more even.  You were at least vulnerable and needed it, perhaps
>to stand a chance on the battle field, not invulnerable and able to
>withstand EVERYTHING on the battle field.  But who cares about playability?
>
>--  The Roc
>
        Hi!
        IMHO, one thing to keep in mind is that BD is a *weapons system*.
The M1 Abrhams was not built to give the Bad Guys a fair shake.  It was
designed to kick the $hit out of whatever was stupid enough to stick around
to fight.  The objective of combat is "to destroy the enemy or his will to
fight".  Note the second half of that.
        If the fireteam sees the BD Trooper moving in on them and puts up
their hands because they know they can't win, then *that* is a properly
designed set of BD.  If they say "hmmm....  we've got 30% odds of taking him
, theres 4 of us, *he's* screwed...  Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba-BLAM" then that is *not* a
properly designed set of BD.
        If you are concerned about playability, what are your players doing
in BD *anyway*?  That's like complaining that the Trepidia they are a crew
of is too tough?
        And if a BD Trooper goes nose to nose with a Trepida, I would expect
his next of kin to recieve a "The Imperium Regrets to Inform You.." message
by X-Boat.  That's reasonable...  BD aren't Trepida, and non-BD infantry are
not BD Troopers.  A BD Trooper ought to have a weapon capable of
mission-killing other BD, if only because if he does not he is reliant on
support systems which limit the usefulness of BD as an assault or
storm-attack tool.  This might lead to an arms race...  just like in the
RealWorld(tm). 
        If your players are in the buisness of wearing BD or killing BD,
then they are part of that arms race and if they aren't shelling out the MCr
to stay on top of it, then they get whacked.  There is considerable game
balance there...  they have to pay top credit to stay alive, which means
they either pick tickets that don't require dealing in or with BD, or they
pick tickets too dangerous enough for anything *but* BD.  I don't see that
as a problem, so long as they have to work within that framework.
        If somehow they wind up outside it, in BD that they cannot be
threatened for example, then I would suggest that it is the GM has to find
out how they got there.  Not the rules author.
        Again, JMHO.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:22:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Versions

>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>
>> Easy. You use iterative design, a real-world procoess that most gamers seem
>> to have a rabid fear of. :-/
>
>Oh, it has a name?  Cool.  I realized early on that that was how I had
>to design anything in, e.g., Striker but I always just thought of it as
>the pain in the neck I had to endure to make my designs useful.
>
>--Glenn

Yup, it's got a name.

(I thought you were in engineering. Am I mixing you up with another Glenn?)

I teach iterative design in my Analysis and Design class, using Traveller
rules as the vehicle (because they are a _lot_ simpler than the real world).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:32:52 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : posting to the Web

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"4. Ecology
- - - miscellaneous points not covered elsewhere"

	Those poor ecologists don't get no respect :)

	This category may include behaviour (social interactions,
	communication, hunting tactics, etc.), population biology
	(predator-prey relationships, competition, population
	levels, etc.), nutrient cycling (carbon, nitrogen, etc.),
	primary productivity (just how much biomass is likely for
	a given energy input?), evolution (what are the basic 
	principals that are thought to determine what sort of 
	organisms will be found?), and miscellaneous points not 
	covered elsewhere.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:55:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr

In mail you write:

>> The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
>> Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
>> better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
>> the absence of design?
>> 
>> The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.
>> 
>> My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
>> as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.
>> 
>> Thoughts? Constructive comments?
>
> I can see this happening.  An ecosystem that is half a billion years older 
> than ours would have an extra half billion years worth of experience 
> adapting to ever increasing evolutionary pressure.  After all, how old is 
> our ecosystem?  Two, three billion years?

Depends on whether you count from the beginning of life, or from the
beginning of multi-cellular life.

I think the intent in the Chtorr stories is that if you take two
species that have similar "niches" but where one has been defending
said niche against all comers for a few hundred million years and the
other hasn't had to fight for it as much, or hasn't occupied it more
than a million years or so, guess which will win.

From the evidence of things like Australia, and various isolated
islands, the more "advanced" critter will wipe out the less advanced
one in short order. 

And the differences can be pretty "minor". Placental predators like
dogs and cats wiped out marsupial predators all over Australia and
Tasmania. Partly it was reproductive efficiency, and partly it was
coming from a "tougher" eco-system.

And it's that "tougher ecosystem" part that is likely most important. 

There *are* lots of niches where critters survive by adapting to the
niche by *losing* abilities. Tapeworms are an extreme example of this. 

But more "general" categories (like the ones in the Traveller animal
encounter tables) tend to overlap and have a lot of competition.
*Those* are where you look for critters to use in eco-warfare. 

Predators who are *really* nasty. Herbivores who've evolved nasty
defences. Plants that poison their competition.

One critter I recall from the books had apparently taken the "cuckoo"
strategy even farther. It somehow (pheromones?) was *more* attractive
to mammalian mothers than their *real* offspring. So not only was it
more likely to get nursed, but it made better use of the milk, and
could induce the mother to speend more time than it should nursing. End
result is the true babies starve and the *mother* becomes less able to
survive. I think they were *able* to eat "real" food fairly earlier,
but kept nursing as long as they could "force" the mother to. Then,
when she was too weak (from the combo of producing all that milk and
not doing enough foraging) they'd eat her.

Nasty, but one *hell* of a way to eliminate competition, if you can
pull it off.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:12:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr

In mail you write:

> The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
> Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
> better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
> the absence of design?
>
> The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.
>
> My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
> as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.

As I noted in response to someone else, it doesn't necessarily work
that way. 

You *do* get more critters in specialized niches. But there's a limit
on that. The more specialized your niche, the more likely it is to be
limited in extent, or to not always be available. 

The main thrust of the larger organisms is to be able to survive better
in a fairly *broad* niche. This tends to require a moderate degree of
adaptability. It also tends to require the ability to stand off all
comers who want to occupy that same niche.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:47:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Rosettes

In mail you write:

> "Three or more equal masses (worlds) set at the points of an equilateral 
> polygon, and with the correct equal angular velocities about their center of
> masses, will have a stable orbital configuration. The group does not require
> a central star. Rosettes almost never occur naturally." -- Traveller Library
> Data
>
> Can a rosette that has no central star (or other gravity well) have a
> null-gravity (la grange) point(s)?

Maybe, but I rather doubt it.

BTW, Lagrange points *aren't* "null gravity". The L1, L2 & L3 points
are local *maxima* in the curvature of space (think of them as sort of
"hills" with round tops).

L4 and L5 are local minima of a sort. Sort of like "saddle" curves.

And part of the stability of *all* the points is due to the motion of
the primary and secondary bodies. 

I *do* know that "trojan points" (L4 & L5) disappear rather suddenly as
the ratio of the mass of the primary to the secondary drops below some
point (20:1?). They do *not* exist if the bodies are the same size (ie
a 2 body "rosette"). 

There might be an L1 type point at the center. And in the case of only
2 bodies forming the rosette there might be a point *beyond* each body
along the line joining their centers. But I wouldn't bet on either.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #827
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, July 7 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 828



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : The War Against the Chtorr (long)
Readercon in Waltham, MA
re: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr
Re: Xenobiology 101 (long)
RE: Battledress
Re : The War Against the Chtorr
Re: Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)
Re: Battledress
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #796
Re: versions
Re: versions
Re: Battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: A question about the Civil War
Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: Battledress
RE: Battledress
Re: Versions
re: Battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: Versions
Re: A question about the Civil War

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:25:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : The War Against the Chtorr (long)

Robert O'Connor writes:
"The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) 
necessarily fare better in a new environment with 'younger' 
flora and fauna (Earthly), in the absence of design?

The implication is that adaptability improves with age of 
ecosystem.

My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is 
more likely as lineages move to fill ever more specialised 
niches with time.

Thoughts? Constructive comments?"

	This is a toughy. Natural selection will tend to produce
	organisms that are well suited to a particular 
	environment. That environment includes the other 
	organisms in it. Environments on Terra have changed over
	time, so that organisms well suited to their environment
	now might have a great deal of difficulty competing with
	Jurasic organisms in some Jurasic environments. On the
	other hand, some evolved traits have proved to be 
	advantageous over a broad range of environments.

	For example, placental mammals (those that feed their 
	offspring through a placenta) appear to be more efficient
	at reproduction than marsupials ("pouched" mammals) or
	monotremes (egg-laying mammals). For that reason, just 
	about everywhere that placental mammals have been able to 
	get to, they have replaced the other groups. On the other
	hand, the opposum has successfully competed in the 
	Americas.

	An interesting process that may be important is the 
	"evolutionary arms race." This occurs when one species
	evolves a trait that helps it to compete with (or eat
	or escape) another species, then the second species
	evolves a trait to overcome the first, and the first
	species evolves another trait... For example, a 
	parasitic worm infests certain fish as they feed on
	plants. This imposes selection favouring fish that can
	see and avoid the worms on the plants, which selects 
	for worms that are more difficult to see. Perhaps an
	improvement to the fish's immune system aids it in
	killing the infestation, then the worm evolves skin
	proteins that make it difficult to detect...

	The longer that a biosphere has been evolving ("long"
	in terms of number of generations), the more time that 
	it will have had to 'come up with' new adaptations that
	would give organisms an advantage over previous ones.
	A higher mutation rate could also increase the number of
	potential adaptations available. Nevertheless, moving 
	into a new ecosystem in which you have not evolved is
	likely to be difficult. It is also possible that, just by
	chance, a younger biosphere will have 'come up with' some
	important adaptations that never evolved in an older one.
	In addition, if an immigrant species has to compete
	directly with a native species that fills a very similar
	'niche,' the native one has a big advantage in being 
	already well-suited to its environment and well-established 
	in numbers.

	We often hear about species that are invading new areas on 
	Terra (rabbits in Australia, Dutch Elm Disease in North 
	America, etc.), but we don't hear about the many species
	that are no doubt introduced but do not survive in their
	new home. I would suggest that, in general, the number of
	species that can successfully invade a new environment is
	much smaller than the number that cannot, but that species
	from 'longer' evolutionary trees may often have an 
	advantage.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:27:12 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Readercon in Waltham, MA

OK, I'll bite.  Got any more details on this? A URL perhaps?  I'm in the 
Boston area and am interested in showing up.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:26:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Upper Sizes of Ships

Garry Ward wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU is a mega corp known as Star Services, Inc. One subsidary company is
Star Security Services. One technique used thereby is call a "Burn Down".
After clearing a planet of major air defenses, the Security Cruisers align
in orbit north and south of the equator at several kilometer intervals, and
drop speed just enough to decelerate into the atmosphere. They don't slow
much, just enough to survive the massive fire trail and sonic effect. No
real physical damage done to the planet, but the psychological effect the
skies on fire and seemingly endless rolling thunder has certainly improved
the sense of co operation the locals have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's a pretty mega megacorp, if they can put several thousand
security cruisers into one operation. That's what it would take to 
put a cruiser every couple kilometers in orbit around an average
world.

How many ships does YTU Imperial Navy invest into a sector fleet?
Or do they just subcontract out to the megacorps?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 07:38:31 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
> > Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
> > better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
> > the absence of design?
> >
> > The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.
> >
> > My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
> > as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.
> >
> > Thoughts? Constructive comments?
> 
> I can see this happening.  An ecosystem that is half a billion years older than ours would have an extra half billion years worth of experience adapting to ever increasing evolutionary pressure.  After all, how old is our ecosystem?  Two, three billion years?
> 

Ecosystems do not 'get experience'. Ecosystems simply are. The various life
forms filling the niches of those systems may be more or less adaptable, but
that's true no matter the ages of the system. Ecosystems change, sometimes
gradually, sometimes catastrophically, but there's no accumulated
'evolutionary experience'. As proof of that look at the various mass
extinctions that have occurred here.

The earths ecosystem 2-3 billion years ago would be, in Traveller terms, an
insidious, exotic atmosphere with no hydrosphere. 200 million years ago, most
of the worlds land masses were tropical or semitropical. 30,000 years ago the
Earth's ecosphere was a marked division between warm equatorial regions and
ice-locked northern and southern regions, with a tiny, moving temperate zone
in between. We seem to be moving towards a hotter ecosystem today, which may
or may not be influenced by human activity.

Species that have become adaptable enough to survive mass extinctions, on a
geological scale are 'more fit' but in the time frame of conscious human
activity no evolution takes place. If the older ecosystem fluctuates widely in
conditions on a human time scale, then a sentient evolved in that ecosystem is
going to be more adaptable than humans, but it has nothing to do with the age
of the ecosystem, only that it's been around long enough to evolve humans (or Chtorr).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 11:01:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (long)

Leonard Erickson writes:
"My reason for avoiding "trachea" is that trachea are not 
*just* "blind tubes from which gases diffuse into the internal 
tissues" (that *is* what they are in insects, right?).

They also are the passages carrying air to lungs. And I was
*specifically* trying to exclude lungs."


	I agree that it is useful to take pains to avoid confusion
	with typical terrestrial vertebrate 'trachea.' Yes, insect
	trachea are essentially blind tubes. To be more precise, 
	insects have a system of trachea that are joined by 
	'trunks' which run through the body, and split into fine
	tracheoles that are filled with water. Gas exchange 
	actually takes place primarily through the tracheoles.

"I only brought in spiders to show that since they *didn't* use 
the mechanism I was discussing, they *weren't* subject to the 
same limits."

	I discussed spiders further because they don't seem to
	be bigger than insects in any way. Just as an aside,
	the openings into spider 'book lungs' are called
	spiracles. Also, some spiders do have trachea, but 
	the 'book lungs' are thought to be more important.

"I think part of the problem is that you know "too much". :-) 
you go with a technical use, even when a non-technical one 
was intended."

	Please tell me when I do this (its an occupational
	hazard).

<snipped>
> "As I said in the beginning on the "size of 'insects'" bit. My reading
> says that there's a limit of about an inch for the distance to the
> surface for spiracle based respiration. I'd welcome a better figure, or
> even range of figures."
>
>         This is just what I have been trying to give you. We do not
>         know what the limits are, and I have been trying to give you
>         a sense of that.

"The thing is, I've *seen* the "about an inch" *given* as a 
limit somewhere. I just don't recall where, except that it was 
in the sort of context where you'd expect the author to know 
what he's talking about."

	I have no doubt that there is a strict limit on simple
	diffision, and I have also read apparently reliable
	sources that claimed similar limits on the size of 
	organisms with insect-like respiration systems. We now
	understand more about insect respiration than we did,
	and I fear that poor judgement was used in certain 
	claims made by biologists about limitations on size.
	Terrestrial dinosaurs are the classic case, we now are
	confident that even the largest dinosaurs walked on land
	and did not require water to support their weight (as
	some had suggested).

<snipped>
"And again, I *really* don't see how you could have seen it 
as anything else. :-("

	This, if I may be so bold, is often the problem in
	communication. Both of us cannot imagine how the other
	could have interpreted our words differently than 
	intended.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:07:21 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

As far as I know the marine unit was part of the typical marine force in the
Spinward Marches at the time of the Fifth Frontier War.

Also just because a TOE says a marine unit is supposed to have battle dress
does not mean that it has yet been delivered or even ordered for a specific
unit. Its in the procurement pipeline. Its on its way, the shipments been
delayed. Another unit in more urgent need got it etc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 11:13:33 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : The War Against the Chtorr

Leonard Erickson writes:
"> My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
> as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.

As I noted in response to someone else, it doesn't necessarily 
work that way.

You *do* get more critters in specialized niches. But there's a 
limit on that. The more specialized your niche, the more likely 
it is to be limited in extent, or to not always be available.

The main thrust of the larger organisms is to be able to survive 
better in a fairly *broad* niche. This tends to require a moderate 
degree of adaptability. It also tends to require the ability to 
stand off all comers who want to occupy that same niche."

	Many species on Terra have rather broad niches, while
	others are very specialized. I am not aware of any trend 
	in body size with respect to specialization (which does
	not mean that no such trend exists), but ecologists are
	still trying to understand the forces that determine 
	specialization. One general principal that is widely 
	accepted (but certainly not well-tested) is that more
	specialized organisms are more efficient within their
	niche than less specialized ones. For example, a
	predator that feeds exclusively on mice is probably
	more efficient at feeding on mice than one that feeds on 
	mice, fish, berries, etc. The one with a broader diet has
	the advantage of being able to switch food sources if one
	becomes rare. Generally, long-term stability in the
	environment (over millions of years) might be expected to
	produce more specialized niches, while highly variable
	environments might be associated with broader niches.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:42:09 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)

Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial X-files (was  Battledress)
>
>Oh come now, this is *much* more fun if we throw in the "evil megacorps".
>Think of it, in the opening days of FFW, an LSP courier, with the regional
>manager on board, is captured.  LSP is of course highly motivated for his
>return, and knows it will get little support from the 3I.  Enter the PCs:
>"We just need you to make a delivery, and pick up some passengers..."
>Thinking they will be safely removed from the war zone, our PCs happily
>oblige.  Then we throw in all sorts of fun complications- the 3I found out,
>a competitor Megacorp finds out, and either uses the info as blackmail,
>tries to get the manager themselves, etc, etc.

And if you're really, really mean have the regional manager actually be a
Zho agent and let the PCs' rescue attempt interfere with the Imperium's
attempt to recapture said enemy agent.

Can you say "High Treason"?

Of course, such a GM screw should be used only if the campaign is being
shut down or the players *really* like a challenge.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> >Subject: Re: Battledress
> ...
> >in 1979.  Held 444 days.  Released on January 20, 1981, IIRC.  A few minutes
> >after Reagan was inaugerated.
> 
>   Somewhat odd that the Iranian student revolutionaries* had such a fine
> sense of humour when it came to needlessly insulting the outgoing leader
> (who is called much worse by his own system, e.g. a lame duck), but had
> not the least clue that they had made themselves and their country radically
> unpopular by violating accepted norms of diplomatic behaviour.

um, "lame duck" is a standard term to describe any officeholder who has
been voted out of office but has not yet left it (between election day and
inauguration day.) And the delay of the release of the hostages' timing
had more to do with the secret weapons deal they struck with the
Republicans than a desire to insult Carter.

ObTrav: The ruling party of a democracy faced with a political crisis
(like a hostage situation) hires the party to sabotage ongoing
negotiations by the ruling party's opposition, who plan to resolve the
crisis and come out heroes before the upcoming election, or at least
prevent the ruling party from resolving the crisis.

The team are equipped for infiltration/sabotage: whether it turns into a
non-combat sabotage fest or a huge bloodbath (Let's sabotage their
negotiations with howitzer rounds!) is up to the GM and the players...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:45:22 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #796

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Dynamicly stable is stuff that's stable *only* because it is moving.
For example, when you walk, your center of gravity is ahead of your
feet. You are continually "falling" forward, but placing your feet so
as to keep from completing the fall.

- - -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>>>> (end quoted material)
And of course flying is just falling, but continually missing the
ground.  This bit of information coming from the Hitchhiker's Guide to
the Galaxy series of course.
(Sorry if this has been covered, I am only 34 digests behind).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:58:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: versions

Boris Cibic writes:
> First let me say the politically correct thing that all versions have merit
>  and could only be great if they could be incorporated into one game 
> system...are you listening Marc (T5 hopefully will reflect the diversity of
>  the Traveller universe).  GURPS has done an admirable job in filling
> source  material from the twenty years and hopefully will continue to so but
> the  rules are akward and do not allow for fly-by-the-seat of your pants
> role  playing.  But hey! The putting together all this information from
> twenty  years is admirable until referees can purchase the SMART and AAB on 
> CD-Rom...

Heh.  GURPS is only awkward if you aren't familiar with the system.  'Seat of
the pants' roleplaying is mostly a matter of familiarity with rules and
willingness to ignore them when necessary, which is as true in GURPS as in any
other system.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:58:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: versions

Boris Cibic writes:
> First let me say the politically correct thing that all versions have merit
>  and could only be great if they could be incorporated into one game 
> system...are you listening Marc (T5 hopefully will reflect the diversity of
>  the Traveller universe).  GURPS has done an admirable job in filling
> source  material from the twenty years and hopefully will continue to so but
> the  rules are akward and do not allow for fly-by-the-seat of your pants
> role  playing.  But hey! The putting together all this information from
> twenty  years is admirable until referees can purchase the SMART and AAB on 
> CD-Rom...

Heh.  GURPS is only awkward if you aren't familiar with the system.  'Seat of
the pants' roleplaying is mostly a matter of familiarity with rules and
willingness to ignore them when necessary, which is as true in GURPS as in any
other system.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:21:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battledress

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Battledress
...
>by X-Boat.  That's reasonable...  BD aren't Trepida, and non-BD infantry are
>not BD Troopers.  A BD Trooper ought to have a weapon capable of
>mission-killing other BD, if only because if he does not he is reliant on
>support systems which limit the usefulness of BD as an assault or
>storm-attack tool.  This might lead to an arms race...  just like in the
>RealWorld(tm). 

  There's some concern that the GURPS design rules are too friendly to mecha
and battlesuits; the G:T vision of mini-mecha BD certainly seems to be both
far more powerful and ridiculously more survivable than in CT.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Steven Hudson writes:

>   There's some concern that the GURPS design rules are too friendly to
>   mecha 
> and battlesuits; the G:T vision of mini-mecha BD certainly seems to be both
> far more powerful and ridiculously more survivable than in CT.
> 
They're moderately friendly to mecha and battlesuits, but not dreadfully so. 
The reason GT battlesuits look tough is that GTL 12 'advanced laminate armor'
is about 5x stronger, weight for weight, than bonded superdense (the 'advanced
metal' which tanks have is only about 3x stronger; the 'expensive metal' used
in starship armor is about 2x stronger)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:29:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War

At 11:41 AM 7/7/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Was it a period of prolonged interstellar warfare, with factions
>occasionally seizing Capitol, losing it and regrouping for another attempt,
>or was it a period of sporadic warfare, palace coups and quickly resolved
>mutinies?

IMTU, the Civil War was a war of the Admirals.  Since the Imperial
bureaucracy managed to keep rolling, I have to assume that the large scale
dislocations of the Rebellion never happened.

Since several Barracks Emperors were enthroned by "Moot vote", I'd say the
battles were a mixture of intrigue and actual fleet actions.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:43:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Adventure Seed (was: Battledress)

At 01:05 PM 7/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Except this fails the common sense test...why on EARTH would the
>Ayatollas wanted Reagan, he of the rattling saber, in power? 

To humiliate Carter.  Hey, No one ever said that the people running the
Islamic Revolution were overly smart.

>Reagan would have had ample reason to order a large-scale military attack
>on Iran, which would put them down as well as rattle the saber right on
>Russia's doorstep. (who would have been loathe to support the Irani
>regime too much, given their existing quagmire in Afghanistan)

Except that the Iranians hated the Soviets almost as much as the US.  And
vast portions of the former Soviet Union were inhabited by Persian-decended
Muslims.  Having a President how believed that Communism was the ultimate
evil helped distract the Russians, allowing the Revolutionary Council to
stir trouble in the Islamic SSRs.

Amazing the things you learned with a security clearance in the mid-80s.
- -- 

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|  111     Embrace Fascism.     111  |
|  |||  The uniforms look cool  |||  |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:35:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

At 03:02 AM 7/7/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I remember reading it in a JTAS or Challenge article someplace.  And IIRC, 
>there was some mention about it in the Library Data LBBs.  It started when 
>Olav hault-Plankwell, Grand Admiral of the Marches, decided to march on the 
>Capital after winning the First Frontier War practically unsupported by the 
>Imperium due to communications lag times and general unpreparedness for the 
>war.  He forced an audience with Jaqueline I and personally shot her, 
>proclaiming himself Emperor by right of fleet control.

No, he proclaimed himself Emperor by right of Assassination, an important
distinction.

The right of assassination had been used before, to remove Cleon the Mad.
The rules stated that the assassin had to do the job personally and be of
high noble rank.  

The right of Fleet Control was a polite fiction coined by historians for
those circumstances when a pretender orbited Capital and threatened to slag
the Moot unless given the Throne.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 09:56:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress

At 02:51 PM 7/7/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Do you even need to-hit rolls anymore in BD?  Missiles can't get through and
>the firer is toast, RAM/RPG's can't get through and the user is toast.
>Snipers can't hurt it and the sniper is toast.  Consealed troops can't hide
>from it and are toast.  Mines cannot harm it (and I'm sure something will be
>toasted in the interim).  Sounds like exciting game mechanics to me!

We keep coming back to this point.

Look, there exists today the M1A2 Main Battle Tank.  It is bloody
nigh-invulnerable.  It's main gun can shred the frontal armor of most OPFOR
vehicles with ease.  It does over 60mph cross-country.

Just because it exists, does not mean that a character in a modern-day
Espionage game will have one.  And if he does every see one, he better pray
that it's on his side!

Outside a military campaign, these things should never, ever show up.  The
AD&D equivalent would be a Lich with the Hand and Eye of Vecna wield the
Rod of Seven Parts.  The average PC group will be severely outclassed.

>Why make it so much bigger and badder if all that does is make it usable
>against much weaker foes, if with each upgrade of the armour, a GM is
>compelled to instigate newer weapons to handle it?  I mean, are you going to
>give the PC the new version of the "SuperBD" and let them use it for an
>in-game year untill the enemy introduces a weapon that takes it out?  Sounds
>like great fun playing an invulnerable character for that time, no
>challenge, no chance of being harmed... well, maybe it doesn't.  At least in
>CT, BD was more even.  You were at least vulnerable and needed it, perhaps
>to stand a chance on the battle field, not invulnerable and able to
>withstand EVERYTHING on the battle field.  But who cares about playability?

Classic Traveller was last published in 1986.  That's thirteen years ago.
If you want to play Classic, fine.   Have fun.

But in GURPS, you can build excellent armor.  The design I'm building has
850 points of armor on the torso and head, somewhat less on the arms and
legs.  That will still allow a penetrating hit by a FGMP-12 about 10-15% of
the time.  As an exercise, I shot my armor with a AP round from a M1A2, and
it shredded the armor.  So just get a TL7 tank and you're set.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:00:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Battledress

At 11:07 PM 7/7/99 +0800, you wrote:

>Also just because a TOE says a marine unit is supposed to have battle dress
>does not mean that it has yet been delivered or even ordered for a specific
>unit. Its in the procurement pipeline. Its on its way, the shipments been
>delayed. Another unit in more urgent need got it etc.

Battledress has been a standard part of the Imperial Military for over a
thousand years.  I seriously doubt there's be any problem outfitting any
unit that required it as part of their TO&E.

Combat replacements is another issue, but since century old starships seem
to be canon, I imagine that BD can be moth balled if the need arises.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:08:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

At 05:44 PM 7/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Then again, it's sometimes fun to design a less than optimum ship. I've
>deliberately "underpowered" ships. Built them to non-armed specs then
>added weapons. Makes it more fun when an engineer has to re-route power
>from another system to get the laser to fire!

One of my favorite things about FFS is designing underpowered ships.

"OK, were about to take off, so turn off the internal compensators so we
can power up the CG drive.  Sound 'strap down stations'!"
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 19:11:53 CEST
From: Patrik "Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Battledress

>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 23:37:25 -0700
>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: re: Battledress

>Moreover, many restrictions on private ownership of military-grade
>weapons only arose in the last two centuries, when small arms and >light 
>crew-served weapons became efficient at killing large numbers >of people. 
>(See The Social History of the Machine Gun, a great book >that I read about 
>20 years ago; I've forgotten the author.)

Going to the storeroom I see that is John Ellis. ISBN 0-7126-5669-3
Definitely worth the 99p I paid for it in London a couple of years back.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Douglas E. Berry writes:
>> 
> But in GURPS, you can build excellent armor.  The design I'm building has
> 850 points of armor on the torso and head, somewhat less on the arms and
> legs.  That will still allow a penetrating hit by a FGMP-12 about 10-15% of
> the time.  As an exercise, I shot my armor with a AP round from a M1A2, and
> it shredded the armor.  So just get a TL7 tank and you're set.

Nah, get a 60mm TL 9 antitank rocket.  Does 6d*15(10), since its laminate we
only divide DR by 5, total of average 315 pts against effective DR 170. 
Including the launcher, about a 6 lb system.  60mm electromag grenade launcher
is also viable -- same damage, 1.1 lb per shot plus 6.5 lb for the gun, range
440 yards.  I have TL 8 battlesuit designs (not designed for GT) which have a
chance of killing TL 12 BD (not a very good chance...but its 4 TLs lower, what
do you expect?)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 10:05:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

> (I thought you were in engineering. Am I mixing you up with another Glenn?)

Yes, you must be.  I'm Glenn Goffin, the lawyer.  There are at least two
other Glenns on the list.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:31:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War

>I'd like people's opinion on the following:
>
>How sustained was the fighting during the Civil War?

[snip]

>In short, what happened?  Was it a period of murderous intrigues, or a
>'real' war, like the Rebellion?
>
>Alan Bradley
>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

I'd go with the former, because (a) the bureaucracy continued to function,
and (b) if you want a period of sustained nasty warfare you can use the
Rebellion, so making the Civil War something else broadens the scope for
adventure. (There, one canon reason, one gaming reason.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #828
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, July 7 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 829



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
Streiftog-class Destroyer (GTL9)
Lyn-class Light Fighter (GTL9)
Re: Battledress
Re: Versions
Re: Battledress
Re: Readercon in Waltham, MA
Re: OT: coming to Boston area
'Sane' battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: Versions 
[OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault
Re: Battledress
Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
Kjerre-class Freighter (GTL9 & 10)
Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
Re: A question about the Civil War

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:31:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

A formidable ship by local standards, the Slakter class is typical of Sword
World navies before the Fifth Frontier War. Armed with a spinal particle
accelerator and massive missile batteries, carrying eight squadrons of
fighters, and armoured against all GTL9 turret weapons, it is ideally
suited to the set-piece battles so common in the Sword Worlds' internecine
wars.

Against Imperial Navy warships, the Slakter is woefully outclassed. Too
slow to run and too thin-skinned to survive even long-range sniping, it
became known as the "slagheap" to Imperial gunners-who claimed that it
wasn't challenging enough for a practice target.

Crew: 4 bridge crew, 40 engineers, 46 gunners, 120 auxiliary crew

10000-ton USL Hull, DR 2000, PD 4, Total compartmentalization, 15 Turrets
with 3 lasers each, 15 Turrets with 3 sandcasters each, 7 Missile Bays,
Spinal Particle Beam, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking, Hardened
Command Bridge, Engineering, 1200 Fusion Rocket, 200 Jump, 1000 Fuel, 2800
Rocket Fuel (1.4 hours), 5 Fuel Processors (25.0 hours), Stateroom, 14
Bunkrooms (224 personnel), 20 Utility, 80 Vehicle Bays (40 Lyn Light
Fighters, 40 Helm Fighters), 93.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
45 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450
km, FP 2
Spinal Particle Beam: Imp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000, Rng 78080 km, MxRng 234240
km, FP 424
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 112883.0 tonnes, LMass 184911.0 tonnes, Cost MCr 4470.9,
HP 359250
Performance: Accel 1.0 G (1.6 G empty, 1.0 G overloaded), Jump 1, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:32:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Streiftog-class Destroyer (GTL9)

Streiftog-class Destroyer (GTL9)

While vulnerable to Imperial warships, the Streiftog is well-suited for its
purpose: short sharp raids against Sword Worlds targets. Protected against
turret weapons at long range, armed with a good mix of weapons itself,
carrying two Lyn-class light fighters, and fueld for two jumps, destroyers
like this play a large part in the Sword Worlds continual internecine
warfare.

Crew: 4 bridge crew, 4 engineers, 12 gunners, 3 auxiliary crew, 10 troops

1200-ton USL Hull, DR 1000, PD 4, Heavy compartmentalization, 4 Turrets
with 3 missile racks each, 4 Turrets with 3 lasers each, 4 Turrets with 3
sandcasters each, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Command
Bridge, Engineering, 250 Fusion Rocket, 24 Jump, 240 Fuel, 550 Rocket Fuel
(1.3 hours), Fuel Processor (30.0 hours), Stateroom, 2 Bunkrooms (32
personnel), 3 Utility, 3 Vehicle Bays (Gig, 2 Lyn Light Fighters), 12.5
cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
12 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450
km, FP 2
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 15748.5 tonnes, LMass 16392.1 tonnes, Cost MCr 584.7, HP
89400
Performance: Accel 2.3 G (2.4 G empty, 2.3 G overloaded), Jump 1, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:32:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Lyn-class Light Fighter (GTL9)

Lyn-class Light Fighter (GTL9)

A break with tradition, the Lyn class fighter is one of the most agile in
Sword Worlds service. Imperial Naval Intelligence believes that the design
was inspired by the performance of Imperial fighters during the Fifth
Frontier War, particularly the Rampart-class.

Crew: pilot

20-ton USL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, 3 Fixed-Mount Lasers, Basic stealth, Basic
emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 8 Fusion Rocket, 8 Rocket Fuel (0.6
hours), no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
3 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450 km,
FP 2
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 258.1 tonnes, LMass 258.1 tonnes, Cost MCr 17.8, HP 4500
Performance: Accel 4.7 G (4.7 G empty, 4.7 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:55:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>Classic Traveller was last published in 1986.  That's thirteen years ago.
>If you want to play Classic, fine.   Have fun.
>
>But in GURPS, you can build excellent armor.

Doug, I think part of the problem is that, although GURPS Traveller
originaly claimed to be porting the Traveller setting to GURPS, as you (and
other writers) use more and more GURPS rules you are beginning to alter the
Traveller setting.

For example, the GTL12 'advanced laminate' armour is a lot better than
bonded superdense. Unless weapons have also got a lot better, this will
alter game balance _if_ the advanced laminate is used.

This type of thing is going to be a problem for every GT writer, not just
yourself.

Remember the limits on laser size we eventually came up with for TNE? We'll
probably have to do that for a lot of things in GT too. For example, David
Pulver commented that if you allow lots of turret armour you can end up
with invulnerable turrets, USING THE RULES HE CREATED, which is a major
change from Classic Traveller, which he was trying to emulate. So now we
either accept that the setting has changed, or add a backward-compatible
fix to the GT rules.[1]

FWIW, I think you should aim for a battlesuit that is not invulnerable to
non-BD weaponry. Maybe the suit could have weak points (joints and seals,
say) that a _really_ good sniper or lucky hit might penetrate.  Hm, what
about a joint hit that just _locks_ the joint, rather like a tank throwing
a tread?  Also, whatever suit you design must be able to fit inside a
standard starship corridor without leaving gouges in the walls.


[1] My personal favourite is to add motors to the turrets, so that heavier
turrets can have fewer weapons. I haven't had the chance to check this in
VE2 yet though, so it might not be GURPS-compatible.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Versions

>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>
>> (I thought you were in engineering. Am I mixing you up with another Glenn?)
>
>Yes, you must be.  I'm Glenn Goffin, the lawyer.  There are at least two
>other Glenns on the list.

Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:02:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Robert Prior writes:

> Doug, I think part of the problem is that, although GURPS Traveller
> originaly claimed to be porting the Traveller setting to GURPS, as you (and
> other writers) use more and more GURPS rules you are beginning to alter the
> Traveller setting.

Much of the problem is that in many ways, traveller TL 15 is really only about
TL 10 in GURPS -- probably be more accurate to call TTL 8-9 GTL 8, TTL 10-12
GTL 9, TTL 13-15 GTL 10.  Then you _really_ have to muck with such things as
nuke dampers and contragravity, though, and you probably have to shift fusion
power by a TL as well, plus it winds up being overall pretty low resolution,
which is kinda annoying (hm...zhodani and imperials are same TL).
> 
> Remember the limits on laser size we eventually came up with for TNE? We'll
> probably have to do that for a lot of things in GT too. For example, David
> Pulver commented that if you allow lots of turret armour you can end up
> with invulnerable turrets, USING THE RULES HE CREATED, which is a major
> change from Classic Traveller, which he was trying to emulate. So now we
> either accept that the setting has changed, or add a backward-compatible
> fix to the GT rules.[1]

It isn't really worthwhile to build invulnerable turrets, though.  I usually
cap their DR at about 4,000, and frequently less, because when you have 150
turrets, who cares if you lose one.  I've got better uses for that tonnage.
> 
> FWIW, I think you should aim for a battlesuit that is not invulnerable to
> non-BD weaponry. Maybe the suit could have weak points (joints and seals,
> say) that a _really_ good sniper or lucky hit might penetrate.  Hm, what
> about a joint hit that just _locks_ the joint, rather like a tank throwing
> a tread?  Also, whatever suit you design must be able to fit inside a
> standard starship corridor without leaving gouges in the walls.

Well, realistically any armor should have weak points like that, but VE doesn't
really have any rules for aiming for weak spots.  If you want to add a rule for
that, I'd go with an 'eye shot' variant -- -10 to hit, divides DR by 10.
> 
> 
> [1] My personal favourite is to add motors to the turrets, so that heavier
> turrets can have fewer weapons. I haven't had the chance to check this in
> VE2 yet though, so it might not be GURPS-compatible.

VE2 doesn't bother with designing turret motors.  I'd just put a weight cap on
armor -- something like 20 tons per space (or just require turrets to have same
armor ratio as the body).  That would limit a turret to DR 3750 at TL 12.  It
can also theoretically affect ship design, though with the exception of really
slow SDBs its very hard to create a viable ship with that much armor anyway (it
would make heavy tanks illegal -- the Intrepid has 162 tons of armor in a 4
space frame -- but that can be glossed over)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 14:23:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Readercon in Waltham, MA

Mark Urbin wrote:

> OK, I'll bite.  Got any more details on this? A URL perhaps?  I'm in the
> Boston area and am interested in showing up.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ditto.

Ah, found it:

www.readercon.org

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:57:31 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: coming to Boston area

>Hi folks,
>...and the Halifax
>Explosion of 1917).

Ahhh yes, or as we in Boston call it, the Christmas Tree event.

(points to the first person to tell me why).

ObTrav willbe posted shortly.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: 'Sane' battledress

Ok...here's more or less how I might have designed 'imperial battle dress'
for Star Mercs.  For reference, I was the designer for the tanks (and feel
free to bitch about the Astrin, it should probably be an IFV not an APC,
and is in fact a GTL 11 design, even though star mercs says TL 12).  Note
that this _is_ a relatively lightly armored design -- there's only 217.5
lb of armor on it; this is key to maintain very low ground pressure.

Body and Subassemblies: body, partial-rotation turret (head), two
    arms, two legs, pod (on back).  Pod is detachable, mounted on a
    hardpoint.
Drivetrain: 1.6 kW TL 12 leg drivetrain (Lg, hp 3).  Four 250 lb vector
    reactionless thrusters (RLg,LLg,Bo,Bo, hp 2 each, 5 kW each).  2,000
    lb contragravity (Bo,Hp 2, 2 kW)
Electronics: medium tightbeam radio w/scrambler (Hd,HP 1,range 5,000 miles),
    short range lasercomm(Hd,HP 1, range 1,000 miles), PESA/20(Hd, HP 2,
    scan 19 or vision +4/+8), radscanner/10(Hd,HP 1, scan 17), surveillance
    sound detector/10(Hd,HP 1), HUDWAC, small hardened DX +3 robotic computer
    (Bo,HP 1,Cx6)
Miscellaneous Equipment: 2 x ST 80 arm motor (Arm,HP 1 each,.4 kW each)
Controls: computerized.
Crewstations: one battlesuit crewstation.  Environmental systems: 6 hours
    limited life support in torso(Hp 1), full life support(Hp 6) in pod.
    Defensive systems: gravity web, trauma maintenance.
Power: body holds one rD cell with 15 kWh of power, endurance about 6
    hours unless flying.  Pod holds either two rE cells (with 150 kWh each)
    or one rE cell and a 55 kW RTG.
Spaces: 0.008 cf waste in head, 0.005 cf waste in body, 0.75 cf rotation
    space for head in body, 0.1 cf cargo space in pod.
Volumes: head 0.75 cf, arms 0.26 cf ea., legs 0.84 cf each, body 2.8 cf,
    pod 1.5 cf.  Total 7.25 cf.
Areas: head 5, arms 2.5 each, legs 6 each, torso 12, pod 8.  Total 42.
Frame: extra-heavy, expensive, robotic.
Hit Points: head 30, arms 30 each, legs 36 each, body 72, pod 48.
Armor: PD 4/DR 400 advanced laminate on body and head, PD 4/DR 300 advanced
    laminate on all other locations.  Thermal-superconducting layer increases
    this to 4/650 on torso/head, 4/550 on other locations.
Body features: sealed, improved suspension.
Surface features: radical stealth, radical emissions cloaking, instant
    chameleon, basic sound suppression (-80 dB), thermal-superconducting
    surface, 200 lb hardpoint.
Statistics: weight 640 unloaded, 820 loaded, $224,000.  Of this, 126 lb and
    $49k are for the pod; a pod with 2 rE cells is only 31k.  ST 80/95, DX 14
    or pilot, IQ 9 or pilot, HT 12/72.  Volume 7.15 cf, size +0.
Performance: gMax 18 mph, gAcc 9 mph/s, gMR 3, gSR 2, gp very low,
    full offroad.  Lift 2,000 lb, can fly.  Drag 42, thrust 1,000 lb,
    aMax 420 mph, aAcc 25 mph/s, aMR 6.5, aDec 26 mph/s.  Space
    performance 1.2 Gs.

While the standard weapon for a battlesuit frequently is equivalent to an
FGMP, it isn't the same as the man-portable weapon -- it is armored, heavily
stealthed, and is designed to feed from a battlesuit power system.  It also
includes independent targeting sensors for people who are addicted to shooting
around corners.  It consists of:
2900 kJ compact plasma blaster.  Stats per FGMP-12.  60mm EMGL with 4 rounds
internal; another 9 rounds fit in storage in pod.  Stats: SS 14, Acc 8,
Dam 6d*15(10), 1/2D 440, Max 2900, WPS 1.1.  Stats are for HEAT.
stats are: SS 17, Acc 8, 1/2D 440, Max 2900, wps 1.6 (1.1 for explosive
ammunition), vps 0.011.  HEAT rounds do 6d*15(10).
x50 power LLTV (+5/+10 vision)
DR 100 armor, plus all surface features noted for the battlesuit.
Weight 48 lb, price $76,000.  Size modifier -2.  While carrying it,
air speed is limited to 400 mph; ground movement is not noticeably affected.
Complexity-5 targeting software would normally be run on the suit computer,
giving +6 to hit with either weapon.  This adds $8,000.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:32:41 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

> At 02:51 PM 7/7/99 +1000, you wrote:
> 
>>Do you even need to-hit rolls anymore in BD?  Missiles can't get through and
>>the firer is toast, RAM/RPG's can't get through and the user is toast.
>>Snipers can't hurt it and the sniper is toast.  Consealed troops can't hide
>>from it and are toast.  Mines cannot harm it (and I'm sure something will be
>>toasted in the interim).  Sounds like exciting game mechanics to me!
>
> We keep coming back to this point.

I know, but you must remember that GURPs numbers sound very "inflative"(sp?)
to us CTer's. ;-)
>
> Look, there exists today the M1A2 Main Battle Tank.  It is bloody
> nigh-invulnerable.  It's main gun can shred the frontal armor of most OPFOR
> vehicles with ease.  It does over 60mph cross-country.

(Where can I get one? ;-) Look, the *obvious* answer to Tank/BD/Misc. would
be Tank/BD/Misc., right? And GURPs has maintenence requirements, which CT
doesn't cover, AFAIK, but we mainly have CT books and errata, and the Melieu
0 book but no other T4, TNE, MT, or GT stuff (a friend has much GURPs, but
no GT).  We therefore so far play strictly CT campains, with house rules
based around CT canon (as far as the 'spirit' of the law, if not the
'letter' in some cases).
>
> Just because it exists, does not mean that a character in a modern-day
> Espionage game will have one.  And if he does every see one, he better pray
> that it's on his side!

My impression of BD in CT. When I first played Traveller I was a marine, I
had the skill BD(2 I think), and upon mustering out I did not get to keep
the BD of course. BD is expensive as well, so I am not buying it either.
Don't tell me I
*can't* get it, I'm a GD IM! ;-) I'll go to Gunn if I have to, but, uh,
first I need some more money.... I held BD in awe, a trophy to acquire, and
found myself an ex-merchant who needed some security, recruited a crew, and
away we go!
>
> Outside a military campaign, these things should never, ever show up.  The
> AD&D equivalent would be a Lich with the Hand and Eye of Vecna wield the
> Rod of Seven Parts.  The average PC group will be severely outclassed.
>
Now that's hyperbole, right? And some campains *are* military. I
*eventually*
got my BD. And I can't be turned by *any* level cleric.

>>Why make it so much bigger and badder if all that does is make it usable
>>against much weaker foes, if with each upgrade of the armour, a GM is
>>compelled to instigate newer weapons to handle it?  I mean, are you going to
>>give the PC the new version of the "SuperBD" and let them use it for an
>>in-game year untill the enemy introduces a weapon that takes it out?

 Uh, yeah. Unless the investment doesn't seem economically feasible, my
marine character want's to be on the cutting edge. Design flaws may make a
certain model a lemon, but I would not get rid of my old suit. If I could
not afford the new suit while retaining the old, I'd wait. If I could, I
would start out by testing the new BD in a non-hostile evironment(well, for
BD), then gradually up to full combat.

>>Sounds like great fun playing an invulnerable character for that time, no
>>challenge, no chance of being harmed... well, maybe it doesn't.  At least in
>>CT, BD was more even.  You were at least vulnerable and needed it, perhaps
>>to stand a chance on the battle field, not invulnerable and able to
>>withstand EVERYTHING on the battle field.  But who cares about playability?
>
I still say that BDvsBD, TankvsTank, yadda yadda yadda....look, I think all
that you are overlooking(both side of the debate), is that the systems are
vastly different. All that I hear about Gurps BD makes me(CT only) say
"Yeah, that is what I was assuming I could do" except for the 70 mph running
bit, but hey! ;-) And can't individual suits of BD in GURPs gain quirks or
something as their maintenence score erodes? I don't know much about GURPs,
but a friend has it.

> Classic Traveller was last published in 1986.  That's thirteen years ago.
> If you want to play Classic, fine.   Have fun.

I am playing CT, and I am having fun, and I am advising other CT players to
ignore that crack. I am sure it is not indicative of the entire GURPs
community as my GURPs playing friend also plays CT. Bare bones CT. As I
said, our resources were disasterously depleted.
>
> But in GURPS, you can build excellent armor.  The design I'm building has
> 850 points of armor on the torso and head, somewhat less on the arms and
> legs.  That will still allow a penetrating hit by a FGMP-12 about 10-15% of
> the time.  As an exercise, I shot my armor with a AP round from a M1A2, and
> it shredded the armor.  So just get a TL7 tank and you're set.

See? GURPs has limits, and they apply across the board. As long as all
vehicles, structures, etc, are created under the same rules, I fail to see a
problem. I'm not sure I like a TL7 tank busting me up, but I wonder, did you
just shoot a suit, or pit a BD trooper vs a TL7 Tank?  ;-)

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:47:39 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> At 10:49 PM 7/6/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >> 
> >>         In fact, a good spreadsheet or program design can goal-seek most of
> >> your targets for you, by simply building the reactor to meet
> >> power-consumption requirements each time you make a change.       
> >
> >Except that all the spreadsheets I've seen are only for Excell, and I don't
> use *any* M$ products.
> >
> >Keven
> >
> 
>         There are a couple of good XWindows spreadsheet programs that will
> allow this sort of thing.  Heck, worse comes to worst, get a copy of Perfect
> Office for Linux and use the spreadsheet package that comes with it, which
> is just as feature rich as Excel.

Corel ported the entire office suite to Linux???  *COOL*!!  Last I'd heard,
they'd just ported Word Perfect over.  I used to use Paradox a *LOT*, and I
think it's one of the *best* databases out there, and *WAY* overdue for
porting to Xwindows.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:05:07 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

cos 90 wrote:

>If Crusade's ratings on TNT are halfway decent, there is a reasonably good
>chance that the Sci-Fi Channel will pick it up. Early reports indicate that
>Crusade's ratings *are* not too bad. And up here in Canada, Crusade airs on
>Space (our SF cable channel) and is getting *great* ratings...

And in the UK, it's just started to air on Sky One (Sunday at 8pm).

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:50:20 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Support Weapons in Meteoric Assault

Black ICE wrote:

>1.  Heavy weapons that can be deployed in a single assault capsule. 
>Equivalent to air-dropping Ma Deuce (the M2 Heavy Barrel caliber .50
>machine gun, for the uninitiated).  This weapon is a bit too large to
>fit into a capsule that also contains its gunner.  Its crew (probably a
>two-man team [gunner and assistant gunner] links up with the weapon on
>the ground, and operates it in support of platoon/company actions.

Quite a sensible option for weapons that don't break down easily - esp.
if the crew carry regular long arms in the drop as well (reason - you
don't want to be the trooper who survived the drop, but don't have a gun
since your heavy weapon pod was nuked..)

>2.  Heavy weapons whose parts can be carried by its crew.  Equivalent to
>air-dropping a light-to-medium mortar (60mm to 81mm) with its crew. 
>Each crewbeing carries a piece of the weapon in his/her/its capsule,
>along with a few rounds of ammunition (or power supplies).  The crew
>links up dirtside, assembles the weapon, and operates it in support of
>company actions.

Favourite for light support weapons. Everyone has a bit in addition to
their basic load - whether it's a part of the weapon or a round of ammo.

>3.  Heavy weapons whose parts can be dropped in multiple assault
>capsules.  I can't think of any weapons systems that are air-dropped in
>this manner (then again, I'm not combat arms).  Similar in concept to
>Case #2 above, except that the crewbeings must track down the parts and
>assemble them.  This type of weapon would probably be used at battalion
>level, as part of a dedicated weapons company.

Nightmare. The odds of this system not being available after the drop
are far higher; and you'd only need to employ this method on a major
weapon system. Better to use a `cargo' sized pod rather than a regular
troop pod.

>4.  Heavy weapons that can be dropped in outsize capsules.  Equivalent
>to air-dropping a 105mm howitzer.  This class of weapon differs from
>Case #1, in that it requires larger-than-standard drop capsules (or
>ablative drop pallets).  It would generally be found in dedicated
>batteries or battalions.  Ammunition or power supplies would also be
>dropped in outsize capsules or ablative drop pallets.

Far better than (3), above. If there's a requirement for this class of
weapon system IYTU, then there's probably a range of standard pod sizes
for cargo.

>5.  Light vehicles (unarmed).  Equivalent to air-dropping HMMWVs as
>[exapmles are not all-inclusive] prime movers for light artillery, or
>with SIGINT/EW modules on the back.  Depending on the size of the
>vehicle in question, and the size of outsize capsules developed, these
>would be delivered in either outsize capsules or ablative drop pallets. 
>Alternatively, they could either ride down in landing craft or
>self-deploy using their grav modules, time permitting.

...or scouts.

>6.  Light vehicles (armed).  Equivalent to air-dropping Avenger or
>TOW-armed HMMWVs.  See Case #5 above for delivery.  These light armed
>vehicles would most likely be found in dedicated weapons platoons or
>companies/batteries.

...or (modern day example) light fighting vehicles, like the (cancelled)
XM-8; the Soviet BMD; or the UK Scorpion).


Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:58:42 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>>I suspect that under most combat conditions manpack SAM's haven't been an
>>effective deterrent. At least I don't think we lost any planes to them in
>>either Kosovo or Iran.
>
>  The war against Yugoslavia was a meaningful model of the battlefields in
>which shoulder-launched SAM's were supposed to help defend ground forces?

Not even close. Using Desert Storm and the operations in Bosnia & Kosovo
as benchmarks for weapon systems isn't a good idea.

>  FWIW, IIRC, the main things that Iran cost you was a few choppers and your
>shot at the World Cup.

I guess the poster meant Iraq. Now, I think a couple of a/c there were
hit by MANPADS.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:46:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Robert Prior wrote:

>Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
>Lyn-class Fighter
>Streiftog-class Destroyer

I see that someone has gotten themself a Norwegian dictionery.
Cool to see those names :-)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:55:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Kjerre-class Freighter (GTL9 & 10)

Kjerre-class Freighter (GTL9)

Reactionless thrusters are expensive and inefficient at lower tech levels,
but they are a lot safer than fusion rockets. The Kjerre-class freighter,
and ships like her, are a common sight in the Sword Worlds Confederation.
Heavy and lumbering, she shuttles slowly along her route.

Crew: 3 bridge crew, 18 engineers, 4 gunners

2000-ton USL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, 2 Turrets with 3 lasers each, 2 Turrets
with 3 sandcasters each, Bridge, Engineering, 100 Maneuver, 40 Jump, 200
Fuel, 13 Staterooms, 4 Utility, 1554 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km
Sensors: PESA 48000 km, AESA 160000 km, Radscanner 3200 km
6 102-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx20, 1/2D Rng 16360 km, MxRng 65450 km,
FP 2
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 1579.7 tonnes, LMass 8627.1 tonnes, Cost MCr 401.4, HP 94800
Performance: Accel 0.1 G (0.3 G empty, 0.0 G overloaded), Jump 1, Air Speed
0 km/h


Kjerre II-class Freighter (GTL10)

As inefficient as GTL10 thrusters are by Imperial standards, they are an
incredible improvement over the average Sword Worlds technology. When the
Kjerre-class was refitted her acceleration increased four times, and the
reduced engineering crew enabled her to carry a few passengers.

Crew: 3 bridge crew, 3 engineers, 4 gunners, steward
Passengers: 7 high passengers

2000-ton USL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, 2 Turrets with 3 lasers each, 2 Turrets
with 3 sandcasters each, Bridge, Engineering, 100 Maneuver, 40 Jump, 200
Fuel, 13 Staterooms, 4 Utility, 1596.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km
Sensors: PESA 48000 km, AESA 160000 km, Radscanner 3200 km
6 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32720 km, MxRng 98610
km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 1207.4 tonnes, LMass 8447.5 tonnes, Cost MCr 193.1, HP 94800
Performance: Accel 0.4 G (3.0 G empty, 0.1 G overloaded), Jump 1, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:57:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

>On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Robert Prior wrote:
>
>>Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
>>Lyn-class Fighter
>>Streiftog-class Destroyer
>
>I see that someone has gotten themself a Norwegian dictionery.
>Cool to see those names :-)

Only a pocket one, I'm afraid. The names really should be Icelandic, but I
figure this is better than nothing, and I'll save the Icelandic for when I
get better at designing GTL9 ships.

Feel free to suggest names... (that's a hint, BTW)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 22:38:57 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War

On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:36:05 -0400 (EDT), "Alan Bradley"
<alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> wrote:

>I'd like people's opinion on the following:

>How sustained was the fighting during the Civil War?

>Was it a period of prolonged interstellar warfare, with factions
>occasionally seizing Capitol, losing it and regrouping for another attempt,
>or was it a period of sporadic warfare, palace coups and quickly resolved
>mutinies?

>The obvious answer is, of course, both, but what I am really interested in
>is the balance between them.

>In any case, localised warfare can be safely assumed to be taking place
>throughout the period, as local noble cliques take advantage of the
>relative anarchy to destroy their rivals.  An example of this would be
>Baron/Marquis/Duke Caranda's attack on Menorb.

>In short, what happened?  Was it a period of murderous intrigues, or a
>'real' war, like the Rebellion?

My take on it was that it was a series of military coups and
murderous intrigues, with comparatively little actual 'pitched
battles'.  Significant pitched battles would likely have
significantly disrupted the operation and communication of the
Imperial bureaucracy outside of the "Imperial" function; this is
canonically not the case.

A good image might be the sort of purges and "palace coups" that
went on when a new faction took over the Soviet politburo, but
slightly bloodier, with "selected" Army divisions (probably "x
Guards Army"), KGB units, and GRU units taking active part in
support of a candidate.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #829
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 830



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Upper Sizes of Ships
Re: Re: Rosettes
Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Stunnenge-class Stealth Monitor (GTL10)
Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_
Re: Battledress
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #829
Re: Versions
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress...
Biodiversity over time
Rosettes
re: Battledress
Re Tech Levels (was BDress)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:41:56 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Upper Sizes of Ships

At 10:26 AM 7/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
><clip>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>That's a pretty mega megacorp, if they can put several thousand
>security cruisers into one operation. That's what it would take to 
>put a cruiser every couple kilometers in orbit around an average
>world.
>
>How many ships does YTU Imperial Navy invest into a sector fleet?
>Or do they just subcontract out to the megacorps?
>
>Walt Smith
>

Accurate description: as the name implies,  Star SERVICES provide the
equipment and personnel to who ever has the cash. Security is only one
aspect, the among the other subsidaries are Star Transport (taxicabs to bulk
interstellar freighters), Star Communications (local net, publishing, news &
entertainment up to the private equivalent of the X-boat network), Star
Administration (any time of paper pusher you care to name), Star Life
Services (medical & such),etc. The politicians like to make big noises about
how the Government is the biggest and best, but a close look shows that most
daily work has been farmed out to sub contractors, of which the Star Service
is the biggest. 

You want to start your own company? No real knowledge of the business? Call
Star Services; everything you need from equipment to staff. 

Theoretically, the government (I won't say Imperium, since the resemblence
to the offical universe is rather slight), states that privately owned armed
vessels may not exceed "cruiser mass". Nice nebulous phrasing. In general
practice, anything smaller than a Plankwell or Kokirrak is considered legal.
Problem is that no adjustment for the effect of tech level is included. A
199 KT "cruiser" at Tech Level 11 and a 199 KT "cruiser" at Tech Level 15
pack somewhat different punches. And the Star Service stays on the bleeding
edge of technology. 

In practice most Sector and Sub Sector administrations are left on their
own; Central Naval Command provides the big stuff and "Guidelines",
"Certifcations", and "Recommended Practicies"; local patrol is local concern.

Garry
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:18:05 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Re: Rosettes

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:13:02 -0400 (EDT), "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@earthlink.net> wrote:

>> "Three or more equal masses (worlds) set at the points of an equilateral 
>> polygon, and with the correct equal angular velocities about their center of
>> masses, will have a stable orbital configuration. The group does not require
>> a central star. Rosettes almost never occur naturally." -- Traveller Library
>> Data
 
>> Can a rosette that has no central star (or other gravity well) have a
>> null-gravity (la grange) point(s)?

>I don't see why not, but I don't have any math to confirm or deny it.

My roommate, who has an MS in Astronomy, says that this would be
a good subject for a Master's thesis, or possibly a PhD
dissertation.

I seem to remember that in Robert Forward's "Rocheworld"
(expanded from the earlier "Flight of the Dragonfly", but
substantially identical), there _were_ "LaGrange" points
"between" the two lobes of the title world.  Since the two lobes
were of equal mass, the points were at +/- 90 degrees, rather
than +/- 60 degrees as in the Terra/Luna system. (N.B. -
recommended read.  Most recent info is ppb, 470pp incl
appendices, NYC, Baen Books, 1990, ISBN 0-671-69869-9)

It seems intuitive that there would be a "LaGrange" point at the
revolutional center of the system (where the non-existent sun
would be). Can't speak to others.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:22:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

Not to start a flame war, but does anyone actually _like_ Crusade?

I was a rabid B5 fan til it started to suck (can you say season 5
(parts were OK, but both the "movies" sucked).

I was so disenchanted that I forgot to see Crusade til last week. So
I've seen 1, and it was very, um, Star Trek-ie to me.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:32:37 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

>Not to start a flame war, but does anyone actually _like_ Crusade?


I've seen two shows, and found them (1) worse than 1st season B5,
and (2) better than what was on the other channels.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:06:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Stunnenge-class Stealth Monitor (GTL10)

Stunnenge-class Stealth Monitor (GTL10)

The Third Frontier War caught the Imperial Navy flat-footed and unprepared,
its ships poorly dispersed and its logistics a tangled mess. The Zhodani
thrust towards Rhylanor came dangerously close to succeeding. Herein hangs
a tale

In the Battle of Porozlo (980) the Zhodani captured an excellent forward
base for the Siege of Rhylanor (980-986). Possessing naval facilities and a
gas giant, Porozlo is only one parsec away from Rhylanor, allowing Zhodani
warships to jump in, raid, attack, and mount blockade patrols, and still be
able to jump back when outmatched.

While the Imperial Navy was officially tasked with defending Rhylanor, the
local population was not willing to trust the Navy's competence, especially
as the Navy's priority was its own bases. In a thousand desperate
skirmishes Rhylanor system defense forces battled the Zhodani invaders:
defending outlying asteroid settlements, convoying vital supplies,
harrassing and ambushing task forces-tieing up so many enemy warships that
the rest of the Zhodani offensive faltered and they made peace.

In 985 the Zhodani launched a major assault on the trailing Trojan cluster,
intending to establish an in-system base from which to assault Rhylanor
itself. Local defense forces had anticipated this move and deployed stealth
monitors in both Trojan clusters, tasked with ambushing and delaying
Zhodani forces long enough for fleet assets to arrive. By sheer fluke, when
the Zhodani task force emerged from jump space it was surrounding the
Stunnenge at point-blank range. In the crew's own words:

Lt Enklia: Close emergence, sir. Big. Two more three Astra, sir! They're
right on top of us!

Captain Petros: Sound Battle Stations. Scramble all fighters. Signal Fleet.
What are we facing?

Enklia: Sir. Two Zhodani battle squadrons with many escorts. Possibly an
assault squadron.

Lt Marcon: Jamming, sir. Trying countermeasures.

Petros: Guns, target battleships alpha and gamma. Flight, target support
vessels.

Aft Battery: Scratch Zho alpha. Shifting to delta.

Cmdr Chandry: Their last wave saturated our counterbattery. Missiles
impacting in 30 seconds!

Petros: Attention all hands, this is Captain Petros. This is it, time to
earn our pay. Gunnery captains: choose your own targets and fire at will.
No surrender, no retreat!

Chandry: Kali, we've lost the port batteries. No contact with the aft sections.

Marcon: Transmitter destroyed, sir. I don't think our signal reached Fleet.

Chandry: Aft batteries still firing. Lost contact with Engineering.

Major Whittaker: Commandos! Mindrippers just ap

Petros: We're next, gentlemen. It's been an honour to serve with you. Think
free!

After two boarding attempts were repulsed, the Stunnenge was vapourized by
the concentrated fire of the Zhodani battle squadron. There were no
survivors.
Rhylanor remained free.

Editor's Note: This entry contradicts the official history of the Third
Frontier War as published by the Imperial Navy. While many historians have
wondered how the bridge records for a ship lost with all hands were
recovered, no Rhylanor historian has yet dared question these events. Such
is the power of local myth-making.

Crew: 4 bridge crew, 66 engineers, 38 gunners, 3 medics, 35 auxiliary crew,
120 troops
10000-ton PL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, Total compartmentalization, 10 Turrets
with 3 lasers each, 10 Turrets with 3 sandcasters each, 8 Particle Beam
Bays, Spinal Particle Beam, Radical stealth, Radical emission cloaking,
Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 4000 Maneuver, 73 Staterooms, 8
Bunkrooms (128 personnel), 20 Utility, 2 Spacedocks (35 Jumo Heavy
Fighters), Hall seating 100 people, Theatre seating 100 people, Swimming
Pool, 2 Sickbays, 59 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32720 km, MxRng 98610
km, FP 4
8 Particle Beam Bays: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 6dx1500, Rng 23400 km, MxRng 70220
km, FP 63
Spinal Particle Beam: Imp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000, Rng 78080 km, MxRng 234240
km, FP 424
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 273585.9 tonnes, LMass 292764.5 tonnes, Cost MCr 2456.1,
HP 357000
Performance: Accel 0.5 G (0.5 G empty, 0.5 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:33:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Imaginactra <russcm@shell.zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_

But did you like it? :)

On topic, Crusade looks to me like it could be rather like a couple of
what the MT: Rebellion SourceBook refered to as the Nail Missions.

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> Not to start a flame war, but does anyone actually _like_ Crusade?
> 
> I was a rabid B5 fan til it started to suck (can you say season 5
> (parts were OK, but both the "movies" sucked).
> 
> I was so disenchanted that I forgot to see Crusade til last week. So
> I've seen 1, and it was very, um, Star Trek-ie to me.
> 
> -Merrick
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:41:48 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress


> > From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: Battledress
>
> > Do you even need to-hit rolls anymore in BD?  Missiles can't get through
and
> > the firer is toast, RAM/RPG's can't get through and the user is toast.
> > Snipers can't hurt it and the sniper is toast.  Consealed troops can't
hide
> > from it and are toast.  Mines cannot harm it (and I'm sure something
will be
> > toasted in the interim).  Sounds like exciting game mechanics to me!
>
> Bravo!  I would only add that the manufacturer of mines can usually be
> identified in some way, by label or peculiar characteristics of use.
> The battledress sensors would automatically record that information and,
> at an appropriate time, transmit it back to the fleet, which would then
> take the necessary steps to ensure that the manufacturers' facilities
> would be made into toast.
>
> --Glenn
>

I told ya, I knew the toast factor would come into it somehow!  ;^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 19:56:59 -0500
From: Drew <neo@arkansas.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #829

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 99 20:11:24 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

On 07/07/99 at 04:47 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>>         There are a couple of good XWindows spreadsheet programs that will
>> allow this sort of thing.  Heck, worse comes to worst, get a copy of Perfect
>> Office for Linux and use the spreadsheet package that comes with it, which
>> is just as feature rich as Excel.

>Corel ported the entire office suite to Linux???  *COOL*!!  Last I'd
>heard, they'd just ported Word Perfect over.  I used to use Paradox a
>*LOT*, and I think it's one of the *best* databases out there, and
>*WAY* overdue for porting to Xwindows.  <grin>

They are porting the whole thing, but I don't think it's out yet.
Probably, will come out about the time Corel releases their Linux
distribution this fall.  I'm looking for big fanfair when that
happens.

BTW, here's an aside to my players...  I've been wondering gang,
what version of Traveller am *I* running in the Akus Moby game?
Yeah, I know "None of the above" sums it up, but what version does
it feel most like?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulfnet>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:25:08 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress


> >Why make it so much bigger and badder if all that does is make it usable
> >against much weaker foes, if with each upgrade of the armour, a GM is
> >compelled to instigate newer weapons to handle it?  I mean, are you going
to
> >give the PC the new version of the "SuperBD" and let them use it for an
> >in-game year untill the enemy introduces a weapon that takes it out?
Sounds
> >like great fun playing an invulnerable character for that time, no
> >challenge, no chance of being harmed... well, maybe it doesn't.  At least
in
> >CT, BD was more even.  You were at least vulnerable and needed it,
perhaps
> >to stand a chance on the battle field, not invulnerable and able to
> >withstand EVERYTHING on the battle field.  But who cares about
playability?
> >
> >--  The Roc
> >
>         Hi!
>         IMHO, one thing to keep in mind is that BD is a *weapons system*.
> The M1 Abrhams was not built to give the Bad Guys a fair shake.  It was
> designed to kick the $hit out of whatever was stupid enough to stick
around
> to fight.  The objective of combat is "to destroy the enemy or his will to
> fight".  Note the second half of that.

Well, according to the Discovery Channel, an Abrams can be killed with
current generation weapon systems, and even systems available before it was
designed... but in a BD comparison, you still have a crew of more than one
man operating the machine, not a single supertrooper pertending to be a tank
with the protection of a tank attached to his arms and legs

>         If the fireteam sees the BD Trooper moving in on them and puts up
> their hands because they know they can't win, then *that* is a properly
> designed set of BD.  If they say "hmmm....  we've got 30% odds of taking
him
> , theres 4 of us, *he's* screwed...  Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba-BLAM" then that is *not*
a
> properly designed set of BD.

But it doesn't seem that a fireteam can even consider taking out the single
BD troopie before the marine gets out his toaster... no 30%, 4 of us about
it!

>         If you are concerned about playability, what are your players
doing
> in BD *anyway*?  That's like complaining that the Trepidia they are a crew
> of is too tough?

That reference was made in relation to the idea that the supplement in
discussion was about BD-equiped PC's (in service campaigns?).  Do I see 6x
PC's sitting down around the table with their GM, "Um, you guys won't need
your dice tonight, you are all equiped with BD and FBG's (if you are an
adult, you know what an FBG is), rocket launcers, and the usual sensor
suite... There are only you 6 against 200 enemy troops, although they have
armour support, it can't see you until it's to late and orbital support
toasts them... and I roll for all 200 enemy troops to hit you and they all
miss of course... well, those that aren't taken out by point defense
anyway... and you don't really meed to roll to hit these jerks... ummm...
Well.  You won the battle!  Wanna hire a video?  I'll put together another
assault for next session... maybe make it 300 enemy troops?  What do you
think..."  Sounds wonderfully playable!

>         And if a BD Trooper goes nose to nose with a Trepida, I would
expect
> his next of kin to recieve a "The Imperium Regrets to Inform You.."
message
> by X-Boat.  That's reasonable...  BD aren't Trepida, and non-BD infantry
are
> not BD Troopers.  A BD Trooper ought to have a weapon capable of
> mission-killing other BD, if only because if he does not he is reliant on
> support systems which limit the usefulness of BD as an assault or
> storm-attack tool.  This might lead to an arms race...  just like in the
> RealWorld(tm).

But it is not proposed that IM's in BD are fielded only against other
troopies in BD, and I get the distinct impression that they are now special
forces that specialise in being fielded against inferior forces (SAS don't
normally get fielded against those who are equal or better than themselves
on a level playing field).  Furthermore, from pro-BD posts, BD can hide from
armour which cannot hide from it.  BD seems to be equiped to take out said
armour and employ all manner of counter measures against said armour's
weapon systems, not to mention naval support against enemy armour
deployment.

>         If your players are in the buisness of wearing BD or killing BD,
> then they are part of that arms race and if they aren't shelling out the
MCr
> to stay on top of it, then they get whacked.  There is considerable game
> balance there...  they have to pay top credit to stay alive, which means
> they either pick tickets that don't require dealing in or with BD, or they
> pick tickets too dangerous enough for anything *but* BD.  I don't see that
> as a problem, so long as they have to work within that framework.
>         If somehow they wind up outside it, in BD that they cannot be
> threatened for example, then I would suggest that it is the GM has to find
> out how they got there.  Not the rules author.
>         Again, JMHO.
>

Just seems that the rules as they once stood (CT) covered everything in that
regard.  The rules now seem to say, "GURPS BD is unstoppable, but if the GM
wishes to make it so (stoppable), he will have to invest his own valuable
time in doing it, because the rules were created in the author's perfect
image of how things are and no-one is going to change that, so there."

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:43:31 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 11:25 AM 08/07/1999 +1000, you wrote:
>
>But it doesn't seem that a fireteam can even consider taking out the single
>BD troopie before the marine gets out his toaster... no 30%, 4 of us about
>it!
>

        So, as I said, its a properly designed suit.
        I suppose what we are discussing, at its core, is what is
"reasonable".  The group I reff are *merciless* about min/max-ing HG designs
for combat effectiveness...  Or ground installations, etc, etc.  These guys
are *mean*... which is just as well, because I don't cut them any slack.  If
I handed them Gurps Vehicles and said "Here's your budget...  build five
mobile suits for a jump attack" you can *bet* they'd design something
*worse* than the Commando.
        So, why shouldn't the NPC's have that kinda rude kit?

        I *can* see your point.  GT and CT Battledress are two different
animals.  GT and CT starships are two different animals.  GT and CT trade
rules are *also* two different animals.
        CT and GT are simply two different animals.
        Should they be identical in play balance?  I dunno...  How much does
that ham-string the GURPs rules-set?  Do we get into a whole other set of
hand-waves if we try and keep "power levels" of different systems between CT
and GT in line?  I suspect yes.
        I personally doubt I will ever own GT.  I played enough Fantasy Hero
to get a good idea that generic systems do not do niche systems well, IMHO.
However, if the rules are there, I find it unreasonable to say "just because
another game engine doesn't do it that way means you can't do it like that
here".  If folks wanted to play CT, they'd beg, borrow or buy copies of
CT...  folks are buying GT because that's what they want.

>Well.  You won the battle!  Wanna hire a video?  I'll put together another
>assault for next session... maybe make it 300 enemy troops?  What do you
>think..."  Sounds wonderfully playable!

        Give me one guy with a TL6 flame-thrower, a forest, and another five
guys with TL9 shoulder-fired chemically pumped anti-tank lasers and I'll
make a mess out of your six PC's.  The other 194 infantry can be doing
something useful like repairing the anti-ship defenses of the planet.  =)

        All silliness aside, in pure set-piece battles of unsupported
infantry against armored vehicles  or armored suits, it'll be a massacre.
It should be.  That's why they build them.  I agree, its boring as hell to
preside over slaughter.  So, why did you send your players on that mission?
        I'd would have sent six serious suits against a vital target area on
a "grab the general" mission where there are auto-cannon, emplaced Z-guns,
sonar and lidar detection fields, tank-breaker mines, etc.  The kind of job
where they *need* that armor to have a hope in hell...  so long as they
don't trigger the defenses.  That's a good role-playing mission for PC's
with BD.
        Slaughtering infantry is best done with the abstract rules in Book
4: Mercenary.  In fact, if you consult those rules,  a TL 15 squad (BD and
FGMP) vs TL 8 infantry battaltion (flack and autorifles) gets a DM of +2 on
the die roll for damage inflicted...  the battalion gets a DM of -1.  That's
6 to 452;  the BD guys have 'em out numbered!  If they both throw a 3 on a
d6, the BD guys take 5% casualties (6*.05= 6 hits damage on one guy) and the
battalion takes 20% casualties (90 WIA/KIA).  God help the battalion if the
BD guys are firing from ambush...
        CT Book 4.
        
>But it is not proposed that IM's in BD are fielded only against other
>troopies in BD, and I get the distinct impression that they are now special
>forces that specialise in being fielded against inferior forces (SAS don't
>normally get fielded against those who are equal or better than themselves
>on a level playing field).

        Um...   I must have missed some of Doug's posts, because what I seem
to remember is him saying that BD/ FGMP is *standard battlefield kit* for
*Imperial Marines*.   If they run into "Home Town Suits", then that is what
they are fighting.  If the target is TL8 infantry, then that is what they
are fighting.  I believe I posted that it is entirely possible -- the math
supports it --  that the Imperial Marines are 11000 brigades in strength...
That is a *bit* big to be a special forces unit...  16.5 million Marines.
        No, they are simply the most heavily armed assault forces in the
Imperium.  Which is, if as a PC I were the Emperor, *exactly* how I'd want it.

>  Furthermore, from pro-BD posts, BD can hide from
>armour which cannot hide from it.  BD seems to be equiped to take out said
>armour and employ all manner of counter measures against said armour's
>weapon systems, not to mention naval support against enemy armour
>deployment.

        Look, there are some monster presumptions there.  First is that the
Naval attack on the system defense forces was sucessful in allowing the
Troop ships to move out of the Reserve.  Second is that planetary
bombardment against emplaced surface weapons and deep meson sites was also
successful, allowing those Troop ships to move into orbit uncontested.
        The war is *over* at this point.  All that is left is securing the
C3I sites around the planet....  which will be the things that you just
can't tac-shoot from orbit and you *need* to have control of.  So that is
what you will be attacking, and that is what the planetary army *knows* you
will be attacking.  So that is where he's going to stack his forces.  So you
roll out your brigade of MATs, take 30% losses on the landing from
point-defense systems and anti-air batteries that have been silent until
now.  The MATs start tearing up the area to secure an LZ while the Troop
ships work at picking off those PDS and AAW sites from orbit.  
        Sure, it'l be LAW-rocket snipers vs BD.  It'll be tanks chasing BD.
It'll be booby-trapped buildings vs BD.  It might even be BD vs BD.  The
enemy is going to be doing his ernest best to kill every trooper you've got,
because if those attack shuttles get down ok, then the war is *very* over.
        So *any* *competant* BD designer is going to build a suit to *deal*
with the threat environment it will have to survive.  Anything else is
*negligence*.  No, it isn't very fair.  War is not about fair.  Its about
killing the other guy, preferably under condtions where he is unable to do
anything to threaten you.

        War is miserable for role-playing.  It doesn't treat PC's as
special, it doesn't give a rat's a$$ about game balance and its full of
tragedies.  As a ref, I try not to directly involve my players in "war".
See my TNEC "Saviour's Race" game log on my web-site (URL in sig) if you are
interested in seeing what I get players to do when there is a war on.

>>         If somehow they wind up outside it, in BD that they cannot be
>> threatened for example, then I would suggest that it is the GM has to find
>> out how they got there.  Not the rules author.
>>         Again, JMHO.
>>
>Just seems that the rules as they once stood (CT) covered everything in that
>regard.  The rules now seem to say, "GURPS BD is unstoppable, but if the GM
>wishes to make it so (stoppable), he will have to invest his own valuable
>time in doing it, because the rules were created in the author's perfect
>image of how things are and no-one is going to change that, so there."
>
        I see your point here.  However, unless one wishes to run an
entirely pre-fab game, a GM invests time into the campaign world anyway.
How much is up to them.  I'm pretty extreme about it...  I don't do canon at
all.  Everything in my game is a scratch-build, pretty much, except the rules.
        Now, if you want to use out-of-the-box (OOTB) adventures, OOTB
history, OOTB equipment, OOTB starships, OOTB starmaps, etc and this is a
grinding point, yeah, you've got a problem.  OTOH, if you ref GT, you are
most likely familar with the G:Vehicle rules and can do a more YTU-friendly
BD variant and declare it to be the suit in use by the IM.  I am sure you'll
do at least one starship;  what's the difference?

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:21:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Biodiversity over time

>The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
>Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
>better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
>the absence of design?
>
>The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.
>
>My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
>as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.
>
>Thoughts? Constructive comments?
>
Check out Dawkins _The Selfish Gene_ for a slightly better model of
evolution than darwins. His premise is that the gene is the unit of
selection, not the organism or species. The organism is essentially, under
the dawkinsonian model, a replication machine and protective coating for
the genes combined. Which helps explain such phenomena as hives, single
breeding pair colonies, and the prevalence of harmful recessives as
disorder vectors.

Essentially, non-harmful, but likewise non-helpful ("Neutral") genes can
build up in organisms. Recessive "low utility" traits also accumulate. For
example, take a mature area... genetic traits for breaking down certain
chemicals which do not normally occur are a common enough recessive in
humans (ForEx: some 1 per 1e5 or so can digest Aspartame as a useful
sugar)... but, in a situation where that becomes an advantage, those who
can will benefit, and thus be slightly more likely to succeed. On the
obverse, many such minor mutations carry minor enough costs that they are
not likely to fail because of one or two of these becomeing active. The
gene itself continues to be replicated by the persons carrying the inactive
recessive at almost negligable cost, and thus when a new environment where
the active version is a benefit, those with the active version will be able
to rapidly adapt, and use the adaptation (and normally pass it on). Very
few other traits can be so easily checked for.

Also keep in mind that humans carry genes for gills, tails, and large
ammounts of body fur... they just happen to be switched off in normal
development. Longer development periods would allow such neutral genes to
build up....

The problem is in figuring whether the old can use the new, the new can use
the old, both can, a portion of each can, or neither can... Some scientist
(I forgot who) recently estimated that, based upon total genetic lengths,
we probably only use some 60% of our DNA.... and much of that only in the
womb.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:21:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Rosettes

>> "Three or more equal masses (worlds) set at the points of an equilateral
>> polygon, and with the correct equal angular velocities about their center of
>> masses, will have a stable orbital configuration. The group does not require
>> a central star. Rosettes almost never occur naturally." -- Traveller Library
>> Data
>>
>> Can a rosette that has no central star (or other gravity well) have a
>> null-gravity (la grange) point(s)?
>
>I don't see why not, but I don't have any math to confirm or deny it.

There will be a "Synthetic" central mass, which (Someone more
scientifically trained please correct me if I'm wrong) is based upon the
mass of hose items in the rosette orbit, and their distance from the center
of mass of the system of the rosette. This SHOULD result in some lagrange
points... (I've modeled this on computer at one point, but the program had
one programming glitch... it sequentially proceeded object by object (each
object getting vector changes, then moved), rather than figuring all vector
changes then applying them and finally moving the objects each frame.

Note also that a close binary of similar mass stars creates a synthetic
mass at it's center of mass (which will lie on the line between the center
of mass of the two stars), and that is the real center of the system for
orbital mechanics.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:24:32 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: re: Battledress

>I mean, are you going to
>give the PC the new version of the "SuperBD" and let them use it for an
>in-game year untill the enemy introduces a weapon that takes it out?
Sounds
>like great fun playing an invulnerable character for that time, no
>challenge, no chance of being harmed... well, maybe it doesn't.  At least
in
>CT, BD was more even.  You were at least vulnerable and needed it, perhaps
>to stand a chance on the battle field, not invulnerable and able to
>withstand EVERYTHING on the battle field.  But who cares about playability?

You either didn't read all my posts or are choosing to ignore them.
Repeating: Just because an item exists doesn't mean that it is appropriate
for use by PC's in all situations.  I've always limited use of high powered
items like BD's to the appropriate military campaigns. Just as I limit the
use of F-15's or Bradley Fighting Vehicles to military campaigns when I run
a contemporary GURPS game.

It's the GM's job to make sure the game is balanced.  I'm had games
(non-Traveller) with planet busting world killers. Was that boring to my
players? I hope not. They seemed to enjoy it. I've also run espionage games
where the heaviest weapon was a 45 cal handgun.  Use what the situation
requires. If you can't find a use for BD, don't introduce it into YTU.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:20:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Tech Levels (was BDress)

>> Doug, I think part of the problem is that, although GURPS Traveller
>> originaly claimed to be porting the Traveller setting to GURPS, as you (and
>> other writers) use more and more GURPS rules you are beginning to alter the
>> Traveller setting.
>
>Much of the problem is that in many ways, traveller TL 15 is really only about
>TL 10 in GURPS -- probably be more accurate to call TTL 8-9 GTL 8, TTL 10-12
>GTL 9, TTL 13-15 GTL 10.  Then you _really_ have to muck with such things as
>nuke dampers and contragravity, though, and you probably have to shift fusion
>power by a TL as well, plus it winds up being overall pretty low resolution,
>which is kinda annoying (hm...zhodani and imperials are same TL).
>>

I agree, but: In MT, tech level differences often make little difference in
performance.  In TNE the differences again tended to cluster around certain
breakpoints (many of the FF&S1 tables were direct lifts from MT).

Breakpoints (Listed as TTL) in MT by category.
Vehicular Armor Materials	5,6,7,9,10,12,14,17
PP (IC & Nuke)			5,6,7,8,9,13,15,16,17,17,19,20,21	[1]
Batteries			Every TL
Fuel Cells			10,13,15,16
Jump Drives			9,11,12,13,14,15,16
Jump Drive Fuel			9,17,18,19,20
M-Drive				9,11
Gravitic Suspension		9,10,12
Walker Suspension		8,9,10
Commo & Sensors			5,6,7,8,9,10,12,14,15,16,17,18,20	[2]
	Commo Types		5,8,15
	Sensor Types		5,6,7,8,9,10,11,13
Screens				12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21
	Screen types		12,14,15,19,20
Computers			Every from 6-21
Control Panels & add-ons	5,6,7,8,9,10,12,13

[1] there are small differences between these in terms of minimum size.
[2] note that some begin higer in the scale. Also this category is actually
two comnbined to save bandwidth

Plotting these to a histogram
5	********
6	********
7	********
8	*********
9	*************
10	**********
11	*****
12	**********
13	********
14	********
15	**********
16	********
17	********
18	*******
19	******
20	********
21	****

Gurps, however, in vehicles has almost all technologies improving per each
TL; a much different approach. to TL's, as well as the expressed "non-fit"
between GTL and the available materials and the TTL->GTL conversion
process... this latter is more than just "equivalent TL, as note every GT
"advance" is parralleled by Traveller.

For Battle Dress, the important Breakpoints  past TTL 11 should be:
Armor	(breakpoints at 12,14,17)
Fuel Cells (BP at TTL 13,15) &/or batteries
Legged locomotion (no Trav changes past TTL 12)
Commo Breakpoint at TTL 12,14,15,16
Sensors Breakpoint at TTL 12,14,15,16
Gravitics (BP at TTL 12)

Consolidating these TTL's 11,12,14,15,16,17
Twice as many changes as GTL's 10-12
And the net measurable effect is less in Traveller than in the jump from
GTL10-11...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #830
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 831



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battledress
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress...
Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
Re: Versions
Re: Battledress...
Re: Versions 
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Re: Versions 
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Re: Battledress
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress...
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Re: Battledress...
Re: A question about the Civil War

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:05:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress

At 01:32 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote:

>> Outside a military campaign, these things should never, ever show up.  The
>> AD&D equivalent would be a Lich with the Hand and Eye of Vecna wield the
>> Rod of Seven Parts.  The average PC group will be severely outclassed.

>Now that's hyperbole, right? And some campains *are* military. I
>*eventually* got my BD. And I can't be turned by *any* level cleric.

Of course it's hyperbole.  If the campaign is military then Battledress
might be used, but so will the weapons that will penetrate it.

Let me put it this way, would you wear a bullet proof vest that failed one
time in ten?  Use a parachute design with that failute rate?  The best
Battledress that I can come up with (and I'm still in the early noodling
around stages) that doesn't "scrape the corridor walls" as someone put it
has armor with that level of protection against a FGMP-12.

So our mighty Marines aren't strolling through eveything.  Against the
Freedonia Milita, yes.  They'll ignore most attacks.  But againsy other
pros, they'll have a real fight on their hands.

>> Classic Traveller was last published in 1986.  That's thirteen years ago.
>> If you want to play Classic, fine.   Have fun.
>
>I am playing CT, and I am having fun, and I am advising other CT players to
>ignore that crack. I am sure it is not indicative of the entire GURPs
>community as my GURPs playing friend also plays CT. Bare bones CT. As I
>said, our resources were disasterously depleted.

My point is that CT exists, is enjoyed by many, as is *not* being published
by SJG.  Trust me, if I do write the book, and put a substandard suit of
armor in there, I'll hear about it and dozens of "fixed" versions will pop
up on web pages.  I want to do it right the first time.  So your merchant
characters can't stop the Marine.  That's why he's a Marine, and you are
merchants.  If nothing else, aim for the visor (-9 to hit, 1/2 DR)

>> But in GURPS, you can build excellent armor.  The design I'm building has
>> 850 points of armor on the torso and head, somewhat less on the arms and
>> legs.  That will still allow a penetrating hit by a FGMP-12 about 10-15%
>of the time.  As an exercise, I shot my armor with a AP round from a M1A2, 
>>and it shredded the armor.  So just get a TL7 tank and you're set.

>See? GURPs has limits, and they apply across the board. As long as all
>vehicles, structures, etc, are created under the same rules, I fail to see a
>problem. I'm not sure I like a TL7 tank busting me up, but I wonder, did you
>just shoot a suit, or pit a BD trooper vs a TL7 Tank?  ;-)

Just the flat armor.  Since the penetrating damage was a bit over 200
points, I think we can safely say that the Graves Registration Unit was
equipped with sponges and small baggies for this one.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:23:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 11:25 AM 7/8/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Well, according to the Discovery Channel, an Abrams can be killed with
>current generation weapon systems, and even systems available before it was
>designed... but in a BD comparison, you still have a crew of more than one
>man operating the machine, not a single supertrooper pertending to be a tank
>with the protection of a tank attached to his arms and legs

If you go back 150 years, what do you think the leading military lights of
the day would say about a modern infantryman, able to produce singlehandedly 
a volume of fire equal to that of a contemporary company at ranges only the 
cannons can reach.

Infantrymen today have more capabilities than when I was in during the
1980s.  Kevlar helmets, body armor you can wear in hot conditions, GPS..

A battlesuit trooper doesn't think he's a tank, he thinks he's a trooper,
and that how he trains and fights.
>
>>         If the fireteam sees the BD Trooper moving in on them and puts up
>> their hands because they know they can't win, then *that* is a properly
>> designed set of BD.  If they say "hmmm....  we've got 30% odds of taking
>him, theres 4 of us, *he's* screwed...  Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba-BLAM" then that is *not*
>a properly designed set of BD.
>
>But it doesn't seem that a fireteam can even consider taking out the single
>BD troopie before the marine gets out his toaster... no 30%, 4 of us about
>it!

That's where tactics come in.  Time and again in Vietnam, the wildly
outgunned Viet Cong would successfully attack American formations by using
hit and run ambushes.  You have to develop anti-BD tactics.  

Set up an anti-armor missile as an off-route mine with a mechanical
trigger.  The trigger is a pneumatic tube conceal under some leaves/debris.
 First thing weighing over 400lbs to step on the tube launches the missile
at extremely close range.. less than 20m.  BOOM.  One dead Marine.

>>         If you are concerned about playability, what are your players
>>doing in BD *anyway*?  That's like complaining that the Trepidia they are a 
>>crew of is too tough?
>
>That reference was made in relation to the idea that the supplement in
>discussion was about BD-equiped PC's (in service campaigns?).  Do I see 6x
>PC's sitting down around the table with their GM, "Um, you guys won't need
>your dice tonight, you are all equiped with BD and FBG's (if you are an
>adult, you know what an FBG is), rocket launcers, and the usual sensor
>suite... 

That's poor GMing.  Think back to _Starship Troopers_ in the first battle
against the Skinnies, Rico and his section leader have to deal with a
comrade who's armor has been breached.  The problem is how to make the
pick-up boat.  That's what a military campaign should be.  Not just endless
chanting of "roll to hit, roll for damage."


>But it is not proposed that IM's in BD are fielded only against other
>troopies in BD, and I get the distinct impression that they are now special
>forces that specialise in being fielded against inferior forces (SAS don't
>normally get fielded against those who are equal or better than themselves
>on a level playing field).  Furthermore, from pro-BD posts, BD can hide from
>armour which cannot hide from it.  BD seems to be equiped to take out said
>armour and employ all manner of counter measures against said armour's
>weapon systems, not to mention naval support against enemy armour
>deployment.

Yep.  Ain't life grand?

There is a very simple solution.  Excuse me for yelling.

DON'T RUN AN IMPERIAL MARINE CAMPAIGN!!	

If the concept of tough, usable battledress so offends you, run a campaign
set in the 467th Halftrack, Gravedigging, and Support Battalion (50 pfennig
to the first person to identify the reference.)  You can run Traveller for
years without ever having need to encounter, or use battledress.

>Just seems that the rules as they once stood (CT) covered everything in that
>regard.  The rules now seem to say, "GURPS BD is unstoppable, but if the GM
>wishes to make it so (stoppable), he will have to invest his own valuable
>time in doing it, because the rules were created in the author's perfect
>image of how things are and no-one is going to change that, so there."

Speaking as the person who wishes to be the author of this supplement..
damn right I'm right.  Sorry if that sounds egocentric, but I have been
shot at by professional people who really wanted to kill me.  If I had been
offered a chance to pilot a suit of battledress that would offer me
excellent protection against 90% of the weapons fielded, I, and any other
sane dogface, would leap at the chance.

As I've posted before, the battledress I'm designing has a failure rate of
around 10% against advanced fusion weapons.  While that would be wholly
unacceptable in Real Life(tm), it'll work for game purposes.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:29:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 11:43 PM 7/7/99 -0300, Michel wrote:

>        War is miserable for role-playing.  It doesn't treat PC's as
>special, it doesn't give a rat's a$$ about game balance and its full of
>tragedies.  As a ref, I try not to directly involve my players in "war".
>See my TNEC "Saviour's Race" game log on my web-site (URL in sig) if you are
>interested in seeing what I get players to do when there is a war on.

This is a wonderful point.  War is the worst possible RPG enviroment.  If
you are active duty, them somebody is always ordering you around, useally
to do incredibly stupid things that don't make sense.  (Anybody wan't to
know what life is like for a US army infantryman?  You ride around in abox,
which tehn stops.  You run out having no idea where you are, assault some
objective, get back in the box, a ride around some more.  Repeat as
necessary.)

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:31:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

At 05:57 PM 7/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Robert Prior wrote:
>>
>>>Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
>>>Lyn-class Fighter
>>>Streiftog-class Destroyer
>>
>>I see that someone has gotten themself a Norwegian dictionery.
>>Cool to see those names :-)
>
>Only a pocket one, I'm afraid. The names really should be Icelandic, but I
>figure this is better than nothing, and I'll save the Icelandic for when I
>get better at designing GTL9 ships.

What are they in English, and I'll check my resources.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:32:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
 
> Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)

It's okay, but only if call all of us Bruce.  Otherwise, we won't be
able to keep things straight.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:38:59 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----------
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:
>
> 
> Just seems that the rules as they once stood (CT) covered everything in
that
> regard.  The rules now seem to say, "GURPS BD is unstoppable, but if the
GM
> wishes to make it so (stoppable), he will have to invest his own valuable
> time in doing it, because the rules were created in the author's perfect
> image of how things are and no-one is going to change that, so there."

NO ONE EVER SAID THIS!!!  Sorry to yell, but this GURPS bashing is getting
rather insulting.  GURPS has only one core rule: all rules are optional.
Even more that most games, GURPS encourages players to use only the
material that makes sense in their game.  If you don't like Commando
battledress, don't use it.  No one ever said you had to, and I doubt many
people will.  If it ever appears in another GT product I will be greatly
surprised, because it has generated vocal opposition even within the GT
playtesting community.  (The fact that this item was never playtested
clearly contributed to the problem.)

I'm disturbed that there seems to be an incredible fixation on this one
particular flawed item of equipment.  If you ignore Commando BD there is NO
PROBLEM WHATSOVER with the portrayal of Battledress in GT.  The standard
Battledress described in the main GT rule book is vulnerable to a wide
variety of individual weapons, including grenade launchers, gauss rifles
(firing specialized ammunition), Laser rifles, Light assault guns, squad
support weapons, and of course man-portable fusion guns.  In some cases,
you have to settle for hitting limbs, but in GURPS this will disable people
rather effectively.

It seems to me that a lot of people here are latching onto one bad design
to slam GT  because they don't like the idea of a new system for Traveller,
especially one they clearly don't understand.  If for some reason people
don't like GT, that's fine, but I for one am tired of being treated like a
second-class citizen because I do.  Warts and all, GURPS is a damn sight
better vehicle for Traveller than some versions GDW put out (TNE for one
major example).  Compared to the violence TNE did to the basic spirit of
Traveller, nothing GT has done is even worth mentioning.  
(I imagine that's a whole 'nother flame war waiting to happen, but I'm
going on vacation for a week.  Save the napalm until I get back.)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 00:48:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>  
> > Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)
> 
> It's okay, but only if call all of us Bruce.  Otherwise, we won't be
> able to keep things straight.

Right, Bruce.  Just remember Rule #6:  There *IS* no Rule #6!!!

Bruce, er, *Keven*

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 02:06:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > 
> > > The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
> > > Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) necessarily fare
> > > better in a new environment with 'younger' flora and fauna (Earthly), in
> > > the absence of design?
> > >
> > > The implication is that adaptability improves with age of ecosystem.
> > >
> > > My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is more likely
> > > as lineages move to fill ever more specialised niches with time.
> > >
> > > Thoughts? Constructive comments?
> > 
> > I can see this happening.  An ecosystem that is half a billion years older than ours would have an extra half billion years worth of experience adapting to ever increasing evolutionary pressure.  After all, how old is our ecosystem?  Two, three billion years?
> > 
> 
> Ecosystems do not 'get experience'. Ecosystems simply are. The various life
> forms filling the niches of those systems may be more or less adaptable, but
> that's true no matter the ages of the system. Ecosystems change, sometimes
> gradually, sometimes catastrophically, but there's no accumulated
> 'evolutionary experience'. As proof of that look at the various mass
> extinctions that have occurred here.

Cultures evolve following the rules of Lamarkian evolution, not Darwinian 
evolution.  And yes, 'lesser species' *do* have cultures.  Just watch some 
tapes of coyotes or elk sometime.  They may not be very culturally evolved, 
mind you, but they have a culture.

Mass extinctions occur when a niche is closed, or a better niche filler 
appears.  If your species is a 'one-trick pony', its days are numbered.
 
> The earths ecosystem 2-3 billion years ago would be, in Traveller terms, an
> insidious, exotic atmosphere with no hydrosphere. 200 million years ago, most
> of the worlds land masses were tropical or semitropical. 30,000 years ago the
> Earth's ecosphere was a marked division between warm equatorial regions and
> ice-locked northern and southern regions, with a tiny, moving temperate zone
> in between. We seem to be moving towards a hotter ecosystem today, which may
> or may not be influenced by human activity.
> 
> Species that have become adaptable enough to survive mass extinctions, on a
> geological scale are 'more fit' but in the time frame of conscious human
> activity no evolution takes place. If the older ecosystem fluctuates widely in
> conditions on a human time scale, then a sentient evolved in that ecosystem is
> going to be more adaptable than humans, but it has nothing to do with the age
> of the ecosystem, only that it's been around long enough to evolve humans (or Chtorr).

Ah, but life creates the capacity for more life.  Check out the ecology of a 
rain forest sometime, as compared to a sand desert.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 02:23:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> On 07/07/99 at 04:47 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:
> 
> >>         There are a couple of good XWindows spreadsheet programs that will
> >> allow this sort of thing.  Heck, worse comes to worst, get a copy of Perfect
> >> Office for Linux and use the spreadsheet package that comes with it, which
> >> is just as feature rich as Excel.
> 
> >Corel ported the entire office suite to Linux???  *COOL*!!  Last I'd
> >heard, they'd just ported Word Perfect over.  I used to use Paradox a
> >*LOT*, and I think it's one of the *best* databases out there, and
> >*WAY* overdue for porting to Xwindows.  <grin>
> 
> They are porting the whole thing, but I don't think it's out yet.
> Probably, will come out about the time Corel releases their Linux
> distribution this fall.  I'm looking for big fanfair when that
> happens.

Yeah, I checked the site, & read a lotta 'smoke and mirrors' there.
 
> BTW, here's an aside to my players...  I've been wondering gang,
> what version of Traveller am *I* running in the Akus Moby game?
> Yeah, I know "None of the above" sums it up, but what version does
> it feel most like?

I'd have to say, TNE with some aftermarket enhancements.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:40:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

>Ah, but life creates the capacity for more life.  Check out the ecology of
a
>rain forest sometime, as compared to a sand desert.


Pshaw! It's well known that animals in a sand desert naturally evolve the
ability to bend light around them so that they are completely invisible.
This also helps to protect them from cooking in the hot sun.

Just because you can't *see* the teeming life in the desert doesn't mean
they're not there. I know.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 23:52:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battledress

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: Battledress
...
>> far more powerful and ridiculously more survivable than in CT.
>> 
>They're moderately friendly to mecha and battlesuits, but not dreadfully so. 
>The reason GT battlesuits look tough is that GTL 12 'advanced laminate armor'
>is about 5x stronger, weight for weight, than bonded superdense (the 'advanced
>metal' which tanks have is only about 3x stronger; the 'expensive metal' used
>in starship armor is about 2x stronger)

  <grumble>  Which means that rather than ever use G:T as written I'm much
more likely to treat it as CT/MT source material as I'd originally planned;
the basic book looks like it will make a great "Players Handbook".

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:55:27 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress...



>
> >But it is not proposed that IM's in BD are fielded only against other
> >troopies in BD, and I get the distinct impression that they are now
special
> >forces that specialise in being fielded against inferior forces (SAS
don't
> >normally get fielded against those who are equal or better than
themselves
> >on a level playing field).  Furthermore, from pro-BD posts, BD can hide
from
> >armour which cannot hide from it.  BD seems to be equiped to take out
said
> >armour and employ all manner of counter measures against said armour's
> >weapon systems, not to mention naval support against enemy armour
> >deployment.
>
> Yep.  Ain't life grand?
>

Answers a recent post from someone who said this wasn't the intention,
anyway, so it is.  So not even the supporters have a clue?

> >Just seems that the rules as they once stood (CT) covered everything in
that
> >regard.  The rules now seem to say, "GURPS BD is unstoppable, but if the
GM
> >wishes to make it so (stoppable), he will have to invest his own valuable
> >time in doing it, because the rules were created in the author's perfect
> >image of how things are and no-one is going to change that, so there."
>
> Speaking as the person who wishes to be the author of this supplement..
> damn right I'm right.  Sorry if that sounds egocentric,

It does in fact sound egocentric, answers a lot of questions, but begs the
question why you ask for input anyway?  But thanks for clearing that up.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:04:07 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Schoene <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress...



>
> I'm disturbed that there seems to be an incredible fixation on this one
> particular flawed item of equipment.  If you ignore Commando BD there is
NO
> PROBLEM WHATSOVER with the portrayal of Battledress in GT.  The standard
> Battledress described in the main GT rule book is vulnerable to a wide
> variety of individual weapons, including grenade launchers, gauss rifles
> (firing specialized ammunition), Laser rifles, Light assault guns, squad
> support weapons, and of course man-portable fusion guns.  In some cases,
> you have to settle for hitting limbs, but in GURPS this will disable
people
> rather effectively.
>

My gripe, and that of some others was ORIGINALLY (not a yell, a accent on
the word) that not only was it a supersuit, but IM's are not allowed to be
seen without it, and you couldn't generate a given IM character without
devoting (even minimal) skills to it.  The supersuit started to snowball
from that...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:51:30 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress...


>My gripe, and that of some others was ORIGINALLY (not a yell, a accent on
>the word) that not only was it a supersuit, but IM's are not allowed to be
>seen without it, and you couldn't generate a given IM character without
>devoting (even minimal) skills to it.  The supersuit started to snowball
>from that...


Actually, you've pretty much had a gripe with just about anything you don't
agree with. Going over your posts to the list on the subject of Impie
marines and GURPS in general seems to give me the impression that you're
actively attempting to foment outrage over Doug's idea of the Impie marines
by whatever means necessary: overstatement of the claims of the people
you're debating with, vague insults, appeals to the list for support,
theatrical sniping at your opponents in posts to agreeing third parties and
so on.

So, what is it? Are you looking to start a "Doug's marines are stupid, my
marines are ultra-cool" flamewar, or a GT vs. CT flamewar, or are you simply
just inclined towards harping on things that you disagree with?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 04:02:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

> >Ah, but life creates the capacity for more life.  Check out the ecology of
> a
> >rain forest sometime, as compared to a sand desert.
> 
> 
> Pshaw! It's well known that animals in a sand desert naturally evolve the
> ability to bend light around them so that they are completely invisible.
> This also helps to protect them from cooking in the hot sun.
> 
> Just because you can't *see* the teeming life in the desert doesn't mean
> they're not there. I know.

I lived in the New Mexico & Arizona deserts for about 8 months.  I'm well 
aware of the diversity of the ecology.  I *also* spent about 3 1/2 years in a 
rain forest, and I'm aware of how much *more* diverse it is compared to the 
desert ecology.  There's a lot more niches in a rain forest.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 04:33:28 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr


>> Pshaw! It's well known that animals in a sand desert naturally evolve the
>> ability to bend light around them so that they are completely invisible.
>> This also helps to protect them from cooking in the hot sun.
>>
>> Just because you can't *see* the teeming life in the desert doesn't mean
>> they're not there. I know.
>
>I lived in the New Mexico & Arizona deserts for about 8 months.  I'm well
>aware of the diversity of the ecology.  I *also* spent about 3 1/2 years in
a
>rain forest, and I'm aware of how much *more* diverse it is compared to the
>desert ecology.  There's a lot more niches in a rain forest.


Hehe... Maybe I should have put a big smiley after that. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:02:14 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 3:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Battledress...
>
>
> >My gripe, and that of some others was ORIGINALLY (not a yell, a accent on
> >the word) that not only was it a supersuit, but IM's are not allowed to
be
> >seen without it, and you couldn't generate a given IM character without
> >devoting (even minimal) skills to it.  The supersuit started to snowball
> >from that...
>
>
> Actually, you've pretty much had a gripe with just about anything you
don't
> agree with. Going over your posts to the list on the subject of Impie
> marines and GURPS in general seems to give me the impression that you're
> actively attempting to foment outrage over Doug's idea of the Impie
marines
> by whatever means necessary: overstatement of the claims of the people
> you're debating with, vague insults, appeals to the list for support,
> theatrical sniping at your opponents in posts to agreeing third parties
and
> so on.
>
> So, what is it? Are you looking to start a "Doug's marines are stupid, my
> marines are ultra-cool" flamewar, or a GT vs. CT flamewar, or are you
simply
> just inclined towards harping on things that you disagree with?
>

I don't have any marines...?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:54:46 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War

OK, so pretty much everyone who has answered my question seems to see the
Civil War as having been sporadic fighting and a bunch of coups.  This was
basically what I was thinking too.

What this suggests to me is that M:600 is kind of like M:1100 at a lower
tech level, with more psionics (it's before the suppressions), and at least
sporadically a bit less law and order (when the Fleet's away, the pirates
play...).  

It probably would feature a bit more bickering between noble
factions, with cliques busily denouncing each other to whichever warlord is
dominant at the time, and sometimes dropping their Huscarles (or borrowed
Marines!) on each other, in a way they couldn't usually do in
(non-Rebellion) M:1100.  

It could also have the odd Naval fleet entering the picture, repairing
itself, or fighting a rival fleet, then leaving again - a kind of
convenient war that goes away when the referee wants it to.  It could also
be a good setting for Trillion Credit Squadron, although the fleets would
tend to use the same ships.  

The noble decapitation strikes would be a good excuse for Striker games
too, incidentally.  You could capture whole worlds with a single regiment
of Marines/Huscarles, and your Huscarles could possibly get to prove that
those I'renes aren't quite as good as they think they are...

All this just seems to make it a slightly higher chaos version of M:1100
though.  I'm not quite sure there's enough difference to make it worth
playing it rather than the 'easy' option of M:1100.  But that possibility
of kicking the Marines around does have some appeal...

I'm going to keep working on it though, just to keep my brain occupied. 
I'm working on some notes on the Emperors List, trying to work out who
these weenies are.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #831
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 832



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress...
Re: Versions 
Re: Versions 
Re: Battledress...
DSR NOE and FC?
TML Archives
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Battledress...
Sword world ships
Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_ 
Re: Versions
RE: Battledress...
RE: Equipment Failure
RE: Battledress
RE: Biodiversity over time
Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Sword world ships

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 03:19:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 05:04 PM 7/8/99 +1000, you wrote:

>My gripe, and that of some others was ORIGINALLY (not a yell, a accent on
>the word) that not only was it a supersuit, but IM's are not allowed to be
>seen without it, and you couldn't generate a given IM character without
>devoting (even minimal) skills to it.  The supersuit started to snowball
>from that...

I will pay cash money for you to show me where anybody said that Marines
were "never seen" without Battledress.  We've been saying that it's the
combat uniform.  I can show you at least five posts where I mention other
uniforms for different duties.

As I've pointed out (repeatedly), to force a CT player to devote an
equivilant amount of skill to Battledress that a GT Marine devotes would
require that the Marine spend have two skill levels out of 98 others.  The
required expenditure is only 1.4% of the total!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 03:22:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 04:55 PM 7/8/99 +1000, you wrote:

>> Yep.  Ain't life grand?

>Answers a recent post from someone who said this wasn't the intention,
>anyway, so it is.  So not even the supporters have a clue?

I was commenting on the ability to not get wounded by most enemy fire.  I
have to ask, have you ever been shot at?

>> Speaking as the person who wishes to be the author of this supplement..
>> damn right I'm right.  Sorry if that sounds egocentric,
>
>It does in fact sound egocentric, answers a lot of questions, but begs the
>question why you ask for input anyway?  But thanks for clearing that up.

I ask for feedback for constructive criticism, not constant harping on the
fact that GT isn't CT, a game that's been out of print for over a decade.

You say that GT Battledress is too tough, I ask (over and over again) if
you'd trust a bullet proof vest that fails one time in ten.  Well?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 03:24:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

At 12:48 AM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>>  
>> > Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)
>> 
>> It's okay, but only if call all of us Bruce.  Otherwise, we won't be
>> able to keep things straight.
>
>Right, Bruce.  Just remember Rule #6:  There *IS* no Rule #6!!!
>
>Bruce, er, *Keven*

You've obviously never been to one of Aahz's Rule 6 parties.

Doug "Bruce" Berry
dberry@hooked.net
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 06:29:54 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> At 12:48 AM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> >>  
> >> > Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)
> >> 
> >> It's okay, but only if call all of us Bruce.  Otherwise, we won't be
> >> able to keep things straight.
> >
> >Right, Bruce.  Just remember Rule #6:  There *IS* no Rule #6!!!
> >
> >Bruce, er, *Keven*
> 
> You've obviously never been to one of Aahz's Rule 6 parties.
> 
> Doug "Bruce" Berry

Problem is, Bruce, that he's liable to get lost in the shuffle.  Can't we just
call him Bruce?  It would make things a *LOT* easier.

Bruce, er, *Keven*

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 06:58:29 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----------
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> 
> 
> >
> My gripe, and that of some others was ORIGINALLY (not a yell, a accent on
> the word) that not only was it a supersuit, but IM's are not allowed to
be
> seen without it, and you couldn't generate a given IM character without
> devoting (even minimal) skills to it.  The supersuit started to snowball
> from that...

If you're gripping about Doug Berry's views on Imperial Marines, you need
to recognize that he doesn't even have a contract to write the book yet. 
His proposal is one man's opinion, not GT canon.  And it's clear that
people are misunderstanding what he's proposed, either because they didn't
read them properly or don't understand GURPS.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:19:52 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <1141-504@onlinehome.de>
Subject: DSR NOE and FC?

What modifier ist flying NOE and/or TF?

is it "atmosphere of xx"

or

plus "same hex as planet"

or plus "landed"

or plus "landed and camouflaged"

....

What modifiers do I get for underwater?

- -----

If I'm getting a fire control on what ever, and it is in effectivy range of my weapons. Do get an hit with beam weapons 
automatically?

Thank in advance
Jens Maskus

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 99 22:15:00 +0930
From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: TML Archives

Greetings!

I was bored around 0200 this morning, so I decided to clean up some of my 
mailboxes.  I got carried away...  Around 17 hours later I have a bit 
over 157 MB of uncompressed TML Digests, neatly sorted by volume and 
issue, on my Mac's hard disk.

1994 - 148 digests - 2.7 MB
1995 - 383 digests - 7.6 MB
1996 - 971 digests - 27.7 MB
1997 - 1,419 digests - 47.1 MB
1998 - 1,416 digests - 45.6 MB
1999 - 830 digests - 26.2 MB (so far)

During my cleaning, I discovered that I was missing a few digests, and 
also that one seemed truncated.  I have checked ftp.mpgn.com and their 
archives show the same thing, so I don't think it's Emailer gobbling up 
files.

The volume.issue of the digests in question are as follows:

- ---
1994.1 - missing (suspect that it never existed)

1996.680? - there was about half-a-week (19960304..19960308) during which 
I received no digests as we transitioned to the new list server.  The 
last message I got from the old server was in digest 679 and was dated 
Sat, 4 May 1996 15:49:09 -0500 (CDT).  Did any digests beyond 679 emanate 
from the old server?

1996.60..69 - missing (from the new server)
1997.843 - contents but no body (truncated)
1997.2125..2127 - missing
1997.2140..2141 - missing
1998.173 - missing
1998.202 - missing
- ---

If anybody has a copy of any of the above digests, I'd really appreciate 
you forwarding them on.

Once I have all the missing pieces, I'm going to run a few filters over 
the lot and clean out any garbage, like requests to unsubscribe, bounced 
mail messages, autoresponders, gratuitous headers and footers, and 
so-forth.  I reckon I can get the whole lot, the last five years, down to 
less than 65 MB (compressed).  Anyone got 65 MB of space free on a 
Traveller-centric FTP site with big pipes?

Anyway, once I've got a cleaned up and uniformly formatted master 
archive, I plan on doing two things:

1)  Creating a "Top 100 Threads" sub-archive which, not surprisingly, 
will contain the Top 100 Threads.  I figure the most interesting threads 
will run for the longest time, and generate the largest numbers of 
messages, so I plan on simply working out which threads generated the 
largest numbers of messages and using those.  If you have a better 
suggestion, let me know.

2)  Just for the heck of it, I'm going to crunch a rough word count for 
every single person who's ever posted a message to the list.  From that 
I'll extract a "Top 100 Writers" list which I will, naturally, post back 
to the TML.  Apart from letting you gauge how much time you've spent 
writing messages, I don't know what use such a list would be, but hey, 
that's what a Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister is for, right?

If anyone wants any specific information sucked out of the archive, now 
would be a good time to speak up - before the adrenaline runs out.

Oh, and if I happen to be reproducing the work of someone else, please 
*don't* tell me - I'm currently in such a good mood that the last thing I 
need to hear is that I've just wasted a day of my life.

Take it easy.

Henry.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 06:58:09 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:05:52
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Battledress
>
>There is a very simple solution.  Excuse me for yelling.
>
>DON'T RUN AN IMPERIAL MARINE CAMPAIGN!!	

That is ridiculous and insulting, from someone who wants to write a
playable, viable and marketable supplement. All of the material you present
must support balanced, interesting campaigns, or you are wasting people's
time and money. Sure, every person who reads it will find something not to
like. When you receive this much opposition, though, and your only recourse
seems to be "because that's the way I like it", doesn't that tell you
something?

Go back and re-read the wishlist from SJ Games:

"The author of this book should be familiar not only with GURPS Traveller,
but also the *original* Classic Traveller source material." [emphasis in
the original]

This says to me you *do* have an obligation to simulate CT as best you can,
under GURPS.

[That also, by the way, is the reason that CT takes precedence over other
versions for GT authors -- because that's the way SJ Games wants it. This
presumably also reflects their licensing agreement with Mr. Miller.]

>>Just seems that the rules as they once stood (CT) covered everything in that
>>regard.  The rules now seem to say, "GURPS BD is unstoppable, but if the GM
>>wishes to make it so (stoppable), he will have to invest his own valuable
>>time in doing it, because the rules were created in the author's perfect
>>image of how things are and no-one is going to change that, so there."
>
>Speaking as the person who wishes to be the author of this supplement..
>damn right I'm right.  Sorry if that sounds egocentric, but I have been
>shot at by professional people who really wanted to kill me.  If I had been
>offered a chance to pilot a suit of battledress that would offer me
>excellent protection against 90% of the weapons fielded, I, and any other
>sane dogface, would leap at the chance.

Agreed, but irrelevant: you know as well as I do, in the real world
designers rarely ask for your opinion, let alone allow the dogface to
design his own suit in isolation, with an unlimited budget of cash, weight,
volume, and maintenance support. 

>As I've posted before, the battledress I'm designing has a failure rate of
>around 10% against advanced fusion weapons.  While that would be wholly
>unacceptable in Real Life(tm), it'll work for game purposes.

There is a fundamental flaw in this logic, and it stems from confusing a
game mechanic (the GURPS Vehicles design system) with its in-game result.

GURPS Vehicles is a meta-system -- a system for setting up a vehicle design
system. It *has* to be, to cover even just the worlds and technologies that
are represented by published GURPS sourcebooks, let alone whatever else
could be dreamed up. In order to apply it to a particular setting, the
author or GM has to first decide what is applicable to his setting. "The
rules are there, so I'm going to use them" might be an acceptable argument
for something like HG, which exists only within a particular setting
(though I personally find that sort of munchkinism repulsive), but cannot
be naively applied to GURPS Vehicles without breaking the system. 

No one would argue that GT should be able to use force fields and
deflectors, simply because they are included in GURPS Vehicles. High-TL
advanced laminate armor or armor above a certain DR for battlesuits may
well be equally suspect *in the GT setting*. The point is that the author
must make deliberate choices that reflect the setting he is trying to
present. It is this point that the designer of the infamous Commando BD
either ignored or forgot.


Moreover, in the real world weapons systems are not the product of a single
genius with unlimited resources (which is to what a game master with all
the rules in front of him amounts), but rather a process of many hands,
many agendas, and many compromises. *Everything* is designed and built by
committee; *everything* is subject to Clauswitzian "friction" and "fog of
war". Take a look at the prototyping rules in the self-same GURPS Vehicles
(pp. 201-202) for just one example: how many iterations of find-the-flaw,
fix-the-flaw do you think your average bureaucracy will go through before
they decide a design is "good enough"?

Other factors influence weapons design, not the least of which is "cost
effectiveness". This is *not* defined by the steely-eyed killers who
actually have to use the bloody thing, but by the bean-counters who bought
it (and a million more like it). Every system, including weapons, has a
replacements, parts, and logistics stream that is invisible to the killers
- -- the "life-cycle costs" -- that will define what gets bought and what
does not. Those bean-counters will buy the system that provides the best
"bang for the buck"; incremental but expensive improvements in capability
will simply not make the cut, however nice they might be to have. 

This is not to say that the battlesuits issued to the Imperial Marines
won't be capable, or even the best available -- they will. But there are
plenty of *in-game* reasons why they will not be _overwhelmingly_ capable,
without ever having to invoke playability or game balance. 

To cite two examples:

(1) The M1 tank is indeed extremely capable. It is not invulnerable,
however: that lovely Chobham armor is only applied to the front slope. The
other five faces of the hull and turret are vulnerable to a wide variety of
weapons -- rather more than your acceptable 10% failure rate. The reason?
Weight and performance primarily, but also the realization that the frontal
armor protection is probably *good enough* to accomplish the mission
envisioned for the vehicle. [In battlesuits, even that frontal armor will
almost certainly be traded away for the ability to take cover and hide. So
a battlesuit that is as well-protected as the *side* armor on an M1 is
probably sufficient -- and "sufficient" is what gets bought.]

(2) Union soldiers in the American Civil War were issued obsolete
muzzle-loading rifles, despite the fact that reliable breach-loading
repeaters were available, and proved tactically decisive on more than one
occassion (cf. Wilson's Brigade at Chickamauga). The reason? The Ordnance
Department felt that soldiers equipped with repeaters would be prone to
waste ammunition (which was heavier and more costly anyway), and the
advantages did not outweigh the extra expense.


Having a vision of the desired result and being able to keep it clearly in
mind is absolutely necessary to writing a book-length supplement. Allowing
that vision to blind you to every other consideration -- especially the
avowed purpose of the book and its intended audience -- is a recipe for
disaster. I submit, Mr. Berry, that what you want to write is a *game*, one
that is supposed to be played and enjoyed, and one that is supposed to
reflect certain established parameters collectively called "canon", however
contradictory those parameters might be. It is not a treatise on all the
problems you saw as an infantryman and how you would fix them in a perfect
world.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:28:17 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Battledress...
> Date: Wednesday, 07 July, 1999 11:22 PM


> You say that GT Battledress is too tough, I ask (over and over again) if
> you'd trust a bullet proof vest that fails one time in ten.  Well?

The US military does.  Anyone here think a PASGT vest will stop rifle
rounds nine times out of ten at typical infantry combat ranges?  Probably
not.  You can, and probably should, apply the same logic to battledress. 
It should reduce or eliminate "nuisance" damage (the same way PASGT handles
pistol rounds and fragments) but direct fire from opposing infantry is
something you avoid or suppress.  IMO, the "original" BD in GT works like
this fairly well; but significant uparmoring will cause problems.

The point of a game is to be entertaining.  GT is not supposed to be a
military simulation, it's supposed to be an adventure game.  I submit that
if there's no risk, there's not a whole lot of adventure.  Battledress
should mot make firefights risk free because doing so would make the game
less fun.  

As an example, there has been a discussion on Pyramid about the appropriate
levels of armor for warships.  The consensus is that armor protection
should be deliberately constrained to avoid creating unstoppable
juggernauts.  The ability to exclude median damage from bay weapons at half
damage range was considered sufficient, with turrets having much less
armor.  This last was adopted specifically to replicate the High Guard
mechanic of having turrets vulnerable even in heavily armored designs.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:38:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Prankard <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Sword world ships

Great work on the Sword World ships.  I was wondering how effective a ship
built with GTL9 would work.
Pretty much as I'd though.  A slow lumbering ship with tons of armour so
it can get within range with its big guns.  I've noticed there seems to be
(very) limmited fuel available for these ships.  Because of this Sword
World naval stratagy would prolly rely heavily on the use of tankers and
gas giants.  Primary mission in an invasion force would prolly be to
secure the gas giant(s) first. A strike mission would be to fire the
engines for a short burst, coast to the target, blow the heck out of said
target, change course, and get back to base before whats left blows you to
heck.  This fits well with the Sword Worlder psyche. ;-)

I found something you might be interested in, a web translator not unlike
the alta vista "babel fish", but can translate Norwegian and Icelandic!
Pluging in you ship names I discovered the raterh amusing translations.
(Norwegian to English to Icelandic)

Slakter = butcher = sl/atrari
Streiftog = incursion = innr/as
Kjerre = cart = kerra

(/a means put an accent mark over the a)

Have fun with this, the URL is http://www.searchspot.com/translate.htm

\\  // Commander X
 \\//  CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K  Military & Civilan Starship Contractor
 //\\  High Energy Weapons Research
//  \\ http://www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtek.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 07:44:46 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: [OT]: The Crusade to Save _Crusade_ 

>Not to start a flame war, but does anyone actually _like_ Crusade?

I do. All the guys in my gaming group do. Even my mother likes it.

>I was so disenchanted that I forgot to see Crusade til last week. So
>I've seen 1, and it was very, um, Star Trek-ie to me.

I don't think you can fairly evaluate a series on one episode. I
remember the first time I tuned in to the X-Files, and happened to
catch the episode that most fans consider to be the worst episode
of the first season. It was a while before I went back to that series.

Comparisons to Star Trek are inevitable, given that they both take
place in outer space aboard a starship. This is just a new spin on
the Babylon 5 - Deep Space Nine debate, who was ripping off whom,
since they both took place on a space station...

Anyway, IMHO I think after only four episodes is a little premature 
to dismiss the series, especially if you haven't seen all four...



     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 07:48:28 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> 
>> Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)
>
>It's okay, but only if call all of us Bruce.  Otherwise, we won't be
>able to keep things straight.
>
>- --Glenn

Sounds good to me, Bruce.

- -- Bruce


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:34:00 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress...

Note also Flak jackets (or bulletproof vests) were not originally designed
to stop bullets, they were to provide some protection from splinters.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:33:58 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Equipment Failure

How many M1 tanks suffer turbine failures in peacetime, how many in combat
when the engine governor seems to get removed. No I don't know the answer,
its probable classified, but I best the rate isn't zero.

The same could be said for failure rates on F18 Avionics. Surface to Air
missiles etc.

The point is all equipment no matter how well put together has an inherant
failure rate, this is of course before said equipment takes any hits.

It is also true that gunners have been killed in gun turrets by the
concussion from explosions nearbye. (The turret remains intact, the crew
don't)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:33:56 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress

Actually battledress in TNE at least comesv in at TL10 and is heavy, gives
initiative and agility penalties and is almost overloaded just carrying its
armour. Decent Battledress comes in around TL12 and their are progressive
improvements to TL15.

There are both fleets and marine units in back areas, these were not always
at tech level 15. All the GDW editions of the rules stated that the Imperial
Navy aquired ships from TL11 to 15. Since it seems to have been agreed that
the Imperial Navy effectively runs the Imperial Marines do the marines in
the same areas receive the latest.

Note the Third Imperium has not been at tech level 15 for 1,000 years,
Cleons Imperium certainly wasn't. It seems to have started at an effective
TL12 and advanced from there.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 10:44:44 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Biodiversity over time

William F. Hostman writes:
"Check out Dawkins _The Selfish Gene_ for a slightly better 
model of evolution than darwins. His premise is that the gene 
is the unit of selection, not the organism or species. The 
organism is essentially, under the dawkinsonian model, a 
replication machine and protective coating for the genes 
combined. Which helps explain such phenomena as hives, single
breeding pair colonies, and the prevalence of harmful recessives 
as disorder vectors."

	I would recommend Richard Dawkins to anyone interested in 
	evolutionary biology (another good one on the same theme
	is "The Extended Phenotype"). Another author who writes
	capably for a general audience and who covers new ways of
	looking at evolution is Stephen J. Gould (e.g. "Wonderful
	Life"). Back to Dawkins, though: treating the gene as the 
	unit on which natural selection acts is an interesting
	exersize, and useful in understanding evolution. There are
	interesting phenomena which can only be understood in this
	light. In fairness to Darwin, however, this is not at all
	contrary to his theory, nor does it shed new light on the
	great majority of evolutionary problems that are being
	investigated by biologists today. Dawkins has writen some
	interesting and useful books, but he has not revolutionized
	biology.

<good stuff snipped>
"Also keep in mind that humans carry genes for gills, tails, 
and large ammounts of body fur... they just happen to be 
switched off in normal development. Longer development periods 
would allow such neutral genes to build up...."
<snipped>

	Just a note about "neutral genes"... There is a lot of 
	DNA in most organisms that, as far as we can tell, is 
	never 'transcribed' (translated and used by the organism).
	In some species, more than 90% of the DNA is 'noncoding.'
	Much of this noncoding DNA is made up of sequences that
	repeat, probably copied all over the genome by the 
	'selfish gene' process. These sequences are not thought to
	be subject to natural selection, as they do not seem to 
	have any effect on the organism's ability to survive and 
	reproduce. As a result, any mutations that occur tend to
	remain, and the sequences eventually become essentially
	random. Such random sequences are EXTREMELY unlikely to be
	in any sense useful.

	Excellent post, William, thanks.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:59:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

>At 05:57 PM 7/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Robert Prior wrote:
>>>
>>>>Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
>>>>Lyn-class Fighter
>>>>Streiftog-class Destroyer
>>>
>>>I see that someone has gotten themself a Norwegian dictionery.
>>>Cool to see those names :-)
>>
>>Only a pocket one, I'm afraid. The names really should be Icelandic, but I
>>figure this is better than nothing, and I'll save the Icelandic for when I
>>get better at designing GTL9 ships.
>
>What are they in English, and I'll check my resources.

slakter  = butcher
lyn = lightning
streiftog = raid (I wanted raider, but it's a pocket dictionary)

I'm not wedded to any of these names. It's just that Vilani didn't seem
appropriate :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

>As an example, there has been a discussion on Pyramid about the appropriate
>levels of armor for warships.  The consensus is that armor protection
>should be deliberately constrained to avoid creating unstoppable
>juggernauts.  The ability to exclude median damage from bay weapons at half
>damage range was considered sufficient, with turrets having much less
>armor.  This last was adopted specifically to replicate the High Guard
>mechanic of having turrets vulnerable even in heavily armored designs.
>
>Tom Schoene

Hm, but did we ever settle on a handwave for that, other than 'game balance'?

I suspect that we could downgrade battledress just by deciding that, in the
Traveller universe, bonded superdense (ie. 'expensive metal' in GT terms)
is the best armour there is. This would make an acceptable reason for the
'flaws' in BD protection.

What's our handwave for lower turret armour?  Personally, I like the idea
of a maximum mass, with heavier turrets requiring more motors and suffering
'to hit' penalties, but I'm not good enough with VE2 to muck that up on my
own.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:59:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sword world ships

>Great work on the Sword World ships.  I was wondering how effective a ship
>built with GTL9 would work.
>Pretty much as I'd though.  A slow lumbering ship with tons of armour so
>it can get within range with its big guns.  I've noticed there seems to be
>(very) limmited fuel available for these ships.  Because of this Sword
>World naval stratagy would prolly rely heavily on the use of tankers and
>gas giants.  Primary mission in an invasion force would prolly be to
>secure the gas giant(s) first. A strike mission would be to fire the
>engines for a short burst, coast to the target, blow the heck out of said
>target, change course, and get back to base before whats left blows you to
>heck.  This fits well with the Sword Worlder psyche. ;-)

Yeah, here's another case of where GT diverges from CT canon. I still think
GTL9 needs to be split into several tech levels (say early, middle, late)
to match the Traveller TL resolution. My own personal suggestion for
minimal GT modification was to create a 'late GTL9' catagory, which had
much-improved thrusters (but still not quite as good as GTL10). I may end
up modifying GT Shipyard to do that anyway.


>I found something you might be interested in, a web translator not unlike
>the alta vista "babel fish", but can translate Norwegian and Icelandic!
>Pluging in you ship names I discovered the raterh amusing translations.
>(Norwegian to English to Icelandic)
>
>Slakter = butcher = sl/atrari
>Streiftog = incursion = innr/as
>Kjerre = cart = kerra
>
>(/a means put an accent mark over the a)
>
>Have fun with this, the URL is http://www.searchspot.com/translate.htm
>

Thanks a lot. I'll check it out.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #832
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 833



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

weapons design philospohy
RE: Dirigible Combat
Re: Battledress [long]
RE: Dirigible Combat
Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: TML Archives
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Harrier was Re: Batledress, Hoorah! 
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re:  TML Archives
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Battledress...
battledress
Droyne & The Ancients

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:40:08 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: weapons design philospohy

Battledress with a 10% failure rate against advanced fusion weapons would be
unacceptable? I have to disagree there.

The way I see it, BD is about enhancing infantry and making them capable of
carrying impressive weapons. Not about making them into tanks. If I built a
tank that could be killed 10% of the time by an infantryman's weapon, or
even the squad support weapon, I'd be working for the French government
(Grin, duck). But an infantry battlesuit that's immune to just about all
small arms, artillery fragments (even in the C57 still probably the biggest
casualty source) and most support weapons, while maintaining and even
enhancing infantry mobility... that works for me.

While building a battlesuit that allows heroes to stand up to fusion guns
while toppling skyscrapers on one another might be fun, I just don't see it.
You might build a specialist assault suit with heavier armour, I suppose,
but what infantryman, in what era, is going to be trained to just stand
there in the open and blaze away? I believe that BD should be invincible
against standard infantry weapons like assault rifles and even ACRs. Against
more powerful weapons, the infantryman's best defence is still to use
stealth, suppressing fire, and ground cover - infantry tactics won't change
that much.

You want to be immune to battledress carried fusion guns? Ride a Trepida. Of
course, a Trepida can't do a lot of the things infantry can. But that's the
tradeoff.
Just thoughts

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 05:49:26 -0700
From: "moran" <silente@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Dirigible Combat

> I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
> campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves
> something to
> be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
> The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
> help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would be
> great.
>
> They look so fragile and such easy targets, but many of them had
> to be tough
> enough to do ocean crossings, and in those days they had smoking
> sections -
> even on the hydrogen filled ones. Shiver.
>
> I imagine that a helium airship could probably take quite a few
> holes before
> getting into serious trouble, unless some HE damaged the frame. I
> wonder if
> hydrogen would detonate from a small blast or if the outgassing would
> smother the explosion in some cases.
A little info from the designers' notes to March to Victory, first game of
the Great War series produced by GR/D (the guys who obtained the rights to
Europa from GDW and for whom I happen to be webmaster :) ):

"Although their [zeppelins] hydrogen gas mad them extremely vulnerable to
fire, it was surprisingly hard to set one on fire, even when incendiary
bullets were used (unless the incendiary hit a metal support strut, they
often passed completely through the balloon envelope without setting off a
spark)."

In MT, I assume that the forces involved are high tech?  If so, then I
imagine nearby explosions would be a problem, as would fire from laser,
plasma, and fusion weapons.  The danger caused by nearby explosions of AA
fire could perhaps be reduced with modern fire-resistant materials used for
the gas bladder (is that the correct term?).  If the forces are not high
tech, but are rather at the tech level where zeppelins represent
state-of-the-art, there might be other considerations for you to keep in
mind.  For one thing, Zeppelins were resistant to AA fire in part because
they tended to fly higher than the AA of the time fired.  Additionally,
while they were hard to shoot down, they were poor defensive platforms, with
huge blind spots for their defensive guns v. attacking fighters.  And of
course, don't forget that zeppelins often were blown off course.

Jason
silente@gte.net
webmaster@grdgames.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:16:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

At 06:58 AM 7/8/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 21:05:52
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>>Subject: Re: Battledress
>>
>>There is a very simple solution.  Excuse me for yelling.
>>
>>DON'T RUN AN IMPERIAL MARINE CAMPAIGN!!	
>
>That is ridiculous and insulting, from someone who wants to write a
>playable, viable and marketable supplement. All of the material you present
>must support balanced, interesting campaigns, or you are wasting people's
>time and money. Sure, every person who reads it will find something not to
>like. When you receive this much opposition, though, and your only recourse
>seems to be "because that's the way I like it", doesn't that tell you
>something?

The Imperial Marines will take up about a third of the book as I now have
it laid out.

The rest of the book will detail the army, with an emphasis on
non-traditional campaigns like playing engineers or medical staff.

One more time, if you don't like the way Battledress is presented in GURPS,
you are under no obligation to use it in any way, shape or form.  You could
easily run a M*A*S*H game where there was very little gunfire at all.

Now, about playability.

Everybody remember "Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium"?  Better
known as "Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium"?  Those designs are
broken.  Badly.  Many of the TNE designs were awful.  Just about anytime
there has been a published design for Traveller, somebody on this list has
said "I can do better than that."

I guarantee that if _Ground Forces_ gets published with a sub-par set of
armor in it, within two weeks someone on this very list will bitch about
how it's too weak.  And then post a corrected version.  I want to avoid
that by building the best possible suit for inclusion.

It's not going to be CT battledress.  I am *very* familiar with the source
material, as I've been playing this game since 1977 and have an almost
complete collection of CT materials.  However, I have to write both for the
setting, and the game system.  If you think Traveller gearheads are bad,
you haven't seen anything until you've seen GURPS grognards rip apart a
design.

The standard weapon of the Imperial Marines is the FGMP-12.  The armor has
to provide adequate defences against that class of weapon or it's useless.
The average damage of the FGMP-12 is 560 points, so the armor needs to be
in 600-800 range to be even considered.  There was a design posted last
night that achieved this level using thermal superconducting armor.  I'm
giving that set a close look.


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:41:19 PDT
From: Michael Bitrick <mbitrick@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Dirigible Combat

>From: "moran" <silente@gte.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
>Subject: RE: Dirigible Combat
>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 05:49:26 -0700
>
> > I'm looking for a good system of combat for dirigibles. I'm running a MT
> > campaign and I have COACC available, but the air combat leaves
> > something to
> > be desired, IMHO (especially for airships).
> > The TNE rules look a bit better for this kind of thing but if anyone can
> > help out with info or point me to a site that may have this, that would 
>be
> > great.
> >
> > They look so fragile and such easy targets, but many of them had
> > to be tough
> > enough to do ocean crossings, and in those days they had smoking
> > sections -
> > even on the hydrogen filled ones. Shiver.
> >
> > I imagine that a helium airship could probably take quite a few
> > holes before
> > getting into serious trouble, unless some HE damaged the frame. I
> > wonder if
> > hydrogen would detonate from a small blast or if the outgassing would
> > smother the explosion in some cases.

A description of airships (Dirigibles) and how to incorporate them into a CT 
campaign was presented in a Ships Locker article on page 6 of JTAS #2.  This 
might be a good place to start as far as a physical description of 
dirigibles in your MT campaign.

As far as combat, Airlords of the Ozarks presented a combat system for 
airships (including ultralights), but I found it somewhat clumsy to use.  A 
better system is actually available in GDW's Space:1889 game, as most ships 
were based on a helium/hydrogen lift design.  Extensive rules for detailed 
airship combat are available there.

Finally, the effect of atmosphere would have a strong influence on combat.  
In thin atmospheres, the actual amount of "lift" provided by helium or 
hydrogen would be far less than that obtained in a standard or dense 
atmosphere.  This would allow those pesky natives with the low tech weapons 
to actually cause significant damage to the crew compartment, or the bladder 
itself.

Mike B


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:51:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Slakter-class Assault Cruiser (GTL9)

At 10:59 AM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>slakter  = butcher
>lyn = lightning
>streiftog = raid (I wanted raider, but it's a pocket dictionary)

slatrari
elding
arasfor (this is _raider_)
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:19:46 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>

> 
> The Imperial Marines will take up about a third of the book as I now have
> it laid out.
> 
> The rest of the book will detail the army, with an emphasis on
> non-traditional campaigns like playing engineers or medical staff.
> 
> One more time, if you don't like the way Battledress is presented in
GURPS,
> you are under no obligation to use it in any way, shape or form.  You
could
> easily run a M*A*S*H game where there was very little gunfire at all.

But if I do want to play Marines, it will have to be a very different
version from the past iterations of Traveller, it seems. Sorry, I won't buy
this. (Seriously, I won't.  If it's set up that way, I will not lay down my
money for it.) I can just barely accept one or two unplayable pages as in
StarMercs, but not a whole third of the book.
 
> I guarantee that if _Ground Forces_ gets published with a sub-par set of
> armor in it, within two weeks someone on this very list will bitch about
> how it's too weak.  And then post a corrected version.  I want to avoid
> that by building the best possible suit for inclusion.

I guarantee that they will get shouted down by the same people who slammed
Commando armor as too heavy.  You cannot please everyone, so you have to
decide who to piss off.  Better it be the gearheads, since they'll never be
happy anyway and will at least get some pleasure out of deigning a better
suit.  The non-gearheads will throw up their hands in disgust and say "I
can't design anything more playable because I don't even own Vehicles and
don't want to."  Does GURPS really want to alienate this sector of the
market any more than it already has?

> It's not going to be CT battledress.  I am *very* familiar with the
source
> material, as I've been playing this game since 1977 and have an almost
> complete collection of CT materials.  However, I have to write both for
the
> setting, and the game system.  If you think Traveller gearheads are bad,
> you haven't seen anything until you've seen GURPS grognards rip apart a
> design.

The book should not be written primarily for grognards and gearheads.  It
should be written for the average player (not the ones who read Pyramid and
TML).  They want fun, not a military simulation.  To the extent that GT
becomes a simulation rather than an adventure game, it is a bad product,
and I'll fight it.  I don't think I'll be alone.  If the gearheads decide
they can do better, let them.  But not in the official universe. 
Playability should overrule everything else in published material.  If you
can't write the book with this in mind, you shouldn't write it at all.  If
you can't write it with respect to the source material, you shouldn't write
it.

Just to give some perspective, I've done several designs for GT: Imperial
Navy. Those designs are not the absolute best that could be extracted from
the rules system by bending it unmercifully.  They are the most interesting
that I could make using the rules as a guide, and conforming to the
descriptions in CT or MT.  Where I could build a more capable ship without
violating the spirit of the design, I did, but I also designed ships that
were weaker than they absolutely had to be.
 
> The standard weapon of the Imperial Marines is the FGMP-12.  The armor has
> to provide adequate defences against that class of weapon or it's useless.

Why?  Does modern body armor provide adequate protection against a 5.56mm
rifle round?  No.  Name an era in history when the standard individual
armor was sufficient to exclude 90% of shots from the standard individual
weapons of the day (since this seems to be your standard for "adequate"). 
I can't think of one.

Since the Zhodani are the most typical threat force in most Trav games, I'd
use them as my benchmark.  I'd assume that the FGMP-11 (the standard Zho
squad heavy weapon) has been engineered to reliably defeat existing
Imperial Marine battledress (i.e. at least 50% of the time) and backdesign
the armor from that assumption. That gives you a protection level of around
DR500 including superconducting layer, which is close to the existing GT
TL11 battledress.  Even this confers too much protection against the
standard Zho individual weapon, the PGMP-10.  Assault dress, issued only to
a very few units, could be a bit more butch (say DR600) but that's the
absolute max.  

Just so you know: If you do write this book and include an overpowered
supersuit with bad play balance characteristics just because it's
technically feasible, I will be on the playtest complaining about it
loudly. If the book goes to print without playtesting the hardware, I will
be here on TML telling people not to buy it. Consider this fair warning.  

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:24:21 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

- ----------
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
> Date: Thursday, 08 July, 1999 10:59 AM
> 
> >As an example, there has been a discussion on Pyramid about the
appropriate
> >levels of armor for warships.  The consensus is that armor protection
> >should be deliberately constrained to avoid creating unstoppable
> >juggernauts.  The ability to exclude median damage from bay weapons at
half
> >damage range was considered sufficient, with turrets having much less
> >armor.  This last was adopted specifically to replicate the High Guard
> >mechanic of having turrets vulnerable even in heavily armored designs.
> >
> >Tom Schoene
> 
> Hm, but did we ever settle on a handwave for that, other than 'game
balance'?

I forget, because I wasn't in a position to contribute, just read the
results.  I'd be more than happy to settle on some sort of manufacturing
technology limitations (can't make hyperdense armor plate thicker than x
cm, for example)  This worked for real-world battleships in the 20th
century.

> I suspect that we could downgrade battledress just by deciding that, in
the
> Traveller universe, bonded superdense (ie. 'expensive metal' in GT terms)
> is the best armour there is. This would make an acceptable reason for the
> 'flaws' in BD protection.

Too late for that, because GT main book battle dress uses advanced laminate
armor.  However, you could rule that TL10-12 advanced laminate and
composite are only available with DR x (maybe 300 or TL*3) because of
manufacturing difficulties or some such.  This would explain why warships
don't often use these armors, even though it might be worthwhile. I could
save a lot of weight by switching to composite in a heavy cruiser and the
cost isn't that bad, but I don't think the result makes much sense or much
fun, so I don't do it.
 
> What's our handwave for lower turret armour?  
> Personally, I like the idea
> of a maximum mass, with heavier turrets requiring more motors and
suffering
> 'to hit' penalties, but I'm not good enough with VE2 to muck that up on
my
> own.

That works pretty well. Imperial Bureaucracy was another good option. 
Personally, I don't care much. "Because it's more fun that way" as usually
good enough for CT, why shouldn't it work for GT too? 
 
As for Ve2, GT ship design uses only a subset of Ve2 rules anyway. (no
forcefields, hyperdrives, or cyberlinks, for example)  I don't see the need
to make an appeal to Ve2 for every design decision. 


Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:42:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

Thomas Schoene writes:
> Too late for that, because GT main book battle dress uses advanced laminate
> armor.  However, you could rule that TL10-12 advanced laminate and
> composite are only available with DR x (maybe 300 or TL*3) because of
> manufacturing difficulties or some such.  This would explain why warships
> don't often use these armors, even though it might be worthwhile. I could
> save a lot of weight by switching to composite in a heavy cruiser and the
> cost isn't that bad, but I don't think the result makes much sense or much
> fun, so I don't do it.

Its pretty clear that the advanced armors were mostly intended for battlesuits
and the like.  One reasonable limit is maximum armor is a flat cost/sf -- say,
$2000/sf (caps TL 12 advance laminate at DR 1,333, TL 12 advanced metal at DR
4,000, TL 12 expensive metal at DR 8,333, TL 12 standard metal at DR 16,666, TL
12 cheap metal at DR 40,000).  If you want to be a bit more flexible, halve
this limit, and then you can exceed it -- but multiply armor costs by the ratio
by which you exceed that limit.
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:05:53 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML Archives

>The volume.issue of the digests in question are as follows:
>
>- ---
>1994.1 - missing (suspect that it never existed)
>
>1996.680? - there was about half-a-week (19960304..19960308) during which 
>I received no digests as we transitioned to the new list server.  The 
>last message I got from the old server was in digest 679 and was dated 
>Sat, 4 May 1996 15:49:09 -0500 (CDT).  Did any digests beyond 679 emanate 
>from the old server?
>
>1996.60..69 - missing (from the new server)
>1997.843 - contents but no body (truncated)
>1997.2125..2127 - missing
>1997.2140..2141 - missing
>1998.173 - missing
>1998.202 - missing
>- ---
>
>If anybody has a copy of any of the above digests, I'd really appreciate 
>you forwarding them on.

I probably have all the bits you're missing, plus a good chunk of 1993 and 
possibly '92. I look tonight...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:45:57 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

- ----------
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> 
> Thomas Schoene writes:
> > Too late for that, because GT main book battle dress uses advanced
laminate
> > armor.  
> Its pretty clear that the advanced armors were mostly intended for
battlesuits
> and the like.  

I don't see that.  The obvious application of laminate is in armored
vehicles to model things like Chobbham.

One reasonable limit is maximum armor is a flat cost/sf -- say,
> $2000/sf (caps TL 12 advance laminate at DR 1,333, TL 12 advanced metal
at DR
> 4,000, TL 12 expensive metal at DR 8,333, TL 12 standard metal at DR
16,666, TL
> 12 cheap metal at DR 40,000)

That's an odd result: cheap armors can provide more total protection than
expensive ones.  I don't think I like it much.  It's easier to just put a
cap on DR for certain armor types, as was done with thermal superconductor
coatings.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

Thomas Schoene writes:
> 
> I don't see that.  The obvious application of laminate is in armored
> vehicles to model things like Chobbham.

I said 'advanced', not 'laminate'.  Chobham is standard or expensive laminate armor, _not_ advanced laminate armor.
> 
> One reasonable limit is maximum armor is a flat cost/sf -- say,
> > $2000/sf (caps TL 12 advance laminate at DR 1,333, TL 12 advanced metal
> at DR
> > 4,000, TL 12 expensive metal at DR 8,333, TL 12 standard metal at DR
> 16,666, TL
> > 12 cheap metal at DR 40,000)
> 
> That's an odd result: cheap armors can provide more total protection than
> expensive ones.  I don't think I like it much.  It's easier to just put a
> cap on DR for certain armor types, as was done with thermal superconductor
> coatings.

No, it isn't an odd result.  If you look at real life armored vehicles, the
bigger it is, the lower the grade of armor in it.  A battleship has nowhere
near the armor quality of a tank, and high-grade body armor inserts are better
than the armor used in a tank.  The fact is, maintaining consistent high
quality is more difficult (in a nonlinear manner) the larger an object
is.  Creating an unflawed 20 carat gem is not twice as hard as creating
an unflawed 10 carat gem.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:12:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Harrier was Re: Batledress, Hoorah! 

"Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net> writes:

>> I hadn't heard about differing training loss rates between RAF (or RM?)
>> and USMC.

RN (Fleet Air Arm) not RM

And the RAF uses them,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:24:53 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:59:44 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
>
>Hm, but did we ever settle on a handwave for [deliberately restricting the
>amount of armor on naval vessels], other than 'game balance'?

I'm not sure what (or whether) the authors of GT: Imperial Navy will say in
the end, but I believe we left it pretty much as described in my previous
post: the level of armor in the guidelines is that determined by the
"Imperial Naval Design Board" or whatever to be "good enough". Anything
heavier is "too expensive" or "not cost effective", and won't be
considered; anything lighter is "inadequate for this class". [For those who
weren't party to this discussion, the ranges are broad and adjusted for TL.]

Note that this is easier to do in naval architecture than in vehicle
design, because there are several levels of protection available. One can
have "light" cruisers with minimal armor for the class and "heavy" cruisers
that are battleships in all but name.

>I suspect that we could downgrade battledress just by deciding that, in the
>Traveller universe, bonded superdense (ie. 'expensive metal' in GT terms)
>is the best armour there is. This would make an acceptable reason for the
>'flaws' in BD protection.

My notes are packed for moving right now, but I think we've done away with
laminate or ablative armor for starships as well. Advanced metal armor is
still kosher (so far), to leave some room for improvement over standard
(i.e., 'expensive metal') hull armor.

>What's our handwave for lower turret armour?  Personally, I like the idea
>of a maximum mass, with heavier turrets requiring more motors and suffering
>'to hit' penalties, but I'm not good enough with VE2 to muck that up on my
>own.

GURPS Vehicles doesn't explicitly address drive motors as a fuction of
turret mass. I believe this is mostly to avoid another interative design
step, but it is also a product of the zero-volume armor that VE2 uses.
Turrets aren't rated for traverse speed anyway, so there would be no game
effect. 

If pressed, I will probably use this handwave -- if nothing else, it
prevents abuse of simplifications in the design system. As it stands,
turrets with the maximum amount of armor allowed in the guidelines can have
up to 20 stons of armor (500 lb/sf), which should be plenty.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:26:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

Queston:  Anyone know how to determine the thickness of armor using VE2?  All 
I can find are the mass and DR.  I think its entirely possible that a DR 800 
suit of armor would be so thick as to be almost to make fit human joints and 
range of motion.  But then I'm just guessing.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:22:04 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  TML Archives

> From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolisnet.au>
> Subject: TML Archives
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> I was bored around 0200 this morning, so I decided to clean up some of my 
> mailboxes.  I got carried away...  Around 17 hours later I have a bit 
> over 157 MB of uncompressed TML Digests, neatly sorted by volume and 
> issue, on my Mac's hard disk.
> 
> 1994 - 148 digests - 2.7 MB
> 1995 - 383 digests - 7.6 MB
> 1996 - 971 digests - 27.7 MB
> 1997 - 1,419 digests - 47.1 MB
> 1998 - 1,416 digests - 45.6 MB
> 1999 - 830 digests - 26.2 MB (so far)

Henry, you may be one sick puppy who really needs to get a life.  On the
other hand, you are proposing a potentially very useful service. 
Certain issues do arise repeatedly on the list, and a thread archive
could help us avoid repeating ourselves to excess.  I look forward to
your results.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:34:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com writes:
> 
> Queston:  Anyone know how to determine the thickness of armor using VE2? 
> All  I can find are the mass and DR.  I think its entirely possible that a
> DR 800  suit of armor would be so thick as to be almost to make fit human
> joints and  range of motion.  But then I'm just guessing.

It depends on the density of your material.  In general, 1 inch is 5 lb/sf
* density.  DR 800 advanced TL 12 laminate is 12 lb/sf, so assuming density
15 (superdense, even though that's not all that dense) 1 inch is 75 lb/sf,
and DR 800 is 0.16 inches (0.4 cm).  Much of the reason VE2 ignores armor
volume is that it is generally irrelevant.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:38:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

Christopher Thrash writes:
> 
> My notes are packed for moving right now, but I think we've done away with
> laminate or ablative armor for starships as well. Advanced metal armor is
> still kosher (so far), to leave some room for improvement over standard
> (i.e., 'expensive metal') hull armor.

Fortunately, there's almost _no_ references to ablative armor in
already-published material, so doing away with it can be done with minimal
violence to published material.  By and large laminate armor is too expensive
for a viable spacecraft in any case -- though 'composite' armor is tempting,
since at the same armor protection level it is actually _cheaper_ than metal.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:53:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
>> Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 3:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: Battledress...

>I don't have any marines...?


I must have imagined your posts to the lists where your view of the marines
differed from Doug's views and various bits of source material. I also must
have imagined the post in which you spoke for the "silent majority" of CT
players (who had not weighed in on either side of the discussion) who would
rather see Imperial marines as they existed in YTU.

My apologies then.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 15:03:22 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: battledress

I'm more in the Doug "Bruce" Berry Camp on this.  The IM, along with the 
IN, is the final word in Imperial authority.  If the situation requires a 
detailed solution than "nuke 'em from orbit," then you send in the Marines.
Shipboard Marines who have to do combat drops have (Traveller) TL 15 Battle 
Dress.

For the rest of this post, Tech Levels are in Traveller, not GURPs scale.

Subsector or Planetary Naval Infantry probably have  TL 12 Combat Armor 
sealed for space use.

Imperial Army units, depending on their function and TL they are outfitted 
out have equipment ranging from:
- - BDU (flack jacket optional)
- - Combat Environment Suits
- - Combat Armor (TL of introduction to 15)
- - Battle Dress (TL of introduction to 15)
- - Formal Mess Uniforms

Planetary units would range from homespun/leather to TL 12-14 Battledress 
(captured Zho surplus in the Marches, ya know).


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:08:19 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: Droyne & The Ancients

Hi,

In both T4 & CT it seems that the Imperium has learned that the Droyne are
the descendants of the Ancients and at least the general gist of the story
of Grandfather.  I believe in the CT Droyne expansion there are some library
data style references.

I was wondering when did Imperial researchers learn this?
Is this generally accepted in the Imperium or only regarded as a theory?
Would this be in standard library data available to the general public or
more closely guarded?

In most of my games people research data on the Ancients isn't widely
disseminated.
I would think this being common knowledge would cause most Droyne homeworlds
to be inundated with treasure hunters and the like.

G.D.D.
======
Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.  --Marie Curie

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #833
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 834



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Battledress [long]
Re:  Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Versions
Re: Droyne &amp; The Ancients
Re: Versions
Re: Droyne &amp; The Ancients
Re: Battledress...
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
re: Battledress
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Armour Limits
Re: TML Archives
Re: Equipment Failure
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Armour limits
RE: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Armour Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:18:12 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> In both T4 & CT it seems that the Imperium has learned that the Droyne are
> the descendants of the Ancients and at least the general gist of the story
> of Grandfather.  I believe in the CT Droyne expansion there are some library
> data style references.
> 
> I was wondering when did Imperial researchers learn this?
> Is this generally accepted in the Imperium or only regarded as a theory?
> Would this be in standard library data available to the general public or
> more closely guarded?
> 
> In most of my games people research data on the Ancients isn't widely
> disseminated.
> I would think this being common knowledge would cause most Droyne homeworlds
> to be inundated with treasure hunters and the like.

I can't say for CT other than if you look at most of the Droyne 
worlds, they are interdicted.  This would usually stop most 
exploitation.

However, in M0 (T4), the information is being suppressed.  Emperor 
Cleon I wants the Ancients to be Human, hence the Archon Theory.  
Of course, savvy PCs will quickly discover the cover up once they 
have found an Archon (Ancient) site; the seats are all wrong for 
humans but just perfect for Droyne.  Going public with the 
information is certainly going to bring unwanted attention and 
possibly a blown reputation if they persist in their "heretical 
preachings."  

IMTU, the term "Ancients" hasn't been invented. The characters use 
the term "Archons" and get a tongue lashing if they use Ancients.  
NPCs all of a sudden start listening and badgering the PCs about 
this new race called the Ancients, etc.  Makes things difficult for 
them.  Thus, they now stick to Archon ...


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:45:35 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

>Queston:  Anyone know how to determine the thickness of armor using VE2?  All
>I can find are the mass and DR.  I think its entirely possible that a DR 800
>suit of armor would be so thick as to be almost to make fit human joints and
>range of motion.  But then I'm just guessing.


I figure it thus (and probably incorrectly):

1 inch hard steel = DR 70.
800 DR = 11.429 inches hard steel.
11.429 inches x armor modifier = actual thickness of 800 DR of material.

But then I'm barely legal as a gearhead.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:43:34 PDT
From: Michael Bitrick <mbitrick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

Some random thoughts on the battledress issue:

First, let me preface this by saying I have not read, nor do I own GT, so I 
cannot intelligently comment on any design aspects of GT BD.  What I can do 
is relate my RPG experiences and real life military experience and how they 
relate to BD issues.

First, Doug is right.  If you don't like his idea for the GT BD, then don't 
use it.  An early issue of JTAS (I will have to look up the reference and 
post it, as I do not have my Traveller library in front of me right now), 
has an entire article on battledress and it's use by Imperial troops.  This 
adaptation has served my campaign quite well for 20 years now, and should 
work for most CT and MT campaigns.

As far as IM's never being seen without BD?  I would think that the use of 
BD is probably mission dependent.  Sure, if I was going into combat, I would 
want the best suit money could buy (or the lowest bidder in this case), and 
I would want my troops in it at all times, especially in a combat zone or 
other hostile environment.  Does the IM unit guarding the Emperor's private 
vineyard on a backwater agricultural world warrant BD?  Probably not.  Even 
in "hostile" environments, the IM unit doesn't always appear in BD.  An 
article in Travellers Digest by DGP (again I'll have to post the reference 
later), describes the occupation forces of Terra, including the IM unit 
stationed there.  In order to establish a more friendly approach to the 
native population, the troops there are rarely seen in BD. Due to cost, it 
is probably more likely that only elite units (Force Recon comes to mind) 
and assault troops would be BD equipped.

The next point I would like to address is the myth of "unstoppable" BD.  
There is no such thing, all weapon or defense systems can be overcome by 
something.  Sure, six PC's in BD are probably more than a match for 300 TL6 
equipped regular army troops. Tech level difference is a powerful tool, and 
those that have the tech will use it. Evidence can be seen in the US 
government's use of the Gatling gun on Native Americans, or the British Army 
use of the Maxim machinegun in Africa. The use of superior technology can 
easily result in the slaughter of lesser equipped troops. Suppose those 
natives had additional support weapons though.  Being an ex-groundpounder 
myself, when faced with overwhelming firepower there are basically four 
things to do:

1) Call in an airstrike
2) Call in the Field Artillery
3) Run like Hell
4) All of the above

(Doug can probably back me up on this, although I don't think it is in any 
field manual.)

Support weapons can generally make a huge difference on whether your 
infantry unit survives, and whether or not the enemy takes casualties.

Suppose we take those same six PC's and pit them against a fireteam 
performing a general security sweep.  The fireteam consists of six 
individuals armed and armored to the same standards as the PC's.  Would each 
sides BD be effective?  Probably.  Would each sides weapons be just as 
effective? Probably.  Would the outcome be a bloody standoff with both sides 
taking casualties? No.  The difference would be in the training, morale, 
tactics, leadership, and about a thousand other factors that affect combat. 
Better training equals less of a chance of getting shot.

What all this boils down to is this:  At lower tech levels, a force with 
numerical superiority can probably take down a trooper in BD with an 
appropriate amount of heavy weapons support.  At higher levels, BD can be 
taken out by troops with better training and tactics.

Finally, is all BD psionically shielded?  A psionic character could easily 
wreak havoc on an unshielded character in BD.

Mike B


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:03:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Droyne & The Ancients

> From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>

> In both T4 & CT it seems that the Imperium has learned that the Droyne are
> the descendants of the Ancients and at least the general gist of the story
> of Grandfather.  I believe in the CT Droyne expansion there are some
> library data style references.
> I was wondering when did Imperial researchers learn this?
> Is this generally accepted in the Imperium or only regarded as a theory?
> Would this be in standard library data available to the general public or
> more closely guarded?

The connection between the Droyne and the Ancients is made in the early
1100s (i.e., CT era).  (See Adenture 3?: Twilight's Peak; and Adventure
4?:  Secret of the Ancients ("?" because I'm too lazy to look up which
Adventures they are).)  It becomes disseminated through the Imperium by
the MT era.  

T4 was set 1100 years earlier (Milieu: 0).  Humaniti has not yet learned
that the Droyne are actually one race scattered across many star
systems.  It takes some analysis of the census to realize that they are
all the same species.  The truth about the chirpers doesn't become known
until the 1100s era adventures, either, as I recall.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:10:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Bont wrote:
> 
> > In both T4 & CT it seems that the Imperium has learned that the Droyne are
> > the descendants of the Ancients and at least the general gist of the story
> > of Grandfather.  I believe in the CT Droyne expansion there are some library
> > data style references.
> >
> > I was wondering when did Imperial researchers learn this?
> > Is this generally accepted in the Imperium or only regarded as a theory?
> > Would this be in standard library data available to the general public or
> > more closely guarded?

From the MT Imperial Encyclopedia, Referee's section on the ancients:

"...[Grandfather explained] Who in the Imperium today [1116] knoew these
facts? No one knows them all, but there are a few scattered sophontologists
who have come to the conclusion that the Droyne are the modern-day descendents
of the Ancients, and they are somehow not as intelligent as the earlier race."
(p. 48)

There are some people who are coming to that conclusion, and unless your PC's
are run through the 'Secrets of the Ancients' adventure, that's all _anyone_
knows. Note, the section says that equating the Drtoyne with the Ancients is
just starting to become known.

> > In most of my games people research data on the Ancients isn't widely
> > disseminated.
> > I would think this being common knowledge would cause most Droyne homeworlds
> > to be inundated with treasure hunters and the like.

Hmmmm...except for those pesky Droyne Warriors in BD....

> However, in M0 (T4), the information is being suppressed.  Emperor
> Cleon I wants the Ancients to be Human, hence the Archon Theory.
> Of course, savvy PCs will quickly discover the cover up once they
> have found an Archon (Ancient) site; the seats are all wrong for
> humans but just perfect for Droyne.  Going public with the
> information is certainly going to bring unwanted attention and
> possibly a blown reputation if they persist in their "heretical
> preachings."

Huh? Where is this information?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:13:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Versions

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> 
> > Mind if I call you Bruce, just to keep things straight? :-)
> 
> It's okay, but only if call all of us Bruce.  Otherwise, we won't be
> able to keep things straight.

Well, that's right , Bruce. 

Noooo Pooftahs!

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:21:02 PDT
From: "Michael Bitrick" <mbitrick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne &amp; The Ancients

>The connection between the Droyne and the Ancients is made in the early
>1100s (i.e., CT era).  (See Adenture 3?: Twilight's Peak; and Adventure
>4?:  Secret of the Ancients ("?" because I'm too lazy to look up which
>Adventures they are).)  It becomes disseminated through the Imperium by
>the MT era.
>
>T4 was set 1100 years earlier (Milieu: 0).  Humaniti has not yet learned
>that the Droyne are actually one race scattered across many star
>systems.  It takes some analysis of the census to realize that they are
>all the same species.  The truth about the chirpers doesn't become known
>until the 1100s era adventures, either, as I recall.
>
>--Glenn
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:27:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Versions

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> They are porting the whole thing, but I don't think it's out yet.
> Probably, will come out about the time Corel releases their Linux
> distribution this fall.  I'm looking for big fanfair when that
> happens.

Too bad they're porting just the _Intel_ linux version...:-( It would be
really sweet (suite ;-) to be able to pull in a PPC linux version when I get
Mac OSX...prolly be cheaper than their Mac versions of the software!

> 
> BTW, here's an aside to my players...  I've been wondering gang,
> what version of Traveller am *I* running in the Akus Moby game?
> Yeah, I know "None of the above" sums it up, but what version does
> it feel most like?

You know, Eris, it doesn't feel like _any_ version, per se. The background's
clearly Traveller; but we're never exposed to the mechanics of the game, and
absent that, since it's not in the OTU, it feels mostly like this alternate
universe I visit several times a week. It's fun, you tell me what happens in
front of me, and I tell you (and the other players) what my character does in
response. 

Traveller versions, if you are not using the official background, are more in
the roll playing than the role playing and so far (for me, at least) I haven't
touched a die or cracked a rulebook yet.

I'm not thinking 'This is Traveller', I'm thinking 'Crikey, we're here in a
new system three weeks and we've tangled with the secret police and the Navy,
and had to help them shoot up our own ship! How in the heck are we going to
pay for the damage, how much damage was done, and where in the heck did I put
the cold beersi I just had?'

Yah know, you could tell me we're playing a Warhammer 40k influenced melding
of White Wolf and AD&D rules and I'd not notice the diff....we're going to
space in starships with jump drive that lasts a week, and that's all it needs
to be Traveller.

From a gearhead standpoint, I'd have to say it's mostly TNE, actually, it's
mostly FFS, rather.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:50:39 PDT
From: "Michael Bitrick" <mbitrick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne &amp; The Ancients

>The connection between the Droyne and the Ancients is made in the early
>1100s (i.e., CT era).  (See Adenture 3?: Twilight's Peak; and Adventure
>4?:  Secret of the Ancients ("?" because I'm too lazy to look up which
>Adventures they are).)  It becomes disseminated through the Imperium by
>the MT era.
>
>T4 was set 1100 years earlier (Milieu: 0).  Humaniti has not yet learned
>that the Droyne are actually one race scattered across many star
>systems.  It takes some analysis of the census to realize that they are
>all the same species.  The truth about the chirpers doesn't become known
>until the 1100s era adventures, either, as I recall.
>
>--Glenn
>
>
Let's try this again...shall we?  Sorry about sending blank message 
before...I'm mouse impaired

As Glenn points out, the 1100 adventures are pretty much the first 
indication that the Ancients and the Droyne are one in the same.  Actual 
discovery of the post-war Droyne occurred during the First Imperium by the 
Vilani (if you look at the map on the back cover of Traveller Alien Module 
5, you will notice that most Droyne settlements are in the Spinward Marches 
Sector and farther, an area the Vilani did not actively explore).  On page 7 
of Traveller Alien Module 5, GDW points out that the Vilani Imperium and the 
Rule of Man were both too busy with other concerns to consider the Droyne 
anything more than a minor race.

When the Imperium came to power, expansion into the Spinward Marches began 
in approximately 300, with the sector coming under Imperial control by mid 
700 (page 7, Traveller Alien Module 5).  Again, discovery of the Droyne was 
dismissed as contact with another minor race.  This changed when the Droyne 
discovery of jump drive was found to predate the Imperium and sparked a new 
wave of research.

Over the course of the next 400 years, the amount of research done by 
Imperial researchers, as well as the discovery of Twilight's Peak, and the 
site at Antiquity/Corridor would be enough to link the Droyne with the 
Ancients.

As Glenn stated, who knows these facts?  Using the MT reference from the 
Imperial Encyclopedia..."no one knows them all", implying that the 
Droyne-Ancient connection is not a well known fact.  This is also restated 
in Traveller Alien Module 5, page 44; "The secret of the Ancients is a 
historical puzzle.  The few facts available are not sufficient to support 
accurate theories, and the Ancients themselves left no history behind." 
Thus, implying once more, that even the wisest minds in the Imperium don't 
have all the facts necessary to make a 100% accurate guess that the Droyne 
and the Ancients are one in the same.

As far as treasure hunters on Droyne worlds...most (if not all) Droyne 
worlds in Imperial space are interdicted.  Arguing with an interdiction task 
force does not make you rich...nuff said

Mike "You can call me Bruce too" B




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:26:21 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>You say that GT Battledress is too tough, I ask (over and over again) if
>you'd trust a bullet proof vest that fails one time in ten.  Well?

If someone could prove to me that they made wearable body armour that
would stop a 5.56 NATO rifle round 90% of the time at standard
engagement ranges, not only would I buy the armour, I'd sell my soul to
the devil to get the license to market the stuff to the military.

Ditto a tank that survived 90% of shots from all aspects; a missile
countermeasure device for an aircraft that foxed 90% of all missiles
fired at it; and a torpedo decoy or hard-kill measure that was 90%
effective against all modern torpedoes.

In combat, armour is very much down the list...

1. Don't get detected.
2. If you must be detected, don't get localised.
3. If you must be localised, don't be shot at.
4. If you must be shot at, don't be hit.
5. If you must be hit, don't be damaged.
6. If you must be damaged, don't be destroyed.

As you can see, armour helps in cases (5) and (6).

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:30:26 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

Robert Prior wrote:

>What's our handwave for lower turret armour?  Personally, I like the idea
>of a maximum mass, with heavier turrets requiring more motors and suffering
>'to hit' penalties, but I'm not good enough with VE2 to muck that up on my
>own.

Because, for all ship's weapon systems save the meson gun, there is
necessarily a hole in the armour through which the weapon fires. This
makes the armour weaker in general; and also gives you the chance to hit
the unarmoured gap. 

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:15:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
In combat, armour is very much down the list...

1. Don't get detected.
2. If you must be detected, don't get localised.
3. If you must be localised, don't be shot at.
4. If you must be shot at, don't be hit.
5. If you must be hit, don't be damaged.
6. If you must be damaged, don't be destroyed.

As you can see, armour helps in cases (5) and (6).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The "Armour" Doug & others are talking about often includes sensors, 
ECM/ECCM, point defense, often integral flight capabilities.
The superior sensors and electronics will help with 1, 2 and 4, 
the point defense will help with 4, and the flight will help with
2 and perhaps 4 (higher mobility may help you prevent localization
and even hits, but may make you easier to detect).

The FGMP is to prevent 3, by burning a big hole in whatever is 
trying to shoot at you. 

They're talking about an integrated system here, not just the metal 
plating. Granted, the metal plating is nasty enough, even after
Doug's alignment of defense ratings with expected energy weapon
damager ratings.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:56:29 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

- ----------
> From: Michael Bitrick <mbitrick@hotmail.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Battledress [long]
> Date: Thursday, 08 July, 1999 3:43 PM
> 
> Some random thoughts on the battledress issue:
> 
> First, let me preface this by saying I have not read, nor do I own GT, so
I 
> cannot intelligently comment on any design aspects of GT BD.  What I can
do 
> is relate my RPG experiences and real life military experience and how
they 
> relate to BD issues.
 
> The next point I would like to address is the myth of "unstoppable" BD.  
> There is no such thing, all weapon or defense systems can be overcome by 
> something. 

This is where the main problem seems to arise: just what should be required
to defeat battledress.  CT established that BD is vulnerable to a fairly
wide range of  personal weapons.  GT is supposed to parallel CT as much as
practical. (This is the guidance being given to GT writers.)  Therefore
Doug's statement that his proposed Imperial Marine BD is not CT-style BD is
an immediate red flag.  His suggestion that Imperial Marine BD should be
90% immune to an FGMP-15 (-12 in GT) is a major change that runs contrary
to established cannon.  Now, GT need not follow CT slavishly (it's hard to
make worthwhile BD that is still vulnerable to GT's version of shaped
charge snub pistol rounds, for example) but it should not deliberately
discard CT canon altogether without a sound roleplaying rationales.  

Changes of this nature should only be made if they enhance the roleplaying
experience.  There's no clear indication that it would make the game more
fun to play.  In fact, the more powerful BD is, the more contortions a
referee must make to fit it into a conventional roleplaying setting. 
That's not a god thing.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:20:16 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 

> Fortunately, there's almost _no_ references to ablative armor in
already-published material, so doing away with it can be done with minimal
violence to published material.  By and large laminate armor is too expensive
for a viable spacecraft in any case -- though 'composite' armor is tempting,
since at the same armor protection level it is actually _cheaper_ than metal.


What about that "active" armor the U.S. Army was experimenting with? 
The stuff on tank hulls that was actually shape charges designed to
detonate against hostile fire?  To my understanding this would be really
stupid (unless I am missing something here).  Don't tanks typically use
infantry in a localized support role?  So if I wanted to kill a bunch of
U.S. soldiers, I'd aim at the tank's active armor and watch it wipe out
the troops.

If this question is stupid, then forgive me.  I live a sheltered life. 
:)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:21:57 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

How does one get a hold of all those older messages?  I think I started
the list in either '97 or '98.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:30:17 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Equipment Failure

Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> How many M1 tanks suffer turbine failures in peacetime, how many in combat
> when the engine governor seems to get removed. No I don't know the answer,
> its probable classified, but I best the rate isn't zero.
> 
> The same could be said for failure rates on F18 Avionics. Surface to Air
> missiles etc.
> 


Heh heh, removing the gear-box from our Abrahms, are we?  Doing a little
high-speed racing in a battle tank?  :)  Tell me, did they every clear
up the problem with the M1 with the filter system?  (I think that was
it).


As to the F18, I had 'heard' that their avionics required an overhaul
after every flight.  Is this true?
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

Jory Earl writes:
> What about that "active" armor the U.S. Army was experimenting with? 
> The stuff on tank hulls that was actually shape charges designed to
> detonate against hostile fire?  To my understanding this would be really
> stupid (unless I am missing something here).  Don't tanks typically use
> infantry in a localized support role?  So if I wanted to kill a bunch of
> U.S. soldiers, I'd aim at the tank's active armor and watch it wipe out
> the troops.

This is reactive armor, which is actually in use in a number of countries.  It
isn't a very big blast, and is fairly difficult to set off, and infantry are
unlikely to be within the dangerous blast zone (a couple of yards far as I
know).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:50:04 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
>
>jmaclean@ix.netcom.com writes:
>> 
>> Queston:  Anyone know how to determine the thickness of armor using VE2? 
>> All  I can find are the mass and DR.  I think its entirely possible that a
>> DR 800  suit of armor would be so thick as to be almost to make fit human
>> joints and  range of motion.  But then I'm just guessing.
>
>It depends on the density of your material.  In general, 1 inch is 5 lb/sf
* density.  DR 800 advanced TL 12 laminate is 12 lb/sf, so assuming density
15 (superdense, even though that's not all that dense) 1 inch is 75 lb/sf,
and DR 800 is 0.16 inches (0.4 cm).  Much of the reason VE2 ignores armor
volume is that it is generally irrelevant.

I think we have found the problem, people.

In FFS2, 0.4 cm of TL15 bonded superdense has an armour factor of about 16.

AF 16 will stop about 500 kJ of plasma bolt (but it gets messy from then on
in, due to the 40*sqrt(output) damage formula), or about 9 MJs of lasers.

CR Hensley (hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net or
http://home.att.net/~hensley.cr/Traveller/) has designed a 10mm ETC
machinegun at tech 10 that does damage 21. I think the original FS Heavy
Rifle had damage in this range as well.

In short, in FFS2, AF16 is pretty wimpy.

Now, in CT, battledress had problems under Striker as well - you could get
hurt by heavy machineguns, and cut in half by VFR Gauss Guns. Cluster
bomblets also gave you problems.

In conclusion, it seems armour has got a lot more effective under Gurps.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:51:09 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Droyne & The Ancients

On Thursday, July 08, 1999 12:18 PM
Bont said,

> However, in M0 (T4), the information is being suppressed.  Emperor
> Cleon I wants the Ancients to be Human, hence the Archon Theory.

I haven't heard of this theory.  Is it your own invention, or from some
other source?

> Of course, savvy PCs will quickly discover the cover up once they
> have found an Archon (Ancient) site; the seats are all wrong for
> humans but just perfect for Droyne.

I always figured that since the Ancients re-invented most of the tech at
each site, things like chairs and such might not be readily recognizable.
Allot of sitting things like high tech beanbags that re-form to conform to
the individual user would minimize deductions about the Ancients anatomy.
Also didn't the Ancients try using human and other races for labor?  Allot
of furniture could be designed to fit these or a variety of such folk.

G.D.D.
=======
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to
stick to possibilities; truth isn't.  -Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 15:43:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

At 06:20 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>What about that "active" armor the U.S. Army was experimenting with? 
>The stuff on tank hulls that was actually shape charges designed to
>detonate against hostile fire?  To my understanding this would be really
>stupid (unless I am missing something here).  Don't tanks typically use
>infantry in a localized support role?  So if I wanted to kill a bunch of
>U.S. soldiers, I'd aim at the tank's active armor and watch it wipe out
>the troops.

Reactive armor, blocks of explosive placed on the tank to prevent the
plasma jet of a HEAT round from forming.

It's not dangerous to exposed troops near the vehicle, since there's no
fragmentation and the actual explosion is fairly small.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #834
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 8 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 835



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Armour limits
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: 'Sane' battledress
Re: Battledress
Re: 'Sane' battledress
Re: 'Sane' battledress
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Battledress [thong!]
RE: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Armour Limits

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

Ian or Katts writes:
> 
> I think we have found the problem, people.
> 
> In FFS2, 0.4 cm of TL15 bonded superdense has an armour factor of about 16.

I already said that advanced laminate armor is 5x stronger than bonded SD.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:13:57 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

> Reactive armor, blocks of explosive placed on the tank to prevent the
> plasma jet of a HEAT round from forming.
> 
> It's not dangerous to exposed troops near the vehicle, since there's no
> fragmentation and the actual explosion is fairly small.

Ok, I didn't know this.  When I first heard about it (from a friend in
the army) he said it was classified.  (this was a number of years ago).
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 16:45:56
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

At 07:13 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> It's not dangerous to exposed troops near the vehicle, since there's no
>> fragmentation and the actual explosion is fairly small.
>
>Ok, I didn't know this.  When I first heard about it (from a friend in
>the army) he said it was classified.  (this was a number of years ago).

Really?  The Soviets and Israelis have had the stuff for almost a quarter
century, IIRC.

The US Army never made much use of it, but the USMC used on their old
M-60A3 tanks before they got the M1s which don't really need the reactive
stuff.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:10:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

At 12:19 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>

>But if I do want to play Marines, it will have to be a very different
>version from the past iterations of Traveller, it seems. Sorry, I won't buy
>this. (Seriously, I won't.  If it's set up that way, I will not lay down my
>money for it.) I can just barely accept one or two unplayable pages as in
>StarMercs, but not a whole third of the book.

Your choice.

>I guarantee that they will get shouted down by the same people who slammed
>Commando armor as too heavy.  You cannot please everyone, so you have to
>decide who to piss off.  Better it be the gearheads, since they'll never be
>happy anyway and will at least get some pleasure out of deigning a better
>suit.  The non-gearheads will throw up their hands in disgust and say "I
>can't design anything more playable because I don't even own Vehicles and
>don't want to."  Does GURPS really want to alienate this sector of the
>market any more than it already has?

Ah.  I was wondering when we'd get to gearhead bashing.

There is a very usable set of Battledress in the GURPS: Traveller book that
can be used as a "basic" set.  What I am talking about is the Marine
Assault Armor.

I just want to understand, you are saying that you want to run a military
campaign in a very technological setting, but you don't think that
well-designed equipment is important?

>The book should not be written primarily for grognards and gearheads.  It
>should be written for the average player (not the ones who read Pyramid and
>TML).  They want fun, not a military simulation.  To the extent that GT
>becomes a simulation rather than an adventure game, it is a bad product,
>and I'll fight it.  I don't think I'll be alone.  If the gearheads decide
>they can do better, let them.  But not in the official universe. 

Thank you for the warning.  I could go to the other extreme and build a
suit that has a total DR of 100, and can be ripped apart by most any weapon
in traveller.  Of course, people will wonder *why* the Imperium would buy
something so sucky in the first place.

>Playability should overrule everything else in published material.  If you
>can't write the book with this in mind, you shouldn't write it at all.  If
>you can't write it with respect to the source material, you shouldn't write
>it.

I look forward to reviewing you manuscript submission.  You are submitting
to write this, aren't you?

For the last time; GURPS mechanics are different than Traveller.  Building
a suit of armor with a DR of around 600 will allow the wearer to be killed
by military weapons, but out of necessity render him almost immune to most
civilian type firearms.

Part of the problem her is that CT didn't separate penetration from the
chance to hit.  It was a lumped together in a series of DMs.  MT was a bit
better, and if you recall, it made battledress all the more tougher.  The
Marine Assault BD in Traveller Journal #1(?) had an armor of 22, more than
enough to defeat the vast majority of weapons.

TNE armor was lower tech, and was vulnerable to things like 15mm AMRs
firing DS rounds.  Using FFS1 you could build TL15 battledress that
shrugged of most any weapon in the game.

>Just to give some perspective, I've done several designs for GT: Imperial
>Navy. Those designs are not the absolute best that could be extracted from
>the rules system by bending it unmercifully.  They are the most interesting
>that I could make using the rules as a guide, and conforming to the
>descriptions in CT or MT.  Where I could build a more capable ship without
>violating the spirit of the design, I did, but I also designed ships that
>were weaker than they absolutely had to be.

I don't see where any of the proposed design features bend the system
"unmercifully", I'm simply doing the best job I can to design a suit of
GTL-12 armor that allows the wearer to do the most damage while remaining
alive.
 
>> The standard weapon of the Imperial Marines is the FGMP-12.  The armor
>>has to provide adequate defences against that class of weapon or it's
>>useless.
>
>Why?  Does modern body armor provide adequate protection against a 5.56mm
>rifle round?  No.  Name an era in history when the standard individual
>armor was sufficient to exclude 90% of shots from the standard individual
>weapons of the day (since this seems to be your standard for "adequate"). 
>I can't think of one.

The medieval period before the crossbow.  Most battles between armored
knights were decided by who dropped from exhaustion first.  HarnMaster
models this period quite well.

We can make a suit today that will stop a 5.56 round.  But it's so heavy
and bulky that it's impractical.  Not so for the designers of Imperial
battledress, they can build a suit that is tough enough to withstand fusion
fire and powered so that the operator doesn't have to life the 5-600 lbs of
mass himself.

>Since the Zhodani are the most typical threat force in most Trav games, I'd
>use them as my benchmark.  I'd assume that the FGMP-11 (the standard Zho
>squad heavy weapon) has been engineered to reliably defeat existing
>Imperial Marine battledress (i.e. at least 50% of the time) and backdesign
>the armor from that assumption. That gives you a protection level of around
>DR500 including superconducting layer, which is close to the existing GT
>TL11 battledress.  Even this confers too much protection against the
>standard Zho individual weapon, the PGMP-10.  Assault dress, issued only to
>a very few units, could be a bit more butch (say DR600) but that's the
>absolute max. 

Good points, but the Imperium and Zhodani have been at their respective TLs
for at least 100 years ( the Imperium reaches TTL-15 during the Solomani
Rim War, I don't have a date for the Zhos reaching TTL-14).

I find it hard to believe that the armor wouldn't have been upgraded
sometime in the forty years since the end of the Fourth Frontier War, or
the ten years since the end of the Fifth.  Measure/Countermeasure, the old
story of military development. 

>Just so you know: If you do write this book and include an overpowered
>supersuit with bad play balance characteristics just because it's
>technically feasible, I will be on the playtest complaining about it
>loudly. If the book goes to print without playtesting the hardware, I will
>be here on TML telling people not to buy it. Consider this fair warning.  

I just love threats.

Has it occurred to you that the reason I'm doing this, and suffering all
these slings and arrows, is so that the book works right the first time
through?  I've gotten a couple of decent designs from people and will
collect them and post them here for comment.  I don't even have the bloody
assignment yet, and I'm trying to gage reactions.

Sop far, it's been a few people *vehemently* opposed, a few people
extremely supportive, and the vast majority either lukewarm or silent on
the matter.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:19:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 'Sane' battledress

At 01:00 PM 7/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Ok...here's more or less how I might have designed 'imperial battle dress'
>for Star Mercs.  For reference, I was the designer for the tanks (and feel
>free to bitch about the Astrin, it should probably be an IFV not an APC,
>and is in fact a GTL 11 design, even though star mercs says TL 12).  Note
>that this _is_ a relatively lightly armored design -- there's only 217.5
>lb of armor on it; this is key to maintain very low ground pressure.

This is a great design!

A few questions:

>Electronics: medium tightbeam radio w/scrambler (Hd,HP 1,range 5,000 miles),
>    short range lasercomm(Hd,HP 1, range 1,000 miles), PESA/20(Hd, HP 2,
>    scan 19 or vision +4/+8), radscanner/10(Hd,HP 1, scan 17), surveillance
>    sound detector/10(Hd,HP 1), HUDWAC, small hardened DX +3 robotic 
>    computer Bo,HP 1,Cx6)

Why did you go for the robotic computer?

>Power: body holds one rD cell with 15 kWh of power, endurance about 6
>    hours unless flying.  Pod holds either two rE cells (with 150 kWh each)
>    or one rE cell and a 55 kW RTG.

Am I safe in assuming that the rD cell is emergency back-up to the power
sources in the pod?


>Armor: PD 4/DR 400 advanced laminate on body and head, PD 4/DR 300 advanced
>    laminate on all other locations.  Thermal-superconducting layer
>    increases  this to 4/650 on torso/head, 4/550 on other locations.

This is a decent amount of armor.. I'll play with some numbers tonight.
Average damage of 114d6 (or 6dx19) will penetrate.  Go as low as 6dx12 and
you *might* get a penetration, if you are lucky.


>While the standard weapon for a battlesuit frequently is equivalent to an
>FGMP, it isn't the same as the man-portable weapon -- it is armored, heavily
>stealthed, and is designed to feed from a battlesuit power system.  It also
>includes independent targeting sensors for people who are addicted to
>shooting around corners.  It consists of:

Ditzie would be proud.

If I may be so bold, I'd like to suggest a name for this weapon: The Hellwhip

All in all, great work!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:25:57 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>>Answers a recent post from someone who said this wasn't the intention,
>>anyway, so it is.  So not even the supporters have a clue?
>
>I was commenting on the ability to not get wounded by most enemy fire.  I
>have to ask, have you ever been shot at?

Yep! And that's why I agree with you.  What a lot of people don't understand
about the GURPS system is that under most GURPS optional rules violence is
very reflective of reality.

That means if someone unloads a couple of dozen rounds at you and hit you
you're dead. That's why even in contemporary GURPS games people wear kevlar
and avoid firefights like the plague.  Most of the time the last thing you
want to do is get into a gun battle. If you have to you do it the way SWAT
teams or Delta Force does it. You use every advantage. Shoot first. Kill
every opfor member BEFORE they know they're being shot at.

If you use the optional bleeding rules then even if you survive the
wounding, and the shock, without medical attention you'll most probably die.
Not very superhero like. In fact some games I know dislike GURPS for just
that reason.  You're PC can actually DIE! Some 25 point NPC can take out
your 175 point character just because he cuts you with a $5 knife. It's too
much like reality for them.

Of course GURPS allows cinamagraphic rules where almost nothing can take out
your character. And all rules are optional. But I think that the closer to
RL effects you play as a result of violence the more you, as a PC, want the
edge. So that you can actually survive.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: 'Sane' battledress

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> A few questions:
> 
> >Electronics: medium tightbeam radio w/scrambler (Hd,HP 1,range 5,000
> >miles),     short range lasercomm(Hd,HP 1, range 1,000 miles),
> >PESA/20(Hd, HP 2,     scan 19 or vision +4/+8), radscanner/10(Hd,HP 1, scan
> >17), surveillance     sound detector/10(Hd,HP 1), HUDWAC, small hardened DX
> >+3 robotic      computer Bo,HP 1,Cx6)
> 
> Why did you go for the robotic computer?

So if the person inside gets disabled, it can head to safety on its own.
> 
> >Power: body holds one rD cell with 15 kWh of power, endurance about 6
> >    hours unless flying.  Pod holds either two rE cells (with 150 kWh
> >    each) or one rE cell and a 55 kW RTG.
> 
> Am I safe in assuming that the rD cell is emergency back-up to the power
> sources in the pod?

Well, without a pod it has about 6 hours endurance (both power and life
support); I guess we can call that 'backup'.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:35:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: 'Sane' battledress

Douglas E. Berry writes:
> 
> This is a decent amount of armor.. I'll play with some numbers tonight.
> Average damage of 114d6 (or 6dx19) will penetrate.  Go as low as 6dx12 and
> you *might* get a penetration, if you are lucky.

Oh...it has been left unresolved as far as I know, but GURPS APSHD ammunition
might be another GURPSism which you want to ban.  A 20mm electromagnetic
cannon (very short barrel, low power) does 6d*6(5) with APFSDSHD, and is only
9 lb plus another 8 lb for a 50 round magazine.  That's basically smaller than
a FGMP, and has slightly higher penetration (630 vs 560, on average, and not
affected by thermal-superconducting, and a much smaller visual signature,
though it has no blast effects).  If you drop APSHD ammunition (superdense
isn't any denser than uranium, should it have more penetration?) damage is
only 6d*6(3) for average 378 penetration, which is better balanced vs fusion
guns.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:14:24 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]


>I just want to understand, you are saying that you want to run a military
>campaign in a very technological setting, but you don't think that
>well-designed equipment is important?


Despite my misguided comments to the contrary, I'd really love it if
Imperial Marines were to wear the traditional "battle dress" of various
South American tribes.

Now, pay attention, it's *imperative* that you get this absolutely right!
One string is looped around. Another string is tied to this loop so as to
make a sort of harness. On one side, where the two strings are attached, you
need to add a hanging bit of cloth.

When it's done, you should have a sort of "thong" design, with a bit of
cloth to cover your naughty bits.

Now, tell me guys who were dressed like that carrying fusion guns *wouldn't*
scare you if they started climbing out of drop capsules!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:23:43 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Battledress [long]
> Date: Thursday, 08 July, 1999 1:10 PM
> 
> At 12:19 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> >But if I do want to play Marines, it will have to be a very different
> >version from the past iterations of Traveller, it seems. Sorry, I won't
buy
> >this. (Seriously, I won't.  If it's set up that way, I will not lay down
my
> >money for it.) I can just barely accept one or two unplayable pages as
in
> >StarMercs, but not a whole third of the book.
> 
> Your choice.

 
> >I guarantee that they will get shouted down by the same people who
slammed
> >Commando armor as too heavy.  You cannot please everyone, so you have to
> >decide who to piss off.  Better it be the gearheads, since they'll never
be
> >happy anyway and will at least get some pleasure out of deigning a
better
> >suit.  The non-gearheads will throw up their hands in disgust and say "I
> >can't design anything more playable because I don't even own Vehicles
and
> >don't want to."  Does GURPS really want to alienate this sector of the
> >market any more than it already has?
> 
> Ah.  I was wondering when we'd get to gearhead bashing.

Not gearhead bashing, but a plea for recognition that gearheads are a
minority, albeit a vocal one.  Most gamers in my experience don't have the
time or inclination.
 
> There is a very usable set of Battledress in the GURPS: Traveller book
that
> can be used as a "basic" set.  What I am talking about is the Marine
> Assault Armor.

This sees a change from before.  Marine assault armor is a specialized
piece of kit.  Most Marine BD will not be assault dress.  At least, that's
the implication form DGP, which isn't cannon, but should be respected where
possible.

> I just want to understand, you are saying that you want to run a military
> campaign in a very technological setting, but you don't think that
> well-designed equipment is important?

Nice of you to put words in my mouth.  I think well-designed is important,
but real world gear has vulnerabilities.  And the canon material we have to
work with makes some very explicit assumptions about the capability of top
of the line battledress that you are discarding.  I think there are plenty
of reasons that the IM may use gear that's a bit less than perfect, form
bureaucratic inertia, to expense, to technological limits that don't
manifest in the Vehicles design sequence.
 
> Thank you for the warning.  I could go to the other extreme and build a
> suit that has a total DR of 100, and can be ripped apart by most any
weapon
> in traveller.  Of course, people will wonder *why* the Imperium would buy
> something so sucky in the first place.

I didn't say you should, did I?  I think a modestly improved suit,
basically a TL12  version of the basic battledress in GT would be fine for
line infantry, with a heavied up version for the (very rare) assault dress.
 That strikes a balance between invulnerable and too vulnerable.

> I look forward to reviewing you manuscript submission.  You are
submitting
> to write this, aren't you?

No, I'm not, partially because I don't have time and partially because I'm
really naval specialist rather than ground forces, although I do work with
the Marine Corps from time to time.  I thought hard about proposing to do
Imperial Navies and decided that I don't have the time.  
 
 >Just to give some perspective, I've done several designs for GT: Imperial
> >Navy. Those designs are not the absolute best that could be extracted
from
> >the rules system by bending it unmercifully.  
> 
> I don't see where any of the proposed design features bend the system
> "unmercifully", I'm simply doing the best job I can to design a suit of
> GTL-12 armor that allows the wearer to do the most damage while remaining
> alive.

But disregarding the spirit of the earlier work far too much in my mind.  I
think it's probably better to deliberately design systems with limitations,
because this makes for more interesting games.

> Name an era in history when the standard individual
> >armor was sufficient to exclude 90% of shots from the standard
individual
> >weapons of the day (since this seems to be your standard for
"adequate"). 
> >I can't think of one.
> 
> The medieval period before the crossbow.  Most battles between armored
> knights were decided by who dropped from exhaustion first. 

Nice, although the longbow seems to have had some success.  And those
armored nights were rather the minority.  Most soldiers on the field in
those battles were rather less well armored.  
 
> Good points, but the Imperium and Zhodani have been at their respective
TLs
> for at least 100 years ( the Imperium reaches TTL-15 during the Solomani
> Rim War, I don't have a date for the Zhos reaching TTL-14).
> 
> I find it hard to believe that the armor wouldn't have been upgraded
> sometime in the forty years since the end of the Fourth Frontier War, or
> the ten years since the end of the Fifth.  Measure/Countermeasure, the
old
> story of military development. 

Well, the Zhos have not upgraded significantly, as witness AR1, which gives
then the same equipment as Alien Module 4 for the most part. I think it's
very unfair on them to upgrade the Imperials significantly. Before you
comment on the unfairness of war, I simply mean that it reduces the
dramatic possibilities a lot to have then so totally outclassed.  
 
> 
> I just love threats.

Normally, I don't threaten, but you seemed so deadset against anyone who
might disagree with you that I got testy.  I apologize for the tone, but
the substance remains.  If standard imperial marine Battledress is 90%
immune to a GURPS FGMP-12, or anywhere close to it, then it's too powerful
and an indication that the supplement as a whole does too much simulation
and not enough drama.  

I certainly don't mean it personally.  I don't know you and I'm sure you're
a nice guy, but I just think that this is the kind of thing that could do
real damage to GT as a game.  GURPS has a reputation for being too far into
the gearhead camp already, and it's alienating some potential players.  If
the purpose of GT is to attract non-GURPS players to GURPS, than it's not
good if the supplements play up the gearhead nature of the game too much.
 

> Sop far, it's been a few people *vehemently* opposed, a few people
> extremely supportive, and the vast majority either lukewarm or silent on
> the matter.

Count me vehement.  But silent.  I'm on travel for a while so I won't be
posting for a week or two.  Hopefully this will have passed by then.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 20:34:36 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [thong!]

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >I just want to understand, you are saying that you want to run a military
> >campaign in a very technological setting, but you don't think that
> >well-designed equipment is important?
> 
> Despite my misguided comments to the contrary, I'd really love it if
> Imperial Marines were to wear the traditional "battle dress" of various
> South American tribes.
> 
> Now, pay attention, it's *imperative* that you get this absolutely right!
> One string is looped around. Another string is tied to this loop so as to
> make a sort of harness. On one side, where the two strings are attached, you
> need to add a hanging bit of cloth.
> 
> When it's done, you should have a sort of "thong" design, with a bit of
> cloth to cover your naughty bits.
> 
> Now, tell me guys who were dressed like that carrying fusion guns *wouldn't*
> scare you if they started climbing out of drop capsules!

I just want to thank all the TMLers who sacrificed their keyboards, in
order to teach me a valuable lesson:

First you read, then you re-read, _then_ you sip!

Otherwise, I would have had to replace this keyboard (scarcely a month
old).

"Bruce", you should have put a KW (Keyboard Warning) in this post's
header....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

[BTW, the boycott's over; Yahoo! capitulated on 6 Jul 99.]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:39:57 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: RE: Droyne & The Ancients

> > However, in M0 (T4), the information is being suppressed.  Emperor
> > Cleon I wants the Ancients to be Human, hence the Archon Theory.
> 
> I haven't heard of this theory.  Is it your own invention, or from some
> other source?

Well, perhaps "suppressed" is the wrong word.  Current theory is 
that the Archons were Human.  It is politically correct to agree with 
this theory as it lends support for Cleon's push to re-establish the 
Imperium.  Any other theory is "professionally" unsound.  See Page 
74 of the M0 book.
 
> > Of course, savvy PCs will quickly discover the cover up once they
> > have found an Archon (Ancient) site; the seats are all wrong for
> > humans but just perfect for Droyne.
> 
> I always figured that since the Ancients re-invented most of the tech at
> each site, things like chairs and such might not be readily recognizable.
> Allot of sitting things like high tech beanbags that re-form to conform to
> the individual user would minimize deductions about the Ancients anatomy.
> Also didn't the Ancients try using human and other races for labor?  Allot
> of furniture could be designed to fit these or a variety of such folk.

You would make a poor Archaeologist in Cleon the first's time. :)


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 21:45:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

> I'm working on some notes on the Emperors List, trying to work out who
> these weenies are.

You got the Library Data LBBs?  There's an Emperor's List in one of thm...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:44:56 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

> >Queston:  Anyone know how to determine the thickness of armor using VE2? 
> >All I can find are the mass and DR.  I think its entirely possible that a
> >DR 800 suit of armor would be so thick as to be almost to make fit human
> >joints and range of motion.  But then I'm just guessing.
> 
> 
> I figure it thus (and probably incorrectly):
> 
> 1 inch hard steel = DR 70.
> 800 DR = 11.429 inches hard steel.
> 11.429 inches x armor modifier = actual thickness of 800 DR of material.

> But then I'm barely legal as a gearhead.

According to GURPS Basic, 3 sf x 1" of steel has DR 8 and 80 HP.  
Page125.   

Now that is a non-gearhead answer for you.




- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:14:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Armour limits
...
>I think we have found the problem, people.
>
>In FFS2, 0.4 cm of TL15 bonded superdense has an armour factor of about 16.
...
>Now, in CT, battledress had problems under Striker as well - you could get
>hurt by heavy machineguns, and cut in half by VFR Gauss Guns. Cluster
>bomblets also gave you problems.

  TL E-F BD in CT was fairly survivable at a Striker AV of 18 (5.0 cm of hard
steel equivalent, aka ~4mm of bonded superdense) - energy-weapon shoulder-arms,
and AT light support weapons would all reliably neutralize a suit; with an FGMP
having a Pen of 34 (~20cm/hard steel) and doing 16 dice CT-style "neutralize"
might be a weasel-phrase for "convert to super-heated goo".

  I'm not sure that an HMG could hurt one, but 20mm AC's become a hassle at
about TL 8 - a 45mm ATG can do it at TL 5 (!).

  BD in CT might not be very cost-effective, but it was from invulnerable, 
and the latter consideration seems more important to me; if I wanted to be
able to design battlesuits and walkers in CT I'd do up the necessary design
sequences a la Striker. Oh, wait, I did...

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #835
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 836



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battledress [long]
Speaking of Ancients...
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: 'Sane' battledress
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Battle Thong-12 and rant
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress [long]...
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr (long)
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress...
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Speaking of Ancients...
Re: TML Archives
Re: The Yahoo!/GeoCities Dispute
Re: Battledress [thong!]
Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant
re: Why I don't play GT 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Thomas Schoene wrote:

> This is where the main problem seems to arise: just what should be required
> to defeat battledress.  CT established that BD is vulnerable to a fairly
> wide range of  personal weapons.  GT is supposed to parallel CT as much as
> practical. (This is the guidance being given to GT writers.)  Therefore
> Doug's statement that his proposed Imperial Marine BD is not CT-style BD is
> an immediate red flag.  His suggestion that Imperial Marine BD should be
> 90% immune to an FGMP-15 (-12 in GT) is a major change that runs contrary
> to established cannon.  Now, GT need not follow CT slavishly (it's hard to
> make worthwhile BD that is still vulnerable to GT's version of shaped
> charge snub pistol rounds, for example) but it should not deliberately
> discard CT canon altogether without a sound roleplaying rationales.  
> 
There are a couple of caveats to the idea that snub pistols MUST penetrate
battledress: they couldn't in STRIKER, and I don't think they could in
SNAPSHOT or AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING. I assume that STRIKER, SNAPSHOT and
AHL play a part in CT "canon" and they were used as the basis for
MegaTraveller combat (which also featured battledress that bounced snub
pistol rounds.) Of course, I have my own problems with the STRIKER/MT
penetration & armor values (I never could stomach the idea that cloth
armor could stop a heavy machinegun--a Ma Deuce vs. the heaviest Kevlar is
still no contest...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:04:01 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Speaking of Ancients...

Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I know
Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't ever remember
seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 20:26:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

...
>The medieval period before the crossbow.  Most battles between armored
>knights were decided by who dropped from exhaustion first.  HarnMaster
>models this period quite well.

  I've never actually seen anyone fall over from exhaustion while playing
HarnMaster, but I've seen some rout after morale failures. At least now I
can make sense of why there's so many die rolls to be made in that system...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 20:26:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: 'Sane' battledress

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: 'Sane' battledress
...
>ammunition (superdense isn't any denser than uranium, should it have more 
>penetration?) damage is only 6d*6(3) for average 378 penetration, which is 
>better balanced vs fusion guns.

  IIRC the main issue with solid AP after actual density is the strength 
of the material - the stronger it is the longer the penetrator can be and
thus the higher the effective cross-sectional density. Apparently melting
temperatures of the materials involved can also be an issue, but that's not
really researchable in open source, AFAIK :(

  Thus, if superdense is _much_ tougher than steel or tungsten (and it is)
then it could be a superior AP ammo - which the same rules say it really
isn't. To complicate further, with superdense some of the advantages can
be ignored if you assume that both sides are using it, but GURPS appears
to further assume that bleeding edge materials technology is armour only
(which might be correct, anyway).

  At least having GURPS: Vehicles on the end of the shelf protects the 
covers of my G:T books :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 21:28:16 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

>"...[Grandfather explained] Who in the Imperium today [1116] knoew these
>facts? No one knows them all, but there are a few scattered sophontologists
>who have come to the conclusion that the Droyne are the modern-day
descendents
>of the Ancients, and they are somehow not as intelligent as the earlier
race."
>(p. 48)
>
>There are some people who are coming to that conclusion, and unless your PC's
>are run through the 'Secrets of the Ancients' adventure, that's all _anyone_
>knows. Note, the section says that equating the Drtoyne with the Ancients is
>just starting to become known.

Different sources vary as to how much is known, but I would suspect that
in the general Imperium populace, the connection between the Ancients and
the Droyne has not been made -- or if it has, it's just one of several
theories that people talk about. Think of modern-day conspiracy theory as
a parallel example. Look how many different theories there are about the
assassination of JFK: Oswald was 
	a) a lone nut, 
	b) a CIA spook, 
	c) a KGB spook, 
	d) Elvis

Some other "Who are the Ancients?" theories that I have seen include
the Archons theory (Humaniti are the decendants of the Ancients), and
the Geonee theory (the Geonee *are* the Ancients). I'm sure we here on
the TML can come up with a few more. Like, say, the Hivers were the
Ancients...

By the say, "Droyne & the Ancients" sounds like a good name for a rock
band, doesn't it?

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:22:06 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Battle Thong-12 and rant

Bruce (Doug) Berry writes :
***************************
Now, pay attention, it's *imperative* that you get this absolutely right!
One string is looped around. Another string is tied to this loop so as to
make a sort of harness. On one side, where the two strings are attached,
you
need to add a hanging bit of cloth.

When it's done, you should have a sort of "thong" design, with a bit of
cloth to cover your naughty bits.

Now, tell me guys who were dressed like that carrying fusion guns
*wouldn't*
scare you if they started climbing out of drop capsules!

***************************

Good God! I just cant wait for the gearheads to mull over this one!

"is it Super Dense or Bonded Laminates g string?"

PS. Serious bit here.

I support Bruce's work here. BD has been evolving since CT, and for the
people harking that the design is broken from cannon have missed the point:

1. Cannon has been evolving since day one, contradictions galore have
appeared in *approved* meterial, and sometimes the information supplied has
been laughable *COMPARED WITH TODAYS TECHNOLOGY*.

Case in point, T4 had cold fusion and battledress, which sooo broke cannon
(even though I worship Greg Porter as a god).

2. GT is based on CT, but CT is a flawed system that is 25 years old and is
no longer evolving. Things that made sense then can look ridiculous today.

3. I disagreed with the fact that all marines have BD, but it is a fact, as
stated by Loren. I however do not think my view should be the enforced view
in the TML. Discussed yes, flamed, definately. I thought of a way around
that (Navy supplying transport and logistics) This will be used in my
campaigns (even the stuff in the Star Mercs book is still usable, the
marine APC is in fact called that by the marines, the Navy calls it the
Marine Deployment Pinnace [MDP])

4. If you object to the worldview of Bruce (Doug) Berry, ignore it. Buy the
Book, burn the book if you must, but for god sake dont let Traveller die
another death (2 is enought, I will support inocent mistakes, but poor
production values NEVER, and SJG has never had bad production valies)

This may be flame bait. I want a Traveller that is relevent to me. People
like Bruce (Doug) are making an effort. CT is not (i wuld go back to MT
before CT, at least it had a skill use system).


Bruce Darryl Adams
Univerity of Wollommoolloo
Visit our Web Site : http://www.ParraCity.nsw.gov.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:45:37 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress...



>
> I was commenting on the ability to not get wounded by most enemy fire.  I
> have to ask, have you ever been shot at?
>

And I'm assuming you have been, while on your feet, totally impervious to
it?  I don't fully understand what century you were fighting in, are you
from the future where this BD does exist?

No I have never been fired upon, but I'm sure no-one in this century, as a
foot soldier has had 90% protection from opposing infantry fire while only
wearing body armour.

Otherwise, what my real-life experiences and your fantasy (BD in a perfect
universe) ones have to do with it, I am not sure?

>
> I ask for feedback for constructive criticism, not constant harping on the
> fact that GT isn't CT, a game that's been out of print for over a decade.
>

However, unless someone has posted in total agreeance with you, you have
simply repeated your statement that "No, this is as *I* want it" (not those
same words, I am paraphrasing), so why ask?

> You say that GT Battledress is too tough, I ask (over and over again) if
> you'd trust a bullet proof vest that fails one time in ten.  Well?
>

Well, getting away from your Anime/comic concept, back to real life, I would
have no other choice as there is no such thing to my knowledge, that will
give me, as an infantry/assault trooper, 90% protection from enemy infantry
when I am on the ground in that capacity.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:31:38 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]



> The rest of the book will detail the army, with an emphasis on
> non-traditional campaigns like playing engineers or medical staff.
>
> One more time, if you don't like the way Battledress is presented in
GURPS,
> you are under no obligation to use it in any way, shape or form.  You
could
> easily run a M*A*S*H game where there was very little gunfire at all.
>

Right-oh, so now it's little gunfire or you must have BD?  Do IM's have
M*A*S*H Units, or is the IN still carrying that tradition for them, meaning
that players who don't want BD can't play IM's?

> Now, about playability.
>
> Everybody remember "Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium"?  Better
> known as "Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium"?  Those designs are
> broken.  Badly.  Many of the TNE designs were awful.  Just about anytime
> there has been a published design for Traveller, somebody on this list has
> said "I can do better than that."
>

Everyone has some ruling or design they want changed, thought they could do
better with (and probably, correctly so) with most game rules and
supplements.  The average player doesn't care about background history,
politics, or internal government red-tape... they usually simply ask, "Why
didn't they do things this way?"  then produce excellent reasons for their
personally required changes.

The reason they are broken is perhaps because they were forced to be made
that way.  People behind the scenes chose components for reasons other than
them being the best for the application.  These were for whatever reason you
like... kick-backs, conflict of interests, cost cutting (yes, I know your
perfect universe doesn't suffer this problem, the marines get funding all
the time while military schools and hospitals undergo cutbacks, naval
maintenance suffer budget reductions, whatever).  But I felt that added a
touch of realism which made it just a little easier to suspend disbelief for
an evening of gaming.

When my players used to ask (especially new gamers), "Come on, withthis
technology, why would...?" all I had to answer was, "Well, it's usually left
in the hands of government bodies with reels of red tape..." and they would
nod and smile and reply, "Just like real life hey?  I understand THAT!"

> I guarantee that if _Ground Forces_ gets published with a sub-par set of
> armor in it, within two weeks someone on this very list will bitch about
> how it's too weak.  And then post a corrected version.  I want to avoid
> that by building the best possible suit for inclusion.
>

Let them.  No skin of your nose.  You reckon they're not going to pick your
stuff apart anyway?  It's not even published, and many on this list are
doing that already.  Only your perfect suit isn't getting picked to pieces
because it's not perfect, but unrealistically too perfect.  Not to mention
the "IM's are deployed in certain combat situations without BD" which
started this thing in the first place, from many posters that you chose to
ignore.  Sad huh?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:32:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr (long)

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor writes:
> "The premise I'm having difficulty with is this :-
> Would organisms from an older ecosystem (Chtorr, etc.) 
> necessarily fare better in a new environment with 'younger' 
> flora and fauna (Earthly), in the absence of design?
>
> The implication is that adaptability improves with age of 
> ecosystem.
>
> My understanding of evolution would be that the opposite is 
> more likely as lineages move to fill ever more specialised 
> niches with time.
>
> Thoughts? Constructive comments?"
>
>         This is a toughy. Natural selection will tend to produce
>         organisms that are well suited to a particular 
>         environment. That environment includes the other 
>         organisms in it. Environments on Terra have changed over
>         time, so that organisms well suited to their environment
>         now might have a great deal of difficulty competing with
>         Jurasic organisms in some Jurasic environments. On the
>         other hand, some evolved traits have proved to be 
>         advantageous over a broad range of environments.
>
>         For example, placental mammals (those that feed their 
>         offspring through a placenta) appear to be more efficient
>         at reproduction than marsupials ("pouched" mammals) or
>         monotremes (egg-laying mammals). For that reason, just 
>         about everywhere that placental mammals have been able to 
>         get to, they have replaced the other groups. On the other
>         hand, the opposum has successfully competed in the 
>         Americas.
>
>         An interesting process that may be important is the 
>         "evolutionary arms race." This occurs when one species
>         evolves a trait that helps it to compete with (or eat
>         or escape) another species, then the second species
>         evolves a trait to overcome the first, and the first
>         species evolves another trait... For example, a 
>         parasitic worm infests certain fish as they feed on
>         plants. This imposes selection favouring fish that can
>         see and avoid the worms on the plants, which selects 
>         for worms that are more difficult to see. Perhaps an
>         improvement to the fish's immune system aids it in
>         killing the infestation, then the worm evolves skin
>         proteins that make it difficult to detect...
>
>         The longer that a biosphere has been evolving ("long"
>         in terms of number of generations), the more time that 
>         it will have had to 'come up with' new adaptations that
>         would give organisms an advantage over previous ones.
>         A higher mutation rate could also increase the number of
>         potential adaptations available. Nevertheless, moving 
>         into a new ecosystem in which you have not evolved is
>         likely to be difficult. It is also possible that, just by
>         chance, a younger biosphere will have 'come up with' some
>         important adaptations that never evolved in an older one.
>         In addition, if an immigrant species has to compete
>         directly with a native species that fills a very similar
>         'niche,' the native one has a big advantage in being 
>         already well-suited to its environment and well-established 
>         in numbers.
>
>         We often hear about species that are invading new areas on 
>         Terra (rabbits in Australia, Dutch Elm Disease in North 
>         America, etc.), but we don't hear about the many species
>         that are no doubt introduced but do not survive in their
>         new home. I would suggest that, in general, the number of
>         species that can successfully invade a new environment is
>         much smaller than the number that cannot, but that species
>         from 'longer' evolutionary trees may often have an 
>         advantage.

There's also the factor that in the attempt to "Chtorr-form" Earth, you
have to assume that the unseen aliens behind it have gathered specimens
and possibly even set up sample terran ecologies somewhere. Thus, they
can test organisms before introducing them on Earth. 

So when they "dump" an organism on Earth, they've already determined
that it's going to be one that walks all over the local competition.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:01:46 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress...


> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> >> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> >> Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 3:01 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Battledress...
>
> >I don't have any marines...?
>
>
> I must have imagined your posts to the lists where your view of the
marines
> differed from Doug's views and various bits of source material. I also
must
> have imagined the post in which you spoke for the "silent majority" of CT
> players (who had not weighed in on either side of the discussion) who
would
> rather see Imperial marines as they existed in YTU.
>
> My apologies then.
>

Oh that?  Sorry... but I'm not trying to publish my views for payment, and
was referencing from past publications and taking into account that, for a
handful of posts for pro comic-strength armour and IM's always deployed in
BD (about 3-4 actual individuals at the time, but more like 2-3 from
memory), there were more posters saying IM's would also be trained to, and
actually go into combat without BD, and that the proposed BD was far to
tough to be fun.

As for the silent majority, I never spoke for them, but did get a few more
out of the woodworks (so to speak).  Therefore, "I don't have any marines."

Actually, I'm sorry but, I must say that I discard many posts after they are
read or replied to and I have lost track of numbers due to the large amount
of postings on this thread.  Perhaps you have kept yours and would care to
look back on the figures of who posted for what aspect of the thread and get
real figures to use against me as this obviously worries you a great deal.
Remember, it would be the names of individuals to get this "survey" from,
not the actual number of posts.

- --  The Roc

PS:  I will state here and now, that I am not perfect and have been wrong be
fore.  I have no qualms in apologising when necessary, should you prove me
wrong on this.  Good luck my friend.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:25:10 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

> Well, getting away from your Anime/comic concept, back to real life, I
would
> have no other choice as there is no such thing to my knowledge, that will
> give me, as an infantry/assault trooper, 90% protection from enemy
infantry
> when I am on the ground in that capacity.


Oh, for ghu's sake, this is a science fiction game. Just because it doesn't
currently occur in real life ...

sigh.

What if, maybe ... just maybe ... there existed a protective suit that was
capable of doing just that. I know, it's crazy. But what if ...?

Just for the record, I think the view of the Imperial Marines as "the back
of the hand you don't want a taste of" is logical and interesting -- even
playable. I really don't see the exact problem people are having with this
concept, except that it doesn't fit their own concept.

This material reflects Doug's vision because, well, Doug's writing this
material. Big surprise there. And it's not like he's some kind of hack,
making this up out of whole cloth. He's got a good grasp of things Traveller
(indeed, better than most), and if he is taking a bit of creative license
with the bits and pieces of material that have been published over the
years -- well, that's the benefit of being the *writer*. It's the same
benefit enjoyed by most, nay, dare I say *all* creative writers who have
worked on Traveller material in the past.

Sure, this material doesn't goose-step in line with every single bit of past
Traveller writing. But reasonably, what piece of writing does, or could?
It's all compromise.

I think Doug's view of the Imperial Marines is just as valid as any other I
have read on this list, and more coherent than most. I think that it's
complimentary to and an improvement on previously published Traveller
material about them. It's not really a canon-breaking bombshell <giggle, I
made a funny> to have the Imperial Marines equipped with really
top-of-the-line, kick a**, high-tech equipment, is it?

And maybe, just maybe, there is more than one make and model of battledress
in the Imperium. Who knows, maybe two, three, four, or even several dozen.

Hey, it's not like Doug's even got the job yet. Maybe if we're lucky, SJG
will get Chris Foss to write it for them. <giggle>

Ciao,

Bruce R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Yes. I know Chris Foss is a painter.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:48:45 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

>>>Queston:  Anyone know how to determine the thickness of armor using VE2?
>>
>>I figure it thus (and probably incorrectly):
>>
>>1 inch hard steel = DR 70.
>>800 DR = 11.429 inches hard steel.
>>11.429 inches x armor modifier = actual thickness of 800 DR of material.
>
>>But then I'm barely legal as a gearhead.
>
>According to GURPS Basic, 3 sf x 1" of steel has DR 8 and 80 HP.
>Page125.
>
>Now that is a non-gearhead answer for you.


"1 inch of unsloped hard steel armor = DR 70" (GURPS Vehicles 2nd edition,
pg. 4)

Ah HA!

;-P

BTW: I actually remembered incorrectly, at least above. Since the weight
modifier for hard steel is 0.5, the actual method I used is:

1 inch hard steel = DR 70.
800 DR = 11.429 inches hard steel.
11.429 inches x weight modifier x 2 = actual thickness of 800 DR of
material.

But I'm a piker, and I'm sure Anthony's right and I'm not.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:40:00 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: Traveller@Mpgn. Com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 1:04 PM
Subject: Speaking of Ancients...


> Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I know
> Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't ever remember
> seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?
> 
> Best,
> Jesse
> 

Secret of the Ancients?  Wasn't there a biological ancient ship in that?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:34:27 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML Archives

Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> asks:

>How does one get a hold of all those older messages?  I think I started
>the list in either '97 or '98.

 The archives at ftp.mpgn.com hold most of 1996 forward, assuming you can
handle.tar.Z files. Older than that gets tricky. I have archives for most of 
the
period I've been on the TML, which is midway through MegaTraveller. I
still wish I had spent the modem time and mined the original TML archives
back to the start of the list, but modems were much slower back then...
 My archives are scattered a bit, and I'm currently working to unite them...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:08:43 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: The Yahoo!/GeoCities Dispute

Yahoo caves!  I guess boycotts actually work, sometimes, huh?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:27:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [thong!]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress [thong!]


>I just want to thank all the TMLers who sacrificed their keyboards, in
>order to teach me a valuable lesson:
>
>First you read, then you re-read, _then_ you sip!
>
>Otherwise, I would have had to replace this keyboard (scarcely a month
>old).
>
>"Bruce", you should have put a KW (Keyboard Warning) in this post's
>header....


No way, I'm serious! I'm just waiting to finish my GURPS Traveller South
American Tribal Commando Battle Dress. It's not playtested yet... but
suffice to say that in the history of warfare one's naughty bits have never
been safer.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:32:23 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant

- -----Original Message-----
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au <dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:31 PM
Subject: Battle Thong-12 and rant


>Good God! I just cant wait for the gearheads to mull over this one!
>
>"is it Super Dense or Bonded Laminates g string?"


Would that be fair or good streamlining?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:27:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Why I don't play GT 

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>Its not that I'm unfamiliar with GURPS. I am reasonably familiar and
>comfortable with the system (I just don't play it because its not to my own
>personal tastes). My "problem" with GT, the reason I don't play it using a
>different rule set is that theres something too much like CT for me. Its like
>the whole feel and style is too much of a reproduction of CT for me.
>
>Now, like I said, I loved playing CT back in the 70's and 80's. It was
>right up
>there with RuneQuest as one of my two favourite RPGs. But a few months
>ago I tried to play CT again. It just didn't feel right anymore. I guess I've
>moved past CT and it no longer suits me. Thats the problem I have with GT,
>it just isn't right for me. Its like when I listen to my old Sex Pistol or
>Clash
>records now, its fine for a brief bit of nostalga, but it just doesn't fit me
>anymore.

I understand, to some extent, where you're coming from. I bought CT back in
83 when I was an 11-12 year old who wanted to find out more about these
roleplaying games, having just read my first WD(52) and a Penguin book
'explaining D&D'. I'd always been a SciFi person, something I came back to
after I read Tolkien/Eddings etc, probably cemented by the trip with my Dad
to see Star Wars in 77 at the age of six.

CT was the best RPG I had read/played at the time - characters with
careers, a spanning space background which resembled Norton, Azimov and to
an extent Star Wars. The game was good, although I found combat a little
slow. Then along came MT and its task system. This was superb; it's still
one of the best laid out RPGs, and was very playable (except automatic gun
combat until I got DGP's screen). The background was expanded, plausible
and gave the opportunity to take things in a slightly different direction.
Hard Times is possibly one of the best PG supplements ever. Out came TNE,
butchered the  Third Imperium's remnants, massively changed the rules, and
tinkered with the technology. I kept buying the books, but found myself
running games set around 1116/1117 under MT with the transition to the
Rebellion. Then GDW died, and I was sad. :-/

T4 arrived, laden with typos, and all the problems associated with a lack
of playtesting and proofreading. It felt like CT in style, but blended with
TNE and MT. I liked it, and with the T4.1 drafts that Marc put out it felt
as if it was going to go somewhere. The production style was atrocious, but
there were gems there (Milieu 0 Campaign, Pocket Empires, Imperial
Squadrons, Psionics Institutes and Alien Archive).

Imperium folded, bringing bad feelings across the Traveller community, then
SJG brought out GT. And very nice it is too. Production quality beyond TNE,
not quite as nice (IMO) as MT, but better illustrated. But I don't like
GURPS rule system (which feels very 80s, beyond CT, but behind MT/TNE/T4).
And appears to be some creep from the GURPS non-Traveller material to
Traveller. At the moment I find it hard to see past a non-task based system
to the background. I suspect that I can have a lot of fun with GURPS
Traveller. I've bought the supplements - I think that Far Trader is
possibly one of the best Traveller supplements ever - and I'll carry on
doing so. I want GT to do well, but it doesn't feel right to me. I read the
books and I'm not inspired to run GURPS, but think how I could use this
with T4. For now, I'll stay with T4.1/T5 draft and wait patiently for Marc
to issue T5.

However, I think that GT should be supported, and I'm grateful that there
are people in BITS like Martin Dougherty and David Thomas who will take my
Traveller scenarios and add in the GURPS specific stuff. (I suppose *I*
should really, owning Space, and Basic, but I'm lazy :-) )

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #836
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 837



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Versions 
Re: Battledress...
BD revisited
Rosettes and LaGrange points
GT Skill Equivalence
[none]
RE: Armour limits
RE: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
RE: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: TML Archives
Re: Armour limits
Reactive armor
Re:  Speaking of Ancients...
Re:  Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Droyne &amp; The Ancients
re: 'Sane' Battledress
Re : The War Against the Chtorr
re: Battledress
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Battledress
STRIKER (was Re: Battledress)Re: 
RE: Speaking of Ancients...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:40:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Versions 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>I *liked* HT.  I could see the point of massive destruction happening
>throughout the confines of the old Imperium; after all, several factions are
>fighting a war to the last drop.  But a restored 3I?  Not a chance.
>Personally, I'm of the same frame of mind as the guy they quoted in SM I
>think about if the Rebellion ended one day and everything went back to
>'normal', it would invalidate everything that had happened.  IMTU, the
>Rebellion *happenned*.

I saw HT as the beginning of the end of the Imperium, setting things up for
the expansion of the most powerful remaining human empire, which would
slowly annex the rest of the empires remnants until the Solomani Sphere
became the Solomani oblong. I pictured Deneb and the Ziru Sirkaa surviving
as independent entities.

>> T4: The vison returns, but the rules go screwy.
>
>Everything I've read about it convinces me that M:0 is just the TNE without
>the pesky Virus, and with Humaniti still on top of the food chain.  So
>where's the Great Change?

Interesting perspective. I've seen many arguments here that M0 is to dark,
too nasty unlike good old shiny TNE. The game has a different feel (no
virus!) and I prefered it to TNE. It's darker (especially if you read stuff
like Joe Walsh's scenario in Missions of State) and has great opportunities
for politics/nobles/exploration and pirates<g>.

>Personally, I like the idea of the Rebellion.  Empires are born, grow up, and
>die.  History tells us this.  Nothing lasts forever.  IMNSFBHO, *let* the 3I
>die.  It's all just part of the process.

I always found a death by disintergration much more feasible than Virus.
But Virus was audacious..

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 04:29:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress...


>Oh that?  Sorry... but I'm not trying to publish my views for payment, and
>was referencing from past publications and taking into account that, for a


<shrug> I feel I've made my point, and you still haven't answered whether or
not you're actively trying to start a flamewar.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:29:01 -0700
From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
Subject: BD revisited

Just some thoughts from someone who's played since CT was new up through T4,
but hasn't played GT yet (although I have bought and read the material).

The average IM wants the most invulnerable pieces of equipment and armor
that he can place his hands on when going into battle. Most often it won't
be invulnerable, certainly not able to withstand 90% hits against what is
normally fielded against him. The next best thing is to make the average IM
*feel* invulnerable, tempered by better training, morale and discipline than
his opponent. All things being equal, the unit with better training,
discipline, moral and tactical insight will prevail. Thus, I don't have a
problem with designing the best suit of GT BD the rules will allow. I do ask
though, whenever have you seen the military field the very best of what was
available at the time? It's always slightly behind and subject to a variety
of design compromises. Remember the debacle surrounding the design of the
M2/M3 (Bradley)? Bureaucracy is unavoidable.

What is needed is the *other* side of the BD equation and this so far has
only been hinted at with the medieval examples: weapons technology.

What drives the research to design a new set of armor? The perceived threat
of a new weapon. What drives the design of a new weapon? The perceived
advantages of a new armor, strategy or desire to remove the threat from the
IM on the ground.

Given that, accept the BD as designed. Accept that *many* varieties of BD
will probably exist, each slightly different and tailored to varied
missions. Doug should also accept that the IMC probably doesn't have the
money to purchase in decisive numbers the design of BD that the design
bureaus probably don't have the time to build/design.

Build a better weapon.

Make it cheap and easy to field. Why not design a smart mine? The US is
doing that now. Imagine a mine with passive sensors designed to detect and
track BD (even to differentiate between grossly different models). Now add
the capability of the mines in an area to share information and to
coordinate their attack). Give the mine a pop-up capability. Let it decide
to attack from above and behind. How many suits of BD are going to have a
DR600 on top or in back?

Design a better weapon.

The intelligent mine example is possible at CT TL8 (real world now), think
what you could do at TL10-12.

I haven't gone through the design sequence for anything like this yet, but
fail to see why it should be impossible.

Don't like 6x PCs in apparently unstoppable BD? Build a better weapon.

David Larson
davidlarson@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 04:52:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Rosettes and LaGrange points

>It seems intuitive that there would be a "LaGrange" point at the
>revolutional center of the system (where the non-existent sun
>would be). Can't speak to others.
>- --

Logically, wouldn't htere also be a point just of the tanget between each
of the two worlds?
                 +
                A
               / \
              /   \ *
           * /  *  \
            /       \
        +  B---------C
                 *    +
A, B, C, Counterclockwise orbiting no star rosette
* probable stable points (if my understanding is correct about how it works)
+ Possible stable points from "Gravity Drag" into a faster orbit than
normal, held by the two preceeding bodies.

Yes, this is a SWAG... I'm no physicist...  but, the three outer * points
would have matched orbital velocities with ABC, and be held put by tidal
action from the two nearest bodies, and being inside the orbital elipse by
the opposed if close enough..

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 04:52:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: GT Skill Equivalence

>As I've pointed out (repeatedly), to force a CT player to devote an
>equivilant amount of skill to Battledress that a GT Marine devotes would
>require that the Marine spend have two skill levels out of 98 others.  The
>required expenditure is only 1.4% of the total!
>- --
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

Sorry, Doug, but you've made a calculation error. GURPS has a limit on
skill points [GURPS Basic, 3rd ed rev, pg. B43] (except where the setting
book redefines it, as in G:SO1 or G:Lensman): 2*age is maximum to be spent
on skills durign CGen. Rest goes to atts, advantages, etc
Some comparisons
Age	CT	MT	T4 [2]	GT	GT2pt%
18	0	0 [1]	4	=<36	~5.555
22	2-4	2-8	6-12	=<44	~4.545
26	3-7	3-15	7-20	=<52	~3.846
30	4-10	4-22	8-28	<=60	~3.333
34	5-13	5-29	9-36	=<68	~2.941

[1] not counting the 1-4 level 0 skills
[2] working from memory... my T4 books are misplaced.

So, assuming the maximum points rule is not rescinded, that two points is
about 5.555% for an 18yo just out of boot, and about 4.5% for a first
termer. (note, that, assuming maximum skills rolled under T4, Level one is
about 8_1/3% for a character having completed term 1.)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 05:26:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>There are a couple of caveats to the idea that snub pistols MUST penetrate
>battledress: they couldn't in STRIKER, and I don't think they could in
>SNAPSHOT or AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING. I assume that STRIKER, SNAPSHOT and
>AHL play a part in CT "canon" and they were used as the basis for
>MegaTraveller combat (which also featured battledress that bounced snub
>pistol rounds.) Of course, I have my own problems with the STRIKER/MT
>penetration & armor values (I never could stomach the idea that cloth
>armor could stop a heavy machinegun--a Ma Deuce vs. the heaviest Kevlar is
>still no contest...

Snapshot & AHL are effectively the smae rules, except for movement (stiker
is in tabletop inches, AHL in squares).
Snapshot is a grid-movement system with CT Bk1 combat tables reformatted.

Mechanically, MT is striker merged with HG, and having a damage stat added
to the (largely identical) pen ratings. And with interrupts added. And, if
you have Ref's Companion, scaling rules for squad/platoon level and
company/Battalion level scales.

Invasion Earth is a Battalion/Regiment/Brigade level planetwide invasion of
Earth, at the close of the solomani rim war.

 All are labeled as "Traveller Game" and, except striker, a number.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:35:51 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Armour limits

Just as a matter of interest when did the third Imperium get advanced
laminate armour. According to all the previous incarnations of Traveller
Bonded Superdense was the best the imperium had.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:35:49 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

Superdense armour is density 15 tons per cubit meter or approximately twice
as dence as iron.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:35:43 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

Actually since no battleship has been built since the late 1940s armour
protection is relatively non existant on modern warships. Compare the armour
on say an Iowa class fast battleship with the Sherman tank of the same
period.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:41:22 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" 
> > I'm working on some notes on the Emperors List, trying to work out who
> > these weenies are.
> 
> You got the Library Data LBBs?  There's an Emperor's List in one of
thm...

That's what I'm working with.  The trouble is there's next to no detail
about who they all are.  I kind of want to know *why* they would risk
everything to sit in a chair, however comfy, whose last 6 occupants have
ended up as grease-stains.

I think there were vaguely coherent factions, at least initially.  I
suspect there were 'Plankwellists', Moot-supporters, moderates (like
Arbellatra), and of course bucketloads of pure and simple opportunists. 
I'm trying to put the names we have into some kind of vague framework like
this.

BTW, that source you were using the other day - could it have been the
articles on IRIS in Challenge, around about issues 40-50?  I hated IRIS, so
I have never paid much attention to the articles, but there could have been
some mention of the Civil War in the history bits of the article.  I think
IRIS was set up after the Civil War, to make sure it didn't happen again. 
Was that what you were thinking about?

Anyway, I've written a very nebulous outline for a generic Civil War
campaign, that could also work for the Rebellion:

Before 'Subsector X' was integrated into the Imperium, it was dominated by
two Pocket Empires.  When it was absorbed, the ruling families of the PEs
remained the dominant nobles.  

The head of one family became the Subsector Duke, the head of the Imperial
bureaucracy, and dominant figure in the subsector's representation in the
Moot.  The subsector's Reserve fleet was also traditionally dominated by
this family.

The head of the other family became a Count, responsible for the worlds at
the core of their former PE.  (Irrespective of the formal government types
- - they are ruled by family members.)

The commanders of the local IN regular fleet were, traditionally, drawn
from outside the subsector.

The rivalry between the two noble families simmered throughout the next few
centuries, sometimes becoming furious, sometimes almost passing into
ancient history.  The families even intermarried.  In fact the heads of the
families in the early 600s are cousins, if you feel like it.  But still,
one family has always tended to overshadow the other.

When Olav pulled off his coup, and declared martial law, the local Naval
Admiral replaced the Duke as head of the imperial bureaucracy.  Needless to
say, the Count sniggered a lot as his rival was cut down to size, and
became a Plankwell-supporter, of sorts.  The Duke, on the other hand, was
hopping mad, and sided with the 'Legitimist' faction of Moot supporters
(and of course he was entitled to sit in the Moot..)

After a certain amount of the noble families cutting each other socially, 
the local Admiral gets orders to take the Fleet elsewhere, leaving the
Count in control of the Subsector.  

The PCs are, of course, innocent by-standers when everything hits the fan.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

PS:  Emperor George is exerting a strange fascination on me.  "Which
emperor do you support?"  "Why, George, of course!"  Shame there was no
acknowledged emperor called Bruce.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:48:28 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

At 22:15 08/07/1999 +0930, Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au> wrote:
>Greetings!
>
>I was bored around 0200 this morning, so I decided to clean up some of my 
>mailboxes.  I got carried away...  Around 17 hours later I have a bit 
>over 157 MB of uncompressed TML Digests, neatly sorted by volume and 
>issue, on my Mac's hard disk.

<snip>

>Once I have all the missing pieces, I'm going to run a few filters over 
>the lot and clean out any garbage, like requests to unsubscribe, bounced 
>mail messages, autoresponders, gratuitous headers and footers, and 
>so-forth.  I reckon I can get the whole lot, the last five years, down to 
>less than 65 MB (compressed).  Anyone got 65 MB of space free on a 
>Traveller-centric FTP site with big pipes?

I'd have thought 157MB of uncompressed tML, when cleaned up and compressed
would be less than 65MB.

Are you going to remove all the quoted material as part of the cleanup?

Phil

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:16:17 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

Date sent:      	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:50:04 +1100
From:           	Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>

> I think we have found the problem, people.

The problem stems from the nature of VE2. In FFS you get a certain type
of armour at a certain TL, where as in VE2 you get a certain type of
armour at a TL and then it gets better every TL after it is introduced. Thus
in GURPS Adv Laminates are introduced at GTL7 and just keep getting
better. Thus under GURPS, Bonded Superdense will never be as good
as adv laminates. And yes I agree, it is a problem that changes the nature
of the game.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:20:02 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Reactive armor

Jory Earl wrote (in Re: Armour Limits):

> Reactive armor, blocks of explosive placed on the tank to prevent the
> plasma jet of a HEAT round from forming.

	(I don't know whether there is explosive-only reactive armor, 
	since all reactive panels I have seen or read about were metal 
	panels backed with explosive charge.)

	The shaped charge of HEAT warhead produces high-velocity jet of 
	superplastic metal which flows like a thick liquid for a short 
	time. Reactive armor attempts to disrupt the formation of this 
	penetrator by pushing the warhead away from the target. While 
	the superplastic penetrator acts as liquid, it is still 
	relatively cool (not thermally molten). Many authors have 
	mistaken the superplastic effect as thermal effect, probably 
	because the abbreviation "HEAT - High Explosive Anti Tank" can 
	be considered to be referring to a thermal effects. Some authors 
	prefer the term "HEAP - High Explosive Armor Piercing", but even 
	this has problems since "AP" sometimes refers to "Anti 
	Personnel".
	
	When a reactive armor is activated, the explosion pushes the 
	armor panel (and the HEAT warhead which has struck the panel) 
	away from the hull. If this happens fast enough, the warhead is 
	removed from the hull before the warhead has generated the 
	superplastic penetrator. Half-formed penetrator may still have
	penetrated deep into the hull before reactive armor interrupts
	the action.

> It's not dangerous to exposed troops near the vehicle, since there's no
> fragmentation and the actual explosion is fairly small.

	(The previous statement might be true for explosive-only
	reactive armor, but I still could not find any references.)

	Activated reactive panels may be very dangerous to unprotected 
	troopers nearby. The panels are quite heavy, and the explosion 
	pushes them off with high initial velocity (in order to push the 
	HEAT warhead quickly off the hull). The separated panel turns 
	into non-aerodynamic projectile which loses velocity fast but 
	is very unpredictable. Activated reactive panels are sometimes 
	called as "cannon-fired manhole covers".

	An exploding HEAT warhead is dangerous to troopers near the 
	target vehicles whether of not the armor is penetrated or 
	reactive armor is used. When the shaped charge forms the 
	superplastic penetrator, the explosion also breaks the outer 
	shell of warhead into a cloud of fragments which may affect
	any secondary targets outside of the main target.

	Reactive armor panels can sometimes be triggered with heavy 	
	bullets (14.5 mm KPV has done the trick). Some modern anti-armor 
	warheads contain precursor charges ("ticklers") which attempt
	to activate the reactive panels so that the main warhead may
	strike unprotected armor. 

- -- 
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:44:55 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Speaking of Ancients...

> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I know
> Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't ever remember
> seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?

Sorry, the architecture in Knightfall is not from the Ancients, but 
from the Primordials... far older than the Ancients.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:48:44 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Droyne & The Ancients

From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> Some other "Who are the Ancients?" theories that I have seen include
> the Archons theory (Humaniti are the decendants of the Ancients), and
> the Geonee theory (the Geonee *are* the Ancients). I'm sure we here on
> the TML can come up with a few more. Like, say, the Hivers were the
> Ancients...

<Geonee mode>
Hrumpf. Everybody knows that we Geonee are the Old Ones. The fact 
that those pesky Droyne are everywhere is just an evidence that *we* 
geneered them from our Selweeda, those that you humans call Chirpers.
</Geonee mode>

Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee Online sourcebook now at
http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~a4411may/trav

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:46:07 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne &amp; The Ancients

I've always assumed that (1) the Imperium knows more about the nature of the
Ancients than the general public and (2) individuals who make the connection
sometimes "disappear" if they start to draw too much of an audience.  Its
easy to come up with reasons for the government to keep the connection a
secret... but what compelling reasons would they have to make the
information public?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:09:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: 'Sane' Battledress

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>

This is a great design!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not only that, but a great positive result from the recent Battledress
debate/flamewar.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:34:42 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : The War Against the Chtorr

Leonard Erickson writes:
"There's also the factor that in the attempt to "Chtorr-form" 
Earth, you have to assume that the unseen aliens behind it 
have gathered specimens and possibly even set up sample terran 
ecologies somewhere. Thus, they can test organisms before 
introducing them on Earth.

So when they "dump" an organism on Earth, they've already 
determined that it's going to be one that walks all over the 
local competition."

	With an intelligence behind the invasion, one with
	advanced understanding of biology and detailed knowledge
	of Terran life, I could definitely imagine such a
	situation. Some (relatively) simple manipulations might
	at least give the invaders resistence to Terran diseases
	(to avoid the fate of Wells' Martians). Even if some of 
	the invaders fail, they can be replaced.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:28:05 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

Jetrock wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There are a couple of caveats to the idea that snub pistols MUST penetrate
battledress: they couldn't in STRIKER, and I don't think they could in
SNAPSHOT or AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING. I assume that STRIKER, SNAPSHOT and
AHL play a part in CT "canon" and they were used as the basis for
MegaTraveller combat (which also featured battledress that bounced snub
pistol rounds.) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
A snub pistol, by itself, won't crack Battledress. With HEAP rounds,
the snub pistol in AHL became (at least in the scenarios we played
out) one of the most common causes of death to a Battledress troopie.

This was because they were so much more common than heavier
weapons, and they could fire in more situations than energy weapons
or support weapons could, and yes, they could crack the shell.

Remember that AHL and Snapshot are designed as limited-purpose
rulesets. That Snub Pistol HEAP round that kills a BD Marine
in the corridors of the _Bard Endeavor_ (at point-blank range) would
probably be a minor nuisance at normal combat engagement ranges.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:41:07 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

Jory Earl wrote:

>What about that "active" armor the U.S. Army was experimenting with? 
>The stuff on tank hulls that was actually shape charges designed to
>detonate against hostile fire?  To my understanding this would be really
>stupid (unless I am missing something here).  Don't tanks typically use
>infantry in a localized support role?  So if I wanted to kill a bunch of
>U.S. soldiers, I'd aim at the tank's active armor and watch it wipe out
>the troops.
>
>If this question is stupid, then forgive me.  I live a sheltered life. 
>:)

It's called ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour), and it's old hat.
Basically, you cover the hull in little boxes of explosives, which are
triggered by an incoming round. The versions that are commonplace now
don't help much against KE rounds like APFSDS (armour-piercing fin
stabilised discarding sabot)- the main anti-tank rounds; but they are
great against CE rounds like HEAT (High explosive anti-tank).

Russia has a new type of ERA, called Kontact-5, which is good against
APFSDS too - in fact, the min gun of an M1A2 won't penetrate it.

And while combined arms is the name of the game, you don't want the
infantry to be right on top of the tank...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:44:12 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Walter Smith wrote:
>Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>In combat, armour is very much down the list...
>
>1. Don't get detected.
>2. If you must be detected, don't get localised.
>3. If you must be localised, don't be shot at.
>4. If you must be shot at, don't be hit.
>5. If you must be hit, don't be damaged.
>6. If you must be damaged, don't be destroyed.
>
>As you can see, armour helps in cases (5) and (6).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The "Armour" Doug & others are talking about often includes sensors, 
>ECM/ECCM, point defense, often integral flight capabilities.

Yes, understood. However, the main argument seems to be that the
proposed BD is relying an awful lot on physical protection. You could
probably slacken off on the physical protection, install a smaller power
plant (better stealth); and achieve a similar level of mission
protection for less cost.

>The FGMP is to prevent 3, by burning a big hole in whatever is 
>trying to shoot at you. 

Doesn't firing the FGPM take some time (locking the suit in the firing
position et al?) If so, be prepared to be shot first.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 07:35:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: STRIKER (was Re: Battledress)Re: 

>From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
>Subject: Re: Battledress [long]
...
>pistol rounds.) Of course, I have my own problems with the STRIKER/MT
>penetration & armor values (I never could stomach the idea that cloth
>armor could stop a heavy machinegun--a Ma Deuce vs. the heaviest Kevlar is
>still no contest...

  A TL 6 HMG vs a flak jacket is at +3/+2 to long range (2/r of maximum, 
or 1-1.2 km?), which means that the target is squikked at least 70+% of 
the time. If you use cloth as a proto-CES type thing, then it's only +1/0
(still lays `em out most of the time at effective range, and low morale
troops will lose cohesion under that hammering).

  If you use mods for higher TL HMG ammo then the target really shouldn't 
get in the way at all

  If you're using the Striker system to support CT roleplay then it's
actually sort of worse, as a 12.7 should be doing 4 or 5 dice of damage,
with partial penetrations (7-) doing reduced damage per an old JTAS article.

  So at TL 8 you could have an AP(DU?) round with Pens of 8/6/4 (ROF +3/+2/+1,
IIRC) and D = 4 versus cloth armour of AV 5. At extreme range you're pretty
much counting on low hit probabilities to stay intact, and at closer ranges
the targets are probably just doing something stupid...

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:52:01 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients...

Whoops!!!!  Shoulda' checked my facts.  I've got that book but it's been a
while since I READ it.  Forgot about the Primordials <<sheepish grin>>

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Carlos
> Alos-Ferrer
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 7:45 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...
>
>
> > From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> > Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I know
> > Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't ever remember
> > seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?
>
> Sorry, the architecture in Knightfall is not from the Ancients, but
> from the Primordials... far older than the Ancients.
>
> Carlos Alos-Ferrer
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #837
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 838



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
Re: Armour limits
Re: Traveller mail lists
Tree-Oxen
Re: Tree-Oxen
Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Battledress [long]
Re: Battledress [long]...
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress [lost]
Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant
Ssaybom Exploration Cruiser (GTL12)
101 Starships Index
Re: Armour limits
GT: Battledress - A Modest Proposal
Re: Armour limits
Re: Tree-Oxen
Superconductor Questions
Re: Battledress
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: 101 Starships Index

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:58:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster

Hi all,

Aside from the GT Behind the Claw book, are there any canon references to
Emerald in the Jewell Cluster? Specifically, I'm after maps...

Thanks,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:17:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
>> In FFS2, 0.4 cm of TL15 bonded superdense has an armour factor of about 16.
>
>I already said that advanced laminate armor is 5x stronger than bonded SD.

Can we get this into the GT 2nd Ed Printing as errata and align the design
systems a bit better? Of course, it'd kill the uber-BD that Doug is working
on. Other items of equipment have modified multipliers in the GT book, so
why not the materials types?

It's kind of funny, I actually don't object to the BD Doug is suggesting;
I'd just prefer the systems more in line (and metric, but that's another
story).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:33:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller mail lists

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> writes:
>	PLEASE don't start a separate GT list ... the TNE/CT schism was bad
>enough, and the X-Boat list is now gone and dead. I own absolutely 0
>(zero, nought, nothing) from GURPS, but I still cherish the
>additional viewpoints. And so much Traveller stuff is fairly
>rule/milieu neutral.

I know it's a 'me-too' but please don't start a new GT List. I like the
cosmopolitan air of the current list.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:02:35 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Tree-Oxen

OK, I searched all of my (incomplete) TML archives for Kenji's(?) Tree-Oxen
snippit, but I can't find it.  What planet were they from?  This is very
important for two reasons.  1.I'm putting an inside joke (one of several) on
the cover that involves them.  2.I'm referring to them in a cartoon I drew
to be posted on my site, but again I need the planet ref.

Thx,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:53:22 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> OK, I searched all of my (incomplete) TML archives for Kenji's(?) Tree-Oxen
> snippit, but I can't find it.  What planet were they from?  This is very
> important for two reasons.  1.I'm putting an inside joke (one of several) on
> the cover that involves them.  2.I'm referring to them in a cartoon I drew
> to be posted on my site, but again I need the planet ref.

That was Doug's, and I beleive it was Denebian... But, you'll have to
ask him.

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:52:07 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

Gentlesophonts:

I'm in the process of developing/collating various TML posts and
published material on Imperial law but I've run into an area
which apparently hasn't been addressed.

Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/explain
the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a merchant
cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications of operating
one over the other in terms of Imperial and planetary law?

I'd appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:32:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

At 09:23 PM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Not gearhead bashing, but a plea for recognition that gearheads are a
>minority, albeit a vocal one.  Most gamers in my experience don't have the
>time or inclination.

Which is why I want to include a couple of sets of well designed suits for
the non-gearheads to use without needing to master Vehicles.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:41:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

At 08:26 PM 7/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>...
>>The medieval period before the crossbow.  Most battles between armored
>>knights were decided by who dropped from exhaustion first.  HarnMaster
>>models this period quite well.
>
>  I've never actually seen anyone fall over from exhaustion while playing
>HarnMaster, but I've seen some rout after morale failures. At least now I
>can make sense of why there's so many die rolls to be made in that system...

Last summer we had a combat between our heavily armored Laranian paladin
and an equally armored Priest of Agrik.  After several dozen rounds, both
combatants were too tired to lift their weapons, but neither had sustained
much more than bruises.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:54:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]...

At 02:31 PM 7/9/99 +1000, you wrote:

>> The rest of the book will detail the army, with an emphasis on
>> non-traditional campaigns like playing engineers or medical staff.
>>
>> One more time, if you don't like the way Battledress is presented in
>>GURPS, you are under no obligation to use it in any way, shape or form.  
>>You could easily run a M*A*S*H game where there was very little gunfire at 
>>all.

>Right-oh, so now it's little gunfire or you must have BD?  Do IM's have
>M*A*S*H Units, or is the IN still carrying that tradition for them, meaning
>that players who don't want BD can't play IM's?

Would you like to move to San Francisco?  Since you seem to be so skilled
at putting words in my mouth, I figure I could just let you speak for me
and rest my vocal cords.

What I said was that I was going to spend some space on non-traditional
military campaigns.  I did not say that I wouldn't spend any space on IA
combat units that would be armed with gauss rifles and wearing CES.

>> I guarantee that if _Ground Forces_ gets published with a sub-par set of
>> armor in it, within two weeks someone on this very list will bitch about
>> how it's too weak.  And then post a corrected version.  I want to avoid
>> that by building the best possible suit for inclusion.

>Let them.  No skin of your nose.  You reckon they're not going to pick your
>stuff apart anyway?  It's not even published, and many on this list are
>doing that already.  Only your perfect suit isn't getting picked to pieces
>because it's not perfect, but unrealistically too perfect.  Not to mention
>the "IM's are deployed in certain combat situations without BD" which
>started this thing in the first place, from many posters that you chose to
>ignore.  Sad huh?

If it has my name on it, even if the suits are designed by someone else, it
is skin off my nose.  I take pride in my work.

What started this was my description of the modified disad Combat Paralysis
for troops used to fighting in battledress.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:53:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 01:45 PM 7/9/99 +1000, you wrote:

>> I was commenting on the ability to not get wounded by most enemy fire.  I
>> have to ask, have you ever been shot at?

>And I'm assuming you have been, while on your feet, totally impervious to
>it?  I don't fully understand what century you were fighting in, are you
>from the future where this BD does exist?

No, I was shot at while wearing US army BDUs, which can't stop mosquitos,
let alone hostile fire.  I have also been shot at while wearing a t-shirt
and jeans.  Both of these events made me wish that I could be invulnerable
to fire.

>No I have never been fired upon, but I'm sure no-one in this century, as a
>foot soldier has had 90% protection from opposing infantry fire while only
>wearing body armour.

That's because we don't have the technology.  The Imperium does have that
technology.

>Otherwise, what my real-life experiences and your fantasy (BD in a perfect
>universe) ones have to do with it, I am not sure?

This sentence makes no sense.

>However, unless someone has posted in total agreeance with you, you have
>simply repeated your statement that "No, this is as *I* want it" (not those
>same words, I am paraphrasing), so why ask?

If I post two messages, with headers, where I agree with other's ideas,
will you agree to pay me $50,000?

>> You say that GT Battledress is too tough, I ask (over and over again) if
>> you'd trust a bullet proof vest that fails one time in ten.  Well?

>Well, getting away from your Anime/comic concept, back to real life, I would
>have no other choice as there is no such thing to my knowledge, that will
>give me, as an infantry/assault trooper, 90% protection from enemy infantry
>when I am on the ground in that capacity.

I hate anime, and don't read comics.  In the "real World", there is no FTL
drive, aliens descended from wolves, or star-spanning empires.  Perhaps you
should remember that this is a science-fiction RPG, not a modern day RPG.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:57:19 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [lost]

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> So far, it's been a few people *vehemently* opposed, a few people
> extremely supportive, and the vast majority either lukewarm or silent on
> the matter.

How about hopelessly confused and out of their depth?
Thats me.

So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
Virus . . .

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

>----------
>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>> Subject: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
>> Date: Thursday, 08 July, 1999 10:59 AM
>>
>> >As an example, there has been a discussion on Pyramid about the
>appropriate
>> >levels of armor for warships.  The consensus is that armor protection
>> >should be deliberately constrained to avoid creating unstoppable
>> >juggernauts.  The ability to exclude median damage from bay weapons at
>half
>> >damage range was considered sufficient, with turrets having much less
>> >armor.  This last was adopted specifically to replicate the High Guard
>> >mechanic of having turrets vulnerable even in heavily armored designs.
>> >
>> >Tom Schoene
>>
>> Hm, but did we ever settle on a handwave for that, other than 'game
>balance'?
>
>I forget, because I wasn't in a position to contribute, just read the
>results.  I'd be more than happy to settle on some sort of manufacturing
>technology limitations (can't make hyperdense armor plate thicker than x
>cm, for example)  This worked for real-world battleships in the 20th
>century.
>
>> I suspect that we could downgrade battledress just by deciding that, in
>the
>> Traveller universe, bonded superdense (ie. 'expensive metal' in GT terms)
>> is the best armour there is. This would make an acceptable reason for the
>> 'flaws' in BD protection.
>
>Too late for that, because GT main book battle dress uses advanced laminate
>armor.  However, you could rule that TL10-12 advanced laminate and
>composite are only available with DR x (maybe 300 or TL*3) because of
>manufacturing difficulties or some such.  This would explain why warships
>don't often use these armors, even though it might be worthwhile. I could
>save a lot of weight by switching to composite in a heavy cruiser and the
>cost isn't that bad, but I don't think the result makes much sense or much
>fun, so I don't do it.

This sounds like the TL limits for lasers we ended up with in TNE. I could
live with that.

OTOH, could you design the GT main book battle armour without advanced
laminate? Would it have close to the same performance?


>> What's our handwave for lower turret armour?
>> Personally, I like the idea
>> of a maximum mass, with heavier turrets requiring more motors and
>suffering
>> 'to hit' penalties, but I'm not good enough with VE2 to muck that up on
>my
>> own.
>
>That works pretty well. Imperial Bureaucracy was another good option.
>Personally, I don't care much. "Because it's more fun that way" as usually
>good enough for CT, why shouldn't it work for GT too?

The problem with "appeals to bureaucracy" is that if a rule can be
min-maxed there are those who will do so, and sooner or later one of their
designs will see print (editors can't catch every canon-buster). I'd rather
see the limits clearly laid out.


>As for Ve2, GT ship design uses only a subset of Ve2 rules anyway. (no
>forcefields, hyperdrives, or cyberlinks, for example)  I don't see the need
>to make an appeal to Ve2 for every design decision.

Exactly: a subset. Whatever we come up with should be compatible with VE2,
because that's the system GT uses. Adding a limitation to VE2 (in the GT
universe) is a lot easier than extending it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>>What's our handwave for lower turret armour?  Personally, I like the idea
>>of a maximum mass, with heavier turrets requiring more motors and suffering
>>'to hit' penalties, but I'm not good enough with VE2 to muck that up on my
>>own.
>
>GURPS Vehicles doesn't explicitly address drive motors as a fuction of
>turret mass. I believe this is mostly to avoid another interative design
>step, but it is also a product of the zero-volume armor that VE2 uses.
>Turrets aren't rated for traverse speed anyway, so there would be no game
>effect.
>
>If pressed, I will probably use this handwave -- if nothing else, it
>prevents abuse of simplifications in the design system. As it stands,
>turrets with the maximum amount of armor allowed in the guidelines can have
>up to 20 stons of armor (500 lb/sf), which should be plenty.

Hm. What weapons would require really fast traverse times? Point defense
lasers. How much more complicated would it make things to set an upper mass
limit on PD turrets?

And if I have my entire ship armoured to 10 000, will a missile worry me
anyway?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant

>-----Original Message-----
>From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au <dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
>Date: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:31 PM
>Subject: Battle Thong-12 and rant
>
>
>>Good God! I just cant wait for the gearheads to mull over this one!
>>
>>"is it Super Dense or Bonded Laminates g string?"
>
>
>Would that be fair or good streamlining?

That depends on whether you install the optional SayBOOM PMPG[1] :-)


[1] PMPG = Pelvic-Mounmted Plasma Gun, designed to fire through your centre
of mass to better control recoil.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Ssaybom Exploration Cruiser (GTL12)

Ssaybom Exploration Cruiser (GTL12)

One of the largest Droyne ships ever seen, the Ssaybom is an odd
combination of explorer and warship first observed in the Five Sisters
subsector in 1119. Imperial analysts are baffled by the apparent
confounding of two distinct functions, yet the Droyne have turned aside all
questions.

Why does a warship need such extensive research facilities? Why does a
scoutship need a meson gun? Are the Droyne anticipating attack, and if so
from where? Is the Ssaybom's appearance connected with the disappearance
and reappearance of all Droyne ships in 1118? Why is Muodray personally
interested in the Ssaybom?

Crew: 8 bridge crew, 9 engineers, 20 gunners, 2 medics, 4 auxiliary crew, 5
scientists, 12 troops

5000-ton SL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, 8 Turrets with 3 lasers each, 2 Turrets
with 3 sandcasters each, 4 Particle Beam Bays, Spinal Meson Gun, Meson
Screen (DR4044), Nuclear Damper (25 mile range), Basic stealth, Basic
emission cloaking, Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 800 Maneuver, 150
Jump, 1000 Fuel, 5 Fuel Processors (25.0 hours), 9 Droyne Staterooms,
Bunkroom (16 personnel), 10 Utility, Spacedock (2 Launchs), Sickbay, Lab
Module, Probe Module, Survey Module, 111 cargo

Communicators: Radio 5 million miles, Laser 10 million miles, Meson 0.1
million miles
Sensors: PESA 100000 miles, AESA 200000 miles, Radscanner 4000 miles
24 405-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 5dx100(2), 1/2D Rng 26022 miles, MxRng
78068 miles, FP 7
4 Particle Beam Bays: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 6dx1500, Rng 14630 miles, MxRng
43890 miles, FP 63
Spinal Meson Gun: Exp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000(!), Rng 48800 miles, MxRng
146400 miles, FP 4243
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 34985.6 tons, LMass 35612.7 tons, Cost MCr 2209.3, HP 216000
Performance: Accel 2.2 G (2.3 G empty, 2.1 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air Speed
6455 mph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: 101 Starships Index

While I'm revising, are there any changes people would like to see in the
index to 101 Starships? Different organization? More cross-references?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:
> 
> The problem stems from the nature of VE2. In FFS you get a certain type
> of armour at a certain TL, where as in VE2 you get a certain type of
> armour at a TL and then it gets better every TL after it is introduced.
> Thus in GURPS Adv Laminates are introduced at GTL7 and just keep getting
> better. Thus under GURPS, Bonded Superdense will never be as good
> as adv laminates. And yes I agree, it is a problem that changes the nature
> of the game.

Actually, this is just a naming convention -- 'advanced laminate' just means
'advanced armor which is doubled against shaped charges'.  At TL 7 this is
laminate armor.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:16:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: GT: Battledress - A Modest Proposal

How about a GT supplement for just Battledress?

Gurps Traveller: Battledress
by The TML

144 pages:
3 pages of inconsistent battledress designs
1 page of battledress thong
10 pages of Gurps tech vs. Trav tech
    Half, Gurp tech must be limited in Trav.
    Half, everything in Gurps is available
90 pages of back-handed insults, veiled threats,
bitching, moaning, and kvetching (vilani for whining).

Its time to move this thread to "closure".  At least with
regard to the rising temperature.

Mr. Jackson's post "Sane Battledress" is a very positive
move in this direction.

Just a voice from the bleachers, but here is my wishlist for
the thread:

1) A discussion about Gurps Vehicles as a Battledress
design system, focussing on whether _all_ Gurps technology,
specifically advanced laminates, are appropriate for the GT
universe. Keeping in mind that limiting Gurps tech for the
GT universe began in the first book, GT. (This idea
originally suggested by Maj. Thrash.).

2) Designing more "Sane" battledress, as Mr. Jackson
has already done.

3) Deconstructing currently published battledress designs
(as well as any other vehicle which may need it), with
an eye towards 'fixing' them for errata.  Some of this
has already taken place, and I welcome it, as well as
the little valuable tidbits, such as the one about a BD
wearer in a flightpack is a juicy target.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:20:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

SD Mooney writes:
> Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
> >> In FFS2, 0.4 cm of TL15 bonded superdense has an armour factor of about
> >> 16. 
> >
> >I already said that advanced laminate armor is 5x stronger than bonded SD.
> 
> Can we get this into the GT 2nd Ed Printing as errata and align the design
> systems a bit better? Of course, it'd kill the uber-BD that Doug is working
> on. Other items of equipment have modified multipliers in the GT book, so
> why not the materials types?

Unfortunately, this would invalidate quite a bit of published work.  Personally,
I would have just changed the tech progression so that TTL 15 is early GTL-11 
in which case, being an 'early' TL, many systems available at that TL,
including advanced armor, wouldn't be available.  This fixed problems with
all _kinds_ of ultratech listed in GURPS).  This would make the best armor
at that TL roughly twice as strong as bonded SD.  It's way too late to make
that change, though.

Of course, then there might be complaints about how primitive GT considers
traveller technology -- but by GURPS standards, the best traveller
technology _is_ pretty primitive.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:20:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> OK, I searched all of my (incomplete) TML archives for Kenji's(?) Tree-Oxen
> snippit, but I can't find it.  What planet were they from?  This is very
> important for two reasons.  1.I'm putting an inside joke (one of several) on
> the cover that involves them.  2.I'm referring to them in a cartoon I drew
> to be posted on my site, but again I need the planet ref.
>
> Thx,
> Jesse

IIRC, it was called a "Denebian Tree Ox".

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:23:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Superconductor Questions

Hi all.  

I've got this idea for an adventure involving a vaccuum flower species
that produces an organic superconductor in its innards.  Several questions
come to mind: 

1. Has anyone given any serious thought to the ecology/biology of vaccuum
flowers?  How realistic is this idea?  It's been mentioned in several CT
sources and I think it's cool, but it seems a little unlikely to me
intuitively.  One thing I considered is that such a thing might evolve on
a world that slowly loses its atmosphere over eons.  After all, all a
plant really needs is energy and a few common elements, right?  How would
transport mechanisms work at extreme temperatures?  Could it use liquid
nitrogen to move nutrients around inside itself if it was at very low
temp?  What could be used at high temp?  What about radiation?  Would they
only appear in shadows and cold worlds?

2. What are the problems involved in a plant producing superconductive
organics?  As I understand it (which isn't very well) the ceramics are
composed of fairly ordinary elements (CHONPS and stuff like
Selenium, Gallium and Chlorine). But I don't know how easy it would be for
an organic process to put these things together in the proper way.

3. What is the state of superconductors in the Imperium?  Do they have
room temp ones?  High temp ones?  Would there be a market for a plant that
produced relatively high-temp superconductive materials? 

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

Matt Clonfero writes:
> >The "Armour" Doug & others are talking about often includes sensors, 
> >ECM/ECCM, point defense, often integral flight capabilities.
> 
> Yes, understood. However, the main argument seems to be that the
> proposed BD is relying an awful lot on physical protection. You could
> probably slacken off on the physical protection, install a smaller power
> plant (better stealth); and achieve a similar level of mission
> protection for less cost.

Armor isn't the big factor; taking my design as an example, only about 10% of
the cost is for armor.  By comparison, 35% of the cost is for stealth and
electronics.

> Doesn't firing the FGPM take some time (locking the suit in the firing
> position et al?) If so, be prepared to be shot first.

Shrug.  Not really.  800 pounds of armor does a fine job of suppressing
recoil. It's about as fast as shooting a rifle.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:42:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Bont wrote:
> 
> > > However, in M0 (T4), the information is being suppressed.  Emperor
> > > Cleon I wants the Ancients to be Human, hence the Archon Theory.
> >
> > I haven't heard of this theory.  Is it your own invention, or from some
> > other source?
> 
> Well, perhaps "suppressed" is the wrong word.  Current theory is
> that the Archons were Human.  It is politically correct to agree with
> this theory as it lends support for Cleon's push to re-establish the
> Imperium.  Any other theory is "professionally" unsound.  See Page
> 74 of the M0 book.
> 

Well, damn spank me and call me a Solomani monkey...I've had that books
since it came out, and I didn't remember that little tidbit.

Really starts to color my opinion of Cleon 1 darker. Also makes me
wonder just how Mad 'Cleon III' was ... maybe the moot just finally
decided that power mad sociopaths weren't needed on the Imperial throne
anymore...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:43:12 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships Index

Robert Prior wrote:

> While I'm revising, are there any changes people would like to see in the
> index to 101 Starships? Different organization? More cross-references?

I'm behind on the current version so I'm not sure if you've done this
or not, but as I suggested a ways back, and actually tried to organize,
sorting them by government and/or manufacturer would be great.

:-)

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #838
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 839



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Battledress
Re: Tree-Oxen
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Re: Battledress [long]
RE: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)
Re: Versions
Re: Imperial Marines... (DIGEST 779)
Congreve-class Missile Boat (GTL10)
von Braun-class Missile Boat (GTL11)
Hun-class Light Fighter (GTL11)
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Armour limits
re: Battledress
and now to something completely different
Re:  Speaking of Ancients...
Re: Battledress [lost]
Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Re: Armour limits
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
What Shoots at GT battledress?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:47:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Battledress

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Battledress
...
>A snub pistol, by itself, won't crack Battledress. With HEAP rounds,
>the snub pistol in AHL became (at least in the scenarios we played
>out) one of the most common causes of death to a Battledress troopie.

  In Striker they differentiated between TL D (AV: 10) and TL E+ (AV: 18)
BD and combat armour suits. The snub is useless against the latter :(

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:05:11
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Tree-Oxen

At 09:02 AM 7/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>OK, I searched all of my (incomplete) TML archives for Kenji's(?) Tree-Oxen
>snippit, but I can't find it.  What planet were they from?  This is very
>important for two reasons.  1.I'm putting an inside joke (one of several) on
>the cover that involves them.  2.I'm referring to them in a cartoon I drew
>to be posted on my site, but again I need the planet ref.

The Tree-Oxen come from an example in _At Close Quarters_.  Originally, I
had a Denebian Tree-Ox butting a poor sap named Leroy.  Later in the book,
we met a poisonous vermin named a Guatney.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:49:54 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> Gentlesophonts:
>
> I'm in the process of developing/collating various TML posts and
> published material on Imperial law but I've run into an area
> which apparently hasn't been addressed.
>
> Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/explain
> the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a merchant
> cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications of operating
> one over the other in terms of Imperial and planetary law?
>
> I'd appreciate any feedback.
>
> Thanks!
>
> David

The legal difference?  Zero.  A cruiser is a cruiser is a cruiser.
Mercenaries are legal under imperial law.  Planetary law may
vary.  But if someone on a planet is hiring mercenaries, the
time for legal disputes is pretty much over.  There may be
legal consequences if you lose, of course.


I've got a draft of some general foundations of Imperial Law
here:
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/implaw.htm

Its a bit academic.  Ok, more than a bit.


Would be very interested to see what you collect.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:53:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> 
> Gentlesophonts:
> 
> I'm in the process of developing/collating various TML posts and
> published material on Imperial law but I've run into an area
> which apparently hasn't been addressed.
> 
> Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/explain
> the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a merchant
> cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications of operating
> one over the other in terms of Imperial and planetary law?
> 
> I'd appreciate any feedback.

I'd really say it was a matter of use more than anything else. A
mercenary cruiser would be a ship operated in support of a mercenary
company; ie: transporting troops, their gear, and providing logistic and
combat support once at the destination.

Within the Imperium, I suspect you will need some sort of licensure, and
need to post bonds (above and beyond repatriation bonds) to ensure you
don't just go pirate. Running a merc company cannot be cheap...

A Merchant cruiser is an upgunned, uparmored freighter designed to live
in poorly protected or unprotected (by the IN, that is) regions of
space...basically it's better able to defend itself while runnign from
problems. This is unlikley to require the types of bonding that an
privately owned, overtly military ship, such as a mercenary cruiser
would require.

In practice you could probably use the same _ship_ for both purposes,
though an ideal design would probably be different for each use.

In term of legality, there are probably limits as to _where_ in the
Imperium you can run such a ship without hassles; probably more so than
if you were a registered, bonded mercenary company.

Planetary law is as planetary law does, meaning you can have just about
anything. As a generalization, I'll say most systems probably regulate
ships based on their armor and armament, rather than their stated
purpose. A Happy Fun Ball is a Happy Fun Ball, whether you're moving
mercenaries in staterooms or groats in shipping containers.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:11:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]

Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com> writes:

>There are a couple of caveats to the idea that snub pistols MUST penetrate
>battledress: they couldn't in STRIKER, and I don't think they could in
>SNAPSHOT or AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING. I assume that STRIKER, SNAPSHOT and
>AHL play a part in CT "canon" and they were used as the basis for
>MegaTraveller combat (which also featured battledress that bounced snub
>pistol rounds.)

T4 snub rounds cannot penetrate BD either (5D pen/damage  1D explosive).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:20:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Armour Limits (was: Battledress...)

 "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:

>Superdense armour is density 15 tons per cubit meter or approximately twice
>as dence as iron.

15,000 kg per *cubic* metre. A cubit is something very different....

But I suppose you could *cube-it (metre)* <g>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 10:10:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Versions

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Versions 
...
>I saw HT as the beginning of the end of the Imperium, setting things up for
>the expansion of the most powerful remaining human empire, which would
>slowly annex the rest of the empires remnants until the Solomani Sphere
>became the Solomani oblong. I pictured Deneb and the Ziru Sirkaa surviving
>as independent entities.

  Being a Solomani apologist I can at least understand, but spreading this
sort of pernicious disinformation leads one to assume that you've either
been co-opted by SolSec - or you're an agent.

  The Zhodani Consulate, in addition to being devoted to truth, peace, justice,
harmony*, and the distribution of fluffy bunnies to children everywhere**, is
both larger and more advanced and has fundamentally cooler looking outfits,
which latter is kind of odd when you consider that the Solomani _are_ a bunch
of facists, after all...

 *please report for psychiatric adjustment if you're having trouble with this.

 ** except to Vargr - the ISPCA got really upset after some early incidents...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:43:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines... (DIGEST 779)

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> writes:

>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

>>Wasn't Rambo in the Army?
>>
>><g,d,r>
>
>
>If you were Rambo, you wouldn't have to duck and run ;)

Ahh, but Rambo had a bug between the Real Universe and the Rambo Universe!
The design rules for rocket launchers were changed in the Rambo Universe so
they didn't have a backblast and he could fire them from inside
helicopters. This invalidated the previous canon 'Real Universe'. Debate
continues as to whether the Rambo Universe is an official variant stuck in
the Reagan 80s, or if it has become defacto canon.

Dom :-|

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:16:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Congreve-class Missile Boat (GTL10)

Congreve-class Missile Boat (GTL10)

Desperately outclassed by the forces of the Zira Siirka, the outnumbered
Terrans developed the missile boat, a small craft armed exclusively with
missiles, and deployed it in squadrons capable of overwhelming a Vilani
warship's point defenses.

The present Congreve-class missile boat is a continuation of that
tradition. Armed with a massive missile bay, and with enough armour to
ignore turret weapons at long range, doctrine calls for several squadrons
of missile boats to jump into a system, overwhelm the target with a massive
barrage, and then jump back to their base for resupply.

Crew: 3 bridge crew, 11 engineers, 4 gunners, medic

1200-ton USL Hull, DR 1200, PD 4, 2 Turrets with 3 lasers each, Missile
Bay, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Command Bridge,
Engineering, 587 Maneuver, 36 Jump, 480 Fuel, 3 Fuel Processors (20.0
hours), Stateroom, 2 Bunkrooms (32 personnel), 3 Utility, Sickbay, 20 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
6 360-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 6dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 32720 km, MxRng 98610
km, FP 4
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 6444.9 tonnes, LMass 6535.6 tonnes, Cost MCr 363.2, HP 87150
Performance: Accel 3.3 G (3.3 G empty, 3.1 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:16:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: von Braun-class Missile Boat (GTL11)

von Braun-class Missile Boat (GTL11)

During the Solomani Rim War the Imperial Navy inflicted defeat after defeat
on Solomani forces. Operational analysis indicated that, surprisingly,
missile boats were one of the most cost-effective means the Solomani
possessed of damaging their more technologically advanced enemies.

The von Braun is a typical Solomani design: starkly functional, with little
consideration given to crew comfort. All personnel but the commander share
a common bunkroom. The grav compensators are overloaded at max
acceleration, forcing the crew to remain at their stations without relief.
These savings have bought one of the fastest warships known, with 7G
acceleration, enough fuel for two successive jumps, and a Hun-class light
fighter.

Crew: 3 bridge crew, 6 engineers, 4 gunners, medic, 2 auxiliary crew

1200-ton USL Hull, DR 2500, PD 4, 2 Turrets with 3 lasers each, Missile
Bay, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Command Bridge,
Engineering, 587 Maneuver, 36 Jump, 480 Fuel, 3 Fuel Processors (20.0
hours), Stateroom, Bunkroom (16 personnel), 3 Utility, Vehicle Bay (Hun
Light Fighter), Sickbay, 13.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
6 390-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng 112000
km, FP 5
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 7529.8 tonnes, LMass 7660.5 tonnes, Cost MCr 448.1, HP 87150
Performance: Accel 7.0 G (7.1 G empty, 6.7 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Hun-class Light Fighter (GTL11)

Hun-class Light Fighter (GTL11)

After the Solomani Rim War, the Solomani Navy started development of a new
fighter: faster and more maneuverable than anything that the Imperial Navy
had. The result was the Hun, with over 10G of acceleration at full
throttle.

Crew: pilot, gunner

10-ton USL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Turret with mixed weapons, Basic stealth,
Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 8 Maneuver, no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
2 390-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng 112000
km, FP 5
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 69.5 tonnes, LMass 69.5 tonnes, Cost MCr 7.7, HP 4200
Performance: Accel 10.4 G (10.4 G empty, 10.4 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air
Speed 0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:29:30 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

At 12:09 PM 7/9/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Hm. What weapons would require really fast traverse times? Point defense
>lasers. How much more complicated would it make things to set an upper mass
>limit on PD turrets?
>
>And if I have my entire ship armoured to 10 000, will a missile worry me
>anyway?
>
        If you don't, then it is worth my while to build hell's own
thermonuclear warhead-tipped monster-fast missile with a quarter-meter of
bonded super dense on the snout...  no matter what the cost of the missile,
its cheaper than your ship.  

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:35:55 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

>Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
>>> In FFS2, 0.4 cm of TL15 bonded superdense has an armour factor of about
16.
>>
>>I already said that advanced laminate armor is 5x stronger than bonded SD.

>Can we get this into the GT 2nd Ed Printing as errata and align the design
>systems a bit better? Of course, it'd kill the uber-BD that Doug is working
>on. Other items of equipment have modified multipliers in the GT book, so
>why not the materials types?
>
I think that you're misreading the framwork of the rule. Advanced Laminate
isn't a specific kind of material, like steel or kevlar. The reason it gets
better as TL increases is that the individual materials that the layers are
made out of change. Presupposing some advancement in materials science per
tech level it makes sense that the DR of advance laminate would improve as
TL goes up. I'd say that at higher GTL's, 14 or 15, other kinds of armor
will replace it. As this is beyond any TL in Traveller (Except Ancients
tech) AL is the best armor.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:37:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>A snub pistol, by itself, won't crack Battledress. With HEAP rounds,
>the snub pistol in AHL became (at least in the scenarios we played
>out) one of the most common causes of death to a Battledress troopie.

  In Striker they differentiated between TL D (AV: 10) and TL E+ (AV: 18)
BD and combat armour suits. The snub is useless against the latter :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No problem. We just need a TL E (TL F?) advanced HEAP round for the
snub pistol. :-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:46:31 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: and now to something completely different

Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
 >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
 >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
 >Virus . . .

received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing 
comfortable shoes...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:09:07 -0700
From: "Cliff Linehan" <Cnl@sfamipec.com>
Subject: Re:  Speaking of Ancients...

From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
>Sorry, the architecture in Knightfall is not from the Ancients, but 
>from the Primordials... far older than the Ancients.
>
>Carlos Alos-Ferrer 

Primordials?
I have never heard of them. Could someone give me a quick summary
please.


Clifford Linehan
cnl@sfamipec.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:11:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [lost]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress [lost]


>So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>Virus . . .


passes by a pair of Aslan lesbians playing GURPS Traveller...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:12:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant


>That depends on whether you install the optional SayBOOM PMPG[1] :-)
>
>
>[1] PMPG = Pelvic-Mounmted Plasma Gun, designed to fire through your centre
>of mass to better control recoil.


I'd nearly forgotten about the Pelvic-Mounted Plasma Gun... ;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:27:19 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

>> Gentlesophonts:
>> 
>> I'm in the process of developing/collating various TML posts and
>> published material on Imperial law but I've run into an area
>> which apparently hasn't been addressed.
>> 
>> Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/explain
>> the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a merchant
>> cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications of operating
>> one over the other in terms of Imperial and planetary law?
>> 
>> I'd appreciate any feedback.
>

        Hello!

        Well, I am a Heretic by nature, but I can see somethings would be
pretty equal in this issue.  Firstly, the issue is really armament, not
cargo.  Face it...  take a standard Liner and equip all the turrets with
missiles and load the staterooms with gun-bunnies and it *stops* being a
liner.  It's now a merc ship.
        IMTU, any vessel with more than 30% of its hardpoints equipped with
offensive systems needs a permit (Cr10000 per weapon per year).  More than
60% of the hardpoints equipped with offensive systems, and you're a warship,
no word-games whatsoever.  At which point you get treated like a warship...
So long as you don't annoy the authorities with your warship, the
authorities don't hunt you down with an SDB task group and blow you to
plasma.  Wether or not you are carrying tractor parts, cattle, conducting
exploration or lab experiments, or moving a company of armor, is irrelevant.  
        Speed, armor, defensive screens, range...  none of these, by
definition, do a gun-boat make.  Its the weapons load that tells the tale.
        The ships that fall into that middle 30% are bit more difficult to
classify.  In those cases, the authorities will tend to compare what they
see for themselves (cargo and crew manifests) with what the registration
papers say before they decide wether or not to hassle the captain.  If
everything jives, then there probably aren't any legal ramifications.  If
something looks funny (our gun-bunny liner), then perhaps a customs search,
a health and safety inspection would be in order and then progress upwards
in seriousness depending on the demeanor of the crew and what was uncovered.
        The biggest thing is that there is a lot of shipping in the 3I.
Even my TNEC millieu, in the Core areas around Terra, Alpha Centari and
Sirius make current-day Amsterdam look like an isolated costal village in
terms of traffic.  The man power required to police everything, everywhere
is staggering.  So unless the ship in question is doing something to attract
attention to itself around major worlds, what it does in the back-waters
will be large between it and the Backwater.
        Now, obviously, at said Backwater, the instant a registered Merc
Cruiser drops out of jump, you *know* the planetary defense organization
gets notified and pays attention.  I would wonder if human nature would
prompt more concern at the appearance of an "attack liner" as I describe
above, which isn't *officially* an invasion ship, but could certainly look
like one in a hurry.
        Same idea for a couple of "Trade Assault Cruisers" that both come
out of Jump at the same time...  only a dummy wouldn't wonder if they aren't
carrying something more interesting/ of concern than farm machinery in their
holds.  The same two ships which didn't fit the "warship" catergory probably
wouldn't get a second glance after their transponder data checked out.

        Just some thoughts.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:05:50 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:16:17 +1200
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Armour limits
>
>The problem stems from the nature of VE2. In FFS you get a certain type
>of armour at a certain TL, where as in VE2 you get a certain type of
>armour at a TL and then it gets better every TL after it is introduced. 

That's not quite what's going on in VE2. "Advanced laminate" isn't a
material, it's a relative quality and a construction method. Materials are
introduced as "advanced", then become "expensive" one TL higher, "standard"
the TL after that, and "cheap" three TL's after introduction. It is true,
however, that new materials are always being introduced to fill the
"advanced" category.

This is an extract from the rough draft of GT: Starships. It is based on
some descriptive text about armor that was in GURPS Vehicles, 1st Ed, but
was cut from 2d Ed (probably to save space). This is the raw GURPS version
and has not been compared or converted to Traveller terminology, so don't
tell me there is no "bonded superdense" -- I know that.

					TL
ARMOR				ADV	EXP	STD	CHEAP 	WEIGHT

Mild Steel			5	6	7	8	0.5
Steel or Aluminum		6	7	8	9	0.4
Titanium or Boron		7	8	9	10	0.25
Durasteel			8	9	10	11	0.15
Improved Durasteel		9	10	11	12	0.1
"Nanocrystal"			10	11	12	13	0.06
Improved Nanocrystal 		11	12	13	--	0.04
Hyperdense 			12	13	--	--	0.025

Cost (Cr/lb)			20	6	2	1

Tech Level: The TL shown on the table is the TL at which each type of armor
is considered Advanced, Expensive, Standard, or Cheap, respectively.

Weight: Multiply the figure in the table by total surface area and desired
DR to get total weight of armor.

Cost: Multiply cost factor for material and TL by total weight to get cost.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:08:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> >
> > Gentlesophonts:
> >
> > I'm in the process of developing/collating various TML posts and
> > published material on Imperial law but I've run into an area
> > which apparently hasn't been addressed.
> >
> > Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/explain
> > the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a merchant
> > cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications of operating
> > one over the other in terms of Imperial and planetary law?
> >
> > I'd appreciate any feedback.
> 
> I'd really say it was a matter of use more than anything else. A
> mercenary cruiser would be a ship operated in support of a mercenary
> company; ie: transporting troops, their gear, and providing logistic and
> combat support once at the destination.

Also, an armed paramilitary or military ship, which is the primary
combat asset-for-hire of a registered mercenary organization.
> 
> Within the Imperium, I suspect you will need some sort of licensure, and
> need to post bonds (above and beyond repatriation bonds) to ensure you
> don't just go pirate. Running a merc company cannot be cheap...
> 
<<snips Bruce's comments on merchant cruisers>>

The term "merchant cruiser" seems to derive from the "armed merchant
cruisers" of World Wars I and II.  These were large merchant vessels
(usually liners, due to their high speed), requisitioned by a
government, armed, and commissioned as auxiliary warships.  Their
primary role in the Royal Navy was as convoy escorts, protecting against
surface raiding vessels.  Examples would be HM Ships JERVIS BAY amd
RAWALPINDI, both of which were sunk by German capital ships during World
War II.  Note that these ships flew the White Ensign (indicating a
warship of the Royal Navy).  Other navies, such as the German navy,
employed such vessels as commerce raiders.  Examples include ATLANTIS
and KORMORAN (the latter ship fought the light cruiser HMAS SYDNEY; both
ships were sunk in the battle).

As such, merchant cruisers would legally be indistinguishable from other
warships.

See the following URL for a description of HMS JERVIS BAY:

http://www.saintjohn.nbcc.nb.ca/~HeritageSaintJohn/JervisBay/jervisbaymon2.htm#Rest

And for information on German merchant cruisers in World War II:

http://www.cnd.net/~kais/navy/raiders.htm

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:21:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: What Shoots at GT battledress?

What might shoot at traveller marines?  Lots of things...but Zhodani 
Warbots are one of the more problematic ones.  This is a relatively
expensive version, but otherwise rather typical.  This design basically
resembles a beachball with a gun sticking out, and is TL 11.

*Comment: this is basically an 'armored beachball from hell' variant, of
course.  Like most such designs, it generally beats a battlesuit of comparable
cost and weight.  Due to the limited weapon design, it can't shoot at anything
which isn't in front of it -- but gravetic vehicles can face in any direction
fairly easily, so...*

Body and Subassemblies: all systems are located in body.
Drivetrain: 1,000 lb vector reactionless thruster (50 kW, Hp 4), 2,000
    lb contragravity (2 kW, Hp 2)
Weapons: 14 MJ fusion gun (Hp 8) and coaxial VRF gauss gun (HP 4); both
    have full weapon stabilization.  Storage for 10,000 rounds 4mm.
Instruments and Electronics: medium tightbeam radio w/scrambler (Hp 1),
    short range lasercomm (Hp 1), PESA/20 (Hp 2, Scan 19), Radscanner/10
    (Hp 1, Scan 17), Surveillance Sound Sensor-10 (HP 1), inertial navigation
    system (Hp 2), hardened DX+3 genius small robot brain(C=6) (HP 2)
Software: targeting-5, gunner/VRF@DX+2, gunner/fusion@DX+2,electronics/sensors
    @IQ+4,various others
Power: 55 kW NPU powers all systems except weaponry.  2 rE cells have enough
    power for 30 fusion gun shots and any number of VRF shots.
Spaces: 1.24 cf access space, 0.073 cf waste space.
Volumes: 6 cf body.  Areas: 20 sf body.
Frame: very heavy, robotic.
Armor: DR 1,000 TL 11 advanced laminate armor
Surface Features: radical stealth (-14 sig), radical emissions cloaking
    (-14 sig), basic sound suppression (-70 dB), instant chameleon,
    thermal-superconducting surface.
Statistics: weight 932 unloaded, 953 loaded, $320,000.  ST 0/20, DX 14, IQ 9,
    HT 12/120.
Performance: no ground performance.  Can fly, thrust 1,000 lb, drag 20,
    aMax 600, aAcc 20 mph, aMR 6, aDec 24 mph.  Space performance 1 G.
Weaponry: SS includes -9 for computer gunner.
Weapon         Malf Type  Damage SS Acc 1/2D  Max  Wt RoF Shot Cost LC TL
4mm VRF gauss  Ver. Cr.   18d(2) 11  15 2300 9200  29 100* var 13K  0  10
ZH-14 fusion   Ver. Exp.   6dx50 11  19 2100 6300  72 1/2 32/E 32k  0  11

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #839
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 840



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Armour Limits
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Imperial Marines... (DIGEST 779)
Re: 101 Starships Index
Speaking of Ancients...
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Ssaybom Exploration Cruiser (GTL12)
Re: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
Re: and now to something completely different 
Re: 101 Starships Index
Technology Marches On..
Re: Versions
More things that shoot at battledress
Re: GT Skill Equivalence
Re: Versions 
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: GT Skill Equivalence
Rumor - Sony doing Traveller
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Re: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
Re: Rumor - Sony doing Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:27:26 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:11 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: Armour Limits
>
>Hm. What weapons would require really fast traverse times? Point defense
>lasers. How much more complicated would it make things to set an upper mass
>limit on PD turrets?

Handwaves I'm okay with -- they don't create rules, they rationalize them.
I'm considerably more reluctant to implement a change to the rules without
working through the implications, especially the hidden ones. Look at the
"3 cradles = 1 turret" rule: I'm already being told that my example LASH
freighter in FT is an illegal design because that rule appears in Star
Mercs, and I ported the damn cradles in from VE2 myself. I'm going to have
to either modify ("elaborate") the rule for GT: Starships, figure out an
interpretation that covers all examples to date, or errata the design --
all because someone published a new rule without checking for consequences.

>And if I have my entire ship armoured to 10 000, will a missile worry me
>anyway?

If it's going fast enough when it hits...

<grin>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:08:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>  >Virus . . .
>
> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
> comfortable shoes...

And said, "G'day, Sheilas," while he loaded his shoulder-fired
Penguin launcher.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:48:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines... (DIGEST 779)

At 05:43 PM 7/9/99 +0100, you wrote:

>>>Wasn't Rambo in the Army?
>>>
>>><g,d,r>

>Ahh, but Rambo had a bug between the Real Universe and the Rambo Universe!
>The design rules for rocket launchers were changed in the Rambo Universe so
>they didn't have a backblast and he could fire them from inside
>helicopters. This invalidated the previous canon 'Real Universe'. Debate
>continues as to whether the Rambo Universe is an official variant stuck in
>the Reagan 80s, or if it has become defacto canon.

Just like to point out that in the US Infantry, Rambo occupies a spot just
below John Wayne in disgust.

Wearing a helmet without the chin strap fashioned is "John Wayne", and is bad.

Standing exposed with a M-60 on a ridge is "Rambo", and is *really* bad...
- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:09:49 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: 101 Starships Index

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:42:40 -0400 (EDT), Robert Prior
<robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>While I'm revising, are there any changes people would like to see in the
>index to 101 Starships? Different organization? More cross-references?

Major expansion.  In addition to the current alphabetical index,
I think an index by mission (warships [or possibly different
classes of warship], military transports, civilian passenger
transports, tramp traders, civilian cargo transports, etc.) would
be a good idea, and possibly an index by national origin (e.g.,
Imperial, Droyne, Solomani, Zhodani, etc.).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:17:57 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Speaking of Ancients...

> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> Subject: Speaking of Ancients...
> 
> Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I know
> Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't ever remember
> seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?
> 

Check Adventure 12:  Secret of the Ancients.  It seems to me that it has
some illustrations, including one of the ancient ship that's full of
teleportation rings.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:20:10 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>

> By the say, "Droyne & the Ancients" sounds like a good name for a rock
> band, doesn't it?

Aren't they usually the warm-up band for Veedback?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:38:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> Subject: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Aside from the GT Behind the Claw book, are there any canon references to
> Emerald in the Jewell Cluster? Specifically, I'm after maps..

Either The Spinward Marches Campaign or Alien Adventures has an
adventure set on Emerald, involving a squad of lost Zhodani troopers who
don't know that the war is over. I don't remember maps; maybe, maybe
not.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:04:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

> I'm in the process of developing/collating various TML posts and
> published material on Imperial law but I've run into an area
> which apparently hasn't been addressed.

I posted a lot about this a few years ago (1994 or 1995, I think).  I
still have to un-archive it, but I'll send it to you (and Bloo) as soon
as I do.  On the other hand, you may find those posts faster than I.

> Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/explain
> the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a merchant
> cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications of operating
> one over the other in terms of Imperial and planetary law?

I'm not sure what you're talking about.  "Merchant", a civilian term,
doesn't go with "cruiser", a naval ship type.  

Imperial merchant ships are owned by private persons or entities and are
engaged in trade.  They are registered at some world, where they can be
subject to legal process.  They are also regulated as to safety and
related matters by some Imperial agency.  They are subject to local laws
and starport regulations.  

Non-Imperial merchant ships may enter Imperial star systems pursuant to
the terms of their entry permits and engage in trade in accordance with
the applicable treaty between their home state and the Imperium, if such
a treaty exists.  Otherwise, they can engage in whatever trade the
Imperial member state will permit.  Entry permits may be issued in
advance from Imperial consulates or upon entry into an Imperial border
world's star system.  

Mercenary cruisers:  I assume "merc" means "mercenary."  "Cruiser"
usually means a mid-sized naval ship able to engage in warfare on its
own, i.e., without constant logistical and combat support.  Large
mercenary units would like to be able to operate with substantial
independence, so they would characterize their ships as "cruisers". 
These again are privately-owned ships.  They are engaged in a business
that is not unlawful under Imperial law, although it might be under the
laws of various member states.  Such ships must be registered and
regulated like any other privately-owned vessels, and are subject to
local laws and starport regulations.  When invited to an Imperial member
state, the inviting state typically waives any requirement that
starships be restricted to the starport.  

Mercenary ships engaged in anti-shipping activity run afoul of the
Imperial piracy laws unless they are registered combatant vessels in a
declared trade war.  (See The Traveller Book, or maybe The Traveller
Adventure.)  (Similarly, mercenary troops engaged in ground operations
may be committing various crimes such as breach of the peace, murder,
and mayhem, absent immunity through treaties or conventions among the
combatants.)

The Imperial Navy generally frowns on private ownership of large
warships capable of meaningful engagements with the Navy.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:10:22 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Ssaybom Exploration Cruiser (GTL12)

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
 
> One of the largest Droyne ships ever seen, the Ssaybom is an odd
> combination of explorer and warship first observed in the Five Sisters
> subsector in 1119. Imperial analysts are baffled by the apparent
> confounding of two distinct functions, yet the Droyne have turned aside all
> questions.

The reason is logical:  This ship is supposed to go where no Droyne has
gone before.  Haven't Imperial analysts seen holovids of the ancient
Terran entertainment called "Star Trek", in which the most heavily armed
ships of the fleet are also the centers of scientific research and
exploration?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:33:55 PDT
From: "Michael Bitrick" <mbitrick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>To: traveller@mpgn.com, suomifinn@hotmail.com, valeria27@yahoo.com
>Subject: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
>Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:38:47 -0700
>
> > From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> > Subject: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Aside from the GT Behind the Claw book, are there any canon references 
>to
> > Emerald in the Jewell Cluster? Specifically, I'm after maps..
>
>Either The Spinward Marches Campaign or Alien Adventures has an
>adventure set on Emerald, involving a squad of lost Zhodani troopers who
>don't know that the war is over. I don't remember maps; maybe, maybe
>not.
>
>--Glenn
>
>
>
Glenn is referring to the "Last Patrol" adventure in the Alien Realms Book.  
Unfortunately, no maps of Emerald are included in the adventure.

Mike B
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:48:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different 

> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>  >Virus . . .
> 
> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing 
> comfortable shoes...

ER, yeah, that's right, can't call 'em 'lesbians' anymore...

Bruce, er, *Keven*

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:55:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 101 Starships Index

>Robert Prior wrote:
>
>> While I'm revising, are there any changes people would like to see in the
>> index to 101 Starships? Different organization? More cross-references?
>
>I'm behind on the current version so I'm not sure if you've done this
>or not, but as I suggested a ways back, and actually tried to organize,
>sorting them by government and/or manufacturer would be great.
>
>Bloo

So far I have the following sections in the index:

Background: subsections like "people" (Eneri the Eighth), "events" (the
Great Scone Caper), "corporations", "shipyards" (this would be
manufacturer), "organizations" (Imperial Naval Intelligence)

Naval Forces: subsections by government (Third Imperium, Solomani
Confederation)

Ships: subsections by type of ship (destroyers, cruisers, freighters...)
with a subsection for "auxiliaries" so you can see which ships usually
carry a Helm-class fighter

I was thinking of having a "Where Encountered" section as well, and
possibly one my time period, but thought that this would grow fairly large
fairly quickly. I could do it if it would be useful, though.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:01:01 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Technology Marches On..

For all you optics afficionados, ScienceDaily has posted a
story about a _lenseless_ 3D camera.

Details can be found at:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990709083019.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 16:09:57 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

On 07/08/99 at 02:23 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> BTW, here's an aside to my players...  I've been wondering gang,
>> what version of Traveller am *I* running in the Akus Moby game?
>> Yeah, I know "None of the above" sums it up, but what version does
>> it feel most like?

>I'd have to say, TNE with some aftermarket enhancements.

You are probably right from the gear aspect, but I've used modified
FUDGE and T4 for the task resolution at different times.  I suspect
I'll migrate toward TNE more and more...it's growing on me.  No,
it's *not* a fungus! ;-J

Bruce Johnson added...

>You know, Eris, it doesn't feel like _any_ version, per se. The
>background's clearly Traveller; but we're never exposed to the
>mechanics of the game, and absent that, since it's not in the OTU,
>it feels mostly like this alternate universe I visit several times a
>week. It's fun, you tell me what happens in front of me, and I tell
>you (and the other players) what my character does in response. 

Well, okay that's fair.  I keep the mechanics hidden in order to
keep the players immersed in their characters, and because I switch
in and out of "roll and shout" mode as the situation merits.  ;->

>Traveller versions, if you are not using the official background,
>are more in the roll playing than the role playing and so far (for
>me, at least) I haven't touched a die or cracked a rulebook yet.

>I'm not thinking 'This is Traveller', I'm thinking 'Crikey, we're
>here in a new system three weeks and we've tangled with the secret
>police and the Navy, and had to help them shoot up our own ship! How
>in the heck are we going to pay for the damage, how much damage was
>done, and where in the heck did I put the cold beersi I just had?'

Hee! Hee!

>Yah know, you could tell me we're playing a Warhammer 40k influenced
>melding of White Wolf and AD&D rules and I'd not notice the
>diff....

Good! ;-> And as long as you're having fun, I'm happy.

>we're going to space in starships with jump drive that lasts
>a week, and that's all it needs to be Traveller.

Yeah, I do try to maintain the things that make Traveller,
Traveller:  One week jump drive, travel based communications, grav
control and staying relatively close to RW science for most other
things.

Don't know who said this...

>>From a gearhead standpoint, I'd have to say it's mostly TNE,
>>actually, it's mostly FFS, rather.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: More things that shoot at battledress

Zhodani Drone Missile.  It's tiny, cheap, and fairly dumb, but considering
you can buy 60 for the price of a single battlesuit, and you can leave
them in an area to come out later and kill things, and the warhead is
sufficient on anything smaller than a tank, they're still worth having...
*Variant*: an imperial variant is functionally identical, but slightly
smarter (C6, DX 14, IQ 9) and harder to see (-19 instead of -17).

Body and Subassemblies: body with superior streamlining and lifting body.
Drivetrain: 50 lb vector super thruster, draws 2.5 kW
Weaponry: 50mm 'huge' warhead.  HEAT will do 6d*25(10), or it can hold a
    1 kiloton nuclear weapon.
Instruments and Electronics: short range tightbeam radio w/scrambler,
    short range lasercomm, PESA/1 (scan 11), DX+3 small robot brain(C=5)
Power: 2 x rC cell, powers all systems for one hour.
Volumes: body 1.24 cf.
Areas: body 1.5 sf.
Frame: very light, robotic, expensive.
Armor: PD 3/DR 6 advanced laminate armor.
Surface features: sealed, radical stealth, radical ems, instant chameleon.
    Perception rolls are at -17 for most sensors; vision rolls are at -6,
    or -9 if not moving.
Statistics: 12.5 lb, $4,890, .124 cf, size -3.  ST 2, DX 13, IQ 8, HT 12/1.
    Price does not include software.
Performance: can fly with 37.5 lb excess thrust.  aMax 970, aAcc 70 mph/s, 
    aMR 7.5, aDec 70 mph/s, aSR 2.  Space performance 4 Gs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 16:24:30 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: GT Skill Equivalence

On 07/09/99 at 04:52 AM,  "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> said:

William, you also overlooked something, or at least didn't mention
it.  In MT the maximum number of skill levels is limited to Int+Edu,
right?  So, most of the time MT skills are going to cap off well
below that 29. I also added the TNE numbers...

>Sorry, Doug, but you've made a calculation error. GURPS has a limit
>on skill points [GURPS Basic, 3rd ed rev, pg. B43] (except where the
>setting book redefines it, as in G:SO1 or G:Lensman): 2*age is
>maximum to be spent on skills durign CGen. Rest goes to atts,
>advantages, etc Some comparisons

>Age    CT      MT     T4 [2]   TNE [3]  GT      GT2pt%
>18     0      0 [1]     4       8      =<36     ~5.555
>22     2-4     2-8     6-12   14-21    =<44     ~4.545
>26     3-7     3-15    7-20   18-30    =<52     ~3.846
>30     4-10    4-22    8-28   22-37    <=60     ~3.333
>34     5-13    5-29    9-36   25-44    =<68     ~2.941

>[1] not counting the 1-4 level 0 skills
>[2] working from memory... my T4 books are misplaced.
[3] with *no* career hopping

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:24:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > They are porting the whole thing, but I don't think it's out yet.
> > Probably, will come out about the time Corel releases their Linux
> > distribution this fall.  I'm looking for big fanfair when that
> > happens.
> 
> Too bad they're porting just the _Intel_ linux version...:-( It would be
> really sweet (suite ;-) to be able to pull in a PPC linux version when I get
> Mac OSX...prolly be cheaper than their Mac versions of the software!

I doubt they'll go to open source.  But still, porting to Linux/x86 would be 
the hard part.  A couple compiler directives could handle most of the 
compiling issues if they pay attention to what's going on.  I can't remember 
off the top of my head if a PPC is big-endian or little-endian.  But if the 
Mac OSX uses stock Xwindows, it should be easy to port from the x86.
 
> Traveller versions, if you are not using the official background, are more in
> the roll playing than the role playing and so far (for me, at least) I haven't
> touched a die or cracked a rulebook yet.

We've had to use the dice server a time or 2 in CATN.
 
> I'm not thinking 'This is Traveller', I'm thinking 'Crikey, we're here in a
> new system three weeks and we've tangled with the secret police and the Navy,
> and had to help them shoot up our own ship! How in the heck are we going to
> pay for the damage, how much damage was done, and where in the heck did I put
> the cold beersi I just had?'

Heh.  You got problems with Chekka, tovarisch???
 
Kuzov, er, *Keven*

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:39:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Actually, the Rules state that the word 'Flaming' or 'Death' must be in
proper rock band's name. to wit:

The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' Now THATS a rock band. They
might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)

cf. D. Barry, any number of columns...

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> > From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> 
> > By the say, "Droyne & the Ancients" sounds like a good name for a rock
> > band, doesn't it?
> 
> Aren't they usually the warm-up band for Veedback?
> 
> --Glenn

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:42:48
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GT Skill Equivalence

At 04:24 PM 7/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On 07/09/99 at 04:52 AM,  "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> said:
>
>William, you also overlooked something, or at least didn't mention
>it.  In MT the maximum number of skill levels is limited to Int+Edu,
>right?  So, most of the time MT skills are going to cap off well
>below that 29. I also added the TNE numbers...

One other consideration comes up in G: Special Ops 2nd Ed, pg 45)

"The point totals for modern special ops soldiers will thus be justifiably
higher than those for most characters.  Realistically, most of these points
should go into skills; special ops soldiers on active training spend all of
their time training."

So a case could be made for active duty Marines (and other members of
intense military organizations like Imperial jump troop Divisions) being
allowed a little latitude when it comes to the Age x 2 rule, as long as
they are active duty and thusly training or fighting constantly.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:46:49 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Rumor - Sony doing Traveller

Okay, what's up?  I just got this question from a visitor to my website:

>I heard a rumor that a division of Sony play was looking into
>producing an online RPG similar to it's current Everquest, 
>and basing it on Traveller, or a very similar system. Has 
>there been any other talk of this?
 
Baseless or... ?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:19:32 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

To Bloo, Bruce Johnson, Michel Vaillancourt, and Black ICE,
thank you for the feedback!

It's all come in very useful already (I've got one player
who's burning up the Web with his emails from work. :-))

Bloo, I have some Imperial law writeups I'd like to send
you offline for your comments/amusement. Your draft is
right along the lines of what I'd like to write up myself.

Bruce, your thought on limiting where such a ship can
operate legally was one I hadn't really considered. I am
now.

Michel, I've borrowed your entire writeup for immediate
use in my campaign. The level of detail is perfect.
Of course, I guess that reveals my somewhat heretical
leanings towards Traveller but what the heck. ;-)

Black ICE, your links were great for helping me scale
"acceptable weaponry" in my campaign.

If anyone else has any feedback, please post away! I'm
getting the TML in digest form so I won't actually read
it until Monday, though.

Thanks again, all.

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 18:25:14 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> > Subject: Emerad in the Jewell Cluster
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Aside from the GT Behind the Claw book, are there any canon references to
> > Emerald in the Jewell Cluster? Specifically, I'm after maps..
>
> Either The Spinward Marches Campaign or Alien Adventures has an
> adventure set on Emerald, involving a squad of lost Zhodani troopers who
> don't know that the war is over. I don't remember maps; maybe, maybe
> not.
>
> --Glenn

Yup.

The Last Patrol.  First Adventuer in the Alien Realms book.
4 pages of Referee stuff. Only map is a close of an "outback" area:
river through jungle.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:29:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Imaginactra <russcm@shell.zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: Rumor - Sony doing Traveller

If it's the same ppl who did Everquest, check out Sony 969 Studios (I
know they did it, I knew someone on the game engine staff). They do have a
website, but the exact address escapes me.

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, C. Michael (Swordy) wrote:

> Okay, what's up?  I just got this question from a visitor to my website:
> 
> >I heard a rumor that a division of Sony play was looking into
> >producing an online RPG similar to it's current Everquest, 
> >and basing it on Traveller, or a very similar system. Has 
> >there been any other talk of this?
>  
> Baseless or... ?
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The TRAVELLER Domain
> http://www.downport.com
> Colin Michael, Webslinger
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #840
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 9 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 841



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Versions 
Re: Why I don't play GT 
Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)
GT and Materials (was Re: Battledress)
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)
Re: GT and Materials (was Re: Battledress)
Re: TML Archives
Re: A question about the Civil War 
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Armour Limits
IRC chanels
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: TML Archives
Re: TML Archives 
Re: Versions 
Re: IRC chanels
Re: TML Archives
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die
Re: IRC chanels 
Re: TML Archives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 18:35:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
> >I *liked* HT.  I could see the point of massive destruction happening
> >throughout the confines of the old Imperium; after all, several factions are
> >fighting a war to the last drop.  But a restored 3I?  Not a chance.
> >Personally, I'm of the same frame of mind as the guy they quoted in SM I
> >think about if the Rebellion ended one day and everything went back to
> >'normal', it would invalidate everything that had happened.  IMTU, the
> >Rebellion *happenned*.
> 
> I saw HT as the beginning of the end of the Imperium, setting things up for
> the expansion of the most powerful remaining human empire, which would
> slowly annex the rest of the empires remnants until the Solomani Sphere
> became the Solomani oblong. I pictured Deneb and the Ziru Sirkaa surviving
> as independent entities.

My take on the Solomani Confederation is, it's not *quite* cohesive enough to 
do that, even if they tried hard.  There was just as much factionalisation as 
in the Imperium, with the hardliners getting ready to go off on the 
moderates, and so forth.  Plus, you have to keep in mind travel times and 
communication times.  Part of what made the Imperium die was the 
communications lag.
 
> >> T4: The vison returns, but the rules go screwy.
> >
> >Everything I've read about it convinces me that M:0 is just the TNE without
> >the pesky Virus, and with Humaniti still on top of the food chain.  So
> >where's the Great Change?
> 
> Interesting perspective. I've seen many arguments here that M0 is to dark,
> too nasty unlike good old shiny TNE. The game has a different feel (no
> virus!) and I prefered it to TNE. It's darker (especially if you read stuff
> like Joe Walsh's scenario in Missions of State) and has great opportunities
> for politics/nobles/exploration and pirates<g>.

TNE is shiny?  I admit I haven't read much of it, only having SM, but I've 
also read quite a bit off the web.  And I dunno bout you, but even 
considering the inhabitants of cemetary worlds are totally ficticious, it 
*still* gets to me sometimes when I read a subsector list with both 1115 and 
1200 data in it.  Having seen a bit of the real thing in the Real World, it 
sometimes takes me a minute to remember that it's *just a game*.  But the 
feeling I get from the setting is prolly like what Neanderthal Man felt about 
Cro Magnon when they first started showing up in the 'hood.  
'Congratulations.  You just came in in 2nd Place in the Evolutionary 
Sweepstakes!'  You don't get this in M:0.
 
> >Personally, I like the idea of the Rebellion.  Empires are born, grow up, and
> >die.  History tells us this.  Nothing lasts forever.  IMNSFBHO, *let* the 3I
> >die.  It's all just part of the process.
> 
> I always found a death by disintergration much more feasible than Virus.
> But Virus was audacious..

I think Virus was a bit of overkill, personally.  HT did the job nicely enough of trimming everything back.  Virus wasn't needed to 'clear the decks'.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 18:43:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT 

> CT was the best RPG I had read/played at the time - characters with
> careers, a spanning space background which resembled Norton, Azimov and to
> an extent Star Wars. The game was good, although I found combat a little
> slow. Then along came MT and its task system. This was superb; it's still
> one of the best laid out RPGs, and was very playable (except automatic gun
> combat until I got DGP's screen). The background was expanded, plausible
> and gave the opportunity to take things in a slightly different direction.

I've never played MT, just CT.  But I mine MT for ideas *constantly*  A great 
resource for me.  The problem I'm having with G:T is, everything IMTU 
postulates the Rebellion is taking place.  Thus, its 'it's all a bad dream' 
premise just won't work for me.  And while I own a copy of the original 
Spinward Marches LBB (*and* Solomani Rim, for that matter), my game is set in 
Reavers' Deep, so the Spinward Marches stuff doesn't help me a bit.  What I'd 
like to know, though, is there any warfare rules or chrome in First In?

> Hard Times is possibly one of the best PG supplements ever. Out came TNE,
> butchered the  Third Imperium's remnants, massively changed the rules, and
> tinkered with the technology. I kept buying the books, but found myself
> running games set around 1116/1117 under MT with the transition to the
> Rebellion. Then GDW died, and I was sad. :-/

Without a doubt, I agree about HT.  Great set of rules to 'devolve' societies 
at war.
 
> However, I think that GT should be supported, and I'm grateful that there
> are people in BITS like Martin Dougherty and David Thomas who will take my
> Traveller scenarios and add in the GURPS specific stuff. (I suppose *I*
> should really, owning Space, and Basic, but I'm lazy :-) )

This one I'm not so sure about.  But I *am* happy that *somebody* is keeping the Traveller name alive until the next version comes out.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:44:21 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients
> 
> Actually, the Rules state that the word 'Flaming' or 'Death' must be in
> proper rock band's name. to wit:
> 
> The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' Now THATS a rock band. They
> might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)

The funny thing about FD&tDA is that the band comprises three Solomani
boys from Terra and a deaf Vargr drummer.  Their fans sometimes get into
violent altercations with fans of Hiver Death! (the exclamation point is
officially part of the name), a band from the other side of the same
continent of Terra.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 99 17:56:25 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: GT and Materials (was Re: Battledress)

On 07/07/99 at 11:52 PM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:

>>They're moderately friendly to mecha and battlesuits, but not dreadfully so. 
>>The reason GT battlesuits look tough is that GTL 12 'advanced laminate armor'
>>is about 5x stronger, weight for weight, than bonded superdense (the 'advanced
>>metal' which tanks have is only about 3x stronger; the 'expensive metal' used
>>in starship armor is about 2x stronger)

GURPS DR and FFS AV serve about the same purpose in their respective
games, and both scale linearly, so we should be able to express FFS
materials in GURPS terms (and vice versa).

In FFS, 1 cm of hard steel has an AV of 2.  In GURPS, 1 inch of hard
steel has a DR of 70, and little conversion gives us approximately
28 DR per cm.  This gives us a conversion factor to work with.  We
can say that DR 14 ~= 1 AV.  We can take a ratio of each material
and hard steel and apply the conversion factor to get the
following...
                    AV      DR
                    FFS    GURPS
 Description       per cm  per cm
 =================================
 Wood               0.20     2.80
 Masonry            0.30     4.20
 Reinforced Concrete .40     5.60
 Iron               1.50    21.00
 Soft Steel         1.70    23.80
 Hard Steel         2.00    28.00
 Light Alloy        1.70    23.80
 Fiberglass         0.25     7.00
 Titanium Alloy     3.00    42.00
 Light Composite    4.00    56.00
 Composite Laminate 6.00    84.00
 CrystalIron        8.00   112.00
 Superdense        14.00   196.00
 Bonded SD         28.00   392.00
 Coherent SD       40.00   560.00

This is aimed at Traveller folks that might want to use GURPS stuff,
but not convert to GRUPS itself.  I am well aware that the numbers
I'm generating here aren't GRUPS standard.  I really don't care, this
conversion works for me.

Okay, here are some examples (not digs).  

We have a Battlesuit with a DR 1200 armor factor?  In Traveller
terms that's 6.12 cm of SD, 10.71 cm of CrystalIron, 14.86 cm of
Composite Laminate, or 42.86 cm of Hard Steel.

Starships have a min AV of 40?  In GURPS terms that means they need
DR 560 of armor, and we can get that with 5 cm of CrystalIron or
2.86 cm of SD.

Personal Armor?
  Heavy Kevlar: DR 12 = 0.84 AV (0.21 cm Light Composite)
  Combat Infantry Dress:  DR 40 = 2.86 AV (0.48 cm Comp Laminate*) 
  
  * probably plates of CrystalIron embedded in something like Kevlar
    in this case
  
>  <grumble>  Which means that rather than ever use G:T as written I'm
>much more likely to treat it as CT/MT source material as I'd
>originally planned; the basic book looks like it will make a great
>"Players Handbook".

I'm not grumbling too much, I never thought GT's material would be
more than source for me.  I might use the numbers from above though,
yes they make AV's a lot higher, but they also allow more variation
between the steps.  I also think GURPS weapons (or G^3 conveted to
GURPS) are easier to create than FFS weaspons.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 18:02:30 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients
> >
> > Actually, the Rules state that the word 'Flaming' or 'Death' must be in
> > proper rock band's name. to wit:
> >
> > The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' Now THATS a rock band. They
> > might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)
> 
> The funny thing about FD&tDA is that the band comprises three Solomani
> boys from Terra and a deaf Vargr drummer.  Their fans sometimes get into
> violent altercations with fans of Hiver Death! (the exclamation point is
> officially part of the name), a band from the other side of the same
> continent of Terra.

ISTR reading on a Web site about a TNE-timeline band named Lucan and the
Imperials, or some such (I don't remember the backup band's name, but I
know that the leader used the name Lucan).  Anybody know where I can
find this again?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:12:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Materials (was Re: Battledress)

Eris Reddoch writes:
Hm...(a) list density, and (b) list lb/sf (=.15 * density/toughness).  I don't remember all the densities, and some memories might be wrong, but some values ar inserted below.
>                     AV      DR     g/cc  LB/sf
>                     FFS    GURPS
>  Description       per cm  per cm
>  =================================
>  Wood               0.20     2.80
>  Masonry            0.30     4.20
>  Reinforced Concrete .40     5.60
>  Iron               1.50    21.00  8     .8
>  Soft Steel         1.70    23.80  8     .7
>  Hard Steel         2.00    28.00  8     .6
>  Light Alloy        1.70    23.80  6?    .56
>  Fiberglass         0.25     7.00
>  Titanium Alloy     3.00    42.00  
>  Light Composite    4.00    56.00
>  Composite Laminate 6.00    84.00  7?    .18
>  CrystalIron        8.00   112.00  10    .19
>  Superdense        14.00   196.00  15    .16
>  Bonded SD         28.00   392.00  15    .08
>  Coherent SD       40.00   560.00  15    .056
GT: expensive TL 10 metal is .1, expensive TL 12 metal is .04 (used in starships).  IIRC FF&S had a rule which increased the DR of thin sheets of armor due to surface effects.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 08:59:39 +0930
From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

On 08 Jul 1999, Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>How does one get a hold of all those older messages?  I think I started
>the list in either '97 or '98.

You can grab 'bundles' (of 10) digests from 
<ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/> in .tar.Z (Unix TAR and GZip) as 
far back as May 96.  Earlier than that and you're looking at messages 
from the old server which have a different naming scheme.  Poke around 
the directories - you'll find them.

Basically, whilst the TML archives at ftp.mpgn.com are mostly intact, 
they show signs of their age - different naming schemes, different 
encoding schemes, different bundling schemes - what you would expect from 
successive administrators of the box and/or the list (whoever was 
responsible, I don't know).  It can get a bit confusing trying to sort 
out exactly what belongs where, let me tell you.

Anyway, the lack of a clear, easy to reference archive of the list is 
*one* of the factors that prompted me to clean things up a bit.  Even 
though the digests are there, they are not organised in such a way as to 
actually be useful (with the exception of a lone "TOPICS" file in one of 
the directories, which at least made an attampt at being a reference).

Hmmm...  Would I be treading on anyone's toes if I put the organised 
archive on a CD and made it available to anyone who was interested on a 
STRICTLY not-for-profit basis?  I did a web search and found that there 
was some sort of TravellerCD project started (in 1996?) but no recent 
refs and no website, so I assume that didn't make it far.

Henry.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:30:59 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War 

> > From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" 
> > > I'm working on some notes on the Emperors List, trying to work out who
> > > these weenies are.
> > 
> > You got the Library Data LBBs?  There's an Emperor's List in one of
> thm...
> 
> That's what I'm working with.  The trouble is there's next to no detail
> about who they all are.  I kind of want to know *why* they would risk
> everything to sit in a chair, however comfy, whose last 6 occupants have
> ended up as grease-stains.
> 
> I think there were vaguely coherent factions, at least initially.  I
> suspect there were 'Plankwellists', Moot-supporters, moderates (like
> Arbellatra), and of course bucketloads of pure and simple opportunists. 
> I'm trying to put the names we have into some kind of vague framework like
> this.

LBBs seem to support this.  But it's more like, the opportunists were in the 
majority, thinking they had the 'juice' to pull it off.
 
> BTW, that source you were using the other day - could it have been the
> articles on IRIS in Challenge, around about issues 40-50?  I hated IRIS, so
> I have never paid much attention to the articles, but there could have been
> some mention of the Civil War in the history bits of the article.  I think
> IRIS was set up after the Civil War, to make sure it didn't happen again. 
> Was that what you were thinking about?

Could be.  Personally, I didn't take IRIS seriously, and after reading SM, I 
took them even *less* seriously.  <grin>
 
> Anyway, I've written a very nebulous outline for a generic Civil War
> campaign, that could also work for the Rebellion:

<snip>
 
> The PCs are, of course, innocent by-standers when everything hits the fan.

Cute.  And playable.  With some work, of course.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:39:16 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)

> The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' 
> Now THATS a rock band. 
> They might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)


But they're nowhere NEAR as good as the "original" lineup, which 
went by the name of 'Death Droyne and the Flaming Ancients'
They had to change their name because the abbreviation DDatFA 
was used by the old Prog-Rockers 'Death Dragon and the Flaming 
Assassins'.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>>Subject: Re: Armour Limits
>>
>>Hm. What weapons would require really fast traverse times? Point defense
>>lasers. How much more complicated would it make things to set an upper mass
>>limit on PD turrets?
>
>Handwaves I'm okay with -- they don't create rules, they rationalize them.
>I'm considerably more reluctant to implement a change to the rules without
>working through the implications, especially the hidden ones. Look at the
>"3 cradles = 1 turret" rule: I'm already being told that my example LASH
>freighter in FT is an illegal design because that rule appears in Star
>Mercs, and I ported the damn cradles in from VE2 myself. I'm going to have
>to either modify ("elaborate") the rule for GT: Starships, figure out an
>interpretation that covers all examples to date, or errata the design --
>all because someone published a new rule without checking for consequences.

I can see the reasoning behind the rule: exterior ships use up surface
area. OTOH, the number of cradles required is a function of _mass_, while
the surface area required is a function of _volume_, which means that
really havy fighters can't be mounted on the surface.

If I was being consulted (which I wasn't), I'd have used a rule to the
effect that every nn dtons of carried craft used up the surface area
required for one turret.


I've thought of another handwave for the "turrets should have 1/2 armour"
guideline. By making the turret armour 1/2 the hull armour, the designer is
simulating the effect of openings for the launch tube/laser, sensor arrays,
and so forth. The lesser armour factor is just to reflect the change that
these vulnerable bits may be hit.

Would this work?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:42:28 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>Hm. What weapons would require really fast traverse times? Point defense
>lasers. How much more complicated would it make things to set an upper mass
>limit on PD turrets?

I thought that it had already been established that what moves is the aiming
mirror, the turret rotation is relatively irrelevant.

>And if I have my entire ship armoured to 10 000, will a missile worry me anyway?

It should. 

Missiles do damage of 6d*100(5)*relative Gs (GT page 159). So a missile moving
at one G relative will do an average of 2100(5) or damage 10 500 worth of
armour. So the first relative G is required to go through your 10 000 point
armour. Any relative Gs after the the first will be internal damage - at an
average of 2100 damage per additional G. In any reasonable (consensual fly by)
combat you are usually talking high double figure relative Gs.

Kinetic Kill Missiles are often a one shot kill. Which is why PDF is so
important.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:58:29 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: IRC chanels

Hi all,
   Finally swore of using public terminals and purchased my own Model I 
computer with easy Library Data.  Translation:  No longer using Public 
Library Terminals and I have my own machine now!  With the sad death of 
Imperium Games does anyone know of IRC dedicated to Traveller.  Furthermore, 
I would be interested in any listing play-by-IRC sites out there.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:04:48 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Date sent:      	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:42:08 -0700
From:           	Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

> Well, damn spank me and call me a Solomani monkey...I've had that books
> since it came out, and I didn't remember that little tidbit.

> Really starts to color my opinion of Cleon 1 darker. Also makes me
> wonder just how Mad 'Cleon III' was ... maybe the moot just finally
> decided that power mad sociopaths weren't needed on the Imperial throne
> anymore...

M0 as written is wonderfully dark. The Zhunastu School of Contact and the
whole realpolitik things can make for a delightful game of intrigue and
double dealing. Remember in M0, trust no one.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:21:29 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

Ok, I went to the Traveller Archives and downloaded all the Xboat files,
but can't seem to unzip them using Winzip..what do I use on .Z files?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:16:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: TML Archives 

> Ok, I went to the Traveller Archives and downloaded all the Xboat files,
> but can't seem to unzip them using Winzip..what do I use on .Z files?

It's the unix 'compress' utility.  Tell Winzip they're unix compressed tars.  
I'm fairly sure it understands compress.  I *know* it understands gzip.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:17:05 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> From: SD Mooney 
> I saw HT as the beginning of the end of the Imperium, setting things up
> for the expansion of the most powerful remaining human empire, which
> would slowly annex the rest of the empires remnants until the Solomani
> Sphere became the Solomani oblong. I pictured Deneb and the Ziru Sirkaa
> surviving as independent entities.

Plus, of course, the new member confederations of the Julian Protectorate
in Lishun, the Empty Quarter and Antares....

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:41:39 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: IRC chanels

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
>    Finally swore of using public terminals and purchased my own Model I
> computer with easy Library Data.  Translation:  No longer using Public
> Library Terminals and I have my own machine now!  With the sad death of
> Imperium Games does anyone know of IRC dedicated to Traveller.
Furthermore,
> I would be interested in any listing play-by-IRC sites out there.

Welcome to your own version of cyber space.  Drop by Suzette Dollar's IRC
#traveller site for some (slightly outdated Suz) info about the channel and
some of the IRC games going on.

http://home.att.net/~websuz/index.html

Be happy to see any and all on #traveller on the Undernet :-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:52:59 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> It's the unix 'compress' utility.  Tell Winzip they're unix compressed tars.
> I'm fairly sure it understands compress.  I *know* it understands gzip.
> 
> Keven
> 


Actually, Winzip pops a box up with the filename, asking for an
extension, when I try to EXTRACT.  It doesn't allow me to select a
compression routine.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:48:53 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die

From:           	"Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Date sent:      	Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:39:16 -0400
 
> > The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' 
> > Now THATS a rock band. 
> > They might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)

> But they're nowhere NEAR as good as the "original" lineup, which 
> went by the name of 'Death Droyne and the Flaming Ancients'
> They had to change their name because the abbreviation DDatFA 
> was used by the old Prog-Rockers 'Death Dragon and the Flaming 
> Assassins'.

Hah, they all pale in comparison with "Megadeath Maiden and the
Lesbian Aslan Pirates".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 20:49:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: IRC chanels 

> Welcome to your own version of cyber space.  Drop by Suzette Dollar's IRC
> #traveller site for some (slightly outdated Suz) info about the channel and
> some of the IRC games going on.
> 
> http://home.att.net/~websuz/index.html
> 
> Be happy to see any and all on #traveller on the Undernet :-)

*VERY* outdated, but she's been kinda busy lately, I hear.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 10:31:56 +0930
From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

On 10/7/99, Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:

>I'd have thought 157MB of uncompressed tML, when cleaned up and
>compressed would be less than 65MB.
>
>Are you going to remove all the quoted material as part of the
>cleanup?

I used Unix TAR and Compress (which I mistakenly referred to as GZip in 
my last post, sorry) to produce a .tar.Z of the whole lot and it came in 
at 71 MB.  I then used StuffIt Deluxe to do the same thing and that came 
in at 65 MB.  Since there wasn't a drastic difference between the two, I 
figure that they pretty-well define the outfield of "the ballpark".

I'm not a compression guru, so I'm happy to stick with compression 
formats and engines that are widely accepted, even though others may be 
able to sqeeze an archive down a bit further, at the cost of using 
obscure formats/compressors.

As for what will go and what will stay:

1)  The 740 byte footer (at the bottom of this digest, for example) will 
definitely be going.  Although it does serve a purpose when it is being 
emailed, no such purpose is served when the digests are part of a larger 
archive (which can singly be referenced).

2)  The old list server included "To:" and "Message-ID:" lines for every 
message.  Since To; is obvious and Message-ID serves no purpose, they 
will also be stripped.

3)  All attachments will be stripped.  Why attachments were ever allowed 
in the first place, I don't know, but they are gone.

4)  The old list server also attributed authors to the subjects in the 
summary at the top - they'll go.

5)  A number of mailers produce X-Headers like "Organization:", "Lines:", 
Sender:", "References:", and so-on...  All that will be stripped.

6)  MIME and HTML fluff will also be stripped (can't say I've noticed 
much, but I'll check just to make sure).

7)  Auto-responder messages "Sorry, but I'm on holiday..." will be 
stripped in toto, and the summary section amended accordingly.

8)  Clueless messages "How do I unsubscribe?"  will be stripped in toto, 
and the summary section amended accordingly.

But, to finally answer your question, NO, I will NOT be removing quoted 
material.  Although that would undoubtedly result in the biggest savings, 
some messages simply don't make sense when read without the quoted 
material.

It could be argued that the Subject: line could be used to reference the 
thread, but many Digest subscribers were (and are still) too slack to 
bother renaming the Subject: field and, as a result, the number of 
messages with "Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #839"-type subjects remains 
high.  The meaning of these messages would be completely lost if the 
quoted material was removed.

- --
SIDE NOTE:  I configured my own mailing list server to reject messages 
which contain "Re: ... Digest #n".  This quickly and effectively taught 
the subscribers to rename the subject lines.  I know majordomo is capable 
of being scripted to do this, but does anyone here have the connections 
required to implement such a trivial (yet useful) mod?
- --

One thing I *have* been experimenting with is hyperlinking messages.  
Say, for example, that you read this message and then post a reply.  I've 
got a link script in alpha which will flags your message as being a 
followup to mine.  When you use a web browser to view my original 
message, the contents of your "From:" field (usually your real name and 
your email address) appears in a side-frame as being a "followup" (along 
with everyone else who did the same).

The difference between my script and all of the others that I've seen 
(which can be applied to text digests) is that they determine replies 
based only on the "Subject:" field, whereas I use pattern-matching within 
the body of a message itself to further refine the followup chain.  The 
neat thing about this approach is that it will follow a thread *even if 
the subject line changes* (to "Oh God, not again (was Re: 
Traveller-digest V1999 #839)" for example.  ;)

Like I said, its in alpha, but initial trials look good.  If 
the-powers-that-be let me put the archive on CD, then I'll almost 
certainly hyperlink the whole lot - that would make navigation just sooo 
much easier.

Henry.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #841
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 842



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TML Archives 
Re: TML Archives
Ship Design - Normandy Class Marine Deployment Ship (HG)
Re: Battledress
Re: Versions
Re: IRC channels 
Re: TML Archives
'nother ship question
RE: and now to something completely different
More things that shoot at battledress
Re Battledress
[none]
GT vs Traveller Skill-wise
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die
Re: GT and Materials (was Re: Battledress)
RE: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Versions
Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 21:10:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: TML Archives 

> 
> 
> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > It's the unix 'compress' utility.  Tell Winzip they're unix compressed tars.
> > I'm fairly sure it understands compress.  I *know* it understands gzip.
> 
> 
> Actually, Winzip pops a box up with the filename, asking for an
> extension, when I try to EXTRACT.  It doesn't allow me to select a
> compression routine.

Damn.  I know there was a unix decompressor laying around for DOS someplace,
but I can't remember where it's at.  You check TuCows?

BTW, I don't 'do' Win9x, so I don't have this kinda info around on me anymore.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:21:45 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

> Ok, I went to the Traveller Archives and downloaded all the Xboat files,
> but can't seem to unzip them using Winzip..what do I use on .Z files?

If they are unix gzip files WinZip should handle with no problems, version
7.0 definitely does

Otherwise they might be the old unix "compress" files, in which case you
need to find a dos/win version of the compress utility

Frankie


 --
> ___________________________________________________________
>  J-Man
>  ICQ# 2843475
>  New Hampshire - U.S.A.
>  Email : j-man@iname.com
>  Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
> ___________________________________________________________
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:39:06 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Ship Design - Normandy Class Marine Deployment Ship (HG)

Fighting Ships Format					
Normandy-Class Marine Deployment Ship
                       D1338f3-20990-3000	MCr2608.56            4.7 ktons
Batteries Bearing		  Z			TL F
Batteries			  Z			Crew 79
Passengers=. Cargo=320. Fuel=1786. EP=376. Agility=1. Troops=451
Notes:  Z=47.

Remarks:
        The Normandy-class MDS is intended to conduct operations where they
can have the full support of an integrated task force.  Unlike the
Diplomat-class vessels which can and do at times operate independantly of a
task force, the Normandy only does one thing...  deliever a battalion of
Marines to a planetary surface.
        The plethora of beam laser turrets are to function as AAW/PD systems
as well as counter-battery fire during landings.  The armor belt is to give
some defense to the craft while landed unloading her Marine compliment.  She
has no real combat redundancy nor expanded electronics to operate as a
command ship.  The Normandy-class vessels are delivery craft only.
        However, a government can afford 17 Normandy-class MDS for each
Diplomat-class.  This would be an effective deployment of 5 brigades.
Mission success with a Normandy is entirely dependant on her Naval support
to allow her safe passage to the target world surface.

Starship Design Sheet:
        http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/temp/normandy.html

Errata:
        The Diplomat-class description stated that she carried three
complete battalions.  This is incorrect.  These vessels carry 3 complete
*brigades*.  All numbers used were for a 3-brigade compliment.
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:46:03 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress

>What started this was my description of the modified disad Combat Paralysis
>for troops used to fighting in battledress.

In and of itself, I find this a very interesting idea for a GURPS
Disadvantage. 

In a desparate attempt to clear up some of the confusion, for non-
GURPS players, I will hasten to point out that this Disadvantage,
like any other disad, is a *voluntary* one, one that a player can
pick, if he thinks it will make his character more interesting. 
There are lots and lots of disads out there, this is just one of
them. I doubt very many players would take this one, but I think
it's a great idea -- keep it in when you write your book.

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:52:03 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

>  The Zhodani Consulate, in addition to being devoted to truth, peace,
justice,
>harmony, and the distribution of fluffy bunnies to children everywhere, is
>both larger and more advanced and has fundamentally cooler looking outfits,
>which latter is kind of odd when you consider that the Solomani _are_ a bunch
>of facists, after all...

I dunno... I always thought the Zhodani turbans looked kind of goofy,
myself. "Cool" and "Zhodani" just don't seem to fit together in my mind.
(I haven't seen what Solomani uniforms look like, so I can't comment.
But I imagine their forces would be dressed mostly in black. With black
gloves. And a little symbol representing the Greek letter "psi" -- no,
wait, wrong universe...)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 09:49:10 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: IRC channels 

> > Welcome to your own version of cyber space.  Drop by Suzette Dollar's IRC
> > #traveller site for some (slightly outdated Suz) info about the channel and
> > some of the IRC games going on.
> >
> > http://home.att.net/~websuz/index.html
> >
> > Be happy to see any and all on #traveller on the Undernet :-)
>
>*VERY* outdated, but she's been kinda busy lately, I hear.

All right!  All right!  I'll update it.  I'll update it.

Jesse?  Are you still running around out there?  Got a bar scene for me?

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:43:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: TML Archives

>From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au>
>Subject: Re: TML Archives
...
>Hmmm...  Would I be treading on anyone's toes if I put the organised 
>archive on a CD and made it available to anyone who was interested on a 
>STRICTLY not-for-profit basis?  I did a web search and found that there 
>was some sort of TravellerCD project started (in 1996?) but no recent 
>refs and no website, so I assume that didn't make it far.

  I'm tolerably certain that this project is ongoing:

>End of The Traveller CD Project Digest V1 #229
>**********************************************
>
>
>To unsubscribe, send a message with "unsubscribe" in the body of the message
>to trav-cd-digest-request@qrc.com.  A non-digest version is also available,
>to join, send a message containing "subscribe" to trav-cd-request@qrc.com.
>
>Traveller is a trademark of Far Future Enterprises, used with permission.
>This list is used to prepare copyrightd materials for publication.  Do not
>quote or re-distribute material from this list without explicit permission
>from the project coordinator (kagekiha@aol.com) or the copyright holder.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:38:07 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: 'nother ship question

Just what IS that ship that's on pg. 3 of the main G:T book?  Just
curious...
*weg*

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:39:09 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: and now to something completely different

>>>> SPRAAAYYY!!! <<<<

Don't DO that while I'm having a beer!!!!

:)

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
> Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 10:47 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: and now to something completely different
>
>
> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>  >Virus . . .
>
> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
> comfortable shoes...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
> It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
> on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
>                   http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:24:25 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: More things that shoot at battledress

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Zhodani Drone Missile.  It's tiny, cheap, and fairly dumb, but considering
>you can buy 60 for the price of a single battlesuit, and you can leave
>them in an area to come out later and kill things, and the warhead is
>sufficient on anything smaller than a tank, they're still worth having...
>*Variant*: an imperial variant is functionally identical, but slightly
>smarter (C6, DX 14, IQ 9) and harder to see (-19 instead of -17).

>HEAT will do 6d*25(10), or it can hold a 1 kiloton nuclear weapon......
.........
>Performance: can fly with 37.5 lb excess thrust.  aMax 970, aAcc 70 mph/s,
>    aMR 7.5, aDec 70 mph/s, aSR 2.  Space performance 4 Gs.

Now your talking. Of course the nuclear warhead makes it illegal for use
inside the Imperium, but I doubt that will really disturb the Zhodani. I
also doubt anyone would bother to set them to go off just because a team of
Scouts in exploration suits walked by or a group of EOD skill weapon
merchants either. I can see a mine field full of these things having all
kinds of plot hooks. Might even be handy to salvage a few incase anyone in
BD wanted to bother you ;)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:38:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Battledress

>>There are a couple of caveats to the idea that snub pistols MUST penetrate
>>battledress: they couldn't in STRIKER, and I don't think they could in
>>SNAPSHOT or AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING. I assume that STRIKER, SNAPSHOT and
>>AHL play a part in CT "canon" and they were used as the basis for
>>MegaTraveller combat (which also featured battledress that bounced snub
>>pistol rounds.)
>
>T4 snub rounds cannot penetrate BD either (5D pen/damage  1D explosive).
>
Under MT, pen is 1 for HE & Tranq, and 6 for HEAP. the HEAP rounds can and
will get minimal penetration results (AV/2 > Pen > AV/10) for 1/10th
damage... So you need a better than normal to hit roll to get damage in (I
normally round with mathematically Standard rounding)but beating the task
by 2 points will suffice to do 1 point.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:38:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>One other consideration comes up in G: Special Ops 2nd Ed, pg 45)
>
>"The point totals for modern special ops soldiers will thus be justifiably
>higher than those for most characters.  Realistically, most of these points
>should go into skills; special ops soldiers on active training spend all of
>their time training."
>
>So a case could be made for active duty Marines (and other members of
>intense military organizations like Imperial jump troop Divisions) being
>allowed a little latitude when it comes to the Age x 2 rule, as long as
>they are active duty and thusly training or fighting constantly.
>
>- --
I doubt that the ImpMar troops really are training EFFECTIVELY more than
50% of the available waking hours... Especially since some are going to be
pulling Gunnery Details...

Suggestion: Include an additional "skill allowance bonus" in the CGen
notes... say, 2x time in service?

That way, non-template based characters can be built... and include a
minimum age for the characters in the templates, based upon such
formulae....

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:38:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: GT vs Traveller Skill-wise

>William, you also overlooked something, or at least didn't mention
>it.  In MT the maximum number of skill levels is limited to Int+Edu,
>right?  So, most of the time MT skills are going to cap off well
>below that 29. I also added the TNE numbers...
>
>>Sorry, Doug, but you've made a calculation error. GURPS has a limit
>>on skill points [GURPS Basic, 3rd ed rev, pg. B43] (except where the
>>setting book redefines it, as in G:SO1 or G:Lensman): 2*age is
>>maximum to be spent on skills durign CGen. Rest goes to atts,
>>advantages, etc Some comparisons
>
>>Age    CT      MT     T4 [2]   TNE [3]  GT      GT2pt%
>>18     0      0 [1]     4       8      =<36     ~5.555
>>22     2-4     2-8     6-12   14-21    =<44     ~4.545
>>26     3-7     3-15    7-20   18-30    =<52     ~3.846
>>30     4-10    4-22    8-28   22-37    <=60     ~3.333
>>34     5-13    5-29    9-36   25-44    =<68     ~2.941
>
>>[1] not counting the 1-4 level 0 skills
>>[2] working from memory... my T4 books are misplaced.
>[3] with *no* career hopping
>
>Eris
Didn't exactly forget the limit, but have found that generally, PC's seldom
hit it after MOB's... after all, MOB's were doubled in MT, and +2 Edu and
+1 int were fairly common.... And, thanks for adding the TNE numbers... I
couldn't find  my TNE Mk1 Mod 0 or Mod 1 books...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:06:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die

At 12:48 PM 7/10/99 +1200, you wrote:

>> > The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' 
>> > Now THATS a rock band. 
>> > They might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)
>
>> But they're nowhere NEAR as good as the "original" lineup, which 
>> went by the name of 'Death Droyne and the Flaming Ancients'
>> They had to change their name because the abbreviation DDatFA 
>> was used by the old Prog-Rockers 'Death Dragon and the Flaming 
>> Assassins'.
>
>Hah, they all pale in comparison with "Megadeath Maiden and the
>Lesbian Aslan Pirates".

Feh.  The Sword Worlds folk/rock/acid band Hinn Bakklatur Dauour are the
best, with their long strange improvs.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:11:37 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: GT and Materials (was Re: Battledress)

[snip Eris' table]

You know, it's funny how things are. I came up with this a year or two ago
based on materials I found on the 'net and in the books. I find it
heartening that you came up with similar values.

=================================
Armor Equivalency Chart for GURPS
=================================

Below is listing of armor types and cover values from TNAS (Traveller Naval
Architecture System) for T4.1, 2300AD, and FF&S1, with GURPS conversion
values.

These values are based on a DR of 70 for one inch of hard steel (GURPS
Vehicles 2e, p. 10).

TL  Description                           Tough  Dens.  kCr/kl    DR/cm
DR/inch
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
3   Iron ................................  1.5    8      0.016       21
52
4   Soft Steel ..........................  1.7    8      0.016       24
60
5   Experimental Plastics ...............  0.2    1      0.001        3
8
5   Hard Steel ..........................  2      8      0.02        28
70
6   Aluminum ............................  1      3      0.015       14
35
6   Titanium ............................  2      4.5    0.05625     28
70
6   Aluminum Alloy ......................  1      2.7    0.0037      14
35
6   Titanium Alloy ......................  2.5    4.9    0.0102      35
88
7   Hybrid Plastics .....................  0.5    1.5    0.003        7
18
7   Laminate ............................  2      6      0.03        28
70
7   Super Steel Alloy ...................  2.5    7.8    0.0052      35
88
7   Improved Aluminum Alloy .............  1.1    2.6    0.0042      16
39
7   Advanced Titanium Alloy ............  2.6    4.7    0.0111      36
91
7   Metallic Laminate ...................  1.2    3.6    0.0042      17
42
7   Glass Composite .....................  0.75   1.9    0.0099      10
26
8   Metallic Laminate ...................  7.75  11.13   0.0122     108
271
8   Graphite Composite ..................  5      2.1    0.0595      70
175
8   Composite Laminate ..................  6      5      0.05        84
210
9   Advanced Steel ......................  4      6      0.06        56
140
9   Sheathed Foam .......................  0.8    1.8    0.0054      12
30
9   Aluminum Lithium Alloy ..............  1.1    2.4    0.0046      16
39
9   Advance Metallic Laminate ...........  1.8    4      0.0056      25
63
9   Boron Composite .....................  7      2      0.0875      98
245
9   Metal Matrix Composite ..............  1.6    2.6    0.0154      22
56
9   Ceramic Laminated Composite (CLC) ...  3.6    1.8    0.0500      50
126
10  Advanced Composite ..................  7      7      0.105       98
245
10  Crystaliron .........................  8     10      0.09       112
280
10  Dense ...............................  9     10      0.15       126
315
10  Foamed Aluminum .....................  0.5    1.5    0.00375      7
18
10  Foam Steel Alloy ....................  2.13   6.24   0.0034      30
75
10  Aluminum Lithium Foam ...............  0.94   1.92   0.0049      13
32
10  Titanium Alloy Foam .................  2.34   3.995  0.0117      33
82
10  Composite Matrix Armor ..............  9.61   9.54   0.0252     134
336
10  Ceramic Matrix Composite ............  1.25   1.3    0.0240      18
44
10  Improved CLC ........................  5.1    1.75   0.0729      72
179
10  Synthetics ..........................  3.75   1.4    0.0804      52
131
11  Doped Plastics ......................  1      1      0.004       14
35
11  Foamed Titanium .....................  1      2.25   0.0140625   14
35
11  StructureComp ....................... 11     13      0.117      154
385
11  Reinforced Foam Aluminum Alloy ......  3.45   2.08   0.0249      48
121
11  Reinforced Foam Steel Alloy .........  4.34   5.968  0.0109      61
152
11  Reinforced Foam Titanium Alloy ......  4.51   3.9495 0.0342      63
158
11  Improved Synthetics .................  5.63   1.5    0.1125      79
197
11  Metal Ceramic Alloy .................  2.88   2.22   0.0195      40
101
12  Superdense .......................... 14     15      0.15       196
490
12  Synthetic Armor .....................  9.84   2      0.1477     138
344
12  Improved Structural Synthetics ......  1.7    1.2    0.0213      24
60
12  Improved Metal Ceramic Alloy ........  6.2    2.997  0.0311      87
217
12  Metal Ceramic Armor ................. 13.13   6.4625 0.0406     184
460
13  Advanced Crystraliron ............... 10     10      0.08       140
350
13  Advanced Superdense ................. 21     15      0.135      294
735
13  Charged Aluminum ....................  2      3      0.03        28
70
13  Electropolymorphic Synthetics .......  4*     1.5    0.3188       6
14
13  Metal Ceramic Alloy .................  1.67   2.725  0.0092      23
58
14  Bonded Superdense ................... 28     15      0.12       392
980
14  Charged Foam ........................  2      1      0.005       28
70
14  Charged Titanium ....................  4      4.5    0.1125      56
140
14  Light StructureComp .................  7      4      0.032       98
245
15  Hybrid Crystaliron .................. 14      9      0.072      196
490
16  Hullmetal ........................... 12      5      0.075      168
420
17  Coherent Superdense ................. 40     15      0.375      560
1400
17  Foamed Hullmetal ....................  6      2.5    0.01875     84
210
20  Sheathed Hydrogen ................... 12      3      0.06       168
420

Tough.=Toughness (from FF&S1)
Dens.=Density

* the Toughness of Electropolymorphic Synthetics is improved by 10x with the
input of 1 MW/kl.

Just my 0.02 Cr.

Ciao,

Joseph Bruce Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net
Gearhead piker

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:20:02 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Droyne & The Ancients

Hi All, just to chime in...

>> However, in M0 (T4), the information is being suppressed.  Emperor
>> Cleon I wants the Ancients to be Human, hence the Archon Theory.
>
>I haven't heard of this theory.  Is it your own invention, or from some
>other source?

Mileu0, pages 82-83 give the "Archon Thesis".  A leading theory during the
Rule of Man it states that an ancient race of humans, the Archons, were the
Ancients.  This was the basis for the racial superiority logic of the
Solomani Movement.  Cleon, in trying to justify the new 3I, used this as a
legitimatizing way to say he was only putting back together something that
had once existed.

 "Considering how much stock Cleon has put in presenting the Third Imperium
as the rightful heir to both the First and Second,, the Arcon Thesis serves
his expansionist purposes as well as it did  (the Solomani of the Rule
era). "

So even as the droyne were discovered during the course of history you have
to take into account the politics of research (as anyone trying to write up
a research grant request could tell you).  Until the power of the Solomani
in the Imperial court was broken in the 660s it was probably 'common
knowledge' that the Ancients were the Archons, ancient humans.

Then you only have a 2 century window to even think about the droyne until
the Psionic Supresssions hit.  After that not only are the droyne worlds
interdicted, but your average Imperial citizen would actively hate the
droyne.  Interdiction fleets probably saved more than one droyne world from
genicidal attacks.

Even by the 1100's the droyne, when they are thought of at all, are seen as
replent.  So what if the Ancients could have been the droyne?  Creepy
little monsters couldn't actually do anything good or advanced, that is a
crazy theory:  That is likely the opinion of your Imperial on the Street.

Only enlightened, thoughtful and very very greedy people, PCs, would even
think twice about droyne and treasure...

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 03:41:01 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

On 07/09/99 at 06:35 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> >> T4: The vison returns, but the rules go screwy.

Not *that* screwy. ;->

>> >Everything I've read about it convinces me that M:0 is just the TNE without
>> >the pesky Virus, and with Humaniti still on top of the food chain.  So
>> >where's the Great Change?

Actually, my complaint was that it wasn't enough like TNE in that
there still weren't any really open frontiers or big opponents to
challenge the new 3I. There *couldn't* be because the story had to
follow the previously written 1100 years of history. <sigh> 
 
>> Interesting perspective. I've seen many arguments here that M0 is to dark,
>> too nasty unlike good old shiny TNE. The game has a different feel (no
>> virus!) and I prefered it to TNE. It's darker (especially if you read stuff
>> like Joe Walsh's scenario in Missions of State) and has great opportunities
>> for politics/nobles/exploration and pirates<g>.

>TNE is shiny?  

That could have been sarcasm....or perhaps not.  A number of TNE'ers
insist that the underlying premise of TNE is rebirth and the
bringing of hope to the wilds.  OTOH...

>I admit I haven't read much of it, only having SM, but
>I've  also read quite a bit off the web.  And I dunno bout you, but
>even  considering the inhabitants of cemetary worlds are totally
>ficticious, it  *still* gets to me sometimes when I read a subsector
>list with both 1115 and  1200 data in it.  

...if it's Survival Margin and the cemetary worlds you think of when
you think of TNE then yeah it's a very dark world.  As for me, I
have expressed my problems with the "smash and grab" RCES pirates,
and certain other details, but I tend to come down on the pro side.
Sort of, "The last 70 years have been a time of darkness and death,
now the dawn is coming."  Of course, *I* made the collapse complete
and 7,000 years long not 70. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 03:30:12 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

On 07/09/99 at 06:35 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >I *liked* HT.  I could see the point of massive destruction happening
>> >throughout the confines of the old Imperium; after all, several factions are
>> >fighting a war to the last drop.  But a restored 3I?  Not a chance.
>> >Personally, I'm of the same frame of mind as the guy they quoted in SM I
>> >think about if the Rebellion ended one day and everything went back to
>> >'normal', it would invalidate everything that had happened.  IMTU, the
>> >Rebellion *happenned*.

Agreed.
 
>> I saw HT as the beginning of the end of the Imperium, setting things up for
>> the expansion of the most powerful remaining human empire, which would
>> slowly annex the rest of the empires remnants until the Solomani Sphere
>> became the Solomani oblong. I pictured Deneb and the Ziru Sirkaa surviving
>> as independent entities.

Not agreed. ;-> 

>My take on the Solomani Confederation is, it's not *quite* cohesive
>enough to  do that, even if they tried hard.  There was just as much
>factionalisation as  in the Imperium, with the hardliners getting
>ready to go off on the  moderates, and so forth.  Plus, you have to
>keep in mind travel times and  communication times.  Part of what
>made the Imperium die was the  communications lag.

When I read Hard Times and went back over the MT material I have (I
don't have it all, so my vision might be missing important pieces) I
decided that what was coming was going to be what I called The Big
Breakup.

The Imperium is gone.  In its place are a some widely scattered
systems that hold off the complete collapse.  Eventually, a few of
them will expand again and small pocket empires will form with wide
gulfs of "wild worlds" between them.

The Solomani, controlled by fanatics, overextend themselves
attacking Earth and pushing beyond.  The beginning of the end for
these fanatics is when the people of Earth reject them and there is
a crisis of confidence in the whole concept of Solomani as supermen.
A rising tide of revolts and wars sweep over the Rim and all the
peoples the Solomani have been oppressing rise up against them and
the within a few years the Rim is in the same state as the former
Imperium.

The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
opposite directions.  In the second there *is* something wreaking
the Zeristu Empire, maybe it's "sparklers", "aliens from the core",
or even that TNE construct "The Empress Wave"...I don't know, but
something does to them what the rest of the humans are doing to
themselves.

IAC, by 1140 or so, you've got complete chaos from one end of known
space to the other.  Move the clock forward 50 years and you have
what *I* thought TNE was going to be...a dozen or more pocket
empires just starting to explore more than a couple of parsecs from
their center. 

I thought (still think) there would be a lot of potential in this
universe.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #842
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 843



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TML Archives
Re: The Yahoo!/GeoCities Dispute
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: Versions
Re: Armour limits
re: Emerald in the Jewell Cluster
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Versions 
Re: Armour Limits
Xenobiology 101 Thread
re: Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]
re: Battle Dress
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr
Re: TML Archives
Re: A question about the Civil War
Re: Armour Limits
Fortress-class Assault Fighter (GTL12)
Flamboyant Monkey-class Frontier Cruiser (GTL12)
Baboon-class Scoopship (GTL12)
Imperial Marine Training
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: Versions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:58:53 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

>Hmmm...  Would I be treading on anyone's toes if I put the organised 
>archive on a CD and made it available to anyone who was interested on a 
>STRICTLY not-for-profit basis?  I did a web search and found that there 
>was some sort of TravellerCD project started (in 1996?) but no recent 
>refs and no website, so I assume that didn't make it far.

But you told us not to tell you if anyone else had done anything similar. 
So don't read any further if you don't want to know...

Look up HIWG CD in the archives. 
Latest ref is digest 756 (1999) and proceed from there. 
Though the entry suggests Bryan may be on holiday.
Alternatively look on the BITS website www.bits.org.uk.

You should combine forces.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 02:07:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: The Yahoo!/GeoCities Dispute

On 07/08/99 at 11:08 PM,  "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com> said:

>Yahoo caves!  I guess boycotts actually work, sometimes, huh?

I'd say they responded to the concerns of their members, rather than caved. ;-J

I think I can Section 7 is acceptable now, but Section 1 is still a little troubling.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:39:48 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
> opposite directions.  
......
> IAC, by 1140 or so, you've got complete chaos from one end of known
> space to the other.  

"Blatant anti-Vargr prejudice!

The Vargr have maintained an interstellar civilization for millenia, and
_still_ humans persist in regarding us as barbarians!

Is it any wonder that some of us raid you?"

- - translated from anonymous source by:
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:12:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:


>  Being a Solomani apologist I can at least understand, but spreading this
>sort of pernicious disinformation leads one to assume that you've either
>been co-opted by SolSec - or you're an agent.

Get out of my mind you.......

>  The Zhodani Consulate, in addition to being devoted to truth, peace,
>justice,
>harmony*, and the distribution of fluffy bunnies to children everywhere**, is
>both larger and more advanced and has fundamentally cooler looking outfits,
>which latter is kind of odd when you consider that the Solomani _are_ a bunch
>of facists, after all...

Hmm. Larger - maybe (will have to hunt out my Alien Modules to check).
More Advanced - I believe that we have similar technologies and we are more
liable to advance than your static, conservative society...
Outfits - I cite the TML Great Old One Bruce Berry here "Embrace Fascism,
the uniforms are cool". Anyway, turbans aren't as great a style statement
as jackboots.


But, in the spirit of the enemy of my enemy being my friend - the
Confederation has suffered greatly from the expansionism of the Imperium.
Perhaps you could start a 6th Frontier War at the same time as we start the
2nd Great Patriotic War for the Liberation of Terra and the Solomani Race
from Vilani Enslavement?

ObTrav - If all goes well, one of our GenCon adventures should be based
around the players being Zhodani lost in the Imperium!

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:16:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Armour limits

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> writes:

>I think that you're misreading the framwork of the rule. Advanced Laminate
>isn't a specific kind of material, like steel or kevlar. The reason it gets
>better as TL increases is that the individual materials that the layers are
>made out of change. Presupposing some advancement in materials science per
>tech level it makes sense that the DR of advance laminate would improve as
>TL goes up. I'd say that at higher GTL's, 14 or 15, other kinds of armor
>will replace it. As this is beyond any TL in Traveller (Except Ancients
>tech) AL is the best armor.

But AL at lower GTLs is stronger than the maximum Traveller Technology at
the same TL, ergo it needs to be limited in some way to give the same feel
as CT, MT, and T4.

I also have a teny problem with a laminate outperforming coherent bonded
superdense, but lets not go there.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:40:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Emerald in the Jewell Cluster

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Either The Spinward Marches Campaign or Alien Adventures has an
>adventure set on Emerald, involving a squad of lost Zhodani troopers who
>don't know that the war is over. I don't remember maps; maybe, maybe
>not.

It's in Alien Realms - thanks for the head up. There are no maps...

Thanks,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:21:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:

>Mark Urbin wrote:
>> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
>>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>>  >Virus . . .
>>
>> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
>> comfortable shoes...
>
>And said, "G'day, Sheilas," while he loaded his shoulder-fired
>Penguin launcher.

From the Feudal Technocracy were he was hiding out, having debated the
effeciveness of fighter swarms against capital ships....

BTW - didn't the Russians have a Penguin Missile?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:35:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Versions 

 "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:


>I doubt they'll go to open source.  But still, porting to Linux/x86 would be
>the hard part.  A couple compiler directives could handle most of the
>compiling issues if they pay attention to what's going on.  I can't remember
>off the top of my head if a PPC is big-endian or little-endian.  But if the
>Mac OSX uses stock Xwindows, it should be easy to port from the x86.

The PPC can be either big-endian or little-endian IIRC. You tell it which
when it boots.

MacOS X will have a MacOS like GUI....


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:43:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

 John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> writes:
>Kinetic Kill Missiles are often a one shot kill. Which is why PDF is so
>important.

What's Acrobat got to do with KKMs? <g,d,r>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:03:38 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Xenobiology 101 Thread

Is someone going to compile this and put it on a website? It looks good.

Alternatively, I offer some space on the BITS site to carry this.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:09:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]

Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com> writes:

>It's simple...just turn off Java and JavaScript.  I only turn them on when I
>go to a site where I find I need them.  I love seeing the code for a pop-up
>show up as raw HTML on the bottom of a Geocities page, knowing I'm thwarting
>them, if only ever-so-slightly.  For a long time before I learned that
>trick, I actually kept a list of Geocities pop-up sponsors, and deliberately
>avoided visiting them.  I'd skip Geocities completely, but too many people
>have too much cool stuff there.
>
>Maybe not for much longer.

If you have a Mac with OS>7 check out the iCAB browser
(http://www.icab.de/) which is <800kB and allows you to filter the size of
window used for pop-ups. It also checks pages against the HTML4 standard
and reports back non-compliances. It works for 68k and PPC but doesn't have
Javascript ready in this version of the browser. It does have Java through
Apples' MRJ kit.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:48:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Battle Dress

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>I'm thinking of some specialized hostile operations suits, such as one
>might use in heavy gravity, deep ocean or nasty weather. I recall
>a White Dwarf (?) scenario that involved a processing plant in a gas
>giant atmosphere, where the winds and high gravity made a civilian
>variety of BD almost a requirement for the maintenance crews.

"Sky Rig" was the scenario - somewhere around WD57/58. A great scenario,
and I must have run it five or more times. Excellent way to give the
players a fully fitted metal coffin.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 04:17:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "There's also the factor that in the attempt to "Chtorr-form" 
> Earth, you have to assume that the unseen aliens behind it 
> have gathered specimens and possibly even set up sample terran 
> ecologies somewhere. Thus, they can test organisms before 
> introducing them on Earth.
>
> So when they "dump" an organism on Earth, they've already 
> determined that it's going to be one that walks all over the 
> local competition."
>
>         With an intelligence behind the invasion, one with
>         advanced understanding of biology and detailed knowledge
>         of Terran life, I could definitely imagine such a
>         situation. Some (relatively) simple manipulations might
>         at least give the invaders resistence to Terran diseases
>         (to avoid the fate of Wells' Martians). Even if some of 
>         the invaders fail, they can be replaced.

There's a lot of speculation that the plague that wiped out much of
Earth's population my have been the first stage of the attack. No
evidence of course...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 21:44:31 +0930
From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

On 10/7/99, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>Hmmm...  Would I be treading on anyone's toes if I put the organised 
>>archive on a CD and made it available to anyone who was interested on a 
>>STRICTLY not-for-profit basis?  I did a web search and found that there 
>>was some sort of TravellerCD project started (in 1996?) but no recent 
>>refs and no website, so I assume that didn't make it far.
>
>  I'm tolerably certain that this project is ongoing:
>
>End of The Traveller CD Project Digest V1 #229
>**********************************************
>
>To unsubscribe, send a message with "unsubscribe" in the body of the message
>to trav-cd-digest-request@qrc.com.  A non-digest version is also available,
>to join, send a message containing "subscribe" to trav-cd-request@qrc.com.
>
>Traveller is a trademark of Far Future Enterprises, used with permission.
>This list is used to prepare copyrightd materials for publication.  Do not
>quote or re-distribute material from this list without explicit permission
>from the project coordinator (kagekiha@aol.com) or the copyright holder.

Email to both list addresses is rejected by the qrc.com mail server with 
"Sorry, no mailbox here by that name. (#5.1.1)" messages.

No web site for the project can be found at www.qrc.com.

A global AltaVista search on "Traveller CD Project" results in only one 
(count it 1) match, which is a links page.  The link leads to a dead-end.

On a hunch, I punched up the project coordinator's homepage 
<http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/> and was taken to an old web site with 
a mass of broken links.  Not a mention about the Traveller CD Project.

I've beamed off an email to <kagekiha@aol.com> and, well, it's been 15 
minutes and it hasn't bounced yet!  I guess that's a good sign.

At this point in time, either the Project has been classified by the CIA 
in the interests of national security, or it died a natural death.  I 
guess the latter.

Henry.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:35:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: A question about the Civil War

>> BTW, that source you were using the other day - could it have been the
>> articles on IRIS in Challenge, around about issues 40-50?  I hated IRIS, so
>> I have never paid much attention to the articles, but there could have been
>> some mention of the Civil War in the history bits of the article.  I think
>> IRIS was set up after the Civil War, to make sure it didn't happen again.
>> Was that what you were thinking about?
>
>Could be.  Personally, I didn't take IRIS seriously, and after reading SM, I
>took them even *less* seriously.  <grin>

Don't forget that IRIS was officially a 'variant'. It kept showing up
because the author of IRIS, Chuck Gannon, was also the author of a lot of
the late MT stuff (like Hard Times, IIRC) and so he kept on using his
variant organization as chrome.

Personally, I deleted all references to IRIS, because I thought it was
silly. When one of my new players wanted to play an IRIS character I just
told him that it was a variant and I didn't use it, and that was that.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:55:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>>And if I have my entire ship armoured to 10 000, will a missile worry me
>>anyway?
>
>It should.
>
>Missiles do damage of 6d*100(5)*relative Gs (GT page 159). So a missile moving
>at one G relative will do an average of 2100(5) or damage 10 500 worth of
>armour. So the first relative G is required to go through your 10 000 point
>armour. Any relative Gs after the the first will be internal damage - at an
>average of 2100 damage per additional G. In any reasonable (consensual fly by)
>combat you are usually talking high double figure relative Gs.
>
>Kinetic Kill Missiles are often a one shot kill. Which is why PDF is so
>important.

Why is the damage dependent on acceleration?  Relative velocity I can
understand, but the acceleration is meaningless (unless you integrate over
time, in which case you end up with velocity anyway).

Or are they assuming that a missile has only been flying for one turn, and
thus this is just a shorthand way of getting to velocity?

(As you may have gathered, I don't use the GT rules for space combat. Last
time I ran a space combat, back in the 1980s, I used the TSAR system.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:55:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Fortress-class Assault Fighter (GTL12)

Fortress-class Assault Fighter (GTL12)

For close-in fighting, nothing tops the Imperial Navy's Fortress-class
assault fighter. Armoured to resist point-blank shots by turret weaponry,
accelerating at an incredible 7G, and armed with dual fusion guns, the
Fortress is capable of precision strikes against even the largest enemy
warships.

Crew: pilot, gunner

80-ton USL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, Turret with 2 fusion guns, Basic stealth,
Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 78 Maneuver, 0 cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 32000 km, AESA 112000 km, Radscanner 3200 km
2 Fusion Guns: Exp, Acc 29, Dmg 6dx411, 1/2D Rng 5920 km, MxRng 17600 km
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 990.3 tonnes, LMass 990.3 tonnes, Cost MCr 40.5, HP 13200
Performance: Accel 7.1 G (7.1 G empty, 7.1 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:55:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Flamboyant Monkey-class Frontier Cruiser (GTL12)

Flamboyant Monkey-class Frontier Cruiser (GTL12)

A multi-mission warship, the Flamoyant Monkey class is designed for
extended patrols and deep force projection. Heavily armoured and carrying
an impressive fighter load, Monkeys have been involved in virtually every
type of mission. Crews behind the claw take particular pleasure in 'talking
grunt' to Vargr, implying that even a human forebearer is better than a
modern Vargr.

Crew: 10 bridge crew, 80 engineers, 310 gunners, 4 medics, 247 auxiliary
crew, 150 troops

50000-ton USL Hull, DR 4200, PD 4, 100 Turrets with 3 missile racks each,
100 Turrets with 3 lasers each, 60 Turrets with 3 sandcasters each, 24
Particle Beam Bays, Spinal Meson Gun, Meson Screen (DR5021), Basic stealth,
Basic emission cloaking, Hardened Command Bridge, Engineering, 4859
Maneuver, 3000 Jump, 25000 Fuel, 150 Fuel Processors (20.8 hours), 333
Staterooms, 10 Bunkrooms (160 personnel), 100 Utility, 5 Spacedocks (150
Rampart Fighters, 20 Citadel Heavy Fighters, 30 Fortress Assault Fighters,
5 Gigs), 4 Vehicle Bays (4 Baboon Scoopships), 3 Sickbays, 10 Workshops,
622 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 160000 km, AESA 320000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
300 405-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 5dx100(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng
124900 km, FP 7
24 Particle Beam Bays: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 6dx1500, Rng 23400 km, MxRng 70220
km, FP 63
Spinal Meson Gun: Exp, Acc 36, Dmg 6dx10000(!), Rng 78080 km, MxRng 234240
km, FP 4243
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 162297.3 tonnes, LMass 219987.5 tonnes, Cost MCr 18137.6,
HP 1311000
Performance: Accel 2.0 G (2.7 G empty, 1.9 G overloaded), Jump 5, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:55:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Baboon-class Scoopship (GTL12)

Baboon-class Scoopship (GTL12)

Little more than a large fuel tank with engines, the Baboon-class scoopship
is designed to provide gas giant refueling capability to capital ships that
are unable to do so themselves. It is also used to refuel ship in enemy
territory, when risking a capital ship within a gas giant is considered
tactically unsound.

Crew: 2 bridge crew, engineer

400-ton SL Hull, DR 200, PD 4, Basic stealth, Basic emission cloaking,
Hardened Bridge, Engineering, 20 Maneuver, 287 Fuel, 2 Staterooms, 1
Utility, 0.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.01 million km
Sensors: PESA 48000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 3200 km

Statistics: EMass 548.7 tonnes, LMass 551.0 tonnes, Cost MCr 64.1, HP 37500
Performance: Accel 3.3 G (3.3 G empty, 3.2 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
3919 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:55:35 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Imperial Marine Training

>One other consideration comes up in G: Special Ops 2nd Ed, pg 45)
>
>"The point totals for modern special ops soldiers will thus be justifiably
>higher than those for most characters.  Realistically, most of these points
>should go into skills; special ops soldiers on active training spend all of
>their time training."
>
>So a case could be made for active duty Marines (and other members of
>intense military organizations like Imperial jump troop Divisions) being
>allowed a little latitude when it comes to the Age x 2 rule, as long as
>they are active duty and thusly training or fighting constantly.
>

I would limit this bonus to Imperial Marine Commandos.  Other Marines are
likely to have collateral duties that would substantially cut into training
time. Shipboard Marines do security and gunnery duties, Imperial Guard
Marines spend a lot of time doing personal protection and ceremonial duties,
Starport guards, etc.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:16:02 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
> 
> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> >> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
> >>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
> >>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
> >>  >Virus . . .
> >>
> >> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
> >> comfortable shoes...
> >
> >And said, "G'day, Sheilas," while he loaded his shoulder-fired
> >Penguin launcher.
> 
> >From the Feudal Technocracy were he was hiding out, having debated the
> effeciveness of fighter swarms against capital ships....

...Said capital ships communicating with base via jump torpedoes.
> 
> BTW - didn't the Russians have a Penguin Missile?
> 
No, (consults _Harpoon_ Data Annex) its the Norwegians who produce the
Penguin anti-ship missile.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:22:28 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> writes:
> >Kinetic Kill Missiles are often a one shot kill. Which is why PDF is so
> >important.
> 
> What's Acrobat got to do with KKMs? <g,d,r>

Hey, I posted the math on that _once_.  I'm not doing it again!

(IIRC, I calculated that one CPU slot in a Traveller computer could
simultaneously run 250 Acrobat windows, thus using PDF to destroy 250
missiles per combat turn.)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:57:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 

> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
> opposite directions.  In the second there *is* something wreaking
> the Zeristu Empire, maybe it's "sparklers", "aliens from the core",
> or even that TNE construct "The Empress Wave"...I don't know, but
> something does to them what the rest of the humans are doing to
> themselves.

You mean Zhodani, don't you, Eris, not Zeristu? Or are the $@#!@# Lizards
telepaths on top of their _other_ charming attributes???

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:26:58 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Versions

> >  The Zhodani Consulate, in addition to being devoted to truth, peace,
> justice,
> >harmony, and the distribution of fluffy bunnies to children everywhere,
is
> >both larger and more advanced and has fundamentally cooler looking
outfits,
> >which latter is kind of odd when you consider that the Solomani _are_ a
bunch
> >of facists, after all...
>
> I dunno... I always thought the Zhodani turbans looked kind of goofy,
> myself. "Cool" and "Zhodani" just don't seem to fit together in my mind.
> (I haven't seen what Solomani uniforms look like, so I can't comment.
> But I imagine their forces would be dressed mostly in black. With black
> gloves. And a little symbol representing the Greek letter "psi" -- no,
> wait, wrong universe...)

Please report to your nearest psychiatric adjustment center...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #843
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 844



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: 'nother ship question
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: TML Archives
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)
Re: TML Archives
Enzhyiench-class Freighter (GTL11)
Kriaplezh-class Liner (GTL11)
Re: TML Archives
Type T deckplans??
RE: 'nother ship question
Re:TML Archives
Re: Speaking of Ancients...
Re:Battledress
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Who "owns" Patinir / Armais / Spinward Marches
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Why I don't play GT 
Re: TML Archives
Re: Speaking of Ancients...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:01:42 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

Eris,

This is nearly exactly what I have pictured and have designed for MTU. I
moved the date a little farther forward to 1483. I created a couple of
struggling pocket empires just emerging from the 2nd night. Known space is
about a 16 parsec diameter. (about two subsectors)

I had imagined the Imperium having collapsed, seeing as Hard Times brought
the safes down to 1-2 subsectors and many of the worlds between were
ravaged. It's hard to imagine expansion any time soon. I pictured a similiar
result to the end of the Rule of Man, another Long Night. (the 2nd Night) I
gave it 3 centuries to recover in the corner of space I'm playing in.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> >> >'normal', it would invalidate everything that had happened.  IMTU, the
> >> >Rebellion *happenned*.
>
> Agreed.
>
<snip>
>
> The Imperium is gone.  In its place are a some widely scattered
> systems that hold off the complete collapse.  Eventually, a few of
> them will expand again and small pocket empires will form with wide
> gulfs of "wild worlds" between them.
>
<snip>

> IAC, by 1140 or so, you've got complete chaos from one end of known
> space to the other.  Move the clock forward 50 years and you have
> what *I* thought TNE was going to be...a dozen or more pocket
> empires just starting to explore more than a couple of parsecs from
> their center.
>
> I thought (still think) there would be a lot of potential in this
> universe.
>
> Eris

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:06:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 'nother ship question

It's an exploding ships boat in front of a Lab ship.  See TNE main rule book
p371, or MT Imperial Encyclopedia p83.

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> Just what IS that ship that's on pg. 3 of the main G:T book?  Just
> curious...
> *weg*
> 
> Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:17:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

> >> I saw HT as the beginning of the end of the Imperium, setting things up for
> >> the expansion of the most powerful remaining human empire, which would
> >> slowly annex the rest of the empires remnants until the Solomani Sphere
> >> became the Solomani oblong. I pictured Deneb and the Ziru Sirkaa surviving
> >> as independent entities.
> 
> Not agreed. ;-> 

Wasn't me, it was the other guy who said that.  Mine's the next para.
 
> >My take on the Solomani Confederation is, it's not *quite* cohesive
> >enough to  do that, even if they tried hard.  There was just as much
> >factionalisation as  in the Imperium, with the hardliners getting
> >ready to go off on the  moderates, and so forth.  Plus, you have to
> >keep in mind travel times and  communication times.  Part of what
> >made the Imperium die was the  communications lag.
> The Solomani, controlled by fanatics, overextend themselves
> attacking Earth and pushing beyond.  The beginning of the end for
> these fanatics is when the people of Earth reject them and there is
> a crisis of confidence in the whole concept of Solomani as supermen.
> A rising tide of revolts and wars sweep over the Rim and all the
> peoples the Solomani have been oppressing rise up against them and
> the within a few years the Rim is in the same state as the former
> Imperium.

That's about my take on it.  In Reavers' Deep, after putting up with the 
Union of Harmony and Union of Purity idiots for long enough, listening to 
their Solomani supremicist rantings for centuries, the locals decided to 
finally stomp them out and have some peace and quiet for a change.  <grin>
 
> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
> opposite directions.  In the second there *is* something wreaking
> the Zeristu Empire, maybe it's "sparklers", "aliens from the core",
> or even that TNE construct "The Empress Wave"...I don't know, but
> something does to them what the rest of the humans are doing to
> themselves.

Doncha mean Zhodani?  I *still* haven't figured out where Argent & the 
Zeritsu Empire are from in your game.

> IAC, by 1140 or so, you've got complete chaos from one end of known
> space to the other.  Move the clock forward 50 years and you have
> what *I* thought TNE was going to be...a dozen or more pocket
> empires just starting to explore more than a couple of parsecs from
> their center. 

HT starts 'timing in' in 1125.  No coincidence there that MTU is set in 1124, 
eh?  <grin>

> I thought (still think) there would be a lot of potential in this
> universe.

Which is why I picked that setting to begin with.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:20:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Joe Webb wrote:
> 
>
> Then you only have a 2 century window to even think about the droyne until
> the Psionic Supresssions hit.  After that not only are the droyne worlds
> interdicted, but your average Imperial citizen would actively hate the
> droyne.  Interdiction fleets probably saved more than one droyne world from
> genicidal attacks.

I don't have the droyne aliens supplement, but none of the references I've
seen point out any specific psionics use. Why were they so hated?

> Even by the 1100's the droyne, when they are thought of at all, are seen as
> replent.  So what if the Ancients could have been the droyne?  Creepy
> little monsters couldn't actually do anything good or advanced, that is a
> crazy theory:  That is likely the opinion of your Imperial on the Street.

Except I've seen a number of references to Droyne Jump drives being very
highly sought after. 

 
> Only enlightened, thoughtful and very very greedy people, PCs, would even
> think twice about droyne and treasure...

Certainly not PC's who study the Droyne very much, or are at all familiar with
the theory. The droyne who survived the Final War were the ones NOT IN Ancient
owned systems.

Remember...the Ancients were Droyne, but not all the Droyne were Ancients.
That was only Gramps and his children. The strongholds of the Ancients were
mostly wiped out and depopulated, all that's left are the scattered Ancient
sites. The droyne worlds of today don't have much, if anything in the way of
Ancient technology because they either destroyed it or never had it. 

The Droyne, as a race, want to live quiet, unmolested lives, not venturing
very far out from their homeworlds. A very good survival strategy during the
Final War, one that would have gotten deeply, DEEPLY engrained in the racial
psyche, much like the the fear of uncontrolled technology the Ancient warbots
instilled in the Vilani.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:33:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

Hie thee hence, immediately, to http://www.aladdinsys.com and download Stuffit
Expander for windows. It will handle just about any format out there.

Incidentally, it is a fine taste of why Macheads like their machines so damn
much...it installs in it's own directory, doesn't dump 300 .dlls with the same
name as other .dlls into your Windows system directory, it doesn't make you
reboot to run it, and it does what you tell it to.

Just drop an archive onto the shortcut and it unpacked it no muss no fuss no
questions asked, into a new directory. It adds -d to zip files that need it,
so that their internal directory structure is maintained, and asks you to
confirm it if you're unstuffing something onto a removable disk.

And it's free. Best port of a Mac program to PC I've ever seen.

Jory Earl wrote:
> 
> "Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:
> 
> > It's the unix 'compress' utility.  Tell Winzip they're unix compressed tars.
> > I'm fairly sure it understands compress.  I *know* it understands gzip.
> >
> > Keven
> >
> 
> Actually, Winzip pops a box up with the filename, asking for an
> extension, when I try to EXTRACT.  It doesn't allow me to select a
> compression routine.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:40:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die (was: Re: Droyne & The Ancients)

On 07/09/99 18:02:30 you wrote:
>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
>> 
>> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>> > Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients
>> >
>> > Actually, the Rules state that the word 'Flaming' or 'Death' must be in
>> > proper rock band's name. to wit:
>> >
>> > The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' Now THATS a rock band. They
>> > might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)
>> 
>> The funny thing about FD&tDA is that the band comprises three Solomani
>> boys from Terra and a deaf Vargr drummer.  Their fans sometimes get into
>> violent altercations with fans of Hiver Death! (the exclamation point is
>> officially part of the name), a band from the other side of the same
>> continent of Terra.
>
>ISTR reading on a Web site about a TNE-timeline band named Lucan and the
>Imperials, or some such (I don't remember the backup band's name, but I
>know that the leader used the name Lucan).  Anybody know where I can
>find this again?

http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/

Check out the GAIL section COALINFONET 4

- ----------------------------------------------------

COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: ENT/GEN, AUTHORITY 
CIN/FIJA YANKERMON SPORTSPLEX, YANKERMON, FIJA (0434/AUBAINE, D553754-
A), 01/IX/1201
KEYWORDS: DULINOR THE BLACK, MUSICAL TRENDS, RAVE reported by Derek 
Stanley 
Dulinor the Black and his entourage ascended the stage of the Yankermon Sportsplex to the cheers 
of a massed audience of over fifteen thousand screaming supporters. Sporting his customary tousled 
hairstyle, and clad in his ceremonial toga, Strephon's assassin haild the crowd as strains of "The 
Clarion," the Ilelish Federation anthem, thundered throughout the darkened arena. As he coolly 
surveyed the massed thousands below, the would-be Emperor has but one question to pose to his 
loyal followers arrayed below: "YANKERMON, ARE YOU READY TO RAVE?!" 
No, it's not a nightmare returned from a dark and discredited era, it's Fija's newest pop sensation: 
Dulinor the Black and the Stormtroopers of Ilelish. Known mainly for it's frontman, Dulinor the Black 
(the former Ned Whiskus, who bears and uncanny resemblance to the former Imperial leader), the 
band claims preeminence as the leader of a new Fijan musical movement known as "Rave." 
Rave, which centers on the unusual, the iconoclastic, and the outrageous, appears to have taken over 
Fijan youth culture almost overnight. "It's as if something was just waiting about in and embryonic 
stage," declared Dr. D.D. Demented, a prominent music critic and commentator of the Fijan cultural 
scene, "Poof! Just add water, and there it was." 
If the ultimate aim of Rave is to shock, then last night's performance certainly acheived it. The set, 
which lasted approximately 90 minutes alternated between blasts of cacophonic music punctuated by 
chants from Dulinor of "Crash Lucan!" and "I did it for the Good of all Humanity!," and an elaborate 
tableau acted out by Dulinor and his bandmates. Giant screens placed strategically about the 
auditorium broadcast cleverly edited speeches by the real Dulinor, which often drowned out the 
ranting coming from the stage. Sound limits sampled from inside the building exceeded safety limits for 
human hearing at least twice, prompting Enos Weatherby, leader of the Parents' League for Fijan 
Decency to denounce the event as a, "dastardly sonic attack on our vulnerable youth!"
One concert-goer, interviewed after the event, summed up the music in this way; "It's a bit bland, but 
its got a good beat, and you can dance to it." 

COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION, ENT/GEN, AUTHORITY 
CIN/AUBAINE, BRUSMAN, AUBAINE (0738/AUBAINE, A78A884-C), 21/IV/1202 
KEYWORDS: DULINOR THE BLACK, ITHKLUR MARINES, RAVE, RIOT reported by 
Derek Stanley. 
Dulinor the Black and the Stormtroopers of Ilelish have canceled their "Genocide" Tour following a 
close encounter with a trio of off-duty Ithklur Marines at their debut concert last night in the 
Brusman's Lampton Civic Arena. Currently, both "Dulinor," and his bassist, "Margaret Lucan," are 
hiding somewhere in Brusman following the ruckus which resulted in severe damage to the auditorium, 
and necessitatied the deployment of the Brusman Port Authority Police SWAT team. Contact with 
the press was made by their manager, Barney Lkath, who refused to meet physically with reporters, 
and instead held the press conference via hololink from an undesclosed location. 
The disturbance began approximately halfway through the band's opening number, "Annihilation," 
when three enraged Ithklur leapt onto the stage and attempted to seize Dulinor. A free-for-all melee 
ensued between the Ithklur and the rest of the band, which effectively ended the performance and 
sparked off a riot as dozens of angry fans began trashing the arena. Dulinor and Margaret Lucan, who 
managed to slip off the stage in the confusion soon found themselves hunted through the dark warren 
of service tunnels beneath the stage by two of the Ithklur, while the third grabbed a fire axe and began 
to methodically destroy the band's equipment. 
The Ithklur pursuit of the controversial entertainers only ceased after a liason with members of the 
Brusman SWAT team, assured them that Dulinor would be apprehended and prosecuted posthaste. 
Interviewed shortly thereafter by reporters, the Ithklur explained that they had won tickets to the 
concert through a local radio promotion, and had been unaware as to the nature of the act before 
arriving at the arena. They also appeared puzzled as to why Coatlition society would tolerate an 
individual whom they termed as "a vile war criminal" making a living as a popular entertainer and 
media icon. 
At present, Hive Federation officials have been unavailable for comment. 



- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:41:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

Henry Penninkilampi wrote:
> 

> On a hunch, I punched up the project coordinator's homepage
> <http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/> and was taken to an old web site with
> a mass of broken links.  Not a mention about the Traveller CD Project.
> 
> I've beamed off an email to <kagekiha@aol.com> and, well, it's been 15
> minutes and it hasn't bounced yet!  I guess that's a good sign.
> 
> At this point in time, either the Project has been classified by the CIA
> in the interests of national security, or it died a natural death.  I
> guess the latter.

It's moving along slowly, we just had the 'It's a new month, where are you
now' emails, but Bryan is going on or is on vacation or some hiatus until September.

Definitely tell Bryan about the digests stuff (actually he may be reading it
now, he is on the TML) it'll definitely be a good addition to the next HWIG
(or TML) CD he's planning.

There are two projects: the HWIG CD, aka the TML CD, which is a compilation of
fan-produced stuff, and the Traveller CD which is a project to scan and ocr
all the GDW (afaik it's only GDW) Traveller material published. 

Bryan may have a couple HWIG CD's laying around for purchase. At one point in
time he was considering annual updates to that one.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:48:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Enzhyiench-class Freighter (GTL11)

Enzhyiench-class Freighter (GTL11)

A common freighter in the Zhodani Consulate, the Enzhyiench class can be
encountered almost anywhere that required bulk freight transported.

Crew: 3 bridge crew, engineer

1200-ton USL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Bridge, Psionic Switches, Engineering, 50
Maneuver, 36 Jump, 240 Fuel, 4 Staterooms, 3 Utility, 851.5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km
Sensors: PESA 48000 km, AESA 160000 km, Radscanner 3200 km

Statistics: EMass 813.6 tonnes, LMass 4675.1 tonnes, Cost MCr 171.6, HP 75000
Performance: Accel 1.0 G (5.6 G empty, 0.2 G overloaded), Jump 2, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:48:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Kriaplezh-class Liner (GTL11)

Kriaplezh-class Liner (GTL11)

A common liner in the Zhodani Consulate, where it serves express routes,
the Kriaplezh is an extremely comfortable liner. As an unarmed vessel is
rarely encountered outside the Consulate, where violence and piracy are
virtually unknown.

Crew: 2 bridge crew, engineer, 2 medics, 4 stewards, 2 auxiliary crew
Passengers: 75 high passengers, 40 low passengers

800-ton USL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Bridge, Psionic Switches, Engineering, 16
Maneuver, 42 Jump, 336 Fuel, 81 Staterooms, 10 Low Berths (holds 40
cryotubes), 2 Utility, External Cradle (Pinnace), Sickbay, 69 cargo

Communicators: Radio 5 million miles, Laser 10 million miles
Sensors: PESA 30000 miles, AESA 100000 miles, Radscanner 2000 miles

Statistics: EMass 1054.3 tons, LMass 1529.7 tons, Cost MCr 198.6, HP 60000
Performance: Accel 1.0 G (1.5 G empty, 0.5 G overloaded), Jump 4, Air Speed
0 mph

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:12:51 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

> much...it installs in it's own directory, doesn't dump 300 .dlls with the
same
> name as other .dlls into your Windows system directory, it doesn't make
you
> reboot to run it, and it does what you tell it to.
>

Where's the fun in that?  ;)

Seriously, I've been using Aladdin Expander for a long time and its great.
In my business I receive artwork via email all the time. Some of my Mac
customers like to Stuffit their files. I think AOL even does it to Mac
users. Because of AOL, I was forced to find a solution to uncompressing
stuffit files. Aladdin Expander has been a great tool.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:34:45 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Type T deckplans??

I know Paul Schirf has some Type T style deckplans on his 'site, but do
other canon examples exist and if so can someone scan them and send them to
me?  I noticed a couple of major differences between Paul's plans (which are
very nice in their own right!!) and the existing canon illustrations that I
have of the Type T.

Thx for the help.  I'm working on the Type T for G:T 2nd Edition.  Progress
will be posted on my site as it develops, just like I've done in the past.

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:36:02 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: 'nother ship question

No, no, no.  Not THAT one.  I mean the page that's marked "3" and is the
second page of the "Contents".

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
> Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 10:07 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: 'nother ship question
>
>
> It's an exploding ships boat in front of a Lab ship.  See TNE
> main rule book
> p371, or MT Imperial Encyclopedia p83.
>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> >
> > Just what IS that ship that's on pg. 3 of the main G:T book?  Just
> > curious...
> > *weg*
> >
> > Jesse
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:16:43 +0100
From: "Nicholas Wright" <Nick@corlecca.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re:TML Archives

The Trav-CD list is working fine. I sent a message to trav-cd@qrc.com on
6/7/99 and it got there.

It is a *Private* or working list so you are not subscribed Immediately but
we would like some more scan checkers who have Traveller books and can check
what we have scanned.

The list adds the following to the bottom of each post so I guess its right.


>To sign off, send "unsubscribe" in e-mail to trav-cd-request@qrc.com.
>Traveller is a trademark of FFE.  The use of any trademark or copyright in
>posts to this list is not a challenge to trademark or copyright status.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:02:13 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...

> Sorry, the architecture in Knightfall is not from the Ancients, but 
> from the Primordials... far older than the Ancients.
>
The Primordials? Who are they?
BZA
 (Don't call me "Bruce")

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:01:30 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re:Battledress

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> writes:
>I'm thinking of some specialized hostile operations suits, such as one
>might use in heavy gravity, deep ocean or nasty weather. I recall
>a White Dwarf (?) scenario that involved a processing plant in a gas
>giant atmosphere, where the winds and high gravity made a civilian
>variety of BD almost a requirement for the maintenance crews.

I would like to point out that GT:Alien Races 1 on p 125 states: "The crew
used a modified cutter ... and war-surplus combat armor and battledress to
descend into its (the gas giant Sheol's) clouds where Zhodani records showed
the ship had gone down."

I would hate to face those environmental conditions of temperature, pressure
and radiation in a suit of battledress that could be penetrated by a hand
weapon.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:05:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

On 07/10/99 12:04:48 Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccessco.nz> 
wrote:
>
>Date sent:      	Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:42:08 -0700
>From:           	Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>> Well, damn spank me and call me a Solomani monkey...I've had that books
>> since it came out, and I didn't remember that little tidbit.
>
>> Really starts to color my opinion of Cleon 1 darker. Also makes me
>> wonder just how Mad 'Cleon III' was ... maybe the moot just finally
>> decided that power mad sociopaths weren't needed on the Imperial throne
>> anymore...
>
>M0 as written is wonderfully dark. The Zhunastu School of Contact and the
>whole realpolitik things can make for a delightful game of intrigue and
>double dealing. 

Except that the Zhunastu School of Contact is totally nonsensical 
economically.  It's like the rest of the handwaves in Traveller though (j-
drive, psionics, etc.) if it makes the game fun -- go for it.



- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:33:10 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Who "owns" Patinir / Armais / Spinward Marches

OK.  Tim & I are working on my "real" Traveller site based in Patinir.  We
could've SWORN that somewhere in canon it was mentioned that Tukera that
owns & operates Patinir, similar to their involvement at Jedespiere &
Pysadi, etc. The Traveller Adventurer says that Patinir is owned and
operated by a board of directors descended from the original colonists...

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:22:08 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

At 11:16 AM 7/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>SD Mooney wrote:
>> 
>> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>> 
>> >Mark Urbin wrote:
>> >> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
>> >>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>> >>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>> >>  >Virus . . .
>> >>
>> >> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
>> >> comfortable shoes...
>> >
>> >And said, "G'day, Sheilas," while he loaded his shoulder-fired
>> >Penguin launcher.
>> 
>> >From the Feudal Technocracy were he was hiding out, having debated the
>> effeciveness of fighter swarms against capital ships....
>
>...Said capital ships communicating with base via jump torpedoes.
>> 
>> BTW - didn't the Russians have a Penguin Missile?
>> 
>No, (consults _Harpoon_ Data Annex) its the Norwegians who produce the
>Penguin anti-ship missile.
>

So the pirate is a Sword Worlder?

Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:32:04 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

Robert Prior wrote:
> 

> Why is the damage dependent on acceleration?  Relative velocity I can
> understand, but the acceleration is meaningless (unless you integrate over
> time, in which case you end up with velocity anyway).
> 

Well forgive me for sounding dumb, Rob, but doesn't velocity add to the
mass of a projectile?  Don't you add a projectile's kinetic force to the
damage upon impact?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:27:05 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT


>Reavers' Deep, so the Spinward Marches stuff doesn't help me a bit.  What
I'd
>like to know, though, is there any warfare rules or chrome in First In?


Not sure what you mean. There *is* plenty of *good stuff* in First In.
Actually, a huge portion of the book consists of a system for designing star
systems. It's basically a much expanded Book 6: Scouts.

However, I don't believe there are any rules for warfare in First In. It's
all about the scouts.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:39:51 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

Thanks Bruce!  I'll go download that Stuffit program right away.  I
backed up my system onto CDROM last night so I at least have a permanent
copy of all the Xboat archives in case I screw them up.  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:03:27 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...

>The Primordials? Who are they?

Well Bruce, according to Knightfall:

"Perhaps the most startling discovery of all that awaits the PCs is this:
The Shimmering City was not built by the Ancients, and actually predates the
Ancients by at least 250,000 years -- the artifacts from it can be dated to
around -600,000 according to the Imperial calendar-which definitely is
before the Ancients' period!

"As it turns out, the city was built by a mysterious race which the Ancients
themselves were studying, and from which the Ancients borrowed some
technology.

"The name of this very old, mysterious race is not known, but a few Imperial
archaeologists have begun to suspect this race's existence. This handful of
archaeologists have coined a name for this new, previously unknown
starfaring race: the Primordials." (Knightfall, pg. 67 sidebar)


>BZA
> (Don't call me "Bruce")

Oops.

Ciao,

Joseph Bruce Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #844
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 845



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperium
Re: Versions
new art... comments please
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: Versions
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: TML Archives
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die
Re: TML Archives
Article on Fuel Cells
Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P
[www] 10 Jul 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:09:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Imperium

Hi all,

just had a trip to my local FLGS (Best Books & Games in Liverpool,UK) and
picked up what I thought was 2nd edition Imperium, and the Spinward Marches
Campaign, both mint (Imperium had no counters punched out!). Imperium was
20 ie $30 so a little more than Marc's $20 sets, and SMC was 15 (22 USD).

Anyway, this set me thinking - someone mentioned that there were two
versions of Imperium (a second edition which had a paper map and the
original). I have a hard board GDW printing, plus a hard board CGC
printing. Does this mean that there are actually 3 versions? The CGC
version, then two GDW copies?

Anyway, on another front, the owner, Dave Frost, asked me to say to the
people who have written to him that he will be contacting them, but his
email is down at the moment. When I looked he still had most MT stuff
(including Digests and SOpM), a lot of CT and some TNE.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:11:58 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

>>off the top of my head if a PPC is big-endian or little-endian.  But if the
>>Mac OSX uses stock Xwindows, it should be easy to port from the x86.
>
>MacOS X will have a MacOS like GUI....

True. Any version of the Mac OS will have a front-end GUI that is pretty
much the same as it always has been. They aren't going to make major
changes since Mac users like what they have.

The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
"Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".

This kind of confusion can be fun. I run a computer-specialty bookstore.
The shortform "OOP" has two radically different meanings: "Object Oriented
Programming" and "Out Of Print". We have to be very careful to make sure
that the context is clear when we use "OOP" for anything... :)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:08:05 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: new art... comments please

Well, it's a very minor attempt at 3d art, nowhere close to Jesse but it
is Traveller related so please check it out and let me know what you
think.

it's located at:
http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm

thanks
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:50:57 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

>Bruce Johnson wrote:


>>
>> Then you only have a 2 century window to even think about the droyne until
>> the Psionic Supresssions hit.  After that not only are the droyne worlds
>> interdicted, but your average Imperial citizen would actively hate the
>> droyne.  Interdiction fleets probably saved more than one droyne world from
>> genicidal attacks.
>
>I don't have the droyne aliens supplement, but none of the references I've
>seen point out any specific psionics use. Why were they so hated?

Droyne have quite a bit of psionic power.  Droyne and chirpers have a form
of invisibility (effects the mind of the viewer, not the light waves
themselves), droyne have a wide array of other powers, including telepathy
and teleporation.
But this stuff is explained in the supplement.  You might want to get it if
you plan on doing anything with droyne as a focus.  GT supposedly has a
droyne book in the works too.


>> Even by the 1100's the droyne, when they are thought of at all, are seen as
>> replent.  So what if the Ancients could have been the droyne?  Creepy
>> little monsters couldn't actually do anything good or advanced, that is a
>> crazy theory:  That is likely the opinion of your Imperial on the Street.
>
>Except I've seen a number of references to Droyne Jump drives being very
>highly sought after.
>

True.  This seems a big discrepency.  I've seen the interdiction explained
as psionic prejudice based, and I've seen the jump drives references too.


>> Only enlightened, thoughtful and very very greedy people, PCs, would even
>> think twice about droyne and treasure...
>
>Certainly not PC's who study the Droyne very much, or are at all familiar with
>the theory. The droyne who survived the Final War were the ones NOT IN Ancient
>owned systems.
>
>Remember...the Ancients were Droyne, but not all the Droyne were Ancients.
>That was only Gramps and his children. The strongholds of the Ancients were
>mostly wiped out and depopulated, all that's left are the scattered Ancient
>sites. The droyne worlds of today don't have much, if anything in the way of
>Ancient technology because they either destroyed it or never had it.
>


From what I understand the droyne in most systems got their by being
servents of the Children and Grandchildren.  By definition almost any
droyne world would have had an Ancients site somewhere (but likely totally
destroyed).  And the droyne hold Ancient artifacts in superstitious awe and
fear, so even if some sites survived, the droyne wouldn't go anywhere near
them.  So I agree to some extent.  But if you have droyne on a world you
had to have an Ancient's base.

>The Droyne, as a race, want to live quiet, unmolested lives, not venturing
>very far out from their homeworlds. A very good survival strategy during the
>Final War, one that would have gotten deeply, DEEPLY engrained in the racial
>psyche, much like the the fear of uncontrolled technology the Ancient warbots
>instilled in the Vilani.

You have to remember the Decline as well.  Virtually all droyne worlds lost
the ability to caste, essentially reverting to near animals (chirpers).
That would be a big break in their psyche, not to mention their past.  The
reintroduction of coynes and society by Grandfather is the only thing that
saved them from extinction.  Droyne live the life Grandfather planned for
them, so they might want to live quiet lives, or they might just be living
quiet lives until they are told otherwise.  Remember those quiet, pastorial
droyne have an entire biological caste devoted to war, warriors who can
become invisible at will, teleport and read your mind.  And usually have a
pretty respectable tech level.  Maybe they're just waiting...

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 15:02:24 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

On 07/10/99 at 07:39 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> said:

>> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
>> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
>> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
>> opposite directions.  
>......
>> IAC, by 1140 or so, you've got complete chaos from one end of known
>> space to the other.  

>"Blatant anti-Vargr prejudice!

No, it isn't. ;->

>The Vargr have maintained an interstellar civilization for millenia,
>and _still_ humans persist in regarding us as barbarians!

Yes, but to a human that interstellar civilization *is* chaos. 

>Is it any wonder that some of us raid you?"

It's probably only some, because the rest are too busy raiding each
other. ;-p

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 15:04:09 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

On 07/10/99 at 09:57 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> 

>> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
>> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
>> opposite directions.  In the second there *is* something wreaking
>> the Zeristu Empire, maybe it's "sparklers", "aliens from the core",
>> or even that TNE construct "The Empress Wave"...I don't know, but
>> something does to them what the rest of the humans are doing to
>> themselves.

>You mean Zhodani, don't you, Eris, not Zeristu? Or are the $@#!@#
>Lizards telepaths on top of their _other_ charming attributes???

Argh! Sorry, the Zeristu are a pocket empire in my Akus Moby game. Yes, I meant Zhodani.

Eris,
    who must have failed his EDU roll!
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 15:30:35 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

On 07/10/99 at 01:17 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> >My take on the Solomani Confederation is, it's not *quite* cohesive
>> >enough to  do that, even if they tried hard.  There was just as much
>> >factionalisation as  in the Imperium, with the hardliners getting
>> >ready to go off on the  moderates, and so forth.  Plus, you have to
>> >keep in mind travel times and  communication times.  Part of what
>> >made the Imperium die was the  communications lag.

>> The Solomani, controlled by fanatics, overextend themselves
>> attacking Earth and pushing beyond.  The beginning of the end for
>> these fanatics is when the people of Earth reject them and there is
>> a crisis of confidence in the whole concept of Solomani as supermen.
>> A rising tide of revolts and wars sweep over the Rim and all the
>> peoples the Solomani have been oppressing rise up against them and
>> the within a few years the Rim is in the same state as the former
>> Imperium.

>That's about my take on it.  In Reavers' Deep, after putting up with
>the  Union of Harmony and Union of Purity idiots for long enough,
>listening to  their Solomani supremacist rantings for centuries, the
>locals decided to  finally stomp them out and have some peace and
>quiet for a change.  <grin>

Yeah, and I picture the same happening all over the Rim. 

To be honest, I've always ignored the K'kree and Hivers, and not
paid much attention to the Aslan either.  I suspect the problem with
a big long breakup is that these groups would move into the vacuum.
And to be fair, having a deux e machina <sp> like Virus to savage
these surrounding groups is a good way to handle the situation from
a post-event game play POV.  I don't want to start a Virus debate,
here.  You can love it, hate it, believe it or disbelieve it as far
as I'm concerned.  To me it was just an equal opportunity wreaking
ball that was used to collapse *everybody* and their neighbor. 

>> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
>> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
>> opposite directions.  In the second there *is* something wreaking
>> the Zeristu Empire, maybe it's "sparklers", "aliens from the core",
>> or even that TNE construct "The Empress Wave"...I don't know, but
>> something does to them what the rest of the humans are doing to
>> themselves.

>Doncha mean Zhodani? 

Yes, and the Zeristu are NOT the Zhodani of MTU.

>I *still* haven't figured out where Argent & the Zeritsu Empire are
>from in your game.  

Astrophysically or culturally?

Well, it's been several thousand years since MTU's Imperium died,
and that might or might not have been the 3rd Imperium, IAC.  IMTU,
jump maps don't correspond to real space maps one to one so many of
the spacial relationships have changed...if they ever *were* the
same.  ;->

Everyone went through the "madness" where virtually all knowledge
was lost thousands of years ago.  So, technology and culture has
been relearned along arbitrary paths. Argent and Zeristu correspond
to no standard Traveller culture, and neither does Mark, Muan Gwi,
Montrose or Newton.  Now, they *might* correspond to my impressions
of various Earth cultures during different eras, but I'm not going
to say more than that.  ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 15:39:34 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

On 07/10/99 at 10:01 AM,  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> said:

>This is nearly exactly what I have pictured and have designed for
>MTU. I moved the date a little farther forward to 1483. I created a
>couple of struggling pocket empires just emerging from the 2nd night.
>Known space is about a 16 parsec diameter. (about two subsectors)

I really like that idea. Tell us more!

>I had imagined the Imperium having collapsed, seeing as Hard Times
>brought the safes down to 1-2 subsectors and many of the worlds
>between were ravaged. It's hard to imagine expansion any time soon. I
>pictured a similiar result to the end of the Rule of Man, another
>Long Night. (the 2nd Night) I gave it 3 centuries to recover in the
>corner of space I'm playing in.

Yes, you are right, it should have taken longer. 

IMTU I wreaked things even more throughly, no safes...everything
ravaged, and it took several *thousand* years to recover.  A
*really* long night.  ;-> Out of it are coming different cultures
*and* different technologies.  To these folks, the Third Imperium
(if that's what it was) is the Ancients, or one set of many Ancients
actually ,and the stuff of myth and story.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:55:49 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

> Not sure what you mean. There *is* plenty of *good stuff* in First In.
> Actually, a huge portion of the book consists of a system for designing star
> systems. It's basically a much expanded Book 6: Scouts.
>
> However, I don't believe there are any rules for warfare in First In. It's
> all about the scouts.
>
Would you advise a CT type guy to go ahead and spring for First In, or
should I try to get a copy of Scouts? Or are there other sources? I am
looking to expand my home rules system building, and would like to know more
about the Steller Data rules, as I want to include varient Jump Drive
systems that rely on star type/size ala MiGE Alderson Drives. I know, pure
unadulterated heresy. I dislike all alien races utilizing the same type of
technology. Hence I shall include relativistic drives, Jump Drives, Warp
Field Generators, Psionic Teleportation, Inter-Steller Gates, etc. I could
base it off of RW data, but Traveller data is already based off of the RW,
and would give a common point of reference to my home rules. Would like some
data on orbital dynamics, the "Green Zone", etc. as well.

I know binary stars can revolve around a common center of mass, but can a
companion star orbit the primary like a super-sized Jupiter on fire? With or
without fries, hold the cheese, please. What of trinary systems? I can't see
all three stars revolving around a single common center of gravity, does one
automatically orbit the first two? Can two stars orbit a primary? What are
the % chances of each type of system? Do some steller types preclude others
in multiple star systems? Could a singularity be part of a systems "family"?
I seem to recall some science article hypothesising a black-hole orbiting
some star "out there".

The Web has many "gearhead" sites, deckplans, Library Data, campaign
settings, etc. Noting this, I have stripped my upcoming website of all my
deckplans and other material that seems to be covered on the Web, and am
focusing on Sectors, Alternative Rules, Xenobiology, Links, and Traveller
oriented Icons/Clip Art. Scout type material would fit well.

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:01:15 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

>>MacOS X will have a MacOS like GUI....
> 
> True. Any version of the Mac OS will have a front-end GUI that is pretty
> much the same as it always has been. They aren't going to make major
> changes since Mac users like what they have.
>
Darn right we like it! ;)

> The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
> "Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
> they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
> X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".

No, I think it is the Roman Numeral X (10).
>
> This kind of confusion can be fun. I run a computer-specialty bookstore.
> The shortform "OOP" has two radically different meanings: "Object Oriented
> Programming" and "Out Of Print". We have to be very careful to make sure
> that the context is clear when we use "OOP" for anything... :)

OOPs! ;)

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:00:27 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, July 10, 1999 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)


>Would you advise a CT type guy to go ahead and spring for First In, or
>should I try to get a copy of Scouts?

A significant portion of the book contains information for the generation of
stellar systems and a barebones approach to generating cultures for the
worlds created. This stuff is useful for just about any version of
Traveller, not to mention any other game where space travel is a reality.

A large portion of the book details the structure of the IISS. This builds
on Book 6: Scouts.

There are some "GURPS only" rules, but to tell you the truth I think that
it's one of the best supplements I've seen for Traveller in *any*
incarnation.

I've also recently picked up Far Trader. I haven't gotten a chance to really
explore it at length, but it's another book that has (in my opinion)
cross-genre appeal.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:12:32 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

I've been reading through Milieu 0 for ideas for pocket empires and such and
the ideas of emerging from the Long Night. The 300 years spent recovering
brought some worlds to the point to attempt contact again. They are in no
way ready to form another Imperium, if it's even wanted again.

This is a new campaign for me and is still in the developmental stages. I'll
post what ever I can to my web page for everyone to read. I'm still working
on deciding exactly where in known space I will place these pocket empires.
I'm thinking near the Solomani/Imperial/Aslan Border. Possibly Daibei,
Zarushagar or Ilelish. I suppose it would be reasonable for a clan of Aslan
to get up to Ilelish in 300 years... Their'd probably be a lot of Aslan
expansion during the fall of the 3I. See... their I go again. Always
thinking up new stuff. I'll be sure to post a link to my website when I put
up something on this.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)


> On 07/10/99 at 10:01 AM,  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
said:
>
> >This is nearly exactly what I have pictured and have designed for
> >MTU. I moved the date a  little farther forward to 1483. I created a
> >couple of struggling pocket empires just emerging from the 2nd night.
> >Known space is about a 16 parsec diameter. (about two subsectors)
>
> I really like that idea. Tell us more!
>
> >I had imagined the Imperium having collapsed, seeing as Hard Times
> >brought the safes down to 1-2 subsectors and many of the worlds
> >between were ravaged. It's hard to imagine expansion any time soon. I
> >pictured a similiar result to the end of the Rule of Man, another
> >Long Night. (the 2nd Night) I gave it 3 centuries to recover in the
> >corner of space I'm playing in.
>
> Yes, you are right, it should have taken longer.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:03:10 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

> From: Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au>
 
> At this point in time, either the Project has been classified by the CIA 
> in the interests of national security, or it died a natural death.  I 
> guess the latter.

That's strange.  I get a digest of that mailing list almost every day. 
I'll send a message to the list asking that you be contacted, with cc:
to you directly.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:10:47 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
 
> No, (consults _Harpoon_ Data Annex) its the Norwegians who produce the
> Penguin anti-ship missile.

Who says Scandinavians don't have a sense of humor?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:17:17 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die

> From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
 
> COALINFONET, CLASS: NEWSREPORT, DISTRIBUTION: ENT/GEN, AUTHORITY 
> CIN/FIJA YANKERMON SPORTSPLEX, YANKERMON, FIJA (0434/AUBAINE, D553754-
> A), 01/IX/1201
> KEYWORDS: DULINOR THE BLACK, MUSICAL TRENDS, RAVE reported by Derek 
> Stanley 

Yes, I have long since learned not to drink anything while reading the
TML.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:25:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives

Henry Penninkilampi <htp@metropolis.net.au> writes:
>At this point in time, either the Project has been classified by the CIA
>in the interests of national security, or it died a natural death.  I
>guess the latter.


Wildstar (one half of the FFS2 writing team) maintains the QRC based lists
and was moving the list server address IIRC - following cross post from TWG
list

>Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:38:23 -0400
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: [TWG] OT: HELP ! i've been unable to unsubscribe
>
>>I'm in a hurry, as in a few days my email adress will be off (by June 26th)
>>and still haven't unsubscribed (i'll resubscribe from my new account)
>
>Sorry; I've yet to transition these lists to the new
>mailing list server, so things aren't working 100% right now.
>
>In any case, I've manually unsubscribed you.
>
>If anyone else has trouble with the mailing-list software,
>please contact me (wildstar@qrc.com), and I'll look into
>it as well.
>
>wildstar@qrc.com

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:35:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Article on Fuel Cells

The following article on Fuel cells may be of interest -

http://www.che.com/9901/html/9901nf3.htm

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:30:51 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P

To whomever it was that's working on the old TML bundles and is missing the
early ones...

While taking a break from working on the Keith 'Lost Supplements' Books
this afternoon (yes, still working on them!) and after noting James
Kundert's (GypsyComet) post  regarding his efforts in locating some of the
early missing bundles, I decided to wade through my old files and see if I
myself had any of the early bundles still sitting on my hard-drive. Here is
what I found:

Bundles 1-111 (The first post to the first bundle is dated July 1, 1987)
Bundles 124-183
Bundles 212-239
Bundles 268-278

The 'gaps' are from the various times in the early years when I subscribed
to the TML in the non-digest mode. Anyway - if you want/need any/all of
these early TML bundles, let me know and we can figure out how to get them
two you in a reasonable manner (total size is in the 5-6 meg zipped
neighborhood ).

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:39:43 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [www] 10 Jul 1999 - Freelance Traveller Updated

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller
Resource has posted its most recent update to
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.html.  

This update features:

 - an article by S. B. Amundson on converting Classic Traveller
worlds to GURPS Traveller

It appears that our last update was not properly processed; the
mirror (at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz) was fully updated, but
the primary site was showing the unupdated site.  We have no idea
why, but we have corrected that situation with this update. Our
apologies for any confusion that this may have caused.

Although our Feedback and Ask Freelance Traveller pages are still
not working, your questions, comments, and ideas are always
welcome at Freelance Traveller.  Please write to
freetrav@hotmail.com with any and all of them.  Freelance
Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us,
making our existence possible.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

> I've been reading through Milieu 0 for ideas for pocket empires and such and
> the ideas of emerging from the Long Night. The 300 years spent recovering
> brought some worlds to the point to attempt contact again. They are in no
> way ready to form another Imperium, if it's even wanted again.
> 
> This is a new campaign for me and is still in the developmental stages. I'll
> post what ever I can to my web page for everyone to read. I'm still working
> on deciding exactly where in known space I will place these pocket empires.
> I'm thinking near the Solomani/Imperial/Aslan Border. Possibly Daibei,
> Zarushagar or Ilelish. I suppose it would be reasonable for a clan of Aslan
> to get up to Ilelish in 300 years... Their'd probably be a lot of Aslan
> expansion during the fall of the 3I. See... their I go again. Always
> thinking up new stuff. I'll be sure to post a link to my website when I put
> up something on this.

It *sounds* like you *really* wanna place the campaign in Reavers' Deep at 
the tail end of the Reavers Era.  RD is just rimward of Ilelish, just 
spinward of Daibei, and across the corner from Zarushagar.  If fitted into a 
standard Imperial 'Domain', it would be the 4th sector.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #845
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 846



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Versions 
Re: Versions 
Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 
Re: Speaking of Ancients...
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant
Re: Why I don't play GT 
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Xenobiology 101 Thread
RE: Speaking of Ancients...
Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P
Re: 'nother ship question
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: new art... comments please
Re: Armour Limits
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
Partial Index to 101 Starships (very long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:39:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> On 07/09/99 at 06:35 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:
> >> >Everything I've read about it convinces me that M:0 is just the TNE without
> >> >the pesky Virus, and with Humaniti still on top of the food chain.  So
> >> >where's the Great Change?
> 
> Actually, my complaint was that it wasn't enough like TNE in that
> there still weren't any really open frontiers or big opponents to
> challenge the new 3I. There *couldn't* be because the story had to
> follow the previously written 1100 years of history. <sigh> 

From what I hear, in M:0, the 3I is pretty much the best-armed bunch around.  
Nobody else is even in their league hardly.  The only thing that slowed them 
down in their expansion was the fact that they had to take time out between 
campaigns of conquest to integrate the new territories into what they already 
had.  In TNE, humaniti had already created its successor species, Virus, and 
had to try and win space back from it.
  
> >I admit I haven't read much of it, only having SM, but
> >I've  also read quite a bit off the web.  And I dunno bout you, but
> >even  considering the inhabitants of cemetary worlds are totally
> >ficticious, it  *still* gets to me sometimes when I read a subsector
> >list with both 1115 and  1200 data in it.  
> 
> ...if it's Survival Margin and the cemetary worlds you think of when
> you think of TNE then yeah it's a very dark world.  As for me, I
> have expressed my problems with the "smash and grab" RCES pirates,
> and certain other details, but I tend to come down on the pro side.

One thing that does come through as being on the brighter side is the 
indomitable human spirit.  The same thing that gets me when I watch ID4 and 
see the prezz's speech just as he heads for his fighter.  "We will *not* go 
quietly into the night, we will *not* go down without a fight, we *will* 
survive..."  Great stuff.

> Sort of, "The last 70 years have been a time of darkness and death,
> now the dawn is coming."  Of course, *I* made the collapse complete
> and 7,000 years long not 70. ;->

That I kinda noticed, but the PCs in your Akus Moby campaign are coming out a 
hundred years or so after humans got back into space in a big way.  Kinda a 
TNE: TNG sorta thing.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:41:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

>  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> 
> >I doubt they'll go to open source.  But still, porting to Linux/x86 would be
> >the hard part.  A couple compiler directives could handle most of the
> >compiling issues if they pay attention to what's going on.  I can't remember
> >off the top of my head if a PPC is big-endian or little-endian.  But if the
> >Mac OSX uses stock Xwindows, it should be easy to port from the x86.
> 
> The PPC can be either big-endian or little-endian IIRC. You tell it which
> when it boots.
> 
> MacOS X will have a MacOS like GUI....

If it uses the standard Xwindows API, then when they port it to Linux, the secondary port will be relatively trivial.  Not trivial, *relatively* trivial, compared to the port to Linux.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:43:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The War Against the Chtorr 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Leonard Erickson writes:
> > "There's also the factor that in the attempt to "Chtorr-form" 
> > Earth, you have to assume that the unseen aliens behind it 
> > have gathered specimens and possibly even set up sample terran 
> > ecologies somewhere. Thus, they can test organisms before 
> > introducing them on Earth.
> >
> > So when they "dump" an organism on Earth, they've already 
> > determined that it's going to be one that walks all over the 
> > local competition."
> >
> >         With an intelligence behind the invasion, one with
> >         advanced understanding of biology and detailed knowledge
> >         of Terran life, I could definitely imagine such a
> >         situation. Some (relatively) simple manipulations might
> >         at least give the invaders resistence to Terran diseases
> >         (to avoid the fate of Wells' Martians). Even if some of 
> >         the invaders fail, they can be replaced.
> 
> There's a lot of speculation that the plague that wiped out much of
> Earth's population my have been the first stage of the attack. No
> evidence of course...

Plenty of evidence, actually.  Seven major strains of plague with no genetic ties to anything seen on Earth at the time.  And some of the plagues were mutagenic.  Some seriously *nasty* stuff.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:10:34 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...

Jesse wrote:
> Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I
> know Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't
> ever remember seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?

One thing to bare in mind about Ancient technology  look-and-feel
is that there were no standards:

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    The most striking aspect of the Ancient technology is not
    its high level (though this is certainly  dramatic),  but
    its diversity.  Of the hundreds of  Ancient  sites  which
    have been excavated and analyzed, each appears to express
    a  different  approach  to   the   problems   solved   by
    technology.  It would  be  easy  to  take  each  site  as
    originating from a different  cultural  or  technological
    background, as the  first  Vilani  spacefarers  theorized
    them to be.

    It appears that each site involved  the  near  total  re-
    invention  of  the  most   basic   building   blocks   of
    technology.  One site might use familiar screw fasteners,
    while another would depend  on  adhesives  for  the  same
    task; still others  would  use  rivets,  or  interlocking
    ellipsoids, or simple plastic clasps.  While one  sites's
    computers and electronics show evidence of  depending  on
    silicon  chip  circuits,  another  performed   the   same
    functions with fiber optics,  still  another  used  fluid
    dynamics, and yet another channelled heat transfer.  Even
    writing, data formats, recording  formats,  systems,  and
    standards  vary  between  sites.  While   the   high-tech
    equipment discovered is fully compatible within  a  site,
    rarely do artifacts from different sites show any ability
    to function together.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                 p4-5, Alien Module 5: Droyne
                                                     GDW 1985

Thus the ship and floating facility  featured  in  "Secret Of The
Ancients" seem to be organic in appearance,  while  at  the  same
time the city on Albert (a moon of  Victoria/Lanth)  featured  in
JTAS 2 is descibed as being of cast stone and almost crystalline.

So if you are  going  to  create  artwork  featuring  an  Ancient
starship ... anything will do.  Canon is there is no canon!



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:35:09 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

Glenn wrote:
> David Smart wrote:
> > Would some of you mind giving me ideas on how to handle/
> > explain the difference (legally) between a merc cruiser and a
> > merchant cruiser? What would/could be the legal ramifications
> > of operating one over the other in terms of Imperial and
> > planetary law?
>
> I'm not sure what you're talking about.  "Merchant", a civilian
> term, doesn't go with "cruiser", a naval ship type.  

Within the context of Traveller the term does have a specific
canon definition:

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Merchant Cruisers:  A generic  term  applied  to  vessels
    specifically assigned to independent missions, the  prime
    objective of which is market discovery  and  acquisition,
    either in isolation or in competion with  other  merchant
    operators.  Design parameters for  such  vessels  usually
    include a high level of weaponry and auxiliary  boats  in
    proportion to  their  cargo  capacity  and  all  possible
    back-up systems, along with high structural integrity.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                                 Library Data
                                       Adventure 4: Leviathan
                                                     GDW 1980

Just nit-picking.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:43:53 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Battle Thong-12 and rant

Chris Seamans wrote
> > Good God! I just cant wait for the gearheads to mull over
> > this one!
> >
> > "is it Super Dense or Bonded Laminates g string?"
> 
> Would that be fair or good streamlining?

Hmmm ... which chaffs less after prolonged wear?

(Note to self: remember to add optional hypo-alergenic coating to
wearable equipment lists ... also pistol grips, etc.)



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:51:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT 

> >Reavers' Deep, so the Spinward Marches stuff doesn't help me a bit.  What
> I'd
> >like to know, though, is there any warfare rules or chrome in First In?
> 
> Not sure what you mean. There *is* plenty of *good stuff* in First In.
> Actually, a huge portion of the book consists of a system for designing star
> systems. It's basically a much expanded Book 6: Scouts.

I was meaning, are there any rules in it that show what scouts do in wartime.
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:02:24 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

> On 07/10/99 at 01:17 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:
> >> The Solomani, controlled by fanatics, overextend themselves
> >> attacking Earth and pushing beyond.  The beginning of the end for
> >> these fanatics is when the people of Earth reject them and there is
> >> a crisis of confidence in the whole concept of Solomani as supermen.
> >> A rising tide of revolts and wars sweep over the Rim and all the
> >> peoples the Solomani have been oppressing rise up against them and
> >> the within a few years the Rim is in the same state as the former
> >> Imperium.
> 
> >That's about my take on it.  In Reavers' Deep, after putting up with
> >the  Union of Harmony and Union of Purity idiots for long enough,
> >listening to  their Solomani supremacist rantings for centuries, the
> >locals decided to  finally stomp them out and have some peace and
> >quiet for a change.  <grin>
> 
> Yeah, and I picture the same happening all over the Rim. 
> 
> To be honest, I've always ignored the K'kree and Hivers, and not
> paid much attention to the Aslan either.  I suspect the problem with
> a big long breakup is that these groups would move into the vacuum.
> And to be fair, having a deux e machina <sp> like Virus to savage
> these surrounding groups is a good way to handle the situation from
> a post-event game play POV.  I don't want to start a Virus debate,
> here.  You can love it, hate it, believe it or disbelieve it as far
> as I'm concerned.  To me it was just an equal opportunity wreaking
> ball that was used to collapse *everybody* and their neighbor. 

The Hivers would be sitting back watching everything, of course, as an 
experiment in Manipulation.  The K'Kree would be busy moving into the vacuum 
created in Hinterworlds, Old Expanses, and Ley Sectors.  They'd take it slow, 
of course, to make sure they could whack out any carnivores they found there 
and to make sure the omnivores they took over behaved themselves.

The Aslan are a different story.  4 clans made up the signatories of the 
Peace of Ftahalr, and while Solomani movements in Reavers' Deep and Dark 
Nebula were technical violations of the Peace, they tried holding the line 
against the ihaeti to keep them pouring into Deneb instead of into Reavers' 
Deep, where they probably would have become a unifying force for humaniti.

But you're right about Virus being a one size fits all wrecking ball.
 
> >I *still* haven't figured out where Argent & the Zeritsu Empire are
> >from in your game.  
> 
> Astrophysically or culturally?
> 
> Well, it's been several thousand years since MTU's Imperium died,
> and that might or might not have been the 3rd Imperium, IAC.  IMTU,
> jump maps don't correspond to real space maps one to one so many of
> the spacial relationships have changed...if they ever *were* the
> same.  ;->

After 4 to 7000 years, yeah, I can see that.
 
> Everyone went through the "madness" where virtually all knowledge
> was lost thousands of years ago.  So, technology and culture has
> been relearned along arbitrary paths. Argent and Zeristu correspond
> to no standard Traveller culture, and neither does Mark, Muan Gwi,
> Montrose or Newton.  Now, they *might* correspond to my impressions
> of various Earth cultures during different eras, but I'm not going
> to say more than that.  ;-p

I've got some guesses.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:35:06 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>Why is the damage dependent on acceleration?  Relative velocity I can
>understand, but the acceleration is meaningless (unless you integrate over
>time, in which case you end up with velocity anyway).

Sorry. Sloppy writing on my part - I was using 'Gs' (incorrectly) as a shorthand
for relative velocity. It says "relative velocity" in the book. Also the
reference I gave should have been GT page 169.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:18:16 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 Thread

On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 13:02:24 -0400 (EDT), SD Mooney
<dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:

>Is someone going to compile this and put it on a website? It looks good.

Robert has already written to me saying he's working on a
comprehensive article series on this, which I _will_ post on
Freelance Traveller.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:36:11 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients...

OoooOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo........free artistic reign **VWEG**
[[insert evil laughing here]]

Thanks!!
Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter L.S.
> Trevor
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 7:11 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...
> 
> 
> Jesse wrote:
> > Are there any canon picture references of Ancient starships?  I
> > know Knightfall has pictures of some architecture, but I don't
> > ever remember seeing any ships anywhere.  Anyone seen any?
> 
> One thing to bare in mind about Ancient technology  look-and-feel
> is that there were no standards:
> 
>     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>     The most striking aspect of the Ancient technology is not
>     its high level (though this is certainly  dramatic),  but
>     its diversity.  Of the hundreds of  Ancient  sites  which
>     have been excavated and analyzed, each appears to express
>     a  different  approach  to   the   problems   solved   by
>     technology.  It would  be  easy  to  take  each  site  as
>     originating from a different  cultural  or  technological
>     background, as the  first  Vilani  spacefarers  theorized
>     them to be.
> 
>     It appears that each site involved  the  near  total  re-
>     invention  of  the  most   basic   building   blocks   of
>     technology.  One site might use familiar screw fasteners,
>     while another would depend  on  adhesives  for  the  same
>     task; still others  would  use  rivets,  or  interlocking
>     ellipsoids, or simple plastic clasps.  While one  sites's
>     computers and electronics show evidence of  depending  on
>     silicon  chip  circuits,  another  performed   the   same
>     functions with fiber optics,  still  another  used  fluid
>     dynamics, and yet another channelled heat transfer.  Even
>     writing, data formats, recording  formats,  systems,  and
>     standards  vary  between  sites.  While   the   high-tech
>     equipment discovered is fully compatible within  a  site,
>     rarely do artifacts from different sites show any ability
>     to function together.
>     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>                                  p4-5, Alien Module 5: Droyne
>                                                      GDW 1985
> 
> Thus the ship and floating facility  featured  in  "Secret Of The
> Ancients" seem to be organic in appearance,  while  at  the  same
> time the city on Albert (a moon of  Victoria/Lanth)  featured  in
> JTAS 2 is descibed as being of cast stone and almost crystalline.
> 
> So if you are  going  to  create  artwork  featuring  an  Ancient
> starship ... anything will do.  Canon is there is no canon!
> 
> 
> 
> Regards PLST
> "Rome wasn't burned in a day."
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:30:46 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P

Hey there Paul, I'll take all your 1987 Archives..
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:31:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 'nother ship question

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> No, no, no.  Not THAT one.  I mean the page that's marked "3" and is the
> second page of the "Contents".
> 
> Jesse

Oops!

That one, damfino. It's got what looks like a fighter attached, and 6,
possibly seven turrets, maybe those side things are bay weapons, yet it looks
pretty small, 150-200 DT...looks like an SDB to me. Ask Loren, he'll know who
did it....

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:41:57 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

At 01:55 PM 10/07/99 -0700, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:

>I know binary stars can revolve around a common center of mass, but can a
>companion star orbit the primary like a super-sized Jupiter on fire? With or
>without fries, hold the cheese, please. What of trinary systems? I can't see
>all three stars revolving around a single common center of gravity, does one
>automatically orbit the first two? Can two stars orbit a primary? What are
>the % chances of each type of system? Do some steller types preclude others
>in multiple star systems? Could a singularity be part of a systems "family"?
>I seem to recall some science article hypothesising a black-hole orbiting
>some star "out there".

All bodies (stars & planets) orbit around a common center of mass.
However, when one body is much more massive than the other, that common
center will be close to or within the more massive body, and it looks like
it is stationary as the other body orbits it.  An example is the Earth-Moon
system - if you watched them from above, you'd see the Earth is 'wobbling'
off-center around a point <mumble> km beneath the it's surface, on the side
facing the moon.

However, the mass of main-sequence stars don't vary all that much (0.1 to
10 solar masses), and binaries tend to be quite close in mass to each
other.  A third star would have to be far enough out to orbit the inner
pair's center of mass.  If it's too close the arrangement would be
unstable.  A 4-star system would be two binary pairs orbit a common center
of mass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:41:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
> 
> > Not sure what you mean. There *is* plenty of *good stuff* in First In.
> > Actually, a huge portion of the book consists of a system for designing star
> > systems. It's basically a much expanded Book 6: Scouts.
> >
> > However, I don't believe there are any rules for warfare in First In. It's
> > all about the scouts.
> >
> Would you advise a CT type guy to go ahead and spring for First In, or
> should I try to get a copy of Scouts? Or are there other sources? I am
> looking to expand my home rules system building, and would like to know more
> about the Steller Data rules, as I want to include varient Jump Drive
> systems that rely on star type/size ala MiGE Alderson Drives. 

First In has everything that B6 has plus pretty much everything that World
Builders Handbook has, so from an economy standpoint, FI is _definitely_ the
better deal. Plus, it's in print.

It's also quite well done. IMHO.

For variant drive technology, though, you'll have to find a copy of FFS or
FFS2; that's where that stuff is explained. Gurps Space has that kind of
stuff, too.

You'll have to be careful though...Jump Drive is sort of like the internal
combustion engine technology for cars...there's a reason everyone uses pretty
much one kind of technology...you'll get occasional designs that are
different, but they have to provide very significant advantages for them to be
other than curiosities. And if they offer those kinds of advantages, they'll
rapidly replace jump drives...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:44:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: new art... comments please

LOVE the ships name!

Michael Peters wrote:
> 
> Well, it's a very minor attempt at 3d art, nowhere close to Jesse but it
> is Traveller related so please check it out and let me know what you
> think.
> 
> it's located at:
> http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:38:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>Robert Prior wrote:
>>
>
>> Why is the damage dependent on acceleration?  Relative velocity I can
>> understand, but the acceleration is meaningless (unless you integrate over
>> time, in which case you end up with velocity anyway).
>>
>
>Well forgive me for sounding dumb, Rob, but doesn't velocity add to the
>mass of a projectile?  Don't you add a projectile's kinetic force to the
>damage upon impact?

Velocity increasing mass only happens at relativistic speeds -- not
something usually encountered in a Traveller space battle.

Velocity _does_ matter for kinetic energy: Ek = 1/2 * mass * velocity ** 2

The problem I had was that the original poster (forget who) said that the
damage for a missile was related to "relative acceleration". After finally
digging out GT I see that it's related to relative _velocity_, which is
what it should be, although the relationship is linear (which isn't quite
correct but I can accept it as a reasonable gaming simplification, seeing
as so many gamers seem to find arithmetic hard during the game).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:38:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

>Within the context of Traveller the term does have a specific
>canon definition:
>
>    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>    Merchant Cruisers:  A generic  term  applied  to  vessels
>    specifically assigned to independent missions, the  prime
>    objective of which is market discovery  and  acquisition,
>    either in isolation or in competion with  other  merchant
>    operators.  Design parameters for  such  vessels  usually
>    include a high level of weaponry and auxiliary  boats  in
>    proportion to  their  cargo  capacity  and  all  possible
>    back-up systems, along with high structural integrity.
>    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>                                                 Library Data
>                                       Adventure 4: Leviathan
>                                                     GDW 1980
>
>Just nit-picking.

Further background: "cruiser" originally meant a ship intended to cruise -
that is, stay out of port for a long time. In Traveller the term cruiser is
sometimes used in this sense (eg. merchant cruiser) and sometimes in the
sense of a well armers, agile, lightly armoured military ship.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:38:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Partial Index to 101 Starships (very long)

Here it is. Any suggestions for improvement?


Background
	corporations
		Akerut 4
		Bilstein Yards 10, 64
		GSbAG 46
		Instellarms 30
		Ling Standard Products 30
		Meladin Lines 23
		Tukera Lines 4, 6, 23
	events
		Battle of Porozlo 63
		Cameroon Incident 5
		Core-Marches Race 45
		Fifth Frontier War 16, 23, 60, 65
		Mora Vintners' Trophy 2
		Nth Interstellar War 19
		Seige of Rhylanor 63
		Solomani Rim War 19, 26, 34, 70, 71
		Third Frontier War 63
	famous ships
		Brass Goat 14
		Colossus 66
		Ragnarok 5
		Stunnenge 63
		Swari 2
		Titanic 66
	organizations
		Imperial Naval Intelligence 16, 19, 23, 35, 37, 50, 64
		SolSec 5
	people
		Alpaq, Sir Edwin 14
		Fitzwilliam, Sir Ennra 45
		Muodray 61
		Packer, Captain Augusta 5
		Petros, Captain 63
	worlds
		Cameroon 5
		Glisten 57
		Narsil 16
		Porozlo 63
		Rhylanor 63
		Sacnoth 16
Civilian Encounters
	Droyne Worlds
		Fedmist 25
		Oskrip 54
	Solomani Confederation
		Anhk 3
		Antill 3
		Bargam 7
		Cairngorm 16
		Faunel 24
		Furgal 28
		Gnortz 31
		Ibex 35
		Ingham 36
		Iridescent Poodle 37
		Malthus 45
		Monnin 49
		Muirhead 50
		Olythnos 52
		Rori 58
		Tte Jaune 65
		Triku 68
		Yarmouth 75
	Sword Worlds
		Kjerre 39
		Kjerre II 40
		Knorr 40
		Wain 72
	Third Imperium
		Aablan 1
		Ampi 2
		Anhk 3
		Aramine 4
		Ariasa 5
		Astron 6
		Bargam 7
		Belasmon 10
		Bergen 11
		Bharapar 12
		Brass Goat 14
		Cardos 17
		Chiitaa 17
		Chiral 17
		Dsarpa 22
		Empress Nicole 23
		tienne 24
		Furgal 28
		Gnortz 31
		Ibex 35
		Jelnai 38
		Komar 40
		Kyzan 43
		Luusitar 43
		Luustani 44
		Mallory 45
		Mauripo 46
		Moonii 49
		Morag 49
		Murbles 50
		Murpak 51
		Nahiin 51
		Nostrii 51
		Oskra 53
		Permain 54
		Quotal 57
		Rikiamid 57
		Rori 58
		S'donath 58
		Selanai 59
		Tedoaraq 64
		Toves 66
		Tralsa 67
		Umburko 69
		Vanderpelt 69
		Wirimethar 73
		Yarmouth 75
		Zentak 76
		Zeramine 76
	Vargr Extents
		Furgal 28
	Zhodani Consulate
		Enzhyiench 24
		Kriaplezh 41
		Tch'atl 64
Naval Forces
	Droyne Worlds
		Kroydon 42
		Ssaybom 61
	Mercenary Units
		Banshee 7
		Berry 12
		Cytos 20
		Dumont 23
		Gheilfa 30
		Gnat 31
		Jumo 39
		Kraki 41
		Midge 48
		Murka 50
		Olmeka 52
		Pugilist 56
		Steadfast 61
		Uruq 69
	Planetary Navy
		Banshee 7
		Clorthal 18
		Drakgki 22
		Gefros 30
		Gheilfa 30
		Gnat 31
		Irbak 37
		Irumskla 37
		Joritz 38
		Jumo 39
		Kyzan 43
		Megalith 47
		Midge 48
		Miiriimak 48
		Nova's Roar 52
		Olmeka 52
		Rochelle 57
		Steadfast 61
		Stunnenge 63
		Trikon 67
		Uruq 69
	Solomani Confederation
		Armageddon 5
		Auldwich 6
		Batoche 9
		Bayonet 9
		Berghoff 11
		Birkenhead 13
		Burtoine 15
		Congreve 19
		Corannis 19
		Dartmouth 20
		Dieppe 21
		Fermouche 26
		Hoplite 34
		Hun 34
		Imp 35
		Intrepid 36
		Jupiter 39
		Langsdale 43
		M'gee 44
		MacDonnell 45
		Maniakes 46
		Melbourne 47
		Pugnacious 56
		Rorke 58
		Sarta 59
		Steadfast 61
		Trikon 67
		Ubervisch 68
		Velroi 70
		von Braun 71
	Sword Worlds
		Angbar 2
		Arasfor 4
		Beowulf 10
		Blgebryter 16
		Elding 23
		Fellbane 25
		Grendel 32
		Helm 33
		Holgrim 34
		Hvort 35
		Slatrari 60
		Sveinhelm 64
	Third Imperium
		Baboon 7
		Barlax 8
		Barlax II 8
		Berry 12
		Bilanos 13
		Brighton 15
		Cholath 18
		Citadel 18
		Cytos 20
		Defiance 21
		Drauna 22
		Flamboyant Monkey 27
		Fortress 27
		Ftenrik 28
		Fury 29
		Garyan 29
		Geist 30
		Haritti 33
		Irushma 38
		Kuru 42
		Monfraki 48
		Murka 50
		Osiron 53
		Pheidippides 54
		Polesta 55
		Solon 60
		Stromali 62
		Temaughi 65
		Thespia 65
		Traskon 67
		Viodak 70
		Vuki 72
		Warhoud 73
		Wylbur 75
		Yelsin 76
	Vargr Extents
		Aekguthang 1
		Gvergh 32
	Zhodani Consulate
		Tlach'dev 66
Ships
	auxiliaries
		Angbar
			Sveinhelm 64
		Assault Cutter
			Defiance 21
		[snip]
	battleships
		Beowulf 10
		Brighton 15
		[snip]
	carriers
		Kosigar 41
		Sveinhelm 64
		[snip]
	corvettes
		Temaughi 65
	couriers
		Pheidippides 54
		S'donath 58
	cruisers
		Armageddon 5
		Defiance 21
		[snip]
	destroyers
		Arasfor 4
		Auldwich 6
		[snip]
	escorts
		Berghoff 11
		Congreve 19
		[snip]
	fighters
		Banshee 7
		Bayonet 9
		[snip]
	freighters
		Aablan 1
		Ampi 2
		[snip]
	frigates
		Bilanos 13
		Dartmouth 20, 35
		[snip]
	liners
		Aramine 4
		Belasmon 10
		[snip]
	merchants
		Aablan 1
		Ampi 2
		[snip]
	miscellaneous ships
		Baboon 7
		Brass Goat 14
		[snip]
	planetoid ships
		Rochelle 57
		Stunnenge 63
	scouts
		Geist 30
		Nostrii 51
		[snip]
	small craft
		Aekguthang 1
		Angbar 2
		[snip]
	subsidized merchants
		Ariasa 5
		Bharapar 12
		[snip]
	system defense boats
		Blgebryter 16
		Gefros 30
		[snip]
	traders
		Antill 3
		Astron 6
		[snip]
	transports
		Ftenrik 28
	warships
		Aekguthang 1
		Angbar 2
		[snip]
	yachts
		Brass Goat 14
		Cardos 17
		[snip]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #846
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 847



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: new art... comments please
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser
RE: Speaking of Ancients...
RE: Speaking of Ancients...
Re: Why I don't play GT 
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: new art... comments please
Re: Armour Limits
Re: 'nother ship question
Re: new art... comments please
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
Re: Battledress...
Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P
re: new art... comments please
RE: new art... comments please
Re: Why I don't play GT 
GURPS lite
Re: new art... comments please 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:31:24 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: new art... comments please

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> LOVE the ships name!
> 

Thanks Bruce, I'm a BIG fan of airplane nose art, so I tend to tag my
ships with those kinds of names.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:40:08 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>

> >I don't have the droyne aliens supplement, but none of the references I've
> >seen point out any specific psionics use. Why were they so hated?
> 
> Droyne have quite a bit of psionic power.  Droyne and chirpers have a form
> of invisibility (effects the mind of the viewer, not the light waves
> themselves), droyne have a wide array of other powers, including telepathy
> and teleporation.
> But this stuff is explained in the supplement.  You might want to get it if
> you plan on doing anything with droyne as a focus.  GT supposedly has a
> droyne book in the works too.

Yes, we know this, but when do these facts become known in the
Imperium?  I'm not at all clear on some of this myself.

- --Glenn

Paranoid thought for the day:  The Hivers are actually a Droyne
manipulation!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:45:58 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law: Merc Cruiser vs. Merchant Cruiser

> From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>

> Glenn wrote:
[deletion]
> > I'm not sure what you're talking about.  "Merchant", a civilian
> > term, doesn't go with "cruiser", a naval ship type.  
> 
> Within the context of Traveller the term does have a specific
> canon definition:
> 
>     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>     Merchant Cruisers:  A generic  term  applied  to  vessels
[deletion]
>                                                  Library Data
>                                        Adventure 4: Leviathan
>                                                      GDW 1980
> 
> Just nit-picking.

That nit was well-picked.  I developed a blind spot about Adventure 4 as
soon as I got to the part about the jump torpedos, and still suppress
everything about it almost twenty years later.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:51:51 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients...

> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>

> OoooOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo........free artistic reign **VWEG**

In keeping with our nitpicking tradition, I'll note that it's "free
rein", as in holding an animal's control strap loosely.  "Free reign" in
this context suggests absolute rule by the artists (not part of the
canon UPP).  In my Traveller universe, at least, visiting such a world
would be, let's say, a little trying.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:22:16 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients...

Picky-picky :)
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M.
> Goffin
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 6:52 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients...
> 
> 
> > From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
> 
> > OoooOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo........free artistic reign **VWEG**
> 
> In keeping with our nitpicking tradition, I'll note that it's "free
> rein", as in holding an animal's control strap loosely.  "Free reign" in
> this context suggests absolute rule by the artists (not part of the
> canon UPP).  In my Traveller universe, at least, visiting such a world
> would be, let's say, a little trying.
> 
> --Glenn
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:41:20 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT 

>I was meaning, are there any rules in it that show what scouts do in
wartime.

Clearly spelled out. Exploration branch (First In Scouts) act as recon units
for the Imperial Navy.  XBoats and Courier vessels carry military
correspondence. Survey vessels perform intelligence surveillance.



Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:10:00 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

> From: Richard Wilson 
> 
> At 11:16 AM 7/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >SD Mooney wrote:
> >> 
> >> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
> >> 
> >> >Mark Urbin wrote:
> >> >> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
> >> >>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
> >> >>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
> >> >>  >Virus . . .
> >> >>
> >> >> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
> >> >> comfortable shoes...
> >> >
> >> >And said, "G'day, Sheilas," while he loaded his shoulder-fired
> >> >Penguin launcher.
> >> 
> >> >From the Feudal Technocracy were he was hiding out, having debated
the
> >> effeciveness of fighter swarms against capital ships....
> >
> >...Said capital ships communicating with base via jump torpedoes.

His armour was maroon, with a lime-green helmet, to avoid unwanted
attention from IRIS.

"Very fashionable", the Ithklur thought, as he adjusted his Santa Claus
cap.  "I wonder if he likes Corn Dogs".

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:46:18 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

(I've stuck in bits of three different posts on this thread here.  I hope
it doesn't confuse anyone.)

> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
> On 07/10/99 at 07:39 PM,  "Alan Bradley" said:
> 
> >> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
> >> The Zeristu and the Marches are having their own troubles.  In the
> >> first place the Vargr and the Aslan are boiling into the area from
> >> opposite directions.  
> >......
> >> IAC, by 1140 or so, you've got complete chaos from one end of known
> >> space to the other.  
> 
> >"Blatant anti-Vargr prejudice!
> 
> No, it isn't. ;->
> 
> >The Vargr have maintained an interstellar civilization for millenia,
> >and _still_ humans persist in regarding us as barbarians!
> 
> Yes, but to a human that interstellar civilization *is* chaos. 
> 
> >Is it any wonder that some of us raid you?"
> 
> It's probably only some, because the rest are too busy raiding each
> other. ;-p

Well at least _we_ never had a Long Night.  Even if civilisation were to
fail in one area, it would prosper in another.  If your Imperium fell, it
would be a disaster for you - and an opportunity for us.

The irony is, of course, _some_ humans would prosper - those who are
friends of the Vargr!


> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
> To be honest, I've always ignored the K'kree and Hivers, and not
> paid much attention to the Aslan either.  I suspect the problem with
> a big long breakup is that these groups would move into the vacuum.
> And to be fair, having a deux e machina <sp> like Virus to savage
> these surrounding groups is a good way to handle the situation from
> a post-event game play POV.  I don't want to start a Virus debate,
> here.  You can love it, hate it, believe it or disbelieve it as far
> as I'm concerned.  To me it was just an equal opportunity wreaking
> ball that was used to collapse *everybody* and their neighbor. 

As I mentioned above in Vargr-voice:  unless they get taken out too, a
'Long Night' for Imperial humans is no big deal to the Vargr.  Some
cross-border trade will be lost, but opportunities for raiding and
extortion would increase.

That's why something like Virus would be necessary.  The other potential
plot devices, like the Empress Wave or Sparklers or whatever could also be
used, provided that the affect the Vargr too.  The supposed psionic effects
of the Empress Wave wouldn't necessarily do much to push over Vargr
civilisation, but it wasn't meant to in the TNE setting, where it had
already mostly been done by Virus.

> From: "Eris Reddoch" 
> "Shawn Campbell" said:
> 
> >This is nearly exactly what I have pictured and have designed for
> >MTU. I moved the date a little farther forward to 1483. I created a
> >couple of struggling pocket empires just emerging from the 2nd night.
> >Known space is about a 16 parsec diameter. (about two subsectors)
> 
> I really like that idea. Tell us more!
> 
> >I had imagined the Imperium having collapsed, seeing as Hard Times
> >brought the safes down to 1-2 subsectors and many of the worlds
> >between were ravaged. It's hard to imagine expansion any time soon. I
> >pictured a similiar result to the end of the Rule of Man, another
> >Long Night. (the 2nd Night) I gave it 3 centuries to recover in the
> >corner of space I'm playing in.
> 
> Yes, you are right, it should have taken longer. 
> 
> IMTU I wreaked things even more throughly, no safes...everything
> ravaged, and it took several *thousand* years to recover.  A
> *really* long night.  ;-> Out of it are coming different cultures
> *and* different technologies.  To these folks, the Third Imperium
> (if that's what it was) is the Ancients, or one set of many Ancients
> actually ,and the stuff of myth and story.

But you would have to push over the Vargr, Aslan and whatnot as well.  Even
in terms of kind-of human societies, the Julian Protectorate would be still
there, probably with some Brzk and Vilani faction loyalists dotted around.

The resulting societies wouldn't be quite the same, but interstellar
civilisations _would_ exist at the fringes of the Imperium.  How long it
would take them to spread into the Imperial core is anyone's guess, but as
long as there's something to trade for or steal, people will try to do it. 
Even Virus didn't prevent traders/raiders from operating out of the Regency
and Vargr splinters into the Wilds.

Hmm.  I seem to be becoming the TML's "Token Vargr".  This is a worry,
since I'm also designing my Civil War game.  I'm obviously going to have to
place it in one of the coreward sectors, where I can keep practicing my
Vargr-voice.  Maybe Lishun - not much has been written about it.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:18:34 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: new art... comments please

At 04:08 PM 10/07/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, it's a very minor attempt at 3d art, nowhere close to Jesse but it
>is Traveller related so please check it out and let me know what you
>think.

        Hi, Mike!
        I like it.  The layout is good and I like the crest in the
foreground like that.  What package are you using?

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:32:19 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

> correct but I can accept it as a reasonable gaming simplification, seeing
> as so many gamers seem to find arithmetic hard during the game).
> 

Understatement for me, I flunked pre-algebra.  Just never got it.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 22:34:50 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: 'nother ship question

On 07/10/99 at 10:06 AM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>It's an exploding ships boat in front of a Lab ship.  See TNE main
>rule book p371, or MT Imperial Encyclopedia p83.

Isn't it probably an exploding Modular Cutter in front of the Lab ship?  Well, okay it could be a ship's boat too, but that's not the one on page 3 of GT. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:38:45 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: new art... comments please

Raydream Studio 5.0 for the modeling and rendering. I did the bump maps
and textures in CorelDraw then converted them to bitmaps. Since this is
really a first attempt (played with some other models but this is the
first "complete" drawing I've tried) I'm fairly proud of it! 

mike

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> 
>         Hi, Mike!
>         I like it.  The layout is good and I like the crest in the
> foreground like that.  What package are you using?
> 
>         --Michel
>  
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 99 23:49:56 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

On 07/11/99 at 01:46 PM,  "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> said:

>> IMTU I wreaked things even more throughly, no safes...everything
>> ravaged, and it took several *thousand* years to recover.  A
>> *really* long night.  ;-> Out of it are coming different cultures
>> *and* different technologies.  To these folks, the Third Imperium
>> (if that's what it was) is the Ancients, or one set of many Ancients
>> actually ,and the stuff of myth and story.

>But you would have to push over the Vargr, Aslan and whatnot as well.

When I said "no safes...everything ravaged," I meant everything!
Aslan, Vargr, K'kree, Hivers...you name it.  IMTU, the stories about
"the madness" talk about a galaxy wide disaster where all races
fought to the death, where machines and even space itself rose up
against life, and when it was all over *everyone* was thrown back to
the stone age.  Whether the stories are hyperbole or not, is up to
the characters to figure out...if they so desire.  ;-> 

BTW, there are scattered groups of Vargr here and there in the area
they PC's are familar with, and rumors of more coreward. 

Eris
AKU GM

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:02:10 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Battledress...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 12:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Battledress...
>
>
> >Oh that?  Sorry... but I'm not trying to publish my views for payment,
and
> >was referencing from past publications and taking into account that, for
a
>
>
> <shrug> I feel I've made my point, and you still haven't answered whether
or
> not you're actively trying to start a flamewar.
>
>
>

Just so you don't lose anymore sleep over it... No, I am not trying to start
a flame war.  Now you can sleep again.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 01:08:56 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P

BTW, I used that Stuffit from the Aladdin site and it won't decode those
.z files from the Xboat directory either.

Here is a sample filename :

xboat-v1996-n000-n009_bun.z

After installing Alladin's "Stuffit Expander", these files are now
labeled 
Alladin Stuffit Archives, but when I try to open one I ge this error :

"The data read from this archive or encoded file was not in the expected
format"


- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:22:15 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: re: new art... comments please

Good to see yet another TML'er having a go at 3D!!!!  Nice composition with
good "nose room" for the ship.  Good early attempt.  I shudder while
thinking about my own early (and long-since-deleted) first attempts.  We all
have to start somewhere :)  I started with trueSpace v2 for about $350
versus the $1800 (+ plugins) that I currently use in Lightwave v5.6.

I'll be perfectly honest in the nit-pick department (I am with Andy and he
is with me after all :).  I think the turret is too tall and the turret base
too high as well.  With a hard wedge like the Sulieman and the ship you have
here, you want the top of the turret base slightly above flush at it's
highest point (the rear).  Then you want the turret to be slightly less than
half a flattened sphere.  This gives it a decent streamlined performance
when entering the atmosphere.  Along with the streamlining goes "burn
mapping" on the texture maps.  It adds an extra dimension of "reality"
(kinda' funny eh considering the topic?) to the model.  The manuever jets
would be next.  The jet nozzles should be black holes with a lighter color
around it, not the other way around.  They also need to be balanced.  If
you're useing a single front jet as opposed to dual, then it needs to be
centered instead of offset.  If it's offset like you show than you'll impart
an un-wanted roll when useing them.

I've been working a little bit with Andy Akins (the LF-78 pics at his site
are the result) in e-mail useing Lightwave.  With any luck I'll soon be
doing teh same with Mark Cook :)  I've never used Raydream, though from what
little I've seen it appears to have enough texture control to get you at
least in the neighborhood.  If you want I can forward you the mini texture
tutorial that I did for Andy when he first started.  I -think- I still have
that at work :)

Best,
Jesse

p.s.  I'm sending an edited version of this to the TML as well minus the
nit-picks.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> Peters
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 9:39 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: new art... comments please
>
>
>
> Raydream Studio 5.0 for the modeling and rendering. I did the bump maps
> and textures in CorelDraw then converted them to bitmaps. Since this is
> really a first attempt (played with some other models but this is the
> first "complete" drawing I've tried) I'm fairly proud of it!
>
> mike
>
> Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> >
> >         Hi, Mike!
> >         I like it.  The layout is good and I like the crest in the
> > foreground like that.  What package are you using?
> >
> >         --Michel
> >
> --
> Mike Peters
> travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:30:26 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: new art... comments please

Ooops.  Meant to send that directly to Mike.  I'd cut and paste his address
into the "To:" field, but for some reason it didn't take...

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jesse
> DeGraff
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 12:22 AM
> To: Traveller@Mpgn. Com
> Subject: re: new art... comments please
>
>
>
> Good to see yet another TML'er having a go at 3D!!!!  Nice
> composition with
> good "nose room" for the ship.  Good early attempt.  I shudder while
> thinking about my own early (and long-since-deleted) first
> attempts.  We all
> have to start somewhere :)  I started with trueSpace v2 for about $350
> versus the $1800 (+ plugins) that I currently use in Lightwave v5.6.
>
> I'll be perfectly honest in the nit-pick department (I am with Andy and he
> is with me after all :).  I think the turret is too tall and the
> turret base
> too high as well.  With a hard wedge like the Sulieman and the
> ship you have
> here, you want the top of the turret base slightly above flush at it's
> highest point (the rear).  Then you want the turret to be
> slightly less than
> half a flattened sphere.  This gives it a decent streamlined performance
> when entering the atmosphere.  Along with the streamlining goes "burn
> mapping" on the texture maps.  It adds an extra dimension of "reality"
> (kinda' funny eh considering the topic?) to the model.  The manuever jets
> would be next.  The jet nozzles should be black holes with a lighter color
> around it, not the other way around.  They also need to be balanced.  If
> you're useing a single front jet as opposed to dual, then it needs to be
> centered instead of offset.  If it's offset like you show than
> you'll impart
> an un-wanted roll when useing them.
>
> I've been working a little bit with Andy Akins (the LF-78 pics at his site
> are the result) in e-mail useing Lightwave.  With any luck I'll soon be
> doing teh same with Mark Cook :)  I've never used Raydream,
> though from what
> little I've seen it appears to have enough texture control to get you at
> least in the neighborhood.  If you want I can forward you the mini texture
> tutorial that I did for Andy when he first started.  I -think- I
> still have
> that at work :)
>
> Best,
> Jesse
>
> p.s.  I'm sending an edited version of this to the TML as well minus the
> nit-picks.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> > Peters
> > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 9:39 PM
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> > Subject: Re: new art... comments please
> >
> >
> >
> > Raydream Studio 5.0 for the modeling and rendering. I did the bump maps
> > and textures in CorelDraw then converted them to bitmaps. Since this is
> > really a first attempt (played with some other models but this is the
> > first "complete" drawing I've tried) I'm fairly proud of it!
> >
> > mike
> >
> > Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
> > >
> > >         Hi, Mike!
> > >         I like it.  The layout is good and I like the crest in the
> > > foreground like that.  What package are you using?
> > >
> > >         --Michel
> > >
> > --
> > Mike Peters
> > travelleri@home.com
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 05:15:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Why I don't play GT 

> >I was meaning, are there any rules in it that show what scouts do in
> wartime.
> 
> Clearly spelled out. Exploration branch (First In Scouts) act as recon units
> for the Imperial Navy.  XBoats and Courier vessels carry military
> correspondence. Survey vessels perform intelligence surveillance.

Thanxx.  *THAT'S* the kind of info I needed to know.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:23:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: GURPS lite

If you're not sure about GT, or GURPS generally, and have resisted
downloading GURPS-lite as it was 1.8Mb, I notice that SJG have reduced it
to <450kb unzipped. It may be worth downloading a copy now...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 05:24:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: new art... comments please 

> Michael Peters wrote:
> > 
> > Well, it's a very minor attempt at 3d art, nowhere close to Jesse but it
> > is Traveller related so please check it out and let me know what you
> > think.
> > 
> > it's located at:
> > http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm
> 
> LOVE the ships name!

Got *THAT* right.

Seriously, Mike, you've got the basis of a truly 5 star site starting there.  
Can't wait to see what else you come up with.
 
Hyphen, you payin attention??

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #847
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 848



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 
Re: Versions
Re: Versions 
Re: Versions 
Brown Dwarfs
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: and now to something completely different
Infiltration Shuttle (GTL 10 & 12)
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: Armour Limits
Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Speaking of Ancients...
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: Mac OSX was re: Versions
Re: Battledress [lost]
Re: TML Archives - early bundles via ftp.
tech question
RE: and now to something completely different
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: Brown Dwarfs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 05:30:43 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

> I had imagined the Imperium having collapsed, seeing as Hard Times brought
> the safes down to 1-2 subsectors and many of the worlds between were
> ravaged. It's hard to imagine expansion any time soon. I pictured a similiar
> result to the end of the Rule of Man, another Long Night. (the 2nd Night) I
> gave it 3 centuries to recover in the corner of space I'm playing in.

Where abouts are you running your game in?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:26:28 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com writes:
>The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
>"Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
>they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
>X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".

I thought that X was 10 in Roman Numerals, as OSX is due out after OS9
ships (next year?).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:33:17 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Versions 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>>From what I hear, in M:0, the 3I is pretty much the best-armed bunch
>>around.
>Nobody else is even in their league hardly.  The only thing that slowed them
>down in their expansion was the fact that they had to take time out between
>campaigns of conquest to integrate the new territories into what they already
>had.  In TNE, humaniti had already created its successor species, Virus, and
>had to try and win space back from it.

Actually, in MO the 3I starts expanding after it has concluded its wars
with the Chanestin Kingdom (rimward), and the Interstellar Confederacy
(from the Dag top Spinward side of Core). The Chanestin lasted longer IIRC,
but the IC seriously threatened the nascent Imperium.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 05:49:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Versions 

> cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com writes:
> >The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
> >"Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
> >they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
> >X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".
> 
> I thought that X was 10 in Roman Numerals, as OSX is due out after OS9
> ships (next year?).

They're still making OS9 for the Macs?  *COOL*!!!  I used to use it on my CoCos way back when.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:45:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Brown Dwarfs

The latest issue of Astronomy has a decent article about brown dwafs.
Including a *nice* illo suitable for showing to players who want to
know what one looks like.

Apparently, according to current observations, there should be twice as
many brown dwarfs as all other types of stars put together. 

So if you want to add them to system generation, you could do it like
this: 

1-2	use standard star table
3-6	Brown Dwarf

Not only has "Type L" been suggested for brown dwarfs with surface
temps in the range 2000-1400 K, but there's even talk of a type T for
cooler ones (clear down to Jupiter/Saturn temps).

No idea what the relative frequency of the two types should be. 

One "good" thing if we include them in system generation. It'd get the
frequency of *other* stars back down to something reasonable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclabscn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 07:44:13 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

> First In has everything that B6 has plus pretty much everything that World
> Builders Handbook has, so from an economy standpoint, FI is _definitely_ the
> better deal. Plus, it's in print.

This is a major bonus. Still would like to expand my CT collection, but...
>
> It's also quite well done. IMHO.
>
> For variant drive technology, though, you'll have to find a copy of FFS or
> FFS2; that's where that stuff is explained. Gurps Space has that kind of
> stuff, too.

That's Fusion, Fire and Steel, right? Is that where "Stutterwarp" is
covered?
>
> You'll have to be careful though...Jump Drive is sort of like the internal
> combustion engine technology for cars...there's a reason everyone uses pretty
> much one kind of technology...you'll get occasional designs that are
> different, but they have to provide very significant advantages for them to be
> other than curiosities. And if they offer those kinds of advantages, they'll
> rapidly replace jump drives...
>
Actually I am thinking that the variants will be seriously less useful than
.Jump. Utilized by races the 3I considers "Minor", and in most cases
significantly slower. The other factor will be *where* I set the campaign. I
plan on locating the sector that will serve as a stage far from 3I space,
with campaign introduction being a misjump.

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:07:05 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

> However, the mass of main-sequence stars don't vary all that much (0.1 to
> 10 solar masses), and binaries tend to be quite close in mass to each
> other.  A third star would have to be far enough out to orbit the inner
> pair's center of mass.  If it's too close the arrangement would be
> unstable.  A 4-star system would be two binary pairs orbit a common center
> of mass.
>
Wow, a double binary. How common are these? I had a friend tell me binaries
were the most common, folowed by singular stars, then trinary. He didn't
know the percentages though, nor did he mention double binaries. Is this all
covered in First In?

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:10:02 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

I'm jumpin' on the 3D bandwagon! ;)

I did this stuff over the course of two weeks or so. I haven't had the time
to sit down and muck around with anything in the last couple of weeks
though.

Click here for the images:

http://www.pil.net/~semo/render

I'd love any and all feedback on the pieces, especially from those more
experienced in the art of rendering. I was pretty much just experimenting
with the unregistered version of Moray in conjunction with POVRay to see if
I liked doing 3D stuff.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:32:39 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Chris Seamans wrote:

> I'm jumpin' on the 3D bandwagon! ;)
>
> I did this stuff over the course of two weeks or so. I haven't had the time
> to sit down and muck around with anything in the last couple of weeks
> though.
>
> Click here for the images:
>
> http://www.pil.net/~semo/render
>
> I'd love any and all feedback on the pieces, especially from those more
> experienced in the art of rendering. I was pretty much just experimenting
> with the unregistered version of Moray in conjunction with POVRay to see if
> I liked doing 3D stuff.

 Cool, may have use them.

On of theese days I have to finish a project.

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:37:36 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

SD Mooney wrote:

>>> Bruce, or as so call him...Bloo types while ignoring the fnords
>>>  >So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
>>>  >near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
>>>  >Virus . . .
>>>
>>> received a FTL communication from a group of Aslan females wearing
>>> comfortable shoes...
>>
>>And said, "G'day, Sheilas," while he loaded his shoulder-fired
>>Penguin launcher.
>
>From the Feudal Technocracy were he was hiding out, having debated the
>effeciveness of fighter swarms against capital ships....

compared with detonation-laser, HE, and nuclear missiles.

>BTW - didn't the Russians have a Penguin Missile?

No, that was (is) Norway.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:22:01 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Infiltration Shuttle (GTL 10 & 12)

There is always a need to transport small teams of operatives covertly. All
agencies from the military, to corporate internal security, to the scouts have a
requirement for covert operations spacecraft, albeit for vastly different
purposes. 

To achieve this the infiltration shuttles are built as small as possible & have
maximum TL stealth capabilities - to minimise the possibility of detection.

They are often carried as "Lifeboats" on the starships that carry them. They can
be dropped off in space a long way from the target world and stealthily make
their way to that world. A standard size infiltration team have to hot-bunk, and
live in each others pockets, leading to crew friction. But for all those
missions where discretion is the better part of valour this is the only way to
travel.

GTL10 Infiltration Shuttle:

4DT SL Hull, DR 100, Radical Stealth, Radical EM cloaking, Cockpit bridge, 1
Manouver Drive,  Non-starship life-support - including 2 bunks, up to 8
passenger seats depending on mission - typically 4, 0.37 DT Cargo.

Emass 16.5, LMass 19.1, Cost MCr 4.506, HP 1500, Hull Size Modifier:+5
Accel 2.09 Gs (2.42 Gs empty), Jump 0, Air Speed 1732 MPH

GTL12 Infiltration Shuttle:

3DT SL Hull, DR 100, Radical Stealth, Radical EM cloaking, Cockpit bridge, 0.3
Manouver Drive, Non-starship life-support - including 2 bunks, up to 7 passenger
seats depending on mission - typically 4, 0.27 DT Cargo.

Emass 9.9, LMass 11.6, Cost MCr 3.866, HP 1200, Hull Size Modifier:+4
Accel 2.59 Gs (3.03 Gs empty), Jump 0, Air Speed 1677 MPH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:18:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
> 
> That's Fusion, Fire and Steel, right? Is that where "Stutterwarp" is
> covered?

Yes, it is. If you find any old 2300AD stuff, the ftl drives in there are
stutterwarp. too.

> Actually I am thinking that the variants will be seriously less useful than
> Jump. Utilized by races the 3I considers "Minor", and in most cases
> significantly slower. The other factor will be *where* I set the campaign. I
> plan on locating the sector that will serve as a stage far from 3I space,
> with campaign introduction being a misjump.

Ahhh, this will make the PC's ship  a _definite_ hot potato, particularly if
the misjump damages the jump drive in any way...he he he...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:27:43 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

>>>Kinetic Kill Missiles are often a one shot kill. Which is why PDF is so
>>>important.

>> What's Acrobat got to do with KKMs? <g,d,r>

>Hey, I posted the math on that _once_.  I'm not doing it again!

>(IIRC, I calculated that one CPU slot in a Traveller computer could
>simultaneously run 250 Acrobat windows, thus using PDF to destroy 250
>missiles per combat turn.)

That should be 2500 :-)

A standard GT PDF weapon can be used to destroy up to 10 missiles each per
combat turn (GT Page 169 - 600*ROF)...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:36:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TML Archives - found the lost bundles :P

That's odd! 

Jory Earl wrote:
> 
> BTW, I used that Stuffit from the Aladdin site and it won't decode those
> .z files from the Xboat directory either.
> 
> Here is a sample filename :
> 
> xboat-v1996-n000-n009_bun.z
> 
> After installing Alladin's "Stuffit Expander", these files are now
> labeled
> Alladin Stuffit Archives, but when I try to open one I ge this error :
> 
> "The data read from this archive or encoded file was not in the expected
> format"

Bad news...this sounds like you downloaded the files in ascii not binary
format. 

Try changing the .z to .Z (but that doesn't matter, I think, on Windows
systems) Expander may be thinking they're some variant of gzip files (.gz)
rather than compress files (.Z) (in unix, case matters)

If you still get the error message, then it might be the ascii not binary
thing. That might have been why Winzip choked on them in the first place, too.

If you're using a ftp utility, like WSFTP, to download them, make sure that
the 'binary' option is selected.

I know I've successfully expanded compress files with expander on my PC at work.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:45:30 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

Uh, Jess....when are you NOT having a beer?


BAH-DUM-BUMP!!  Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.

T

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:42:26 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients...

Just cut and paste a picture of a Vorlon ship from B5.

T

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:48:56 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

> Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
>> 
>> That's Fusion, Fire and Steel, right? Is that where "Stutterwarp" is
>> covered?
>
> Yes, it is. If you find any old 2300AD stuff, the ftl drives in there are
> stutterwarp. too.

Ahh, I see, how do they compare to Jump Drives?
>
>> Actually I am thinking that the variants will be seriously less useful than
>> Jump. Utilized by races the 3I considers "Minor",

Actually only if I *do* the Spinward Marches or other 3I zone. I only play
right now, and that mostly around the Sword Worlds. I have arbitrated other
Sci-Fi games, but not Traveller. Even before I was introduced to traveller,
my home rules usually shifted the games to a more Travelleresque feel. Or
Aliens, with a dash of Niven's Known Universe.

>> and in most cases significantly slower.

Well, come to think of it, perhaps I should say longer? Nothing travels
faster than light, we just figure out how to get there before it does! ;)

>>The other factor will be *where* I set the campaign. I
>> plan on locating the sector that will serve as a stage far from 3I space,
>> with campaign introduction being a misjump.
>
> Ahhh, this will make the PC's ship  a _definite_ hot potato, particularly if
> the misjump damages the jump drive in any way...he he he...
>
Oh, I wouldn't be *that* mean, I doubt it would be the drives themselves
that wound up dama.. I mean the Jump Drives are fine. ;)

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:57:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Mac OSX was re: Versions

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com writes:
> >The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
> >"Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
> >they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
> >X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".
> 
> I thought that X was 10 in Roman Numerals, as OSX is due out after OS9
> ships (next year?).

Actually it's Mac OS X (ten) because OS 9 has been around for years already.
It's a real-time operating system used in embedded systems, and IIRC, was last
used in consumer systems as the OS for TI and Tandy computers (wasn't the CoCo
an OS9 system?)

You can find the company that makes it on the web somewhere, there's a fair
following for it, and it's been ported to several different chip
architectures, IIRC.

Whats going to be interesting, from my point of view is if there's going to be
some way to hack OSX into allowing a regular X-Windows session, either as an
alternate full-screen, or even cooler, as a window, a la Virtual PC. 

The latter should be simple...there are a number of Mac X-Windows clients out
right now. That ought to make it work in the short term, until people have
wailed on the Mac GUI libs (the Carbon libraries) for a while to get an
'Xwindows' lib that has the Mac GUI.

_That_ is going to start eating Linuxes lunch in the consumer
market...allegedly, OSX will run on Imacs (Apple has stated that it is
targeted for 'modern' macs with G3 processors: Imacs and B&W G3's) Linux runs
quite happily on iMacs, so there's no major problem as far as processor power
or memory, etc.

gcc is already ported  so all the current library files for linux can, in
theory, be ported. (OSX server was widely proclaimed as not having a freely
available development system, when gcc was shipping all along. It was just on
the second CD which had Apache and suchlike. This means that the CD's that
come with OSX should provide some _interesting_ browsing ... don't just
install it and put 'em away!)

Linux will always be good for low cost solutions, but from a consumer
standpoint, a system that offers both all the usability advantages of the Mac
and all the stability advantages of Linux is going to rock, _particularly_
since the underpinning OS is still open source. If someone makes Back Orifrice
for Mac OSX, at least the lower level holes can be plugged relatively quickly.

Dragging it back to Traveller, this does represent a first step towards the
kind of computing model common im Traveller, that programs can run just about
anywhere on any system.

Bruce "Bruce" Johnson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:59:50 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [lost]

> 
> 
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
>> So far, it's been a few people *vehemently* opposed, a few people
>> extremely supportive, and the vast majority either lukewarm or silent on
>> the matter.
>
> How about hopelessly confused and out of their depth?
> Thats me.
>
Heh heh, how about in a twisted state of cross agreemnt/disagreement with
all sides of the debate? IMTU...
;)

> So, a pirate, wearing commando battledress stranded on a
> near-C rock, aimed at a deep meson submarine, infected with
> Virus . . .
>
Do those penguin chuckers come in Pelvic Mounts as well?

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:37:28 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archives - early bundles via ftp.

At 08:30 PM 7/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey there Paul, I'll take all your 1987 Archives..

Jory and any others interested - 

I've decided to make the old tml bundles available via ftp. The size of the
zip file is slightly over 3 megs, and contains the following bundles:
#1-32, 34-111, 124-183, 212-239, and 268-278. The ftp addy is: 


ftp.primenet.com/users/t/timmon/tmlbundle.zip

L8r,
Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:07:19 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: tech question

OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a large
space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:18:28 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: and now to something completely different

Tim and I are both rolling there Todd :)

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of
> Tascelt@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 9:46 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: and now to something completely different
> 
> 
> Uh, Jess....when are you NOT having a beer?
> 
> 
> BAH-DUM-BUMP!!  Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.
> 
> T
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:33:26 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Nice work.  PovRay, though it doesn't have the kind of texture control and
layering that you need (last I knew anyway) for the type of detailing that I
like to do, it is quite capable in it's own right.  It's great for swoopy
little things like your speeder :)  I do believe that the cutter module you
have there is the absolute best PovRay piece that I've ever seen.  Up until
this I'd never seen anything from PR that had any amount of texturing aside
from procedural stuff like fractal noise.  I'm impressed!!!

Best,
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Seamans
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 8:10 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
>
>
> I'm jumpin' on the 3D bandwagon! ;)
>
> I did this stuff over the course of two weeks or so. I haven't
> had the time
> to sit down and muck around with anything in the last couple of weeks
> though.
>
> Click here for the images:
>
> http://www.pil.net/~semo/render
>
> I'd love any and all feedback on the pieces, especially from those more
> experienced in the art of rendering. I was pretty much just experimenting
> with the unregistered version of Moray in conjunction with POVRay
> to see if
> I liked doing 3D stuff.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:20:35 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

In a message dated 7/11/99 6:06:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

> The latest issue of Astronomy has a decent article about brown dwafs.
>  Including a *nice* illo suitable for showing to players who want to
>  know what one looks like.

For what it's worth.. .I saw this article too, and it inspired me to do a 
little
more research on brown dwarfs.  When I'm done I'll release some optional
rules compatible with First In to take them into account.

The astute observer will notice that First In, as it stands, doesn't generate
gas giants much larger than Jupiter.  This is no worse than earlier system-
generation rule sets, but it isn't satisfactory because it doesn't allow for
super-Jupiters of the kind we *know* exist.  Hopefully when I'm done with
the current project we'll be able to deal with super-Jovians and brown
dwarfs in a reasonable manner.

>  Apparently, according to current observations, there should be twice as
>  many brown dwarfs as all other types of stars put together. 
>  
>  So if you want to add them to system generation, you could do it like
>  this: 
>  
>  1-2	use standard star table
>  3-6	Brown Dwarf

Hmmmm.  I'm a little leery of this.  One of the most common complaints
I've gotten about First In so far is that it's difficult to generate a system
containing an Earthlike world at random.  This is mostly because it's
almost impossible to generate an Earthlike world near a primary star
of class K5 or lower -- and that's the majority of all stars.  Making
two-thirds of all randomly-generated stars brown dwarfs might be more
realistic but it would be even less playable.

It might make sense to allow *companion* stars to be brown dwarfs,
of course. . .

Anyway, I'm open to suggestions as to how to set up these rules.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #848
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 849



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: Mac OSX was re: Versions
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: Brown Dwarfs
Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)
Re: Brown Dwarfs
Re: tech question
Re: Brown Dwarfs
RE: tech question
RE: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
RE: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: and now to something completely different
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:36:17 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
> 
> > Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
> >>
> >> That's Fusion, Fire and Steel, right? Is that where "Stutterwarp" is
> >> covered?
> >
> > Yes, it is. If you find any old 2300AD stuff, the ftl drives in there are
> > stutterwarp. too.
> 
> Ahh, I see, how do they compare to Jump Drives?

Stutterwarp drives work best in very low gravity gradients. In 2300 AD the
actual speed depends on the 'warp' rating of the drive, and is equal to 1
Lightyear/day /warp rating. The big thing with Stutterwarp drives is that they
build up a charge on drive components that needs to be discharged regularly,
in a gravity well, or the drive is damaged. This is nasty, as the drive puts
out a huge amount of radiation as it disintegrates.

The practical limit, at 2300AD levels is 7.7 light years. (approximately jump 2)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:38:31 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Chris,

Great stuff! I can see I'll have to start cranking to keep up! Next
thing you know we'll have a Trav 3d list and web-ring. (Jusk kidding...
I think...)

Mike

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> I'm jumpin' on the 3D bandwagon! ;)
> 
> I did this stuff over the course of two weeks or so. I haven't had the time
> to sit down and muck around with anything in the last couple of weeks
> though.
> 
> Click here for the images:
> 
> http://www.pil.net/~semo/render
> 
> I'd love any and all feedback on the pieces, especially from those more
> experienced in the art of rendering. I was pretty much just experimenting
> with the unregistered version of Moray in conjunction with POVRay to see if
> I liked doing 3D stuff.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:52:51 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Mac OSX was re: Versions

 
> Whats going to be interesting, from my point of view is if there's going to be
> some way to hack OSX into allowing a regular X-Windows session, either as an
> alternate full-screen, or even cooler, as a window, a la Virtual PC. 
 
It already exists for NeXTStep (aka Rhapsody). We had it on our NeXT
machines at home (with my old roomate).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:48:16 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

I like them.  I am going to use your Vacuum Bugs in my next 
session.  Thanks!


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:55:37 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

>>  So if you want to add them to system generation, you could do it like
>>  this:
>>
>>  1-2 use standard star table
>>  3-6 Brown Dwarf
>
> Hmmmm.  I'm a little leery of this.  One of the most common complaints
> I've gotten about First In so far is that it's difficult to generate a system
> containing an Earthlike world at random.  This is mostly because it's
> almost impossible to generate an Earthlike world near a primary star
> of class K5 or lower -- and that's the majority of all stars.  Making
> two-thirds of all randomly-generated stars brown dwarfs might be more
> realistic but it would be even less playable.

Well, there are a variety of solutions, my first thought is Ancients nudging
planets around. Another would be clerical error, or compromise in notation.
Perhaps if there is no other explanation it could be some as-yet-unrevealed
Primordial project.

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:54:30 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: First In? B6:Scouts? (Was:Why I don't play GT)

At 12:36 PM 7/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
>> 
>> > Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:
>> >>
>> >> That's Fusion, Fire and Steel, right? Is that where "Stutterwarp" is
>> >> covered?
>> >
>> > Yes, it is. If you find any old 2300AD stuff, the ftl drives in there are
>> > stutterwarp. too.
>> 
>> Ahh, I see, how do they compare to Jump Drives?
>
>Stutterwarp drives work best in very low gravity gradients. In 2300 AD the
>actual speed depends on the 'warp' rating of the drive, and is equal to 1
>Lightyear/day /warp rating. The big thing with Stutterwarp drives is that they
>build up a charge on drive components that needs to be discharged regularly,
>in a gravity well, or the drive is damaged. This is nasty, as the drive puts
>out a huge amount of radiation as it disintegrates.
>
>The practical limit, at 2300AD levels is 7.7 light years. (approximately 
>jump 2)

TNE really played fast and loose with this.  They changed the rating from
LY/day to Parsecs/day and made the charge limit optional.

At some of the higer tech levels, TL-17, I was able to design a 3000ton
Frigate with a rating of 19...She could cover two subsectors in a day...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:36:45 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

>> The latest issue of Astronomy has a decent article about brown dwafs.
>>  Including a *nice* illo suitable for showing to players who want to
>> know what one looks like.

>For what it's worth.. .I saw this article too, and it inspired me to do a
>little
>more research on brown dwarfs.  When I'm done I'll release some optional
>rules compatible with First In to take them into account.

>The astute observer will notice that First In, as it stands, doesn't generate
>gas giants much larger than Jupiter.  This is no worse than earlier system-
>generation rule sets, but it isn't satisfactory because it doesn't allow for
>super-Jupiters of the kind we *know* exist.  Hopefully when I'm done with
>the current project we'll be able to deal with super-Jovians and brown
>dwarfs in a reasonable manner.

A couple of notes:
- -the density of brown dwarfs is pretty poorly known, in spite of recent nice
work
by the 2MASS people; I wouldn't be sure as yet that they're "twice as common"
as normal stars - error bars are pretty big. If you do want them to be common,
a good Traveller approach would just be to assume that every empty hex has
a brown dwarf in it...

Brown dwarfs and super-jovian planets probably aren't the same thing; it's
reasonable to maintain a distinction between them, with brown dwarfs being
generated by the star/binary star generating process and jovians (up to maybe
5-10 jupiter masses) being generated by the planet-generating process (which
is pretty much what happens in real life.) Also, because of selection effects,
our
ideas about how common super-jovian planets are are very very very fuzzy.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:22:41 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <1141-504@onlinehome.de>
Subject: Re: tech question

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:07:19 -0700, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

>open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?

Grav Plates TL 10.

Jens

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:37:20 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

At 03:20 PM 11/07/1999 EDT, you wrote:
>It might make sense to allow *companion* stars to be brown dwarfs,
>of course. . .
>
>Anyway, I'm open to suggestions as to how to set up these rules.
>
        Hi, Jon....
        As a suggestion, simply increase the odds of a given hex containing
a star...  browns are almost as useless as empty space, the way I understand
it.    So, your stelar population increases, but the ratio of useful stars
doesn't degrade.  Purely off the cuff suggestion.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:56:55 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: tech question

But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jens Maskus
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 6:23 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: tech question
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:07:19 -0700, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
> >open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?
>
> Grav Plates TL 10.
>
> Jens
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:47:16 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: tech question

At 02:56 PM 11/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
>atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.
>
>Jesse
>
        While I have never thought about it, you could handwave a TL15
soap-bubble like membrane that allows the vessels to pass through at a
couple of m/sec velocity and contains the atmosphere.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:46:08 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a large
> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?

Well, looking through FF&S2, I can't find any screens that have such a
function.  I suppose that one could rig tractor/repulsor fields to allow
a bay to be open to space while retaining atmosphere.  The tricky part
would be to modulate the field so that a ship could exit the bay, while
the atmosphere remains in place.  Under FF&S2, this solution would
probably be TL-16 or higher, as repulsors don't appear in FF&S2 until
that TL.

Of course, black globe generators would be unsuitable, as the gas
molecules in the atmosphere would interact with the screen, thus
charging the screen to overload (see FF&S2, pg. 57, for a brief
discussion).

Naturally, grav plates would be able to provide gravity within the bay. 
I would suggest a gradient, with gravity increasing as the ship moves
away from the bay port.  That way, the ship's controls can compensate
gradually to the artificial gravity, and therefore won't slam into the
deck just inside the bay.
> 
> Best,
> Jesse


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:51:14 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

> But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
> atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.
>
> Jesse

No force fields, at least not at *3I* TL (CT). Just who the doodles were
those Primordials? ;)
>
BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:56:24 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

> At 02:56 PM 11/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
>>atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.
>>
>>Jesse
>>
>         While I have never thought about it, you could handwave a TL15
> soap-bubble like membrane that allows the vessels to pass through at a
> couple of m/sec velocity and contains the atmosphere.
>
>         --Michel

Now wait a centon, that sounds fairly concievable to me!  Held in place with
a static electric charge? ;)

>  -+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
>  Michel R. Vaillancourt misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
>     ICQ # 31172292
>  "Reality Error in Progress....
Typical....
>    ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin" 

But *mine* is all out of whack! ;)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:58:53 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

Black ICE wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Well, looking through FF&S2, I can't find any screens that have such a
> function.  I suppose that one could rig tractor/repulsor fields to allow
> a bay to be open to space while retaining atmosphere.  The tricky part
> would be to modulate the field so that a ship could exit the bay, while
> the atmosphere remains in place.  Under FF&S2, this solution would
> probably be TL-16 or higher, as repulsors don't appear in FF&S2 until
> that TL.

One thing I forgot to mention:  while FF&S lists repulsor technology as
TL-16, High Guard allows anti-missile repulsor bays at TL-10.  Perhaps
T4 assumes that useful repulsor technology requires a finer level of
control than can be achieved at TL-10.  If this is the case, one may be
able to extrapolate that a "simple" repulsor field (which repels gaseous
molecules, while allowing macroscopic artifacts ["ships"] to pass
freely) could be built at TL-14 or TL-15.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:01:13 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

Justice Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> > At 02:56 PM 11/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >>But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
> >>atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.
> >>
> >>Jesse
> >>
> >         While I have never thought about it, you could handwave a TL15
> > soap-bubble like membrane that allows the vessels to pass through at a
> > couple of m/sec velocity and contains the atmosphere.
> >
> >         --Michel
> 
> Now wait a centon, that sounds fairly concievable to me!  Held in place with
> a static electric charge? ;)

I wouldn't want to use an electromagnetic field for this; IMHO, there
would be too much chance of zapping the ship as it passes through.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:18:13 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: tech question

At 04:58 PM 11/07/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>
>One thing I forgot to mention:  while FF&S lists repulsor technology as
>TL-16, High Guard allows anti-missile repulsor bays at TL-10.  Perhaps
>T4 assumes that useful repulsor technology requires a finer level of
>control than can be achieved at TL-10.  If this is the case, one may be
>able to extrapolate that a "simple" repulsor field (which repels gaseous
>molecules, while allowing macroscopic artifacts ["ships"] to pass
>freely) could be built at TL-14 or TL-15.
>
><<snip>>
>
        Repulsors are focussed anti-grav projectors...  the litterally push
the missle away from the ship.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:19:23 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: tech question

>> >         While I have never thought about it, you could handwave a TL15
>> > soap-bubble like membrane that allows the vessels to pass through at a
>> > couple of m/sec velocity and contains the atmosphere.
>> >
>> >         --Michel
>> 
>> Now wait a centon, that sounds fairly concievable to me!  Held in place with
>> a static electric charge? ;)
>
>I wouldn't want to use an electromagnetic field for this; IMHO, there
>would be too much chance of zapping the ship as it passes through.
>
        At what voltage?  What amps?  Is it close to a PAWs?
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:31:46 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         Repulsors are focussed anti-grav projectors...  the litterally push
> the missle away from the ship.
> 

No they aren't!!  They are those lesbian female aslan pirates wearing
grav-harnesses and swinging from the top of the bay.

<ducking the thrown objects>
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:45:05 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

At 04:58 PM 7/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Black ICE wrote:
>> 
><<snip>>
>> 
>> Well, looking through FF&S2, I can't find any screens that have such a
>> function.  I suppose that one could rig tractor/repulsor fields to allow
>> a bay to be open to space while retaining atmosphere.  The tricky part
>> would be to modulate the field so that a ship could exit the bay, while
>> the atmosphere remains in place.  Under FF&S2, this solution would
>> probably be TL-16 or higher, as repulsors don't appear in FF&S2 until
>> that TL.
>
>One thing I forgot to mention:  while FF&S lists repulsor technology as
>TL-16, High Guard allows anti-missile repulsor bays at TL-10.  Perhaps
>T4 assumes that useful repulsor technology requires a finer level of
>control than can be achieved at TL-10.  If this is the case, one may be
>able to extrapolate that a "simple" repulsor field (which repels gaseous
>molecules, while allowing macroscopic artifacts ["ships"] to pass
>freely) could be built at TL-14 or TL-15.

But when the ship leaves, would the internal atmosphere of the ship be
effected?

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:13:09 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: tech question

The Primordials were precursors of the Ancients.  The Ancients appear to
have been studying them the way we study the Ancients :)

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'
> ZeAbe' Akella
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 2:51 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: tech question
>
>
> > But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
> > atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.
> >
> > Jesse
>
> No force fields, at least not at *3I* TL (CT). Just who the doodles were
> those Primordials? ;)
> >
> BZA
>
> ////////////////////////////////////////
> Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
> IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:51:41 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

Jesse,

I had this thought a while ago concerning a cruise ship design I was
toying with. I had thought about a feild covered promanade. However, I
eventually dropped the idea. Here's my logic, may be warped but here
goes.

Canon has various references to "domed cities" on vacc or hostile
environment worlds. Yet nowhere in Canon (that I could find!) is a
refernce to a feild covered city. Therefore there is no such feild in
the OTU. Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a
rigid dome, if it was available it would have been mentioned at lest
once.

I know, I know, it's not a "real" answer, and doesn't really "prove" it
one way or the other, but it worked for me.


- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:23:00 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tascelt@aol.com <Tascelt@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: and now to something completely different


>Uh, Jess....when are you NOT having a beer?
>
>
>BAH-DUM-BUMP!!  Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.


I just jumped in from Efate and boy are my legs tired!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:30:00 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

MTU is still in development. I'm thinking of being a bit ambiguos as to the
exact location in the Old Impirium these worlds are located. I'm thinking
somewhere between Dark Nebula and Ilelish. The worlds and locations are
completely made up, so they wouldn't actually fit any canon sources. I
haven't seen any star charts for Reaver's Deep or Daibei sectors anyways. I
wanted to have a clan of Aslan in the local region and thought this would be
the best area for it. The Aslan could easily penetrate deeper into Imperial
Territory after HT. Zarushagar is probably too ravaged for what I want to
portray, but it is a good border for lack of contact and future exploration.
Undercover SolSec agents might be intersting... maybe Solomani scouts
exploring the Old Imperium come across these worlds and send agents in to
learn more... I'm basically just using the "galaxy" maps found in the MT/HT
books as a basis for where everything is/was. Actual world names and
locations don't really matter to me. I'd much rather make them up as to how
I want/need them rather than being confined.  I never was much of a fan for
Vilani names anyways... I like words I can pronounce. ;)

I'll make star charts and library data and post it on the web as it becomes
available.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c(+) jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

> > I had imagined the Imperium having collapsed, seeing as Hard Times
> >brought the safes down to 1-2 subsectors and many of the worlds
> >between were ravaged. It's hard to imagine expansion any time soon.
> >I pictured a similiar result to the end of the Rule of Man, another Long
Night. (the 2nd
> >Night) I gave it 3 centuries to recover in the corner of space I'm
playing in.
>
> Where abouts are you running your game in?
>
> Keven

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #849
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 12 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 850



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: and now to something completely different
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )
.tar.z and *.z
[ot] MacOS
Re: tech question
RE: tech question
Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Mystery Ship
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
What's new
Re: tech question
Re: tech question 
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: Games in 3I
Re: Brown Dwarfs
Re: Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: tech question
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:58:57 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: and now to something completely different

Oh brother....Someone else jumping on the bandwagon :)

Jesse


<<snip Todd>> 
> >Uh, Jess....when are you NOT having a beer?
> >
> >
> >BAH-DUM-BUMP!!  Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.
> 
<<snip Chris>>
> I just jumped in from Efate and boy are my legs tired!
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:53:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions )

IMTU, The rebellion prettymuch goes as written until 1125 or so, when a
couple of bored lunatics (one a Cout-Duke, IE, an non-landed hereditary
noble title with service obligations; the other a scout with a history of
drug dealing, partying, and an entire career in the X-Boat service, the
infamous Xen Xanfried) got a hold on an Edict 97 and Edict 101 (Imp Warrant
and and Immunity to local jurisdictions for the good of the imperium, used
to protect investigators), and went to capital, and assassinated Lucan,
then proceeded to get dulinor on the throne by 1128...


By 1135, the 3rd Imp is reestablished, sans the old solomani sphere, and
the (Restored) Ziru Sirkaa. Brzrk is being negotiated with, and is
"nominally" reunited... as an autonomous zone. The Vegans have been
"liberated" from the solomani. Xen quietly sabotaged Margaret's yacht, and
Strephon, while real, hides out, to make his return... and reclaim a nearly
reunited 3I. Numerous pockets of resisatnace and pocket empires exist, and
"Imperial Rule" means little outside the safes.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: .tar.z and *.z

>
>BTW, I used that Stuffit from the Aladdin site and it won't decode those
>.z files from the Xboat directory either.
>
>Here is a sample filename :
>
>xboat-v1996-n000-n009_bun.z
>
>After installing Alladin's "Stuffit Expander", these files are now
>labeled
>Alladin Stuffit Archives, but when I try to open one I ge this error :
>
>"The data read from this archive or encoded file was not in the expected
>format"

you need GNUzip, not PKzip; stuffit doesn't do tar or gzip.

How you know what you need to unzip  the most coomon unix archive files:
.z	GNU Zip
.gz	GNU zip
.tar	Untar (*n*x Tape ARchive)
.tar.z	GNUzip and untar
.tgz	GNUzip and untar
.tar.gz	GNUzip and untar

those last three endings are often refferred to as "tarballs".

had to learn all this when tring to get MacBSD68K running... never got it
running (all my macs were too new). There are decoders for tar and gz for
almost all platforms.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:54:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [ot] MacOS

>cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com writes:
>>The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
>>"Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
>>they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
>>X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".
>
>I thought that X was 10 in Roman Numerals, as OSX is due out after OS9
>ships (next year?).
>
>Dom
it is, but there isn't supposed to be a MacOS 9. As for the nature of MacOS
X, it is based off of a cross between Next and MacOS and A/UX, using bits
and pieces, from what I've read.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:15:27 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: tech question

What you're describing/asking for is a "magcon" (magnetic containment)
field, right out of Star Wars.  Unfortunately, this is a bit of Star Wars
tech that doesn't seem to exist in the Official TU (except at Ancient TLs).
 Traveller ships use hangar doors and decompressed landing bays.

Sorry.  Have you considered playing Star Wars instead?  The physics aren't
nearly as demanding.  ;)


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:20:09 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: tech question

I'd been hoping there was some reference I missed.  Oh well.

"Play Star Wars instead?!?!?!?!?!"  BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!  MAY THE FLEAS FROM A
THOUSAND CAMELS INFEST YOUR ARMPITS!!!

:)~

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kelly
> St.Clair
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 5:15 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: tech question
>
>
> What you're describing/asking for is a "magcon" (magnetic containment)
> field, right out of Star Wars.  Unfortunately, this is a bit of Star Wars
> tech that doesn't seem to exist in the Official TU (except at
> Ancient TLs).
>  Traveller ships use hangar doors and decompressed landing bays.
>
> Sorry.  Have you considered playing Star Wars instead?  The physics aren't
> nearly as demanding.  ;)
>
>
> --------------
> Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.
>  At last we
> kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:23:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted


>Nice work.

Thank you very much.

>PovRay, though it doesn't have the kind of texture control and
>layering that you need (last I knew anyway) for the type of detailing that
I
>like to do, it is quite capable in it's own right.  It's great for swoopy
>little things like your speeder :)

The individual texture elements can be combined in some pretty interesting
ways, but they seem to work best on organic surfaces. Of course, the big
advantage of POV-Ray is that it's free ;)

It really helps when you're an impoverished student!

>I do believe that the cutter module you
>have there is the absolute best PovRay piece that I've ever seen.  Up until
>this I'd never seen anything from PR that had any amount of texturing aside
>from procedural stuff like fractal noise.  I'm impressed!!!


Thanks. Although I'm not sure it shows, I was very heavily influenced by the
evolution of the Donosev on your site.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:07:01 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Mystery Ship

The ship depicted on Page 3 of the basic GURPS:Traveller book has no canon 
references. It first appeared associated with an article on StarMercs in, 
IIRC, Traveller's Digest. A prompt from a couple of HIWGers and a bit of 
graphpaper drafting later, I had a serviceable 600ton hullform. I never got 
around to filling it completely, though, since trying to juggle large 
irregular spaces filled with staterooms is less fun on paper than it is on a 
computer screen.
  I'll need to dig for it, since it resides among my old paper plans (I 
hope). I had statted it as a form of Starmerc ship, but it may have better 
uses...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:52:21 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

<<snip Chris>>>
> Thanks. Although I'm not sure it shows, I was very heavily 
> influenced by the
> evolution of the Donosev on your site.
> 
> 


Glad to help in any way that I can :)

Welcome to the TML 3D Club!!!

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:39:51 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: What's new

	I've been off the list for a few weeks, while I've been moving, and 
wondered if there was any big news I've missed,  for instance:

	1) any developments with T5?   Publishers arranged etc.?

	2) Have the BITS guys issued ACQ or 101st Spaceborne yet?


			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:43:51 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> I'd been hoping there was some reference I missed.  Oh well.

I would think that my references (from FF&S2 and High Guard) would give
you the leeway you need.  If you don't want to violate T4 tech canon
(that repulsors are TL-16), you can always point out that:

1.  The 3I has been at TL-15 for quite some time (a century or so), and
therefore certain TL-16 developments can appear at any time; and

2.  The Darrian Confederation is _already_ at TL-16, and a space station
of the type you describe could easily employ licensed Darrian tech.

> 
> "Play Star Wars instead?!?!?!?!?!"  BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!  MAY THE FLEAS FROM A
> THOUSAND CAMELS INFEST YOUR ARMPITS!!!

I believe you are being a bit harsh.  Every once in a while, a cinematic
space opera can be entertaining.  OTOH, a steady diet of cinematic space
opera would grow tiresome, just as a steady diet of [insert your
favorite junk food here] would eventually dull your palate.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:29:39 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: tech question 

> I had this thought a while ago concerning a cruise ship design I was
> toying with. I had thought about a feild covered promanade. However, I
> eventually dropped the idea. Here's my logic, may be warped but here
> goes.
> 
> Canon has various references to "domed cities" on vacc or hostile
> environment worlds. Yet nowhere in Canon (that I could find!) is a
> refernce to a feild covered city. Therefore there is no such feild in
> the OTU. Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a
> rigid dome, if it was available it would have been mentioned at lest
> once.
> 
> I know, I know, it's not a "real" answer, and doesn't really "prove" it
> one way or the other, but it worked for me.

Well, IIRC, the only 'fields' in canon are black & white globes, which aren't air tight.  Not saying something like a field that holds air in isn't capable at highr techs, but just hasn't been developed yet at lower techs.  Or, just handwave it and say the field generating equipment is so large, expensive, and tricky to operate safely that most people *prefer* solid matter between them and the elements than a cancankerous field generator.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:31:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

> MTU is still in development. I'm thinking of being a bit ambiguos as to the
> exact location in the Old Impirium these worlds are located. I'm thinking
> somewhere between Dark Nebula and Ilelish. The worlds and locations are
> completely made up, so they wouldn't actually fit any canon sources. I
> haven't seen any star charts for Reaver's Deep or Daibei sectors anyways. I
> wanted to have a clan of Aslan in the local region and thought this would be
> the best area for it. The Aslan could easily penetrate deeper into Imperial
> Territory after HT. Zarushagar is probably too ravaged for what I want to
> portray, but it is a good border for lack of contact and future exploration.
> Undercover SolSec agents might be intersting... maybe Solomani scouts
> exploring the Old Imperium come across these worlds and send agents in to
> learn more... I'm basically just using the "galaxy" maps found in the MT/HT
> books as a basis for where everything is/was. Actual world names and
> locations don't really matter to me. I'd much rather make them up as to how
> I want/need them rather than being confined.  I never was much of a fan for
> Vilani names anyways... I like words I can pronounce. ;)
> 
> I'll make star charts and library data and post it on the web as it becomes
> available.

Sounds like it'd take place right smack dab in the middle of Reavers' Deep.  
Check my site, I've got maps & library data & all kindsa stuff on RD.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller

You might find some stuff there you can use.

Keven 

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:11:31 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming recreation
be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?

I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes and
control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium well
expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'. 

On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have their
own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I think
that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your fingers in
sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass time,
probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to the
med bay.

PS Sorry if this went twice, I think I emailed it stoopid the first time

- - Michael 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:10:48 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming recreation
be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?

I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes and
control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium well
expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'. 

On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have their
own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I think
that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your fingers in
sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass time,
probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to the
med bay.

- - Michael 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:52:57 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

> 
> 
> What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
> still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
> I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
> gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming recreation
> be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?

Well, in the RW, even though we have cool "advanced" games like Myst,
Unreal, Sim-City/Earth/Ant, etc., we stil have cribbage, chess, checkers,
poker, and so on. We even port them and variations of them into our
computers.
>
> I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes and
> control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium well
> expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'.

These sound great! They might even sell in the RW!
>
> On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have their
> own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I think
> that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your fingers in
> sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass time,
> probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to the
> med bay.

I would also imagine military types would play some form of craps, perhaps
with non-cubicle dice, due to the small size of the pieces making them easy
to carry. Card games would seem universally appealing, and easy to carry as
well.

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:59:58 -0500
From: "Clint Williams" <aremis@amaonline.com>
Subject: Re: Games in 3I

I think the games you mention would exist in some form for the interstellar
culture.  OTOH individual worlds likely have wildly differing distractions.
For example, on Aramanx wargames might be popular whhile folks on Psysadi
might prefer more physical pursuits (though w/ a tainted atmosphere such
activities might not be recommended).

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 11:21 PM
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I


>
>
>What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
>still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
>I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
>gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming
recreation
>be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?
>
>I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes and
>control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium well
>expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'.
>
>On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have their
>own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I think
>that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your fingers in
>sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass time,
>probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to the
>med bay.
>
>PS Sorry if this went twice, I think I emailed it stoopid the first time
>
>- Michael

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 01:31:27 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Apparently, according to current observations, there should be twice as
>many brown dwarfs as all other types of stars put together. 
>
>So if you want to add them to system generation, you could do it like
>this: 
>
>1-2	use standard star table
>3-6	Brown Dwarf

   Gack!  Too many for game purposes.  Most would likely be in deep space
or would be companions to main sequence stars.

>Not only has "Type L" been suggested for brown dwarfs with surface
>temps in the range 2000-1400 K, but there's even talk of a type T for
>cooler ones (clear down to Jupiter/Saturn temps).
>
>No idea what the relative frequency of the two types should be. 

   No prob--neither do most astronomers...

>One "good" thing if we include them in system generation. It'd get the
>frequency of *other* stars back down to something reasonable.

   As an alternative to a star on the companion table or perhaps as an
alternative to a Jovian planet, yes.

   FYI, small brown dwarfs (around 5 Jupiter masses) have diameters that
aren't all that much bigger than Jupiter--in fact as the mass of a brown
dwarf goes up, the diameter the diameter actually becomes *smaller* than
Jupiter.  This is because of gravitation effects that are not counteracted
by fusion as in stars.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:40:18 -0800
From: Joe Webb <jwwebb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

>Yes, we know this, but when do these facts become known in the
>Imperium?  I'm not at all clear on some of this myself.
>
>- --Glenn
>
>Paranoid thought for the day:  The Hivers are actually a Droyne
>manipulation!


Interest in the droyne in general could have started anytime after 0.  The
fact that they were widespread, and not just seperate races that happened
to look a lot alike probably did not occure until after the Pacifications.
Probably only when the relatively close droyne worlds in the Marches made
this apparent.  This could have happend in the late 300s, after several
major worlds in the Marches joined the Imperium .

The site at Antiquity was discovered in 385, full of droyne coyns.  It
probably wasn't common knowledge what coynes were at that time, however.
Antiquity was opened to the public around 800.  So the association between
the droyne and Ancients probably became known to the general public around
that time, just after they were given Majore Race status.  This doesn't
necessarily mean that everyone knew the Ancients were droyne, only that the
droyne were there, like humans (which essentially they were).

 Lots of publicity at this time.  Lots of investigation into what they do,
bringing out psionic use evidence.  Psionic use was recognized in the
casting ceremonies, so whenever these ceremonies were studied would reveal
psionic use among the general Droyne population, and not just random
individuals.  This happened prior to the Suppressions in the late 800's,
and probably after the Major Race designation.  Not much time to confirm
theories...

By the 900's investigation into the droyne had stopped cold, so any
possible Ancient sites on droyne worlds would not be known (if they hadn't
already been discovered).  Things that had been discovered about the droyne
were suppressed, and forgoten by the general public.

By the 1100s the Ancient/Droyne connection is known only to highly
specialized researchers with access to Ancients sites.  The continuing
threat of the Zhodani means that none of these researchers would be in the
Marches, where they could be corrupted by the zhos or the droyne telepaths.

The average public knowledge of Ancients is that they were likely humans
(especially if you are Solomani or Geonee) and that they kept other races
as servants, such as droyne and vargr.  Maybe some laymen who have done
lots of reading on the subject might know of theory that the droyne are the
Ancients.
After Twilights Peak there is no evidence, so the theory that the Droyne
are the Ancients is still just a theory.

These are just random thoughts based on canon events.  To my knowledge
nothing much is said exactly about who knows what.

Joe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a large
> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?

No.

For ships of the escort/destroyer size range you're talking about, it is
impractical to put them in a pressurized bay--it's much simpler to leave
the bay open and use umbilical access tubes to connect to the ship (for
loading and departure) and service the exterior via vacc suits, remote
robots or waldo-equipped service vehicles.

Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
station.

Clear bay 327. We are opening the magnetic field.

Nope, nothing like that in Traveller. No "force fields" as such...

The 1000-ton Scout tender has an openable bay, which completely contains
smaller ships, but that's only intended to hold a couple 100-ton
scout/courier or xboat class ships. I'm not sure if the bay can be
pressurized at all--again, what purpose would pressure and gravity in the
bay serve that would justify the expense of an enclosed bay, an airtight
door, and the volume of oxygen/life support/artificial gravity such a bay
would require?

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:11:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Hughes, Michael wrote:

> 
> 
> What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
> still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
> I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
> gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming recreation
> be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?
> 
Well, considering that the game of chess has survived for centuries, a
mutated form thereof might still exist. An adventure from an old issue of
JTAS, "Aces & Eights" (I think it was a John M. Ford adventure, actually)
included specific references to playing cards with the same suits we use
now, though as I recall specific card games weren't mentioned.

There is plenty of room for creation of Traveller games, many based on the
same sort of concepts as ancient or contemporary games: most TTL 5-7
worlds would have tabletop games based on pasteboard maps with wooden or
plastic or metal gamepieces like many of us are old enough to have grown
up with... 
	More advanced computer-based games are probably quite common in
the Traveller universe, especially on shipboard computers: given a week in
jumpspace with little to do, a passenger (or lazy crew member) has a lot
of time on their hands, and most free traders have fairly limited choices
of scenery. Of course, our characters always spend that week brushing up
on new skills, fixing their gear and doing maintenance on interior parts
of the ship (and occasionally doing things like foiling hijack attempts,
solving murder mysteries, and plotting interstellar intrigue with the
passengers of an interstellar luxury liner, etcetera...)

> I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes and
> control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium well
> expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'. 

Perhaps they play "Papers and Paychecks," a historical roleplaying game
set in an ancient Solomani culture where the characters play students and
workers in a primitive TL 7/8 setting... 

Okay, it's an old joke. So sue me.

> On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have their
> own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I think
> that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your fingers in
> sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass time,
> probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to the
> med bay.

One shudders to think what kind of games Vargr corsairs play while whiling
away the hours between pirate raids. I imagine "Toss The Pinkie Prisoner
Out The Airlock" is high on their list of preferred entertainments, not to
mention the ever-popular "Beat Up The Littlest Vargr On The Ship."

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #850
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 12 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 851



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 
Re: tech question
re: What's new
Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress [long]...
Re: tech question
Dark Nebula Data?
Re: Battledress [long]...
Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:44:49 PDT
Re: .tar.z and *.z
Drianjdaqr-class Destroyer (GTL11)
Joqlsha'-class Fighter (GTL11)
Shtiabr-class Intelligence Frigate (GTL11)
Shebzhinj-class Launch (GTL11)
Re: .tar.z and *.z
Re: character generators
Re: Tech question
RE: Battledress...
RE: Sectors
RE: Tech question
Re: character generators
Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: Versions
Re: Droyne & The Ancients

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:16:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

 "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> writes:
> I
>haven't seen any star charts for Reaver's Deep or Daibei sectors anyways.

Keven's site has starmaps, UPP data and more for Reaver's Deep. It's a
great resource.

Not sure of the URL though - it's bookmarked somewhere...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:09:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> writes:

>What you're describing/asking for is a "magcon" (magnetic containment)
>field, right out of Star Wars.  Unfortunately, this is a bit of Star Wars
>tech that doesn't seem to exist in the Official TU (except at Ancient TLs).

That's a Mag(ic)Con in Traveller. And nothing to do with the CCG....

> Traveller ships use hangar doors and decompressed landing bays.
>
>Sorry.  Have you considered playing Star Wars instead?  The physics aren't
>nearly as demanding.  ;)

If you plat ST:TNE RPG you can also invent a new particle that does this
for you ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:14:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: What's new

AveNelso@aol.com writes:

>	1) any developments with T5?   Publishers arranged etc.?

We've seen nothing....

>	2) Have the BITS guys issued ACQ or 101st Spaceborne yet?

Nope - expect a lot of material from BITS end August/start September to
coincide with GenCon UK. I know ACQ and 1 other are in final stages, and
another 2 or 3 arein development. More on this as it firms up. 101st
Spaceborne is presently on the backburner as real life commitments have
resulted in some of the team dropping out - we need to rebuild the group
and to be honest, so of the other 101s are higher priority at the moment.

Dom (BITS Webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:28:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Rebellion and the Big Breakup (was Re: Versions ) 

>  "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net> writes:
> > I
> >haven't seen any star charts for Reaver's Deep or Daibei sectors anyways.
> 
> Keven's site has starmaps, UPP data and more for Reaver's Deep. It's a
> great resource.

Thanxx.  <grin>

> Not sure of the URL though - it's bookmarked somewhere...

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller

Derek Stanley has some good stuff on Daibei, which is right next door to
Reavers' Deep.  No clue who's doing Ileish, though.  Derek's stuff is at:

http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:38:37 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress...



> >Otherwise, what my real-life experiences and your fantasy (BD in a
perfect
> >universe) ones have to do with it, I am not sure?
>
> This sentence makes no sense.
>

You asked if I had been fired upon?  What that has to do with a fantasy
(sorry, sci-fi) game I don't know, I'm not sure.  Please explain what my
being fired upon in r/l has to do with your fantasy of GT BD?

The other way of taking it (but I really didn't want to go there) was , that
it sounded in your question like (in relation to BD), "Have you ever been
shot at?  Well I have and I'm glad I had 90% protection from it!" which I
can only assume to be a fantasy thing anyway, as I don't know of any 90%
protective body armour.  So what does it have to do with it again?

> >However, unless someone has posted in total agreeance with you, you have
> >simply repeated your statement that "No, this is as *I* want it" (not
those
> >same words, I am paraphrasing), so why ask?
>
> If I post two messages, with headers, where I agree with other's ideas,
> will you agree to pay me $50,000?
>

You value yourself high, and yes, you have agreed with several (and I'm sure
you would for payment), but only when they have agreed with you anyway (I am
yet to see you post about downgrading BD and not fielding IM's in combat
situations without BD).  Do you do "anything" for money?

> >> You say that GT Battledress is too tough, I ask (over and over again)
if
> >> you'd trust a bullet proof vest that fails one time in ten.  Well?
>
> >Well, getting away from your Anime/comic concept, back to real life, I
would
> >have no other choice as there is no such thing to my knowledge, that will
> >give me, as an infantry/assault trooper, 90% protection from enemy
infantry
> >when I am on the ground in that capacity.
>
> I hate anime, and don't read comics.  In the "real World", there is no FTL
> drive, aliens descended from wolves, or star-spanning empires.  Perhaps
you
> should remember that this is a science-fiction RPG, not a modern day RPG.
>

Perhaps you should... your stuff is quite acceptable to that media I
believe.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:17:13 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]...



>
> What started this was my description of the modified disad Combat
Paralysis
> for troops used to fighting in battledress.
>

Yes, because IM's are not multi-task units and don't fight outside of BD
under any circumstances, hence the disad option.  Semantics, I apologise for
my generalisation.

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:16:26 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: tech question

>Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a rigid dome

Perhaps relying on a field generator isn't good for real estate prices? <g>

I know I'd be unhappy about the concept of relying wholly on an electrically
generated field for life - drop it for seconds and it'd be all over!  Even
in a cruiser in a vacuum you wouldn't die (except in extreme circumstances)
from short term power outages.

Definately TL*lots* though, imho.

Mike.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: tech question


>
>
> Jesse,
>
> I had this thought a while ago concerning a cruise ship design I was
> toying with. I had thought about a feild covered promanade. However, I
> eventually dropped the idea. Here's my logic, may be warped but here
> goes.
>
> Canon has various references to "domed cities" on vacc or hostile
> environment worlds. Yet nowhere in Canon (that I could find!) is a
> refernce to a feild covered city. Therefore there is no such feild in
> the OTU. Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a
> rigid dome, if it was available it would have been mentioned at lest
> once.
>
> I know, I know, it's not a "real" answer, and doesn't really "prove" it
> one way or the other, but it worked for me.
>
>
> --
> Mike Peters
> travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 05:53:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Dark Nebula Data?

Anybody got the Dark Nebula data in TravTools format by any chance?  I can't 
figure out where the bases are with the GEnie format files on the CORE site.

Thanxx in advance...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:24:39 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]...

At 08:54 09/07/1999, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>At 02:31 PM 7/9/99 +1000, you wrote:

>>> One more time, if you don't like the way Battledress is presented in
>>>GURPS, you are under no obligation to use it in any way, shape or form.  
>>>You could easily run a M*A*S*H game where there was very little gunfire at 
>>>all.
>
>>Right-oh, so now it's little gunfire or you must have BD?  Do IM's have
>>M*A*S*H Units, or is the IN still carrying that tradition for them, meaning
>>that players who don't want BD can't play IM's?

<snip>

>What I said was that I was going to spend some space on non-traditional
>military campaigns.  I did not say that I wouldn't spend any space on IA
>combat units that would be armed with gauss rifles and wearing CES.

So now you're going against that bit in LBB#4 that clearly states that
all TL14/15 battlefields are battledress and fusion guns.

Surely the Imperial Army is a TL14/15 mob, only the planetary defense
forces are "gauss rifles and wearing CES", or worse (based on the FFW
counters).

Next you'll be giving in to arguments in favour of some of the Imperial
Army units having "Brown Bess and redcoats" just because there are low
tech planets in the Imperium.

Sorry, but IMO, if the IA doesn't have decent weapons, they aren't worth
the cargo space they consume.

In M0 you have different capabilities but GURPS doesn't cover that period.

<snip>

Hopefully Doug^h^h^h^hBruce will feel better if criticised from all sides.

;-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:09:25 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <1141-504@onlinehome.de>
Subject: Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:28:05 +1100, Ian or Katts wrote:

>*The problem is that the Combat rules are still in beta. Unfortunatly my
>copy got lost when my old hard drive died. At ranges less than a light
>second, the answer is probably 'yes'. Outside that, it's an interaction
>between the size of the target, it's acceleration, the distance and the
>gunners skill*

I always thought that at light second ranges or more the acceleration or "normal velocity" doesn't matter because the 
direction of a target is predictable.

My approche was to convert old MT Fire Control / TL Difficulties to an logarithmic scale like DSR rules. And the result 
seems to me very good. 

I thought that a human size target was Target Size 0. (Signatue = log10(Volume[m3]+1)/2)

The quality FC TL 5 is 6.5 this is the minimum number to get an impossible difficulty for a human sized target an 
maximum FC range. The quality is increasing every TL by 0.3 . Example TL 10 is sensitivty 8.0 .

Range is just like DSR.

Difficulty = FC Quality + Target Size - Range

Modifiers for lasers and meson weapons at far range -0.5 and possible some others for different environments and 
weapon types.

What Do you think?

Jens

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:44:49 PDT
From: "Freelance Traveller" <freetrav@hotmail.com>
Subject: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 04:44:49 PDT

I took a quick look at the SearchSpot translation util; it uses Translation 
Experts' _InterTran_ translator, which I have bookmarked separately at 
http://www.translation-experts.com/intert.htm. The major problem with this 
translator is that the vocabulary is fairly limited in some languages, and 
the grammar quite frankly stinks in some. I was going to put links on 
Freelance Traveller to use this service for translation, but I'm less than 
certain that it's a good idea at this point.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freetrav@hotmail.com


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:46:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: .tar.z and *.z

Howdy!

William Hostman wrote in response to someone:
> >
> >BTW, I used that Stuffit from the Aladdin site and it won't decode those
> >.z files from the Xboat directory either.
> >
> >Here is a sample filename :
> >
> >xboat-v1996-n000-n009_bun.z
> >
> >After installing Alladin's "Stuffit Expander", these files are now
> >labeled
> >Alladin Stuffit Archives, but when I try to open one I ge this error :
> >
> >"The data read from this archive or encoded file was not in the expected
> >format"
> 
> you need GNUzip, not PKzip; stuffit doesn't do tar or gzip.
> 
The Expander Enhancer adds the ability to unstuff tar and gzip. At least my copy
does...

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:45:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Drianjdaqr-class Destroyer (GTL11)

Drianjdaqr-class Destroyer (GTL11)

The Zhodani Consulate maintains its most advanced ships as a reserve, ready
to respond to any aggression. Drianjdaqr destroyers form part of that
reserve. Fast, agile, and hard-hitting, they provide both a screen for
larger vessels, and the core of independent task forces for special
operations.

Crew: 4 bridge crew, 20 engineers, 18 gunners, 2 medics, 40 auxiliary crew

5000-ton USL Hull, DR 2500, PD 4, Heavy compartmentalization, 10 Turrets
with 3 lasers each, 4 Particle Beam Bays, Basic stealth, Basic emission
cloaking, Hardened Command Bridge, Psionic Switches, Engineering, 1800
Maneuver, 250 Jump, 2000 Fuel, 10 Fuel Processors (25.0 hours), 42
Staterooms, 10 Utility, 20 Vehicle Bays (20 Joqlsha' Fighters), Sickbay,
125 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 390-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng
112000 km, FP 5
4 Particle Beam Bays: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 6dx1500, Rng 23400 km, MxRng 70220
km, FP 63
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 22775.4 tonnes, LMass 29488.2 tonnes, Cost MCr 1946.9, HP
216000
Performance: Accel 5.5 G (7.2 G empty, 5.1 G overloaded), Jump 4, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:45:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Joqlsha'-class Fighter (GTL11)

Joqlsha'-class Fighter (GTL11)

The Zhodani Consulate maintains its most advanced ships as a reserve, ready
to respond to any aggression. The Joqlsha' is one of the Consulate's most
advanced fighters. Improved thrusters let a small fighter carry enough
armour to thwart Imperial turret weaponry at long range, while still
providing enough thrust for a respectable acceleration.

Crew: pilot, gunner

20-ton SL Hull, DR 2200, PD 4, Turret with 3 lasers, Basic stealth, Basic
emission cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, Psionic Switches, 14 Maneuver, no cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km
3 390-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng 112000
km, FP 5
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 307.3 tonnes, LMass 307.3 tonnes, Cost MCr 13.9, HP 5700
Performance: Accel 4.1 G (4.1 G empty, 4.1 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
8411 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:45:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Shtiabr-class Intelligence Frigate (GTL11)

Shtiabr-class Intelligence Frigate (GTL11)

The Zhodani Consulate, like any interstellar state, needs up-to-date
intelligence on what its neighbours are doing. Shtiabr-class intelligence
frigates are one means of acquiring this information. Radically stealthed
and with enough fuel for two consecutive 4 parsec jumps, they slip over the
border to gather data, then slip back again. Although they never seek out
trouble, they are armed and armoured enough to give pause to any patrol
vessel that waylays them.

Crew: 5 bridge crew, 3 engineers, 14 gunners, 2 medics, 1 auxiliary crew, 4
frozen watch, 4 scientists

3000-ton USL Hull, DR 2500, PD 4, 10 Turrets with 3 lasers each, 2 Particle
Beam Bays, Radical stealth, Radical emission cloaking, Hardened Command
Bridge, Psionic Switches, Engineering, 200 Maneuver, 150 Jump, 2400 Fuel,
10 Fuel Processors (30.0 hours), 15 Staterooms, Low Berth (holds 4
cryotubes), 6 Utility, Vehicle Bay (Shebzhinj Launch), Sickbay, Probe
Module, Survey Module, 41 cargo

Communicators: Radio 3 million km, Laser 6 million km, Meson 0.1 million km
Sensors: PESA 80000 km, AESA 240000 km, Radscanner 6400 km
30 390-MJ Lasers: Imp, Acc 32, Dmg 8dx50(2), 1/2D Rng 41630 km, MxRng
112000 km, FP 5
2 Particle Beam Bays: Imp, Acc 33, Dmg 6dx1500, Rng 23400 km, MxRng 70220
km, FP 63
Note: all weapons have SS 30, RoF 1/60

Statistics: EMass 12332.5 tonnes, LMass 12556.4 tonnes, Cost MCr 1262.0, HP
151500
Performance: Accel 1.4 G (1.5 G empty, 1.4 G overloaded), Jump 4, Air Speed
0 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:45:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Shebzhinj-class Launch (GTL11)

Shebzhinj-class Launch (GTL11)

One of the most common launches in the Zhodani Consulate, the Shebzhinj is
found in both military and civilian service.

Crew: pilot
Passengers: 12

10-ton SL Hull, DR 100, PD 4, Hardened Cockpit, Psionic Switches, 1
Maneuver, Passenger Couch (holds 12 people), 5 cargo

Communicators: Radio 0.3 million km, Laser 0.6 million km
Sensors: PESA 16000 km, AESA 80000 km, Radscanner 1600 km

Statistics: EMass 15.3 tonnes, LMass 38.0 tonnes, Cost MCr 3.0, HP 3000
Performance: Accel 2.4 G (5.9 G empty, 0.7 G overloaded), Jump 0, Air Speed
3098 km/h

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:57:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: .tar.z and *.z

Michael Houghton wrote:
> 
> Howdy!
> 
> William Hostman wrote in response to someone:
> > you need GNUzip, not PKzip; stuffit doesn't do tar or gzip.
> >
> The Expander Enhancer adds the ability to unstuff tar and gzip. At least my copy
> does...

Yeah, the real pisser is that Stuffit Expander for Windows does it all without
having to buy expander enhancer. :-(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:00:59 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: character generators

I'm trying to find a T4 char generator for a PC platform but not having any
luck.
Could some kind soul point me in the right direction.
Thanks in advance
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:11:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Tech question

Hi all.  It sounds like what Jesse wants is just the ability to land a
ship in a pool of air.  Why not make a room with grav plates at the bottom
and an open top?  The ships could just land down into it.  Would a 1g
floor field hold 1 atmosphere? Hmm, somehow I think there's a flaw in my
mental picture, but I can't put my finger on it...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:35:40 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battledress...

As a representative for shipwrecked aliens on this rock I object, we do not
have an empire, we are decended from an anarchic combine.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:35:37 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Sectors

How about a list from people who have done things in the various sectors of
the Traveller Universe. For example I am currently working on the Banners
sector for a pocket empires game in TNE which of course means I am having to
generate all the pre-collapse data for the sector.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:37:55 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Tech question

I think that the problem may be that on Earth (a 1G field) to get 1
atmosphere of pressure the atmosphere is how many km high?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:51:50 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: character generators

In a message dated 7/12/99 9:58:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
strebe@intergate.bc.ca writes:

<< I'm trying to find a T4 char generator for a PC platform but not having any
 luck.
 Could some kind soul point me in the right direction.
 Thanks in advance
 Dave
 
  >>

If you find one let me know too! 

Thanks, 
Old Traveller. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:15:07 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> Welcome to the TML 3D Club!!!

 We have a Club?

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:20:26 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

>>The confusion comes from the use of the letter X, which in the case of
>>"Mac OS X" means that they haven't definitely determined the number that
>>they will assign to the next version of their OS. This is not the same
>>X as we find in Unix / Linux "X-Windows".
>
>I thought that X was 10 in Roman Numerals, as OSX is due out after OS9
>ships (next year?).

The "X" in OS X is the roman number 10, is pronounced "ten", and has
nothing to do with the X Window system. OS 9 is a registered trademark of
Microware Systems Inc. for their computer operating system. Apple cannot
sell an operating system of that name without infringing the trademark and
confusing a heck of a lot of people.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:22:25 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

>>Yes, we know this, but when do these facts become known in the
>>Imperium?  I'm not at all clear on some of this myself.
>>
>>- --Glenn
>>
>>Paranoid thought for the day:  The Hivers are actually a Droyne
>>manipulation!


>Interest in the droyne in general could have started anytime after 0.

>that time, just after they were given Major Race status.  This doesn't
>necessarily mean that everyone knew the Ancients were droyne, only that the
>droyne were there, like humans (which essentially they were).


>By the 900's investigation into the droyne had stopped cold, so any
>possible Ancient sites on droyne worlds would not be known (if they hadn't
>already been discovered).  Things that had been discovered about the droyne
>were suppressed, and forgotten by the general public.

>By the 1100s the Ancient/Droyne connection is known only to highly
>specialized researchers with access to Ancients sites.  The continuing

>The average public knowledge of Ancients is that they were likely humans
>(especially if you are Solomani or Geonee) and that they kept other races
>as servants, such as droyne and vargr.  Maybe some laymen who have done
>lots of reading on the subject might know of theory that the droyne are the
>Ancients.

>These are just random thoughts based on canon events.  To my knowledge
>nothing much is said exactly about who knows what.
>
>Joe

This seems to make sense and match canon.  Something that has come to my
mind is the Ancients as religion, Droyne-worship, or a Humaniti/Vargr
Droyne-worship cult. The coynes, Droyne caste ceremonies, Droyne psionics
all would fit nicely into a cult background. Perhaps as an offshoot of the
Church of the Chosen Ones in which Humanity has been accepted in a lesser or
even equal role.  A great plot hook would be for a group of PC's to be hired
to take such a group to an interdicted Droyne world or perhaps the PC's
could be members of such a cult. The response of the Droyne would be most
interesting, especially since they would find that the believers really did
believe in their deepest mind.

Oh so many plot devices and so little gaming time.:(


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #851
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 12 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 852



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Lead on CT items
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Battledress...
Re: Battledress [long]...
Re: Armour Limits
Re: tech question
Re: .tar .Z
RE: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control
Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
re: tech question
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Dark Nebula Data?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:27:22 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Lead on CT items

My Friendly Local Gaming Store (tm) just picked up a number of hard-to-find
classic Traveller items for a song, and should be willing to sell them for
a reasonable amount. They have always been very good about mail orders.
You'll have to inquire by phone about prices.

The selection (from memory, and after I got my pick) includes:

Fifth Frontier War (EX)
Snapshot (8x11 version) (EX)
Striker (1st Ed -- with all charts) (EX)
Traveller's Digest, #6 (2x), #7, #8 (all VG)
Early Adventures (from TD#1-4, by DGP) (VG)
a couple of Alien Modules, but I don't remember which

The store is:

Compleat Games and Hobbies
326 North Tejon
Colorado Springs, CO  80903
USA
(719) 473-1116

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:49:31 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Unofficial of course :)  There's give or take about eight people out there
that are creating or have created original 3D content for Traveller.  I
haven't seen anything new from several of them for quite some time though.
The two that have recently sprung up seem to be cranking away.  I've been
working with Andy Akins' learning pains with Lightwave (and he's coming
RIGHT along if you look at his LF-78).  I know Mark Cook is ITCHING to get
in on the Lightwave fun but hasn't been able to drop the cash **YET**, but
I've a feeling that he'll be along soon.  Haven't seen anything new from
Mike Linsenmyer in some time.  With luck he's concentrating on creating some
more original content instead of adapting existing models (this is not a
knock though as you can LEARN from that).

Those are the major players.  My apologies if I've forgotten someone or have
never seen your site.  If you've got a Traveller site with original 3D
content that you'd like me to take a look at, please e-mail me directly at
fenris@slip.net.

Very Best,
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Evyn MacDude
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:15 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
>
>
>
>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>
> > Welcome to the TML 3D Club!!!
>
>  We have a Club?
>
> --
> Evyn...
> Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
> Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
> Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
> Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
> Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:32:59 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

Re: tech question

>On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Jesse DeGraff wrote:

>> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a
large
>> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
>> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an analogy to Star Wars' magnetic
>> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
>> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?
>
>No.
>
>For ships of the escort/destroyer size range you're talking about, it is
>impractical to put them in a pressurized bay--it's much simpler to leave
>the bay open and use umbilical access tubes to connect to the ship (for
>loading and departure) and service the exterior via vacc suits, remote
>robots or waldo-equipped service vehicles.
>Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
>enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
>open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
>station.

If for some reason it is necessary that work be carried on in an atmosphere
a portable tent or even hard blister affair could be attached to the hull to
allow maintenance personnel to work in a shirt-sleeve environment. (Just as
they now do on ocean vessels, where work below the water-line must be done
outside the water.) Such a tent might be used to prevent small parts from
floating away. Gravity control might even be used to allow the hull to
always be down, or a platform at right angles to the hull might allow a
worker to stand just so the work was at a comfortable working height.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:50:08 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: tech question

Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net> wrote:

> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a large
> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?

Mike Peters wrote:

> Canon has various references to "domed cities" on vacc or hostile
> environment worlds. Yet nowhere in Canon (that I could find!) is a
> refernce to a feild covered city. Therefore there is no such feild in
> the OTU. Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a
> rigid dome, if it was available it would have been mentioned at lest
> once.

There's some obscure references.  Clavius research park on Luna has its
atmosphere held in by a "gravitic dome" that's open to space.  The dome
had been running uninterrupted for over two *thousand* years, I think,
since the Long Night.  This was in the article on Luna written by Marc
Miller for Dragon #87, as part of the series they were running on the 
Moon in various SFRPGs.

I also think there's a reference in the Darrian alien module of a grav
domed undersea city that survived the Maghiz (protected by the ice cap
and at least tens of meters of seawater).  That one might have had a
network of grav modules in a geodesic frame to hold back the sea; I'd
have to look.

However, it's not clear to me that you'd want to fly a starship or an
air/raft through one of these domes.  The impression I take away from
this is that gravitics are very reliable, though, and that gravitic
structures aren't uncommon.  There's that floating building in one of
the Double Adventures (shipped to a backwater, low-tech world!), and
references to entire flying *cities*!  (These presumably avoid storms,
since there's also mentions of storms violent enough to ground air/raft
travel -- but if you've also got gravitic domes, you might just be able
to fly over storms.) 

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:47:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress...

At 05:38 PM 7/11/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>You asked if I had been fired upon?  What that has to do with a fantasy
>(sorry, sci-fi) game I don't know, I'm not sure.  Please explain what my
>being fired upon in r/l has to do with your fantasy of GT BD?
>
>The other way of taking it (but I really didn't want to go there) was , that
>it sounded in your question like (in relation to BD), "Have you ever been
>shot at?  Well I have and I'm glad I had 90% protection from it!" which I
>can only assume to be a fantasy thing anyway, as I don't know of any 90%
>protective body armour.  So what does it have to do with it again?

*sigh*  When I was shot at, I desperately wished that I had that kind of
protection.  Once again, you are putting things into my mouth.

>> If I post two messages, with headers, where I agree with other's ideas,
>> will you agree to pay me $50,000?
>
>You value yourself high, and yes, you have agreed with several (and I'm sure
>you would for payment), but only when they have agreed with you anyway (I am
>yet to see you post about downgrading BD and not fielding IM's in combat
>situations without BD).  Do you do "anything" for money?

I'm easy, not cheap. :)

Since you go off on a tangent, I'll assume that you can't cover your claim.

I haven't posted about downgrading BD?  See my response to the '"Sane"
battledress' post, where I praised a suit of BD that had about half the
armor I originally proposed.

>> I hate anime, and don't read comics.  In the "real World", there is no FTL
>> drive, aliens descended from wolves, or star-spanning empires.  Perhaps
>> you should remember that this is a science-fiction RPG, not a modern day 
>> RPG.

>Perhaps you should... your stuff is quite acceptable to that media I
>believe.

Sorry, but I looked at the prices in a comic book store the other day.
Yeesh!  I can rember getting ten comic books for a dollar back when I was a
kid!  Now they're all $1.25 and up!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:51:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress [long]...

At 05:17 PM 7/11/99 +1000, you wrote:

>> What started this was my description of the modified disad Combat
>> Paralysis for troops used to fighting in battledress.

>Yes, because IM's are not multi-task units and don't fight outside of BD
>under any circumstances, hence the disad option.  Semantics, I apologise for
>my generalisation.

Congratulations, you are the second person ever to be kill filed by me in
the TML.

If I thought it would make any difference, I would send you the posts in
which I discuss the different uniforms of the IMF, the circumstances where
they would fight un augmented, but you are just being a pain.  It's obvious
that you don't even read what I write, and only are interested in
continuing a fizzle war that everyone else has moved on from.  Your recent
posts have been nothing but attacks and misquotes.

*plonk*
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:32:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Armour Limits

Robert Prior writes:

> Velocity _does_ matter for kinetic energy: Ek = 1/2 * mass * velocity ** 2
> 
> The problem I had was that the original poster (forget who) said that the
> damage for a missile was related to "relative acceleration". After finally
> digging out GT I see that it's related to relative _velocity_, which is
> what it should be, although the relationship is linear (which isn't quite
> correct but I can accept it as a reasonable gaming simplification, seeing
> as so many gamers seem to find arithmetic hard during the game).

Given that 'damage' (in GURPS, and also in Traveller) isn't linear in energy, its closer to proportional to the square root of energy, multiplying by velocity is just fine.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:40:44 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: tech question

At 09:16 PM 12/07/1999 +1200, you wrote:
>>Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a rigid dome
>
>Perhaps relying on a field generator isn't good for real estate prices? <g>
>
>I know I'd be unhappy about the concept of relying wholly on an electrically
>generated field for life - drop it for seconds and it'd be all over!  Even
>in a cruiser in a vacuum you wouldn't die (except in extreme circumstances)
>from short term power outages.
>
>Definately TL*lots* though, imho.
>
>Mike.
>
        Sorry, Mike, this is the wrong mindset.  Grav-cities are canon.
Which is why the Virus attack killed so many....  Stations inside gas giants
that depend on CG and manuever to avoid plumeting in...  billion-person
establishments on vaccum worlds.... etc, etc...  dozens if not hundred of
examples where "the concept of relying wholly on an electrically generated
field for life" is *routine*...  The culture of a TL10+ society where fusion
is small and cheap means power outages are presumably a non-issue.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:57:53 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: .tar .Z

>William Hostman wrote in response to someone:
> >
> >BTW, I used that Stuffit from the Aladdin site and it won't decode those
> >.z files from the Xboat directory either.
> >
> >Here is a sample filename :
> >
> >xboat-v1996-n000-n009_bun.z
> >
> >After installing Alladin's "Stuffit Expander", these files are now
> >labeled
> >Alladin Stuffit Archives, but when I try to open one I ge this error :
> >
> >"The data read from this archive or encoded file was not in the expected
> >format"
> 
> you need GNUzip, not PKzip; stuffit doesn't do tar or gzip.
> 
>The Expander Enhancer adds the ability to unstuff tar and gzip. At least my 
copy
>does...

 And the full Stuffit Deluxe does as well, though through the "Translate" 
menu (on a Mac) instead of a regular "Open"...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:06:03 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Droyne & The Ancients

> Yes, we know this, but when do these facts become known in the
> Imperium?  I'm not at all clear on some of this myself.

That was my main concern when I asked the original question.

I have started to compile a database of library data and am trying to index
different versions of entries for different time periods as well as for
different security clearances and areas. The idea being that I can set the
current game date as well as the area/original database owners (Imperial,
Zhodani, etc.) as presets in the interface.

I started this out to help keep the multi-dimensional nature of this data
straighten my own head, but then thought of using it in a game.

I can present players with an interface that they can query and retrieve
articles based on whatever passwords/security clearances they have access
too.

I've really enjoyed all the information and ideas that have come out of this
thread.

G.D.D.
======
"There ain't no rules around here.  We're trying to accomplish
something." -Thomas Edison

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:13:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control

Jens Maskus writes:
> 
> I always thought that at light second ranges or more the acceleration or
> "normal velocity" doesn't matter because the  direction of a target is
> predictable. 

It depends on if the target is involved in evasive movement, and on how fast
it can change its vector of acceleration.  At one light-second, there's
basically a two second delay for sensor lag and weapons fire delay.  If you
assume that a ship can instantly change direction of thrust (which is
optimistic, of course) a 1 G ship can be anywhere within 20 meters of the
'expected' position; a 6G ship can be anywhere within 120 meters, which is
enough that a Tigress can attempt to dodge.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:13:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control

Jens Maskus writes:
> 
> I always thought that at light second ranges or more the acceleration or
> "normal velocity" doesn't matter because the  direction of a target is
> predictable. 

It depends on if the target is involved in evasive movement, and on how fast
it can change its vector of acceleration.  At one light-second, there's
basically a two second delay for sensor lag and weapons fire delay.  If you
assume that a ship can instantly change direction of thrust (which is
optimistic, of course) a 1 G ship can be anywhere within 20 meters of the
'expected' position; a 6G ship can be anywhere within 120 meters, which is
enough that a Tigress can attempt to dodge.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:24:19 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

Steven,

Personally I'm not sure that gravitics would be the answer to
atmosphereic control. In the case you site of a park on Luna (sorry no
refence, I've never been a big Dragon reader) I can buy. If you found or
made a deep, crater, lined the floor with grav plates and dropped air in
is would stay there (with some slow loss over time. However, it would
have to be a DEEP crater to give the proper pressure, or you would have
to have the gravity a conciderably more than one gee to compress the
atmospheric "lake".

Using gravitics to repel water however I"m not sure I buy into (I'll
pull out my Darriens book and read it over). Evern if you used gravitics
on a local region of water to make it "weightless" I would think that
pressure would force it to fill the "bubble", unless the entire body of
water was also make weighless, thus releiving the pressure problem.

An electrostatic charge (soap bubble) effect might work to contain
atmosphere. In that case though, I'd think that "breaking" it, by moving
a ship through it would cause a loss of the atmoshere being contained.
Not to mention the effects that the feild itself would have on the
ship's electronics. Not sure what power would be needed to contain the
air.

Of course my veiws a filtered through my picture of the Trav universe,
and, therefore, less than perfect.

Mike
 
Steven Bonneville wrote:
>
> There's some obscure references.  Clavius research park on Luna has its
> atmosphere held in by a "gravitic dome" that's open to space.  The dome
> had been running uninterrupted for over two *thousand* years, I think,
> since the Long Night.  This was in the article on Luna written by Marc
> Miller for Dragon #87, as part of the series they were running on the
> Moon in various SFRPGs.
> 
> I also think there's a reference in the Darrian alien module of a grav
> domed undersea city that survived the Maghiz (protected by the ice cap
> and at least tens of meters of seawater).  That one might have had a
> network of grav modules in a geodesic frame to hold back the sea; I'd
> have to look.
> 
> However, it's not clear to me that you'd want to fly a starship or an
> air/raft through one of these domes.  The impression I take away from
> this is that gravitics are very reliable, though, and that gravitic
> structures aren't uncommon.  There's that floating building in one of
> the Double Adventures (shipped to a backwater, low-tech world!), and
> references to entire flying *cities*!  (These presumably avoid storms,
> since there's also mentions of storms violent enough to ground air/raft
> travel -- but if you've also got gravitic domes, you might just be able
> to fly over storms.)
> 
>   -- Steve Bonneville

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:31:24 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Smith <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: tech question


>>Since it would  be more useful in city construction than a rigid dome
>
>Perhaps relying on a field generator isn't good for real estate prices? <g>
>
>I know I'd be unhappy about the concept of relying wholly on an
electrically
>generated field for life - drop it for seconds and it'd be all over!  Even
>in a cruiser in a vacuum you wouldn't die (except in extreme circumstances)
>from short term power outages.
>
>Definately TL*lots* though, imho.


You must be pretty unhappy already if you live in a modern, industrialized
country!

Most of us already rely on an electrically powered web (and I don't mean the
WWW) for life. If all of the electrical power in the world went off
tomorrow, and stayed off, how many people would die? Hundreds of millions? A
billion? Maybe more?

Few people give a second thought to how precariously our own society is
balanced. Traveller isn't our own society of course If you've got really,
really cheap fusion power, then power consumption and output would very
nearly become a non-issue.

Sure, you might have people with phobias, just like there are still people
who are afraid of flying, but ultimately most people will never even notice
unless something happens. Of course, at that point it's too late.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:45:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

Michael Peters writes:
> 
> Steven,
> 
> Personally I'm not sure that gravitics would be the answer to
> atmosphereic control. In the case you site of a park on Luna (sorry no
> refence, I've never been a big Dragon reader) I can buy. If you found or
> made a deep, crater, lined the floor with grav plates and dropped air in
> is would stay there (with some slow loss over time. However, it would
> have to be a DEEP crater to give the proper pressure, or you would have
> to have the gravity a conciderably more than one gee to compress the
> atmospheric "lake".

Heh.  Deep indeed -- a 100 kilometer deep lake would still lose air at a considerable rate, unless it was also very cold.  Of course, a million Gs over a spread of about a meter would probably do decent job of holding in atmosphere, but that doesn't seem to be available with traveller technology.
> 
> Using gravitics to repel water however I"m not sure I buy into (I'll
> pull out my Darriens book and read it over). Evern if you used gravitics
> on a local region of water to make it "weightless" I would think that
> pressure would force it to fill the "bubble", unless the entire body of
> water was also make weighless, thus releiving the pressure problem.
> 
> An electrostatic charge (soap bubble) effect might work to contain
> atmosphere. In that case though, I'd think that "breaking" it, by moving
> a ship through it would cause a loss of the atmoshere being contained.
> Not to mention the effects that the feild itself would have on the
> ship's electronics. Not sure what power would be needed to contain the
> air.
> 
> Of course my veiws a filtered through my picture of the Trav universe,
> and, therefore, less than perfect.
> 
> Mike
>  
> Steven Bonneville wrote:
> >
> > There's some obscure references.  Clavius research park on Luna has its
> > atmosphere held in by a "gravitic dome" that's open to space.  The dome
> > had been running uninterrupted for over two *thousand* years, I think,
> > since the Long Night.  This was in the article on Luna written by Marc
> > Miller for Dragon #87, as part of the series they were running on the
> > Moon in various SFRPGs.
> > 
> > I also think there's a reference in the Darrian alien module of a grav
> > domed undersea city that survived the Maghiz (protected by the ice cap
> > and at least tens of meters of seawater).  That one might have had a
> > network of grav modules in a geodesic frame to hold back the sea; I'd
> > have to look.
> > 
> > However, it's not clear to me that you'd want to fly a starship or an
> > air/raft through one of these domes.  The impression I take away from
> > this is that gravitics are very reliable, though, and that gravitic
> > structures aren't uncommon.  There's that floating building in one of
> > the Double Adventures (shipped to a backwater, low-tech world!), and
> > references to entire flying *cities*!  (These presumably avoid storms,
> > since there's also mentions of storms violent enough to ground air/raft
> > travel -- but if you've also got gravitic domes, you might just be able
> > to fly over storms.)
> > 
> >   -- Steve Bonneville
> 
> -- 
> Mike Peters
> travelleri@home.com
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:54:03 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

>structures aren't uncommon.  There's that floating building in one of
>the Double Adventures (shipped to a backwater, low-tech world!),


Isn't the Imperial palace a gravitically suspended sphere floating over the
surface of Capital/Core? I seem to remember this description from some TNS
entries.

Or maybe I am getting it confused with the floating palace in the Eye of
the World series of books (eek!)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:12:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tech question

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You must be pretty unhappy already if you live in a modern, industrialized
country!

Most of us already rely on an electrically powered web (and I don't mean the
WWW) for life. If all of the electrical power in the world went off
tomorrow, and stayed off, how many people would die? Hundreds of millions? A billion? Maybe more?

Few people give a second thought to how precariously our own society is
balanced.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the difference is how fast people died off.

In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.
Compare that to an entire city of millions, where everyone dies in
a matter of minutes if the grav support fails. It would take days
(or even months) for our society to suffer those kinds of casualties
from power loss, giving us some time to try and fix things.

Granted, our current high-tech societies use technology to keep
us alive in the long term. You can't support thousands of people
per square mile with hunter-gatherer technology.

Walt Smith
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:25:45 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> 
>> Yes, we know this, but when do these facts become known in the
>> Imperium?  I'm not at all clear on some of this myself.

Neither am I, but these latest posts have been a goldmine in that regard!
>
> That was my main concern when I asked the original question.
>
> I have started to compile a database of library data and am trying to index
> different versions of entries for different time periods as well as for
> different security clearances and areas. The idea being that I can set the
> current game date as well as the area/original database owners (Imperial,
> Zhodani, etc.) as presets in the interface.

That is such an awesome idea. What platform will you do this in? I am on a
Mac, hint hint ;)
>
> I started this out to help keep the multi-dimensional nature of this data
> straighten my own head, but then thought of using it in a game.

It would be absolutely invaluable in a game, it could change the face of
gaming forever! ;) I am wondering if the same model could be adapted to
other meliux? The Storyteller stuff could really use this kinda thing. So
could a lot of other games I imagine.
>
> I can present players with an interface that they can query and retrieve
> articles based on whatever passwords/security clearances they have access
> too.
>
Again: COOLIO! The more the interface helps to suspend your disbelief, the
better. Berhaps a Ships Nav-Comp. overlaid to handle where they get the data
from? Of course date must come first... A module the players can edit for
their Ship's Computer?

> I've really enjoyed all the information and ideas that have come out of this
> thread.

This is one really awesome List, I find a lot of the threads (Xenobiology,
Orbital Dynamics, this thread) highly informative.
>
> G.D.D.
> ======
> "There ain't no rules around here.  We're trying to accomplish
> something." -Thomas Edison
>
Did he *really* say that? Ain't?

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:23:13 -0700
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Nebula Data?

I'm not sure about the GEnie files... but I have the DGP Solomani & Aslan
book that has the sector map and data for Dark Nebula.  The first thing I
noticed is that the typical bases aren't their.

Codes:
T: Tlaukhu Naval Base
R: Clan Naval Base
U Tlaukhu and Clan Naval Bases both present

Tlaukhu Naval Bases support the operations of interstellar naval units
belonging to particular clans of the Twenty-Nine.

Clan Naval Bases support baval operations for lesser clans and are generally
smaller and not as well equiped.

Their are other base codes that I couldn't find a reference for: F and J. I
assume they are Aslan Scout bases and way stations... but I have no basis
for that claim other than guessing.

I wonder if TravTools has trouble with reading the Aslan base codes. I don't
know anything about travtools, so I wouldn't know.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 2:53 AM
Subject: Dark Nebula Data?


> Anybody got the Dark Nebula data in TravTools format by any chance?  I
can't
> figure out where the bases are with the GEnie format files on the CORE
site.
>
> Thanxx in advance...
>
> Keven
>
> --
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
>                                                      Science-Fiction
Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #852
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 12 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 853



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: tech question
Re: Lead on CT items
Re:Tech Question
Re: tech question
Re : Superconductor Questions (Vaccuum flowers, longish)
Re: tech question
Re: Dark Nebula Data? 
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: Lead on CT items
Re: Dark Nebula Data? 
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: Lead on CT items
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey (was: Droyne & The Ancients)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:41:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: tech question

Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> 
> Isn't the Imperial palace a gravitically suspended sphere floating over the
> surface of Capital/Core? I seem to remember this description from some TNS
> entries.
> 

Yes it is. It's the 'new' one, rebuilt after the Civil War.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:53:16 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Lead on CT items

Christopher Thrash posted:
>
>My Friendly Local Gaming Store (tm) just picked up a number of hard-to-find
>classic Traveller items for a song, and should be willing to sell them for
>a reasonable amount. They have always been very good about mail orders.
>You'll have to inquire by phone about prices.
<snip>
>The store is:
>
<snip>
>Colorado Springs, CO  80903

Ooooh, this brings up an important question (important to me, at least).
I'm spending this weekend in Mount Crested Butte, Colorado. Is there
a FLGS in town?

Given that it's forecasted to rain, I'd hate to be stuck in my hotel
room reading a non-Traveller book. Pity I can't bring my campaign
laptop but I promised my wife I wouldn't bring any Traveller material
since we're celebrating our wedding anniversary on this trip.

I mean I never said I wouldn't _look_ for it. If I just _happen_ to
run across it, it's not my fault, is it? Is it?

(AWRIGHT, AWRIGHT, I ADMIT IT! 'takes a deep breath'

"My name is David Smart and I'm..I'm..a Traveller fanatic. 'sob')

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:57:41 +0100
From: "Nicholas Wright" <Nick@corlecca.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re:Tech Question

As far as I can tell, if you have a large body like a "Death Star"tm then
you can get Air / gas to pool in any depressions in it just from its size.
(DStm is mistaken for a small moon at one point.)  There is canon for
planets having valleys/caves with air but not ships AFAIK.  If you increase
the pull by having floor grav plates rather than the "sidewall" grav plates
of SWtm then you should be able to keep the "well" full.  Remember also that
O2 is heavier than N2 so for an Earth standard atmosphere the O2 will sink
to the bottom more (just more not totally).

BUT

What are you going to use for an Ozone layer to keep the UV down to
manageable levels so that everyone doesn't have to go around in full
spacesuits.  Lucas couldn't solve that one fully.

I remain etc, etc

Nick Wright

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:47:39 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

My point was not that GRAVITICS are unsafe (although the Darriens DON'T
build floating cities any more ;>). Rather, that I don't believe
gravitics, at least as portrayed in the OTU could produce the desire
effect for trapping an atmosphere, without being turned up so high as to
make living in that area... uncomfortable, to say the least.

The point I was trying to make was that if there was a field generator
that could trap air in the way Jesse was asking about, then it would be
in more common use than mechanical domes. Since physical domes are
susceptible to physical effects (i.e.. earthquakes, etc.) if a field
effect was available, it WOULD be in COMMON use, JUST LIKE gravitic
buildings, cities, etc. are. Therefore, by inference, such a feild DOES
NOT EXIST.

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
> >
> > Isn't the Imperial palace a gravitically suspended sphere floating over the
> > surface of Capital/Core? I seem to remember this description from some TNS
> > entries.
> >
> 
> Yes it is. It's the 'new' one, rebuilt after the Civil War.
> 
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 05:52:08 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Superconductor Questions (Vaccuum flowers, longish)

Charles Collin wrote :-
> 1. Has anyone given any serious thought to the ecology/biology of
 > vaccuum flowers?  How realistic is this idea?

I started a thread a little while ago on Xenobiology.
For what it's worth, here's my Cr 0.02 :-
To recap, it would appear that life requires energy, building blocks and
a solvent for reactions to happen in.
	The problem is that liquids turn into gas ('boil') when the vapour
pressure of the liquid is equal to ambient pressure. 
	Unless the world is very cold or enjoys continual refilling from some
source (e.g. surface ice), the solvent system isn't going to last very
long, since the ambient pressure is effectively zero.
	Since we require a relatively low ambient temperature, the energy
contribution from the planet's star is going to be quite small as the
planet must be an outer one. A vaccuum flower must have a very low
metabolic rate if it is primarily 'fuelled' by its local star.
	Let's try another tack.
	The 'vaccuum flower' exploits the temperature differential between the
surface and some distance 'underground' (geothermal activity or tidal
heating from a nearby gas giant) to generate the energy it needs to
perform metabolic tasks. The 'flower' is a form of ruggedised 'root'
system!
	A thriving ecosphere may exist in the ice a few feet below the surface,
supported by the plant (a 'primary producer').
	A variety of low-temperature solvents may fit the bill (but may
unfortunately not be much use for creating superconductors) - e.g.
ammonia, sulphur dioxide, phosphorus trifluoride - the last remains
liquid down to -160 degrees C.

> 2. What are the problems involved in a plant producing superconductive
> organics? 
AFAIK, all high temperature superconductors so far are ceramics, complex
rare earth and transition metal oxides - and no-one has yet been able to
postulate a satisfactory theory of how they work.
	These (or similar) compounds may have been deposited in the root system
of our plant as structural material (analogous to the calcium salts
deposited in bone, or the silica skeletons of diatoms) in combination
with some 'biological' material (bone = calcium salts + collagen).
	The superconductivity effect may have been a serendipitous one. Small
'stripes' of superconductor may have been laid down by the cells of the
plant to increase rootlet structural strength - then voila! 
	Abundant energy....

> 3. What is the state of superconductors in the Imperium?  Do they have
> room temp ones?  High temp ones?  Would there be a market for a plant that
> produced relatively high-temp superconductive materials?

In DGP material and MT, room temperature superconduction was an Early or
Average Stellar TL development ('metaconductors'). They are everywhere
at typical Imperial tech levels.

Our vaccuum flower would definitely be a biological curiousity, and
possibly useful for supplying cheap power for outer zone bases or
beacons, etc. (although fusion power is so very cheap).


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:15:19 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tech question

Jetrock  wrote:

>Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
>enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
>open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
>station.

Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:30:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Nebula Data? 

> > Anybody got the Dark Nebula data in TravTools format by any chance?  I
> can't
> > figure out where the bases are with the GEnie format files on the CORE
> site.
> >
> > Thanxx in advance...
> 
> I'm not sure about the GEnie files... but I have the DGP Solomani & Aslan
> book that has the sector map and data for Dark Nebula.  The first thing I
> noticed is that the typical bases aren't their.

The main prob I have with the GEnie format files is, I have no bloody clue 
*what* bases are in there.  They're not in their normal place.  The whole 
sector is baseless, as far as I can tell...
 
> Codes:
> T: Tlaukhu Naval Base
> R: Clan Naval Base
> U Tlaukhu and Clan Naval Bases both present
> 
> Tlaukhu Naval Bases support the operations of interstellar naval units
> belonging to particular clans of the Twenty-Nine.
> 
> Clan Naval Bases support baval operations for lesser clans and are generally
> smaller and not as well equiped.
> 
> Their are other base codes that I couldn't find a reference for: F and J. I
> assume they are Aslan Scout bases and way stations... but I have no basis
> for that claim other than guessing.
> 
> I wonder if TravTools has trouble with reading the Aslan base codes. I don't
> know anything about travtools, so I wouldn't know.

TT doesn't do much with the base code except show it in the subsector maps as 
their letter designation.  A code 'M' would display as M, for instance.

But you might wanna check out Traveller Tools.  It runs under DOS pretty 
good.  I was using it to generate subsector maps with Paint to save 'em off, 
then massaging them with some Linux tools, but I took Win9x totally off my 
computer a few months back.  I'm currently using Mark Nordstrand's Linux 
Traveller suite, but it's still in early beta.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:37:20 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Every known human society - and many animal ones (chimps, gorillas,
baboons, all the ceteceans, for example) - have played games of some
sort. Games would certainly exist in the 3I - no question about it.

Human games have several common features, so it is quite possible to
predict the types of game that would be there, just by knowing a bit
about the society. In this case, we have to rely on the canon since
everyone has their own idea about just how the Imperium works (hence
all the IMTU messages in this group). So - the major features of the
society.

1. Commercially based, mainly around megacorporations with
interstellar trade.
2. Politics are aristocratic, although the aristocrats are drawn from
the rich traders of the past (or present).
3. Military power is paramount - it is what enabled the imperium to
come to power. Hence the draft.
4. Crime is rife, and difficult to stop. The criminals can run across
light years.
5. Technology is rigidly controlled (by today's standards) and varies
widely.
6. Wealth can be extreme, and so can poverty.

GIven those six (my top six definitions of the Imperium - in order),
there are several types of game that are almost inevitable.

1. Counting strategy games, such as the African bush games played with
stones. Simple and cheap.
2. Territorial strategy games, with high tactical elements. Something
like the Japanese game of Go.
3. Gambling games played with cards, dice or other semi-random tools
such as coins.
4. Power games, with 'graded' levels of success. Backgammon, bridge
and whist as well as something like 'Moot'.
5. Wargames - probably abstracted, such as chess. Can't risk getting
too near to the real thing.
6. Stealing games, where you try to capture power items from
opponents. We don't have many of these.
7. Travel games, where you have to cross a certain area in particular
ways. Similar to Chinese Checkers, perhaps.
8. Games where the values of pices can be improved or degraded.
Perhaps like Chinese chess.
9. Monopoly-style games of finance and power.
10. Almost certainly, real gambling of power and influence using
constituency groups (like in Diplomacy).

Will there be games in the Imperium? For many, they could be expected
to be a way of life, IMHO.

- - -----Original Message-----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
<traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 12 July 1999 18:28
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I


>What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept
even
>still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on
Sylea and
>I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have
a
>gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming
recreation
>be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?
>
>I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes
and
>control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium
well
>expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'. 
>
>On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have
their
>own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I
think
>that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your
fingers in
>sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass
time,
>probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to
the
>med bay.
>
>- Michael 
>
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i

iQA/AwUBN4pSAN+RIMRAvRI5EQJxEgCePMQy4YVIj442MvOa1RF/+sCGJsUAnRBv
/8fc5pUB0U2vTZAQ4Pk2EXGa
=/Hla
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:38:49 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

> From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
> Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
> 
> What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
> still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and

Well, we can be sure that there are all sorts of games in the Far
Future, high-tech and low-tech, games of chance, games of skill, games
of outguessing or outpsyching your opponents, drinking games, sex games,
you name it.  But on Rigel 7, they play a man's game.  It's called
Fizz-bin. [ducking behind console]

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:14:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: tech question

>Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>You must be pretty unhappy already if you live in a modern, industrialized
>country!
>
>Most of us already rely on an electrically powered web (and I don't mean the
>WWW) for life. If all of the electrical power in the world went off
>tomorrow, and stayed off, how many people would die? Hundreds of millions?
>A billion? Maybe more?
>
>Few people give a second thought to how precariously our own society is
>balanced.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I think the difference is how fast people died off.
>
>In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
>would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.
>Compare that to an entire city of millions, where everyone dies in
>a matter of minutes if the grav support fails. It would take days
>(or even months) for our society to suffer those kinds of casualties
>from power loss, giving us some time to try and fix things.
>
>Granted, our current high-tech societies use technology to keep
>us alive in the long term. You can't support thousands of people
>per square mile with hunter-gatherer technology.
>
>Walt Smith

Remember last year's ice storm in Quebec? That killed power for a long time
for a lot of people. Some deaths, but not that many. Very few critical
system have no backups.

Which is why, when designing vehicles for T4 (102 Vehicles, another FREE
supplement from BITS), I always added a backup battery to grav vehicles.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:14:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: tech question

>Jetrock  wrote:
>
>>Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
>>enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
>>open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
>>station.
>
>Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
>million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt

Except that TL15 vacc suits are pretty unobtrusive. Scouts wear their's all
the time, with the membrane helmet rolled up in the collar, just in case
pressure drops. (Ref: WBH).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:15:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

>Every known human society - and many animal ones (chimps, gorillas,
>baboons, all the ceteceans, for example) - have played games of some
>sort. Games would certainly exist in the 3I - no question about it.
>
[snip]

>GIven those six (my top six definitions of the Imperium - in order),
>there are several types of game that are almost inevitable.
>
>1. Counting strategy games, such as the African bush games played with
>stones. Simple and cheap.
>2. Territorial strategy games, with high tactical elements. Something
>like the Japanese game of Go.
>3. Gambling games played with cards, dice or other semi-random tools
>such as coins.
>4. Power games, with 'graded' levels of success. Backgammon, bridge
>and whist as well as something like 'Moot'.
>5. Wargames - probably abstracted, such as chess. Can't risk getting
>too near to the real thing.
>6. Stealing games, where you try to capture power items from
>opponents. We don't have many of these.
>7. Travel games, where you have to cross a certain area in particular
>ways. Similar to Chinese Checkers, perhaps.
>8. Games where the values of pices can be improved or degraded.
>Perhaps like Chinese chess.
>9. Monopoly-style games of finance and power.
>10. Almost certainly, real gambling of power and influence using
>constituency groups (like in Diplomacy).

For what it's worth, Jeff Zeitlin and I have been working on 101
Recreations on and off for a while. (Mostly off since January, I'll admit.)
That's one of the projects I'd planned on getting to draft stage by August.
So far we have about 50 pages of material. Sounds like you should become a
contributor.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:43:24 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Lead on CT items

>My Friendly Local Gaming Store (tm) just picked up a number of hard-to-find
>classic Traveller items for a song, and should be willing to sell them for
>a reasonable amount. They have always been very good about mail orders.
>You'll have to inquire by phone about prices.


I contacted the store via phone... they've decided to sell the items on
eBay.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:51:09 -0700
From: "Shawn @ Electric Stitch" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Nebula Data? 

> The main prob I have with the GEnie format files is, I have no bloody clue
> *what* bases are in there.  They're not in their normal place.  The whole
> sector is baseless, as far as I can tell...
>
>> Codes:
>> T: Tlaukhu Naval Base
>> R: Clan Naval Base
>> U Tlaukhu and Clan Naval Bases both present
>>
>> Tlaukhu Naval Bases support the operations of interstellar naval units
>> belonging to particular clans of the Twenty-Nine.
>>
>> Clan Naval Bases support naval operations for lesser clans and are
generally
>> smaller and not as well equiped.
>>
>> Their are other base codes that I couldn't find a reference for: F and J.
I
>> assume they are Aslan Scout bases and way stations... but I have no basis
>> for that claim other than guessing.

Hex   Base Code
0112    R
0207    R
0337    R
0437    R
0503    F
0601    F
0603    F
0634    T
0822    F
0914    F
0926    F
1208    F
1304    F
1305    F
1313    F
1320    F
1412    F
1512    J
1521    F
1604    F
1620    F
1622    R
1705    F
1708    F
1716    F
1721    T
1724    T
1804    F
1825    F
1918    F
1919    U
1923    R
2105    J
2115    F
2121    R
2214    F
2218    F
2221    T
2230    R
2315    J
2335    T
2523    F
2527    F
2609    F
2610    F
2619    F
2635    T
2722    F
2732    F
2805    F
2819    J
2837    F
2904    J
2922    M
3005    F
3032    F
3033    F
3115    F
3116    F
3123    F
3202    F
3218    F
3223    F

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:46:30 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 02:15:03 -0400 (EDT), "Hughes, Michael"
<Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> wrote:

>What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
>still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
>I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
>gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming recreation
>be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?

As I see it, there will _always_ be a niche for 'traditional'
board games, although in higher-tech areas, they may be computer
programs that can play, act as a monitor for human players, or
both.

I suspect that in general, you will find the following games:

(1) a 'strategotactical' game such as chess, checkers, or go
(2) a 'chase' game such as backgammon, goose, or
    snakes-and-ladders
(3) 'dice' games (where the dice may not necessarily show numbers
    or be regular polyhedra - or even all identical)
(4) 'card' games (where the cards may not be sequenced, or may
    not be grouped [suits])

>I can see a game called 'Moot' where the players fight to win votes and
>control the august body, perhaps 'Expansion' based on the Imperium well
>expanding or a trading game called 'Megacorps' or 'Brokers'. 

All of these may very well be possibilities, but only for a
society that gets to the 'Monopoly' stage of game creation - in a
sense, these are early 'simulation' games. One issue with
'simulations' of this type is that their popularity is based on
the perception of the subject of the simulation, _and_ on the
'connection' of that subject to the players own lives/interests.
So, 'Monopoly', 'Megacorps', and 'Brokers' would not likely be
popular in a true communist society, nor 'Moot' in an anarchy,
nor 'Expansion' in a pacifist society.  Think about it...

>On another note, would various 'profession cultural' groupings have their
>own games, especially for between jumps ? I can see mumbly peg (I think
>that's the game where you stab a sharp instrument between your fingers in
>sequence, the fastest one winning (ala Aliens)) being a Belter pass time,
>probably combined with a high volume of alcohol and frequent trips to the
>med bay.

'Ordinary' gambling games fill this niche nicely, unless the
professional culture is one with a high level of machismo, and a
low requirement for dexterity.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:21:43 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Lead on CT items

> 
> I mean I never said I wouldn't _look_ for it. If I just _happen_ to
> run across it, it's not my fault, is it? Is it?
> 
> (AWRIGHT, AWRIGHT, I ADMIT IT! 'takes a deep breath'
> 
> "My name is David Smart and I'm..I'm..a Traveller fanatic. 'sob')
> 

Do yourself a BIG favor and take this trip to become just as fanatical
about your wife.  don't even think about traveller.  Spend all your time
with her being romantic.  We'll all still be here when you get back, and
your wife will love you all the more for it.  Remember how sensitive
women can be if they feel they are 'competing' for your attention.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:38:35 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> From: "Terry Carlino" 
> This seems to make sense and match canon.  Something that has come to my
> mind is the Ancients as religion, Droyne-worship, or a Humaniti/Vargr
> Droyne-worship cult. The coynes, Droyne caste ceremonies, Droyne psionics
> all would fit nicely into a cult background. Perhaps as an offshoot of
the
> Church of the Chosen Ones in which Humanity has been accepted in a lesser
or
> even equal role.  A great plot hook would be for a group of PC's to be
hired
> to take such a group to an interdicted Droyne world or perhaps the PC's
> could be members of such a cult. The response of the Droyne would be most
> interesting, especially since they would find that the believers really
did
> believe in their deepest mind.

I did the Ancients as religion thing a long time ago.  IMTU, it's kind of
a spacer joke, an excuse for traders, scouts and other space-bum riff-raff
to get together and throw wild parties.  The cult is centred in the
Spinward Marches, particularly at Regina and other major worlds with A
class ports.  It tends to be associated with drunken riots, where the
traders and scouts end up brawling with all the Navy (& Marine) personnel
they can find.  One particularly notorious year ended up with the Army,
Marines and Police firing tear-gas at each other.

What do the Droyne think about this?  Who knows?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:38:14 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey (was: Droyne & The Ancients)

I'm starting to work on an adventure for my next T4 game.  So far all that I 
had to hang the thing on was a title that popped into my head "Monkey, 
Monkey, Who's Got the Monkey"  But this Ancients/Droyne thread got me 
thinking and since I'm playing in Mil 0, before the Solomani hypothesis, I 
think the adventure will now revolve around various cultisits, biologists and 
political groups trying to get their hands on a real Terran chimpanzee for 
biological comparison.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #853
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 854



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey (was: Droyne & The Ancients)
Re: tech question
Re: Versions
Re: tech question 
Re: tech question
Base Codes (Re: Dark Nebula Data?) 
Re: Base Codes (Re: Dark Nebula Data?) 
Yet another one, picture that is
Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey
Re : tech question
Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey 
Address adn Phone
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: Sectors 
Re: Droyne & The Ancients 
Re: tech question
RE: tech question
RE: tech question 
Re: tech question
Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:47:59 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey (was: Droyne & The Ancients)

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I'm starting to work on an adventure for my next T4 game.  So far all that I
> had to hang the thing on was a title that popped into my head "Monkey,
> Monkey, Who's Got the Monkey"  But this Ancients/Droyne thread got me
> thinking and since I'm playing in Mil 0, before the Solomani hypothesis, I
> think the adventure will now revolve around various cultisits, biologists and
> political groups trying to get their hands on a real Terran chimpanzee for
> biological comparison.

As a kicker, throw in a bit of linguistic confusion, similar to the
pony/poni issue (or the Jynnan Tonnix from _Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy_)....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:13:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: tech question

>From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: tech question
...
>Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
>million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.

  FWIW, the 3I in particular should have lots of societies in which wearing
a pressure suit is more comfortable than anything else...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:28:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Versions

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Versions
...
>> The Zhodani Consulate, in addition to being devoted to truth, peace, justice,
>>harmony*, and the distribution of fluffy bunnies to children everywhere**, is
>>both larger and more advanced and has fundamentally cooler looking outfits,
>>which latter is kind of odd when you consider that the Solomani _are_ a bunch
>>of facists, after all...
>
>Hmm. Larger - maybe (will have to hunt out my Alien Modules to check).
>More Advanced - I believe that we have similar technologies and we are more
>liable to advance than your static, conservative society...

  So sorry, isn't it _obvious_ that "more advanced" applies to the social system
itself? Quite frankly, whatever SolSec is working towards doesn't impress
us, and
we'd be concerned if we thought that you could keep it all together long enough 
accomplish any of your mad dreams. The possibility of a great empire run by
madmen 
is distressing, however unlikely.

>Outfits - I cite the TML Great Old One Bruce Berry here "Embrace Fascism,
>the uniforms are cool". Anyway, turbans aren't as great a style statement
>as jackboots.

  I suggest you consider AM4 - you're dealing with a master race that not only
has great taste in headgear but also assigned itself comfy footwear; _they_ do
not miss the details that count, eh?

  Besides, we have drones for the messy work...

...
>But, in the spirit of the enemy of my enemy being my friend - the
>Confederation has suffered greatly from the expansionism of the Imperium.
>Perhaps you could start a 6th Frontier War at the same time as we start the
>2nd Great Patriotic War for the Liberation of Terra and the Solomani Race
>from Vilani Enslavement?

  We might pal up with the Vargr (at least they're treacherous in a somewhat
reliable fashion), but teaming up with the fools that arranged the Solomani 
Rim War (when doing well, throwing it all away is _dumb_) is too much.

  <ahem> I wouldn't trust you people to sit the right way on a lavatory...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:39:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: tech question 

> >In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
> >would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.
> >Compare that to an entire city of millions, where everyone dies in
> >a matter of minutes if the grav support fails. It would take days
> >(or even months) for our society to suffer those kinds of casualties
> >from power loss, giving us some time to try and fix things.
> >
> >Granted, our current high-tech societies use technology to keep
> >us alive in the long term. You can't support thousands of people
> >per square mile with hunter-gatherer technology.
> 
> Remember last year's ice storm in Quebec? That killed power for a long time
> for a lot of people. Some deaths, but not that many. Very few critical
> system have no backups.

Quebec is still in an environment that is favorable to humans, for the most part.  If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for instance, and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be toast.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:43:35 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 2:19 PM
Subject: re: tech question


>I think the difference is how fast people died off.


I'm not sure that there is much of a difference though. Every few years
there's a nasty and tragic plane crash / accident. Lots of people die.
People still fly every day. In America, thousands of lives are lost each
year in automobile accidents. People still fly. There are many other
examples with different technologies.

Despite that, they became commonplace. Few people even give them a second
thought. It's that mentality that I was trying to illustrate in the case of
the electrical web that we rely on.

>In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
>would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.
>Compare that to an entire city of millions, where everyone dies in
>a matter of minutes if the grav support fails. It would take days
>(or even months) for our society to suffer those kinds of casualties
>from power loss, giving us some time to try and fix things.

>
>Granted, our current high-tech societies use technology to keep
>us alive in the long term. You can't support thousands of people
>per square mile with hunter-gatherer technology.


Once something becomes accepted and commonplace and *trusted* people don't
even think about it anymore, which is what I was trying to point out.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:18:24 EDT
From: GhanII@aol.com
Subject: Base Codes (Re: Dark Nebula Data?) 

   Hello,    
     Those base codes are:
- --
F: non-Imperial Military and Naval bases

J: Naval base (non-Imperial)

M: Military base (non-Imperial)

R: Clan base (Aslan)

T: Tlaukhu base (Aslan)

U: Tlaukhu and Clan bases (Aslan)
- --
   Later, 
     Doug Snyder
   "I disavow any dealings with Aslan assassins" 

   Ustral Quadrant (Never Updated!)
   http://members.aol.com/ghanii/UstralQ/UQmain.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:49:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Base Codes (Re: Dark Nebula Data?) 

> 
>    Hello,    
>      Those base codes are:
> --
> F: non-Imperial Military and Naval bases
> 
> J: Naval base (non-Imperial)
> 
> M: Military base (non-Imperial)
> 
> R: Clan base (Aslan)
> 
> T: Tlaukhu base (Aslan)
> 
> U: Tlaukhu and Clan bases (Aslan)

Got it.  Thanxx.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:48:56 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Yet another one, picture that is

Hey Jesse, you never told us this stuff was this addictive! My wife
wants to talk to you!

Anyway here's another picture. This one is of the Keith Bros. era
airraft, in MHO still the neatest design I've run across! Any way, you
see there are no people in the seats yet! I'm not good enough to try
those models yet. As soon as I can get to a buddy's house I intend to
use his Poser 3 to make some up. They can be found at...

http://members.home.net/travelleri/index.html

then follow the Artwork link.

Once more, let me know what you all think.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
and 
Member-in-training of the TML 3D Club

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:35:24 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey

AveNelso@aol.com spake thusly:

>I'm starting to work on an adventure for my next T4 game.  So far all that I 
>had to hang the thing on was a title that popped into my head "Monkey, 
>Monkey, Who's Got the Monkey"  But this Ancients/Droyne thread got me 
>thinking and since I'm playing in Mil 0, before the Solomani hypothesis, I 
>think the adventure will now revolve around various cultisits, biologists 
and 
>political groups trying to get their hands on a real Terran chimpanzee for 
>biological comparison.

 Been watching too much Chimp Channel, have we?

 To mix up your players even more, have the Chimp in question be one of
the Solomani uplifted variety. He might be smarter than some of the cultists,
and will certainly be smarter than at least one of the politicians. Maybe he
retired to the zoo they find him in...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:11:48 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : tech question

Walt Smith wrote :-
> In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
> would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.

(Rob chants the anaesthetist's mantra : "No, no, no, no, no...")
Firstly, it would take a minimum of a few minutes for people on
ventilators or circulatory assist devices to die - much longer if the
staff were doing their job. Immediate death is rare in hospital.
Most critical facilities, be they hospitals or whatever have backup
power generation on site.
	A 'complete failure of all power generation equipment' scenario is
*very* unlikely i.e. Virus/Y2K Armageddon (gahh) or 'rules of physics
change so as to prevent electrical power generation' (magic (or alien
super-science, a la Patrick Tilley's 'Fade-Out'), which is a moot point
anyway considering our nervous systems would fail too, since they're
running on microvolt potential differences....). 
	In the case of an Intensive Care unit or an operating theatre, the
staff would hand ventilate patients (been there, done that) ; and most
circulatory assist devices have backup battery power.
	Those people that are likely to die _promptly_ at TL 8 are motorists
that collide when traffic lights fail or pilots and passengers of
aircraft that get caught when the ILS, etc. go off during a critical
phase of landing.

With regard to 'force fields' :-
Anthony Jackson is right - to contain an atmosphere's pressure worth of
gas on the lunar surface would require gravitational lensing in the
millions of g's (and a generous gas supply to replenish what gets lost
at the field's edge). This is not possible at Imperial TLs with
equipment with the capabilities given in the rules. However, see below.

The underwater dome is even more problematic. In this instance an
attempt is being made to keep multiple atmosphere's worth of water *out*
(or maintain a bubble of gas at one atmosphere in face of these extreme
external conditions).
	Lowering the gravity in a small volume to cause the air bubble to 'boil
up' to an appropriate pressure could work (assuming multi-million g
contragrav capability) ; but bubble pressure would then be equal to
ambient (multiple ATA) - not compatible with human survival.

Using gravitics to increase the structural strength of a dome built of
*something* I could swallow (grav plates are distributed across the
surface of the dome, computer controlled as load conditions change with
the circulation of the air mass within).
	The dome itself doesn't have to be air or water tight, just as long as
leakages are well managed. So the Clavius research park could be open to
space by varying amounts depending on the contragrav applied.
Turn down the power, let the gaps between the segments of the dome open
up, and bleed off some gas!

<appeal>
Please support the crusade to limit the proliferation of 'handwavium
fields' in Trav, which is NOT ST/SW !
</appeal>

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:28:11 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey 

> AveNelso@aol.com spake thusly:
> 
> >I'm starting to work on an adventure for my next T4 game.  So far all that I 
> >had to hang the thing on was a title that popped into my head "Monkey, 
> >Monkey, Who's Got the Monkey"  But this Ancients/Droyne thread got me 
> >thinking and since I'm playing in Mil 0, before the Solomani hypothesis, I 
> >think the adventure will now revolve around various cultisits, biologists 
> and 
> >political groups trying to get their hands on a real Terran chimpanzee for 
> >biological comparison.
> 
>  Been watching too much Chimp Channel, have we?
> 
>  To mix up your players even more, have the Chimp in question be one of
> the Solomani uplifted variety. He might be smarter than some of the cultists,
> and will certainly be smarter than at least one of the politicians. Maybe he
> retired to the zoo they find him in...

Maybe you can even get the chimp to teach the religious types theology.  
<ducking, grinning>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:26:40 +1200
From: "Dragon" <dragon@etherealdragon.co.nz>
Subject: Address adn Phone

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BECD54.DE7AF6A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For all those people who want a new address and phone number for me.

52B Great South Road
Manurewa
Auckland

025 2327406
09 2669456

Simon Lamb

 dragon@etherealdragon.co.nz
 etherealdragon@xtra.co.nz
=20
Saio =3D)

- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BECD54.DE7AF6A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For all those people who want a new =
address and=20
phone number for me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>52B Great South Road</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Manurewa</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Auckland</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>025 2327406</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>09 2669456</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Simon Lamb</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:dragon@etherealdragon.co.nz">dragon@etherealdragon.co.nz</=
A><BR>&nbsp;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:etherealdragon@xtra.co.nz">etherealdragon@xtra.co.nz</A><B=
R>&nbsp;<BR>Saio=20
=3D)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BECD54.DE7AF6A0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:11:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Except I've seen a number of references to Droyne Jump drives being very
>highly sought after.

I'm not familiar with these.  Where there appear?

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:23:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sectors 

> How about a list from people who have done things in the various sectors of
> the Traveller Universe. For example I am currently working on the Banners
> sector for a pocket empires game in TNE which of course means I am having to
> generate all the pre-collapse data for the sector.

I'm doing detail work in Reavers' Deep.  Eventually, I hope to have planetary 
schematics of every system in the sector done, as well as full mainworld 
writeups and maybe even maps of the surface.

My site is at http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller

Keven


- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:34:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients 

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> >Except I've seen a number of references to Droyne Jump drives being very
> >highly sought after.
> 
> I'm not familiar with these.  Where there appear?

They're mentioned a bit in 'Twilight's Peak' I think.  Droyne jump drives are 
hand-built custom jobs, but highly tuned.  They look a bit strange, too.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:46:27 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: tech question

> >I know I'd be unhappy about the concept of relying wholly on an
> electrically
> >generated field for life - drop it for seconds and it'd be all over!
Even
> >in a cruiser in a vacuum you wouldn't die (except in extreme
circumstances)
> >from short term power outages.

> >Definately TL*lots* though, imho.
*Ref: keeping atmosphere in a landing bay otherwise in a vacuum.

> Most of us already rely on an electrically powered web (and I don't mean
the
> WWW) for life. If all of the electrical power in the world went off
> tomorrow, and stayed off, how many people would die? Hundreds of millions?
A
> billion? Maybe more?

And stayed off.  That is the point - power outages are seldom permanent,
almost never total. (Just don't think about Auckland's CBD a while back -
that was mismanagement - but not total).   Society would have to adapt
pretty darned quick I'd guess, but the chances of a total permanent
worldwide blackout are extremely close to 0.

Sure, a few casualties would occur rapidly from electrically held equipment,
traffic lights, hospitals, etc... but all in all we don't rely on, (as
opposed to 'use extensively') electricity.  I'd be understating it to call
it a mere nuisance, but our electrical use is tinged with safety already -
critical systems have failsafes.  A total power loss in an aircraft, for
instance, is offset by alternate crititical systems - the APU fails, big
deal.  In a car, unless you're in the middle of a manoeuvre, the worst
that'll happen is you'll lose your push and coast to a stop.  Keep the
clutch out and you'll even retain power steering up until the last few
mph's.  Centrifucal brakes in elevators.  Computers would go off though, as
would the TML :(

> Few people give a second thought to how precariously our own society is
> balanced. Traveller isn't our own society of course. If you've got really,
> really cheap fusion power, then power consumption and output would very
> nearly become a non-issue.

True.  Multiple-sourced power wouldn't be a problem either, other than at
the single point of contact like at a single field generator.  But
redundancy would be still be the norm in situations of life or death. Of
course, I've countered my own argument here...  Lots and lots of small(ish)
field generators.

> Sure, you might have people with phobias, just like there are still people
> who are afraid of flying, but ultimately most people will never even
notice
> unless something happens. Of course, at that point it's too late.

Statistics and public relations jobs are the key here.  It *is* safer in a
plane than it is in a car, isn't it?


Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:37:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question

The Imperial Palace was one of several palaces and other structures floating
over the planets sufrace. Whether they survived the "virus" is another
matter.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:37:21 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question 

Actually mush may be closed since flourine has so many interesting effects.
I have heard of someone here who died from spillin 100ml of hydro-fluric
acid on his leg, died of massive internal organ failure.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 05:33:45 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Smith <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: tech question


>And stayed off.  That is the point - power outages are seldom permanent,
>almost never total. (Just don't think about Auckland's CBD a while back -
>that was mismanagement - but not total).   Society would have to adapt
>pretty darned quick I'd guess, but the chances of a total permanent
>worldwide blackout are extremely close to 0.


The point wasn't how probable it was, but that people already rely on an
infrastructure powered by electricity and most people don't even give it a
second thought. My post was about the mindset of people rather than the
possibility of such a thing happening on Terra.

>Sure, a few casualties would occur rapidly from electrically held
equipment,
>traffic lights, hospitals, etc... but all in all we don't rely on, (as
>opposed to 'use extensively') electricity.  I'd be understating it to call
>it a mere nuisance, but our electrical use is tinged with safety already -
>critical systems have failsafes.

Actually, at least here in America, it is a reliance on electricity, not
simply extensive use. With the loss of electricity the telephone system goes
out. With no telephone system food distribution becomes problematic at best,
placing emergency resources becomes difficult, if not simply impossible.

Business would grind to a halt. Economies would collapse, etc...

All that's secondary anyway, since the point referred to the tendency of
people to not perceive mundane hazards as hazards unless their attention is
called to them. In skyscrapers across the world, millions of people go to
work in skyscrapers, even though a serious fire could kill them all. While
it's not a high probability, they never even think about the danger (unless,
of course, they just saw "Towering Inferno"). All it takes is a serious fire
and a faulty sprinkler system. It did happen here in Philadelphia just a few
years ago, fortunately it happened on an off day. The fatalities were either
low or non-existant, the building was completely gutted though.

Los Angeles is another case in point. Millions of people live there knowing
full well that the "big one" might come along and they might day. Business
goes on as usual. On the east coast, people continue to build homes and live
in Hurricane Alley. In the midwest, the threat of tornadoes is always
present.

>True.  Multiple-sourced power wouldn't be a problem either, other than at
>the single point of contact like at a single field generator.  But
>redundancy would be still be the norm in situations of life or death. Of
>course, I've countered my own argument here...  Lots and lots of small(ish)
>field generators.


If it's physically workable than it will be done.

>Statistics and public relations jobs are the key here.  It *is* safer in a
>plane than it is in a car, isn't it?


I believe it is.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:04:48 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

Date sent:      	Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:11:38 -0700
From:           	"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> Bruce Johnson wrote:

>>Except I've seen a number of references to Droyne Jump drives being very
>>highly sought after.

>I'm not familiar with these.  Where there appear?

In AM5 - Droyne. However it doesn't say that they are highly sort after, just
that "Their hand made jump drives are the best in known space" (or some
such wording, I don't have AM5 with me right now). Again in MT referee's
manual, in the 'First Starfarers' sidebar (p9) "...and their [the Droyne]
hand-built jump drives are the best that can be found anywhere."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:40:17 +0200
From: "Jens Maskus" <1141-504@onlinehome.de>
Subject: Re: DSR stuff and Fire Control

other problems are:

What exactly are beam pointers and multi fire directors and for what exactly are they good for? Is it like my notebook + 
laser pointer pen on a mini turret?

If a MFD is only a chair with computer I don't understand why the ships main computer can't handle the task.

If beam pointers are only small lasers, why are they so big for 500.000km?

Why does beam pointers have only so small ranges with a maximum of 500.000km?

Jens

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:25:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:59 AM
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I


>What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
>still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
>I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a
>gaming cupboard (for those lazy days in jump) or would all gaming
recreation
>be Myst like games via the ship's computer and a VR suite?


    It depends on the society in question: how much free time do the people
have, how easy is it for them to get together, how gregarious are they, etc.

    Personally, I don't think board games will be a major factor in the
future of Terra. That doesn't mean that they won't exist in the Third
Imperium. The board game market has already begun to crumble in the United
States, which is my only point of "gaming reference."

    The vast majority of board games are about face to face interaction. On
Earth the golden age of the board game focused on family entertainment with
a strong emphasis on themes that were also attractive to children.

    In the U.S. for example, the amount of time that parents spend working
has gone up, leaving them with less time to spend with their children than
30 or 40 years ago... the golden age of board games.  As there was less time
for family entertainment, more and more boardgames solely aimed at children
started to pop up. By the early 80s the old standards, stuff like Life,
Stratego, etc. waned in popularity while games based on popular children's
toys were the norm.

    As the 80s wore on, adult party games became more and more popular.
Witness the rise of games like Trivial Pursuit and Pictionary. That was a
flash in the pan though.

    War board games took the board game off in a different tangent, but the
sheer complexity of the games limited their appeal, and more importantly
their market. The set up and playing times were mind-boggling.

    Regardless, the vast majority of board games are about face to face
social interaction. The one thing that might well keep board games alive in
the Imperium is the fact that there is a structure very similar to that of
the nuclear family: a small ship's crew. In this environment, board games
might well be popular.

    One of the interesting things about board games is that, to some extent,
they put an entire family on equal footing. Monopoly or Life are not really
strategy games, although strategy can be applied to them. In this sense,
ship's crews might be apt to keep a number of board games on their ship to
"blow off steam" when the stress of being kept in close quarters for such a
long time leads to tension.

    This doesn't work with the majority of war board games though. It
doesn't tend to work with most video games either. The game has to have the
right "mix" of skill / strategy and luck. Most video games lean towards
skill / strategy, as do most war board games.

    I've seen some other responses that seem to say that games will still
exist. There is no doubt that games will still exist. I fear that board
games (with a few exceptions) will become memories.

    They're fast on their way in the United States. Of course, it depends on
how technology is spread throughout your game world. Self-contained pocket
videogame systems can be exported to worlds with low-technology. They can be
made cheaply as well. They can even be made to take up considerably less
cargo volume on a jump capable trader than your average board game. Advances
in computer technology will make better and cheaper handheld game systems
that work for a long time on very little power.

    Such games can be made to link in a variety of different ways, even
allowing face to face interaction between players.

    Computer games that look or play like what we know as board games are
another thing entirely. They'll be around forever.

    Certain board games survive through a sort of "traditional inertia."
Chess is one example. Chess has attained a sort of legitimacy that other
games never have. It's the only board game that I can think of that people
can win college scholarships for. It has a role in western society that is
utterly unique and, to some extent, self-sustaining. It also helps that
extremely good chess players tend to be extremely good in mathematical and
scientific pursuits as well.

    It's also helpful to examine how different types of games fulfill
different social needs. However, at this point the discussion would move
away from board games and move into video games, card games, and games like
dominoes and mah jong.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #854
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 855



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : tech question
Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: GURPS lite
Re: GURPS lite
re: tech question
Re: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)
Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question)
re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Vaccuum Flowers (longish)
RE: Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question)
RE: tech question
RE: Yet another one, picture that is
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: Versions
re: tech question
Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey
Re: tech question
Re:  Yet another one, picture that is
Re: Droyne & The Ancients

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:07:50 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : tech question

Mike Smith wrote :-
> Statistics and public relations jobs are the key here.  It *is* safer in a
> plane than it is in a car, isn't it?

Ballpark figures : 1:10000 risk of being involved in a fatal motor
vehicle accident if you use your car every day (more if between 16-25 or
65+).
Comparable stats for a plane about 1:1000000.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:17:44 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)

Keven Pittsinger wrote :-
> If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for instance,
> and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be toast.
> 

If we were living someplace with more than a trace of fluorine in the
atmosphere we'd be in the Star Trek universe. That stuff is so reactive
that you'd need enormous geological or electrical disturbances to
'de-salt' it or otherwise unlock it from rocks. Whatever's on this world
is pretty valuable that people would live there....

Antony Farrell wrote :-
> Actually mush may be closed since flourine has so many interesting effects.
> I have heard of someone here who died from spillin 100ml of hydro-fluric
> acid on his leg, died of massive internal organ failure.

Hydrofluoric acid toxicity is dependent more on HF's affinity for
calcium and other important ions, plus the effects of the leftover
fluoride, than the acid load itself.
(Your body eliminates the equivalent of 2 litres of concentrated
hydrochloric acid in the form of carbon dioxide a day).

HF binds calcium, leading to problems with neuromuscular function ;
fluoride anion (F-) is a direct poison to the kidneys and liver in
concentrations in excess of 55 micromoles per litre (~1.1 milligrams/L).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:41:36 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Well, I'll throw myself into the fray also. I've been using
Pov-Ray for quite some time now, but haven't produced a lot
of memorable work. I'm still cranking away however and I'm in 
heavy learning using Moray. I'm mostly looking to make complete
scenes but are struggeling with a case of details. I have a
tendency to wanting a lot of details on every model and that takes
time. I'm currently learning how to leave my models in a semidetailed
state and use bumpmaps and other imagemaps to finish them.

I do have a couple of projects on hand, a small personal gravcar, a
freighter, a SDB, a liferaft and so on, and hopefully I'll be able to 
produce something over the summer. I'm also in the process of finishing
my Masters in astrophysics on the subject of orbital determination so
time is scarce :-(

Tommy Grav
	Cand.mag. at Institute of Theoretical Astrophysics
	University in Oslo
	Norway

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:54:15 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: GURPS lite

At 10:23 11.07.99 +0100, you wrote:
>If you're not sure about GT, or GURPS generally, and have resisted
>downloading GURPS-lite as it was 1.8Mb, I notice that SJG have reduced it
>to <450kb unzipped. It may be worth downloading a copy now...
How did they do that without removing content?
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:11:22 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: GURPS lite

Date sent:      	Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:54:15 +0200
From:           	Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>

> At 10:23 11.07.99 +0100, you wrote:
> >If you're not sure about GT, or GURPS generally, and have resisted
> >downloading GURPS-lite as it was 1.8Mb, I notice that SJG have reduced it
> >to <450kb unzipped. It may be worth downloading a copy now...

> How did they do that without removing content?

My guess would be they deselected the "include all fonts" option.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:28:57 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tech question

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I think the difference is how fast people died off.


I'm not sure that there is much of a difference though. Every few years
there's a nasty and tragic plane crash / accident. Lots of people die.
People still fly every day. In America, thousands of lives are lost each
year in automobile accidents. People still fly. There are many other
examples with different technologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A series of well-publicized disasters destroyed the rigid airship industry
back in the 1930's. The aircraft industry never had a situation where
this happened to it. 

Our society has *no* technologies that will kill a significant percentage
of the population if they fail - at least, not kill quickly. That is, IMO, a very
different situation than a vacuum world city with a dome overhead,
where *everyone* dies within minutes of a dome breach.

That doesn't mean that people won't develop a casual attitude towards
its reliability, but it does mean that such a casual attitude will take
more psychological effort. 

Adventure seed or color bit: on such a vacuum world, there is an
outbreak of agoraphobia - people becoming extremely, sometimes 
violently afraid of leaving buildings and walking out under the dome.
Are they recent immigrants from a more hospitable world? Is a psionic
terrorist digging out the fears that all citizens of this world carefully
bury? What happens when some of these sufferers crack completely,
and decide to destroy the source of their fear?

Chicken Little was right....

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:43:26 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)

> 
> Antony Farrell wrote :-
> > Actually mush may be closed since flourine has so many interesting effects.
> > I have heard of someone here who died from spillin 100ml of hydro-fluric
> > acid on his leg, died of massive internal organ failure.
> 

I'm not sure this is possible.  I have worked closely with HF acid and
its most deadly feature is that when it gets on you, it DOESN'T burn. 
It just quietly soaks in like water.  Some hours later, when it begins
de-calsifying your body, it begins to hurt.  Depending on the
concentration of the HF exposure, death may occur.  Your best defense is
a cold shower right after the exposure and some calcium glutamate shots
at the hospital.

I myself was exposed to a minute portion of it once, but thank God, it
was mixed with Acetic and Nitric, so it BURNED right away, alerting me
in time to get good treatment and suffer no ill effects.

As to inhalation of HF vapor, even the most briefest exposure can cause
some scarring of the minor pathways in the lungs.  It is too nasty to be
stored in the traditional glass bottles, so you'll find it stored in
special teflon-plastic containers.

When mixed with Nitric acid in high quantities, it becomes extremely
active and corrosive.  It also builds up a lot of thermal reaction. 
When mixed with Chromium Trioxide, Potassium Dichromate or a Chromium
Trioxide-Cupric Nitrate mixture, it becomes very unstable.  Introduce a
foreign substance into your HF+Chromium Trioxide/Cupric Nitrate
solution, and you will get a reaction quite similiar to an erupting
volcano.  The mixture will generate intense heat and will boil into an
eruption that lasts about 3-5 minutes before the reaction dies down.

On the bright side, I can't think of ANYTHING that will clean than HF
all by itself.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:39:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question)

<QUOTE>
> > Remember last year's ice storm in Quebec? That killed power for a long
time > for a lot of people. Some deaths, but not that many. Very few
critical > system have no backups. 

Quebec is still in an environment that is favorable to humans, for the
most part.  If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for
instance, and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be
toast. 
</QUOTE>

Ahem, have you BEEN to Montreal recently?  A flourine atmosphere is
nothing compared to the humidity we get here! :-)  (though we've been
having GREAT weather recently, so I shouldn't complain) 

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:44:46 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tech question

Robert O'Connor wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
> would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.

(Rob chants the anaesthetist's mantra : "No, no, no, no, no...")
Firstly, it would take a minimum of a few minutes for people on
ventilators or circulatory assist devices to die - much longer if the
staff were doing their job. Immediate death is rare in hospital.
Most critical facilities, be they hospitals or whatever have backup
power generation on site.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The original poster was putting forth a scenario where power is gone,
and not coming back. There is only so long a hospital's backup power
supply can operate, and then only so long someone can hand-ventilate
a patient. 

"Immediate" was too strong a word, but I was using it in comparison to
how long it would take for most victims of this catastrophe (Chris Seaman's
millions or billions) to die - mostly from the failure of sections of the
food generation and distribution network.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:09:35 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

> Clear bay 327. We are opening the magnetic field.
> 
> Nope, nothing like that in Traveller. No "force fields" as such...

There is a "canon" reference in an old copy of "The Dragon" of all places
talking about Luna... One of the surface cities on Luna has an "open" dome in
which the air is held in via focused "grav beams" or somesuch. Think
repulsor/tractor beams that are pulling on the air instead of something like a
missle.

Whether it would work somewhere where you had to have access to the entire
volume, I dunno. I think there was mention of slow leakage in the dome as
well, requiring the air to constantly be "topped up".

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:33:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Vaccuum Flowers (longish)

> Charles Collin wrote :-
> > 1. Has anyone given any serious thought to the ecology/biology of
>  > vaccuum flowers?  How realistic is this idea?
> 
> To recap, it would appear that life requires energy, building blocks and
> a solvent for reactions to happen in.
> 	The problem is that liquids turn into gas ('boil') when the vapour
> pressure of the liquid is equal to ambient pressure. 
[snip]
> 	Let's try another tack.
> 	The 'vaccuum flower' exploits the temperature differential between the
> surface and some distance 'underground' (geothermal activity or tidal
> heating from a nearby gas giant) to generate the energy it needs to
> perform metabolic tasks. The 'flower' is a form of ruggedised 'root'
> system!

Yup, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of.  Another possibility is
to lay a length of plant across the ground and use temperature
differentials across shadow/sun sections to generate electrical energy (I
think this could be done even if the temp differentials are quite low, any
gearheads wanna clear this up for me?). 

> 	A variety of low-temperature solvents may fit the bill (but may
> unfortunately not be much use for creating superconductors) - e.g.
> ammonia, sulphur dioxide, phosphorus trifluoride - the last remains
> liquid down to -160 degrees C.

Hmm, I don't think the fact that the solvents are not elements of
superconductors is a problem.  The flowers may have started bringing in
the building blocks simply because they were suspended in whatever the
solvents are. 

> > 2. What are the problems involved in a plant producing superconductive
> > organics? 
> AFAIK, all high temperature superconductors so far are ceramics, complex
> rare earth and transition metal oxides - and no-one has yet been able to
> postulate a satisfactory theory of how they work.

That fits my understanding.  A few websites I saw had superconductors
molecules on them composed of a few basic organics and some slightly rarer
stuff like Selenium, Gallium or Ytrrium tacked on.  These are not terribly
rare (Selenium can be found in brazil nuts), so I think it's plausible
that the building blocks would be there.

> 	These (or similar) compounds may have been deposited in the root system
> of our plant as structural material (analogous to the calcium salts
> deposited in bone, or the silica skeletons of diatoms) in combination
> with some 'biological' material (bone = calcium salts + collagen).
> 	The superconductivity effect may have been a serendipitous one. Small
> 'stripes' of superconductor may have been laid down by the cells of the
> plant to increase rootlet structural strength - then voila! 
> 	Abundant energy....

Yup, we're definately on the same page, here.  This of course has the nice
side-effect that the plant structures act as superconducting "wires".  I
was picturing them as ground-hugging tri-leaved flowers connected by
rhizomes (for using the heat differential across wide ranges) and with
deep-diving roots for geo-thermal energy.  The flowers petals are there to
regulate heat levels (if they're in the sun they gather warmth by
spreading and close to avoid excess heat, if in shadow they spread to
radiate heat and close to retain it). 

> In DGP material and MT, room temperature superconduction was an Early or
> Average Stellar TL development ('metaconductors'). They are everywhere
> at typical Imperial tech levels.

Thanks for the info.

> Our vaccuum flower would definitely be a biological curiousity, and
> possibly useful for supplying cheap power for outer zone bases or
> beacons, etc. (although fusion power is so very cheap).

I was thinking that they'd be useful for mid-tech worlds in the Outrim
Void or other areas where it might be hard to find large-scale
manufacturers of super-conductors.  The plant could provide such materials
with less infrastructure development, basically.  These could be used in
making computers or whatever they are used for in the 3I.

An interesting thing to consider is how these plants might have evolved. 
It seems unlikely for life to evolve on vaccuum worlds (otherwise the
universe would be teeming with these things), so I picture them developing
on worlds that slowly lose their atmosphere and/or which slowly become
tidally locked.  Vaccuum flowers (and their accompanying ecology) would be
the end-stage of a previous "more normal" biosphere. 

Thanks for the very helpful feedback,
Charles C.

"Omnia intelligi possunt"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:58:24 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question)

You should try our summers in Perth, 45 degrees celcius is becoming more
typical. This is only 5 degrees below the upper limit of human habibility.
This at TL8. Also Perth is close to the Indian Ocean so our temperatures are
normally moderated.

As an aside GDW in the Solomani and Aslan MT supplement apparently melted
the polar ice caps of Earth but kept the average temperature at 15 degrees.
Anyone like to comment on what temperature Earth reached to melt the ice
caps and still have a viable biosphere.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:58:22 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question

For an example of this have a look at Isaac Asimov's earlier robot novels,
where humans live in the totally enclosed cities.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:28:44 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Yet another one, picture that is

Oh, did I forget to mention that?  >:D  Yes, it can be very addicting and a
whole lot of fun!  It's also challenging, rewarding, mind expanding etc etc
ad infinitum :)  Let's see...that makes about three wives so far that would
like to have a little chat with me re:  their husbands suddenly locking
themselves in their hobby rooms, hunched over newly acquired 3D software.
My plan is working perfectly ;)

Keep up the good work!

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> Peters
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:49 PM
> To: TML
> Subject: Yet another one, picture that is
>
>
> Hey Jesse, you never told us this stuff was this addictive! My wife
> wants to talk to you!
>
> Anyway here's another picture. This one is of the Keith Bros. era
> airraft, in MHO still the neatest design I've run across! Any way, you
> see there are no people in the seats yet! I'm not good enough to try
> those models yet. As soon as I can get to a buddy's house I intend to
> use his Poser 3 to make some up. They can be found at...
>
http://members.home.net/travelleri/index.html

then follow the Artwork link.

Once more, let me know what you all think.

- --
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com
and
Member-in-training of the TML 3D Club

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:35:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Hey, welcome to the club!  One thing that hasn't been mentioned (in detail)
is that this stuff, while fun and addicting, is also very time consuming!
Expect to neglect your sig/other, your pet, your family, your friends.....
:)

Best,
Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tommy Grav
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:42 AM
> To: traveller
> Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
>
>
>
> Well, I'll throw myself into the fray also. I've been using
> Pov-Ray for quite some time now, but haven't produced a lot
> of memorable work. I'm still cranking away however and I'm in
> heavy learning using Moray. I'm mostly looking to make complete
> scenes but are struggeling with a case of details. I have a
> tendency to wanting a lot of details on every model and that takes
> time. I'm currently learning how to leave my models in a semidetailed
> state and use bumpmaps and other imagemaps to finish them.
>
> I do have a couple of projects on hand, a small personal gravcar, a
> freighter, a SDB, a liferaft and so on, and hopefully I'll be able to
> produce something over the summer. I'm also in the process of finishing
> my Masters in astrophysics on the subject of orbital determination so
> time is scarce :-(
>
> Tommy Grav
> 	Cand.mag. at Institute of Theoretical Astrophysics
> 	University in Oslo
> 	Norway
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:05:13 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tech question

Robert Prior wrote:

>>Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
>>million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.

>Except that TL15 vacc suits are pretty unobtrusive. Scouts wear their's all
>the time, with the membrane helmet rolled up in the collar, just in case
>pressure drops. (Ref: WBH).

I don't have the WBH, but your point is taken - in MT, there is no DEX
penalty for wearing a TL-14 Vacc suit. Even so, working in an atmosphere
and with standard gravity is going to be easier than working `outside.'

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:02:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Matt Clonfero wrote:

> Jetrock  wrote:
> 
> >Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
> >enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
> >open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
> >station.
> 
> Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
> million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.
> 
Most ship servicing can be done from inside the ship--remember, jump craft
are designed to operate in conditions where it's physically impossible to
be outside the craft for a week. And you can service the ship in a vacc
suit: TL8 vacc suits are kinda clumsy, but by the time you hit TL13 or so
they're no more uncomfortable than coveralls with a helmet. And if you
want to unload cargo, an umbilical access tube is much simpler and cheaper
than pressurizing a bay for a 5000-ton craft. If you *must* service the
hull in shirtsleeves, then a larger version of the "portable airlock", a
pressurized blister that attaches to the hull, mentioned earlier in this
thread makes no sense.

But your "magnetic field" that passes ships but not air doesn't exist, at
least not within Traveller tech levels. So you're stuck with pressurizing
and depressurizing that 10,000 dt landing bay every time you want to park
something in it--or just install some umbilical tubes and a big airlock!

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:46:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 
> I'm currently learning how to leave my models in a semidetailed
> state and use bumpmaps and other imagemaps to finish them.

Yes...as the manual for Strata StudioPro says: "A bump map is worth a
million polygons."

3D stuff is addicting though...you'll find yourself working on stuff
when you should really be doing real work (he says as he types into a
mail window over a Photoshop window with a top rendering of a ship he'd
texturing;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:06:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>  So sorry, isn't it _obvious_ that "more advanced" applies to the social
>system
>itself? Quite frankly, whatever SolSec is working towards doesn't impress
>us, and
>we'd be concerned if we thought that you could keep it all together long
>enough
>accomplish any of your mad dreams. The possibility of a great empire run by
>madmen
>is distressing, however unlikely.

Sadly, the fact of a great Empire (albeit Vilani so it probably rates as
'quite good' not 'great') being ruled by madmen is a fact with the
deplorable and oppressive regime of the Third Imperium.

We at Solsec, sorry, the Solomani Party have long been impressed by the way
you have integrated mind control to the point that your people expect it
and love it!

 >  I suggest you consider AM4 - you're dealing with a master race that not
only
>has great taste in headgear but also assigned itself comfy footwear; _they_ do
>not miss the details that count, eh?
>  Besides, we have drones for the messy work...

That's what we use Vegans for.


>>But, in the spirit of the enemy of my enemy being my friend - the
>>Confederation has suffered greatly from the expansionism of the Imperium.
>>Perhaps you could start a 6th Frontier War at the same time as we start the
>>2nd Great Patriotic War for the Liberation of Terra and the Solomani Race
>>from Vilani Enslavement?
>
>  We might pal up with the Vargr (at least they're treacherous in a somewhat
>reliable fashion), but teaming up with the fools that arranged the Solomani
>Rim War (when doing well, throwing it all away is _dumb_) is too much.
>
>  <ahem> I wouldn't trust you people to sit the right way on a lavatory...

Methinks that you are trying to provoke us to coming at you through the
Imperium to save money on another Frontier war. Hmm. It won't work.

<aside> Add them to the list, but put them after the Vilani and the
doggies. We'll deal with them once we collect the Star Trigger our client
state at Darrian is building... </aside>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:58:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: tech question

Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> writes:

>Which is why, when designing vehicles for T4 (102 Vehicles, another FREE
>supplement from BITS), I always added a backup battery to grav vehicles.

Similar methodologies were used for the 101st Spaceborne vehicles produced
to date, using Rob Prior's excellent Infini-V CSC rules Vehicle Generator
for the Mac, also available from BITS. :-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:55:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey

> AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > I'm starting to work on an adventure for my next T4 game.  So far all
> that I
> > had to hang the thing on was a title that popped into my head "Monkey,
> > Monkey, Who's Got the Monkey"  But this Ancients/Droyne thread got me

How about Leave My Monkey Alone?  It's Warren Zevon's song about the Mau
Mau uprising, but it could serve as inspiration in a number of Traveller
contexts.  ("In our old colonial home / we drank our bitters while the
empire fell / Leave my monkey alone / Leave my monkey alone.")

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:59:37 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

> In America, thousands of lives are lost each
> year in automobile accidents. People still fly. 

I'm kind of the anti-car advocate among my friends (but I think I'm
about to acquire my father's 1984 Oldsmobile 88; if I recall correctly,
it's slightly smaller than a 30-ton ship's boat), so I appreciate this
comment very much (although I do realize that it's a typographical
error).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:07:04 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Yet another one, picture that is

> From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
 
> Anyway here's another picture. This one is of the Keith Bros. era
> airraft, in MHO still the neatest design I've run across! Any way, you
 
> Once more, let me know what you all think.

It looks great!  I happen to have a pair of 3D glasses (red lens/blue
lens), and they seem to enhance the effect.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:14:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> >Except I've seen a number of references to Droyne Jump drives being very
> >highly sought after.
> 
> I'm not familiar with these.  Where there appear?

Check the Supplement 8?: Library Data entry for Droyne, as well as
Contact! Droyne in JTAS.  I have seen the references, too, but don't
remember exactly where they were.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #855
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 13 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 856



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Droyne & The Ancients
Re: tech question
Re:  SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: Versions
Re : tech question
Re: Re : tech question
Quantum Computers A Reality
RE: Surviving Life-support Failure
Re: tech question
Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: Games in 3I
Re: tech question
Marines, Zhodani, and Battledress
re: tech question
Re: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question) 
Re: Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question) 
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: tech question
Re: tech question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:17:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Droyne & The Ancients

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
 
> They're mentioned a bit in 'Twilight's Peak' I think.  Droyne jump drives are 
> hand-built custom jobs, but highly tuned.  They look a bit strange, too.

Starship Operator's Manual notes that there are normally gold coyns
under each of the six retaining bolts that attach the jump drive to the
hull.  I think that book also says that Droyne jump grids are hexagonal
(big surprise).  These are in the old guy's sidebar comments.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:19:22 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

> From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
 
> And stayed off.  That is the point - power outages are seldom permanent,
> almost never total. 

That's true as long as we don't get into a war with the Darrians.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:24:57 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

> From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:59 AM
> Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
> 
> >What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
> >still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea

Don't forget the Glass Bead Game.  I'm sure that it will be played by
some elite scholarly types somewhere in someone's Traveller universe.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:45:18 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Versions

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
>  
> Methinks that you are trying to provoke us to coming at you through the
> Imperium to save money on another Frontier war. Hmm. It won't work.
> 
> <aside> Add them to the list, but put them after the Vilani and the
> doggies. We'll deal with them once we collect the Star Trigger our client
> state at Darrian is building... </aside>
> 
>

All is in readiness Ghorge. The Solomani beleive that the Device we are
construction for them will work. This will cause them to rashly, as
always, attack their neighbors. 

That robot we constructed for the the Imperials will defect at the
proper moment.

The Psi bomb we launced to the core is almost in place, which should do
for the ragheads and the doggies.

Now we just need to get the itching power into the cat's boxes.

When it all comes together we'll be on top, just as we should have been
if it hadn't been for that stupid experiment...

What? What do you mean this is an open channel? Oh, nuts!


- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:48:27 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re : tech question

> From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
 
> Ballpark figures : 1:10000 risk of being involved in a fatal motor
> vehicle accident if you use your car every day (more if between 16-25 or
> 65+).
> Comparable stats for a plane about 1:1000000.

"Qantas.  Qantas has never had a fatal accident."  That was how we knew
that Raymond wasn't really rational.  

Ob Traveller:  How dangerous are air/rafts and grav speeders in the
urban context (compared to TL 8 wheeled vehicles)?  I assume that there
are aerial "streets" in cities with a lot of contragrav traffic (and no
intersections, because different traffic directions are at different
altitudes; there are "on ramps" and "off ramps" for changing
direction).  

What about between cities?  Are there official "freeways" for grav
traffic between urban centers, or can you fly from here to there by any
scenic route you like?  Inasmuch as grav vehicles allow for much finer
control than TL 8 aircraft, and don't require any special facilities for
take-off and landing, I doubt that the contemporary aircraft system is a
good model.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Ob Traveller:  How dangerous are air/rafts and grav speeders in the
> urban context (compared to TL 8 wheeled vehicles)?  I assume that there
> are aerial "streets" in cities with a lot of contragrav traffic (and no
> intersections, because different traffic directions are at different
> altitudes; there are "on ramps" and "off ramps" for changing
> direction).  

Typically, within a city on a world high-tech enough to have both grav
vehicles and mass traffic, grav traffic is slaved to computer control. The
vehicle's computer links up with city traffic control and the computer
does the rest.  Which gives us some interesting disaster scenarios if the
computer gives out at a bad moment, but hey, this is roleplaying--without
disasters, catastrophes, and poorly-timed malfunctions, it'd be boring!

> What about between cities?  Are there official "freeways" for grav
> traffic between urban centers, or can you fly from here to there by any
> scenic route you like?  Inasmuch as grav vehicles allow for much finer
> control than TL 8 aircraft, and don't require any special facilities for
> take-off and landing, I doubt that the contemporary aircraft system is a
> good model.
> 
This depends a lot on what planet you are on. High-population worlds,
densely populated with a lot of traffic, will probably have regular routes
established, with some form of automated air-traffic control. On a
frontier world with a population of 500, you can pretty much swing your
air/raft however you like it, since there just isn't that much else flying
around for you to hit.

Law level is also a factor: low-law worlds are less likely to object
strenuously to someone flying outside the lines, while a high-law world
might routinely take down errant pilots with AA laser batteries for flying
Where They Should Not Be.

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:23:28 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Quantum Computers A Reality

Just as an FYI for all you gearheads, UniSci has posted the
following story. Apparently, quantum computers have seen
actual use before this post.

- --- quote ---
Quantum Computer Performs Simulation For First Time

Until now, quantum computers have done simple arithmetic and
searched small databases. But one of the first applications
envisioned for them, proposed in 1982 by Richard Feynman,
was that they could simulate quantum-mechanical processes
better and more efficiently than classical computers.

Demonstrating Feynman's idea for the first time, David Cory
at MIT and other researchers have now used a quantum computer
to solve a senior-year undergraduate physics problem,
according to the American Institute of Physics Physics News
Update Number 438. 

They simulated a "truncated harmonic oscillator," the series
of energy levels -- assumed to be finite for simplicity --
experienced by a quantum particle such as an electron which
is bound to another object such as a proton. 

To simulate this system, they used an NMR quantum computer,
a device in which an external magnetic field aligns a group
of atomic nuclei in a liquid, solid, or gas, so that the tiny
magnet associated with each atom's nucleus is either along the
field (a state known as "spin-down," which can represent a 0
in binary code) or opposed to it ("spin-up," which can represent
a 1). 

In common with previous designs, the NMR computer consisted of
molecules in the liquid state; in this case, the researchers
manipulated the spins of two atomic nuclei within each molecule.
The manipulation results in the possible energy states for this
two-spin system exactly simulating the possible energy states
for the quantum particle.

Future steps could include modeling the somewhat more
sophisticated real-world system of an electron in a hydrogen
atom. Details will appear in Somaroo et al., Physical Review
Letters, 28 June 1999.
- -- end quote ---

From ENIAC to operational quantum computers in less than a
lifetime.

Three cheers for the Human Species!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:40:09 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Surviving Life-support Failure

Charles Collin writes:
>Quebec is still in an environment that is favorable to humans, for the
>most part.  If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for
>instance, and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be
>toast. 
></QUOTE>
>
>Ahem, have you BEEN to Montreal recently?  A flourine atmosphere is
>nothing compared to the humidity we get here! :-)  (though we've been
>having GREAT weather recently, so I shouldn't complain) 

And that's even before you factor in the HF-like political atmosphere!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:48:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: tech question

>> >In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
>> >would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.
>> >Compare that to an entire city of millions, where everyone dies in
>> >a matter of minutes if the grav support fails. It would take days
>> >(or even months) for our society to suffer those kinds of casualties
>> >from power loss, giving us some time to try and fix things.
>> >
>> >Granted, our current high-tech societies use technology to keep
>> >us alive in the long term. You can't support thousands of people
>> >per square mile with hunter-gatherer technology.
>>
>> Remember last year's ice storm in Quebec? That killed power for a long time
>> for a lot of people. Some deaths, but not that many. Very few critical
>> system have no backups.
>
>Quebec is still in an environment that is favorable to humans, for the
>most part.  If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for
>instance, and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be
>toast.

True. But when electricity was literally a matter of life and death, there
_were_ backups. That, at least, was the point I was trying to make. If my
very life depended on electricity, I'd have my own power system as a backup
to Richmond Hill Hydro.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:49:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Monkey, Monkey, Who's got the Monkey

>> AveNelso@aol.com spake thusly:
>>
>> >I'm starting to work on an adventure for my next T4 game.  So far all
>>that I
>> >had to hang the thing on was a title that popped into my head "Monkey,
>> >Monkey, Who's Got the Monkey"  But this Ancients/Droyne thread got me
>> >thinking and since I'm playing in Mil 0, before the Solomani hypothesis, I
>> >think the adventure will now revolve around various cultisits, biologists
>> and
>> >political groups trying to get their hands on a real Terran chimpanzee for
>> >biological comparison.
>>
>>  Been watching too much Chimp Channel, have we?
>>
>>  To mix up your players even more, have the Chimp in question be one of
>> the Solomani uplifted variety. He might be smarter than some of the
>>cultists,
>> and will certainly be smarter than at least one of the politicians. Maybe he
>> retired to the zoo they find him in...
>
>Maybe you can even get the chimp to teach the religious types theology.
><ducking, grinning>

Or try. Make him an evangelical of whatever religion won't offend your
players, with no sense of humour. He's coming along with them only to
convert them, and if he gets the idea it's hopeless he'll leave, so at
least one of them has to pretend to believe him...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:49:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

>    The vast majority of board games are about face to face interaction. On
>Earth the golden age of the board game focused on family entertainment with
>a strong emphasis on themes that were also attractive to children.
>
>    One of the interesting things about board games is that, to some extent,
>they put an entire family on equal footing. Monopoly or Life are not really
>strategy games, although strategy can be applied to them. In this sense,
>ship's crews might be apt to keep a number of board games on their ship to
>"blow off steam" when the stress of being kept in close quarters for such a
>long time leads to tension.
>
>    Such games can be made to link in a variety of different ways, even
>allowing face to face interaction between players.
>
>    Computer games that look or play like what we know as board games are
>another thing entirely. They'll be around forever.
>
>    Certain board games survive through a sort of "traditional inertia."
>Chess is one example. Chess has attained a sort of legitimacy that other
>games never have. It's the only board game that I can think of that people
>can win college scholarships for. It has a role in western society that is
>utterly unique and, to some extent, self-sustaining. It also helps that
>extremely good chess players tend to be extremely good in mathematical and
>scientific pursuits as well.
>
>    It's also helpful to examine how different types of games fulfill
>different social needs. However, at this point the discussion would move
>away from board games and move into video games, card games, and games like
>dominoes and mah jong.

Good analysis. Mind you, there's also Go, Shogi, Tsien-Chi (??? only heard
it pronounced - often called Chinese Chess), the mancala games... still
popular outside America.

Broaden the discussion from board games to recreations (toys, sports,
hobbies....) and you have 101 Recreations, a BITS supplement that Jeff
Zeitlin and I are writing. Contributions welcome, both items and essays.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:20:00 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Games in 3I

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >    It's also helpful to examine how different types of games fulfill
> >different social needs. However, at this point the discussion would move
> >away from board games and move into video games, card games, and games like
> >dominoes and mah jong.
> 
> Good analysis. Mind you, there's also Go, Shogi, Tsien-Chi (??? only heard
> it pronounced - often called Chinese Chess), the mancala games... still
> popular outside America.
> 
> Broaden the discussion from board games to recreations (toys, sports,
> hobbies....) and you have 101 Recreations, a BITS supplement that Jeff
> Zeitlin and I are writing. Contributions welcome, both items and essays.

Meanwhile, the following URL will take you to a comprehensive listing of
rules for that quintessential American recreation -- the Drinking Game:

http://www.slashpalace.org/~drink/drinking/

I suspect that some equivalents to these will still be around in the 3I
(Scout Brew, anyone?).

[Of course, _real_ sophonts don't need a game to drink.... ;-)]

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:20:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: tech question

Robert Prior wrote:
> 

> True. But when electricity was literally a matter of life and death, there
> _were_ backups. That, at least, was the point I was trying to make. If my
> very life depended on electricity, I'd have my own power system as a backup
> to Richmond Hill Hydro.

The problem with these sorts of scenarios, at least inasmuch as their
application to Traveller is that high TL power generation is, by our
standards, flabberghastingly decentralized. With cheap, small fusion
plants, you basically generate power where you need it. 

There _is_ no power grid, per se.

Each building will have it's own fusion plant, perhaps several, plus
backups.

Power distribution as we do it today is killingly inefficient, the
reason we have 25 kv lines stringing out all over the place is because
we NEED to pump that much power through 'em to be able to get a fraction
of that on the other end.

We put up with it, because as inefficient as our power grid is, it's
still many orders of magnitude cheaper than generating it in situ. 

Most power plants, like coal and nuclear plant have to be built huge to
work economically. Others, like hydroelectric are built huge because
they're restricted in where they can work, so the most power that's
possible is gotten out of them.

We're starting to head towards a Traveller mode...several power
utilities are experimenting with fuel cells. The idea is instead of
having a huge coal plant hundreds of miles away, you have a fuel cell
plant operating in your neighborhood. 

These things are no larger than the transformer substations serving the
same area now, and are considerably safer. 

(When I was a 6th grader, I knew a couple kids who snuck into one of
those, despite all the warnings, and got a graphic demonstration of what
high voltage and current does to you. One kid died several weeks later,
and the other lived, but minus an arm, part of a leg, and with horrid
burns.)

With local generation you don't need to generate such high currents, and
you lose a lot less in transmission. As a bonus, since the fuel is
natural gas or hydrogen, you can ship that with zero loss of energy,
other than the energy to transport it.

Once you get cheap little fusion plants, heck, each _ward_ in a hospital
can have it's own autonomous power source. If one goes down, you just
run long extension cords...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:30:17 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Marines, Zhodani, and Battledress

Food for thought:

"To reinforce [Baron] Caranda's troops, Admiral Alkhalikoi [in 622] left
behind a small cadre of Imperial Marines.... The Imperial Marines under his
control served three functions: they served as his personal household
guard; they trained other forces in effective combat techniques; and they
worked as special commandos in crucial operations."

The Spinward Marches Campaign, p. 38.

"Temporary Duty

"The 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment is supported through taxes and levies
imposed by the Imperial bureaucracy. The methods by which it maintains its
troop strength are more complex.

"Imperial policy allows Imperial marines to transfer to the 4518th (or
other local units) for a limited period of time. While serving with a local
unit (on /temporary duty/), the soldier is paid by the local unit and
subject to local unit discipline. A promotion of one grade (enlisted rank
only) can be retained at the end of temporary duty when the soldier returns
to an Imperial unit; additional promotions are sometimes recognized, but a
specific application must be made.

"The local unit gains because it receives a trained soldier; one who can
teach current doctrine or techniques. Such individuals help strengthen a
local unit that often depends on a small population for its recruits.

"The Imperium gains from the arrangement, too. The Imperial military
payrolls are relieved of the soldier for the temporary duty period. The
general quality of the non-Imperial forces is increased. The soldier gains
valuable experince in the type of unit he or she is ultimately called upon
to support. There is even a chance the soldier will gain combat experience;
non-Imperial units often get involved in combat."

Ibid., p. 41.


"Combat armor is the standard combat uniform for about half of all Zhodani
army personnel and for most Zhodani ship's troops."

AM4: Zhodani, p. 15.

"Battle Dress is required when the character is carrying PGMP-13 or
FGMP-14. Zhodani forces issue battle dress to individuals armed with such
weapons, but rarely to others."

Ibid., p. 16.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:32:37 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tech question

Robert Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
True. But when electricity was literally a matter of life and death, there
_were_ backups. That, at least, was the point I was trying to make. If my
very life depended on electricity, I'd have my own power system as a backup
to Richmond Hill Hydro.
>>>>>>>>>>>
When I worked computer support for New York State Electric & Gas,
I visited a lot of their field offices. Every line crew office had a list of
names and addresses prominently posted, and each name had a time
listed by it - usually hours, one or two listed in days, some entries
listed as "none".

It was a list of all the people in their service area who had life support
machinery in their homes, and how much battery backup they had.
The ones with "none" would be working something by hand-crank
until a NYSEG crew got the power back on, or an ambulance arrived.

Funny, no matter how crowded that bulletin board got, nothing was 
*ever* put on top of even a corner of that sheet of paper, in any of the
offices I worked at.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:20:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question) 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote :-
> > If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for instance,
> > and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be toast.
> > 
> 
> If we were living someplace with more than a trace of fluorine in the
> atmosphere we'd be in the Star Trek universe. That stuff is so reactive
> that you'd need enormous geological or electrical disturbances to
> 'de-salt' it or otherwise unlock it from rocks. Whatever's on this world
> is pretty valuable that people would live there....

Point I was trying to make was, if you're using some kind of nonmaterial 
gadget to make your living environment habitable and keep out the hostile 
environment, and the power failed, yer dead.  Period.

Unless of course, you believe in Lamarkian evolution...

Keven
- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:23:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question) 

> 
> <QUOTE>
> > > Remember last year's ice storm in Quebec? That killed power for a long
> time > for a lot of people. Some deaths, but not that many. Very few
> critical > system have no backups. 
> 
> Quebec is still in an environment that is favorable to humans, for the
> most part.  If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for
> instance, and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be
> toast. 
> </QUOTE>
> 
> Ahem, have you BEEN to Montreal recently?  A flourine atmosphere is
> nothing compared to the humidity we get here! :-)  (though we've been
> having GREAT weather recently, so I shouldn't complain) 

Never been there in my life.  Most of my sins have been committed either 
south of the US border or elsewhere.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:20:51 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

Robert Prior said:

>Good analysis. Mind you, there's also Go, Shogi, Tsien-Chi (??? only heard
>it pronounced - often called Chinese Chess), the mancala games... still
>popular outside America.


As I said before, America is my point of gaming reference. I've done alot of
research into 20th century American pop-culture and I've always been
fascinated by toys and games. My knowledge of Japanese toys and games
focuses on the late 1970s to the present.

>Broaden the discussion from board games to recreations (toys, sports,
>hobbies....) and you have 101 Recreations, a BITS supplement that Jeff
>Zeitlin and I are writing. Contributions welcome, both items and essays.


Sounds pretty nifty. Where would I send any contributions?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:00:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: tech question

On Undersea Gravitic Domes:

The Imperial Palace (TD #9) and the undersea city of Zlodh (Darrians)
are from the late CT / early MT era.  Palace tech level is 13.  Zlodh
tech level may be as high as 16, but could be significantly less.

The Palace is a 1 km ball held hovering 500 m over Capital.  It's
actually held up by ground-based repulsors -- the Palace itself only
has a backup grav system powerful enough to gently set it down in
case of repulsor failure.  (This is CT/MT, repulsor bays were fairly
low-tech.)  

Now, if the palace were a solid ball of ice, it would mass about 500
million metric tonnes, and weigh five billion Newtons on Earth.  The
underside cross-section is a million square meters, so to hold it up
the repulsors have to exert a pressure on the underside of about 5 MPa
(which is about 50 atm).

Zlodh lies on the floor of Darrian's Polar Sea, about 2000 m under
the northern ice-cap.  On Earth, pressure at this depth would be about
200 atm (or 20 MPa).  The description on pp. 38-39 of _Darrians_ imply
the use of repulsors: "A network of grav generators mounted in a
latticework of metal struts keeps the seawater at bay. [...] The grav
generators constantly repel the waters above the lattice, creating
strong currents around all of the city."

However -- neither of these sites are on Earth; the diameter of Capital
is about 8000 km, and Darrian is about 6400 km.  Assuming that they are
as dense as Earth, Darrian's surface gravity is 0.50 G and Capital's is
0.64 G.  Therefore the correct pressures are probably closer to

  Imperial Palace (Capital):     32 atm
  City of Zlodh (Darrian):      100 atm

This is a difference of just over a factor of three in the repulsion
pressure, assuming the repulsion force is evenly spread out.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:18:43 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tech question

Jetrock  wrote:

>> >Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
>> >enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
>> >open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
>> >station.
>> 
>> Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
>> million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.
>> 
>Most ship servicing can be done from inside the ship--remember, jump craft
>are designed to operate in conditions where it's physically impossible to
>be outside the craft for a week. 

My analogy would be a modern nuclear submarine - the day-to-day running
you can do from within the ship, and you can do a good deal of the
dockside work with the boat in the water; but the dockside jobs are a
lot easier in dry dock.

>And you can service the ship in a vacc
>suit: TL8 vacc suits are kinda clumsy, but by the time you hit TL13 or so
>they're no more uncomfortable than coveralls with a helmet. 

There are a few other disadvantages to working in low/zero-G; zero
atmosphere.

>And if you
>want to unload cargo, an umbilical access tube is much simpler and cheaper
>than pressurizing a bay for a 5000-ton craft. 

Well, that depends if there *is* a simple tech to keep an atmosphere in,
as the original poster asked. Personally, I don't think that there is
(at TL15/16, anyways) - but I can see why you'd want one.

>If you *must* service the
>hull in shirtsleeves, then a larger version of the "portable airlock", a
>pressurized blister that attaches to the hull, mentioned earlier in this
>thread makes no sense.

?

>But your "magnetic field" that passes ships but not air doesn't exist, at
>least not within Traveller tech levels. So you're stuck with pressurizing
>and depressurizing that 10,000 dt landing bay every time you want to park
>something in it--or just install some umbilical tubes and a big airlock!

Ahem, not `my' magnetic field. As I said above, I personally don't think
it's possible at the current TLs.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #856
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 857



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Grav Vehicle ATC (was Re : tech question)
GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: Versions
Re: tech question
RE: tech question
RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted
Re: Re : tech question
Re : tech question
Re Electricity
OT: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: Marines, Zhodani, and Battledress
Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging (Re: Versions)
Re: Surviving Life-support Failure
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging (Re: Versions) 
Re: Dark Nebula Data? 
Re : Tech Question
Re : Vaccuum Flowers (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:41:59 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Grav Vehicle ATC (was Re : tech question)

> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:48:27 -0700
> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
> Subject: Re : tech question
> 
> Ob Traveller:  How dangerous are air/rafts and grav speeders in the
> urban context (compared to TL 8 wheeled vehicles)?  I assume that there
> are aerial "streets" in cities with a lot of contragrav traffic (and no
> intersections, because different traffic directions are at different
> altitudes; there are "on ramps" and "off ramps" for changing
> direction).  
> 
> What about between cities?  Are there official "freeways" for grav
> traffic between urban centers, or can you fly from here to there by any
> scenic route you like?  Inasmuch as grav vehicles allow for much finer
> control than TL 8 aircraft, and don't require any special facilities for
> take-off and landing, I doubt that the contemporary aircraft system is a
> good model.

I'm a helicopter pilot, which is about as close as you're going to get to
grav vehicle flight characteristics. Here are a couple of examples from
real world helicopter operations:

In cities (and other dense urban terrain) helicopter traffic is routinely
restricted to specific corridors. These have readily identifiable visual
reporting points and generally follow linear features, like roads and
rivers. Oncoming traffic (opposite directions on the same route) is
separated horizontally, usually by staying on one side of the linear
feature. Sometimes corridors are designated for one-way traffic only, with
the other direction some distance away. Crossing traffic is usually
separated by altitude and by positive control -- the crossing point is one
of the visual reporting points. Common frequencies allow all pilots to
track what is going on, and to cross-talk if necessary.

Most cities don't see all that much helicopter traffic, but places that do
- -- the Army Aviation Center and School at Fort Rucker, Alabama (which
typically has more air traffic actions logged in a day than Chicago
O'Hare), the various Combat Training Centers (Fort Irwin, Fort Polk,
Hohenfels) during training rotations -- use essentially the same system,
under military control.

In areas where the traffic isn't so dense, most helicopters fly wherever
they want on a "see and avoid" basis -- the pilot is responsible to see
other aircraft, rotary- or fixed-wing, and avoid it. There are no-fly areas
posted on aviation charts, and I would generally rather fly around an urban
area than through it unless I have business there. 

The times that I've flown into large commercial airports, the air traffic
controllers take advantage of the fact that we can fly anywhere and land
anywhere to keep us away from the fixed-wing traffic patterns. They
normally bring us in at right angles to the traffic pattern and below its
altitude, straight in to the base of the tower, and then direct us to
refuel or the fixed base operator from there. Small airports generally
prefer we use the traffic pattern, so they can keep track of where we're
going.

Of course, a helicopter on an instrument flight plan is just another
airplane (albeit a slow one) and follows the same rules, including flying
fixed routes and making standard approaches.

These comments apply equally well to the United States, Germany, Korea,
Somalia, and Haiti -- say TL5-8, Law 0-6. Extending them to other TLs and
law levels is left as an exercise for the reader.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:42:19 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

I came across something interesting and I was wondering if it has 
already been brought up and decided on or not.

Considering that all MDrive Thrust Modules for GT are based on 
Long Term Access, is it legal to develop a thruster module (or any 
other module that requires a Power slice or Propulsion slice) that 
doesn't use long term access for use in fighters, shuttles and the 
like?

If so, then here are some numbers for your review.

GTL10 Thruster Module (Short Term Access)
1 Space (480 cf)
200 sTons of Thrust

Fusion Reactor Slice
20,000 kW
2 sTons
80 cf

Thruster
20,000 kW
10 sTons
400 cf

Totals
12 sTons
0.6 MCr

Crew not needed due to short term access.

I just made a 50 dTon GTL10 fighter with 9G Acceleration using this 
thruster module.  And that was using the standard systems using 
Long Term Access requirements.

Any comments?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:59:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

Bont writes:
> I came across something interesting and I was wondering if it has 
> already been brought up and decided on or not.
> 
> Considering that all MDrive Thrust Modules for GT are based on 
> Long Term Access, is it legal to develop a thruster module (or any 
> other module that requires a Power slice or Propulsion slice) that 
> doesn't use long term access for use in fighters, shuttles and the 
> like?

Sure.  However, it probably needs a full spacedock (rather than a vehicle bay) for maintenance, since a vehicle with only short term access can't be repaired from inside the vehicle.
> 
> If so, then here are some numbers for your review.
> 
> GTL10 Thruster Module (Short Term Access)
> 1 Space (480 cf)
> 200 sTons of Thrust
> 
> Fusion Reactor Slice
> 20,000 kW
> 2 sTons
> 80 cf
> 
> Thruster
> 20,000 kW
> 10 sTons
> 400 cf

It still needs short term access space.  This is two spaces, not one.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:35:58 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Versions

> From: Steven Hudson
> >From: SD Mooney 
> ...
> >But, in the spirit of the enemy of my enemy being my friend - the
> >Confederation has suffered greatly from the expansionism of the
Imperium.
> >Perhaps you could start a 6th Frontier War at the same time as we start
the
> >2nd Great Patriotic War for the Liberation of Terra and the Solomani
Race
> >from Vilani Enslavement?
> 
>   We might pal up with the Vargr (at least they're treacherous in a
somewhat
> reliable fashion), but teaming up with the fools that arranged the
Solomani 
> Rim War (when doing well, throwing it all away is _dumb_) is too much.

Well, we Vargr kept on fighting the Imperium after the Zhodani made peace
in the last Frontier War.  We're still fighting.  Hardly a month goes by
without some Imperial ship or world being raided.  So who's treacherous?

If the Zhodani ally with the pinkie-supremacists, they will be making a big
mistake.  We Vargr know who our enemies are.  Could the Zhodani withstand
the combined strength of the Vargr _and_ the Imperium?

On the question of fashion:  the cloaks the Zhodani nobility wear with
combat armour are really quite an excellent piece of 'Evil Empire' chic. 
But of course no humans can the good taste and fashion sense of the Vargr.

I should point out that Zhodani Ugg boots are derived from a Vargr design,
as you can tell from the name.  Thank you for the Buni hides, though.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:52:07 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: tech question

> From: Bruce Johnson 
> Most power plants, like coal and nuclear plant have to be built huge to
> work economically. Others, like hydroelectric are built huge because
> they're restricted in where they can work, so the most power that's
> possible is gotten out of them.

I used to work for the Papua New Guinea Electricity Commission.  There's a
lot of hydo-electric power used there, as well as diesel plants (the latter
particularly on islands).  They have done a lot of work with mini-hydro
plants, to provide power to remote areas.  These plants are very small. 
There's also not much of a national power grid - most of the country
doesn't have power.  

> These things are no larger than the transformer substations serving the
> same area now, and are considerably safer. 
> 
> (When I was a 6th grader, I knew a couple kids who snuck into one of
> those, despite all the warnings, and got a graphic demonstration of what
> high voltage and current does to you. One kid died several weeks later,
> and the other lived, but minus an arm, part of a leg, and with horrid
> burns.)

When I was at university in Brisbane in the early '80s, I lived across the
road from a big transformer.  In winter it used to attract possums, because
it was warm.  Every couple of weeks one would get to close, and explosively
cut our power off.  That transformer has since had a wire cage built around
it.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:34:42 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: tech question

> Our society has *no* technologies that will kill a significant percentage
> of the population if they fail - at least, not kill quickly. That
> is, IMO, a very
> different situation than a vacuum world city with a dome overhead,
> where *everyone* dies within minutes of a dome breach.
>
> That doesn't mean that people won't develop a casual attitude towards
> its reliability, but it does mean that such a casual attitude will take
> more psychological effort.
>
> Adventure seed or color bit: on such a vacuum world, there is an
> outbreak of agoraphobia - people becoming extremely, sometimes
> violently afraid of leaving buildings and walking out under the dome.
> Are they recent immigrants from a more hospitable world? Is a psionic
> terrorist digging out the fears that all citizens of this world carefully
> bury? What happens when some of these sufferers crack completely,
> and decide to destroy the source of their fear?
>
> Chicken Little was right....
>
> Walt Smith
>



I'm currently in the last pages of Kim Stanley Robinson's "Red Mars".  Great
descriptions of what happens with a dome blowout.  Even worse is when
terrorists hack into the physical plant and gradually start hyperoxygenating
the atmosphere in the dome and then popping a missle through the dome or
setting off a radio controlled spark.  *** POOOOF ***  Human torches
everywhere.  Ouch.

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:44:08 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: 3D Trav Images: Feedback Wanted

ROFL!!!  You should see me at work at my "real" job.  Lightwave rendering a
SJG shot in the background, Photoshop up with some SJG stuff and work stuff
as  I type in a PBEM response in the e-mail program open over that :)

Jesse



> Tommy Grav wrote:
> >
> > I'm currently learning how to leave my models in a semidetailed
> > state and use bumpmaps and other imagemaps to finish them.
>
> Yes...as the manual for Strata StudioPro says: "A bump map is worth a
> million polygons."
>
> 3D stuff is addicting though...you'll find yourself working on stuff
> when you should really be doing real work (he says as he types into a
> mail window over a Photoshop window with a top rendering of a ship he'd
> texturing;-)
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:11:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

>On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>> Ob Traveller:  How dangerous are air/rafts and grav speeders in the
>> urban context (compared to TL 8 wheeled vehicles)?  I assume that there
>> are aerial "streets" in cities with a lot of contragrav traffic (and no
>> intersections, because different traffic directions are at different
>> altitudes; there are "on ramps" and "off ramps" for changing
>> direction).
>>
>> What about between cities?  Are there official "freeways" for grav
>> traffic between urban centers, or can you fly from here to there by any
>> scenic route you like?  Inasmuch as grav vehicles allow for much finer
>> control than TL 8 aircraft, and don't require any special facilities for
>> take-off and landing, I doubt that the contemporary aircraft system is a
>> good model.
>>

We had this discussion a decade ago (gad, time flies!).

There are two basic models to use for ATC. One is centralized, with each
vehicle under remote control. The other is ditributed, with each vehicle
under local pilot control but with a safety override (think of birds
flocking - a very simple neural net will prevent collisions).

Centralized models are easy - just think ATC.

Distributed ones let player maintain control of their grav vehicle, but
give the added fun of trying to follow someone in a crowd.

Which model is used is pretty much up to the referee - we came up evenly
balanced on advantages and disadvantages.


Two points you haven't mentioned: privacy and litter.

When anyone can fly anywhere, traditional privacy goes out the window. Your
neighbourhood teenagers can float past your bedroom window, ogle you in
your pool...land on your 200th story balconey...

As to litter, imagine those same teenagers in an open topped air/raft on
friday night, playing 'hit the target' with their empties. Take your
average commuter traffic and litter, and then imagine in landing from
several hundred metres. Armoured umbrellas, anyone?  One solution owuld be
to have doors/windows that absolutely WON'T open until the CG is turned off
- - but that only makes the game more exciting (turn off CG, open door and
drop empty, turn on CG before you hit ground yourself).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:13:15 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re : tech question

>Ob Traveller:  How dangerous are air/rafts and grav speeders in the
>urban context (compared to TL 8 wheeled vehicles)?  I assume that there
>are aerial "streets" in cities with a lot of contragrav traffic (and no
>intersections, because different traffic directions are at different
>altitudes; there are "on ramps" and "off ramps" for changing
>direction).

IMTU really advanced GTL10-12 worlds typically have extensive public
transportation in urban areas. Really local transportation is by slidewalk.
Area transportation is by maglev or contra-grav lift monorail. Of course the
**very** rich and government services use ground cars and air/rafts.  Auto
controlled taxis are also available at a modest price.

>What about between cities?  Are there official "freeways" for grav
>traffic between urban centers, or can you fly from here to there by any
>scenic route you like?  Inasmuch as grav vehicles allow for much finer
>control than TL 8 aircraft, and don't require any special facilities for
>take-off and landing, I doubt that the contemporary aircraft system is a
>good model.

I think that the use of air/rafts on heavily settled worlds is also
unlikely. Maglev trains will be almost as fast. Transcontinental travel will
be via suborbital shuttle. The problem with letting grav vehicles go just
anywhere is that they **will** go just anywhere. I suppose that advance
sensor systems and computers could keep vehicle from hitting each other (and
the ground or buildings) but what will keep them from landing on my property
or a secret military base or somewhere else they shouldn't be.  Much easier
to just limit their use by both law and custom as the use horses and carts
were limited in ancient Rome.
Of course far outside urban areas, where the land is thinly settled will be
different. On large land estates and on farms (corporate or private) wheeled
or floating ground vehicles would probably still be used (likely power cell
powered), and air/rafts for utilitarian uses.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:22:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Electricity

>Actually, at least here in America, it is a reliance on electricity, not
>simply extensive use. With the loss of electricity the telephone system goes
>out. With no telephone system food distribution becomes problematic at best,
>placing emergency resources becomes difficult, if not simply impossible.
>
Not throughout ALL of america. I live in Alaska, which is (for the
unitiated) part of North America, and yes, a state of the US. Find the
Yukon and go west.

Some places are so cold, they don't shut the vehicles off at all during the
winter. I've seen CO2 "snow" occur NATURALLY. (It's spectacular to watch it
fume when the sun rises... but don't go out for more than a few minutes
without 2-3 layers of wool over your nose and mouth, and sealed goggles
over your eyes.)

at least 10% of alaskans don't have centralized power. Many of the bush
communities still have those hand cranked WW II radios (battery life at -20
C is negligible....). Most of the communities in state are not on any
physical power or phone lines. Several stations STILL air "Letters" to
people in the bush, since much of the bush lacks mail, phone, and satellite
linkages.

And yet, people up here are much more familiar with how to survive without
power, phones, etc... because many (some 60 thousand plus) still do.
Despite the fact that most large villages have a lot of TV's, and home
generators. About the only community up here that would be affected
drastically would be Anchorage, and only if it got hit by a MAJOR cold
snap... (I've lived through a 3 day blackout... while there was snow on the
ground, and daytime highs were below 0 C). The State and Local disaster
plans include provisions for a 10 day power outage during a major cold snap
(where daytime highs are -5 to -10 C!). Losing power not only did not shut
down the community, it didn't even shut down the schools. Most businesses
lost 1 day of work, some two.

The thing is that most alaskans have some form of back-up sources of heat
and light in home. Any city which had some kind of "field effect" air
retention system would probably also have some way of sealing the living
areas off in case of failure. Yeah, you loose the laws and gardens...

In more hostile areas, like undersea or the oft mentioned flourine
environment, you can be sure most buildings would be "hab-failure rated",
and many would have some form of decentralized power, and enough life
support for an evac... say, 4weeks or so. Even physical domes would have
these kind of "failure proofing" systems. Current subs and ships generally
have compartmentalization, for much the same reasons... a partial failure
is not always a catastrophic failure.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:21:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: OT: The Blair Witch Project.

I have just returned from a sneak preview of The Blair Witch Project.  I
have every light in the apartment on, including my flashlight, and am
scared to be left alone for more that 35 seconds.

I may never sleep again.  I will *never* enter a wooded area after dark.

See this movie.  It is the best horror film I have ever seen.

ObTrav: Can't think of one, since my teddy-bear and I are hiding under the
desk until dawn.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:26:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>


>I have just returned from a sneak preview of The Blair Witch Project.  I
>have every light in the apartment on, including my flashlight, and am
>scared to be left alone for more that 35 seconds.
>
>I may never sleep again.  I will *never* enter a wooded area after dark.
>
>See this movie.  It is the best horror film I have ever seen.


Lucky, lucky man. I'm dying to see this one myself! Don't say anything other
than what you've already said.

ObTrav: In my Traveller Universe the Darmine, for some reason, love churning
out horror movies which tend to be relatively popular across the Imperium. I
know, I know, it's a weak ObTrav, but it really is part of MTU, it's not
something that I just came up with for this post!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:42:28 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Marines, Zhodani, and Battledress

>From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: Marines, Zhodani, and Battledress
...
>AM4: Zhodani, p. 15.
>
>"Battle Dress is required when the character is carrying PGMP-13 or
>FGMP-14. Zhodani forces issue battle dress to individuals armed with such
>weapons, but rarely to others."
>
>Ibid., p. 16.

  FWIW, the CT progression of MP HE weapons (hmm..., Kenji?) from TL's C to
F clearly indicates that the OTU is still clearly limited wrt how much recoil
can be damped in a shoulderarm sized package. This has implications for the
idea of million-G airlock screens existing at normal Trav TL's.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:43:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging (Re: Versions)

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Versions
...
>>accomplish any of your mad dreams. The possibility of a great empire run by
>>madmen is distressing, however unlikely.
>
>Sadly, the fact of a great Empire (albeit Vilani so it probably rates as
>'quite good' not 'great') being ruled by madmen is a fact with the
>deplorable and oppressive regime of the Third Imperium.
>
>We at Solsec, sorry, the Solomani Party have long been impressed by the way
>you have integrated mind control to the point that your people expect it
>and love it!

  And don't perceive it as such, either. BTW, one of our roving cultural
attaches in the Rim reports that he/she still can't find a copy of the
ancient text "1984" (?) - you people aren't suppressing books again?

...
>>reliable fashion), but teaming up with the fools that arranged the Solomani
>>Rim War (when doing well, throwing it all away is _dumb_) is too much.
>>
>>  <ahem> I wouldn't trust you people to sit the right way on a lavatory...
>
>Methinks that you are trying to provoke us to coming at you through the
>Imperium to save money on another Frontier war. Hmm. It won't work.

  Frontier Wars with the Imperium are a sound investment in our future, not 
a simple expense. Of course, we also don't get paved like you clowns :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:43:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Surviving Life-support Failure

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Surviving Life-support Failure (was: tech question)
...
>Ahem, have you BEEN to Montreal recently?  A flourine atmosphere is
>nothing compared to the humidity we get here! :-)  (though we've been
>having GREAT weather recently, so I shouldn't complain)

  Meanwhile here in Lotusland we're starting summer - people no longer
get to schedule both a ski trip and windsurfing for the same afternoon;
now they either have to choose between the two or get up extra early...

  Maybe when your sentence is over you can apply for a visa? :>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:57:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging (Re: Versions) 

> >From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >Subject: Re: Versions
> ...
> >>accomplish any of your mad dreams. The possibility of a great empire run by
> >>madmen is distressing, however unlikely.
> >
> >Sadly, the fact of a great Empire (albeit Vilani so it probably rates as
> >'quite good' not 'great') being ruled by madmen is a fact with the
> >deplorable and oppressive regime of the Third Imperium.
> >
> >We at Solsec, sorry, the Solomani Party have long been impressed by the way
> >you have integrated mind control to the point that your people expect it
> >and love it!
> 
>   And don't perceive it as such, either. BTW, one of our roving cultural
> attaches in the Rim reports that he/she still can't find a copy of the
> ancient text "1984" (?) - you people aren't suppressing books again?

They stopped production of it in favour of a comedy series called 'The 
Congressional Record'.  Unfortunately, they stopped publication of that 
series about 1500 years ago after a 4 century run, but you can find back 
issues if you look for them.
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:34:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dark Nebula Data? 

> > The main prob I have with the GEnie format files is, I have no bloody clue
> > *what* bases are in there.  They're not in their normal place.  The whole
> > sector is baseless, as far as I can tell...
> >
> >> Codes:
> >> T: Tlaukhu Naval Base
> >> R: Clan Naval Base
> >> U Tlaukhu and Clan Naval Bases both present
> >>
> >> Tlaukhu Naval Bases support the operations of interstellar naval units
> >> belonging to particular clans of the Twenty-Nine.
> >>
> >> Clan Naval Bases support naval operations for lesser clans and are generally
> >> smaller and not as well equiped.
> >>
> >> Their are other base codes that I couldn't find a reference for: F and J.
> I
> >> assume they are Aslan Scout bases and way stations... but I have no basis
> >> for that claim other than guessing.

Thanxx.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:19:55 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Tech Question

Glenn M. Goffin wrote :-
> "Qantas.  Qantas has never had a fatal accident."  That was how we knew
> that Raymond wasn't really rational.  
AFAIK, QANTAS *hasn't* had fatalities secondary to crashing planes,
going back to the '30s.
There *have* been a very few nasty injuries sustained by ground crew.

'Ob Rain Man' : We knew that Raymond wasn't regarded as 'normal' because
he was institutionalised, among other things.

Ob Trav : The contemporary aircraft system is a good model for grav
vehicles. Aircraft are restricted to three dimensional corridors of
airspace and their movements very closely observed.
	The grav vehicle system will be highly automated - and control will
vary with law level, etc.
	(Did you check out the story of the Mueller VTOL car a few months back?
Prof Mueller (UCal at Davis) is waiting for a semi-automated traffic
control system to go with his verticar....)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
[supporting my national airline ;-) ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:20:10 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Vaccuum Flowers (longish)

Charles Collin wrote :-
> Another possibility is
> to lay a length of plant across the ground and use temperature
> differentials across shadow/sun sections to generate electrical energy (I
> think this could be done even if the temp differentials are quite low, any
> gearheads wanna clear this up for me?). 

Energy or power density will scale with the fourth power of the absolute
temperature, according to Stefan's law. We are considering a
low-temperature system here, so this limits us to life with a slow
metabolic rate ; but the plant will be long-lived in the absence of
catastrophe because of this.
	Running (horizontal root systems like grasses) are indeed an
alternative to the system I outlined earlier, and more likely in the
absence of significant amounts of internal heat generation.

> Hmm, I don't think the fact that the solvents are not elements of
> superconductors is a problem.  The flowers may have started bringing in
> the building blocks simply because they were suspended in whatever the
> solvents are. 

No, my point was (and I should have made this explicit) is that these
solvents may not be able to dissolve the salts we need (unlikely, as the
compounds listed have reasonable dipole moments, but there are always
exceptions to the rule).
 	This is a considerable hindrance in the early stages. Carrier
molecules would have evolved if these substances were vital to
metabolism, as the organism's ancestors got bigger (analogy : oxygen
transporters (haem and haemoglobin) in Earthly life).

> These are not terribly
> rare (Selenium can be found in brazil nuts), so I think it's plausible
> that the building blocks would be there.

In cosmic terms, elements heavier than zinc (atomic number=30) *are*
rare. For every hydrogen atom there is 10^(-6) oxygen atoms ; elements
heavier than zinc are at least one hundred thousand times less abundant
than oxygen.
	The 'rare earth' elements (yttrium, lanthanum, etc.) are going to be
hard to find in significant concentrations on iceball planets (they are
called 'rare earths' because they are present here in smallish
concentrations in exploitable deposits). Remember that in the outer
reaches of a solar system, water, ammonia, methane, oxygen, etc. will
freeze out over the top of any rocky or metallic body that's there.
	Having said this, there's always a chance of 'salting' the surface via
collisions with other bodies (a rocky or metallic asteroid, say).

> An interesting thing to consider is how these plants might have evolved.
As I mentioned in my initial reply, life as we know it relies on energy,
building blocks and solvents.
The lack of an atmosphere is a hindrance rather than an absolute
prohibition on the development of life.
Consider Jupiter's moon Europa. It is pretty much a large iceball with
no significant atmosphere.
	However, thanks to the tidal heating produced by Jupiter, liquid water
may be present under the icy surface. So we have two out of the above
three requirements for life. If there is an appropriate set of building
blocks in the water, life is inevitable. It may only be single celled,
but it's life.

Subsurface microbial life is probably going to be quite common in the
universe.

	We don't need an 'atmospheric loss' scenario, although the two
possibilities there are :- 
	i. Cessation of plate tectonics as the planet's core solidifies leading
to a lack of CO2 cycling (say) and slow atmospheric 'bleed-off' ;
	ii. Abolition of local greenhouse effect (identical cause to (i) above
for borderline worlds), leading to the atmosphere freezing out onto the
planet's surface.

Evolution of the vaccuum flower? Subsurface microbes -> communities
formed to enhance feeding -> exploitation of temperature gradients as
another energy source -> increased gradient required as communities get
larger -> development of the 'flower' part of the plant.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #857
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 858



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All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Brown Dwarfs
Bring Me The Head Of Bill Malone!!!
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Surviving Life-support Failure
Re: Re : Superconductor Questions (Vaccuum flowers, longish)
Seeking Ringrose/McCallion
Water Rights (was re: tech question)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:57:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

In mail you write:

> A couple of notes:
> -the density of brown dwarfs is pretty poorly known, in spite of
> recent nice work by the 2MASS people; I wouldn't be sure as yet that
> they're "twice as common" as normal stars - error bars are pretty
> big.  If you do want them to be common, a good Traveller approach
> would just be to assume that every empty hex has a brown dwarf in
> it...

I prefer going the other way simply because the average spacing of
stars in Traveller seems rather closer than in reality.

Either way, I just plain *don't* see a brown dwarf as being at all
useful for scooping fuel from unless it's *really* old. Between the
*high* temperatures of the upper" layers, and the *humongous* gravity
field (leading to skim velocitys best not thought of) I don't think a
ship has much chance of surviving.

Is there any reason a brown dwarf might be unlikely to have "planets"?
Something Ganymede sized, and close enough in to stay warm might be
useful. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:14:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Bring Me The Head Of Bill Malone!!!

Has *ANYBODY* heard from Bill Malone this month?  Last address I had for him 
was wmbenmalone@yahoo.com.  Anybody got a different addy for him?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:19:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

>> On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:07:19 -0700, Jesse DeGraff wrote:
>>
>> >open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?
>>
>> Grav Plates TL 10.
>>
>> Jens

> But does that allow the bay to be open to space while retaining the
> atmosphere in the bay?  That's the tidbit that I need.
>
> Jesse

Not likely. Gravity is a *very* weak force. And air molecules at normal
temps are moving pretty fast.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:10:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a large
> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?

Nope. And there *shouldn't* be the sort of "docking bays" you describe.
You dock *to* a station, not *in* it. 

It's not like there's weather to worry about. And there are lots and
*lots* of good reasons for *not* wanting ships *inside* a structure.
To name just one, at least *some* of these ships (*all* of them at
lower TL's) have *reaction drives*.

Check out the safety zones for a Shuttle launch. And the stuff they do
to protect the pad from the exhaust. Things like a *million* gallon
water deluge system. 

And for that matter, notice that seagoing ships do *not* go into
buildings, they tie up *alongside* docks, or even just anchor "nearby
(assume a parking orbit). 

Large aircraft don't go into buildings except from protection from bad
weather and for maintainance.

Sorry, but I just don't buy Star Trek's "Spacedock" and similar things
in Star Wars. Babylon 5 was kind of on the edge. They *did* allow
*small* ships inside, but most "parked" and used shuttles.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:34:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> You must be pretty unhappy already if you live in a modern, industrialized
> country!
>
> Most of us already rely on an electrically powered web (and I don't mean the
> WWW) for life. If all of the electrical power in the world went off
> tomorrow, and stayed off, how many people would die? Hundreds of millions? A 
> billion? Maybe more?
>
> Few people give a second thought to how precariously our own society is
> balanced.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I think the difference is how fast people died off.
>
> In our society, a complete failure of all power generation equipment
> would really only kill those on life support - at least immediately.
> Compare that to an entire city of millions, where everyone dies in
> a matter of minutes if the grav support fails. It would take days
> (or even months) for our society to suffer those kinds of casualties
> from power loss, giving us some time to try and fix things.

Dynamite (or let an "unfortunate" earthquake take them out) a couple
of pipelines in southern California[1]. And suddenly Los Angeles will be
stuck with a supply of water that can't last more than a couple of
*days*. And no way to get more in time.

It's a miracle that they *haven't* had a major outage of that sort yet.
And when it finally happens, things could get real interesting. 

[1] as I understand it, there's one from Northern California, and
there's the one that carries water from the Colorado. Without them, LA
can't meet it's *emergency* needs, much less anything else.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:40:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Jetrock  wrote:
>
>>Actually, unless there's some very good reason for the ship to be
>>enclosed, why bother having "interior" docks at all? Just make an
>>open-frame station and have ships dock against the exterior of the
>>station.
>
> Servicing the ship. Unloading some cargos. Some jobs are only about a
> million times easier if you can wear coveralls rather than a Vacc-suit.

So you land it. Or you put it in a *drydock*. But that's not *normal*
procedure. Normal procedure is containerized cargo that loads/unloads
automatically. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:43:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Actually, at least here in America, it is a reliance on electricity, not
> simply extensive use. With the loss of electricity the telephone system goes
> out. With no telephone system food distribution becomes problematic at best,
> placing emergency resources becomes difficult, if not simply impossible.

Excuse me? The wireline phone system has it's own *independent* power.
We've had week long outages without losing phone service. Cell phone
systems aren't that robust. They tend to skimp on backup power. And
most digital phone links do rely on public power, not on the phone
company's battery banks and generators. 

> Los Angeles is another case in point. Millions of people live there knowing
> full well that the "big one" might come along and they might day. Business
> goes on as usual. On the east coast, people continue to build homes and live
> in Hurricane Alley. In the midwest, the threat of tornadoes is always
> present.

The big one could be bad. But LA, like NYC is generally ignorant of
their biggest vulnerability. Water. They have *no* local sources worth
mentioning. They both get their drinking water from *hundreds* of miles
away (Northern CA and the Colorado River for LA, the Catskills for NYC).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:24:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Steven,
>
> Personally I'm not sure that gravitics would be the answer to
> atmosphereic control. In the case you site of a park on Luna (sorry no
> refence, I've never been a big Dragon reader) I can buy. If you found or
> made a deep, crater, lined the floor with grav plates and dropped air in
> is would stay there (with some slow loss over time. However, it would
> have to be a DEEP crater to give the proper pressure, or you would have
> to have the gravity a conciderably more than one gee to compress the
> atmospheric "lake".

This reminds me of the factoid that Luna could probably retain a
breathable atmosphere for somewhere between 10k and 500k years. And
that's "retain" in the sense that at the end of the timespan, it's no
longer *breathable*, not no longer *there*. Over *geological* time this
is nothing. 

So we could have an ambitious job of terraforming, or (just barely) an
old project of Grandfather's that still has a (barely) breathable
atmosphere and is being "refreshed" by nudging a few comets or
something to it. 

Nothing like hitting an exploring group of players with somethging
like this.

Sensor op: "Captain! This planet has a breathable atmosphere!"
  Captain: "I thought it was too small? Is it exceptionally dense?"
Sensor op: "No, I checked that. It's got a normal mass for its size.
            This atmosphere *can't* be natural. The computer says it
            can't possibly last more than a few hundred thousand years
            on its own..."

Sudden silence as everybody on the bridge starts wondering about *who*
is responsible for the atmosphere. And what *else* they are going to find.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 99 13:35:43 +0100
From: greg.aldridge@marconicomms.com
Subject: Re: tech question

> Sorry, but I just don't buy Star Trek's "Spacedock" and similar things
> in Star Wars. Babylon 5 was kind of on the edge. They *did* allow
> *small* ships inside, but most "parked" and used shuttles.
> 

Just a thought, but in 'Star Trek: The Motion Picture', didn't Kirk beam up
to a space station, and was from there shuttled (by Scotty) to the refitted
Enterprise.  IIRC, the Enterprise was enclosed on three sides (top, left &
right) by a lattice structure which was just supporting lights, so that the
crews working on the outside of the hull had good lighting.

Again IIRC, didn't the 'Spacedock' suddenly appear at the end of 'The Wrath
of Khan'.  Its main purpose seemed to be to let the people who were sat
aboard the station drinking coffee see how badly damaged the Enterprise was
when she returned from the Genesis planet.
(Or was that at the start of 'Search for Spock'?)


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Greg Aldridge      | "Since light travels faster than sound, isn't
   Software Engineer,   | that why some people appear bright until you
   EASAMS Engineering   |              hear them speak?"
        Systems         |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Email: Greg.Aldridge@marconicomms.com    Tel: 01245 353221 x4437
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc tm tn t4+ tg ru+ ge(+) 3i+ c+ jt au- ls+ pi ta-- he as vi sy+ so
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:04:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

>>Broaden the discussion from board games to recreations (toys, sports,
>>hobbies....) and you have 101 Recreations, a BITS supplement that Jeff
>>Zeitlin and I are writing. Contributions welcome, both items and essays.
>
>
>Sounds pretty nifty. Where would I send any contributions?

Well, I'm heading off on holiday, and although my house-sitter volunteered
to forward my email after seeing a typical day of the TML that offer was
revoked! (No complaints. Having someone live here when I'm gone is
terrific.)

So send the material to Jeff Zeitlin. He'll be able to reach me.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:04:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

>I came across something interesting and I was wondering if it has
>already been brought up and decided on or not.
>
>I just made a 50 dTon GTL10 fighter with 9G Acceleration using this
>thruster module.  And that was using the standard systems using
>Long Term Access requirements.

I've posted some 7G designs.

In CT, grav compensation was limited to 6G. Indeed, gcomp varied by tech
level. I think that we need to clarify this for GT.

My preferred solution (without checking VE2, 'cause that's packed now) is
to have gcomp capped by tech level, with any Gs in excess of the comped Gs
requiring other means (gsuits, floatation tanks, whatever).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:04:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> (Rob chants the anaesthetist's mantra : "No, no, no, no, no...")
> Firstly, it would take a minimum of a few minutes for people on
> ventilators or circulatory assist devices to die - much longer if the
> staff were doing their job. Immediate death is rare in hospital.
> Most critical facilities, be they hospitals or whatever have backup
> power generation on site.

Just as long as the lessons of the "great blackout" back in the 60s are
still remembered. I know of two different hospitals that found out the
hard way that they'd overlooked crucial details.

The first had just installed a nice, new emergency generator system.
The chief engineer saw the lights go out and confidently reached over
and pushed a button. And nothing happened. Their fancy generator had an
*electric* fuel pump. And no battery backup. 

They finally got it started by a moby kludge. They chopped a hole in
one of the fuel tanks, so they could dreged up some fuel. They took a
bunch of spare tubing and a funnel and went up enough flights of the
emergency stairs to get enough pressure head to feed to injectors. 

The second hospital had a better generator setup. It cut in
automatically and started running just fine. It was in a sub-basement,
near the East River. There was a lot of water seeping in. But no one
had thought to specify that the sump pump for the sub-basement had to
be on the emergency power panel. So the generator flooded out before
anyone realized what was happening...

Trust me. There's *alway* something you'bve overlooked.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:13:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

>> From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
>  
>> And stayed off.  That is the point - power outages are seldom permanent,
>> almost never total. 
>
> That's true as long as we don't get into a war with the Darrians.

Unlike you youngsters, *I* am old enough to remember "The Great
Blackout" on the East Coast in the 60s. Power was out for *days* in
places. 

The usual reason was quite simple. A power plant needs power to run all
the instruments and controls. This isn't normally a problem, because
when you down a generator for repairs or maintenance there are "always"
several others up and running. And if not, you've got tie lines to
other power stations.

Except this time. The way the blackout had worked, after the first
major tieline cut out, each plant facility in turn got presented with
the load the now disconnected generators had been handling. And this
ridiculously *huge* overload had immediately caused the safeties to
shut down the generators to avoid burning them out. So it cascaded thru
the system.

It stopped in places like the small power station where the tech on
watch took one look at the load meter for their tie line to the rest of
the system and violated standing orders by cutting out the tieline
*before* the safeties had a chance to cut in. So his plant continued
supplying their customers, an island of lights in the midst of an ocean
of darkness.

But in most power stations, they had everything (manualy) reset, after
determining that *whatever* it was, it wasn't their equipment. And
there wasn't any power coming over the tielines. 

The folks around the edges of the blackout weren't about to reconnect
those tie lines until they were *sure* they weren't risking their
equipment. Ditto for the few "islands" of power.

It was handled in different ways in different places. Around the edges,
they got folks to come in and double check things, and then they'd
carefully, reluctantly, re-energized that tieline. And in a few hours
that station would have a generator up again, and slowly bring the rest
online. Then they'd repeat the process with the folks they had tielines
to, who were still down.

In NYC (and other ports), they generally had at least one power station
at the docks, because it was so easy to get coal delivered that way. So
they'd get a medium sized frieghter to tie up to their doc, and they
run a (*heavy*!!) cable out to the ship. Ships generate and use a
*lot* of electrical power. Enough that one can easily supply the power
required to bring up a "cold" power station.

In Boston, the local power company called MIT, hoping that MIT, with
it's own power plant might have a generator running. MIT had far more
powerplant than they really needed, because they used it to train
electrical engineers. 

Alas, they had,'t had anything running at the time, and didn't even
have spare steam pressure they could tap from the heating systems for
the dorms. But they said "Give us a bit, we've got an idea".

And since they had some truly weird setups *because* they had a
full-fledged Electrical Engineering proh\gram, they could set up things
a normal plant couldn't. So, shortly, there was line of students
lugging car batteries into one of the labs. 

They got enough hooked together to feed the right voltages and
amperage into *something* and used that to get a smal generator on
line. A few hours later they feed startup power to Boston Edison.

So, yes you *can* have the power out for extended periods if the reason
for the failure is of the "we never thought of that" sort.

Though, as I've pointed out in the past, I rather expect that power
generation is going to start trending back to a less centralized model.
So we may be more vulnerable now that 100 years from now.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:36:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Robert Prior wrote:
>> 
>
>> True. But when electricity was literally a matter of life and death, there
>> _were_ backups. That, at least, was the point I was trying to make. If my
>> very life depended on electricity, I'd have my own power system as a backup
>> to Richmond Hill Hydro.
>
> The problem with these sorts of scenarios, at least inasmuch as their
> application to Traveller is that high TL power generation is, by our
> standards, flabberghastingly decentralized. With cheap, small fusion
> plants, you basically generate power where you need it. 
>
> There _is_ no power grid, per se.
>
> Each building will have it's own fusion plant, perhaps several, plus
> backups.

<snip>

> With local generation you don't need to generate such high currents, and
> you lose a lot less in transmission. As a bonus, since the fuel is
> natural gas or hydrogen, you can ship that with zero loss of energy,
> other than the energy to transport it.

> Once you get cheap little fusion plants, heck, each _ward_ in a hospital
> can have it's own autonomous power source. If one goes down, you just
> run long extension cords...

More likely, as I see it is that there will be *local* grids. Inside
large buildings, you'd tie the generators together so that excess
demand in one area can be met from slack in another area. Add some
decent batteries (says sodium sulfur, or some of the new reversible
fuel cells) and you can store power during slack times for use during
peak load times. This lets you get by with smaller generators.

It also means that even *small* generators will either have built in
tieline and battery load leveling cicuits, or else such will be
available as a cheap, standardized add-on box.

For residential use, I can see most homes in a village on a colony
having their own generator & batteries. But at some point somebody is
going to have excess capacity at a time when a neighbor needs extra.
And it'll be simpler to run a tieline to Charlie and make some sort of
deal.

I expect this sort of thing would evolve into a sort of power co-op
where the co-op owns at least some extra batteries, if not an extra
generator, and all the co-op members are tied into a grid. The grid
will track who is using more than the generate and vice versa. Charges
would be based on this. 

I figure this sort of setup would prevail up to "neighborhood" size.
Neighborhoods might have some limited tie-ins with adjacent
neighborhoods, as insurance, and in case they need extra (or have extra
to sell). 

I don't see any real point in any higher level organization to it. But
I think there *are* sufficient benefits to being able to "trade" power
at these two levels. The excess power from co-op A might get sold to B,
who passes it on to C, etc, until finally co-op Z on the other side of
town gets the extra power they needed to run a vitrifier to pave the
street. :-) Morelikely, they just bought a little from neighboring
co-ops, and that's all *they* know. The links between others would just
adjust the flows to compensate.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:56:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> When I was at university in Brisbane in the early '80s, I lived across the
> road from a big transformer.  In winter it used to attract possums, because
> it was warm.  Every couple of weeks one would get to close, and explosively
> cut our power off.  That transformer has since had a wire cage built around
> it.

We lost power several times this spring because of birds landing on the
pole just outside my window. Seems that the way the wires ran, there
was an inviting perch that caused the bird to be positioned almost
perfectly to facilitate an arc between two of the wires. 

Zap! *BOOM* <dark>

The power crews didn't believe it was birds until about the third time,
when the bird's body had remained fairly intact and near the pole. I
was able to point it out. 

I'm not sure what they did, but the problems ceased. At a guess, they
bent the wires so the "looped" a bit different.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:48:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> A series of well-publicized disasters destroyed the rigid airship industry
> back in the 1930's. The aircraft industry never had a situation where
> this happened to it. 

Not true. The Hindenberg fire killed the passenger market. But the
US Navy went right on flying *their* airships for several years. What
killed *that* program was losing the Shenendoah and the Akron. Both
under conditions that made it quite clear that there was no practical
way to determine *which* storms were survivable and which weren't. And
since they didn't have the speed to *outrun* the storms, that pretty
much klilled them.

The basic fact was that dirigibles, even with *modern* materials, just
can't handle storm stresses. And even with modern weather prediction,
there are way too many areas where they can't outrun storms either. So
they just aren't practical.

> Our society has *no* technologies that will kill a significant percentage
> of the population if they fail - at least, not kill quickly. That is, IMO, a 
> very different situation than a vacuum world city with a dome overhead,
> where *everyone* dies within minutes of a dome breach.

Oh? Check out what happens to folks living downstream of a big dam.
Thankfully, we are *very* good at building these. 

Sure it doesn't kill everyone. But neither will a dome faiulure. To
start with, if they can afford a dome, they are unlikely to be the only
city on the planet. And I'll bet you a cookie that *in spite* of the
dome, the building code will require most buildings to be capable of
maintaining pressure even without the dome. 

> Adventure seed or color bit: on such a vacuum world, there is an
> outbreak of agoraphobia - people becoming extremely, sometimes 
> violently afraid of leaving buildings and walking out under the dome.
> Are they recent immigrants from a more hospitable world? Is a psionic
> terrorist digging out the fears that all citizens of this world carefully
> bury? What happens when some of these sufferers crack completely,
> and decide to destroy the source of their fear?

Even simpler. From one of Katherine MacLean's stories. Reverse the ion
polarity in the air regen system. It'll make people nervous and
irritable. And they'll want to leave. And they'll *hurry*.

In her story, it was an underwater city that was a burough of New York
City. And one of the people in such a hurry to leave "helpfully"
over-rode the speed governor on the elevator to the surface. And
someone else over-rode a safety, so they didn't have to wait so long to
exit the elevator after the car got to the top. With the result that
they got the doors open before the pressure had equalized. And the
entirety of the dome tried to squeeze itself thru the elevator shaft...
Yech!

I'm sure it'd be some *other* combination of well-meaning but ignorant
citizens trying to "help" that'd cause the destruction of the domed
city on the vacuum world. But it'd be just as inevitable. 

The biggest danger to *any* support system is the ignorance of the
general populace. You have to do your best to make sure that the
well-mening are never in a position to do something "helpful".



- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:15:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Surviving Life-support Failure

>  Meanwhile here in Lotusland we're starting summer - people no longer
>get to schedule both a ski trip and windsurfing for the same afternoon;
>now they either have to choose between the two or get up extra early...
>
>  Maybe when your sentence is over you can apply for a visa? :>

Looks like I picked the right week to start my vacation. :-)

So, when is the BC Traveller Collective meeting this year? Next week looks
good for me.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:09:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Superconductor Questions (Vaccuum flowers, longish)

In mail you write:

>> 2. What are the problems involved in a plant producing superconductive
>> organics? 
> AFAIK, all high temperature superconductors so far are ceramics, complex
> rare earth and transition metal oxides - and no-one has yet been able to
> postulate a satisfactory theory of how they work.

Not quite. They can explain several types of superconductivity. But
mostly the "colder" types. So they can predict that known mechanisms
aren't going to goive, say, roon temp superconductors, but they can't
showe that there aren't *other* mechanisms they've overlooking that might.

Also, just about *all* metals will superconduct wonce they get cold enough.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:34:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Seeking Ringrose/McCallion

While tidying today I found an envelope under the sofa, containing a cheque
to me from Robert Ringrose and/or Megan McCallion. No indication what it
was for.

The cheque is dated May 11, 1999, and is  number 956.

Robert or Megan, please contact me!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:48:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Water Rights (was re: tech question)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dynamite (or let an "unfortunate" earthquake take them out) a couple
of pipelines in southern California[1]. And suddenly Los Angeles will be
stuck with a supply of water that can't last more than a couple of
*days*. And no way to get more in time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
New York City has the same kind of situation, from what I've heard.

Considering how the New York City water authorities treat we upstate
New Yorkers who have the temerity to live in "their" watershed, I'm
surprised no annoyed citizens have put this to the test yet with a little
uncivil disobedience.

ObTrav: you can run a range war over water rights on a planet almost
anywhere, just like they had in the old American west...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #858
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 859



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)
Re: Re Electricity
Re: Tech question
Re: tech question
TML cartoon
Re: Grav Compensators (was re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access)
RE: The Blair Witch Project.
RE: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: tech question
Re: Brown Dwarfs
Re: tech question
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Re : tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Re : tech question
Re: GURPS lite

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:13:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)

In mail you write:

> Keven Pittsinger wrote :-
>> If we were living someplace with a flourine atmosphere, for instance,
>> and totally dependent on electricity, and it failed, we'd be toast.
>> 
>
> If we were living someplace with more than a trace of fluorine in the
> atmosphere we'd be in the Star Trek universe. That stuff is so reactive
> that you'd need enormous geological or electrical disturbances to
> 'de-salt' it or otherwise unlock it from rocks. Whatever's on this world
> is pretty valuable that people would live there....

If we didn't breathe oxygen we'd feel much the same about it. It's a
*very* reactive gas, only biological activity (involving some pretty
clever catalytic dodges) allows it to exist in the atmosphere for
significant periods of time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:20:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re Electricity

In mail you write:

> Some places are so cold, they don't shut the vehicles off at all during the
> winter. I've seen CO2 "snow" occur NATURALLY. (It's spectacular to watch it
> fume when the sun rises... but don't go out for more than a few minutes
> without 2-3 layers of wool over your nose and mouth, and sealed goggles
> over your eyes.)

Lord, I thought that CO2 "snow" was only supposed to occur in
Antarctica and Central Siberia in the most extreme conditions!

I still recall my shock when in grade school I saw a photo in my
geography text. It showed someone in Siberia (during the winter)
carrying home a *slab* of milk. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:04:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech question

In mail you write:

> I think that the problem may be that on Earth (a 1G field) to get 1
> atmosphere of pressure the atmosphere is how many km high?

This is (sort of) easy to answer. I discovered that there's a unit
known as a "technical atmosphere" that's quite close to a "standard
atmsphere". 

1 tech atm = 1kg-force per cm^2. 

So the answer to your question basicly becomes how many cm^3 of air are
in a kilogram? That's how many cm tall your "column" of air needs to be.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:21:41 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: tech question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> The big one could be bad. But LA, like NYC is generally ignorant of
> their biggest vulnerability. Water. They have *no* local sources worth
> mentioning. They both get their drinking water from *hundreds* of miles
> away (Northern CA and the Colorado River for LA, the Catskills for NYC).
>

Actually, NYC has this honking big river right next to it. There are water
treatment plants online that already pull in Hudson river water (which
contrary to popular belief isn't actually all that polluted...the PCB's that
GE dumped in there have been sequestered deep in the sediments at the bottom
for many years. You can even eat the fish now. ;-) We had a drought emergency
one of the years I was living there, and they started serving up Hudson water.
It'll be tight, but there'll be water. There are also large reservoirs just
north of the city.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:17:57 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: TML cartoon

I've posted a TML cartoon and a few other bits & pieces recently.  If you
haven't swung by in awhile, now's your chance :)

Best,
Jesse
www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe" (tm)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:04:21 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Grav Compensators (was re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access)

> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:04:56 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster
modules)
> 
> In CT, grav compensation was limited to 6G. Indeed, gcomp varied by tech
> level. I think that we need to clarify this for GT.

"Artificial gravity units include automatic compensation for transient
high-G accelerations (separate "grav compensators" aren't needed) to 3-G at
TL8-9, or 6-G at TL10-12."

GT, p. 107.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:31:46 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.

As Chris Knight said at the BayCon sneak peak trailer "The actress (I forget
her name unfortunately) that plays the lead needs to win the Academy Award
at least".  Unlike Doug, I haven't had a chance to see the movie yet, but I
can't wait to.  I really like your description Doug :)

Jesse

p.s.  Go to their website at:  www.blairwitch.com   It's a wee bit slow [hvy
sarcasm] for 33.6 users (like me at home) unfortunately...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.
> Berry
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 2:22 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: OT: The Blair Witch Project.
>
>
> I have just returned from a sneak preview of The Blair Witch Project.  I
> have every light in the apartment on, including my flashlight, and am
> scared to be left alone for more that 35 seconds.
>
> I may never sleep again.  I will *never* enter a wooded area after dark.
>
> See this movie.  It is the best horror film I have ever seen.
>
> ObTrav: Can't think of one, since my teddy-bear and I are hiding under the
> desk until dawn.
> --
>
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:22:05 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.

At 08:31 AM 7/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
>As Chris Knight said at the BayCon sneak peak trailer "The actress (I forget
>her name unfortunately) that plays the lead needs to win the Academy Award
>at least".  Unlike Doug, I haven't had a chance to see the movie yet, but I
>can't wait to.  I really like your description Doug :)
>
>Jesse
>
>p.s.  Go to their website at:  www.blairwitch.com   It's a wee bit slow [hvy
>sarcasm] for 33.6 users (like me at home) unfortunately...

The site -is- slow.  I work for an ISP and have over 45Mbits of bandwidth
at our office site.  It crawled from page to page.



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:11:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

At 04:34 AM 7/14/99 PST, you wrote:

>Dynamite (or let an "unfortunate" earthquake take them out) a couple
>of pipelines in southern California[1]. And suddenly Los Angeles will be
>stuck with a supply of water that can't last more than a couple of
>*days*. And no way to get more in time.

>[1] as I understand it, there's one from Northern California, and
>there's the one that carries water from the Colorado. Without them, LA
>can't meet it's *emergency* needs, much less anything else.

Let them drink swimming pool water.

<Rant>

The inhabitants of Los Angeles have spent the last sixty years denying that
the live in a desert, and assuming that every drop of water west of the
Rocky Mountains is their's by some divine right.  A few years back during a
severe drought, they refused to enforce a ban on new recreational water
works construction (swimming pools, fountains.)  Los Angeles' mania for
water in the desert almost killed Mono Lake, and they've tried to drain
Northern California's wetlands on more the one occasion. (Nuke the
Peripheral Canal!)

You live in a desert.  Get used to it.

</Rant>

ObTrav: Water wars and water right fights are a prominent part of our
history.  Some very messy little wars could break out on developing worlds
over access to and use of scare potable water resources.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:22:32 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

IMTU brown dwarfs have as good a chance of some sort of planets and
asteroids as anything else.  I tend to roll them up as if they were GG
moons though.

Jim Clem

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:57:21 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) writes:
>In mail you write:
>
>> A couple of notes:
>> -the density of brown dwarfs is pretty poorly known, in spite of
>> recent nice work by the 2MASS people; I wouldn't be sure as yet 
>that
>> they're "twice as common" as normal stars - error bars are pretty
>> big.  If you do want them to be common, a good Traveller approach
>> would just be to assume that every empty hex has a brown dwarf in
>> it...
>
>I prefer going the other way simply because the average spacing of
>stars in Traveller seems rather closer than in reality.
>
>Either way, I just plain *don't* see a brown dwarf as being at all
>useful for scooping fuel from unless it's *really* old. Between the
>*high* temperatures of the upper" layers, and the *humongous* gravity
>field (leading to skim velocitys best not thought of) I don't think a
>ship has much chance of surviving.
>
>Is there any reason a brown dwarf might be unlikely to have 
>"planets"?
>Something Ganymede sized, and close enough in to stay warm might be
>useful. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:13:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

At 04:43 AM 7/14/99 PST, you wrote:

>The big one could be bad. But LA, like NYC is generally ignorant of
>their biggest vulnerability. Water. They have *no* local sources worth
>mentioning. They both get their drinking water from *hundreds* of miles
>away (Northern CA and the Colorado River for LA, the Catskills for NYC).

Shh... don't tell them that.

Douglas Berry
Chairman, Nuke SoCal Till it Glows Committee
dberry@hooked.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:32:37 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

> > I came across something interesting and I was wondering if it has 
> > already been brought up and decided on or not.
> > 
> > Considering that all MDrive Thrust Modules for GT are based on 
> > Long Term Access, is it legal to develop a thruster module (or any other
> > module that requires a Power slice or Propulsion slice) that doesn't use
> > long term access for use in fighters, shuttles and the like?
> 
> Sure.  However, it probably needs a full spacedock (rather than a vehicle
> bay) for maintenance, since a vehicle with only short term access can't be
> repaired from inside the vehicle. 

Hmm ... Didn't think about that, however, it is still an alternative if you 
have a large carrier.  It would be interesting to see how a smaller 
fleet of heavily armored fighters (using short term access PP/Eng) 
would fare against a larger fleet of the "standard."

> It still needs short term access space.  This is two spaces, not one.

Doh!  I copied the wrong one to the email.  You are correct.  It still 
needs short term access.

Does Long Term Access give you access to the hull to make 
repairs there?  Does a vehicle bay?

- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:40:38 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

>In CT, grav compensation was limited to 6G. Indeed, gcomp varied by tech
>level. I think that we need to clarify this for GT.
GT p 107:
Artificial gravity units include automatic compensation for transient high G
accelerations (separate "grav compensators aren't needed) to 3-G at (G)TL8-9
or 6-G at (G)TL10-12.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:55:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

Bont writes:
> > > I came across something interesting and I was wondering if it has 
> > > already been brought up and decided on or not.
> > > 
> > > Considering that all MDrive Thrust Modules for GT are based on 
> > > Long Term Access, is it legal to develop a thruster module (or any
> > > other module that requires a Power slice or Propulsion slice) that
> > > doesn't use long term access for use in fighters, shuttles and the like?
> > 
> > Sure.  However, it probably needs a full spacedock (rather than a vehicle
> > bay) for maintenance, since a vehicle with only short term access can't
> > be repaired from inside the vehicle. 
> 
> Hmm ... Didn't think about that, however, it is still an alternative if you
>  have a large carrier.  It would be interesting to see how a smaller 
> fleet of heavily armored fighters (using short term access PP/Eng) 
> would fare against a larger fleet of the "standard."
> 
> > It still needs short term access space.  This is two spaces, not one.
> 
> Doh!  I copied the wrong one to the email.  You are correct.  It still 
> needs short term access.
> 
> Does Long Term Access give you access to the hull to make 
> repairs there?  Does a vehicle bay?

A vehicle bay is 5% larger than the vehicle it holds, and is basically
form-fitting.  Imagine doing bodywork on a van in a garage with less than a
foot of space on all sides.  For long-term access, figure it is about the same
level of hull access as you have in a large water ship; you can do
'maintenance' work from inside, but major repairs are best done in a
spacedock. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:50:22 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

< snipping GravComp >

> My preferred solution (without checking VE2, 'cause that's packed now) is
> to have gcomp capped by tech level, with any Gs in excess of the comped Gs
> requiring other means (gsuits, floatation tanks, whatever).

GT Utility modules damp out 3G.

IF that's the case, then a GTL12 8 G ship would subject the pilot to 
5G.  I am not a modern day fighter pilot (indeed I am not a fighter 
pilot at all :), but I have seen documentaries where they handle that 
kind of stress and then some.  Just to pass the school they have to 
handle 9G for 5 seconds (IIRC).

I think you are correct, however.  We should have a variable comp 
per TL.

According to VE, it starts at VETL12 with 2G comp and doubles 
every TL after that.  So assuming that GravComp starts 2TL early 
(and uses 3G instead of 2G), then GTL12 should be 12G comp ... 
which I find a bit much.

Side Note: When GT first came out, I swear I read somewhere that 
GTL12 had 6G comp.  Was I daydreaming or is that really in there 
somewhere?  I haven't been able to find it since.






- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:56:44 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Robert Prior wrote:
>>
>
>> True. But when electricity was literally a matter of life and death,
there
>> _were_ backups. That, at least, was the point I was trying to make. If my
>> very life depended on electricity, I'd have my own power system as a
backup
>> to Richmond Hill Hydro.
>
> The problem with these sorts of scenarios, at least inasmuch as their
> application to Traveller is that high TL power generation is, by our
> standards, flabberghastingly decentralized. With cheap, small fusion
> plants, you basically generate power where you need it.
>
> There _is_ no power grid, per se.
>
> Each building will have it's own fusion plant, perhaps several, plus
> backups.

> Once you get cheap little fusion plants, heck, each _ward_ in a hospital
> can have it's own autonomous power source. If one goes down, you just
> run long extension cords...

>More likely, as I see it is that there will be *local* grids. Inside
>large buildings, you'd tie the generators together so that excess
>demand in one area can be met from slack in another area. Add some
>decent batteries (says sodium sulfur, or some of the new reversible
>fuel cells) and you can store power during slack times for use during
>peak load times. This lets you get by with smaller generators.

>For residential use, I can see most homes in a village on a colony
>having their own generator & batteries. But at some point somebody is
>going to have excess capacity at a time when a neighbor needs extra.
>And it'll be simpler to run a tieline to Charlie and make some sort of
>deal.

>I expect this sort of thing would evolve into a sort of power co-op
>where the co-op owns at least some extra batteries, if not an extra
>generator, and all the co-op members are tied into a grid. The grid
>will track who is using more than the generate and vice versa. Charges
>would be based on this.

>I don't see any real point in any higher level organization to it. But

You're forgetting the lazy mind factor. Joe Store Clerk or Betty Lawyer
doesn't give a fiddly fart where their electricity comes from.  They want to
be able to turn on the lights when they need them. Its the same mentality
that keeps Microsoft on top and will prevent Linux from completely taking
over until some company starts loading on all their new computers so a user
can just turn on and start surfing. If they have to worry about load and
judging if they have enough power etc. they'll pay some big company to take
of the details. If that means a major power grid they won't care. The richer
a society is the less they'll care. Who cares about saving $20 a month when
you're making $300,000 a year?


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:13:13 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

> Again IIRC, didn't the 'Spacedock' suddenly appear at the end of 'The
Wrath
> of Khan'.  Its main purpose seemed to be to let the people who were sat
> aboard the station drinking coffee see how badly damaged the Enterprise
was
> when she returned from the Genesis planet.
> (Or was that at the start of 'Search for Spock'?)

It was the beginning "Search for Spock" that they were on the space station.
The docking area was not pressurized though, their was no "air field" like
Star Wars has. OTOH, in ST:TNG the shuttle bays and such did have those "air
fields" and I remember ST:First Contact, Picard and "whats-her-name?" were
running around on the enterprise and they found a room with an airfield
looking down on the earth.

I've never pictured "air-fields" existing in Traveller. I can see docking
bays like the Star Wars Death Star, but the landing area is not pressurized
and people have to link up with the space stations docking mechanism, or
where vacc-suits to venture outside of their ship.

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+(++) !tn t4 ru+ ge>+ !3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls(+) pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:08:19 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

Robert Prior wrote:

>We had this discussion a decade ago (gad, time flies!).
>
>There are two basic models to use for ATC. One is centralized, with each
>vehicle under remote control. The other is ditributed, with each vehicle
>under local pilot control but with a safety override (think of birds
>flocking - a very simple neural net will prevent collisions).
>
>Centralized models are easy - just think ATC.
>
>Distributed ones let player maintain control of their grav vehicle, but
>give the added fun of trying to follow someone in a crowd.

I'd suggest:

Hybrid. While there is no equivalent of ATC, airspace is divided into
altitude bands, each for traffic flying in a certain direction

(simple example with four bands:

        0-2000 feet     Level flight prohibited
        2000-4000 ft    Bearings from NW to NE
        4000-6000 ft    Bearings from NE to SE
        6000-8000 ft    Bearings from SE to SW
        8000-10000 ft   bearings from SW to NW)

Changing direction would involve either a climbing or diving turn.

This system removes the need to simultaneously track a multitude of
vehicles, each controlled by someone with about the same aptitude as a
current car driver; while giving some degree of control to the passage
of traffic.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:17:40 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tech question

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Trust me. There's *alway* something you'bve overlooked.

Basically true, because safety is expensive. For an example of what
happens when you really do let safety drive a design, look at the US
Navy's SUBSAFE programme.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:13:45 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: tech question

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>And for that matter, notice that seagoing ships do *not* go into
>buildings, they tie up *alongside* docks, or even just anchor "nearby
>(assume a parking orbit). 

Have you ever seen the refit complex at Rosyth Royal Dockyard? Or the
submarine refit complex at Devonport? Those seagoing ships go out of the
water and into buildings.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:28:12 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

At 05:08 PM 7/14/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>I'd suggest:
>
>Hybrid. While there is no equivalent of ATC, airspace is divided into
>altitude bands, each for traffic flying in a certain direction
>
>(simple example with four bands:
>
>        0-2000 feet     Level flight prohibited
>        2000-4000 ft    Bearings from NW to NE
>        4000-6000 ft    Bearings from NE to SE
>        6000-8000 ft    Bearings from SE to SW
>        8000-10000 ft   bearings from SW to NW)
>
>Changing direction would involve either a climbing or diving turn.
>
>This system removes the need to simultaneously track a multitude of
>vehicles, each controlled by someone with about the same aptitude as a
>current car driver; while giving some degree of control to the passage
>of traffic.
>
>Aetherem Vincere
>Matt

        Hi, Matt...  I'd suggest a 500' traffic separation gap between each
layer for safety...  so 500 - 2000', 2500 - 4000', 4500 - 6000', 6500 -
8000, 8500 - 10000'.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:17:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS lite

Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> wrote:
>At 10:23 11.07.99 +0100, you wrote:
>>If you're not sure about GT, or GURPS generally, and have resisted
>>downloading GURPS-lite as it was 1.8Mb, I notice that SJG have reduced it
>>to <450kb unzipped. It may be worth downloading a copy now...
>How did they do that without removing content?

By optimising the file in Acrobat Exchange.

It cleans up the code and makes it a lot faster.


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #859
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 14 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 860



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
re: tech question
Re : tech question
Re: Brown Dwarfs
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Grav-influenced cities
re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re Spacedocks
Extreme Weather
Re: tech question
RE: Tech question
Re: Extreme Weather
Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: Grav-influenced cities 
RE: The Blair Witch Project.
G:T Starports Playtesting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:32:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:

>  And don't perceive it as such, either. BTW, one of our roving cultural
>attaches in the Rim reports that he/she still can't find a copy of the
>ancient text "1984" (?) - you people aren't suppressing books again?

No - because we had concerns about our prole-analogues feeling it was
outdated we renamed it 'Today' and publish it in regional variations, ready
for dissemination every breakfast time.

>  Frontier Wars with the Imperium are a sound investment in our future, not
>a simple expense. Of course, we also don't get paved like you clowns :)

We decided to take the wise decision and play a long term game; sadly, we
could do with advance information when you next plan a Frontier War as a
distraction...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:06:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tech question

Matt Clonfero wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>And for that matter, notice that seagoing ships do *not* go into
>buildings, they tie up *alongside* docks, or even just anchor "nearby
>(assume a parking orbit). 

Have you ever seen the refit complex at Rosyth Royal Dockyard? Or the
submarine refit complex at Devonport? Those seagoing ships go out of the
water and into buildings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then there's the Vehicular Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral.

Still, these are structures for *major* work. Subs and ships (and
spaceships) don't go into them to drop off cargo, they go into them
to get rebuilt.

The Star Trek universe has force field technologies as very advanced.
They even use them as part of large structures for load-bearing
(or at least load-assisting) elements - the Structural Integrity Fields.
For a society that has so much skill with force fields, putting up a
field that holds in atmosphere should be an easy task. Once it's easy,
it becomes common usage - instead of someone asking, "Why are
you taking that ship inside to work on it?", people ask, "Why don't
you take it inside?".

FWIW, it wasn't clear to me that the interior docking areas of Spacedock
were pressurized. Perhaps they just wanted a "garage" with opaque walls,
so they could take apart top-secret warp engines without some spy with
a telescope taking pictures?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:50:43 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re : tech question

> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:28:12 -0300
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> Subject: Re: Re : tech question
> 
>         Hi, Matt...  I'd suggest a 500' traffic separation gap between
each
> layer for safety...  so 500 - 2000', 2500 - 4000', 4500 - 6000', 6500 -
> 8000, 8500 - 10000'.

<hoping there are no instrument flight examiners online to catch me if I
screw up...>

The current ATC system (FAA and ICAO) specifies flight altitudes in
controlled airspace (virtually everything more than 1200 feet above ground
level) as follows (all bearings in degrees magnetic):

Instrument flights:

	001-180 	even thousands + 500 feet (2500, 4500, 6500, etc.)
	181-360		even thousands

Visual flights:

	001-180		odd thousands + 500 feet
	181-360		odd thousands

Aircraft are required to maintain assigned altitude +/- 100 feet, providing
300' of separation. The gaps and distances double above 14000 feet (e.g.,
35000, 37000, 39000 feet in one direction). One could eliminate the
visual/instrument difference and proceed using quarters as you suggest.

This is one place where I expect technology, in the form of automatic
altitude holding gear, to improve ATC performance. I'd expect the
permissible error in altitude and the separation between altitudes to get
smaller, perhaps as little as +/- 25 feet and 100 feet of separation (or
metric equivalent). This might let you stack flight levels 150 feet apart.
They won't get any smaller than the maximum dimensions of the aircraft that
are supposed to use them, however.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:02:57 -0700
From: mdeck@quintcom.com
Subject: Re: Brown Dwarfs

> Is there any reason a brown dwarf might be unlikely to have "planets"?
> Something Ganymede sized, and close enough in to stay warm might be
> useful.

Just because the idea got me thinking, I seem to remember a conversation I had a
long time ago (in a country far far away) with some of the astronomy crowd I
used to go drinking with... We were talking about Europa (for more info see
http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/nineplanets/europa.html ) and its lack of of
surface features due to a probable layer of ice atop a layer of liquid water.
What was keeping it liquid was the subject of debate, and the going theory was
massive tidal or tectonic action induced by the close proximity of Jupiter.

You can probably see where I'm going with all this. I think it would be at least
feasable (if not probable) to have a planet with a molten core, a nice _deep_
layer of water (like tens of kilometers), givinplenty of room for some good
gaming possibilities, with a layer of ice on top, orbiting a brown dwarf close
enough to make for enough tidal agitation to keep the water liquid, but not so
close as to have the planet trying to turn itself into a asteriod belt.

Whaddya think?
Cheers, Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:10:32 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

Jesse DeGraff wrote:

> p.s.  Go to their website at:  www.blairwitch.com   It's a wee bit slow [hvy
> sarcasm] for 33.6 users (like me at home) unfortunately...

Be real careful about Spoilers please.

The Independant Film Channel show "Split Screen" did a story on
them about 3-4 months ago.  Its Episode 10 of Split Screen.

Having seen some of the backround stuff on this film, I'm pretty
sure that early on, some key information was inadvertently leaked,
so I think I'm already spoiled, so I won't talk about it anymore
than to ask for [Spoiler] headings on such posts.

Thanks.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:10:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Grav-influenced cities

The recent commentary about grav vehicles has made me wonder what a TL12+
city would look like.

With cheap power, advanced materials, and gravitics, you could build
incredible needles, but would you need to?  It seems to me that futuristic
cities might be more spread out, with high-speed grav vehicles acting as a
mass transit system.  It'd even be easy to have robotic grav cabs avalible
for a fairly low fee.

Any thoughts?

P.S. Of course, all the city garbagemen would wear Battledress for their
entire careers.. (g,d,r..)
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:24:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Grav-influenced cities

Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
With cheap power, advanced materials, and gravitics, you could build
incredible needles, but would you need to?  It seems to me that futuristic
cities might be more spread out, with high-speed grav vehicles acting as a
mass transit system.  It'd even be easy to have robotic grav cabs avalible
for a fairly low fee.
>>>>>>>>>>
I recall a 1970's TV Movie/TV Show, _Fantastic Voyage_ (IIRC). It 
could have been an inspiration piece for the current _Sliders_
series - in _Fantastic Voyage_, a group of people are trapped in 
some kind of dimensional vortex in the Bermuda Triangle, and deal
with all sorts of societies and worlds in their attempts to get home.

A person who joins their group turns out to be from an advanced
future society. He shows the group an image of his home city,
a massive arcology much taller than it is wide, surrounded by what
looks like wilderness. 

His people use their advanced technology to limit their impact on
their planet. They deliberately compress the "footprint" of their cities,
building upwards instead of outwards. Connections between the
cities are by air, and use of any advanced technology on the ground
is strictly limited due to environmental concerns.

While never explicity stated, this social decision to be limit technology
while on their planet's surface is probably the reason this individual was
so good at woodcraft and survival - not skills one would expect in a
member of an advanced technological society.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:55:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

At 03:10 PM 7/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Be real careful about Spoilers please.

I wasn't going to say anything more about the film other that recommending
it to people.  Trust me on this one folks.. This one's a winner..  True
*terror* as opposed to the *horror* that's beome synomous with slashers or
cgi monsters.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Spacedocks

>> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a large
>> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
>> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
>> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
>> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?
>
>Nope. And there *shouldn't* be the sort of "docking bays" you describe.
>You dock *to* a station, not *in* it.
>
>It's not like there's weather to worry about. And there are lots and
>*lots* of good reasons for *not* wanting ships *inside* a structure.
>To name just one, at least *some* of these ships (*all* of them at
>lower TL's) have *reaction drives*.

Oh, but there is! Radiation surges from solar flares, microasteroidals, and
of course, Trash. Considering docking relative velocities, and the relative
difference between main thrusters and RCS thrusters in power,
dangerousness, etc, that argument doesnt wash well.

>Check out the safety zones for a Shuttle launch. And the stuff they do
>to protect the pad from the exhaust. Things like a *million* gallon
>water deluge system.
>
>And for that matter, notice that seagoing ships do *not* go into
>buildings, they tie up *alongside* docks, or even just anchor "nearby
>(assume a parking orbit).

true, but not a particularly good comparison. Traveller ships have
canonically had all the options available... including internal docks at
the high port if small enough. IMTU, many high ports use a repulsor system
to maneuver the ship into place in the bay... you park outside, and they
bring you in. The bay doors are seldom closed, and the bay is kept in
vaccum, but it provides microasteroidal and radiation protection for doing
exterior work, as well as being a safety net in case you shear your tether
and allows shirtsleeves through much lighter weight crawltubes. Plus, at
launch, they push YOU out... And it is much easier to run the standard data
and power connections.

>Large aircraft don't go into buildings except from protection from bad
>weather and for maintainance.
>
>Sorry, but I just don't buy Star Trek's "Spacedock" and similar things
>in Star Wars. Babylon 5 was kind of on the edge. They *did* allow
>*small* ships inside, but most "parked" and used shuttles.

To a certain extent, the Star Trek "Spacedock" of the movies bugs me, too.
Not for the scale, but for the design which wastes sooooo much space. B5's
bay has a tiny opening, but is primarily for passenger craft and small
cargo lighter. But still uses their own thrust!

Traveller, since HG, has had some repulsor tech... I've had the perfect
reason to force turnover of a PC's ship to a remote control from the
station, too....

IMTU, a typical "Full Size" bay for a high port can hold up to a 5000T
ship... it is a 10KTd bay. Many more diminuitive bays (holding 1 ship 500Td
or smallrer, 1000Td) are used. A- and b-Class High ports with navy bases
might have a 200KTd "Tunnel" orbiting nearby for similar purposes for large
ship repairs... it provides light, micrasteroidal protection, and radiation
protection, and is a fly-through tube with sliding doors at the ends...

Mind you, docking fees vary by type IMTU. Typically,
100d orbits Cr100/week
10d orbits Cr100/first week, Cr15 per extra day
External Soft Dock: Cr 5 per hour. (this assumes running lines and and a tube).
External Hard Dock: Cr100 per day, first week only Cr500
Internal Hard Dock: Cr150 per day, flat rate.
Airdock : Cr500 per day, plus Cr500 for each repressurization

all prices assume 100-500Td Costs tripled for 500-2000Td (two to four per
large bay), and x10 for 2000-5000Td ships. Tubes are generally military use.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Extreme Weather

>In mail you write:
>
>> Some places are so cold, they don't shut the vehicles off at all during the
>> winter. I've seen CO2 "snow" occur NATURALLY. (It's spectacular to watch it
>> fume when the sun rises... but don't go out for more than a few minutes
>> without 2-3 layers of wool over your nose and mouth, and sealed goggles
>> over your eyes.)
>
>Lord, I thought that CO2 "snow" was only supposed to occur in
>Antarctica and Central Siberia in the most extreme conditions!
>
>I still recall my shock when in grade school I saw a photo in my
>geography text. It showed someone in Siberia (during the winter)
>carrying home a *slab* of milk.
>
It would really help other people's (ie, non-alaskans) if the weather
stations weren't at the airports, which get the most even heating of most
areas, and most sit on the edge of a mjor water body. And remember, central
alaska is due east of siberia....

Fairbanks, wher eit occasionally get CO2 snow, also typically gets to the
upper nineties at least once during the summer. No major water bodies to
moderate the climate. Surrounded by mountains on all sides. peak day/night
lenght 20 hours.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:50:51 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

>The 1000-ton Scout tender has an openable bay, which completely contains
>smaller ships, but that's only intended to hold a couple 100-ton
>scout/courier or xboat class ships. I'm not sure if the bay can be
>pressurized at all--again, what purpose would pressure and gravity in the
>bay serve that would justify the expense of an enclosed bay, an airtight
>door, and the volume of oxygen/life support/artificial gravity such a bay
>would require?

Ease of maintenance & Safety. 

Is it that expensive? 

You can pump most of the atmosphere into adjoining sections or tanks, prior to
opening the doors. Cheap.

You can replace lost oxygen by electrolysis of a small amount of water. Nitrogen
you would have to take in tanks I think. [Aside: Is it OK to use gases other
than Nitrogen as the "inert" component of air?]. Your standard life support
should be
able to handle this. Cheap.

Life support - atmosphere recycling - is only required for air that is breathed,
which wont change whether the bay is open or closed. All that is required, above
what you already have, is ducting & heating. Cheap.

You need an enclosed bay - enclosed by hull metal - to protect crew from
micrometeorites and radiation - so no saving to be made here.

Spacedock door mechanisms and seal are cheap (5KCr in GT).

Artificial gravity costs 300 KCr for a 500DT bay. Expensive.

So the only expensive bit is the artificial gravity. If you want to save money
you could use thrusters for gravity during the time you needed it, and dispense
with the artificial gravity.

However, I think you need the grav compensation so that you can manouver safely
with ships in the spacedock. It would be unpleasant if a 100 DT ship came loose
during a manouver. X-boats cannot manouver by themselves.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:54:10 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: RE: Tech question

>I think that the problem may be that on Earth (a 1G field) to get 1
>atmosphere of pressure the atmosphere is how many km high?

So it's a very tall landing bay...

OTOH Have you considered using shrink wrap technology? Cover landing bay door
with high tech version of strong, see through, self-sealing, plastic/rubber
sheeting. You probably need to use a double layer for safety. Ship lands on
sheeting and pushes against it until it lands on the deck. Another sheet is slid
over the door space. First one is released. Presto - ship has docked with no
loss of atmosphere. 

A similar process is used for take off. Lower sheet is reattached to door frame.
Air is pumped out of gap between sheets (leaving a bubble wrapped ship!). Upper
sheet is retracted. Ship departs with no loss of atmoshphere.

You still have a problem with micro-meteorites and radiation though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:12:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Extreme Weather

William F. Hostman wrote:
> 

> It would really help other people's (ie, non-alaskans) if the weather
> stations weren't at the airports, which get the most even heating of most
> areas, and most sit on the edge of a mjor water body. And remember, central
> alaska is due east of siberia....

Plus, for places like Tucson, Arizona, they're in the middle of vast
expanses of black runway, in the flattest part of the city as far from
the mountains as it's possible to get. It's not unusual for our official
temperature to be up to 10 degrees hotter than if measured actually _in_
the city.

Last week we had thunderstorms that flooded several parts of the
city...the airport registered 0.02 inches of rain...

The rain gauge here at the U of A, which is in the central part of the
city, registered 1.78 inches...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:37:38 -0600
From: "Christopher E. Webb" <cwebb@ctos.com>
Subject: Software proposal (longish?)

TMLers:

 Over a year ago on the TML I had proposed writing a program that would
allow users to create, organize, and maintain star systems for Traveller.
I was going to use the program as a programming project for my degree.
Unfortunately, the proposal failed to get an okay, and I had to come up
with something else fairly quickly.

 School is behind me now, and I expect I will have a little more spare time
to work on something in the near future.  So, I am again proposing to do an
application that allows users to build star systems and maintain them.
What I am looking for is a high-level discussion of the features that need
to be included in this project to make it as useful as possible to as many
people as possible (while still keeping the work required manageable for
one person's spare time).  I am a long way from having a testable product
of any type, but I want to see what features are required/desired/useful.

 My main goal is to put together an application that will keep track of an
extensive level of detail on each world/moon in the star systems and
provide some level of larger-scale organization.  Here is a summary of
features I have thought of and/or recall seeing mentioned when I last threw
this proposal out on the list (more-or-less in stream-of-consciousness order):

  1: Decent user interface (as opposed to no UI or a bad UI).
  2: Command line batch capability (for mass production).
  3: Create, organize, edit star systems.
  4: Keep track of lots of detailed information (computed automatically), such
as temperature, surface acceleration, eccentricity of orbit, radius, density
(and all those other things that players may not have much use for, but
provide
a lot of color and/or filler in handouts).  This would incoporate components
from WTH, WBH, and Accrete (and, since I just found out about First In, maybe
components from it -- I ordered a copy at my FLGS Monday & hope to see it by
this weekend).
  5: A higher-level system of organization (sectors, or pocket empires, or
some
such).
  6: Allow different system generation rules, such as canon Traveller, the
adaptation I did of Accrete, 2300AD (I think there's one for it, I just don't
remember it), the alternative Traveller system 
( http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/altWorldGeneration.html ),
and/or First In.
  7: Flexibility in organization: allowing either standard Traveller sector
organization or 3D Cartesian coordinates.
  8: Extensibility: Allowing user-defined "trade codes" that can be manually
set for a given planet (examples from TNE include Ancients' Sites, Xboat
stations, Naval Depots, and so on).
  9: Continuing on the flexbility/extensibility theme, allowing user-defined
allegiances (so one is not set into a particular flavor of Traveller).
 10: The ability to export data to text files of varying formats with varying
degrees of detail.
 11: The ability to import data from text files of varying formats (for
example, a sector listing in standard Traveller 80-column format, or a text
file output from Accrete).
 12: There was also a request that the data format be compatible with
Galactic.
I have not really given Galactic a rigorous scrutiny, but I don't know that
using the Galactic data format will give me the level of detail I want;
allowing data to be imported/exported is a more likely solution to that
request.
 13: On line help.  Context-sensitive help would be a plus.

 Here is a question that I have about a feature I am not sure about:

 Is there a need for referee notes (or some other text blurb(s)) to be
incorporated into the info?

 For those of you wondering about the target platform that this will run on, 
here is a summary of my position on that subject.  I am willing to discuss or
debate these views outside the mailing list, but I don't want to chew up TML
bandwidth on a platform war.  I will include a brief note on my position for
each of these for anyone curious.  These are listed in contingent temporal
order (in other words, barring problems with a given platform, this is the
order of development/porting).

 1: Development in DOS/DOS-window-compatible 32bit DPMI using the TurboVision
TUI.  Why?  I can concentrate on underlying functionality without the learning
curve of the UI interfering.
 2: Port to Linux.  Why?  Because the code will be written in GNU C++; there
is, IIRC, a port of TurboVision to Linux.  There should be a minimal effort to
port.
 3: Port to Win32 console app.  Why?  There were many concerns expressed last
time I proposed this project because I was using a 32bit DPMI, although I have
_never_ had any problem getting this type of application to work in Win95 or
WinNT 4.0.  This port is contingent on my being able to port the TUI into
MicroSoft's flavor of C++ and getting it to work as a console app.
 4: Port to Win32s.  Why?  Because there are a lot of people who want a Windows
native application.  I put it on the bottom of the list because I still don't
do Windows.  (It's one of the many benefits of firmware engineering)

 Once I have a fairly good list of specifications to work with, and some people
who are willing to discuss the specifications at a higher level (off the TML), I
will determine whether the project still looks promising.  I will put a new
spec sheet together and post it at a later date.

 As an aside: Yes, I will want testers eventually.  Also, I plan on releasing
this project as freeware, and I will likely release the source code.

- -Christopher Webb
mailto://cwebb@ctos.com

- --
"What!  Will you never cease prating of laws to us that have swords by our
sides?"
 --Plutarch, Life of Pompey

"You know, silence can be a learned response..."
 -- Dan Brandow

"Or an inflicted condition."
 -- Christopher Webb

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:18:40 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

> I recall a 1970's TV Movie/TV Show, _Fantastic Voyage_ (IIRC). It 
> could have been an inspiration piece for the current _Sliders_
> series - in _Fantastic Voyage_, a group of people are trapped in 
> some kind of dimensional vortex in the Bermuda Triangle, and deal
> with all sorts of societies and worlds in their attempts to get home.

I remember that..the main character was played by the same actor who
later played the main guy in the "War of the Worlds" series.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:28:18 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

Along with needles and incredibly tall structures, it becomes possible to 
construct mobile floating structures, starting with individual buildings (ala 
Divine Intervention) and progressing up to city sized ones as technology 
progresses.  Why anchor your home or office to one dull spot when you can see 
the world, remaining constantly linked to friends, coworkers, and customers 
by advanced transport and communications technology.

Aside from its impact on architecture, I feel that the real impact on cities 
will simply be the result of grav transport.  We have seen a trend in the US 
that as travel becomes easier, more and more people reject an urban existance 
(although there will always be a hard core of urbanites).  I suspect that 
ubiquious grav technology just might accelerate this trend and result in 
"cities" that spread over vast areas like a sort of super suburb.  Many 
worlds will develop relying on gravitic transport form first settlement.  On 
such a world I doubt if the citizens would ever make the sizeable investment 
in roads and other ground transportation systems which have arisen to support 
present day cities on Terra.  Instead they would be free to spread out, yet 
still reside and work a conveniently short time from the amenities of 
advanced civilization.  It is fun to imagine arcologies and gloomy 
mega-cities (hey, admit it, they have their uses for a referee), but I 
imagine that a typical city on an advanced Imperial world might actually be 
more rural or parklike than we would imagine today.
Any comments?  

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:44:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities 

> > I recall a 1970's TV Movie/TV Show, _Fantastic Voyage_ (IIRC). It 
> > could have been an inspiration piece for the current _Sliders_
> > series - in _Fantastic Voyage_, a group of people are trapped in 
> > some kind of dimensional vortex in the Bermuda Triangle, and deal
> > with all sorts of societies and worlds in their attempts to get home.
> 
> I remember that..the main character was played by the same actor who
> later played the main guy in the "War of the Worlds" series.

Actually, he was a secondary character, but still the same old peacenik that he played in WOTW.

FWIW, I actually *liked* the last season of WOTW, but they left a *LOT* of loose ends when they stopped production.  The alien's bio-based tech was *COOL*.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:12:31 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.

NOW I'm jealous :)
Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kurt
> Feltenberger
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 8:22 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.
> 
> 
> At 08:31 AM 7/14/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >As Chris Knight said at the BayCon sneak peak trailer "The 
> actress (I forget
> >her name unfortunately) that plays the lead needs to win the 
> Academy Award
> >at least".  Unlike Doug, I haven't had a chance to see the movie 
> yet, but I
> >can't wait to.  I really like your description Doug :)
> >
> >Jesse
> >
> >p.s.  Go to their website at:  www.blairwitch.com   It's a wee 
> bit slow [hvy
> >sarcasm] for 33.6 users (like me at home) unfortunately...
> 
> The site -is- slow.  I work for an ISP and have over 45Mbits of bandwidth
> at our office site.  It crawled from page to page.
> 
> 
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger
> 
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
>    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
>      ~Stephen Decatur
> 
> 
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:11:16 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: G:T Starports Playtesting

I just started looking at the G:T Starports playtest board, and couldn't
find an important datum:

What's the deadline?

Anyone who has been participating in the playtest, please let me
know....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #860
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 861



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re Docking
Trav software
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re Electricity
re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging 
Re: tech question
re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: Surviving Life-support Failure
Re: Versions
Re: tech question 
Re: Software proposal (longish?) 
WOTW: (was: Re: Grav-influenced cities)
Re: WOTW: (was: Re: Grav-influenced cities) 
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: G:T Starports Playtesting
Re: tech question
Re : Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:59:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Docking

>You can replace lost oxygen by electrolysis of a small amount of water.
>Nitrogen
>you would have to take in tanks I think. [Aside: Is it OK to use gases other
>than Nitrogen as the "inert" component of air?]. Your standard life support
>should be
>able to handle this. Cheap.
>
>Life support - atmosphere recycling - is only required for air that is
>breathed,
>which wont change whether the bay is open or closed. All that is required,
>above
>what you already have, is ducting & heating. Cheap.

Helium is currently used by deep divers... Most of the Noble gasses (the
rightmost collumn of the Periodic Table) are breathable in low enough
partial pressures.

Oxy-Helium runs O2 at IIRC about 1psi PPO2, and up to 30 or 40 PSI PPHe,
depth dependant, again IIRC. Helps to shorten decompress times, as the
nitrogen in the system is limited to what you carry in inside the
bloodstream and tissues. prebreathing is used.

Nearly Pure o2 at levels of 2 PSI is fairly safe to breath; provided enough
CO2 is present to regulate breathing.... NASA does it almost every
spacewalk.

To be honest, Recycling only uses as much o2 as is consumed, assuming of
course a properly designed system, but needs enough machinery to handle the
total volume in a steady changeover. Plus, if you plan to reuse the bay
volume of atmosphere, sufficient pumping equipment to depressurize to near
vaccum, which is best handled by treating it all as habitable volume.

Which is why, IMTU, most "internal" docking bays are not pressurized. Nor,
for that matter, are they equipped with a "Down" direction... they are
simply enclosed berths so that ships can be hooked up with less "durable"
(in the sense of armoring to withstand solar wind and orbital debris) (and
also thus less expensive) connections and tubes. It also allows workers to
have more and better lighting, and have the use of construction arms (much
like the shuttle's) for moving big parts. Plus, I allow the ships to go to
base-provided power for internal LS, computers and gravitics, as well as
external consumeables.

Just for reference, IMTU, a private bay can be purchased at Regina SkyPort
in the annex for roughly 1MCr for a 1KTd bay... with an annual cost of KCr
1 for "Association and Control Fees", plus Cr1 Air tax per week per person
going to the main station. They simply build a module, and tack it on to
the "String". Works much like a condo association. Court Duke Hamford's is
a 1000 ton bay, in a 1100 ton box, with a public corridor through it... and
in the bay space, he has installed a "Hab Module" of 100 Td, and it's own
life support, commo, and computers, and a half dozen staterooms. Plus his
400Td "yacht" ( Type XT modified Jump-6 Experimental) and (when they are in
Regina) Xen's Type S. It's crowded, and uses a 50T repulsor bay for docking
control (from the station's part, controlled either from the hab module
(when manned) or "String Docking Control".


One other benefit of enclosed docks: crooks neet to get into the bay to
gain access to the ship. Something which Starport security takes a dim view
of...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:06:07 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Trav software

Hello,
I like the thought of your proposal. W/out getting into platform silliness
either, I would request that you consider writing it for a Unix/Linux curses
environment. This is due to the fact that it's far easier for me to then
port it to odd ball OS's - such as MacOS (currently use) or Amiga Dos (used
to use). This is just about as least a common denominator as you can get and
still have acceptable functionality. WIN32 in all it's forms, OTOH, has some
really nasty assumptions when porting time comes - at random I'll simply
mention big vs little endian...

I'll also post this to the list so that if anything I'm not aware of exists
to make this not true, _someone_ will, uhm... , "let me know"

Of course this _is_ all only my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for
it...  ;')

Just a thought.

Thanks,

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:11:47 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

>> I recall a 1970's TV Movie/TV Show, _Fantastic Voyage_ (IIRC). It
>> could have been an inspiration piece for the current _Sliders_
>> series - in _Fantastic Voyage_, a group of people are trapped in
>> some kind of dimensional vortex in the Bermuda Triangle, and deal
>> with all sorts of societies and worlds in their attempts to get home.
>
>I remember that..the main character was played by the same actor who
>later played the main guy in the "War of the Worlds" series.

Gee I thought the main guy was the actor who played Cornelus the Ape in
Planet of the Apes. :)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:20:44 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

>It is fun to imagine arcologies and gloomy
>mega-cities (hey, admit it, they have their uses for a referee), but I
>imagine that a typical city on an advanced Imperial world might actually be
>more rural or parklike than we would imagine today.
>Any comments?

On my webpage I have a description of life in Atora, capital of Regina.
There's also a description of the Starport. None of it is canon, though I
don't think any of it downright violates canon either. Yes I realize
contra-grav belts are GTL12 and Regina is GTL10, but I would expect such
small, useful devices to be imported, just as electronics are typically sold
to countries of Earth that cannot manufacture them.

http://members.home.net/carlino/lifein.htm

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:17:58 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re Electricity

> From: "William F. Hostman" 
> I live in Alaska, 
...
> 
> Some places are so cold, they don't shut the vehicles off at all during
the
> winter. I've seen CO2 "snow" occur NATURALLY. 

Sorry, no-one _lives_ in a place where CO2 snow occurs naturally.  The word
is _exists_, surely.

OBTRAV:  Whenever I generate a PC for myself I always specify they come
from somewhere warm, preferably tropical.  This is because I really hate
cold weather, even of the rather mild kind we get here.  As a result my
'fantasy' alter-ego tends to hang about where it's warm, and moan and gripe
when it's cold.  

Combat Environment suits are a really good thing in cold climates, though. 
I allow a civilian version, that's not armoured and lacks the chameleon
option.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:35:32 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

> From: SD Mooney 
> shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
> >  Frontier Wars with the Imperium are a sound investment in our future,
not
> >a simple expense. Of course, we also don't get paved like you clowns :)
> 
> We decided to take the wise decision and play a long term game; sadly, we
> could do with advance information when you next plan a Frontier War as a
> distraction...

We Vargr would like that information too, so we can sell it to the
Imperium.

Besides, we're the only ones who have actually beaten the Imperium.  The
Sollies were beaten, and the Joes have only had stalemates, but _we_ won
the Julian War!  Nyah nyah!

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:21:37 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

Alan Bradley wrote:
> 
> > From: SD Mooney
> > shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
> > >  Frontier Wars with the Imperium are a sound investment in our future,
> not
> > >a simple expense. Of course, we also don't get paved like you clowns :)
> >
> > We decided to take the wise decision and play a long term game; sadly, we
> > could do with advance information when you next plan a Frontier War as a
> > distraction...
> 
> We Vargr would like that information too, so we can sell it to the
> Imperium.
> 
> Besides, we're the only ones who have actually beaten the Imperium.  The
> Sollies were beaten, and the Joes have only had stalemates, but _we_ won
> the Julian War!  Nyah nyah!

So sorry to contradict my fine fuzzy colleague, but the only sophonts
who have decisively beaten the Impies have been the Impies themselves. 
I find it amusing that they were so easily manipulated into beginning a
multi-sided civil war, with each side so evenly matched that there could
be no true victor.  The Solomani scarcely needed any manipulation at all
to dive on in and attempt to "retake" their so-called birthright (for
all the good it did them...).

And whoever the ...uh... sophont was that manipulated the Impies into
developing Virus was truly _brilliant_!  This one development (along
with the "Empress Wave") brought down nearly _all_ interstellar
cultures, with _one_ major exception....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:41:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging 

> Alan Bradley wrote:
> And whoever the ...uh... sophont was that manipulated the Impies into
> developing Virus was truly _brilliant_!  This one development (along
> with the "Empress Wave") brought down nearly _all_ interstellar
> cultures, with _one_ major exception....

Two.  The Regency survived as well, relatively unscathed.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:16:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: tech question

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: tech question
...
>I'm sure it'd be some *other* combination of well-meaning but ignorant
>citizens trying to "help" that'd cause the destruction of the domed
>city on the vacuum world. But it'd be just as inevitable. 
>
>The biggest danger to *any* support system is the ignorance of the
>general populace. You have to do your best to make sure that the
>well-mening are never in a position to do something "helpful".

 I seem to vaguely recall a story (H. Beam Piper?) called "Blowups Happen"?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:16:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
...
>>  Frontier Wars with the Imperium are a sound investment in our future, not
>>a simple expense. Of course, we also don't get paved like you clowns :)
>
>We decided to take the wise decision and play a long term game; sadly, we
>could do with advance information when you next plan a Frontier War as a
>distraction...

  Lose most of the Sphere to the Impies (who actually are made to look 
attractive compared to you vermin, except that they're adjacent to us),
and then have Terra devastated and occupied (some master race...) - fine,
the Imps are now confident that you're halfwits and economically crippled
to boot; so what do you do for an encore?

  But wait - we're already supposed to know your answer :>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:17:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Surviving Life-support Failure

>From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>Subject: Re: Surviving Life-support Failure
...
>So, when is the BC Traveller Collective meeting this year? Next week looks
>good for me.

  The week after is best for me (or after August 13th...), but I can try to
work around anything that's a weekend or evening. The Lotusland chapter of
the Traveller Socialist Conspiracy looks forward to the new Twelve Month
Plan for TML Agit-prop, O Illustrious Chairperson!

  <fnord?>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:31:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Versions

>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>Subject: Re: Versions
...
>If the Zhodani ally with the pinkie-supremacists, they will be making a big
>mistake.  We Vargr know who our enemies are.  Could the Zhodani withstand
>the combined strength of the Vargr _and_ the Imperium?

  Isn't "combined Vargr" an oxymoron? :)  And we don't doubt that the 
Vargr know who their enemies are - it explains all the in-fighting...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:39:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: tech question 

> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >Subject: Re: tech question
> ...
> >I'm sure it'd be some *other* combination of well-meaning but ignorant
> >citizens trying to "help" that'd cause the destruction of the domed
> >city on the vacuum world. But it'd be just as inevitable. 
> >
> >The biggest danger to *any* support system is the ignorance of the
> >general populace. You have to do your best to make sure that the
> >well-mening are never in a position to do something "helpful".
> 
>  I seem to vaguely recall a story (H. Beam Piper?) called "Blowups Happen"?
> 

Heinlein did "Blowups Happen".

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:04:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

>  My main goal is to put together an application that will keep track of an
> extensive level of detail on each world/moon in the star systems and
> provide some level of larger-scale organization.  Here is a summary of
> features I have thought of and/or recall seeing mentioned when I last threw
> this proposal out on the list (more-or-less in stream-of-consciousness order):
> 
>   1: Decent user interface (as opposed to no UI or a bad UI).

This is a Good Thing.  The best tools are hard to deal with if they have a 
bad UI.

>   2: Command line batch capability (for mass production).

Definitely nice to have.

>   3: Create, organize, edit star systems.

The star system data file should be something like Galactic or Traveller 
Tools format.  Personally, I prefer the Traveller Tools format.  No offense, 
Jim.

>   4: Keep track of lots of detailed information (computed automatically), such
> as temperature, surface acceleration, eccentricity of orbit, radius, density
> (and all those other things that players may not have much use for, but
> provide
> a lot of color and/or filler in handouts).  This would incoporate components
> from WTH, WBH, and Accrete (and, since I just found out about First In, maybe
> components from it -- I ordered a copy at my FLGS Monday & hope to see it by
> this weekend).

This could be done by generating system files for each occupied hex in the 
sector map.

>   5: A higher-level system of organization (sectors, or pocket empires, or
> some such).

Sector files would be good enough.  You can put an index file of all 
created/converted sectors as a seperate file, so if you wanna view the next 
subsector spinward, and it's in another charted sector, the index will find 
the right sector.

>   6: Allow different system generation rules, such as canon Traveller, the
> adaptation I did of Accrete, 2300AD (I think there's one for it, I just don't
> remember it), the alternative Traveller system 
> ( http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/altWorldGeneration.html ),
> and/or First In.

I'm absolutely 100% for the alternate generation rules that Joe's got at the 
Missouri Archive.  That stuff just makes *sense* to me.

>   7: Flexibility in organization: allowing either standard Traveller sector
> organization or 3D Cartesian coordinates.

I'm not so worried about 3D as I am standard traveller format.

>   8: Extensibility: Allowing user-defined "trade codes" that can be manually
> set for a given planet (examples from TNE include Ancients' Sites, Xboat
> stations, Naval Depots, and so on).

<nod>

>   9: Continuing on the flexbility/extensibility theme, allowing user-defined
> allegiances (so one is not set into a particular flavor of Traveller).

This can be done in the master utility configuration file either folded 
directly in, or as one of the menu choices to load up.

>  10: The ability to export data to text files of varying formats with varying
> degrees of detail.

Absolutely a must.

>  11: The ability to import data from text files of varying formats (for
> example, a sector listing in standard Traveller 80-column format, or a text
> file output from Accrete).
>  12: There was also a request that the data format be compatible with
> Galactic.

This would be an extension of #11.

> I have not really given Galactic a rigorous scrutiny, but I don't know that
> using the Galactic data format will give me the level of detail I want;
> allowing data to be imported/exported is a more likely solution to that
> request.

Traveller Tools compatibility would be a Good Thing as well as the GEnie file 
format, which is pretty close to TravTools.

>  13: On line help.  Context-sensitive help would be a plus.
> 
>  Here is a question that I have about a feature I am not sure about:
> 
>  Is there a need for referee notes (or some other text blurb(s)) to be
> incorporated into the info?

Depends.  I like notes on what's going on, myself.  You can tie this into the 
regular system files on an occupied hex basis.
 
>  For those of you wondering about the target platform that this will run on, 
> here is a summary of my position on that subject.  I am willing to discuss or
> debate these views outside the mailing list, but I don't want to chew up TML
> bandwidth on a platform war.  I will include a brief note on my position for
> each of these for anyone curious.  These are listed in contingent temporal
> order (in other words, barring problems with a given platform, this is the
> order of development/porting).
> 
>  1: Development in DOS/DOS-window-compatible 32bit DPMI using the TurboVision
> TUI.  Why?  I can concentrate on underlying functionality without the learning
> curve of the UI interfering.
>  2: Port to Linux.  Why?  Because the code will be written in GNU C++; there
> is, IIRC, a port of TurboVision to Linux.  There should be a minimal effort to
> port.

Yeah, there's a TV port of Linux already in place.  It's part of the Free 
Pascal Compiler project.  I haven't had the chance to play with it much yet...

>  4: Port to Win32s.  Why?  Because there are a lot of people who want a
> Windows
> native application.  I put it on the bottom of the list because I still don't
> do Windows.  (It's one of the many benefits of firmware engineering)

<chuckle>
 
>  Once I have a fairly good list of specifications to work with, and some
> people
> who are willing to discuss the specifications at a higher level (off the
> TML), I
> will determine whether the project still looks promising.  I will put a new
> spec sheet together and post it at a later date.

Shall I start a list at Onelist for this?
 
>  As an aside: Yes, I will want testers eventually.  Also, I plan on releasing
> this project as freeware, and I will likely release the source code.

Definitely sign me up for it when it's ready to port to Linux.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:21:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: WOTW: (was: Re: Grav-influenced cities)

At 09:44 PM 7/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

>FWIW, I actually *liked* the last season of WOTW, but they left a *LOT* of 
>loose ends when they stopped production.  The alien's bio-based tech was 
>*COOL*.

At the last TimeCon Kirsten and I worked, we had Richard Chaves (Colonel
Ironhorse) as a guest.  For the staff party at the end of the Con, he
brought the tape made for the crew Christmas party.

The tape opened with a pretty wreath of Holly, with the alien hand reaching
over ala' the opening credit sequence with the Earth.  It went downhill
from there, with bloopers and deliberate mistakes.

The absolute best one was Ironhorse in a tree, trying to throw a grappling
hook.  They evidently went through a forty takes, and finally, after the
hook falls back and hits him, Chaves looks right into the camera and says:

"*This* is what it's like to be an adventurous M*therf**ker!"

Almost as good as the wind-up StarFury in the B5 tape...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html 

"In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." 
           -Helmuth von Moltke, Imperial German Army

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:01:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: WOTW: (was: Re: Grav-influenced cities) 

> At the last TimeCon Kirsten and I worked, we had Richard Chaves (Colonel
> Ironhorse) as a guest.  For the staff party at the end of the Con, he
> brought the tape made for the crew Christmas party.
> 
> The tape opened with a pretty wreath of Holly, with the alien hand reaching
> over ala' the opening credit sequence with the Earth.  It went downhill
> from there, with bloopers and deliberate mistakes.
> 
> The absolute best one was Ironhorse in a tree, trying to throw a grappling
> hook.  They evidently went through a forty takes, and finally, after the
> hook falls back and hits him, Chaves looks right into the camera and says:
> 
> "*This* is what it's like to be an adventurous M*therf**ker!"

Chaves is a damned good actor.  Too bad he keeps getting typecast.
 
> Almost as good as the wind-up StarFury in the B5 tape...

I *GOTTA* start hitting more (and *BETTER*) cons!!!

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:32:31 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

> Along with needles and incredibly tall structures, it becomes possible to 
> construct mobile floating structures, starting with individual buildings (ala 
> Divine Intervention) and progressing up to city sized ones as technology 
> progresses.  Why anchor your home or office to one dull spot when you can see 
> the world, remaining constantly linked to friends, coworkers, and customers 
> by advanced transport and communications technology.


There's an old sci-fi book called "A Hostage for Hinterland" by Arsen
Darnay, which has a series of cities like this all hovering above ground
via 'gravitrons'.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:33:55 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

> FWIW, I actually *liked* the last season of WOTW, but they left a *LOT* of loose ends when they stopped
> production.  The alien's bio-based tech was *COOL*.
> 

Speaking of which, please forgive my ignorance, but are there any
traveller races devoted exclusively towards Biotech?  And if so, what
are some examples?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:03:46 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Starports Playtesting

I was curious as to the "quality" of the material...I don't subscribe to 
Pyramid...How does anyone rate the material? Great book like Frat trader? :)

Mike


>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>To: "traveller@lists.imagiconline.com" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
>Subject: G:T Starports Playtesting
>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:11:16 -0500
>
>I just started looking at the G:T Starports playtest board, and couldn't
>find an important datum:
>
>What's the deadline?
>
>Anyone who has been participating in the playtest, please let me
>know....
>
>--
>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:16:10 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >Subject: Re: tech question
> ...
> >I'm sure it'd be some *other* combination of well-meaning but ignorant
> >citizens trying to "help" that'd cause the destruction of the domed
> >city on the vacuum world. But it'd be just as inevitable.
> >
> >The biggest danger to *any* support system is the ignorance of the
> >general populace. You have to do your best to make sure that the
> >well-mening are never in a position to do something "helpful".
> 
>  I seem to vaguely recall a story (H. Beam Piper?) called "Blowups Happen"?

In the 1952 copy of "The Astounding Science Fiction Anthology", edited
by John W. Campbell Jr, The first story listed is "Blow-ups Happen" by
Robert A. Heinlein.  The edition of this story as it appears in this
book, is from the original magazine story written with info based on
what was known in 1939.  Later versions were edited to update them to
current knowledge.

This story was first published in 1940.

- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:15:50 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> If we didn't breathe oxygen we'd feel much the same about it. It's a
> *very* reactive gas, only biological activity (involving some pretty
> clever catalytic dodges) allows it to exist in the atmosphere for
> significant periods of time.

Fluorine makes oxygen look rather tame, Leonard. Check your CRC Handbook
or look at the history of fluorine chemistry.
Moissan who eventually isolated the stuff, after some *heavy duty*
electrolysis got the Nobel in Chemistry for his effort.
Most of his predecessors who attempted what he did were either seriously
injured or killed!

Photosynthesis is energetically expensive. The analogous process for
fluorine synthesis would be even worse, requiring some intriguing
biochemistry (if possible at all).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #861
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 862



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: tech question
Re: Software proposal (longish?) 
First In Software
Re: GT: Starports Playtesting
Re : Grav-influenced cities
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Versions
RE: tech question
Re : Pressurising the docking bay (was re : docking)
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Electricity
Re: tech question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:20:21 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: tech question

John Buston wrote :-
> You can replace lost oxygen by electrolysis of a small amount of water. Nitrogen
> you would have to take in tanks I think. [Aside: Is it OK to use gases other
> than Nitrogen as the "inert" component of air?]

The noble gases would be an expensive alternative to nitrogen.
I would not use these in a shirtsleeves environment. Xenon acts as a
general anaesthetic with partial pressures in excess of 0.7 atmospheres
and the other members of this family may have similar problems.

Do what the deep sea divers do and go with helium-oxygen mixtures, or
just use air, it's cheap.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 13:43:14 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

> >  My main goal is to put together an application that will keep track of an
> > extensive level of detail on each world/moon in the star systems and
> > provide some level of larger-scale organization.  Here is a summary of
> > features I have thought of and/or recall seeing mentioned when I last threw
> > this proposal out on the list (more-or-less in stream-of-consciousness order):

I wish you the best of luck. I am currently working on a similar project, so I know 
from experience how challenging your feature list is. For the record, if you manage to 
pull it off, your package will be more impressive than my own. I made some tough 
decisions on what would/would not be added - in the interest of simplicity.

Also - your system appears to be standard Traveller based, while mine is based on GURPS 
Traveller First In.

Some advice - feel free to take it or leave it...
  1) Have your own data format - but import/export others. Trying to shoehorn in your 
own data structures into an existing format almost never works - you place limitations 
on yourself. But the ability to read TravTools or Galactics files is a great boon to 
swing users to your product :)
  2) Start small, but from day one build your program to be extendable. Its much easier 
to debug. Start with the core rules first, then add the rest. If you try to do the 
whole works at once, chances are you'll never finish.
  3) The platform wars - here's the icky one. In all the years I've been a programmer, 
this is one of the nastiest elements of programming. Here's my views
   a) If you're in it solely for money, go Windows. I am not a microserf, but I know 
the market shares. If you're interested in solely a profit margin, the Win32 platform 
is where the big bucks are.
   b) If you're writing for yourself and are going to share it with others - then the 
choice is simple - use the system that you prefer. If you're giving your stuff away, 
_no one_ has the right to complain about "Why isn't this supported" (a pet peeve of 
mine).
   c) Consider cross-platform. You mentioned TurboVision - I'm not familiar with that 
product. Someone else mentioned Curses. I myself use Java. But a warning - to truly 
write cross-platform, using any of these techniques, requires a great deal of 
discipline. You can't just write in a cross platform language/environment - you also 
have to follow certain techniques. Otherwise, you won't really reach your goals.

I hope the previous stuff doesn't sound egotistical - I'm only offering advice. Take it 
or leave it.


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 13:56:31 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: First In Software

As soon as I posted my reply to a topic about software, I got a request asking about 
the software I am working on. So I thought I'd post it to the list...

I'm working on a program dealing with GURPS First In system generation. Here's the 
specifics (* means finished)

  Java 1.2.1 based for cross-platform purposes.
  *Generates a complete sector: stars, planets, moons and all.
  *Includes all First In data planetary data, including cultural.
  *Every object is editable, and can have notes attached to them.
  *Command line mode for batch generation (not editing).
  Graphical UI (Swing based) to allow editing. (about half done).
  *Native file format based on Object Serialization
  Can convert to/from standard Traveller UWPs (convert to is done).
  Export: Text & HTML (GURPS or Standard). Plans for TravTools and Galactic.
  Import: Text (Standard). Plans for TravTools and Galactic.
  Operates as both an applet and an applecation.
  *Extendible architecture based on Java Interfaces.

Some people may wish to know when this is going to be released. Well, Steve Jackson 
Games has a pretty tight reign on their properties (and I think this is a Good Thing 
(tm)), and I will not be able to release until I get their permission (which I will not 
attempt to get, until its done). So, I can't offer a real timetable.

However, I will probibly be looking for beta testers here Real Soon (tm), so if you 
have access to a Java 1.2 VM and are interested, please let me know.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                           |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - www.truserve.com/~igor/ - AOL IM: Iowa Akins |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/ - AOL IM: CMS AndyA    |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+      |
|       vi+ da+                                                          |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+        |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                               |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:55:59 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Starports Playtesting

> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:11:16 -0500
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: G:T Starports Playtesting
> 
> I just started looking at the G:T Starports playtest board, and couldn't
> find an important datum:
> 
> What's the deadline?

Best I can tell, there isn't one (yet). The manuscript has been submitted,
but the playtest board is still open for comments. There has not been a
general announcement on the status of GT: Starports in weeks. It is
possible that the timeline has been extended, but with GURPS Space 3/e and
GURPS Traveller 2/e both in production I doubt Loren has had much time to
spend on it. Look for more information in the next couple of weeks.

Recommend that you go ahead and post your feedback to the board, *after*
reading the comments that have already been submitted (yes, I realize what
a pain this is -- I'm only halfway through the 800+ messages on G:Space 3/e
myself). The authors will probably still be able to incorporate what you
post.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:00:42 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Grav-influenced cities

<factoid>
Part of the tech level chart from MT Ref's Companion looks like this :- 
10 Gravitic supported structures...
13 Non-mobile gravitic cities.
14 Mobile gravitic cities.
</factoid>

With cheap, small fusion power plants, every family could roam a planet
in their almost self-sufficient grav home (now that could be an ATC
nightmare!).
	The factors that will determine 'centralised' vs. 'scattered'
population distributions include : attitude to the environment, the
level of government control over the citizenry, whether individuality or
group behaviour is valued more highly, cost, etc.
	Economics and sophontology become more important than technological
capacity per se (at Average Stellar+ tech levels things are relatively
homogenous in the environmental control sweepstakes).

Hmm....
Would someone be interested in starting a 'Sophontology 101' discussion?
(a.k.a. 'Cultural Development for Dummies'??)
For example, Glenn Grant mentioned he had written some interesting
anthropological material at the beginning of the year.

Come on, it's time for the resident social scientists to educate the
unenlightened masses! You know you want to...

More signal, less noise on the TML!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
[Yeah, I know I should finish off the Xenobio stuff ; I'm working on
it].

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:55:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> The big one could be bad. But LA, like NYC is generally ignorant of
>> their biggest vulnerability. Water. They have *no* local sources worth
>> mentioning. They both get their drinking water from *hundreds* of miles
>> away (Northern CA and the Colorado River for LA, the Catskills for NYC).
>
> Actually, NYC has this honking big river right next to it. There are water
> treatment plants online that already pull in Hudson river water (which
> contrary to popular belief isn't actually all that polluted...the PCB's that
> GE dumped in there have been sequestered deep in the sediments at the bottom
> for many years. You can even eat the fish now. ;-) We had a drought emergency
> one of the years I was living there, and they started serving up Hudson 
> water.
> It'll be tight, but there'll be water. There are also large reservoirs just
> north of the city.

And without those reservoir, the treatment plants wouldn't be adequate,
would they?

BTW, they find anything "interesting" in the old water tunnels when
they drained them? Or is that still a ways off yet?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:57:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> At 04:34 AM 7/14/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>>Dynamite (or let an "unfortunate" earthquake take them out) a couple
>>of pipelines in southern California[1]. And suddenly Los Angeles will be
>>stuck with a supply of water that can't last more than a couple of
>>*days*. And no way to get more in time.
>
>>[1] as I understand it, there's one from Northern California, and
>>there's the one that carries water from the Colorado. Without them, LA
>>can't meet it's *emergency* needs, much less anything else.
>
> Let them drink swimming pool water.
>
> <Rant>
>
> The inhabitants of Los Angeles have spent the last sixty years denying that
> the live in a desert, and assuming that every drop of water west of the
> Rocky Mountains is their's by some divine right.  A few years back during a
> severe drought, they refused to enforce a ban on new recreational water
> works construction (swimming pools, fountains.)  Los Angeles' mania for
> water in the desert almost killed Mono Lake, and they've tried to drain
> Northern California's wetlands on more the one occasion. (Nuke the
> Peripheral Canal!)
>
> You live in a desert.  Get used to it.
>
> </Rant>

*They* live in a desert. I live in Oregon, thank you very much. Within
sight of the Columbia River. And I recall that at least once, there was
an attempt by California to steal *that*!

I've lived in much drier areas too. Eastern Washington, and some
camping in Central Washington. Lot's of *weird* terrain mixes. Sand
dunes and sagebrush, right on up to the edge of a meadow that depends
on a stream (to give just one example).

> ObTrav: Water wars and water right fights are a prominent part of our
> history.  Some very messy little wars could break out on developing worlds
> over access to and use of scare potable water resources.

Given fusion power, water reclamation will be a lot easier. 

The funny thing is, it's the world's with *breathable* air that'll have
the worst water problems. Anybody in a closed environment, or even
merely a protective suit and breathing mask is going to be recovering
exhaled water and perspiration as a matter of course. And unless y\they
grow their food locally, they'll actually wind up with a *surplus* of
water:

	"food" + O2 -> H2O + CO2

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:03:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> At 04:43 AM 7/14/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>>The big one could be bad. But LA, like NYC is generally ignorant of
>>their biggest vulnerability. Water. They have *no* local sources worth
>>mentioning. They both get their drinking water from *hundreds* of miles
>>away (Northern CA and the Colorado River for LA, the Catskills for NYC).
>
> Shh... don't tell them that.
>
> Douglas Berry
> Chairman, Nuke SoCal Till it Glows Committee
> dberry@hooked.net

No need to nuke them. That'd ruin what's left of the local ecology.
Instead, just block couple of pipes and a canal and don't let them
repair them.

I'd be *really* interested to see what LA might look like if they were
*forced* to use the landscaping laws that are common in places like
Arizona. 

Basicly, you landscape with *native* plants. And use minimal amounts of
drip irrigation if needed.

The only places you see large expanses of grass are either *old*, or
set up for sports fields. And I understand that they pay some *large*
usage fees for the *privelege* of maintaining these alien ecosystems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:58:24 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Versions

At 12:31 AM 7/15/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>>Subject: Re: Versions
>...
>>If the Zhodani ally with the pinkie-supremacists, they will be making a big
>>mistake.  We Vargr know who our enemies are.  Could the Zhodani withstand
>>the combined strength of the Vargr _and_ the Imperium?
>
>  Isn't "combined Vargr" an oxymoron? :)  And we don't doubt that the 
>Vargr know who their enemies are - it explains all the in-fighting...
>
<From A Scout/ Merchant/ Explorer Vargr Named Goghueghz, Translated to Anglic>
        Ahem.
        It is this very level of disinformation spread by you lesser races
that irritates we Chosen Ones to action.  That the Imperials seek to elevate
their self-esteem by denegrating the fine society that we have forged for
ourselves is telling of thier own self-confidence.
        The entire idea that a non-charismatic leader can pull you around by
your little pink snouts because of some *un-earned* and totally contrived
title is dazzling.  The anarchy you percieve within our borders is the
simple, on-going re-alignment of a healthy and vibrant culture that changes
as the times do.  Those worthy of being followed, lead.  Those not worthy,
follow.  
        These conditions are not constant, entrenched and stagnant.  The
very nature of the Galaxy in which we live *mandates* change, and it is only
foolish to believe that a leader can lead because his sire could.  Leaders
and followers may swap places if the tides of unfolding history require it.
        Your Admiral-turned-Emperor Plankwell was a Vargr spirit in his
understanding of this.  You cherish his boldness and foreward thinking in
understanding this very ideal.  Yet within us, you call it belittling names.
You are surprised when we act to correct you, thinking it is still more
characteristic of the "anarchy" you see in our great state.  Most of you do
not even understand what "anarchy" really means.
        Look inside yourselves for the causes of the arrival of Corsair
above your planet.  Not within us.
        Or I'll personally carpet bomb your pink-stink home town.
<...END TRANSLATED TRANSMISSION>

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:06:04 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question

Who has to look back to the good old days, in Victoria gas supplies were off
for days when the sole supplier had an explosion in its gas generating
plant.

Then just last year the power grid in I  think Aukland NewZealand failed
completely power apparently stayed off for days.

I dont think anyone died as a result of the failures, though several were
killed in the gas explosion. But the dislocation was enormous with losses
estimated in the billions of dollars.

How about this for a problem for the budding merchants, works especially
well on worlds with monopoly types of power supplies. The power grid fails
and cannot be restored. Luckily our intrepid heroes have this nice fusion
power plant in their ship.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:03:23 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Pressurising the docking bay (was re : docking)

Bill Hostman wrote :-
> Oxy-Helium runs O2 at IIRC about 1psi PPO2, and up to 30 or 40 PSI PPHe,
> depth dependant, again IIRC.

1 atmosphere pressure is approximately 14.5psi.
Normal air is approximately 21% oxygen - the partial pressure of oxygen
is therefore 2.9psi.

Gas mixtures containing less than 2psi of oxygen will cause marked
hyperventilation (Resting ventilation is about 7L/min at 2.9psi partial
pressure of oxygen. The depth of ventilation *doubles* with every 0.1psi
fall in the partial pressure of oxygen!).

The aims with heli-ox or (any gas mixture, I guess) are to :-
maintain normoxia, minimise the work of breathing and prevent inert gas
narcosis, oxygen toxicity or the 'bends'.

So with really deep dives you can get to the stage where the fraction of
inspired oxygen is 1% - but its partial pressure is still about 3 psi.

Interestingly, hydrogen has been suggested as an alternate inert gas for
really deep diving (obviously oxygen is a very small percentage of the
gas mixture!).

> Nearly Pure o2 at levels of 2 PSI is fairly safe to breath; provided enough
> CO2 is present to regulate breathing.... NASA does it almost every
> spacewalk.
> 

You don't need to rebreathe CO2 to regulate breathing. The carbon
dioxide and oxygen carried in your arterial blood do the job very nicely
(removing all the CO2 from your blood as it passed through the lung
would do terrible things to blood pH).

Space shuttle EVA suits are pressurised to 4.3psi (~1/3 atm) of 100%
oxygen.

With regard to oxygen toxicity, I posted some information earlier :-
> Subject:  Re : Xenobiology 101 : Body plans and some miscellany
>    Date:  Tue, 06 Jul 1999 13:36:07 +1000
>    From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
>      To: TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> 
under the header above.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:26:39 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

>    c) Consider cross-platform. You mentioned TurboVision - I'm not familiar with that 
> product. Someone else mentioned Curses. I myself use Java. But a warning - to truly 
> write cross-platform, using any of these techniques, requires a great deal of 
> discipline. You can't just write in a cross platform language/environment - you also 
> have to follow certain techniques. Otherwise, you won't really reach your goals.
> 

From all my run-ins with Java, I have learned to hate it.  Even Windows
95 is less buggy and runs faster.  We unfortunately use a Java-based
records system on site at HP Medical and man is it slow sometimes..and
prone to really flaky errors.  

As for browsers and java, it seems to work a little better but is still
slow to load.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:09:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> In mail you write:
>
>>More likely, as I see it is that there will be *local* grids. Inside
>>large buildings, you'd tie the generators together so that excess
>>demand in one area can be met from slack in another area. Add some
>>decent batteries (says sodium sulfur, or some of the new reversible
>>fuel cells) and you can store power during slack times for use during
>>peak load times. This lets you get by with smaller generators.
>
>>For residential use, I can see most homes in a village on a colony
>>having their own generator & batteries. But at some point somebody is
>>going to have excess capacity at a time when a neighbor needs extra.
>>And it'll be simpler to run a tieline to Charlie and make some sort of
>>deal.
>
>>I expect this sort of thing would evolve into a sort of power co-op
>>where the co-op owns at least some extra batteries, if not an extra
>>generator, and all the co-op members are tied into a grid. The grid
>>will track who is using more than the generate and vice versa. Charges
>>would be based on this.
>
>>I don't see any real point in any higher level organization to it. But
>
> You're forgetting the lazy mind factor. Joe Store Clerk or Betty Lawyer
> doesn't give a fiddly fart where their electricity comes from.  They want to
> be able to turn on the lights when they need them. Its the same mentality
> that keeps Microsoft on top and will prevent Linux from completely taking
> over until some company starts loading on all their new computers so a user
> can just turn on and start surfing. If they have to worry about load and
> judging if they have enough power etc. they'll pay some big company to take
> of the details. If that means a major power grid they won't care. The richer
> a society is the less they'll care. Who cares about saving $20 a month when
> you're making $300,000 a year?

I wouldn't count on it. *Many* people, even now are doing things to
generate some of their own power, partly to reduce bills, partly
because they don't like the way the power companies are producing the
power.

A world that *starts* as a small colony with folks generating their own
power is *very* unlikely to switch to the other model. 

Once you get the neighborhood level co-ops in place, it actually
becomes possible to have some houses and other facilities that *don't*
have their own power. They just live with always owing money to the
co-op. 

But major power grids *can't* compete in such an environment. At worst,
you'd get as far as a central power unit for each "neighborhood". It
just plain isn't *worth* shipping power from more than a mile or so
away. Not with fusion power units. The line losses make it cheaper to
expand the substation, or add more batteries (depending on whether the
problem is "peak" load or base load).

A power room would likely by a part of standard house plans on most
Traveller worlds, just like a coal bin used to be for houses in much of
the US at one time. 

It's a tradeoff between "Gee, we can buy a 50 kW unit and sell any
excess to the co-op. Or we can buy an 8 kW unit, some battery banks,
and only have to buy power if we are using *all* the heavy load stuff
at once. Or on the third hand, we can go with just the 8 Kw, and buy
"peak" power all the time."

That's the sort of decision you make when *building* a house.
Contemporary equivalents might be choosing *how much* air conditioning
you can afford, or between various types of central heating/central air
and a heat pump. You consider what the initial installation costs are,
and how much they'll cost or save over the next 10 years or so. 

If you are *buying* a house, you try to get an idea what the monthly
bills will run, and whether or not you can save some money by replacing
some appliances, including furnace or air.

Or you may have been living there a while and decided to see if you can
save some money by upgrading something. Heck, depending on the mix of
other houses & businesses in the co-op, you might even be able to
*make* money by installing a bigger than you need unit and selling the
excess to the co-op.

The stuff with load balancing and the like is going to be automated,
expect with the possible exception of "warning" signals if you are
drawing too much power. That'd be something the homeowner would tell
the computer after being *shocked* by the size of the power bill. "Let
me know when our power draw gets above XXX". 

Kep in mind that in the downtown areas of many cities, heat was *free*
until recently. The old steam power plants got a lot of good will by
dumping "spent steam" (only 150 C or so) into pipes going to nearby
biuildings. The buildings (as much as half a mile or more away!) got
free heat in the winter. And it didn't cost the power company anything.

I recall the mad scramble when they pulled such a plant out near the
Portland waterfront back in the 70s. A number of places suddenly had to
worry about what it would cost to heat their building in the winter.
And where to install a steam heating system, or should they just rip
out all the steam radiators and install forced air, or electric?

So don't expect that the sort of costs *we* have to worry about will
always be there, or always be handled the same way. 

BTW, sure most folks making 300,000/year *don't* worry about a measly
$20 expense. On the other hand, the sort of place they'll be living in
will have *much* larger power bills. And you dont make that sort of
money by ignoring the possibility of making money. 

It might be simplest for them to put in a generator that can handle the
max load they ever expect to put on it, and then some. But *somebody*
is going to pioiunt out either that it's cheaper to use a smaller unit
and pick up peaking power from the co-op grid, or else that they can
*sell* the excess to the co-op grid.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:37:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>And for that matter, notice that seagoing ships do *not* go into
>>buildings, they tie up *alongside* docks, or even just anchor "nearby
>>(assume a parking orbit). 
>
> Have you ever seen the refit complex at Rosyth Royal Dockyard? Or the
> submarine refit complex at Devonport? Those seagoing ships go out of the
> water and into buildings.

Yes. For *refits*. Not for merely loading and unloading.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:25 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Electricity

> Sorry, no-one _lives_ in a place where CO2 snow occurs naturally.  The word
> is _exists_, surely.

Ok, I skipped making a joke about the atmosphere in Quebec, but, sheesh...
Australians. I lived in Sydney for almost a year and it's incredible how
lazy Australians are about indoor climate control. Gaps under the door big
enough to slide a Sunday newspaper through, single pane glass, single doors
(as opposed to the separated "airlock" type double doors we have here) into
shopping malls - hell, most houses in Sydney didn't have heaters! It was,
ironically, a hell of a lot colder in my apartment in Sydney at night than
it's ever been in Canada.

As one resident of a beer-drinking nation to another, it never gets cold
enough to put your beer outside at night - contrary to what the weather
reporters down under would have you believe.

> Combat Environment suits are a really good thing in cold climates, though.
> I allow a civilian version, that's not armoured and lacks the chameleon
> option.

Didn't they have something like this in Tarsus? Or was that the stock CES?

I am surprised that it gets cold enough for CO2 snow in Alaska, but I remember
quite distinctly from the info in Tarsus that it would occur at the poles
there quite regularly.

It might be intesting to compile a list of geological features that effect
weather so that GMs can have something more accurate to estimate surface temp
from other than just latitude, like lakes, mountains, etc.

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:42:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

>>The 1000-ton Scout tender has an openable bay, which completely contains
>>smaller ships, but that's only intended to hold a couple 100-ton
>>scout/courier or xboat class ships. I'm not sure if the bay can be
>>pressurized at all--again, what purpose would pressure and gravity in the
>>bay serve that would justify the expense of an enclosed bay, an airtight
>>door, and the volume of oxygen/life support/artificial gravity such a bay
>>would require?
>
> Ease of maintenance & Safety. 
>
> Is it that expensive? 
>
> You can pump most of the atmosphere into adjoining sections or tanks, prior 
> to opening the doors. Cheap.

Time consuming. Check out the sort of pumps required. It takes a long
time to pump *anything* out to a near vacuum unless you use a pump
almost as big as the volume you are pumping out. 

> You can replace lost oxygen by electrolysis of a small amount of water. 

Not *that* small. Check out what a cubic meter of O2 weighs. Then
consider that you'll need 9/8ths that mass of water to generate the
replacement oxygen.

> Nitrogen you would have to take in tanks I think. [Aside: Is it OK to use gases other
> than Nitrogen as the "inert" component of air?].

Yes, but doing so has various drawbacks. Mostly, the fact that they are
both expensive *and* they change life support conditions *drasticly* by
their very presence.

Helium is a bout the only "common" gas that's *possible* to use. And it
is both hard to obtain, and *leaks* thru holes that nitrogen and oxygen
*won't*. It's also a nightmare for lifesupport. It conducts heat
*dozens* of times better than nitrogen. Which means that you either
crank the air temp up to 90+ degrees, or you wear heavy clothing all
the time, or *both*.

And if you are using biological components in your lifesupport, they
won't be happy with the lack of nitrogen.

> Your standard life support should be able to handle this. Cheap.

*Small* losses, yes. Not large ones. Consider that "100 tons" is 13,500
cubic meters. A "mere" 1% loss is 13.5 cubic meters of air. 

Also, if you store the atmosphere at 100 atm pressure, that means you
need 1 dT of volume *inside* the storage tank for every 100 dt of space
in the bay. And that tank is resisting a force of almost 27,400 *tons*
attempting to break it open. 

> Life support - atmosphere recycling - is only required for air that is 
> breathed, which wont change whether the bay is open or closed. All that
> is required, above  what you already have, is ducting & heating. Cheap.

Sorry, but you just flunked life support 101. You have to circulate and
filter *all* of that air. Otherwise it can accumulate toxins, get
depleted in oxygen, or otherwise be Very Bad News for anyone exposed to
it. 

HGeck, just look at buildings on earth. Even *huge* ones. They have to
process the entire *volume* thru the heating/cooling/filtering system.
Not just the miniscule amounts that the people are actually *using*.

That "ducting" has to be able to handle high pressure air as you pump
out the bay. It also has to have pressure seals that isolate the bay
from the rest of the ship when you pump it out. 

And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. When you fill that
bay from the storage tanks, the air expanding from the tanks cools as
it expands. With the result that unless you take *major* steps, that
air will be at subzero temperatures. 

And when you pump it *back* into storage, compressing that air *heats*
it. You have to dump that heat somewhere (and now you know "why" it
gets cold upon expanding, it's trying to gain all that heat you took
away). 

Also, what temperature is the surface of the ship that has been brought
into the bay? The air contacting it is going to absorb or lose heat
*fast*, until the hull and the air are in thermal equilibrium. 

And if it's hot enough, you'll get air reacting with the hull metal and
depleting the oxygen. If it is *cold* enough, you'll get oxygen
condensing out of the air (a double threat, first because LOX is a
*major* fire/explosion hazard in the presence of *any* organic
materials, and most *metals*, second, because it's depeting the amount
of oxygen in the air), 

> You need an enclosed bay - enclosed by hull metal - to protect crew from
> micrometeorites and radiation - so no saving to be made here.

Micro-meteors can be stopped by enclosing the work area in several well
spaced layers of aluminum *foil*. The meteorite hits the foil and turns
itself and a small amount of the nearby foil into plasma. Which
disperses well before the next layer of foil. Astronauts wear a kevlar
"coverall" over their suits for micrometeorite protection *now*. 

Radiation isn't a hazard in most places most of the time. You place the
work area behind a slab of shielding and you are safe from solar
flares. You are "shadowed" from the source. Shadow shielding takes a
*lot* less mass than a bay. 

If there's any alternative, a station/spacedock will *not* be inside a
plantary radiation belt. So that hazard is eliminated. 

> Artificial gravity costs 300 KCr for a 500DT bay. Expensive.

> So the only expensive bit is the artificial gravity. If you want to
> save money you could use thrusters for gravity during the time you
> needed it, and dispense with the artificial gravity.

I've shown above that there are a *lot* more expenses involved.
Starting with the fact that not only do you *have* to provide life
support, but it has to be "heavy duty" to handle the huge temperature
swings, and all the fumes, dust, etc kicked up by actually *working* on
the ships.

Then add in the costs of the storage tanks for the air that you use to
fill the bay, plus the ones to account for losses. And the high
pressure plumbing to get the air to and from the tanks. And the pumps
(and cooling) to pump air into the tanks. When releasing the air, it'll
take a while to fill the volume. And you'll want diffusers to encourage
the streams of air to spread out in all directions. Those are cheap.
The heaters aren't. 

Be glad that we aren't *liquid* breathers. They can't compress their
"atmosphere" enough to matter. That makes for *real* hassles.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #862
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 863



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: tech question
Re: Re Electricity
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: Re Spacedocks
Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)
Re: tech question
water rights
Re: tech question
Enclosed Bays
Water politics, was:Re: tech question
Re: Re : Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
re: tech question
Sophontology 101
re:  Grav Vehicle ATC (was Re : tech question)
Re:  OT: The Blair Witch Project.
Nanorover Bound For Asteroid

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:22:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: tech question
> ...
>>I'm sure it'd be some *other* combination of well-meaning but ignorant
>>citizens trying to "help" that'd cause the destruction of the domed
>>city on the vacuum world. But it'd be just as inevitable. 
>>
>>The biggest danger to *any* support system is the ignorance of the
>>general populace. You have to do your best to make sure that the
>>well-mening are never in a position to do something "helpful".
>
>  I seem to vaguely recall a story (H. Beam Piper?) called "Blowups Happen"?

"Blowups Happen" was Heinlein. But Piper had a story about nuclear
plant safety (I can't recall the title) that was *very* disturbing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:25:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re Electricity

In mail you write:

>> From: "William F. Hostman" 
>> I live in Alaska, 
> ...
>> 
>> Some places are so cold, they don't shut the vehicles off at all during
>> the winter. I've seen CO2 "snow" occur NATURALLY. 
>
> Sorry, no-one _lives_ in a place where CO2 snow occurs naturally.  The word
> is _exists_, surely.

The classic story of living in a *really* extreme climate is "A Pail of
Air" by Fritz Lieber. I recommend it as an exercise in mind-stretching.

The means he uses to get the protagonists into the situation is
probably less likely by modern theory than it was then. But it's not
*impossible*. 

The techniques they use to survive seem workable, if rather limited. I
leave it to the rest of you to come up with a way to set the situation
in the traveller Universe. :-)

> OBTRAV:  Whenever I generate a PC for myself I always specify they come
> from somewhere warm, preferably tropical.  This is because I really hate
> cold weather, even of the rather mild kind we get here.  As a result my
> 'fantasy' alter-ego tends to hang about where it's warm, and moan and gripe
> when it's cold.  

> Combat Environment suits are a really good thing in cold climates, though. 
> I allow a civilian version, that's not armoured and lacks the chameleon
> option.

Actually, they should have limited version of it. White, to retain heat
at night, dark absorb sunlight during the day, and several bright
colors (say Yellow, Red, Orange, Green) for rescue situations or where
it's necessary to tell at a glance who is where.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:36:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

In mail you write:

> < snipping GravComp >
>
>> My preferred solution (without checking VE2, 'cause that's packed now) is
>> to have gcomp capped by tech level, with any Gs in excess of the comped Gs
>> requiring other means (gsuits, floatation tanks, whatever).
>
> GT Utility modules damp out 3G.
>
> IF that's the case, then a GTL12 8 G ship would subject the pilot to 
> 5G.  I am not a modern day fighter pilot (indeed I am not a fighter 
> pilot at all :), but I have seen documentaries where they handle that 
> kind of stress and then some.  Just to pass the school they have to 
> handle 9G for 5 seconds (IIRC).

<sigh>

For the umpteenth time. 

The G-loads in a fighter *aircraft* are quite different from those in a
fighter *spacecraft*. And all because the *spacecraft* has to use the
thrust of the main engine to turn. There's no air to "bank" against the
way an aircrft does.

In the aircraft, the G-load is generally from head to feet, except for
a few manuevers that have it in the opposite direction. Neither of
these is a good direction for the body.

In a space fighter, the g-load will be from *front* to *back*. That is,
it'll seem like you are laying down. In *this* attitude, the limits go
up *considerably*. I don't have centrifuge data handy, but I'm fairly
sure that the "limit" for 3gs in this position is *hours*. 5g would be
harder but still not that bad.

Contrast this with the head to foor loads, were the limits are in
*seconds*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:43:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Dynamite (or let an "unfortunate" earthquake take them out) a couple
> of pipelines in southern California[1]. And suddenly Los Angeles will be
> stuck with a supply of water that can't last more than a couple of
> *days*. And no way to get more in time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> New York City has the same kind of situation, from what I've heard.
>
> Considering how the New York City water authorities treat we upstate
> New Yorkers who have the temerity to live in "their" watershed, I'm
> surprised no annoyed citizens have put this to the test yet with a little
> uncivil disobedience.

New York built their "pipes" before we had modern steels. So they are
essentially *huge* tunnels through the rock. 

When they get Tunnel 3 finished, they are planning to drain Tunnel 1
(for the first time since it was completed back in the 20s or 30s!) and
check it out. God only knows *what* they may find in there. 

And I think that after they check out Tunnel 1, they may be planning to
refill it and drain tunnel 2 for a check.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:47:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

In mail you write:

> The recent commentary about grav vehicles has made me wonder what a TL12+
> city would look like.
>
> With cheap power, advanced materials, and gravitics, you could build
> incredible needles, but would you need to?  It seems to me that futuristic
> cities might be more spread out, with high-speed grav vehicles acting as a
> mass transit system.  It'd even be easy to have robotic grav cabs avalible
> for a fairly low fee.

> Any thoughts?

I rather like H. Beam Piper's ideas on the subject. He had the
buildings get wider *and* taller, but not *too* extreme. As I recall, a
mile high was about as high as anybody went.

The buildings had aircar "landings" all over the outside, as well as
large internal passages that you could fly through. And vertical shafts
as well. 

I seem to recall grav-bikes being popular for getting around inside the
buildings. 

The buildings were *widely* seperated with parklands filling the spaces
between them. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:54:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re Spacedocks

In mail you write:

>>> OK, here's a question for the serious gearheads to answer.  You have a 
> large
>>> space station.  You have lots and lots of very large docking bays (say
>>> 5,000DT range).  In the OTU is there an anaology to Star Wars' magnetic
>>> shields (?) that allow the ships to fly into the bays while the bays are
>>> open to space but have atmosphere and gravity?
>>
>>Nope. And there *shouldn't* be the sort of "docking bays" you describe.
>>You dock *to* a station, not *in* it.
>>
>>It's not like there's weather to worry about. And there are lots and
>>*lots* of good reasons for *not* wanting ships *inside* a structure.
>>To name just one, at least *some* of these ships (*all* of them at
>>lower TL's) have *reaction drives*.
>
> Oh, but there is! Radiation surges from solar flares, microasteroidals, and
> of course, Trash.

I dealt with those in another post, but here's a brief recap. Most
micrometeorites will be *destroyed by impact with the equivalent of a
sheet of aluminum *foil* or mylar film. You use several layers, spaced
a meter or so apart so that you don't have to replace them as often
(it'd take one strike in essentialy the *same* spot on each layer to
get a pentration). 

Larger objects will go right trhu, but then, they'd blast a hole in
normal hull materials too.

Radiation is easily solved with shadow shielding unless you are in a
radiation belt, and *nobody* is going to stick a facility in one of
those unless there's no alternative.

> Considering docking relative velocities, and the relative
> difference between main thrusters and RCS thrusters in power,
> dangerousness, etc, that argument doesnt wash well.

It's the main thrusters that you are *worried* about. They can be fired
inadvertently, or deliberately. Doing so inside a dock will kill many
people and ruin the dock. 

Doing so while tied up alongside will cause some minor damage and get
you fined.

>>Check out the safety zones for a Shuttle launch. And the stuff they do
>>to protect the pad from the exhaust. Things like a *million* gallon
>>water deluge system.
>>
>>And for that matter, notice that seagoing ships do *not* go into
>>buildings, they tie up *alongside* docks, or even just anchor "nearby
>>(assume a parking orbit).
>
> true, but not a particularly good comparison. Traveller ships have
> canonically had all the options available... including internal docks at
> the high port if small enough. IMTU, many high ports use a repulsor system
> to maneuver the ship into place in the bay... you park outside, and they
> bring you in. The bay doors are seldom closed, and the bay is kept in
> vaccum, but it provides microasteroidal and radiation protection for doing
> exterior work, as well as being a safety net in case you shear your tether
> and allows shirtsleeves through much lighter weight crawltubes. Plus, at
> launch, they push YOU out... And it is much easier to run the standard data
> and power connections.

None of those are that hard to do *outside*. And frankly, you get a
*lot* more ships docked for the same amount of materials if you use a
"spar" design rather than a "bay" design. 

Central station "body" with a bunch of "docking spars" extending out
from it. The spars contain transport capsules, walkways, and various
sorts of wiring and plumbing. Ships dock to the spare and standard
umblicals attach, as well as cargo and personnel transfer tubes.

If needed, you deploy the foil shields "spinward" of the spars. And the
spars can be built with radiation shielding placed such that ships are
in it's shadow. Though that would be pretty much reserved for repair
berths. For normal berths, the ship's hull is enough shielding.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:12:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)

On 07/14/99 09:48:56 you wrote:
>ObTrav: you can run a range war over water rights on a planet almost
>anywhere, just like they had in the old American west...

Historical note: Back in the teens the Arizona National Guard was sent to 
stop LA from building a diversion dam on the Colorado River that would have 
allowed them to pump more than their allocation from the river.  The LA Times 
despatached their war correspondent to cover the action.  No shots were 
fired, but it gives you an idea of how seriously people take water rights in 
arid environments.

- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:37:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: tech question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
>
> > It'll be tight, but there'll be water. There are also large reservoirs just
> > north of the city.
> 
> And without those reservoir, the treatment plants wouldn't be adequate,
> would they?
> 
> BTW, they find anything "interesting" in the old water tunnels when
> they drained them? Or is that still a ways off yet?

Well, without the reservoirs, dependence on the the treatment plants
alone would result in immediate _serious_ water rationing in NYC, true.

AFAIK, they haven't drained the old tunnels yet, they're still working
on the third aqueduct tunnel. They have to have that done, because the
valves on the old aqueducts haven't been shut since the aqueduct opened;
they're not at all sure they can close them, much less reopen them if
they do.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:24:06 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: water rights

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) types about the City of New Amsterdam:
 >And without those reservoir, the treatment plants wouldn't be adequate,
 >would they?
 >BTW, they find anything "interesting" in the old water tunnels when
 >they drained them? Or is that still a ways off yet?

      What they have found so far is that those tunnels leak.  A lot.
It will be a major undertaking to reseal them.

     The water billing system in NYC doesn't put much pressure on them to 
do so.  NYC residents are not billed on actual water usage.  They are 
billed for the number of faucets they have.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: tech question

Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au> writes (in 2 separate posts):

> John Buston wrote :-
> > You can replace lost oxygen by electrolysis of a small amount of
> > water. Nitrogen you would have to take in tanks I think. [Aside:
> > Is it OK to use gases other than Nitrogen as the "inert" component
> > of air?]
> 
> The noble gases would be an expensive alternative to nitrogen.
> I would not use these in a shirtsleeves environment. Xenon acts as a
> general anaesthetic with partial pressures in excess of 0.7 atmospheres
> and the other members of this family may have similar problems.
> 
> Do what the deep sea divers do and go with helium-oxygen mixtures, or
> just use air, it's cheap.

Compressed air (surface mix) becomes O2 toxic at 289 ft.  Nitrogen
Narcosis becomes a serious likelihood below 150 ft.  Decompression is
and issue and useful bottom time drops to < 5 minutes at depths greater 
than 130 ft.

> Gas mixtures containing less than 2psi of oxygen will cause marked
> hyperventilation (Resting ventilation is about 7L/min at 2.9psi partial
> pressure of oxygen. The depth of ventilation *doubles* with every 0.1psi
> fall in the partial pressure of oxygen!).

Right. This is why commercial deco (decompression) divers use custom
mixed gases.  Their PPO2 at depth is equal to:

    PPO2 of the mixture at the surface X (depth in ft. / 32)

> The aims with heli-ox or (any gas mixture, I guess) are to :-
> maintain normoxia, minimise the work of breathing and prevent
> inert gas narcosis, oxygen toxicity or the 'bends'.
    [...snip...]
> Interestingly, hydrogen has been suggested as an alternate inert gas for
> really deep diving (obviously oxygen is a very small percentage of the
> gas mixture!).

The 2 most common custom gas mixtures used for deep commercial diving
are HeliOx (Helium w/ > 2.0% Oxygen) and ArgOx (Argon w/ > 2.0% Oxygen.)
For *really* deep dives (> 1,000 ft.), a variation used is HydHeliOx
(Hydrogen, Helium, and Oxygen.)  The hydrogen becomes the favored bulk
gas because of it's low tissue binding properties (it is absorbed slowly
and released quickly from muscle and body fat.)  This greatly aids
speed of decompression.

        - Mark C.
          NAUI & PADI-certified RESCUE Diver
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:56:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Enclosed Bays

	One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
entering combat situations. So, the "added expense" of pumps, tanks, ducts
and filters for ship's bays is a non-issue.  You already have enough to
handle the air in the whole ship.

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:21:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Water politics, was:Re: tech question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 

> I'd be *really* interested to see what LA might look like if they were
> *forced* to use the landscaping laws that are common in places like
> Arizona.
> 
> Basicly, you landscape with *native* plants. And use minimal amounts of
> drip irrigation if needed.
> 
> The only places you see large expanses of grass are either *old*, or
> set up for sports fields. And I understand that they pay some *large*
> usage fees for the *privelege* of maintaining these alien ecosystems.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! 

Not even here, in the Socialist Republic of Tucson, Baja Arizona do they
get away with _that_! We have something like 37 new golf courses that
have been built in the last twenty years or so, all watered with potable
water. 

Granted, most new houses are being landscaped with native plants and
drip irrigation, but mostly because it's cheaper to install, looks much
better when newly built, and _much_ easier to maintain for the
homeowner. Most importantly, though, it doesn't die while the developers
guarantee on the house and landscaping is still in effect. 

That and the homeowner associations in the new subdivisions are
specifying exactly how everyone's home is supposed to look, down to the
paint colors allowed.

Where _most_ of the people in Arizona live, Los Angeles East, aka the
Phoenix Metropolitan area they still irrigate lawns by flooding them...

The only way they regulate water use here is the old fashioned way: they
raise water prices. Or try to. Each time they have done so in Tucson, at
least, there have been serious, and once successful recall campaigns
against the politicians who implemented the rate hike. 

(That one time they recalled all the council members, we got a city
council composed of one-issue amateurs, who somehow didn't realize there
was more to running a city that rolling back a water rate hike...that
they quietly reinstated several months later because we _really did_
need to raise water rates.)

It _has_ focused attention on the problem, and we're in the middle of
another one...the big brouhaha right now is over the use of Colorado
River Project water. Currently Tucson gets all of it's water from
groundwater sources, and we're pumping those dry.

But the city water utility completely and utterly f**** the introduction
of CAP water the first time. They got the chemistry _very_ wrong, and
caused a lot of the old cast iron pipes to start shedding rust. They
first implemented the changeover in an old part of town (of course you
test everything on the slums first, doesn't _everybody_???) and that
caused a lot of people's pipes to get clogged, forcing them to redo
_all_ their plumbing.

Then they swore up and down that the brown mud dripping out of the pipes
was first, 'normal', then 'something that'll go away soon', and only
after the fourth or fifth house had been flooded by burst pipes, and the
first 8" main burst, '...uhhh houston, we have a problem...'

After that the voters passed a referendum saying the city wasn't allowed
to deliver CAP water to consumers. The water utility basically ignored
the referendum, and went ahead with plans to fix the problem. This lead
to a _second_ referendum, and this fall there are going to be three or
four referendums on the ballot about the issue; we're electing a new
mayor, and several city council members, and the fighting is going to be
as ugly as I've ever seen, because the honest truth is, we have no
choice. 

We can either stop _all_ development (a sin worse than baby-eating here
in cementhead land) and force about 2/3 of Tucsons population to leave,
or deliver CAP water to consumers.

oBtrav: 

(Uhh, Eris, you can stop reading this now. NO...really, what I'm saying
here is of NO concern to you.  ;-)

Want to make life difficult for your PC's? Forget about Imperial court
politics, the Rebellion, squabbles between different Empires. The
absolutely dirtiest, meanest, most vicious politics imaginable occur on
the local level. 
The worst political fights are over who is the dog catcher.

Land your PC's and their cargo of imported water treatment equipment
into a local firestorm over the use or availability of the polluted
water the local water authority wants to use that equipment to clean up,
so they can use it as drinking water.

The populace see this as feeding them tainted water, and are pissed
about it.

We're talking sabotage, backstabbing, under the table deals, and lynch
mobs with ropes and pitchforks. Grandstanding politicians, and yellow
journalism.  

And it's all local, hands off stuff to the Imperium. In fact it's so far
beneath the notice of the Imperium the PC's might as well not
exist...too bad their cargo was burned, they were clapped in a dungeon,
and their ship confiscated, or worse...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:08:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Re : Some points on Fluorine (was : re : tech question)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote :-
>> If we didn't breathe oxygen we'd feel much the same about it. It's a
>> *very* reactive gas, only biological activity (involving some pretty
>> clever catalytic dodges) allows it to exist in the atmosphere for
>> significant periods of time.
>
> Fluorine makes oxygen look rather tame, Leonard. Check your CRC Handbook
> or look at the history of fluorine chemistry.

Sure. Now find an envoronment where free oxygen is as rare as free
fluorine is on earth. Note that oxides, even *mineral* oxides, would
have to be fairly rare. 

Turn loose some oxygen in that environment and the results will be
rather surprising. Oxygen is *not* a tame chemical. 

> Moissan who eventually isolated the stuff, after some *heavy duty*
> electrolysis got the Nobel in Chemistry for his effort.
> Most of his predecessors who attempted what he did were either seriously
> injured or killed!

Yeah, it's just a wee bit toxic. And since they hadn't yet learned that
fluorine will form a *protective* fluoride coating on metals like
copper and nickel, they wee all using *platinum* equipment. *Ouch*.

> Photosynthesis is energetically expensive. The analogous process for
> fluorine synthesis would be even worse, requiring some intriguing
> biochemistry (if possible at all).

That *is* the catch. That, and the fact that fluorine is just plain
*rare*. Like lithium, it's just a wee bit *too* good as a nuclear fuel
to exist in large quantities. 

My main intent was to remind folks that the existence of free oxygen in
huge quantities would be a rather surprising thing if we didn't live in
such an environment.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:53:00 +0100
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

Christopher Webb wrote:-

>Over a year ago on the TML I had proposed writing a program that would
>allow users to create, organize, and maintain star systems for Traveller.
>I was going to use the program as a programming project for my degree.
>Unfortunately, the proposal failed to get an okay, and I had to come up
>with something else fairly quickly.

I took one look at your proposals and thought 'Hey, that sound like my
program, World Builder Deluxe.' You might want to take a look at it. :-

http://www.cozmos-cosmos.com/~sferris/Traveller_World_Builder_Deluxe.zip

The program is currently available as V4.2 with V5.0 due to be released at
the end of July.

Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:49:24 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: tech question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
*Small* losses, yes. Not large ones. Consider that "100 tons" is 13,500
cubic meters. A "mere" 1% loss is 13.5 cubic meters of air. 

Also, if you store the atmosphere at 100 atm pressure, that means you
need 1 dT of volume *inside* the storage tank for every 100 dt of space
in the bay. And that tank is resisting a force of almost 27,400 *tons*
attempting to break it open. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
How do these temperatures and pressures compare with those
involved with liquid hydrogen operations? 

If they are similar, this would show the presence of tech that can
handle the requirements of the X-Boat tender design.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:10:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Sophontology 101

On 07/16/99 00:00:42 Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Hmm....
>Would someone be interested in starting a 'Sophontology 101' discussion?
>(a.k.a. 'Cultural Development for Dummies'??)
>For example, Glenn Grant mentioned he had written some interesting
>anthropological material at the beginning of the year.
>
>Come on, it's time for the resident social scientists to educate the
>unenlightened masses! You know you want to...
>
>More signal, less noise on the TML!

I've said everything I was really passionate about in Far Trader, but if 
anyone wants to start a thread on something related I'll gladly contribute.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:35:39 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re:  Grav Vehicle ATC (was Re : tech question)

> From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>

> I'm a helicopter pilot, which is about as close as you're going to get to
> grav vehicle flight characteristics. Here are a couple of examples from
> real world helicopter operations:

Thanks for your great real world examples.  In the readers' exercise
with which you closed, we have to turn the facts you presented around,
to reflect that the majority of vehicles in high tech level societies
will have the essential characteristics of helicopters (i.e., they can
land and take off vertically from anywhere), rather than the minority,
as is the case today.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:45:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  OT: The Blair Witch Project.

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: OT: The Blair Witch Project.
> 
> I have just returned from a sneak preview of The Blair Witch Project.  I

I've forwarded your capsule review to my brother, who wants to go on
opening night.  It should be fun.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:21:36 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid

CNN just posted a story about a "nanorover" being designed for
movement on the surface of an asteroid.

- --- quote ---
(CNN) - NASA's next rover can leap small buildings in a single bound but
weighs just a little more than Superman's cape. 

Unlike its Mars-touring cousin Sojourner, the latest rover, called a
nanorover because it is so small, is being designed to hop around an
asteroid
measuring a kilometer, or about a half-mile, in diameter...

Engineers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory are refining the advanced
rover in preparation for a mission called MUSES, overseen by the Japanese
space agency and set for launch in January 2002. The trick is learning how
to drive on an asteroid. 

"You've got the same problem as a car on Earth on a sheet of ice," said Don
Yeomans, NASA's project scientist for the mission. "There is very little
friction between the wheels and the surface." 

"So you can creep along at 1 millimeter per second or you can take these
enormous leaps, and that's the preferred mode of operation," he said...
- --- endquote ---

The full story and a picture of the little bugger can be found at:
http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9906/28/asteroid.probe/index.html

Although the rover isn't a true "nano"-device because of its size
(someone at NASA doesn't know the meaning of the word "nano"),
it's still pretty cool.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #863
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 864



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: Water politics, was:Re: tech question
Active Duty Service
Re: Re : tech question
Re: G:T Starports Playtesting
Speaking of Ancients
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Tech discussions
Re: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Tech discussions
Re: tech question...
Re: Electricity
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
RE: tech question
Re: Versions
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:42:53 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid

In a message dated 7/15/99 4:22:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

<< 
 Although the rover isn't a true "nano"-device because of its size
 (someone at NASA doesn't know the meaning of the word "nano"),
 it's still pretty cool. >>

Actually, the NASA use is rather a better use of the word-element nano- than 
we typically see.   Nano- comes from the Greek word "nanos"  which means a 
dwarf or midget.  

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:54:29 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

> For the umpteenth time. 

Exactly how high is umpteen?  I've always wondered about that :P
 
> In a space fighter, the g-load will be from *front* to *back*. That is,
> it'll seem like you are laying down. In *this* attitude, the limits go up
> *considerably*. I don't have centrifuge data handy, but I'm fairly sure
> that the "limit" for 3gs in this position is *hours*. 5g would be harder
> but still not that bad.

Ah, that's even better!  I guess GT fighters just got leaner 
and meaner (at least IMTU).

Does anybody have any numbers on how long it takes to launch and 
land a fighter (or any craft, actually) in a Vehicle Bay vs Spacedock? 
I would be very interested to see these numbers.  I've found 
numbers for a docking cradle in VE.  Are they the same?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:03:42 -0700
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: Water politics, was:Re: tech question

>BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! 
>
>Not even here, in the Socialist Republic of Tucson, Baja Arizona do 
>they
>get away with _that_! We have something like 37 new golf courses that
>have been built in the last twenty years or so, all watered with 
>potable
>water. 
>
>Granted, most new houses are being landscaped with native plants and
>drip irrigation, but mostly because it's cheaper to install, looks 
>much
>better when newly built, and _much_ easier to maintain for the
>homeowner. Most importantly, though, it doesn't die while the 
>developers
>guarantee on the house and landscaping is still in effect. 
>
>That and the homeowner associations in the new subdivisions are
>specifying exactly how everyone's home is supposed to look, down to 
>the
>paint colors allowed.
>
>Where _most_ of the people in Arizona live, Los Angeles East, aka the
>Phoenix Metropolitan area they still irrigate lawns by flooding 
>them...
>

I live in the Phoenix Metro Area-  Older neighborhoods do have
irriagation, usually using water from the Colorado River delivered via
the Central Arizona Project (CAP) Canal.

New homes have sprinklers and drip systems.  I live in a 2 year old home,
and many of my neighbors have grass instead of desert landscaping.  

Also, Tempe, which is one of the towns in the Metro area just *built* a
lake.  They wanted a waterfront and built collapsable dams 1 mile apart
on the Salt River (BTW-The Salt River only has water in it for a few
weeks every couple of years).  Then they used CAP water (I think) to fill
this lake.  And this is a "drought" year.

Brad Houston, 
Gilbert, AZ

tc+  tm  tne+  ru  ge@  3I+(-)  c+  jt  au(+)  ls+()  pi+  he+   so  vi 
sy+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:04:39 -0700
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Active Duty Service

A short while ago someone asked about why someone goes in the service. 
I'm having mail delivery problems, so this response has bounced several
times:

I joined the military because I realized that due to my lack of applying
myself in high school, lack of rich relatives, etc... I couldn't afford
to go to college.

I also realized that I needed to do something-staying at mom's house and
working at Circle K or whatever was not a good idea.  So I went to the
recruiter.  

He must have seen me coming.  Despite being offered a variety of jobs I
thought that the "Vulcan Cannon Gunner" looked "fun" and enlisted for
that job.  I also signed up for Airborne School.  In retrospect this was
not, perhaps, the wisest decision. 

I served in the United States Army for 5 years.  I was a Vulcan Gunner
for the most part (the Vulcan is a 6 barreled, drum fed 20mm cannon which
can fire 3000 rounds (HE, HE-T, etc...) a minute.

After 5 years the Army was phasing out the system I worked on.  I had two
children and a wife.  As a E-4 (Corporal) everyone I new was on food
stamps, including my gun battery commander (0-3).  I elected to leave
active duty so I could get a job to support my family in what I felt was
an acceptable fashion.

I was assigned, for the most part, to the 3rd Armored Cavalry in Fort
Bliss, Texas.  I went TDY (Temporary Duty) to Korea, Panama, and Germany.
 I went with the Regiment went to Saudi Arabia and Iraq.  I was later
assigned to the 25th Light Infantry Division at Schofield Barracks,
Hawaii.  I also went TDY to Fort Chaffee, Arkansas.

I hope this answers the question/need for why someone goes on duty,
etc...

Brad Houston

tc+  tm  tne+  ru  ge@  3I+(-)  c+  jt  au(+)  ls+()  pi+  he+   so  vi 
sy+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:25:47 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>        Hi, Matt...  I'd suggest a 500' traffic separation gap between each
>layer for safety...  so 500 - 2000', 2500 - 4000', 4500 - 6000', 6500 -
>8000, 8500 - 10000'.

Sounds sensible...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:13:56 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: G:T Starports Playtesting

At 09:11 PM 7/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I just started looking at the G:T Starports playtest board, and couldn't
>find an important datum:
>
>What's the deadline?
Unless I misunderstood Loren Wiseman at Dragoncon, I believe that he said 
that Starports has been pushed back to an October release date.

Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:34:40 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Speaking of Ancients

The discussion lately around Droyne and the Ancients show that the Ancients 
aren't so much a dead issue.  Would anyone like to contribute to a 
discussion with the aim of publishing an Ancient sourcebook of some kind? 
(Pending approval from Marc)  I have submitted a rough outline such a 
sourcebook.
I. Prehistory
- -deals with the interstellar civilization of the Droyne before Grandfather.  
Placid life, located somewhere in the Marches.
II.  The Rise of Grandfather and his children
- -Outlines grandfather's rise against the ruling orders and carve a new path 
for himself.  Creates clones of himself (christens them children) and 
launches the Droyne into higher stages of civilization.
III.  THe Ancient Civilization.
Outlines how Grandfather and his children occupy Chartered Space along with 
the other inhabitants.  [This is where I need help.  I visualize that the 
Ancients are not alone.  There are other Great Old Ones which are far more 
sophisicated than the Ancients along with countless minor other spacefaring 
races such as Gn'nak whose civilizations have down through a downfall since 
the time of the Ancients.  I am also looking for something that would really 
scare the Ancients.  A conspiracy?  Yes, one which causes the Ancients to 
strive for higher and higher levels of technical know-how.  The Ancients 
reflecting their Droyne heritage stumbled upon this evil and don't know how 
to contain it.  Some have formed alliances with it, others ignore it hoping 
it will go away and others like Grandfather worry.]
    a)  History - pretty much as above along with with forms of government.  
Practiced by the Ancient Overlords in regard to their subjects.
    aii)  The Economics of Abundance.  Traveller rules still presume 
scaracity.  The Ancients solved this problem but there still is need for 
requisations of scarce items.
    b)  Technology - listing of all Ancient items/artifacts [help] along 
with the wild technology when the Stone Age is thought to begin at TL G.
    c)  The conspiracy.  [help] who are the Ancients and other civilizations 
afraid of. From where does the threat imminate.  From within naturally.  
Something stimulates the Heart of Darkness to appear.

IV.  The other civilizations.  Includes the roles preformed by Humaniti and 
Vargr.
V.  The Final War
VI.  What remains of the Ancients today?  Listing of Ancient sites with 
content catalogued.  Imperial and non-Imperial policy regard such sites.
Any other suggestions?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:35:35 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Tech discussions

It's not really Traveller related but it cracked me up (even if it is a tad
of a 'tall' tale)

In a major hospital in South Africa, an intensive care unit kept losing
patients from the same bed. They'd be alive the night before, but die during
the night and as far as they could tell the equipment was fine (I believe
they swapped all the equipment around to make sure). Apparently this went on
for a couple of years before they worked out what had happened. 

The night cleaner had unplugged the ventilator each night so as to plug in
her floor polisher. 

But given the fact that most monitoring equipment would scream like a
banshee when it was plugged back in as there was no pulse, this is probably
an urban myth. 

Ob Traveller; Character's are hired to investigate the death of a patron's
relative who died in a hospital due to equipment failure. The characters
find out more than one has died and in the ensuing investigation discover
massive corruption or organ peddling . . . but at the very end realize that
all deaths that occurred in the bed where the patron's relative died, were
due to the relaying of power from nodes powering the emergency life support
equipment to the automated floor polishers.

It was as a stretch, but somehow I managed to bring it back to Traveller. 

- - Michael 
		
		In mail you write:

		> (Rob chants the anaesthetist's mantra : "No, no, no, no, no...")
		> Firstly, it would take a minimum of a few minutes for people on
		> ventilators or circulatory assist devices to die - much longer if the
		> staff were doing their job. Immediate death is rare in hospital.
		> Most critical facilities, be they hospitals or whatever have backup
		> power generation on site.

		Just as long as the lessons of the "great blackout" back in the 60s are
		still remembered. I know of two different hospitals that found out the
		hard way that they'd overlooked crucial details.

		The first had just installed a nice, new emergency generator system.
		The chief engineer saw the lights go out and confidently reached over
		and pushed a button. And nothing happened. Their fancy generator had an
		*electric* fuel pump. And no battery backup. 

		They finally got it started by a moby kludge. They chopped a hole in
		one of the fuel tanks, so they could dreged up some fuel.  They took a
		bunch of spare tubing and a funnel and went up enough flights of the
		emergency stairs to get enough pressure head to feed to injectors. 

		The second hospital had a better generator setup. It cut in
		automatically and started running just fine. It was in a sub-basement,
		near the East River. There was a lot of water seeping in. But no one
		had thought to specify that the sump pump for the sub-basement had to
		be on the emergency power panel. So the generator flooded out before
		anyone realized what was happening...

		Trust me. There's *alway* something you'bve overlooked.
		

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:50:28 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Tech discussions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 7:44 PM
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Tech discussions


>It's not really Traveller related but it cracked me up (even if it is a tad
>of a 'tall' tale)


It is extremely tall. There's quite a bit on this story at
http://www.snopes.com if I remember correctly.

>But given the fact that most monitoring equipment would scream like a
>banshee when it was plugged back in as there was no pulse, this is probably
>an urban myth.


<wailing, gnashing teeth>

ARRRGH! The term "urban myth" does not equate with falsehood or truth, nor
does the term "urban legend" for what it's worth. An urban legend is just an
example of the folklore that is transmitted in modern day industrialized
societies.

It's not an urban legend because it's untrue, it's an urban legend because
of the way it's been transmitted.

Ummm.. Okay. I'll go back to my cage now. Everyone else gets to have their
nitpicks, biology, physics, what have you. I'm a folklore geek. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:27:49 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: tech question...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:06 AM
Subject: RE: tech question


> Who has to look back to the good old days, in Victoria gas supplies were off
> for days when the sole supplier had an explosion in its gas generating
> plant.
>
> Then just last year the power grid in I  think Aukland NewZealand failed
> completely power apparently stayed off for days.
>
> I dont think anyone died as a result of the failures, though several were
> killed in the gas explosion. But the dislocation was enormous with losses
> estimated in the billions of dollars.
>

As I believe I read (huge news here in Oz when it happened), a few of the
sick and elderly did die because of the widespread outages.  This was mainly
due to lack of heating(??) and not being able to care properly (not
preparing proper meals, etc.) for themselves adequately.  I really don't
have details simply because I never read the full reports.

Also, Victoria, Australia had a crisis with the major gas supplier going
off-line for more than a week where people (again, sick and old) died for
various reasons brought about by the gas outage.

Sorry I couldn't add more, perhaps someone more local to the disasters might
be able to add something?  Keep in mind, these deaths were only a very
slight fraction of the populace of these places, but the whole cities lasted
quite well on average.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:22 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Electricity

Since I was editing from a digest, I included part of two posts, even
though I'm really only responding to one.

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> That's the sort of decision you make when *building* a house.
> Contemporary equivalents might be choosing *how much* air conditioning
> you can afford, or between various types of central heating/central air
> and a heat pump. You consider what the initial installation costs are,
> and how much they'll cost or save over the next 10 years or so. 
> 
> If you are *buying* a house, you try to get an idea what the monthly
> bills will run, and whether or not you can save some money by replacing
> some appliances, including furnace or air.
...
> 
> Kep in mind that in the downtown areas of many cities, heat was *free*
> until recently. The old steam power plants got a lot of good will by
> dumping "spent steam" (only 150 C or so) into pipes going to nearby
> biuildings. The buildings (as much as half a mile or more away!) got
> free heat in the winter. And it didn't cost the power company anything.
> 
> I recall the mad scramble when they pulled such a plant out near the
> Portland waterfront back in the 70s. A number of places suddenly had to
> worry about what it would cost to heat their building in the winter.
> And where to install a steam heating system, or should they just rip
> out all the steam radiators and install forced air, or electric?

Yep, that's the other side of the world for you.  Central heating.  Who
would want to live anywhere where you need central heating?

> From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
> > Sorry, no-one _lives_ in a place where CO2 snow occurs naturally.  The
word
> > is _exists_, surely.
> 
> Ok, I skipped making a joke about the atmosphere in Quebec, but, sheesh...
> Australians. I lived in Sydney for almost a year and it's incredible how
> lazy Australians are about indoor climate control. Gaps under the door big
> enough to slide a Sunday newspaper through, single pane glass, single doors
> (as opposed to the separated "airlock" type double doors we have here) into
> shopping malls - hell, most houses in Sydney didn't have heaters! It was,
> ironically, a hell of a lot colder in my apartment in Sydney at night than
> it's ever been in Canada.
> 
> As one resident of a beer-drinking nation to another, it never gets cold
> enough to put your beer outside at night - contrary to what the weather
> reporters down under would have you believe.
> 
> > Combat Environment suits are a really good thing in cold climates, though.
> > I allow a civilian version, that's not armoured and lacks the chameleon
> > option.
> 
> Didn't they have something like this in Tarsus? Or was that the stock CES?

I haven't looked at Tarsus for a while, though I seem to recall something
of the sort.  There's stuff on this in a couple of places.  Oddly enough,
it doesn't seem to be in Mission on Mithril, which just happens to be
sitting next to me.

> It might be intesting to compile a list of geological features that effect
> weather so that GMs can have something more accurate to estimate surface temp
> from other than just latitude, like lakes, mountains, etc.

Yes, that would be handy.  There's a considerable drop in temperature
between Brisbane and Toowoomba, where I live, although they're only about
80 miles apart.  It occasionally snows in Stanthorpe, not that much further
inland, in the mountains along the Queensland/New South Wales border.  I
don't go there.

My preferred climate is somewhere like Port Moresby (Papua New Guinea).  Of
course, it gets cold in the PNG highlands, but they're pretty serious
mountains.

Hmm, maybe that's why I like the Vargr - they've got fur!  Still, that
mightn't be a good thing on a world with a decent climate - even though
they don't sweat?  (Do they?) 

Anyway, different climates will result in differences in how people dress,
and stuff like that.  Even in controlled climates, like those on worlds
with unbreathable atmospheres, there may be differences in how the
temperatures are set.

And a last thought, aren't there advantages in launching rockets from
locations near the Equator?  Would this still apply in a grav-oriented
society?  Would it tend to encourage starports and early colonies to be
located near the equator?  Would this result in 'tropical' climates in many
smaller colonies, with limited seasonal variations, even when the all year
round climate differs drastically from Earth norms?  Just a thought.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:29:07 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:41:50 -0400
> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging 
> 
> > Alan Bradley wrote:

Actually it was 'Black ICE'.

> > And whoever the ...uh... sophont was that manipulated the Impies into
> > developing Virus was truly _brilliant_!  This one development (along
> > with the "Empress Wave") brought down nearly _all_ interstellar
> > cultures, with _one_ major exception....
> 
> Two.  The Regency survived as well, relatively unscathed.

Not to mention a fair chunk of Aslan, pretty much anyone to spinward - the
Avalar Consulate, and everyone out in Far Frontiers....  and of course a
certain number of Vargr states.....  There's no particular evidence that
the Empress Wave took out the Vargr as well as the Joes.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:19:09 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: tech question

> From: "Antony Farrell" 
> Who has to look back to the good old days, in Victoria gas supplies were off
> for days when the sole supplier had an explosion in its gas generating
> plant.
> 
> Then just last year the power grid in I  think Aukland NewZealand failed
> completely power apparently stayed off for days.

And we won't mention Sydney's water supply....

Well, at least Australia and New Zealand have already tested what the
effect of the Y2K bug could be.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:44:50 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Versions

> From: Michel Vaillancourt 
> <From A Scout/ Merchant/ Explorer Vargr Named Goghueghz, Translated to
Anglic>
....  
>         Your Admiral-turned-Emperor Plankwell was a Vargr spirit in his
> understanding of this.  You cherish his boldness and foreward thinking in
> understanding this very ideal.  Yet within us, you call it belittling
names.
> You are surprised when we act to correct you, thinking it is still more
> characteristic of the "anarchy" you see in our great state.  Most of you
do
> not even understand what "anarchy" really means.

And indeed, Arbellatra understood the great contribution that the Vargr can
make to the Imperium, in her dealings with the mighty Soegz.  We should not
forget that once the Vargr flew through the sky of Capital.  Of course the
pinkies try to forget this, but without Soegz, and his Vargr followers,
Arbellatra would not have come to power.

And we sold Capital back to you, in return for Antares....(*)

>         Look inside yourselves for the causes of the arrival of Corsair
> above your planet.  Not within us.
>         Or I'll personally carpet bomb your pink-stink home town.
> <...END TRANSLATED TRANSMISSION>

Bravo to my fellow Vargr!  It is right and proper that we should not speak
with one single voice, for who can speak for all members of our
freedom-living species?

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

(*) Well, OK, this might be a slight exaggeration.  It's a valid Vargr view
though.  And I do like the thought of the Moot being terrorised by Vargr
'auxiliaries', and Arbellatra having to hastily withdraw them from
Capital....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:38:30 -0600
From: "Christopher E. Webb" <cwebb@ctos.com>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

At 12:10 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Also - your system appears to be standard Traveller based, while mine is
based on GURPS 
>Traveller First In.

I haven't seen any GURPS Traveller material in the town where I live.
Neither FLGS stocks much GURPS (it doesn't sell well here; one of them is
trying to get rid of what they have left by marking it down to US$6 per book).

Anyone have any idea what the mix of Traveller flavors in play on the TML
is?  I recall that T4 seemed to be somewhat dominant when I was last
lurking on the TML 18 months ago, but a lot of GT seems to be receiving
discussion now.

>  1) Have your own data format

This has been my experience, too.  There's just too much I want to keep
track of, and I have yet to see anything out there already that will meet
my needs.

>  2) Start small, but from day one build your program to be extendable.

I've started this project at least six different times over the last five
years.  I have enough "small" components lying about that I could assemble
them all into one big one.  I've learned a lot between those projects and
my experience at work, so I have a better idea of how to do this project
and maintain the level of detail I want.

>  3) The platform wars - here's the icky one. 

Yup -- I got an earful (as it were) when I last proposed this to the TML in
January of 1998 since I had decided that Windows was not my first choice
for the product.

>   c) Consider cross-platform. You mentioned TurboVision 

I am using a GNU C++ compiler for starters.  I've already received a
suggestion that I consider using UNIX curses (which I may do when I am
ready to start porting away from TurboVision).  TurboVision is a product
Borland released with ~v3.0/3.1 of their DOS C++ compiler.  It provides an
event-driven text-based UI.  It's also now public domain and has been
ported to the environment I use as well as Linux.

In any case, thanks for the observations.

- -Christopher Webb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:24:16 -0600
From: "Christopher E. Webb" <cwebb@ctos.com>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

At 08:19 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>The star system data file should be something like Galactic or Traveller 
>Tools format.  Personally, I prefer the Traveller Tools format.  No offense, 
>Jim.

The main problem is that, at least with Galactic, there doesn't seem to be
a way for me to keep track of everything I'm wanting -- the data structure
for an individual world (or moon) in the pre-prototype I have is about 140
bytes long as a binary file, ignoring the space I'm alloting for the system
name.  I haven't seen Traveller Tools yet -- should I go track it down?

>Sector files would be good enough.  You can put an index file of all 
>created/converted sectors as a seperate file, so if you wanna view the next 
>subsector spinward, and it's in another charted sector, the index will find 
>the right sector.

This makes sense, and simplifies things for standard Traveller uses.

>>   7: Flexibility in organization: allowing either standard Traveller sector
>> organization or 3D Cartesian coordinates.
>
>I'm not so worried about 3D as I am standard traveller format.

Yes, but I run a heretical TNE campaign based on the 2300AD Near Star List
(along with a T4 Pocket Empires for some higher-level organization, and a
handful of other Traveller editions and non-Traveller material).

>Shall I start a list at Onelist for this?

Is Onelist a list server?  I don't think there's enough bandwidth (right
now) to warrant a separate list.  That may change if enough interest is
generated.
 
Thanks for the feedback, Keven

- -Christopher Webb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:03:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

> At 08:19 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >The star system data file should be something like Galactic or Traveller 
> >Tools format.  Personally, I prefer the Traveller Tools format.  No offense, 
> >Jim.
> 
> The main problem is that, at least with Galactic, there doesn't seem to be
> a way for me to keep track of everything I'm wanting -- the data structure
> for an individual world (or moon) in the pre-prototype I have is about 140
> bytes long as a binary file, ignoring the space I'm alloting for the system
> name.  I haven't seen Traveller Tools yet -- should I go track it down?

What I mean by 'star system data file' is, the file that holds the bare bones 
system information like yeah, there's a gas giant here, yeah there's a port 
here, here's the main world stats.  You can reference the rest off of files 
that are indexed to occupied hexes.

For the indexed files, say you have a system at 0404.  The raw data file 
would be called something like 0404.dat, any ref's notes would be 0404.txt, 
etc, etc, etc, all in a directory that uses the sector's name.

Personally, like I said before, I *LIKE* Trav Tools.  The ref for it is 
http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/software.html.  Mick hasn't upgraded 
it in awhile, though.  It was 'summer' down under, and they're just getting 
into winter real good now.
 
> >Sector files would be good enough.  You can put an index file of all 
> >created/converted sectors as a seperate file, so if you wanna view the next 
> >subsector spinward, and it's in another charted sector, the index will find 
> >the right sector.
> 
> This makes sense, and simplifies things for standard Traveller uses.

It's pretty much the way Galactic does things, and Trav Tools has something 
simular.
 
> >>   7: Flexibility in organization: allowing either standard Traveller sector
> >> organization or 3D Cartesian coordinates.
> >
> >I'm not so worried about 3D as I am standard traveller format.
> 
> Yes, but I run a heretical TNE campaign based on the 2300AD Near Star List
> (along with a T4 Pocket Empires for some higher-level organization, and a
> handful of other Traveller editions and non-Traveller material).

<chuckle>
 
> >Shall I start a list at Onelist for this?
> 
> Is Onelist a list server?  I don't think there's enough bandwidth (right
> now) to warrant a separate list.  That may change if enough interest is
> generated.

Yeah.  I'm on 14 different lists there, 5 of which I moderate.  I like the 
server.
  
> Thanks for the feedback, Keven


No problem, Chris.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #864
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 865



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Two Questions 
Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)
Speaking of Ancients
Re: Software proposal (longish?) 
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Urban Myth (linguistically dodgy?)
Re: tech question
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: First In Software
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: Software proposal (longish?) 
Re: tech question
Depressurization (WAS: Re: Enclosed Bays)
Re: Depressurization (WAS: Re: Enclosed Bays)
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: Speaking of Ancients
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
RE: The Blair Witch Project.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:59:33 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

> One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
> ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
> somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
> entering combat situations.

Actually, we don't neccessarily know this. What one does is de-pressurize
when going into combat situations.

Whether that's done by explicitly evacuating the interior or by venting
probably depends on the design.
I suspect  it would be simpler to vent and then regenerate the atmosphere
than try to evacuate and store it.

On the other hand, if you have a combat ship and it does depressurize,
everyone needs to be in vacc-suits running on pumped oxygen, so it is likely
that all stations and staterooms will have piped oxygen anyway, because you
don't want to use suit gas until you have to.

For redundancy,and especially in military ships it would make sense for each
area, may be each room,  to have it's own oxygen supply, but for ease of
replenishment, it would make sense if these system were all connected to
some centralized point as well, with automatic pressure seals.

I suspect, though, that all the systems would automatically be isolated on
going to battle stations, or any emergency..

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:15:47 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.


>As Chris Knight said at the BayCon sneak peak trailer "The actress (I forget
>her name unfortunately) that plays the lead needs to win the Academy Award
>at least".  Unlike Doug, I haven't had a chance to see the movie yet, but I
>can't wait to.  I really like your description Doug :)
>
>Jesse
>
I haven't seen the movie but I did see an underground copy of the original
tape that was found. Pretty scary stuff......

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:18:52 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Two Questions 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01F2_01BECF10.055A8F80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've got a couple of questions for the list. Has anyone run a hybrid =
merchant\mercenary scenario where the PCs are the repo-men repossessing =
starships.  How would that work under Imperial Law.  Obviously the =
intent is to take possession of a defaulted ship with little or no =
damage to the vessel.  How would you repo one and what counter measures =
could be taken to prevent repossession.  What with the problem of =
communications delay, how could it be established that a vessel is =
actually in default and thus subject to repossession.  When you buy a =
ship "on time" are there restrictions on where and how far away it can =
be taken from the point of sale?  Is repossession one of the penalties =
for violation of such stipulations? =20

Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could =
a numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force =
use to stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command =
detonated mines to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure =
hoses of salt water with electric currents run through them to knock =
them down and possibly short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way =
to drop them into a hole and then filling the hole with cement?  How =
about spraying them with some kind of quick setting super epoxy that =
would render them immobile?  Those are the only ideas I have and and I =
admit some are a bit off the wall.  Anyone have any other thoughts?      =
=20

- ------=_NextPart_000_01F2_01BECF10.055A8F80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I've got a couple of questions for =
the list. Has=20
anyone run a hybrid merchant\mercenary scenario where the PCs are the =
repo-men=20
repossessing starships.&nbsp; How would that work under Imperial =
Law.&nbsp;=20
Obviously the intent is to take possession of a defaulted ship with =
little or no=20
damage to the vessel.&nbsp; How would you repo one and what counter =
measures=20
could be taken to prevent repossession.&nbsp; What with the problem of=20
communications delay, how could it be established that a vessel is =
actually in=20
default and thus subject to repossession.&nbsp; When you buy a ship =
&quot;on=20
time&quot; are there restrictions on where and how far away it can be =
taken from=20
the point of sale?&nbsp; Is repossession one of the penalties for =
violation of=20
such stipulations?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Second question, given a urban =
battle field=20
setting what measures could a numerically superior but technologically =
inferior=20
but prepared force use to stop a squad in battle dress.&nbsp; I can see =
the use=20
of command detonated mines to drop buildings on them.&nbsp; How about =
high=20
pressure hoses of salt water with electric currents run through them to =
knock=20
them down and possibly short their circuitry?&nbsp; What about figuring =
a way to=20
drop them into a hole and then filling the hole with cement?&nbsp; How =
about=20
spraying them with some kind of quick setting super epoxy that would =
render them=20
immobile?&nbsp; Those are the only ideas I have and and I admit some are =
a bit=20
off the wall.&nbsp; Anyone have any other=20
thoughts?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_01F2_01BECF10.055A8F80--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:50:46 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)

The issues associated with water and civilization past, present, and future
lend themselves to a myriad of potential problems and conflicts.  The
allocation of the Colorado River is a case in point.  It is my understanding
that its water use was allocated based on an atypical very wet season.  Thus
it's waters are highly over subscribed by various U.S. interests. Mexico,
being at the end of the daisy chain, has historically been literally left
with the leavings and is none to happy about it.

Various parts of the world; Mexico City, Venice, Houston, parts of
California have experienced significant subsidence due to excessive pumpage
of ground water.  How significant you ask,  in parts of Mexico City
subsidence since 1950 has been on the order of 5 to 10 meters, Houston has
subsidence districts to control pumpage,   reportedly some aqueducts in
California have had to be rebuilt otherwise they might flow the wrong way.
In various arid regions of the world ground water withdrawals so exceed
recharge that it is clear that current usage and thus populations are not
sustainable.

Acid mine drainage from 19th and early 20th century mines in the American
West is a continual problem.  Reportedly improper disposal of brines from
early oil fields has made shallow surfical aquifers in parts of Oklahoma and
Kansas unusable for the foreseeable future.

Diversion of waters flowing into the Arial Sea by the former Soviet Union
has reduced it to a fraction of its former size and left it little more than
a brine lake.   They had plans to divert south whole rivers flowing into the
Arctic Ocean.  They were talking about blasting through mountains with
atomic munitions.  I don't know what has become of the projects but I can
tell you that the climatological consequences of such terra forming projects
are relatively unknown.

In various coastal regions of the world withdrawal of groundwater and the
cutting of drainage canals have resulted in salt water intrusion such that
well fields have had to be abandoned and alternative sources developed.

A few years back I attended a lecture at the Geological Society of America
Convention in Boston where the presenter provided evidence that a measurable
portion of global sea level rise in the last hundred years can be directly
attributed to man.

Where does this leave us as far a Traveller scenarios you ask.    How about
both the potential and real effects on an indigenous planetary population of
rapid global climatic change due to the engineering efforts of an
agribusiness affiliate of a megacorp.  Lots of potential for a straight
David and Goliath type confrontation, plenty of opportunity for skullduggery
with suppressed evidence which, if only the old professor can be gotten to
the science conference to present,  will set the matter right.  If not,
rapid sea level rise or fall, desertification or glacial ice age your pick.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:00:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Speaking of Ancients

> From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Speaking of Ancients
> 
> The discussion lately around Droyne and the Ancients show that the Ancients
> aren't so much a dead issue.  Would anyone like to contribute to a 
> discussion with the aim of publishing an Ancient sourcebook of some kind? 
> (Pending approval from Marc)  I have submitted a rough outline such a 
> sourcebook.

I think that you should have a section on historiography as well.  It
would address the question, who has known what about the Ancients and
Droyne, and when have they known and not known it?  

I'm interested in such a discussion.  I doubt that there would be any
objections from the TML to having it on this list.  How much more
on-topic can you be?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:14:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

> >    c) Consider cross-platform. You mentioned TurboVision - I'm not familiar with that 
> > product. Someone else mentioned Curses. I myself use Java. But a warning - to truly 
> > write cross-platform, using any of these techniques, requires a great deal of 
> > discipline. You can't just write in a cross platform language/environment - you also 
> > have to follow certain techniques. Otherwise, you won't really reach your goals.
> > 
> 
> >From all my run-ins with Java, I have learned to hate it.  Even Windows
> 95 is less buggy and runs faster.  We unfortunately use a Java-based
> records system on site at HP Medical and man is it slow sometimes..and
> prone to really flaky errors.  

Java was a great idea.  Its implementation was less than stellar.  And when 
MicroShaft tried to Windowsize it, Java went to hell.
 
> As for browsers and java, it seems to work a little better but is still
> slow to load.

If you don't use IE, Java has a tendancy to not work so well.  Could be cause
a lot of sites use the M$ version of Java rather than the Sun version.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:22:04 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Urban Myth (linguistically dodgy?)

Doesn't the common usage of 'urban myth' now relate more to stories or
anecdotes which have mutated through re-telling and transmission, aka Disney
dying in surgery becoming 'Disney on Ice (the head not the floor show)' or
organ peddling in asia mutating into a story about a guy who wakes up in a
tub of ice with his kidney's missing as they've been stolen by organ
thieves? 

Ob Traveller; Would transmission of information now reduced to the speed of
jump, would such um...( trying to find a way to describe these without
referring to urban myth, let's try...) tall tales of mirth and glee that
appear now courtesy of the internet exist in Traveller? 

I suppose in the past when communications was restricted to sail, the 'here
be dragons' and colourful recollections of strange customs passed around
waterfront taverns would be the equivalent of tall tales of mirth and glee.
And if you look at the fact that those nosy old retired scout coots from
various adventure books had the best rumours, then perhaps tall tales of
mirth and glee still do exist.

- - Michael 
				
			In mail you write:

		> (Rob chants the anaesthetist's mantra : "No, no, no, no,
		no...")
		> Firstly, it would take a minimum of a few minutes for
		people on
				> ventilators or circulatory assist devices
to die - much
		longer if the
				> staff were doing their job. Immediate
death is rare in
		hospital.
				> Most critical facilities, be they
hospitals or whatever
		have backup
				> power generation on site.

				Just as long as the lessons of the "great
blackout" back in
		the 60s are
				still remembered. I know of two different
hospitals that
		found out the
				hard way that they'd overlooked crucial
details.

				The first had just installed a nice, new
emergency generator
		system.
				The chief engineer saw the lights go out and
confidently
		reached over
				and pushed a button. And nothing happened.
Their fancy
		generator had an
				*electric* fuel pump. And no battery backup.


				They finally got it started by a moby
kludge. They chopped a
		hole in
				one of the fuel tanks, so they could dreged
up some fuel.
		They took a
				bunch of spare tubing and a funnel and went
up enough
		flights of the
				emergency stairs to get enough pressure head
to feed to
		injectors. 

				The second hospital had a better generator
setup. It cut in
				automatically and started running just fine.
It was in a
		sub-basement,
				near the East River. There was a lot of
water seeping in.
		But no one
				had thought to specify that the sump pump
for the
		sub-basement had to
				be on the emergency power panel. So the
generator flooded
		out before
				anyone realized what was happening...

				Trust me. There's *alway* something you'bve
overlooked.
				

		------------------------------

		Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:50:28 -0400
		From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
		Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED: RE Tech discussions


		<wailing, gnashing teeth>

		ARRRGH! The term "urban myth" does not equate with falsehood
or truth, nor
		does the term "urban legend" for what it's worth. An urban
legend is just an
		example of the folklore that is transmitted in modern day
industrialized
		societies.

		It's not an urban legend because it's untrue, it's an urban
legend because
		of the way it's been transmitted.

		Ummm... Okay. I'll go back to my cage now. Everyone else
gets to have their
		nitpicks, biology, physics, what have you. I'm a folklore
geek. ;)
- ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:35:39 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: tech question

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 9:19 AM
Subject: RE: tech question


> > From: "Antony Farrell"
> > Who has to look back to the good old days, in Victoria gas supplies were
> off
> > for days when the sole supplier had an explosion in its gas generating
> > plant.
> >
> > Then just last year the power grid in I  think Aukland NewZealand failed
> > completely power apparently stayed off for days.
>
> And we won't mention Sydney's water supply....
>

Oh!  I forgot about that!!  And people did die from that one too!!  But that
wasn't because of the system not supplying water, but because of the water
it did supply at that time...

> Well, at least Australia and New Zealand have already tested what the
> effect of the Y2K bug could be.
>

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:32:56 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

> I haven't seen the movie but I did see an underground 
> copy of the original tape that was found. Pretty scary stuff......


hehe... Sorry to ruin it for you, but.... it's ALL fiction.

http://www.reel.com/cgi-bin/nph-reel.exe?OBJECT=/events/reviews15.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:38:02 -0700
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@iname.com>
Subject: Re: First In Software

At 01:56 PM 7/15/99 +0000, igor@truserve.com wrote:

>However, I will probibly be looking for beta testers here Real Soon (tm), so if you 
>have access to a Java 1.2 VM and are interested, please let me know.
>

Play testing sounds great from here. What does it take to run Java 1.2 VM?

Sincerely,

Brian A. Howard

Beware the sound of a Babel fish,
For a Vogon constructor fleet cannot be far behind.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bruadh/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:51:32 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

Excuse my apparent ignorance (and it IS on my part) where is the canon
reference to depressurizing during combat located? I am really
interested since I seem to have overlooked this or forgotten it. Thanks.

"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> 
> > One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
> > ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
> > somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
> > entering combat situations.
> 
> Actually, we don't neccessarily know this. What one does is de-pressurize
> when going into combat situations.
<snipped>
> Frankie

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:21:17 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

> At 12:10 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Also - your system appears to be standard Traveller based, while mine is
> based on GURPS 
> >Traveller First In.
> 
> I haven't seen any GURPS Traveller material in the town where I live.
> Neither FLGS stocks much GURPS (it doesn't sell well here; one of them is
> trying to get rid of what they have left by marking it down to US$6 per book).
> 
> Anyone have any idea what the mix of Traveller flavors in play on the TML
> is?  I recall that T4 seemed to be somewhat dominant when I was last
> lurking on the TML 18 months ago, but a lot of GT seems to be receiving
> discussion now.

That's just because G:T is the only current Traveller product in production 
at the moment.  T5 should be out sometime at the end of the year I think.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:49:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: tech question

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: tech question
...
>>  I seem to vaguely recall a story (H. Beam Piper?) called "Blowups Happen"?
>
>"Blowups Happen" was Heinlein. But Piper had a story about nuclear
>plant safety (I can't recall the title) that was *very* disturbing.

  Right author, wrong title: "Day of the Moron", The Worlds of H. Beam Piper,
ISBN 0-441-91052-1 , first published Sept. 1951, ASF.

  Trav characters like this justify Virus, though :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:52:05 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Depressurization (WAS: Re: Enclosed Bays)

Michael Peters wrote:
> 
> Excuse my apparent ignorance (and it IS on my part) where is the canon
> reference to depressurizing during combat located? I am really
> interested since I seem to have overlooked this or forgotten it. Thanks.

From my copy of Book 2: Starships (apparently a relatively early
printing, since at least the pirate encounters change [or so I am told]
in later printings):

**begin quote**

Decompression:  Starships (and non-starships) depressurize their
interiors before combat whenever possible; the passengers and crew
resorting to vacc suits for safety and comfort.  This procedure
minimizes the danger due to explosive decompression as a battle result. 
In some cases, selected areas may remain pressurized...while other areas
are depressurized. (pages 34-35)

**end quote**

Book 2 goes on to discuss the various areas that can be individually
regulated, the effects of hull decompression, and the save throw to don
a vacc suit in time.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:57:23 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Depressurization (WAS: Re: Enclosed Bays)

Thanks,

Gosh, I guess it been a LONG time since I really read the LBBs.

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> 
> >From my copy of Book 2: Starships (apparently a relatively early
> printing, since at least the pirate encounters change [or so I am told]
> in later printings):
> 
<snip of qoute>
> --
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:08:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Enclosed Bays
>
>	One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
>ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
>somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
>entering combat situations. So, the "added expense" of pumps, tanks, ducts
>and filters for ship's bays is a non-issue.  You already have enough to
>handle the air in the whole ship.

  I've argued that capability at least in warships, but it doesn't follow that 
it's cheap or that a ship can do so for the docking bay that contains it.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:21:07 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

Wow, Boris, lots to cover, eh?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> I. Prehistory
> -deals with the interstellar civilization of the Droyne before
Grandfather.
> Placid life, located somewhere in the Marches.

Why would you want to devote an entire section to these guys?  They are just
"drones" who were rather uninteresting prior to the emergence of
Grandfather.  Did they even have jump drive before Papa Smurf came along?
Have pre-ancient era Droyne colonies been found?  Was there a passing group
of starfarers who "uplifted" these guys?  I mean, they must have learned
their trick somewhere, right?  Hmm, maybe I'm just raising too many
questions and not being much help ;-)

I have a few more comments on the other items, but I'll hold off until I've
boned up on the subject a bit more.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:57:12 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

I've got a connection to trav.

The crew of adventurers are sent to find a lost team of holovid makers who 
were going to make a holo-vid on the planet Blair-4....the rest is up to you.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:02:16 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

I also saw a preview of it <<sorry Jess I can't tell you how with "everyone" 
reading along on the list here>> Doug is right...Jesse, I'm never going 
packing again, my lights are on, my weapons loaded.  HELP ME!!!

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:05:41 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

The "original tape" that was "found" ??  Thom, you do know it is a "fake 
documentary" right?  I hope so or the actual film will give you a coronary.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:01:28 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

>The "original tape" that was "found" ??  Thom, you do know it is a "fake
>documentary" right?  I hope so or the actual film will give you a coronary.


Shhhhh!

Part of the magic of a movie that is supposedly an accurate portrayal of
real events is that people walk into the theater thinking that it's an
actual portrayal of real events! Fargo, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, etc.

Sheesh! ;)

I bet you go around telling everybody that the Jerry Springer Show and pro
wrestling are fake too!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:34:46 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.

Todd does have a way of spoiling things for people like that.  I heard that
he even goes around telling 6 year olds that Santa Claus and the Easter
Bunny are fakes!!  Can you believe it?  Everyone knows they're real!!  Just
last year I got a lump of coal from Santa 'cause I hadn't gotten enough
Traveller 3D material out there yet ;)

On a serious note, you're talking about "the suspension of disbelief".  If a
flim maker can suspend the disbelief of the audience for the amount of time
that they're in the theater, then they have truly done their job.  "Blair
Witch", though it's a small independant project, has garnered coverage in
several of the trade rags so far, was at Cannes (the filmakers got in
trouble for their flyers that were mistaken for real "missing" posters :)
and I wish them the ABSOLUTE best of luck!!!  Everyone should go see it to
support good independant film making!!!!

OK Todd, when are you going to write a good story for us to do our own
independant film to capture Cannes?? ;)

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Seamans
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:01 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.
>
>
> >The "original tape" that was "found" ??  Thom, you do know it is a "fake
> >documentary" right?  I hope so or the actual film will give you
> a coronary.
>
>
> Shhhhh!
>
> Part of the magic of a movie that is supposedly an accurate portrayal of
> real events is that people walk into the theater thinking that it's an
> actual portrayal of real events! Fargo, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, etc.
>
> Sheesh! ;)
>
> I bet you go around telling everybody that the Jerry Springer Show and pro
> wrestling are fake too!
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #865
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 866



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: tech question
RE: tech question
TML 3d club-Site update
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Urban Myth (linguistically dodgy?)
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Two Questions
Re : Tech question
Re : Sophontology 101
Re: Sophontology 101
Myth/Legend
Equitorial Settlement
Re BD
RE: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
re: Trav software
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: tech question (really, an example of an urban legend)
Re: Two Questions 
Speaking of the Ancients -reply
Re: Enclosed Bays

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:33:05 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question

Look at the subcontractors - lowest quote, substandard materials etc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:33:01 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question

Try having seperate fusion power plants on a world run by the mega corps.
I'm sure that they would want a monopoly on supply which would mean fewer,
larger generators. Smaller colonies would also not have a lot of generation,
indeed some of them may be using the power plant from the colony transport
that brought them there.

Sublight colony ships were still travelling through the third Imperium (I
think I read this somewhere) and the Scout service apparently interdicted
them. In TNE the virus was not as forgiving.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:05:22 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: TML 3d club-Site update

I replaced the scout/courier picture on my site with a new one. I
completely rebuilt the model after looking at the one on Jesse's site.
It's not perfect yet, but it's getting better. Location to art page
below

http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm

Let me know what you think off list. Sorry to those of you that think
this is a waste of bandwidth!
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:06:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Urban Myth (linguistically dodgy?)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Urban Myth (linguistically dodgy?)


>Doesn't the common usage of 'urban myth' now relate more to stories or
>anecdotes which have mutated through re-telling and transmission, aka Disney
>dying in surgery becoming 'Disney on Ice (the head not the floor show)' or
>organ peddling in asia mutating into a story about a guy who wakes up in a
>tub of ice with his kidney's missing as they've been stolen by organ
>thieves?


That is the common usage but the common usage is not always the "correct"
usage. Then again, the common usage can become the correct usage if it
becomes common enough. Witness the fact that the new millenium was welcomed
in at the start the year 1000, and will be welcomed in at the start of the
year 2000.

The terms "urban legend" and "urban myth" have nothing whatsoever to do with
how much the story has mutated through transmission. This happens with all
folklore, it's not limited to urban legends.

>Ob Traveller; Would transmission of information now reduced to the speed of
>jump, would such um...( trying to find a way to describe these without
>referring to urban myth, let's try...) tall tales of mirth and glee that
>appear now courtesy of the internet exist in Traveller?


They don't appear courtesy of the internet. Most of the ULs that are
transmitted on the internet today have existed for a decade or more. Others
incorporate the same themes but are quite different. The internet is not
responsible for their existence, just their recent popularity, which has
fortunately been waning.

I say fortunately because it's a damper on the oral tradition. It seems that
everybody wants to be that guy who is just one UL ahead of the other folks
at the local bar, ready to assert that the story just told is false

"Oh, that one's an urban legend! I read it on Snopes!"

And yes, folklore will continue to be transmitted orally in the Third
Imperium. There's no doubt about it.

>I suppose in the past when communications was restricted to sail, the 'here
>be dragons' and colourful recollections of strange customs passed around
>waterfront taverns would be the equivalent of tall tales of mirth and glee.
>And if you look at the fact that those nosy old retired scout coots from
>various adventure books had the best rumours, then perhaps tall tales of
>mirth and glee still do exist.


The surviving folklore from the age of sail covers a heck of alot more than
just "here there be dragons" and colorful recollections of foreign customs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:17:39 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 2:18 AM
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.


>On a serious note, you're talking about "the suspension of disbelief".  If
a
>flim maker can suspend the disbelief of the audience for the amount of time
>that they're in the theater, then they have truly done their job.

It also helps if the viewer thinks it might just be real. A local paper did
a review of the film and like 1/3rd of it was "ways you can tell that this
movie isn't a true story."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:12:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Two Questions

> From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
 
> I've got a couple of questions for the list. Has anyone run a hybrid =
> merchant\mercenary scenario where the PCs are the repo-men repossessing =

There is an article in Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society about
this.  It's called something like, "Giving the Bank a Fighting Chance."

> starships.  How would that work under Imperial Law.  

Imperial law governs the space between star systems, and, to some
extent, space within a star system, as well as starports.  That's where
any starship would normally be found.  As long as you have authorization
from the bank, you won't be charged with piracy or hijacking (or charges
will be dismissed with full exoneration).  "Unnecessary roughness" is an
issue of course.  If you shoot up the passengers, they'll sue you, but
you might also face a reckless endangerment charge from the Imperial
prosecutor.  How big is your bank employer, and how good a lawyer can it
afford?

> damage to the vessel.  How would you repo one and what counter measures =
> could be taken to prevent repossession.  

Counter-measures occur at different levels.  The first is not being
found by the bank -- so take that ship somewhere far away, even outside
of Imperial space.  Another approach is to change the ship's papers and
the transponder.  The latter is rather a problem; it seems to me that
it's a little harder than changing your car's VIN.  The second level of
countermeasures comes in when the first have failed; then you fall back
on your anti-hijack procedures.  These of course should be changed after
you get into default, because the bank may know what your original
procedures were, especially the nature of the ship's computer's
anti-hijack program.  

> What with the problem of =
> communications delay, how could it be established that a vessel is =
> actually in default and thus subject to repossession.  

"No, no, we sent a check by x-boat!  We're not in default anymore! 
Here's a copy of the check!  And if you don't accept that and put your
guns away, I'm going to have you charged with piracy and hijacking when
we jump out at Lanth."  It's a problem, isn't it? 

> When you buy a =
> ship "on time" are there restrictions on where and how far away it can =
> be taken from the point of sale?  

It depends, but that could well be part of your financing agreement.

> Is repossession one of the penalties for violation of such stipulations? 

Probably not.  As a lawyer working in the corporate sector, I have some
idea how large purchase and loan contracts are drafted.  Certain issues
have to be covered under just about any legal system:  price; terms of
payment (amount, time, place; nature of payment (i.e., cash, kind,
etc.)); security arrangements; third-party financing; insurance (really
part of security); remedies for non-performance; and a few things that
I'm forgetting because it's late or intentionally leaving out because
they're irrelevant to this discussion.  

Non-performance may have several levels, the most serious being
default.  Default would trigger the right to repossess.  Leaving the
subsector might be a default; might not.
 
> Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could =

We do talk about this from time to time on the list.  I'll let the
experts take over.  It seems to me that all of these ideas have been
kicked around.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:09:49 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Tech question

Firstly, thanks to Mark Cook for providing some data on diving gas
mixes. (There had to be a diving instructor on this list!).

Walt Smith wrote :-
> How do these temperatures and pressures compare with those
> involved with liquid hydrogen operations?

Substance	melting point	boiling point
Hydrogen	-259		-252
Nitrogen	-210		-196
Oxygen		-219		-183 
(values are in degrees Celsius at one atmosphere ambient pressure).

Contemporary storage systems for LH2 range in pressurisation from 2.5 to
1000 atmospheres (space shuttle LH2 tanks at the low end to a high
density system for an experimental hydrogen propelled truck).
	Most commercially available tanks for LH2 are pressurised to 11
atmospheres, LOX/LN2 around 7-8. Typically a gas/liquid mixture is
stored (the temp inside a LOX tank is -160 C) to keep the mass of the
tank down (less insulation).

Another Ob Trav :-
The implication from MT descriptions of portable life support systems
for space suits is that ultracompressed gas tankage is routine
(superdense oxygen tanks at TL 12 and bonded superdense tanks at TL
14?). Either that or liquid oxygen is stored and bled into the system to
replenish spent gas (and remove excess water vapour, CO2, and heat).
Pretty nifty tech, in any case.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:09:54 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Sophontology 101

Chris Seamans wrote :-
> Ummm... Okay. I'll go back to my cage now. Everyone else gets to have their
> nitpicks, biology, physics, what have you. I'm a folklore geek. ;)

Fair enough (though the nitpicking is sort of useful, even if it's an
education in e-debating - if there is such a thing). Perhaps FAQs should
be compiled on various topics to prevent repetition on a lot of gearhead
points. 

Now Chris, you have implied that you are one of the people who could
supply some good info for 'Sophontology 101'. (Weave a good thread? What
is the proper term for this sort of thing?)

> Come on, it's time for the resident social scientists to educate the
> unenlightened masses! You know you want to...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:39:17 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Sophontology 101

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
To: TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:13 AM
Subject: Re : Sophontology 101


>Chris Seamans wrote :-


>Now Chris, you have implied that you are one of the people who could
>supply some good info for 'Sophontology 101'. (Weave a good thread? What
>is the proper term for this sort of thing?)
>
>> Come on, it's time for the resident social scientists to educate the
>> unenlightened masses! You know you want to...


Sure. If / when the discussion goes that way I'd love to, both in the realm
of folklore and popular culture.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:05:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Myth/Legend

>It's not an urban legend because it's untrue, it's an urban legend because
>of the way it's been transmitted.
>
>Ummm... Okay. I'll go back to my cage now. Everyone else gets to have their
>nitpicks, biology, physics, what have you. I'm a folklore geek. ;)

To historians, it is an urban MYTH, not an urban LEGEND, because of the
lack of a kernel of truth...

Myth is untrue
Legend is beased upon truth, but may be blown out of proportion.

Its URBAN because of the dissemination methods.

Bill Gates greed is an urban legend

Bill gates homosexuality is an urban myth, apparently... there is no
eveidence it is true...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:05:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Equitorial Settlement

>And a last thought, aren't there advantages in launching rockets from
>locations near the Equator?  Would this still apply in a grav-oriented
>society?  Would it tend to encourage starports and early colonies to be
>located near the equator?  Would this result in 'tropical' climates in many
>smaller colonies, with limited seasonal variations, even when the all year
>round climate differs drastically from Earth norms?  Just a thought.
>
Considering the newest launch site to be added to NASA's roster is only a
few hundred miles from Anchorage, which is at ~61 N, maybe not. However,
for equitorial orbits, equitorial launch has, I've read, two advantages:
1) Higher initial rotational velocity if launching in direction of rotation.
2) less fuel needed for narrowing the orbit to equitorial.

Polar orbits are better lauched away from the equator, for the lower
initial rotational velocity, from what I've read.

IMTU, main starports tend to be on or near equators where habitability
exists, but secondary ports (see also Invasion Earth) are more likelyto be
non-equitorial. According to IE, Eath has AECO in NW africa, and Phoenix
(arizona). IMTU, there is also Scout Base Kodiak, on Kodiak Island.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re BD

>Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could =
>a numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force =
>use to stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command =
>detonated mines to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure =
>hoses of salt water with electric currents run through them to knock =
>them down and possibly short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way =
>to drop them into a hole and then filling the hole with cement?  How =
>about spraying them with some kind of quick setting super epoxy that =
>would render them immobile?  Those are the only ideas I have and and I =
>admit some are a bit off the wall.  Anyone have any other thoughts?      =

Salt water is unlikely to be effective: BD is environmentally sealed. Based
upon TD, + or - 2-5 atm...

How about this one: straw over traditional Bear traps, sized up a bit.
Won't hurt the troopie, but may slow him down. BTB, some of the traps that
HAVE been used have openings over 1.5 feet, 150 lbs bite force, and chains
and structure capable of over a ton of pull.... works like mines, but gives
you time to shoot them with glue, etc.

Another idea: Roll a stack of trees at them.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:23:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.

At 11:34 PM 7/15/99 -0700, Jesse the Meanie wrote:
>Todd does have a way of spoiling things for people like that.  I heard that
>he even goes around telling 6 year olds that Santa Claus and the Easter
>Bunny are fakes!!  

What?  <whimper>

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:25:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

At 03:17 AM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:

>It also helps if the viewer thinks it might just be real. A local paper did
>a review of the film and like 1/3rd of it was "ways you can tell that this
>movie isn't a true story."

Well , the iterview with the cast members on MTV was a big tip off...
Look, i don't believe that Michael Douglas was ever President, but that
doesn't stop me from thinking _The American President_ is one of my
favorite movies.

_TBWP_ has a wonderfully realistic style, I'll accept it as that, and
phooey to all those who can't understand that it's just a damn(ed) movie.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:29:44 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

(Please note the addition of the OFF-TOPIC notation to the header.)

What I've heard of this film [besides the fact that it's enough to give
even our local Badass Sniper(tm) the shivering willies] seems to suggest
that the "statute of limitations" has finally run out on the War of the
Worlds...  that is, popular media is no longer quite as reluctant to
present frightening fiction as fact for fear of setting off panic and mass
hysteria.

Or perhaps, with shows like JERRY SPRINGER, COPS, pro wrestling, and the
latest Fox special MORE STUFF BLOWING UP ON VIDEO, the line between reality
and entertainment has simply gotten too blurred to tell anymore.



- --------------
Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:11:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Trav software

"William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com> writes:

>port it to odd ball OS's - such as MacOS (currently use) or Amiga Dos (used
>to use). This is just about as least a common denominator as you can get and

There is some MacOS Traveller software at http://www.bits.org.uk/ - follow
the links on the products page. The demo versions are fully operational but
have no save/print.

Additionally, some more of Rob Prior's MacOS Traveller material is at my
site http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ - mainly hypercard stacks.

Rob was planning to complete Metator the detailed planet design system he
previewed in late 97 this summer, IIRC. He was planning to add in the First
In design sequence.

Dom


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:13:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>And whoever the ...uh... sophont was that manipulated the Impies into
>developing Virus was truly _brilliant_!  This one development (along
>with the "Empress Wave") brought down nearly _all_ interstellar
>cultures, with _one_ major exception....

Mister wavy tentacles, we're closer to you than the Vargr. Fancy a Grand
Fleet Exercise?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:39:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)

"Christopher E. Webb" <cwebb@ctos.com> write:
>Anyone have any idea what the mix of Traveller flavors in play on the TML
>is?  I recall that T4 seemed to be somewhat dominant when I was last
>lurking on the TML 18 months ago, but a lot of GT seems to be receiving
>discussion now.

I play T4 with Marc's T5 draft material, plus High Guard for Starships.

I'm starting to move towards GT but I find GURPS slightly clunky compared
to T4 or MT. My main interest in it is because I have to run it at cons
late this year and newer BITS material is likely to need GT support.

The published GT material is generally of very high standard - Far Trader
is one of the best Traveller books, period.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

Howdy!

The Washington Post ran a review today (July 16). The review seemed
impressed, especially by how _scary_ it was...

Unfortunately, the review available online is much more concise than
the print version. Oh well...

Sounds intersting...

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:51:05 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

At 11:51 PM 7/15/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Excuse my apparent ignorance (and it IS on my part) where is the canon
>reference to depressurizing during combat located? I am really
>interested since I seem to have overlooked this or forgotten it. Thanks.
>

        _The Traveller Book_, Starship Combat section.  While I do not have
in front of me, it says that all Starships normally depressurize the vessel
prior to combat to avoid explosive decompression effects from battle damage.
Further, it says it takes one turn to do so.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:25:28 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: tech question (really, an example of an urban legend)

The Roc wrote :-
<with regard to the recent problems with the water supply in Sydney,
Australia> :-

> Oh!  I forgot about that!!  And people did die from that one too!! 

No, no, no, no, no! (I thought I wouldn't have to use the mantra too
often on this list, just at work to the surgeons and some of the more
rabid physicians. Oh, well...).

Bad memes like this must be stopped before they have a chance to spread
too far... too late in this case?

A very few people got good doses of food poisoning. There were NO
fatalities. Fortunately a secondary epidemic of malignant litigation
appears to have been contained (Factoid : NSW Australia is the second
most litigious territory in the world now. Sigh....). 
	Perhaps you are confused with the unfortunate events that took place at
Wallis Lake in northern NSW, where several people died from (bacterial
and viral) hepatitis caught from oysters grown in sewage-contaminated
water. The fatalities occurred in elderly or already sick people with
essentially poor physiological reserve.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
[Sydney, NSW].

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:33:15 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

At 22:18 15/07/1999 -0400, you "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net> wrote:

<snip>

Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could a
numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force use to
stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command detonated mines
to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure hoses of salt water
with electric currents run through them to knock them down and possibly
short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way to drop them into a hole
and then filling the hole with cement?  How about spraying them with some
kind of quick setting super epoxy that would render them immobile?  Those
are the only ideas I have and and I admit some are a bit off the wall.
Anyone have any other thoughts?       

Most of those are either easy to spot, only work close in or require
too much vulnerable infrastructure.

At twentieth century tech, I'd go for an anti tank gun.

Even just a 40mm AA/AT gun. Your armour might not be penetrated
but your Marine is going to be lying on his back.

At close ranges, think of anything used anti-tank.
Not those concrete bollards or anti-tank ditches though.
Sticky bombs come to mind.

Your main problem is to stop them using their tech to attack from outside
your range.

So dress up in civilian clothes, use grenades, bombs and battleaxes.

Oh, and expect to die a lot.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:52:46 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Speaking of the Ancients -reply

I think it is safe to say that the pre-Ancient Droyne did have near-solar 
colonies hence some sort of stardrive (notice I did not say Jump Drive).  MT 
Referee's companion speaks of them possessing an Interstellar tech level.  
However, I would not agree that they had I widespread empire such as the 
Major Races (unlike the T4 novel).   Just a few scattered star systems that 
were within their tolerance level.  Which makes me want to set the homeworld 
in previously unknown space (eg Trojan Reaches).  But, where else but the 
Marches are there so many Ancient sites.  Traces of that civilization would 
have been obliterated by the Ancients coming onto the scene - as the Young 
Turks that they were formally rewriting Droyne history in their own image.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:05:27 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

At 10:08 PM 7/15/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>>Subject: Enclosed Bays
>>
>>	One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
>>ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
>>somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
>>entering combat situations. So, the "added expense" of pumps, tanks, ducts
>>and filters for ship's bays is a non-issue.  You already have enough to
>>handle the air in the whole ship.
>
>  I've argued that capability at least in warships, but it doesn't follow that 
>it's cheap or that a ship can do so for the docking bay that contains it.
>
>        Steven Hudson

        Well, unfortunately its canon as a capability even for Free Traders.
        Keep in mind, we're talking about a culture that has figured out how
to get around the limit of the speed of light, store cyro-cooled hydrogen,
build a fusion reactor small enough to power a car without safety issues and
manipulate the strong and weak nuclear forces and the force of gravity.
        Fluid dynamics ought to be a *cake walk*.
        The same thing with my soap-bubble airlock...  folks were commenting
about being worried about the electrical discharge from the
static-electrical charge used to maintain the bubble.  Well, we currently
routinely transfer people from helicopters in flight to steel decks of ships
everyday...  helo's are wonderful Van De Graff generators.  We have
phenomenally few problems, regardless of the plot of _Hunt for Red October_.
By TL 10, safely discharging the hull of a starship after it is through the
bubble-lock ought to be child's play.
        Worse, (he said pointing canon around indescriminately)
fighter-craft carriers and x-boat tenders exist.  The carriers have launch
tubes capable of putting a 50-ton Rampart into space every 30 seconds...
you aren't doing that with hatch doors and decompression of spaces.  The
tenders, I believe, can bring an X-boat on board for maint....  if it was a
dumb idea, x-boat tenders would be a spar with engines at one end, docking
collars at intervals and the bridge at the other.  That's not what they look
like (ask Jesse ;).
        For every 10dktons, you get a set of "doors" on your vessel or
station capable of allowing one vessel to launch per turn.  Fifteen minutes
to launch a starship.... presuming that the crew is ready to go at T:0, the
only thing that might take 15mins is decompressing the launch bay.  If it
takes 14 mins for the crew to do PFC's, then the only way to get out in one
minute is a bubble-lock...  whatever you want for YTU.
        Just some things to think about.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #866
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 867



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Myth/Legend
Re: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Re BD
Re: Enclosed Bays
RE: The Blair Witch Project.
RE: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: The Blair Witch Project. [spoiler]
RE: TML 3d club-Site update
Use [SPOILER] Please!!!
Re: Two Questions 
re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Equitorial Settlement
Re: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Two Questions 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:23:51 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Myth/Legend

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 5:05 AM
Subject: Myth/Legend


>To historians, it is an urban MYTH, not an urban LEGEND, because of the
>lack of a kernel of truth...


<wailing louder, gnashing teeth with more force>

I don't want to do this. I'm tired and as a result cranky. This is going to
take up considerable bandwidth. I'm going to sound like an arrogant know it
all.

Before we go on, I know that there's a difference between the term myth and
the term legend, with or without the prefix urban. If you simply corrected
me on that point everything would be just fine. I admit, I incorrectly used
the terms synonymously because it's much easier than defining "myth"
correctly and "legend" correctly and it didn't seem appropriate.

However, you emphasized the terms by capitalizing them, and then proceeded
to define them imprecisely and incorrectly. That irks me quite a bit.

>Myth is untrue


From the Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and
Legend (ISBN: 0-06-250511-4):

myth - "A story, presented as having actually occurred in a previous age,
explaining the cosmological and supernatural traits of a people, their gods,
heroes, cultural traits, religious beliefs, etc."

It goes on to further clarify the definition over the course of a page or
so. It has nothing to do with truth or fiction, even though myths are not
generally accepted as truth. To paraphrase George Laurence Gomme: myths are
the science of pre-scientific cultures.

It's not whether they're true or false, but the motifs, the themes and the
characters.

>Legend is beased upon truth, but may be blown out of proportion.


Nope. A legend is not always based on truth. Not by a long shot. From the
same source as the above definition:

legend - <I'll skip the bit about the religious origins of the word legend>
"Legend has since come to be used for a narrative supposedly based on fact,
with an inter-mixture of traditional materials, told about a person, place
or incident."

The entry goes on to explain the blurry distinction between myths and
legends. Legends are distinct from myths, some of them are based on
historical fact, but they don't have to have even a kernel of truth. It's
not the truth or lack thereof that defines a legend, it's the type of
narrative it is.

The distinction is blurry and sometimes the classification of a specific
narrative is hotly debated. There are examples of both myth and legend in
the stories of Hercules and King Arthur.

To further confuse everybody, there are also what folklorists call local
legends. These are narratives that are attached to a specific place, often
explaining how the place came to be, or how the place got its name. Some of
these are sort of like little mini-myths, as they may include gods, mythic
heroes and other attributes of myths.

There's a broad type as well, the folktale, which is vague and refers to
just about anything that's orally transmitted. It's been specifically kept
all-inclusive to serve as a convenient form of shorthand. If I said, "I
collected 200 folktales in one week in Philadelphia's Fishtown," it means
that I collected 200 jokes, stories, legends, and other "straight"
narratives.

>Its URBAN because of the dissemination methods.


Nope. The vast majority of urban legends are transmitted orally, which is
the same vector that's been used for as long as there's been spoken
language. The distinction of "urban" is kind of false. It has more to do
with the internal workings of the folklore community than anything else.

Granted, some are now transmitted via fax, some are transmitted via email,
but both of these are relatively recent developments that combine the
convenience of more or less instant communication with the written word. A
number folklorists have broadened the concept of oral tradition to include
fax and email, since sending a folktale along is as simple as forwarding it
or running it through the fax. Other methods of instant duplication, such as
mimeograph machines and photocopiers are often included to some extent as
well. Not all of the folklore that is transmitted by these technological
surrogates are considered folktales.

Modern day legends are called urban legends because they exist despite the
proliferation of newspapers, radio and television in the industrialized
world. At the time when the study of the more modern folktales started in
America, it was something of a "revolution" in the field. Very few academics
deemed it worthwhile to study modern legends such as the hookman, babysitter
legends and the like.

It was much more acceptable to study rural American folktales. Urban and
suburban types were sort of thought to be "above" the transmission of
folktales. So a term was invented to segregate the study of urban legends
from the more traditional earthy rural legends that were much more
fashionable. Traditional folklorists kind of thought of these legends as
being little more than rumors, of no importance to the folklore community.
It wasn't as direct and snobbish as it sounds, really. It was just the
general attitude of the time.

The term was popularized by the author Jan Harold Brunvand, who is now seen
as the "patron saint" of the study of urban legends. He started with "The
Vanishing Hitchhiker: American Urban Legends and Their Meanings" (ISBN
0-393-95169-3), which is something of a dry scholarly work. Through his
newspaper column, he discovered that people were really quite interested in
whether or not the story they heard about the spider eggs in the Bubble Yum
was true, or if Mikey really *did* die from mixing Pop-Rocks and Coca-Cola.

He also found out that a couple of urban legends actually were true, despite
the fact that they fit neatly into the big book of folklore motifs. As his
books progressed they became less and less academic, and they began to focus
more on the new stories that fans sent in and his attempts to track down the
truth behind them.

The internet, bulletin boards and the various computer networks offered him
a venue to find facts about the origins of the legends that he could use to
track them down. He became more interested in computer folklore after being
exposed to it, since it was so similar to mimeographed and photocopied
"xerox lore," and since so many traditional urban legends were being adapted
for transmission via email. His interest took on a life of its own and led
to the boom in popularity of tracking urban legends on the internet.

>Bill Gates greed is an urban legend


Only in a very indirect sense. His vast wealth and Microsoft's ruthless and
questionable business practices and don't need to circulate orally. For
example,

>Bill gates homosexuality is an urban myth, apparently... there is no
>eveidence it is true...


It's not a myth according to any definition I've ever seen, and even if it
was it wouldn't be because there's no evidence as to whether or not it's
true.

Okay. I've had enough. If anybody would really like to discuss the
definitions of the terms myth and legend at greater length I'd be glad to do
so in private email. I've already taken up enough bandwidth on the list.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:44:54 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)

"Christopher E. Webb" <cwebb@ctos.com> write:
>Anyone have any idea what the mix of Traveller flavors in play on the TML
>is?  I recall that T4 seemed to be somewhat dominant when I was last
>lurking on the TML 18 months ago, but a lot of GT seems to be receiving
>discussion now.

Up until very recently, my group played Marc's T5 rules. However, progress in
those rules has been so slow that I'm switching my group back to MT rules. I own
two sets of CT rules, MT, and the T5 stuff. Of these, MT is the best set of
integrated rules, IMO.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:50:46 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Re BD

At 05:11 16/07/1999 -0400, William F. Hostman wrote:
>>Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could =
>>a numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force =
>>use to stop a squad in battle dress.

<snip>

>Another idea: Roll a stack of trees at them.

Or have two logs attached to trees. Swing them together as the Marine
walks past and crush him between them.

Or fly over using stealth technology hangliders (branches and hides)
and drop rocks on them

Or...

<Ow! It was 'im what started it miss! Honest!>

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:20:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

<me>
>       One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
>ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
>somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
>entering combat situations. So, the "added expense" of pumps, tanks,
>and filters for ship's bays is a non-issue.  You already have enough to
>handle the air in the whole ship.
</me>
<Steve Hudson>
  I've argued that capability at least in warships, but it doesn't follow
it's cheap or that a ship can do so for the docking bay that contains it.
</Steve Hudson>

My argument wasn't that it was cheap, but that despite the expense the
capability is (canonically) installed on all starships to make them combat
worthy. This being the case, venting and refilling bays shouldn't be a
problem.  

Frankie wondered whether one might vent the atmosphere and regenerate it
instead of storing and releasing.  This is a possibility, but the argument
still holds: If you can vent and regenerate the ship's entire atmosphere
then doing so for an enclosed bay should be no trouble.

I agree with Micheal V. that we often under-estimate the technological
capabilities of the Imperium.  I'm sure Leonardo Da Vinchi had a engineer
buddy who kept pestering him about technicalities with his flying machine 
idea: 

"It'll *never* work.  Do you *know* what kind of loads you'll be
creating?"

"Maybe someone will come up with stronger materials"

"But you have to be realistic!  Our best metals come *nowhere near* having
enough strength or lightness!  Even with improvements in smithing
technology, steel will always be too heavy!" 

"Maybe someone will come up with a different material."

"Impossible, we've discovered all the basic substances there are.  Woods
are *way* too weak, metals are *way* too heavy."

"There could be light metals we haven't found yet."

"Light metals?  It goes against *everything* we know of physics!"

The point is that alot of the nitpicks people come up with on this list to
say that ideas are impossible/improbable/implausible are engineering
problems disguised as physical limitations by our present ignorance of
future physics.  And some are mere engineering problems.

Ciao,
Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:24:00 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.

Sounds like the paper went in thinking it was a true documentary as well :)
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Chris
> Seamans
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 12:18 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 2:18 AM
> Subject: RE: The Blair Witch Project.
>
>
> >On a serious note, you're talking about "the suspension of
> disbelief".  If
> a
> >flim maker can suspend the disbelief of the audience for the
> amount of time
> >that they're in the theater, then they have truly done their job.
>
> It also helps if the viewer thinks it might just be real. A local
> paper did
> a review of the film and like 1/3rd of it was "ways you can tell that this
> movie isn't a true story."
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:36:52 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

Thanks for adding the OT :)

The line between reality and entertainment has another recent example along
the lines of War of the Worlds.  Anyone in the US catch that TV special
maybe six months ago or more that was touted as real videotape of the events
leading up to a disappearence ala TBWP?  Nowhere in the TV adverts leading
up to it did it EVER mention that it was a teleplay.  As it progressed, I
was thinking "Bullshit.  There's no way >>insert an event<< could happen
like that with someone camcorder'ing away".  The final kicker was when the
alien probe flew through the front door and zipped down the hall.  TOTAL,
and I mean TOTAL, Hollywood lens flare with lens reflections and everything.
Exactly like the flares in Lightwave.  Real cameras tend not to do that
these days.  A camcorder will wash out and ghost before it shows a Hollywood
flare like that.  So anyway, when the special ends (and STILL nowhere during
the presentation did they mention it was a teleplay, it was still hyped as
real) the credits roll and low-and-behold you get a full list of actors,
including "Grey alien #1" etc.  I just KNOW that there were people who
didn't pick up on the production clues during the show, and they were
probably too busy firing up their computers to hit the internet and proclaim
proof of ET life existed, to notice the credits roll.

/ramble mode

I need some caffeine and need to head off to work :)

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kelly
> St.Clair
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 3:30 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
>
>
> (Please note the addition of the OFF-TOPIC notation to the header.)
>
> What I've heard of this film [besides the fact that it's enough to give
> even our local Badass Sniper(tm) the shivering willies] seems to suggest
> that the "statute of limitations" has finally run out on the War of the
> Worlds...  that is, popular media is no longer quite as reluctant to
> present frightening fiction as fact for fear of setting off panic and mass
> hysteria.
>
> Or perhaps, with shows like JERRY SPRINGER, COPS, pro wrestling, and the
> latest Fox special MORE STUFF BLOWING UP ON VIDEO, the line
> between reality
> and entertainment has simply gotten too blurred to tell anymore.
>
>
>
> --------------
> Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.
>  At last we
> kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:26:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project. [spoiler]

HEY!  Some don't know that!  [Spoiler] please.

bloo



Paul Schirf wrote:

> > I haven't seen the movie but I did see an underground
> > copy of the original tape that was found. Pretty scary stuff......
>
> hehe... Sorry to ruin it for you, but.... it's ALL fiction.
>
> http://www.reel.com/cgi-bin/nph-reel.exe?OBJECT=/events/reviews15.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:42:25 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update

OUTSTANDING progression!  See that guys?  Three pictures later and already a
world of difference.  Good job!  Now you just need to add some antenna
fairings and turn the ambient light down to 5% or less (hope you have that
option!!!).  There is VERY little ambient light in space.  You may get a
little blue fill from a planets surface if you're in orbit, or you can add a
little bit of colored light from a nebula background as well, but it's
mainly direct, harsh sunlight with no ambient scatter.

Keep it up!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> Peters
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 12:05 AM
> To: TML
> Subject: TML 3d club-Site update
>
>
> I replaced the scout/courier picture on my site with a new one. I
> completely rebuilt the model after looking at the one on Jesse's site.
> It's not perfect yet, but it's getting better. Location to art page
> below
>
> http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm
>
> Let me know what you think off list. Sorry to those of you that think
> this is a waste of bandwidth!
> --
> Mike Peters
> travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:32:39 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Use [SPOILER] Please!!!

I asked as soon as Doug mentioned it, yet you all
continue on RUINING the film for those who don't
already know.

SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Ob Trav.  Some of you sound a lot like Vargr at
a movie, talking to the screen, ruining the enjoyment
of others, and spoiling the end!  The Hiver directors
of movies in the OTU probably need to labell
them "Don't See This Film With Vargr!"

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:30:01 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

In a message dated 7/15/99 10:28:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
phelpsd@gate.net writes:

<< Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could a 
numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force use to 
stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command detonated mines 
to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure hoses of salt water with 
electric currents run through them to knock them down and possibly short 
their circuitry?  What about figuring a way to drop them into a hole and then 
filling the hole with cement?  How about spraying them with some kind of 
quick setting super epoxy that would render them immobile? >>

	You are one awesome dude,   I like your campaign idea and this list 
of nasty tricks!   How about a net made of thick cables which is attached to 
a backhoe.  Just hoist the BD soldier up and smash him repeatedly against a 
wall.  
	  But also, if the defenders have access to military weapons, light 
anti-tank weapons of almost any TL have a good chance of taking out BD 
troops, and probably do less collateral damage than the BD plasma weapons.

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:42:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

The Tvarchedl' agent (Steven Hudson) rambles:

>  Lose most of the Sphere to the Impies (who actually are made to look
>attractive compared to you vermin, except that they're adjacent to us),
>and then have Terra devastated and occupied (some master race...) - fine,
>the Imps are now confident that you're halfwits and economically crippled
>to boot; so what do you do for an encore?

That is where your infantile mind tricks are flawed - our crash eugenics
programmes instigated when we were annexed by the Vilani in 588 has been
breeding a natural immunity to your mindpowers which has concealed our
master plan from you! Soon, using the spur of Terra to encourage our
forces, we will liberate the whole sphere. Even as we speak, a crack team
of game designers is rewriting Invasion: Earth to allow us to win. This,
coupled with the fall of the Imperium to Tech Level 12 since it was GURPSed
leads us to believe that we have a six to twelve month window of
opportunity to exploit our TL14 advantage before SJG publish anything on
the Rim...

>  But wait - we're already supposed to know your answer :>

No. you're supposed to think you know our answer. Mwahaha!

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:59:39 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> II.  The Rise of Grandfather and his children
> -Outlines grandfather's rise against the ruling orders and carve a new
path
> for himself.  Creates clones of himself (christens them children) and
> launches the Droyne into higher stages of civilization.

I think that a careful explanation is in order here.  Was the entire race
uplifted?  Are just the clones considered Children?  Does the term Ancients
apply only to the single race, or are there others mixed in so that it is
the "time period" that is considered when applying the term?

I'm still suspicious of the idea that Grandfather was a freak or a mule, to
use Asimov's term.  Seems more plausible that he was a seed casts by another
race or entity.  Of course, I will admit that I have visions of Puppeteers
dancing in my head.  Is his "origin" cast in concrete or open to discussion?

- -Colin

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:10:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Equitorial Settlement

William F. Hostman wrote:
> 
> >And a last thought, aren't there advantages in launching rockets from
> >locations near the Equator?  Would this still apply in a grav-oriented
> >society?  Would it tend to encourage starports and early colonies to be
> >located near the equator?  Would this result in 'tropical' climates in many
> >smaller colonies, with limited seasonal variations, even when the all year
> >round climate differs drastically from Earth norms?  Just a thought.
> >
> Considering the newest launch site to be added to NASA's roster is only a
> few hundred miles from Anchorage, which is at ~61 N, maybe not. However,
> for equitorial orbits, equitorial launch has, I've read, two advantages:
> 1) Higher initial rotational velocity if launching in direction of rotation.
> 2) less fuel needed for narrowing the orbit to equitorial.
> 
> Polar orbits are better lauched away from the equator, for the lower
> initial rotational velocity, from what I've read.

Hence NASA's newest launch site... the pole, is actually the ideal polar
orbit launch site, but there are obvious drawbacks to that exact site.

Equatorial launch sites are the lowest energy, hence highest payload,
sites to launch to geosynchronous orbits and equatorial orbits. You have
the highest rotational velocity to add to the launch speed, and every
erg counts when there's a 3 billon dollar comms satellite yoiu're
putting up.

That's why ArianeSpace's launch site is where it is, and why several
African nations, if they ever get their political and infrastructure
houses in order could become quite wealthy from being launch sites.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:57:56 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

At 16:34 15.07.99 -0700, you wrote:
>The discussion lately around Droyne and the Ancients show that the Ancients 
>aren't so much a dead issue.  Would anyone like to contribute to a 
>discussion with the aim of publishing an Ancient sourcebook of some kind? 
>(Pending approval from Marc)  I have submitted a rough outline such a 
>sourcebook.
Id like to contribute, as my internet contribution to Traveller mainly
consists of
collected information on the Ancients, and can be seen at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061/

If you still need writers, contact me. Id be interested.

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:34:28 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

Actually I still feel that there is room for expansion on the Ancients
and Grandfather. I don't have the DGP stuff so I'm not sure how set in
concrete they were, but the original explanation for Grandfather came
from Grandfather! Who's to say if he was telling the truth or not? And
why is he hiding in a pocket universe? The explanation, that he's bored
with the universe, sounds a bit shakey to me.

Sword Worlder wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> > II.  The Rise of Grandfather and his children
> > -Outlines grandfather's rise against the ruling orders and carve a new
> path
> > for himself.  Creates clones of himself (christens them children) and
> > launches the Droyne into higher stages of civilization.
> 
> I think that a careful explanation is in order here.  Was the entire race
> uplifted?  Are just the clones considered Children?  Does the term Ancients
> apply only to the single race, or are there others mixed in so that it is
> the "time period" that is considered when applying the term?
> 
> I'm still suspicious of the idea that Grandfather was a freak or a mule, to
> use Asimov's term.  Seems more plausible that he was a seed casts by another
> race or entity.  Of course, I will admit that I have visions of Puppeteers
> dancing in my head.  Is his "origin" cast in concrete or open to discussion?
> 
> -Colin
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The TRAVELLER Domain
> http://www.downport.com
> Colin Michael, Webslinger

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Daniel Phelps wrote:

> I've got a couple of questions for the list. Has anyone run a hybrid merchant
> \mercenary scenario where the PCs are the repo-men repossessing
> starships.  How would that work under Imperial Law.  Obviously the
> intent is to take possession of a defaulted ship with little or no
> damage to the vessel.  How would you repo one and what counter measures
> could be taken to prevent repossession.  What with the problem of
> communications delay, how could it be established that a vessel is
> actually in default and thus subject to repossession.  When you buy a
> ship "on time" are there restrictions on where and how far away it can
> be taken from the point of sale?  Is repossession one of the penalties
> for violation of such stipulations?  

I've run such "repo man" scenarios--typically, they operate either as
freelancers (with their own ship) or as representatives of a megacorp that
finances ships (with a company ship.) The ships used for such purposes are
typically known as "houndships" IMTU. Houndships are typically small (100
tons), fast (3 or 4 G, Jump-2 to 4) and well-armed (triple laser turret)
in order to efficiently pursue their quarry, with EM masking and a good
computer/communications array. They feature a few extra double-occupancy
staterooms for boarding troops.
	Typically, repo-ing ships is a nonviolent exercise, depending more
on detective work (checking port records and logged flight plans, staking
out likely destinations) and stealth & guile (sneaking on board the craft
to be repo'd while the crew is away or at minimum strength.) Taking the
craft back is of primary importance, punishing the delinquent owner is
secondary. An intact ship whose crew "got away" is far preferable to a
ship that takes severe damage due to the repo/capture operation.
	Armed houndships typically only engage unarmed or lightly-armed
craft: the idea is to stop an unarmed ship with the threat of violence
rather than engaging in a pitched battle. Houndships are not designed as
line combat craft, and couldn't stand in battle against a craft outfitted
as a pirate/assault ship, but can do fine against a lightly armed seeker
or free trader.
	In many ways operations are similar to pirate/privateer
operations, but with more concern for the condition of the ship.
	Type A and B starports maintain a shipping registry which lists
all ships in the subsector posted delinquent by a financial institution,
their last known location, and ship description, along with other
information.
	Anti-repo procedures are fairly similar to full-time anti-hijack
procedures: extensive use of identity verification and password-protected
access to starship functions, running anti-hijack programs in likely repo
situations. Modifications to the ship's transponder and forged registry
papers are difficult, but can create a new "identity" for the craft. The
most common strategy, though, is skipping the subsector and heading for
non-Imperial space; in many cases, a permanent move by necessity. Since
megacorps aren't necessarily limited by Imperial boundaries, a houndship
crew might operate outside of Imperial space specifically to pursue
delinquent ships--but will need to return periodically to update its ship
listings.
	There is an article in an old JTAS on this subject: _Giving the
Bank a Fighting Chance_ by Jolly Blackburn (who now does the _KNIGHTS OF
THE DINNER TABLE_ comic) in JTAS # 16. I have used some information from
that article for this response.

> Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could a
> numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force use
> to stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command detonated
> mines to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure hoses of salt
> water with electric currents run through them to knock them down and
> possibly short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way to drop them
> into a hole and then filling the hole with cement?  How about spraying
> them with some kind of quick setting super epoxy that would render them
> immobile?  Those are the only ideas I have and and I admit some are a
> bit off the wall.  Anyone have any other thoughts?       
> 
Strategies would be fairly similar to anti-tank tactics used by defenders
without armor, and will doubtless be defensive rather than offensive in
nature, since most (like the examples above) are based on prepared traps,
defenses, and positions. 

High-pressure hoses wouldn't do much: battledress suits are well-insulated
and would not "short out" so easily. Cement and epoxy are possible but
kind of off-the-wall: cement doesn't harden instantly, and a
muscle-amplified suit might break a quick-setting epoxy (you'd gum up its
sensors and equipment, though...)

The basic strategy would be to lure battledress troops into an enclosed
area, where their superior mobility is lessened and their long-range
weapons less useful, and then blow something up at them. Battledress is
tough (assuming the existence of Marine commando uber-battledress in your
Traveller universe) but a lot of weapons will punch through it, including
TL7/8 tank guns and anti-tank missiles. Remotely operated and concealed
ATGM/ATG sites, capable of providing supporting fire for each other (so
ATGM stand A can attack while the battledress troops are coating ATGM
stand B with high-energy plasma) can make life rough for battledress
troops, and enough of this kind of harassment can degrade their strength a
great deal.

Figuring out some way to distract, harass or otherwise make life rough for
the battledress troopers (smoke, firebombs to harass, distract and screw
up IR/thermal-imaging, launching paint or glue or groat poop to gum up
battledres systems) will slow them down and make life easier for your
camouflaged but probably unarmored ATGM crews. Battledress troops have
tremendous shock effect due to their mobility, but if you can limit or
deny their mobility they become less effetive--and they make lousy
stationary gun emplacements. A couple dozen ATGM's (or many
gun/artillery/MRL rounds) is cheaper than one battledress-equipped
soldier, and thus it makes sense to dump all the fire you can on an
exposed battledress trooper.

Another assumption is that it is possible to detect the field generated by
grav vehicles, and create grav-sensitive "Bouncing Betty" style mines
(proximity fused) which make battledress troops in flight packs want to
walk on the ground, where contact mines, ATGM's and ATG's, and other
lower-tech weapons can track them.  Or you can just drop a building on
them...

- --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #867
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 868



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: Speaking of Ancients
RE: TML 3d club-Site update
Re: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: tech question
Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)
Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)
Starports
Re: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid
Re: TML 3d club-Site update
RE: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: Electricity
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Water politics, was:Re: tech question
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: Two Questions
On the nature of Jump Space. [Long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:38:34 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

ROFLMAO!

Where's LeRoy now? 

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> The Tvarchedl' agent (Steven Hudson) rambles:
> 
> >  Lose most of the Sphere to the Impies (who actually are made to look
> >attractive compared to you vermin, except that they're adjacent to us),
> >and then have Terra devastated and occupied (some master race...) - fine,
> >the Imps are now confident that you're halfwits and economically crippled
> >to boot; so what do you do for an encore?
> 
> That is where your infantile mind tricks are flawed - our crash eugenics
> programmes instigated when we were annexed by the Vilani in 588 has been
> breeding a natural immunity to your mindpowers which has concealed our
> master plan from you! Soon, using the spur of Terra to encourage our
> forces, we will liberate the whole sphere. Even as we speak, a crack team
> of game designers is rewriting Invasion: Earth to allow us to win. This,
> coupled with the fall of the Imperium to Tech Level 12 since it was GURPSed
> leads us to believe that we have a six to twelve month window of
> opportunity to exploit our TL14 advantage before SJG publish anything on
> the Rim...
> 
> >  But wait - we're already supposed to know your answer :>
> 
> No. you're supposed to think you know our answer. Mwahaha!
> 
> Dom
> 
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
> "In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
> Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
>   see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
>                   Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
> Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:00:53 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

I don't see the "children" of Grandfather to be true
clones, but something "lesser" - otherwise they
would have been more of a threat during the final
war.  Perhaps creating an equal is the one thing
that he hasn't been able to achieve?

> The explanation, that he's bored with the universe, 
> sounds a bit shakey to me.


I've used the idea that he realized that a "natural"
development of the other races would be more 
interesting and beneficial to the universe as a
whole than the projects created by his "children".

Perhaps he's waiting for some (or many) races
to get to the point where we can share the
universe with him / converse with him as "equals", 
as opposed to "lesser beings" - which he realized
would never happen unless we are allowed to
mature on our own...  Or he's waiting for more 
"freaks like himself" to appear and join him.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:14:14 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update

At 08:42 AM 7/16/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>OUTSTANDING progression!  See that guys?  Three pictures later and already a
>world of difference.  Good job!  Now you just need to add some antenna
>fairings and turn the ambient light down to 5% or less (hope you have that
>option!!!).  There is VERY little ambient light in space.  You may get a
>little blue fill from a planets surface if you're in orbit, or you can add a
>little bit of colored light from a nebula background as well, but it's
>mainly direct, harsh sunlight with no ambient scatter.
>
>Keep it up!
>Jesse

        I was just impressed by the detailing level...  the warning signs
around the thrusters, the notching on the iris-valve hatch door...  gorgeous
work.  I Are Impressed.

        I really ought to figure out POV-ray some time...  <sigh>  When I
have some time.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:11:49 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

All possible, Paul. My point is that Grandfather's history and
motivations are still open to interpretaion since the only source (I
know of) is from Grandfather him self to the characters in :Secret of
the Ancients". This leaves plenty of room for expansion, in my opinion!
What IS Grandfather NOT telling?!!!! And how much of what he has told is
true? May be HE BELIEVES that he spontaniously came into existance, but
does this make it true?

See, plenty of room for expansion on the theme.

Paul Schirf wrote:
> 
> I don't see the "children" of Grandfather to be true
> clones, but something "lesser" - otherwise they
> would have been more of a threat during the final
> war.  Perhaps creating an equal is the one thing
> that he hasn't been able to achieve?
> 
> > The explanation, that he's bored with the universe,
> > sounds a bit shakey to me.
> 
> I've used the idea that he realized that a "natural"
> development of the other races would be more
> interesting and beneficial to the universe as a
> whole than the projects created by his "children".
> 
> Perhaps he's waiting for some (or many) races
> to get to the point where we can share the
> universe with him / converse with him as "equals",
> as opposed to "lesser beings" - which he realized
> would never happen unless we are allowed to
> mature on our own...  Or he's waiting for more
> "freaks like himself" to appear and join him.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:48:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.raincom (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 7/15/99 4:22:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> dasmart@lucent.com writes:
>
> << 
>  Although the rover isn't a true "nano"-device because of its size
>  (someone at NASA doesn't know the meaning of the word "nano"),
>  it's still pretty cool. >>
>
> Actually, the NASA use is rather a better use of the word-element nano- than 
> we typically see.   Nano- comes from the Greek word "nanos"  which means a 
> dwarf or midget.  

Doesn't matter. The *prefix* "nano-: is *defined* as "1e-9". That is,
one-billionth (US). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:50:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> *Small* losses, yes. Not large ones. Consider that "100 tons" is 13,500
> cubic meters. A "mere" 1% loss is 13.5 cubic meters of air. 
>
> Also, if you store the atmosphere at 100 atm pressure, that means you
> need 1 dT of volume *inside* the storage tank for every 100 dt of space
> in the bay. And that tank is resisting a force of almost 27,400 *tons*
> attempting to break it open. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
> How do these temperatures and pressures compare with those
> involved with liquid hydrogen operations? 
>
> If they are similar, this would show the presence of tech that can
> handle the requirements of the X-Boat tender design.

The situation with LH2 is *quite* different. It's handled as a
*liquid*. The pressures involved are modest, except for the high speed
pumps used to feed LH2 to the J-drive. The only "pressure" in the tanks
will be from the *weight* of the LH2. They'll probably have a from a
few psi to 1 atm of gas pressure above the surface of the liquid. 

The temperatures are mostly a matter of insulating things so the LH2
*stays* cold. *Producing* LH2 requires getting rid of large amounts of
heat, but that's (hopefully) something the radiators can handle.
*Using* LH2 isn't a problem, because the places it's used (fusion
reactors, and drives) are *producing* lots of energy, and thus
"pre-heating" the gas is easy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Who has to look back to the good old days, in Victoria gas supplies were off
> for days when the sole supplier had an explosion in its gas generating
> plant.
>
> Then just last year the power grid in I  think Aukland NewZealand failed
> completely power apparently stayed off for days.
>
> I dont think anyone died as a result of the failures, though several were
> killed in the gas explosion. But the dislocation was enormous with losses
> estimated in the billions of dollars.
>
> How about this for a problem for the budding merchants, works especially
> well on worlds with monopoly types of power supplies. The power grid fails
> and cannot be restored. Luckily our intrepid heroes have this nice fusion
> power plant in their ship.

And check out just how *much* power a typical ship generates. More than
enough for critical services in a small to medium city.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:58:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Try having seperate fusion power plants on a world run by the mega corps.
> I'm sure that they would want a monopoly on supply which would mean fewer,
> larger generators.

Two problems. First, once you get small cheap fusion plants, there's no
*point* to a monopoly. The "fewer, larger" setup actually *costs*
money. That is, it's more expensive to operate. Sure, there are
economies of scale. But transmission losses go *up* with scale, not
down.

Add in the fact that most *vehicle* powerplants are perfectly capable
of being used to generate power. After all, that fusion unit in your
air-raft doesn't care if the *electric* power it is putting out goes to
run the CG and thrusters, or to run your lights & heat. 

It's a losing situation for the megacorp. They *could* do it. But it'd
require placing *obvious* and *obnoxious* restrictions on the
population. And without really being worth it profit wise.

> Smaller colonies would also not have a lot of generation,
> indeed some of them may be using the power plant from the colony transport
> that brought them there.

Again, remember that *vehicles* are "fusion/electric". And that
portable generators would be part of the equipment for a colony ship. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:09:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)

In mail you write:

> On 07/14/99 09:48:56 you wrote:
>>ObTrav: you can run a range war over water rights on a planet almost
>>anywhere, just like they had in the old American west...
>
> Historical note: Back in the teens the Arizona National Guard was sent to 
> stop LA from building a diversion dam on the Colorado River that would have 
> allowed them to pump more than their allocation from the river.  The LA 
> Times 
> despatached their war correspondent to cover the action.  No shots were 
> fired, but it gives you an idea of how seriously people take water rights in 
> arid environments.

And then you get into the joys of "allocations". Such as the fact that
in some cases they are calculated *very* oddly. Such that in an
*average* year the allocations of the Colorado add up to *more* than
100% of the river's flow!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:11:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water Rights (was re: tech question)

In mail you write:

> The issues associated with water and civilization past, present, and future
> lend themselves to a myriad of potential problems and conflicts.  The
> allocation of the Colorado River is a case in point.  It is my understanding
> that its water use was allocated based on an atypical very wet season.  Thus
> it's waters are highly over subscribed by various U.S. interests. Mexico,
> being at the end of the daisy chain, has historically been literally left
> with the leavings and is none to happy about it.

Point of fact: Many (most?) years the Colorado ceases to *exist* except
as a dry riverbed *long* before it reach the Mexican border, much less
the Gulf of California.

> Diversion of waters flowing into the Arial Sea by the former Soviet Union
> has reduced it to a fraction of its former size and left it little more than
> a brine lake.   They had plans to divert south whole rivers flowing into the
> Arctic Ocean.  They were talking about blasting through mountains with
> atomic munitions.  I don't know what has become of the projects but I can
> tell you that the climatological consequences of such terra forming projects
> are relatively unknown.

Last I heard, China *still* had plans for such a diversion *including*
nuclear demolitions. I forget which river it was and which mountain
range they were going to blast the tunnel thru.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:28:49 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Starports

Gentlebeings,

Next project on the way for GURPS Traveller is Starports. Steve thinks it
would be cool beyond measure if we could have a sample starport map for
each class and not just a generic Class I-V, but a diagram of Flammarion
Downport (Class V) and so on.

I don't remember any actual canon starport layouts (I don't rmember if I
did one for Champa Starport when I wrote the JTAS article, and I don't have
access to my references right now.

Are there canon layouts for any specific starports? If not, I need
volunteers to design them. They need to be based on reality as much as
possible, which means they have to be laid out in a rational fashion, and
should be based as closely as possible on real-world airports (putting
aside for the moment whether they should be based on seaports or neither
one).

I need volunteers to design these diagrams. Please contact me at
LKW@IO.COM, I still cannot read TMLs (never have tracked down what the
problem is).



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:50:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Nanorover Bound For Asteroid

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Actually, the NASA use is rather a better use of the word-element nano- than
> > we typically see.   Nano- comes from the Greek word "nanos"  which means a
> > dwarf or midget.
> 
> Doesn't matter. The *prefix* "nano-: is *defined* as "1e-9". That is,
> one-billionth (US).

That is _only_ for it's use as a prefix to SIE units. There's more to
the English language than the CRC ;-)

The Greek derivation  as 'midget' is still a perfectly valid use of the
word. 
Despite what many scientists and engineers seem to think, their jargon
is _not_ necessarily the last word in the english language...

All our _micro_computers are quite a bit bigger than 10^-6th...as is a
microscope, or a micrometer, all perfectly valid words from the same
root.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:49:52 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update

Jesse,

From the Guru of Traveller 3d art this... Well. I just don't know what
to say! Thank you.

Lighting is an area I haven't explored in RDS yet. Mainly I've used the
"stock" lighing that comes with the scene wizard function. I guess I'll
tackle that after finishing the scout. I am working on a 'burn layer'
now as well as the antenna.

Jesse DeGraff wrote:
> 
> OUTSTANDING progression!  See that guys?  Three pictures later and already a
> world of difference.  Good job!  Now you just need to add some antenna
> fairings and turn the ambient light down to 5% or less (hope you have that
> option!!!).  There is VERY little ambient light in space.  You may get a
> little blue fill from a planets surface if you're in orbit, or you can add a
> little bit of colored light from a nebula background as well, but it's
> mainly direct, harsh sunlight with no ambient scatter.
> 
> Keep it up!
> Jesse
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> > Peters
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 12:05 AM
> > To: TML
> > Subject: TML 3d club-Site update
> >
> >
> > I replaced the scout/courier picture on my site with a new one. I
> > completely rebuilt the model after looking at the one on Jesse's site.
> > It's not perfect yet, but it's getting better. Location to art page
> > below
> >
> > http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm
> >
> > Let me know what you think off list. Sorry to those of you that think
> > this is a waste of bandwidth!
> > --
> > Mike Peters
> > travelleri@home.com
> >

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:09:18 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients

On Friday, July 16, 1999 10:12 AM
Michael Peters said,

> What IS Grandfather NOT telling?!!!! And how much of what he has told is
> true? May be HE BELIEVES that he spontaneously came into existence, but
> does this make it true?

I've wondered on this myself.

Is Grandfather hiding from an even more powerful force ala "Heechee"?
Is Grandfather really the Ancient one or is he a pretender to the throne, or
possibly someone left by the real Grandfather to keep tabs on us and his
experiments, until we are ready, or until we show signs of getting too
advanced/aggressive?

Did he construct his pocket universe with customized natural laws and
constants.  A slightly different gravitational constant?  Different
strong/weak forces?  Does time pass differently in his universe allowing him
more time to analyze and react to things in ours, or to allow him to view
changes in out universe at an accelerated rate?

I keep coming up with more questions than answers, but it is a fun process.

G.D.D.
=======
I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.  -Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:14:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
...
>Mister wavy tentacles, we're closer to you than the Vargr. Fancy a Grand
>Fleet Exercise?

  And where did you want their software to send your ships this week? :>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:24:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Electricity

In mail you write:

> And a last thought, aren't there advantages in launching rockets from
> locations near the Equator?

Yes. Though this depends *strongly* on both the length of the planet's
day, and on the size (diameter) of the planet.

Basicly, on Earth's equator you are travelling almost 1000 miles/hour
faster than at the poles. And that's *not* a velocity to be ignored
lightly. 

> Would this still apply in a grav-oriented society?

It might not be as important, but it'd still be a factor. 

Hmmm. 1000 mph = 1467 fps = 447 m/s. 

So it'd save about 200 kiloJoules per kilogram of cargo. 

> Would it tend to encourage starports and early colonies to be
> located near the equator?

Depends on what sort of energy/fuel costs they have. 

> Would this result in 'tropical' climates in many
> smaller colonies, with limited seasonal variations, even when the all year
> round climate differs drastically from Earth norms?  Just a thought.

Just remember that "equatorial" *doesn't* necessarily mean "low
variation". Consider a planet like H. Beam Piper's Uller. Near 90
degree axial tilt. The seasons vary like crazy *everywhere*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:32:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

In mail you write:

> At 08:19 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>The star system data file should be something like Galactic or Traveller 
>>Tools format.  Personally, I prefer the Traveller Tools format.  No 
> offense, 
>>Jim.
>
> The main problem is that, at least with Galactic, there doesn't seem to be
> a way for me to keep track of everything I'm wanting -- the data structure
> for an individual world (or moon) in the pre-prototype I have is about 140
> bytes long as a binary file, ignoring the space I'm alloting for the system
> name.  I haven't seen Traveller Tools yet -- should I go track it down?

I rather expect that worlds will be in some sort of "master" file.
Possibly one per sector or subsector. You'll have all the
"non-standard" data in this record, and just an index to let you look
it up by some key (hex+orbit+???).

>>Sector files would be good enough.  You can put an index file of all 
>>created/converted sectors as a seperate file, so if you wanna view the next 
>>subsector spinward, and it's in another charted sector, the index will find 
>>the right sector.
>
> This makes sense, and simplifies things for standard Traveller uses.

My approach has been to assign sectors co-ordinates based on Core =
(0,0). I've got a file listing all known sector names with a field for
co-ordinates, and another for which language the name is. I think I put
subsectors in there too.

> Yes, but I run a heretical TNE campaign based on the 2300AD Near Star List
> (along with a T4 Pocket Empires for some higher-level organization, and a
> handful of other Traveller editions and non-Traveller material).

Well, all that "really" involves is a different format for
co-ordinates, and a different "adjacent sector" algorithm.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:16:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water politics, was:Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> (Uhh, Eris, you can stop reading this now. NO...really, what I'm saying
> here is of NO concern to you.  ;-)
>
> Want to make life difficult for your PC's? Forget about Imperial court
> politics, the Rebellion, squabbles between different Empires. The
> absolutely dirtiest, meanest, most vicious politics imaginable occur on
> the local level. 
> The worst political fights are over who is the dog catcher.
>
> Land your PC's and their cargo of imported water treatment equipment
> into a local firestorm over the use or availability of the polluted
> water the local water authority wants to use that equipment to clean up,
> so they can use it as drinking water.
>
> The populace see this as feeding them tainted water, and are pissed
> about it.

Several Oregon cities are having to switch from well water to treating
water from the Willamette river. And folks are *not* happy about it. 

Personally, I'd like to enforce Heinlein's solution to river pollution
on them (which, btw could easily be done all over the US by a simple
Presidential order). *Require* that anybody dumping waste into a river
or stream obtain their water from *downstream* of the outlet. 

Apparently several Scandanavian countries have this rule or something
like it. It works *far* better than typical limits on pollution because
suddenly it's in the *polluter's* best interest to clean up the
discharge as much as possible. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:00:07 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

> From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

> Or perhaps, with shows like JERRY SPRINGER, COPS, pro wrestling, and the
> latest Fox special MORE STUFF BLOWING UP ON VIDEO, the line between reality
> and entertainment has simply gotten too blurred to tell anymore.

Clinton/Lewinsky would be another example of that blurring.  By the Far
Future (tm), I expect the pendulum to have swung many times, and I
expect that information manipulation will be a very high art form.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:18:46 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Two Questions

When low tech troops defend against battle dress troops, they should
choose the battlefield carefully to offset the attacker's advantages. 
For example, if you can have the battle in an underground tunnel network
or inside a big, heavily reinforced, stone building, you'll minimize
BD's mobility and range advantages.  The more time the defenders have to
prepare, the better off they'll be.

I'd expect the Sword Worlds and Vargr worlds near the border of the
Spinward Marches would have spent a lot of time and effort in figuring
out how to fight against battle dress.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:48:27 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: On the nature of Jump Space. [Long]

I thought I would throw some more questions hoping for either canon
information or information/discussion from peoples campaigns.

What is jump space and how does it work/ how do jump drives work.

Please excuse any poor terminology for this is not my field.

I often envision jumpspace as a hyperspace topology that you can lie the
normal 3 dimensional (3+?) on the surface of so that every point in the
universe corresponds with a point on the surface of jumpspace in much the
same way as you can wrap a two dimensional surface around a sphere.  With
this view a jump breaks the surface tension between universes/spaces and
projects you on a vector through jumpspace.  Your ship then follows its
course until it reached the exit-point back into the normal universe.  Tides
within jumpspace create small variances in travel time but the basic trip
takes about a week.  Stronger jump drives let you cut a deeper curve though
jumpspace and thereby exit you a further distance from your entry point.
Jump drives use a preset that corresponds to a known-safe angle of incidence
with jumpspace and when this is changed it results in a mis-jump.  The
trajectory and relative velocity through jumpspace is different and causes a
different passage length in both time and distance.  Typically a jump drive
consumes all of its fuel in opening the tear into jumpspace and initiating
the ship on its trajectory.  The drive then shuts down and the ship
essentially coasts through jumpspace until it reaches the other end point of
its trajectory and breaks the surface tension back into our universe.  The
physics of jumpspace being different from our universe normal reaction
thrusters or gravitic drives are useless in jumpspace.  One danger in this
is the chance of a collision between 2 ships in jumpspace, or the possible
collision with some other object either indigenous to jumpspace it another
visitor.

Another model for jump-drives I have used is a space-folding type mechanism.
A true spacefold should be close to instantaneous unless the universe has to
suspend the existence of the ship to balance a conservation of
energy/reality type function and in that case I have trouble justifying
passengers on the ship experiencing this time and consuming supplies etc.
Instead I see the jump drive creating a jumpspace tunnel between two points
in the universe down which the ship is propelled.  Stronger jump drives
create a longer tunnel and propels the ships down the tunnel faster so they
always cross the distance in about a week.  Speed through the tunnel is
subjective to the space of the tunnel so it has no effect on the speed and
direction of the ship before/after it makes the jump.  I could see the drive
either using all its fuel and coasting down the tunnel with whatever
relativistic speed was imparted at the point of jump, or the drive
continually working on maintaining and stabilizing the tunnel.  In the later
view it allows for a drive malfunction to cause either a collapse in the
tunnel (either destroying it or flinging it back into some point in the
normal universe (Or possibly another)) or to cause the tunnels end/exit
point to drift thereby altering the destination and the length of the tunnel
and changing the time in transit.  This model has the effect of isolating
ships effectively in their own universe (Unless fleets are allowed to
somehow link their drives).  This keeps away from the possibility  of
collisions.

I have a few other ideas floating in my head but this is all I will subject
the list to in this post.  Please feel free to pick apart these ideas
anywhere you like.

G.D.D.
======
Few things are harder to put up with than a good example.  --Mark Twain

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #868
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 16 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 869



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Two Questions 
Re: Docking Bays
Starport Layouts
Jargon
grandfather's origin and his children
Re: Starport Layouts
Re: Two Questions
Re: Two Questions
Re: tech question
Stop talking about The Blair Witch Project
Re: Tech question
Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2
Re: Starports
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: Re : tech question
Re: Jargon
T4 Novel
Re: Starports
Re: tech question
Re: Re : tech question
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:16:45 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

>
>> Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could a
>> numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force use
>> to stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command detonated
>> mines to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure hoses of salt
>> water with electric currents run through them to knock them down and
>> possibly short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way to drop them
>> into a hole and then filling the hole with cement?  How about spraying
>> them with some kind of quick setting super epoxy that would render them
>> immobile?  Those are the only ideas I have and and I admit some are a
>> bit off the wall.  Anyone have any other thoughts?
>>

Is everyone missing the obvious, or did I not see another poster?

The disposable AT-GL-6 or AT-GL-7.  At pen 36 or 31 (MT stats are all I
have), any reasonable BD is toast (well, except maybe GT).  The best MT BD
is armor of 18, well within the capability of these cheap little toys.
Don't forget that the TL15 versions will have a penetration of around 50.
Sure, a PDL might be able to take them down, but in an urban fight, ranges
will be close and angles confused.  If the PDLs are too effective, switch to
panzerwurfermines, probably manufacturable at TL5, with equal penetration.
As they are hand thrown, they might either be ignored by the PDL, or at
least make it easier to overload.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:42:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Docking Bays

>        Worse, (he said pointing canon around indescriminately)
>fighter-craft carriers and x-boat tenders exist.  The carriers have launch
>tubes capable of putting a 50-ton Rampart into space every 30 seconds...
>you aren't doing that with hatch doors and decompression of spaces.  The
>tenders, I believe, can bring an X-boat on board for maint....  if it was a
>dumb idea, x-boat tenders would be a spar with engines at one end, docking
>collars at intervals and the bridge at the other.  That's not what they look
>like (ask Jesse ;).

According to AHL, the Flight Ops Deck gets depressurized during flight ops.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Starport Layouts

>
>Are there canon layouts for any specific starports? If not, I need
>volunteers to design them. They need to be based on reality as much as
>possible, which means they have to be laid out in a rational fashion, and
>should be based as closely as possible on real-world airports (putting
>aside for the moment whether they should be based on seaports or neither
>one).

At least one has been included on a map Aramis/Spinward Marches, in _The
Traveller Adventure_.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Jargon

>Despite what many scientists and engineers seem to think, their jargon
>is _not_ necessarily the last word in the english language...

The same is true of Hisotorians vs the rest of the world.. as the
differences in the value of the terms Myth and  Legend definitions on list
shows. Hostorical jargon differs (often to direct contradiction) with
Archeological, anthropological, and Paleological jargon often.... Each
science seems to be developing into sub-languages these days (Working in
the Mental Health Field, but being a trained historian with some experience
in Archival Science, I am literally having to completely revise my working
language... Making the MH community able to understand me has been a
challenge.).

And other fields get worse, too. Medicine and Law use Latin phrases as
english... history often redefines terms from common useage into much more
narrowly defined terms. Astronomy has terms for things that the common man
hardly even grasps.

Ad such jargons often have written expression patterns which cause
problems, for example, it is common in Geography (my minor) to all-caps any
term being defined in prose. Especially when bold is not an option.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:20:53 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: grandfather's origin and his children

I think we can safely establish that Grandfather was a freak or mule.  As 
the point would be which other race did or could he have belonged to?  This 
line would lead down the road to Immaculate Conceptions be they divine or 
the culmulation of scientific mystery eg. Phantom's Chosen One.  I don't 
think Traveller needs to go there.  THere are too many egoists believing 
that they are chosen ones.
   As to the origin of his children.  We only know that he had them.  
Cloning is a long established tradition in Traveller.  While I wouldn't mind 
breaking with past.  There is a reference, not sure where it talks about 
Grandfather creating his children who were almost as intelligent as he was.  
Without genetic modification, how could he predict how intelligent his 
children would be without building in some safeguards.  In most cases, 
children in time are more intelligent then their parents simply because they 
absorb the experience of the parents as being part of the natural 
environment and develop ideas from that basis as a starting point.  As to 
uplifting the whole Droyne race.  It must be remembered not all Droyne were 
Ancients (and possibly all Ancients were not Droyne).
  I would welcome if cannon writers could also get involved in this 
discussion.  As their thoughts, would be most welcome.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:41:25 -0500
From: Shimmergloom <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Starport Layouts

There is the Judges Guild book Fifty Starbases. which i have for sale at the cost
of 10.00.

"William F. Hostman" wrote:

> >
> >Are there canon layouts for any specific starports? If not, I need
> >volunteers to design them. They need to be based on reality as much as
> >possible, which means they have to be laid out in a rational fashion, and
> >should be based as closely as possible on real-world airports (putting
> >aside for the moment whether they should be based on seaports or neither
> >one).
>
> At least one has been included on a map Aramis/Spinward Marches, in _The
> Traveller Adventure_.
>
> William F. Hostman
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
> ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis      ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
> as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
> "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Big eyed Anime grin.


        Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 05:27:42 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Two Questions

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> 
> I'd expect the Sword Worlds and Vargr worlds near the border of the
> Spinward Marches would have spent a lot of time and effort in figuring
> out how to fight against battle dress.

They have special troops for dealing with it.  They're call the Zhodani.

Other options:  
Hit soft targets, where battle dress troops aren't present.
Use hostages.
Use a bigger tank.
Advance in the opposite direction, then nuke them.
Steal some sets of battle dress from one of the Vargr worlds that can match
Imperial technology.  If you're really desperate, buy it.

"Nuke the site from orbit."
"Imperial Rules of War my furry a** - we're Vargr!"

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:15:30 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Two Questions

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> I'd expect the Sword Worlds and Vargr worlds near the border of the
> Spinward Marches would have spent a lot of time and effort in figuring
> out how to fight against battle dress.

I forgot an old favourite:
Depose your leader and change sides.  Change your mind, invite them for
dinner, and stab them to death during the fish course.  (It's too difficult
to do with a soup spoon.)

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:00:45 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: tech question

On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:22:02 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>"Blowups Happen" was Heinlein. But Piper had a story about nuclear
>plant safety (I can't recall the title) that was *very* disturbing.

I suspect you're thinking of 'Day of the Morons'. Any sort of
description of the story I could post that would unambiguously ID
the story would also be a spoiler, which I am reluctant to post.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:16:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Stop talking about The Blair Witch Project

Please--some of us get the digest and can't delete or otherwise skip
messages without seeing them first.  Take it off-list perhaps, or maybe
there is already a BWP ML?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:19:20 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Tech question

>> You can pump most of the atmosphere into adjoining sections or tanks, prior 
>> to opening the doors. Cheap.

>Time consuming. Check out the sort of pumps required. It takes a long
>time to pump *anything* out to a near vacuum unless you use a pump
>almost as big as the volume you are pumping out. 

Is that a basic limitation or can we expect that to improve with TL? 

You probably have a few hours when docking with x-boats, but not when launching
them.

[Perhaps my tongue-in-cheek "shrink wrap" alternative was not that far from the
mark...]

>> You can replace lost oxygen by electrolysis of a small amount of water. 

>Not *that* small. Check out what a cubic meter of O2 weighs. Then
>consider that you'll need 9/8ths that mass of water to generate the
>replacement oxygen.

Density of air at sea level is about 1/800th the density of water (from
Encarta). [You probably don't need sea level density in any case and could get
away with a lot thinner].

So one litre of water will generate enough oxygen for 3400 litres of air
[8/9*800/0.209] or around four litres of water per Displacement ton at 21%
oxygen. Less if you go with lower pressure. That is small in my book.

[I believe modern submarines routinely use electrolysis of water for replacement
oxygen.]

The spare Nitrogen you may have to take tanked at high pressure. I bet that is
nowhere near as small unless you can store it at ten thousands pounds per square
inch. 

>> Nitrogen you would have to take in tanks I think. [Aside: Is it OK to use gases other
>> than Nitrogen as the "inert" component of air?].

>Yes, but doing so has various drawbacks. Mostly, the fact that they are
>both expensive *and* they change life support conditions *drasticly* by
>their very presence.

I was afraid of that but wasn't sure if it was safer/lighter/cheaper to carry
pressurised nitrogen or a liquid source, say ammonia solution NH4-OH. You could
electrolyse out the nitrogen and oxygen together - and tank or discard the
excess oxygen. You would need about thirty three litres per DT of air. 

I was trying to explore alternative inert components so that I could identify a
suitable liquid source.

[Any submariners on the list know what subs use?]

>> Your standard life support should be able to handle this. Cheap.

>*Small* losses, yes. Not large ones. Consider that "100 tons" is 13,500
>cubic meters. A "mere" 1% loss is 13.5 cubic meters of air. 

Four litres of water and a large tank of nitrogen OR 33 litres of ammonia
solution. Not too bad.

I agree it is important to keep losses to a minimum. I was trying to identify
the best sources for replacement.

>Also, if you store the atmosphere at 100 atm pressure, that means you
>need 1 dT of volume *inside* the storage tank for every 100 dt of space
>in the bay. And that tank is resisting a force of almost 27,400 *tons*
>attempting to break it open. 

On an x-boat tender you have that handy cargo deck you could use to store the
air, at only a few atmospheres, most ships have something similar. You could
just increase pressure slightly in the rest of the ship. 

>> Life support - atmosphere recycling - is only required for air that is 
>> breathed, which wont change whether the bay is open or closed. All that
>> is required, above  what you already have, is ducting & heating. Cheap.

>Sorry, but you just flunked life support 101. You have to circulate and
>filter *all* of that air. Otherwise it can accumulate toxins, get
>depleted in oxygen, or otherwise be Very Bad News for anyone exposed to
>it. 

Huh? The total amount of air in the ship is the same regardless of whether the
bay is in vacuum or not. The total number of people breathing atmosphere wont
change (much). So the toxin removal, CO2 removal, oxygen replacement
requirements wont change. Yes you have to pump air to more places as I said.

>That "ducting" has to be able to handle high pressure air as you pump
>out the bay. It also has to have pressure seals that isolate the bay
>from the rest of the ship when you pump it out.

Presumably you have emergency pressure seals in all other sections of the ship
too.

This is standard traveller tech. Is it that difficult/expensive? 

>And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. <snip>

I thought we had already determined that trav ships have a heat problem and that
they can dump heat efficiently (using near magical radiators) :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:54:06 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2

As I was contemplating the problems with standard missiles in large-ship
combat (point defense can knock them down too easily), I thought about
the very first anti-ship long-range cruise missiles.  These weapons,
first deployed in October 1944, had impressive range, and carried the
most sophisticated autonomous seeker head and guidance system _ever_
mounted on an anti-ship weapon.  I refer, of course, to the Kamikaze.

I then looked at the AuricTech equivalent to the Rampart fighter.  I
realized that a 36m^3 laser mount could hold an _awfully_ large
det-laser warhead.  Alas, the largest det-laser warhead in FF&S2
requires only 1.4% (.49 m^3) of this space, and there are no rules for
constructing larger warheads.

Any suggestions concerning upscaling det-laser warheads?  (I realize
that suicide attacks are rather barbaric, but I expect that there would
be some cultures out there that would attempt such a thing.  Besides,
just because I use a fighter as a prototype airframe for such a missile
doens't necessarily mean that I would advocate using manned anti-ship
missiles.)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:35:56 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Starports

> From: Loren Wiseman 
> I don't remember any actual canon starport layouts (I don't rmember if I
> did one for Champa Starport when I wrote the JTAS article, and I don't
have
> access to my references right now.

Hi Loren.

I've just had a quick flick through some of the books I have sitting beside
me.  There are some canon layouts in various adventures.  Most of the maps
are pretty sketchy, and they only seem to be downports.  

Here are some references:
'The Traveller Adventure':  Leedor/Aramis.  The map of Leedor has starport
pads marked.  
'Mission on Mithril':  Mithril.  Very small.
'Night of Conquest':  Airship port used presumably 'as required'.

I vaguely recall some others.  At least some of them are really just
airports.  Unfortunately I haven't got time to check.

'Tarsus' and 'Beltstrike' seem likely places to look.  I'm also sending
this post to the TML, so maybe someone could check.

I hope this is useful.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:56:13 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project


>Clinton/Lewinsky would be another example of that blurring.  By the Far
>Future (tm), I expect the pendulum to have swung many times, and I
>expect that information manipulation will be a very high art form.


Psychohistory, anyone? ;)

(It was actually the Blair Psionicist Project that started the psionics
supressions).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:00:34 -0400
From: "pould" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

There was an interesting article on the CNN web site about the making of the
movie. Go see it.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca
- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.


>At 03:17 AM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>It also helps if the viewer thinks it might just be real. A local paper
did
>>a review of the film and like 1/3rd of it was "ways you can tell that this
>>movie isn't a true story."
>
>Well , the iterview with the cast members on MTV was a big tip off...
>Look, i don't believe that Michael Douglas was ever President, but that
>doesn't stop me from thinking _The American President_ is one of my
>favorite movies.
>
>_TBWP_ has a wonderfully realistic style, I'll accept it as that, and
>phooey to all those who can't understand that it's just a damn(ed) movie.
>--
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:45:21 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

This may be a little behind on this thread.  In Larry Niven's "Known Space"
universe flying with out being under computer control over a populated area
is the death penalty on Earth.


<<Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jetrock <jetrock@emrl.com>
Subject:

On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> Ob Traveller:  How dangerous are air/rafts and grav speeders in the
> urban context (compared to TL 8 wheeled vehicles)?  I assume that there
> are aerial "streets" in cities with a lot of contragrav traffic (and no
> intersections, because different traffic directions are at different
> altitudes; there are "on ramps" and "off ramps" for changing
> direction).  

Typically, within a city on a world high-tech enough to have both grav
vehicles and mass traffic, grav traffic is slaved to computer control. The
vehicle's computer links up with city traffic control and the computer
does the rest.  Which gives us some interesting disaster scenarios if the
computer gives out at a bad moment, but hey, this is roleplaying--without
disasters, catastrophes, and poorly-timed malfunctions, it'd be boring!

> What about between cities?  Are there official "freeways" for grav
> traffic between urban centers, or can you fly from here to there by any
> scenic route you like?  Inasmuch as grav vehicles allow for much finer
> control than TL 8 aircraft, and don't require any special facilities for
> take-off and landing, I doubt that the contemporary aircraft system is a
> good model.
> 
This depends a lot on what planet you are on. High-population worlds,
densely populated with a lot of traffic, will probably have regular routes
established, with some form of automated air-traffic control. On a
frontier world with a population of 500, you can pretty much swing your
air/raft however you like it, since there just isn't that much else flying
around for you to hit.

Law level is also a factor: low-law worlds are less likely to object
strenuously to someone flying outside the lines, while a high-law world
might routinely take down errant pilots with AA laser batteries for flying
Where They Should Not Be.

- - --Rev. Jetrock, founder of UBERKUNST, Freelance Digital Appliance Healer
http://emrl.com/~jetrock for UBERKUNST and MONSTER ATTACK information!>>

- ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:31:52 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jargon

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:43 PM
Subject: Jargon


>The same is true of Hisotorians vs the rest of the world.. as the
>differences in the value of the terms Myth and  Legend definitions on list
>shows. Hostorical jargon differs (often to direct contradiction) with
>Archeological, anthropological, and Paleological jargon often....

It's not really. Over the course of time, the use of the term myth has
mutated, but it's not really jargon. In the mid-1800s when the study of
folklore was started in earnest, those were the generally accepted
definitions of the terms myth and legend. Legend has remained the same in
general use. Most of the online dictionaries I checked as a test support the
"folklorist's jargon" for legend. Myth is defined in a couple of them as a
false story that is accepted as truth, but then they follow it up with a
short version of the " folklorist's jargon" definition.

Urban, when it serves as a prefix to legend has a very specific meaning in
the jargon of folklorists, and it is from this use that the popular use
derives. As a result, they are one in the same. Brunvand himself kept trying
to come up with a new definition as he felt that "urban legend" was too
narrow a definition that gave people the wrong idea.

<ObTrav>: Has the Third Imperium begun studying its own folklore? I'm sure
that there are groups studying the folklore of individual worlds. That goes
without saying. Have they realized yet that folklore is everchanging and
exists in some form or another all the way to the Imperial Palace?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:55:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: T4 Novel

Does anyone have the ISBN (or Author/Title) of the Traveller Novel for T4
published last year to hand?

As Amazon now has a UK arm I thought I'd have a look to see if they have it...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:58:06 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

At 07:35 AM 7/17/99 +1000, you wrote:
>I vaguely recall some others.  At least some of them are really just
>airports.  Unfortunately I haven't got time to check.
>
>'Tarsus' and 'Beltstrike' seem likely places to look.  I'm also sending
>this post to the TML, so maybe someone could check.

Actually, I've always felt that the White Dwarf article by Thomas M Price
entitled "Happy Landings - Starport Design in Traveller" was and remains
the ultimate (to date) resource for the Imperial starport. Although not
'officially' canon, and only a three pages in length, the article contains
a wealth of information on the design of starports. In addition the article
features eight detailed diagrams of typical Imperial starports ranging from
Class A all the way down to Class E. I don't have the issue number handy,
but can look it up if anyone is interested.

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:52:58 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

At 09:50 AM 7/16/99 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > *Small* losses, yes. Not large ones. Consider that "100 tons" is 13,500
> > cubic meters. A "mere" 1% loss is 13.5 cubic meters of air.
> >
> > Also, if you store the atmosphere at 100 atm pressure, that means you
> > need 1 dT of volume *inside* the storage tank for every 100 dt of space
> > in the bay. And that tank is resisting a force of almost 27,400 *tons*
> > attempting to break it open.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > How do these temperatures and pressures compare with those
> > involved with liquid hydrogen operations?
> >
> > If they are similar, this would show the presence of tech that can
> > handle the requirements of the X-Boat tender design.
>
>The situation with LH2 is *quite* different. It's handled as a
>*liquid*. The pressures involved are modest, except for the high speed
>pumps used to feed LH2 to the J-drive. The only "pressure" in the tanks
>will be from the *weight* of the LH2. They'll probably have a from a
>few psi to 1 atm of gas pressure above the surface of the liquid.
>
>The temperatures are mostly a matter of insulating things so the LH2
>*stays* cold. *Producing* LH2 requires getting rid of large amounts of
>heat, but that's (hopefully) something the radiators can handle.
>*Using* LH2 isn't a problem, because the places it's used (fusion
>reactors, and drives) are *producing* lots of energy, and thus
>"pre-heating" the gas is easy.

Leonard,

Dealing with cryos for my past work places, the hard rules are:

If the liquid gas is not actively being pressurized and temperatures being 
actively maintained, it will have to vented constantly. None of the above 
then you have a container rupture in time. The time depends of the cross 
sectional area of the gas container versus the temp around the container.

As for the perfect insulator that you have mentioned well it brings up many 
issues. With the heat that the ship's power will generate even a 99% 
efficient insulator, will have the cryos changing states.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:07:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

James Brewer wrote:
> 
> This may be a little behind on this thread.  In Larry Niven's "Known Space"
> universe flying with out being under computer control over a populated area
> is the death penalty on Earth.

As was running stoplights, jaywalking, not paying your taxes, spitting
on the sidewalk...at least until they figured out organ regeneration, it
was the organ banks for you if you so much as _looked_ suspicious...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:55:29 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

Glenn M. Goffin writes:

>> Or perhaps, with shows like JERRY SPRINGER, COPS, pro wrestling, and the
>> latest Fox special MORE STUFF BLOWING UP ON VIDEO, the line between reality
>> and entertainment has simply gotten too blurred to tell anymore.
>
>Clinton/Lewinsky would be another example of that blurring.  By the Far
>Future (tm), I expect the pendulum to have swung many times, and I
>expect that information manipulation will be a very high art form.

   At the risk of cracking open a 100 liter barrel full of worms, there was
nothing blurred about Clinton/Lewinsky except the spin control/payoffs to
liberal Democratic Party members that the White House put out--the same
sort of spin control/payoffs to liberal Democratic Party members that has
been in effect since Jan. 20, 1992.  Even people who commit suicide in
their own office (Vince Foster) are not beyond the spin machine...

   In game terms, I can think of a number of instances where spin control
and general manipulation of the media would come into play:

1) The Interstellar Wars - I can just see the Terran recruiting posters
now, waring of the 'Villani' (deliberate mispelling so that it appears more
like the word 'Villian') menace.  Comparisons made between the red found
prominently featured in Vilani color schemes and the red of the Communists
of the 20th century.  Comparisons made to the Borg, the Nazis, and Gaia
knows what else.

2) Second Imperium - Propaganda pieces dedicated to making the latest
emperor look more noble, better fit, and all around semi-deity like as
possible an emperor as possible so that the populace will bow down before
them.  Forget the fact that Carlos XII took the throne after poisoning his
father, and that his father took the throne after killing the empress after
a staff meeting...

3) Third Imperium - Government propaganda early on extolls the virtues of
being part of the growing Imperium, how so many worlds have benefitted from
the truly benevolent rule of his/her Highness.  Later pieces would extoll
the virtues as exemplified by certain nobles--their benevolent (absolute)
rule, and their complete and total loyalty to the emperor.

4) Solomani Confederation - Shows the Third Imperium as a place of absolute
dictatorship, where people are persecuted merely for being a member of the
Solomani Party and extolling the supremacy of Terran blood over that of
aliens and inferior human transplants to other worlds.  Solsec is only
protecting us from evil.  Please disregard the cameras, they are there for
your protection.  We only need your genetic samples for our files so that
we can protect you better.  We need to know what you buy and when you have
large sums of money so we can protect you.  You need identity papers so
that we can track your movements so we can protect you.  Firearms are evil
and you need protected from them.  We have guns and you don't because you
need protected...

   Sorry, reality slipping in there....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #869
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 17 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 870



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Stop talking about The Blair Witch Project
Re: Starports
Re: T4 Novel
Re: T4 Novel
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: Starports
Re: T4 Novel
Nightrim Datalog 1.8 Up.
Re: Software proposal
RE: TML 3d club-Site update
RE: Starports
Media
Re: Starports 
Re: Starports
Re: T4 Novel
Re: grandfather's origin and his children
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: tech question (really, an example of an urban legend)
Re: TML 3d club-Site update
Re: T4 Novel
Re: Jargon
Mystery Ship revisited

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:00:04 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stop talking about The Blair Witch Project

It wasn't me <<looks around guilty-like>> Jesse and Doug made me!!

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:54:11 -0500
From: "Alex Rebsch" <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Starports

Dragon Magazine #59 has the Exonidas Spaceport Adventure. This contains a
diagram of the downport and the main terminal building, plus a diagram for
the high port. The whole adventure is about 15 pages. Hope this helps.

BTW

From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>

> Actually, I've always felt that the White Dwarf article by Thomas M Price
> entitled "Happy Landings - Starport Design in Traveller" was and remains
> the ultimate (to date) resource for the Imperial starport. Although not
> 'officially' canon, and only a three pages in length, the article contains
> a wealth of information on the design of starports. In addition the article
> features eight detailed diagrams of typical Imperial starports ranging from
> Class A all the way down to Class E. I don't have the issue number handy,
> but can look it up if anyone is interested.

Do you know what issue this was in?

Thanks,

Alex Rebsch

grazzit@flash.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:04:07 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

Title: Gateway to the Stars, by Pierce Askegren. ISBN 0-671-01188-X
Price $5.99 Publisher- Pocket Books. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:30:05 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

You sure you want it?

ISBN:  0-671-0118-X
Gateway to the Stars
Author: Pierce Askegan

But, seriously, don't waste your time.  Its not even a good doorstop.

Bloo


SD Mooney wrote:

> Does anyone have the ISBN (or Author/Title) of the Traveller Novel for T4
> published last year to hand?
>
> As Amazon now has a UK arm I thought I'd have a look to see if they have it...
>
> Dom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:41:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays
...
>My argument wasn't that it was cheap, but that despite the expense the
>capability is (canonically) installed on all starships to make them combat
>worthy. This being the case, venting and refilling bays shouldn't be a
>problem.  

  Not an engineering problem, but cost may not be worth it, at least to a
lot of OTU societies. Again, this refers to docking hangars/bays, not to
the actual ships themselves.

>I agree with Micheal V. that we often under-estimate the technological
>capabilities of the Imperium.  I'm sure Leonardo Da Vinchi had a engineer
>buddy who kept pestering him about technicalities with his flying machine 
...
>The point is that alot of the nitpicks people come up with on this list to
>say that ideas are impossible/improbable/implausible are engineering
>problems disguised as physical limitations by our present ignorance of
>future physics.  And some are mere engineering problems.

  I know at least one fellow who starts foaming at the mouth at the phrase
"mere engineering" (although it makes wargaming simpler by distracting him).
It appears that SF gamers (and arm-chair historians, esp. military) either
aren't aware of or don't choose to acknowledge the fact that engineering 
problems are vastly more serious than theoreticians - let alone laymen - 
tend to indicate.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:10:43 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays
...
>>>entering combat situations. So, the "added expense" of pumps, tanks, ducts
>>>and filters for ship's bays is a non-issue.  You already have enough to
>>>handle the air in the whole ship.
>>
>>  I've argued that capability at least in warships, but it doesn't follow
that 
>>it's cheap or that a ship can do so for the docking bay that contains it.
...
>        Well, unfortunately its canon as a capability even for Free Traders.

  I can accept that. I don't see that a Type S will be built with pumps to
handle more than the 20-odd Dt of working space it has, let alone whatever
size of docking bay it happens to be in.

...
>        Fluid dynamics ought to be a *cake walk*.

  And of course the engineering will be trivially easy :|

...
>        For every 10dktons, you get a set of "doors" on your vessel or
>station capable of allowing one vessel to launch per turn.  Fifteen minutes
>to launch a starship.... presuming that the crew is ready to go at T:0, the
>only thing that might take 15mins is decompressing the launch bay.  If it
>takes 14 mins for the crew to do PFC's, then the only way to get out in one
>minute is a bubble-lock...  whatever you want for YTU.

  I can accept that interior hangars can be evacuated to tanks, and that
15 minutes would be a safe ballpark for standard OTU hardware. Needless
to say, clipping ships to an exterior and running connectors will be far
simpler (and _much_ cheaper) in most cases.

  FWIW, the cheapest space station hangars - in fact, probably the only
really economically viable ones - will be hollowed out rocks :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:34:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
...
>Future (tm), I expect the pendulum to have swung many times, and I
>expect that information manipulation will be a very high art form.

  One of the few decent books that David Drake put his name on as a
minor contributor went into great detail on this idea - the major 
protagonist was essentially a news massager/middle manager in a very
bad place at a very bad time. A little too lethal for most Trav games...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:34:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starports

>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>Subject: Re: Starports
...
>Here are some references:
...
>I vaguely recall some others.  At least some of them are really just
>airports.  Unfortunately I haven't got time to check.

Knightfall has a detailed downport, but regardless of the cover is DGP's (?) :(
Dragon #59 had both a down and high (hitech, hi-pop; 1 billion Dt!) port in 
the Exonidas Starport (?) article. Pretty well done, IMHO.

 Someone could fake up a port or two from the "Exit Visa" (TB, p.141) or
"Stranded on Arden" descriptions and art.

 I wonder if Edwards AFB can be used as a sample of a low-rated port? :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:03:20 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: T4 Novel
>
>Does anyone have the ISBN (or Author/Title) of the Traveller Novel for T4
>published last year to hand?
>
>As Amazon now has a UK arm I thought I'd have a look to see if they have it...

  M.M.'s Traveller "Gateway to the Stars" P. Askegren,  ISBN 0-671-01188-X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:09:37 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Nightrim Datalog 1.8 Up.

Evening all.

Just thought I'd let you know that the Confederation of Nightrim PBICQ
data log 1.8 has finally been posted to my site.

Things have been kinda slow lately, we didn't play for nearly a month
and this one took me a donkey's age to get around to editing.

Anyway's come check it out and let us know what you think.

It's in the Log Book area...

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Say G'nite Hoss.
- -Ashtabula-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:09:00 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Software proposal

>>  For those of you wondering about the target platform that this will run
>>on,
>> here is a summary of my position on that subject.  I am willing to
>>discuss or
>> debate these views outside the mailing list, but I don't want to chew up TML
>> bandwidth on a platform war.

I don't want to start a platform war, but I'm sure it would be very useful
to  make the program available on as many different platforms as possible.

Would you consider writing it in one of the cross-platform development
frameworks that build on Win32, Mac OS, and Unix? There are free or open
source ones like wxWindows (http://www.wxwindows.org) and YAAF
(http://www.pandawave.com/yaaf/). These are both C++, though.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:39:31 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update

OK, this is weird.  I got the reply that had ">From the Guru of Traveller 3d
art..." at the beginning of it (and believe me I'm blushing from that
comment!!!!!) and I never got the mail that had that comment in it
originally.  Weird.....

Anyway, glad to hear you're working on improving the model even more.  Cool!
I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do with RDS.  What little I've
seen of the program on the net looks like it's pretty capable.  Can't wait
to see what you do with it.

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> Peters
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:50 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update
>
>
> Jesse,
>
> >From the Guru of Traveller 3d art this... Well. I just don't know what
> to say! Thank you.
>
> Lighting is an area I haven't explored in RDS yet. Mainly I've used the
> "stock" lighing that comes with the scene wizard function. I guess I'll
> tackle that after finishing the scout. I am working on a 'burn layer'
> now as well as the antenna.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:49:59 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Starports

Knightfall also has a couple.

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Alan Bradley
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 2:36 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com; lkw@io.com
> Subject: Re: Starports
>
>
> > From: Loren Wiseman
> > I don't remember any actual canon starport layouts (I don't rmember if I
> > did one for Champa Starport when I wrote the JTAS article, and I don't
> have
> > access to my references right now.
>
> Hi Loren.
>
> I've just had a quick flick through some of the books I have
> sitting beside
> me.  There are some canon layouts in various adventures.  Most of the maps
> are pretty sketchy, and they only seem to be downports.
>
> Here are some references:
> 'The Traveller Adventure':  Leedor/Aramis.  The map of Leedor has starport
> pads marked.
> 'Mission on Mithril':  Mithril.  Very small.
> 'Night of Conquest':  Airship port used presumably 'as required'.
>
> I vaguely recall some others.  At least some of them are really just
> airports.  Unfortunately I haven't got time to check.
>
> 'Tarsus' and 'Beltstrike' seem likely places to look.  I'm also sending
> this post to the TML, so maybe someone could check.
>
> I hope this is useful.
>
> Alan Bradley
> alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:47:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Media

- -----Original Message-----
From: Harold D. Hale <hdhale@mindspring.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 16, 1999 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project


>   At the risk of cracking open a 100 liter barrel full of worms, there was
>nothing blurred about Clinton/Lewinsky except the spin control/payoffs to
>liberal Democratic Party members that the White House put out--the same
>sort of spin control/payoffs to liberal Democratic Party members that has
>been in effect since Jan. 20, 1992.  Even people who commit suicide in
>their own office (Vince Foster) are not beyond the spin machine...


With all due respect, your comments have very little to do with the kind of
blurring of reality and fiction in the media that the previous posters were
talking about.

The truth of the matter, whether anybody likes to admit it or not, is that
the news media is just another branch of the media, whose primary interest
is keeping people watching. People don't care whether what's on the tube is
true or false, as long as it's entertaining.

This has nothing to do with "liberal Democratic payoffs" or any such thing.
It's all about ratings, and it's all about what keeps people watching. I
know that my boss and coworkers didn't get their payoffs from the White
House to keep watching, just as Johnny Cochran didn't pay them to sit and
discuss the O.J. Simpson case around the lunch table. If something is
interesting and entertaining, people will watch, and advertisers will keep
advertising.

<ObTrav>: In the Third Imperium, it's entirely likely things will be even
crazier than modern America due to the massive corporate power in the
Imperium and its focus on trade. I can easily imagine shows like Mercs, in
which film crews follow around mercenary crews, filming their exploits.

Also, as the technology of video manipulation gets more and more refined,
there could very well be interesting consequences. After all, it could be
easy to, say, hang a computer generated gigolo off the arm of a prominent
Baroness. The list literally goes on and on. It may not hold up in an
Imperial court of law, but that won't stop the news media of the Third
Imperium.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:11:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Starports 

> At 07:35 AM 7/17/99 +1000, you wrote:
> >I vaguely recall some others.  At least some of them are really just
> >airports.  Unfortunately I haven't got time to check.
> >
> >'Tarsus' and 'Beltstrike' seem likely places to look.  I'm also sending
> >this post to the TML, so maybe someone could check.
> 
> Actually, I've always felt that the White Dwarf article by Thomas M Price
> entitled "Happy Landings - Starport Design in Traveller" was and remains
> the ultimate (to date) resource for the Imperial starport. Although not
> 'officially' canon, and only a three pages in length, the article contains
> a wealth of information on the design of starports. In addition the article
> features eight detailed diagrams of typical Imperial starports ranging from
> Class A all the way down to Class E. I don't have the issue number handy,
> but can look it up if anyone is interested.


What would *help* is if somebody had it, scanned it, & put it on the net 
someplace with the appropriate cites & acknowledgements.  <grin>

I'll check my stash, but I'm out a scanner at the moment.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:02:55 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Starports

Hi Loren,
Just an update on the post I sent you earlier.

Some of what I 'remembered' was probably TNE stuff, or from licencees.  I
may even be thinking of some of my own (*definitely* not canon) material. 

However, 'Beltstrike' seems to have a map of Koenig's Rock, a planetoid
with a lot of starport/startown sevices.  I've only got the text handy -
the map is in storage.  It might be a good basis for a high-port, though.

There could still be other material, particularly in Challenge, but most of
my collection is in storage.

Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>

> > From: Loren Wiseman 
> > I don't remember any actual canon starport layouts (I don't rmember if I
> > did one for Champa Starport when I wrote the JTAS article, and I don't have
> > access to my references right now.
> 
> Hi Loren.
> 
> I've just had a quick flick through some of the books I have sitting beside
> me.  There are some canon layouts in various adventures.  Most of the maps
> are pretty sketchy, and they only seem to be downports.  
> 
> Here are some references:
> 'The Traveller Adventure':  Leedor/Aramis.  The map of Leedor has
starport
> pads marked.  
> 'Mission on Mithril':  Mithril.  Very small.
> 'Night of Conquest':  Airship port used presumably 'as required'.
> 
> I vaguely recall some others.  At least some of them are really just
> airports.  Unfortunately I haven't got time to check.
> 
> 'Tarsus' and 'Beltstrike' seem likely places to look.  I'm also sending
> this post to the TML, so maybe someone could check.
> 
> I hope this is useful.
> 
> Alan Bradley
> alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:49:25 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

At 04:55 PM 7/16/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Does anyone have the ISBN (or Author/Title) of the Traveller Novel for T4
>published last year to hand?
>
>As Amazon now has a UK arm I thought I'd have a look to see if they have
it...
>
>Dom

GATEWAY TO THE STARS by Pierce Askegren. ISBN 0-671-01188-X
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:03:50 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: grandfather's origin and his children

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 6:20 AM
Subject: grandfather's origin and his children


> I think we can safely establish that Grandfather was a freak or mule.  As
> the point would be which other race did or could he have belonged to?
This
> line would lead down the road to Immaculate Conceptions be they divine or
> the culmulation of scientific mystery eg. Phantom's Chosen One.  I don't
> think Traveller needs to go there.  THere are too many egoists believing
> that they are chosen ones.
>    As to the origin of his children.  We only know that he had them.
> Cloning is a long established tradition in Traveller.  While I wouldn't
mind
> breaking with past.  There is a reference, not sure where it talks about
> Grandfather creating his children who were almost as intelligent as he
was.
> Without genetic modification, how could he predict how intelligent his
> children would be without building in some safeguards.  In most cases,
> children in time are more intelligent then their parents simply because
they
> absorb the experience of the parents as being part of the natural
> environment and develop ideas from that basis as a starting point.  As to
> uplifting the whole Droyne race.  It must be remembered not all Droyne
were
> Ancients (and possibly all Ancients were not Droyne).
>   I would welcome if cannon writers could also get involved in this
> discussion.  As their thoughts, would be most welcome.
>
>
 Along that line, of cannon writers getting involved... has any ever
explained where the Annic Nova originated from?  What race, what sector,
etc.  Has any on the list done any detective work to come-up with facts
others have overlooked to determine this information?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:27:11 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 3:14 AM
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update


> At 08:42 AM 7/16/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >OUTSTANDING progression!  See that guys?  Three pictures later and
already a
> >world of difference.  Good job!  Now you just need to add some antenna
> >fairings and turn the ambient light down to 5% or less (hope you have
that
> >option!!!).  There is VERY little ambient light in space.  You may get a
> >little blue fill from a planets surface if you're in orbit, or you can
add a
> >little bit of colored light from a nebula background as well, but it's
> >mainly direct, harsh sunlight with no ambient scatter.
> >
> >Keep it up!
> >Jesse
>
>         I was just impressed by the detailing level...  the warning signs
> around the thrusters, the notching on the iris-valve hatch door...
gorgeous
> work.  I Are Impressed.
>
>         I really ought to figure out POV-ray some time...  <sigh>  When I
> have some time.
>

Yes, I got a free copy of POV-ray with an Adobe product I bought and am
feeling exactly the same way... and this good stuff being touted lately sure
has been inspiring!  But is POV-ray any good for this stuff (advice to us
Jesse?)?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:52:05 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: tech question (really, an example of an urban legend)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
To: TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: tech question (really, an example of an urban legend)


> The Roc wrote :-
> <with regard to the recent problems with the water supply in Sydney,
> Australia> :-
>
> > Oh!  I forgot about that!!  And people did die from that one too!!
>
> No, no, no, no, no! (I thought I wouldn't have to use the mantra too
> often on this list, just at work to the surgeons and some of the more
> rabid physicians. Oh, well...).
>
> Bad memes like this must be stopped before they have a chance to spread
> too far... too late in this case?
>
> A very few people got good doses of food poisoning. There were NO
> fatalities. Fortunately a secondary epidemic of malignant litigation
> appears to have been contained (Factoid : NSW Australia is the second
> most litigious territory in the world now. Sigh....).
> Perhaps you are confused with the unfortunate events that took place at
> Wallis Lake in northern NSW, where several people died from (bacterial
> and viral) hepatitis caught from oysters grown in sewage-contaminated
> water. The fatalities occurred in elderly or already sick people with
> essentially poor physiological reserve.
>

That sounds familiar... I was sure fatalities were reported on Nine News,
but you are closer to what happened than what I am, so I bow to that.  I do
recall the oyster thing almost killing that industry because of the deaths.
Thanks Robert.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:19:55 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
To: TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 5:05 PM
Subject: TML 3d club-Site update


> I replaced the scout/courier picture on my site with a new one. I
> completely rebuilt the model after looking at the one on Jesse's site.
> It's not perfect yet, but it's getting better. Location to art page
> below
>
> http://members.home.net/travelleri/graph.htm
>
> Let me know what you think off list. Sorry to those of you that think
> this is a waste of bandwidth!
>

I don't think the chance to see good graphics is a waste of bandwidth.  In
my opinion, your pics don't have to be hot 3D either, someone doing good
pencil, or ink, or coloured format illustrations would be welcome look-ins
too... many people can only imagine what certain things look like in a game
setting and cannot put an image "on paper" so others can see, and that is a
gift.

Keep up the good work, practice should see improvement, and already your
imagination has given us nice "nose art" on scout couriers... something I
will probably incorporate in my future campaign as a "standard"

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:30:35 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

T4 Novel:

  Gateway to the Stars, by Pierce Askergan
	ISBN: 0-671-01188-X


             Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:29:01 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jargon

Since everyone else is hurling about hunks of jargon, I am, as a compulsive 
etymologist, to point out that, simply speaking,   myth is from the Greek 
word muthos, whihc just means "story", and legend is from Latin legendum 
"something to be read".   Very simple words, with straight forward meanings.  
Most jargon is like that, the use of a simple word from a foreign language to 
cloud the issue.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:01:06 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Mystery Ship revisited

After a bit of searching and swearing, I have not found my old deckplan work 
on the ship from G:T page 3. So I'm starting over. The first pass will be a 
100-ton Vilani Armed Scout. I'll see about reconstituting the 600-ton version 
later.  Early results should be on my site by the end of next week...

GC

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #870
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 17 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 871



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Blair Witch Project.
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: Jargon
Re: tech question
Re: Media
Re: Software proposal
re: T4 Novel
re: starports
Re: tech question
Re: Docking Bays
Re: Speaking of Ancients 
Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Re: Re : tech question
RE: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Speaking of the Ancients -reply
Re: Starport Layouts
Re: T4 Novel
Re: tech question
RE: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: Stop talking about The Blair Witch Project
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: Two Questions 
Re: Two Questions 
RE: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: tech question
Re: Two Questions 
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Enclosed Bays

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:51:15 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Blair Witch Project.

In a message dated 99-07-16 02:06:47 EDT, you write:

<< 
 I bet you go around telling everybody that the Jerry Springer Show and pro
 wrestling are fake too!
  >>
That's right...oh and about that santa thing...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:12:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...


>Yes, I got a free copy of POV-ray with an Adobe product I bought and am
>feeling exactly the same way... and this good stuff being touted lately
sure
>has been inspiring!  But is POV-ray any good for this stuff (advice to us
>Jesse?)?


All copies of POV-Ray are free. That's part of the appeal.

If you want to see some POV-Ray examples, check my site at
http://www.pil.net/~semo/render/ for a few Traveller related examples. You
should probably track down a modeller to use. Check POV-Ray's site (easy to
find with most search engines).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:14:14 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jargon

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: Jargon


>Since everyone else is hurling about hunks of jargon, I am, as a compulsive
>etymologist, to point out that, simply speaking,   myth is from the Greek
>word muthos, whihc just means "story", and legend is from Latin legendum
>"something to be read".   Very simple words, with straight forward
meanings.
>Most jargon is like that, the use of a simple word from a foreign language
to
>cloud the issue.


Unfortunately, we're not speaking in Greek nor are we speaking in Latin. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:28:23 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: tech question

From:           	shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date sent:      	Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:16 PST

> In mail you write:

> > How about this for a problem for the budding merchants, works especially
> > well on worlds with monopoly types of power supplies. The power grid fails
> > and cannot be restored. Luckily our intrepid heroes have this nice fusion
> > power plant in their ship.

> And check out just how *much* power a typical ship generates. More than
> enough for critical services in a small to medium city.

In the winter of 1929, the city of Tacoma, Washington had a total power
outage and the carrier USS Lexington supplied the city with its entire
power needs for a month. And apparently, she wasn't working at full
capacity.


Andrew etc
http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/
    Listening to way to much Dave Brubeck

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:11:21 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Media

> Also, as the technology of video manipulation gets more and more refined,
> there could very well be interesting consequences. After all, it could be
> easy to, say, hang a computer generated gigolo off the arm of a prominent
> Baroness. The list literally goes on and on. It may not hold up in an
> Imperial court of law, but that won't stop the news media of the Third
> Imperium.

As amply demonstrated in "Bug Jack Barron" ( I think, or was it in a John
Brunner book ?)   where the hero is a media presenter who does just that,
takes rumours and provides video showing the rumour. In the Lewinsky case,
that would have involved showing the couple having oral sex on TV, whether
it happened or not

Howard Chaykin also explored this in "Amercan Flagg!" with episode titles
such as "VideoRangers" and "The Revolution will be Televised"


Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:13:01 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Software proposal

> >>  For those of you wondering about the target platform that this will
run
> >>on,
>
> I don't want to start a platform war, but I'm sure it would be very useful
> to  make the program available on as many different platforms as possible.

Which means it should be written in Java  <grin>

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:43:30 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: T4 Novel

>Does anyone have the ISBN (or Author/Title) of the Traveller Novel for
>T4 published last year to hand?

Look in the April 1998 BITS newsletter for a summary.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:46:02 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: starports

>>the article features eight detailed diagrams of typical Imperial >
>starports ranging from Class A all the way down to Class E. 
>Do you know what issue this was in?

White Dwarf 43 (July 1983).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:59:41 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: tech question

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> 
> From:                   shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date sent:              Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:16 PST
> 
> > In mail you write:
> 
> > > How about this for a problem for the budding merchants, works especially
> > > well on worlds with monopoly types of power supplies. The power grid fails
> > > and cannot be restored. Luckily our intrepid heroes have this nice fusion
> > > power plant in their ship.
> 
> > And check out just how *much* power a typical ship generates. More than
> > enough for critical services in a small to medium city.
> 
> In the winter of 1929, the city of Tacoma, Washington had a total power
> outage and the carrier USS Lexington supplied the city with its entire
> power needs for a month. And apparently, she wasn't working at full
> capacity.

This example is actually quite analogous to what a fusion-powered
starship could do.  USS LEXINGTON, like several other US Navy capital
ships of the time, had a turbo-electric drive.  In other words, her
steam turbines were used to generate electricity, which then was used to
power electric motors for propulsion.

Traditional steam-turbine ships could not have provided nearly as much
electric power as "Lady Lex."

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:34:14 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Docking Bays

At 04:42 PM 7/16/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>        Worse, (he said pointing canon around indescriminately)
>>fighter-craft carriers and x-boat tenders exist.  The carriers have launch
>>tubes capable of putting a 50-ton Rampart into space every 30 seconds...
>>you aren't doing that with hatch doors and decompression of spaces.  The
>>tenders, I believe, can bring an X-boat on board for maint....  if it was a
>>dumb idea, x-boat tenders would be a spar with engines at one end, docking
>>collars at intervals and the bridge at the other.  That's not what they look
>>like (ask Jesse ;).
>
>According to AHL, the Flight Ops Deck gets depressurized during flight ops.
>

        I don't have a copy of AHL handy....  how many tons of Flight Deck?
This would pretty much seal shut the issue about depressurization issues for
starport bays, depending on size....

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:37:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients 

> > I think that a careful explanation is in order here.  Was the entire race
> > uplifted?  Are just the clones considered Children?  Does the term Ancients
> > apply only to the single race, or are there others mixed in so that it is
> > the "time period" that is considered when applying the term?
> > 
> > I'm still suspicious of the idea that Grandfather was a freak or a mule, to
> > use Asimov's term.  Seems more plausible that he was a seed casts by another
> > race or entity.  Of course, I will admit that I have visions of Puppeteers
> > dancing in my head.  Is his "origin" cast in concrete or open to discussion?
> 
> Actually I still feel that there is room for expansion on the Ancients
> and Grandfather. I don't have the DGP stuff so I'm not sure how set in
> concrete they were, but the original explanation for Grandfather came
> from Grandfather! Who's to say if he was telling the truth or not? And
> why is he hiding in a pocket universe? The explanation, that he's bored
> with the universe, sounds a bit shakey to me.

There's a bunch of variant history being written in my PBEM, but I won't go 
into it here.  Too many of my players read the TML.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:11:01 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 15 July 1999 22:02
Subject: Re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster
modules)


>> For the umpteenth time.

>Exactly how high is umpteen?  I've always wondered about that :P

More than umpth, less than umptieth. ;P

Matt

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:34:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re : tech question

At 05:45 AM 7/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>This may be a little behind on this thread.  In Larry Niven's "Known Space"
>universe flying with out being under computer control over a populated area
>is the death penalty on Earth.

Only during the organ bank era.  At that time, almost anyhting got you
disassembled and put into the tanks.

Later, things changed.  Remember Beowulf's reaction to the racers on what's
left of the Santa Monica freeway in _Elephant_?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:44:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients

At 11:09 AM 7/16/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Is Grandfather hiding from an even more powerful force ala "Heechee"?
>Is Grandfather really the Ancient one or is he a pretender to the throne, or
>possibly someone left by the real Grandfather to keep tabs on us and his
>experiments, until we are ready, or until we show signs of getting too
>advanced/aggressive?
>
>Did he construct his pocket universe with customized natural laws and
>constants.  A slightly different gravitational constant?  Different
>strong/weak forces?  Does time pass differently in his universe allowing him
>more time to analyze and react to things in ours, or to allow him to view
>changes in out universe at an accelerated rate?

In my Illuminated Traveller setting, Grandfather is waiting for one race or
the other to show that they will be suitable assistants/workers.  He's
partial to the Droyne (natch!), so he keeps giving them little boosts, like
the Coyn ceremony for casting, but they have been a major disappointment.

His pocket universe does have a different flow of time, and Grandfather
spends most of his time in a semi-comatose state, stirring every few
centuries to examine the state of the universe, and perhaps meddling a little.

In dead R'yleah, dread Yaskodray lies dreaming... and the Stars are almost
right for his return!

(odd footnote: My spell checker choked on R'yleah, and it's first
suggestion was Sylea! hmmm....)
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:46:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of the Ancients -reply

At 05:52 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:
>  Which makes me want to set the homeworld 
>in previously unknown space (eg Trojan Reaches).  But, where else but the 
>Marches are there so many Ancient sites.  

Marc has stated that the Ancient home world was in Regina Subsector, but
was moved.  IMTU, Andor/Candory served as administration worlds for
Grandfather.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:46:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starport Layouts

At 04:42 PM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>Are there canon layouts for any specific starports? If not, I need
>>volunteers to design them. They need to be based on reality as much as
>>possible, which means they have to be laid out in a rational fashion, and
>>should be based as closely as possible on real-world airports (putting
>>aside for the moment whether they should be based on seaports or neither
>>one).
>
>At least one has been included on a map Aramis/Spinward Marches, in _The
>Traveller Adventure_.

JTAS #7 had Champa Insterstellar Starport as it's cover feature.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:44:11 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

At 22:30 16.07.99 -0400, you wrote:
>You sure you want it?
>
>ISBN:  0-671-0118-X
>Gateway to the Stars
>Author: Pierce Askegan
>
>But, seriously, don't waste your time.  Its not even a good doorstop.
Hey, but it says Traveller right there...
...and weve bought worse in the last couple of years (FS anybody???)...
...so that should be reason enough to spend the money, if you collect, at
least.
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:39:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> Dealing with cryos for my past work places, the hard rules are:
>
> If the liquid gas is not actively being pressurized and temperatures being 
> actively maintained, it will have to vented constantly. None of the above 
> then you have a container rupture in time. The time depends of the cross 
> sectional area of the gas container versus the temp around the container.
>
> As for the perfect insulator that you have mentioned well it brings up many 
> issues. With the heat that the ship's power will generate even a 99% 
> efficient insulator, will have the cryos changing states.

In space, you have an unlimited supply of *hard* vacuum. Also, you have
access to a 3 Kelvin "heatsink". That's going to make maintaining cryo
temps *much* easier. 

You'll still have to work at it a bit, but it's got to be *lots*
simpler than in a planetary atmosphere.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:41:13 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update...

> Yes, I got a free copy of POV-ray with an Adobe product I bought and am
> feeling exactly the same way... and this good stuff being touted
> lately sure
> has been inspiring!  But is POV-ray any good for this stuff (advice to us
> Jesse?)?
>
> --  The Roc


If you can't afford one of the entry level programs (approximately $400-500
range) then you can still do decent work with it.  It's harder, AFAIK, to
make the textures appear more real.  The exception was the recent cutter
module by Chris.  That had the more detailed texturing that I've ever seen
from PovRay.  If you start playing with it, you may want to talk to Chris
about how he did it.  It is extremely easy to create things like swoopy
little speeders, etc, that don't really need texturing.

Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:53:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stop talking about The Blair Witch Project

At 04:16 PM 7/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Please--some of us get the digest and can't delete or otherwise skip
>messages without seeing them first.  Take it off-list perhaps, or maybe
>there is already a BWP ML?

I think I'm the only person who's seen the film, and I've been extremely
careful about spoilers.  I just wanted to alert everyone to an excellent
film.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:00:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

>If you want to see some POV-Ray examples, check my site at
>http://www.pil.net/~semo/render/ for a few Traveller related examples. You
>should probably track down a modeller to use. Check POV-Ray's site (easy to
>find with most search engines).

On the statue/standard bearer, you'll want to move the breasts up a notch.
They're a little low on the torso.

Don't look at me funny, this advice came from my wife.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:02:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

At 11:30 AM 7/16/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/15/99 10:28:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>phelpsd@gate.net writes:

>	You are one awesome dude,   I like your campaign idea and this list 
>of nasty tricks!   How about a net made of thick cables which is attached to 
>a backhoe.  Just hoist the BD soldier up and smash him repeatedly against a 
>wall. 

Works until the BD equipped trooper slags your backhoe with one shot. 

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:11:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

At 10:18 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I've got a couple of questions for the list. Has anyone run a hybrid
merchant\mercenary scenario where the PCs are the repo-men repossessing
starships. 

Ah, the Skip-Tracer.  The one TNE campaign I enjoyed. Set in the Regency,
we played the crew of the Type S "Bofa", tracking down bad debts of all kinds.

I played a lawyer, Eneri Sedleman, Esq.  Had a lot of fun with him, since
he wasn't much on combat, but once we had the crew subdued, I'd stride up,
open my briefcase, and start my lawyer rap.

>Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could a
numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force use to
stop a squad in battle dress.

Hit and run, use anti-tank weapons, use a lot of traps.  A good one would
be a pressure plate or pneumatic tube connected to the firing mechanism of
a light anti-tank weapon.  Set the threshold to a high enough weight so
that your own troops won't set it off, but the BD Trooper will.  He runs
down the alley, steps on the trigger, and WHOOSH-BANG.

The only other option is to do a fade.  Either the BD troopers will leave,
allowing other, easier to kill, troops to occupy the area, or eventually,
they'll take off their helmets to eat.  That's when your sniper, operating
a remote controlled AMR, fires.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:49:08 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Software proposal (longish?)

Then there is always the three bodies (two stars and a planet) all orbiting
in ellipses. What temperature variation would the planet have?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:58:42 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

At 08:00 AM 17/07/1999, you wrote:
>>If you want to see some POV-Ray examples, check my site at
>>http://www.pil.net/~semo/render/ for a few Traveller related examples. You
>>should probably track down a modeller to use. Check POV-Ray's site (easy to
>>find with most search engines).
>
>On the statue/standard bearer, you'll want to move the breasts up a notch.
>They're a little low on the torso.
>
>Don't look at me funny, this advice came from my wife.
>-- 
>
>Doug Berry

        Suuuuuure it did, Doug...  <VEG>

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:42:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: tech question

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:22:02 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com
> (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>"Blowups Happen" was Heinlein. But Piper had a story about nuclear
>>plant safety (I can't recall the title) that was *very* disturbing.
>
> I suspect you're thinking of 'Day of the Morons'. Any sort of
> description of the story I could post that would unambiguously ID
> the story would also be a spoiler, which I am reluctant to post.

That's the one. And there are two "identifiers" I can think of. First,
"large chunk of plutonium". 

Second, that *damned* memory test. 

One hen
two ducks
three squawking geese
Four Limerick oysters
five corpulent porpoises
Six pairs of Don Alphonso tweezers
Seven thousand Macedonians in full battle array
Eight golden crowns for the ancient, sacred crypts of Egypt
Nine lymphatic, asthmatic, peripatetic old men on crutches
Ten revolving heliotropes from the Ipsey Wipsey Institute.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:34:56 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Two Questions 

In a message dated 7/17/99 12:27:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< 
 Works until the BD equipped trooper slags your backhoe with one shot. 
  >>
Well, that's what the net is for.   He steps on the net, a spotter gives a 
signal to the backhoe around the corner, the net is hoisted tight, so he 
can't get a chance to aim, and swing away.

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:03:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

In mail you write:

> Java was a great idea.  Its implementation was less than stellar.  And when 
> MicroShaft tried to Windowsize it, Java went to hell.
>  
>> As for browsers and java, it seems to work a little better but is still
>> slow to load.
>
> If you don't use IE, Java has a tendancy to not work so well.  Could be 
> cause a lot of sites use the M$ version of Java rather than the Sun version.

Which is why Sun *sued* MS for violating the Java standard. Last I
heard was that they'd won. MS has only two options (not counting
appeals). 

1. adhere to the standard
2. Call their "non-Java" something else. 

It should be *real* interesting to see which way they jump.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:05:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

In mail you write:

>         One thing to consider is that we know (canonically, that is) that
> ships can pump out all the atmosphere in the whole vessel and store it
> somewhere small within the ship.  This is done as a matter of course when
> entering combat situations. So, the "added expense" of pumps, tanks, ducts
> and filters for ship's bays is a non-issue.  You already have enough to
> handle the air in the whole ship.

Good point. Except we don't *really* know that this is true except for
*miltary* vessels. Among other things, it *really* screws up long term
life support setups (hydroponics, aeroponics, etc). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #871
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 17 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 872



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Speaking of Ancients 
Re: water rights
Re: Two Questions
Re: Equitorial Settlement
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: Starports
Re: Tech question
Re: Grav-influenced cities
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die 
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:08:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

In mail you write:

> I agree with Micheal V. that we often under-estimate the technological
> capabilities of the Imperium.  I'm sure Leonardo Da Vinchi had a engineer
> buddy who kept pestering him about technicalities with his flying machine 
> idea: 
>
> "It'll *never* work.  Do you *know* what kind of loads you'll be
> creating?"
>
> "Maybe someone will come up with stronger materials"
>
> "But you have to be realistic!  Our best metals come *nowhere near* having
> enough strength or lightness!  Even with improvements in smithing
> technology, steel will always be too heavy!" 
>
> "Maybe someone will come up with a different material."
>
> "Impossible, we've discovered all the basic substances there are.  Woods
> are *way* too weak, metals are *way* too heavy."

And right here you've departed from reality. Woods *are* strong enough.
As an example, let me point out the infamous "Spruce Goose" which is
both the biggest plane ever built *and* made out of wood!

> "There could be light metals we haven't found yet."
>
> "Light metals?  It goes against *everything* we know of physics!"

Again, you've just departed from reality. Physics did not exists AS A
SCIENCE until Newton (or maybe Galileo if you want to argue). Likewise,
chemistry started about the time that phlogiston was thrown out. And
Astronomy started wth Copernicus.

> The point is that alot of the nitpicks people come up with on this list to
> say that ideas are impossible/improbable/implausible are engineering
> problems disguised as physical limitations by our present ignorance of
> future physics.  And some are mere engineering problems.

Sorry, but one of the ways to distinguish a field that is a science
from one that isn't is that for a science, any future theories have to
*include* present theories as "simplified theories" that work in the
range of conditions with which we are currently familar.

So, for example, *in spite* of Einstein, Newton's laws are still
perfectly valid. You just have to add a note that there are corrections
for speeds nears c and for intensely curved space. 

So hile we do not and CANNOT have absolute knowledge, we can (and do!)
know that we *do* know the rules that apply under conditions we are
familiar with. Any new rules have to miniscule effects under familiar
conditions and only have significant effects under *unfamiliar*
conditions. 

To put it another way, any new rules *have* to give the same results as
the old rules under familiar conditions, because if they didn't, then
they don't explain *why* we got those results under familiar
conditions. That ios, they'd explain the *new* conditions, bt fail to
explain everyday conditions. Which is an immediate flunk for a theory.

So the fact that Newton's rules *replaced* Aristotle's, and
Copernicus's rules replaced Ptolemy's is *irrelevant. That's because
those are cases of a *non*-science "theory" (ones based on "this sounds
logical") being replaced by a scientific one ("we've made measurements
and run tests, and these formulas describe the rules that seem to
apply") 

And as I noted we actually *do* have a pretty good idea of what the
maximum possible strength for materials are. It's set by the strength
of interatomic bonds. Which we've been able to measure for at least 50
years. 

We're not there yet, and, in fact, it's not likely that any macroscopic
object *can* reach the limit set by bonding forces. But we are getting
rather close. 

If something requires a tensile strength *greater* than the bonding
forces between atoms, then you can't build it unless you can mess with
bonding forces. Which opens up a *huge* can of worms. 

So there's a lot less "wiggle room" than you may like to think.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:53:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?)

In mail you write:

>> At 08:19 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >The star system data file should be something like Galactic or Traveller 
>> >Tools format.  Personally, I prefer the Traveller Tools format.  No 
> offense, 
>> >Jim.
>> 
>> The main problem is that, at least with Galactic, there doesn't seem to be
>> a way for me to keep track of everything I'm wanting -- the data structure
>> for an individual world (or moon) in the pre-prototype I have is about 140
>> bytes long as a binary file, ignoring the space I'm alloting for the system
>> name.  I haven't seen Traveller Tools yet -- should I go track it down?
>
> What I mean by 'star system data file' is, the file that holds the bare 
> bones 
> system information like yeah, there's a gas giant here, yeah there's a port 
> here, here's the main world stats.  You can reference the rest off of files 
> that are indexed to occupied hexes.

My approach would be to have a file that goes by orbit position or some
such. Here's a "tabular" representation of such a file:

Orbit	sub	Name	  file
- -----   ---	--------  ---------
2	0	Mercury	  xxxx0200
3	0	Venus	  xxxx0300
4	0	Terra	  xxxx0400
4	1	Luna	  xxxx0401
5	0	Mars	  xxxx0500
5	1	Phobos	  xxxx0501
5	2	Deimos 	  xxxx0502
6	0	Ceres	  xxxx0600
6	1	Pallas	  xxxx0601
6	2	Vesta	  xxxx0602
...
6	ZZ	Myzptlk	  xxxx06ZZ
7	0	Jupiter	

You get the idea. The "sub" is to account for moons, and for major
bodies sharing the same orbit. You could add other fields to give
things like "is mainworld" and "star/planet/asteroid/moon".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:53:15 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients 

> Date:          Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:07:23 -0400 (EDT)
> From:          owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
> To:            traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:       Traveller-digest V1999 #871
> Reply-to:      traveller@lists.imagiconline.com

> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:37:36 -0400
> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>

> > Actually I still feel that there is room for expansion on the Ancients
> > and Grandfather. I don't have the DGP stuff so I'm not sure how set in
> > concrete they were, but the original explanation for Grandfather came
> > from Grandfather! Who's to say if he was telling the truth or not? And
> > why is he hiding in a pocket universe? The explanation, that he's bored
> > with the universe, sounds a bit shakey to me.

The explanations for Grandfather, IIRC, were given in an OOC mode, 
setting the norm for the OTU <ducking>. That is, yo ucan say they 
were given from game creators to referees, nothing In-Character.
 
> There's a bunch of variant history being written in my PBEM, but I won't go 
> into it here.  Too many of my players read the TML.
> Keven

I can say exactly the same.... guess we both will eventually have a 
chance to discover each other's variant, eh, Keven?

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:47:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: water rights

In mail you write:

>       What they have found so far is that those tunnels leak.  A lot.
> It will be a major undertaking to reseal them.
>
>      The water billing system in NYC doesn't put much pressure on them to 
> do so.  NYC residents are not billed on actual water usage.  They are 
> billed for the number of faucets they have.

What I'd read said that the billing was based on *frontage*. So if my
property has 50 feet of boundary along the street, and yours has 100,
you'd pay twice what I did.

But my info is based on a (seemingly well researched) novel from the
60s. "The Day New York Went Dry" by Pyhllis Eisentien(sp)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:53:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two Questions

In mail you write:

> At 22:18 15/07/1999 -0400, you "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures could a
> numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force use to
> stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command detonated mines
> to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure hoses of salt water
> with electric currents run through them to knock them down and possibly
> short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way to drop them into a hole
> and then filling the hole with cement?  How about spraying them with some
> kind of quick setting super epoxy that would render them immobile?  Those
> are the only ideas I have and and I admit some are a bit off the wall.
> Anyone have any other thoughts?       
>
> Most of those are either easy to spot, only work close in or require
> too much vulnerable infrastructure.
>
> At twentieth century tech, I'd go for an anti tank gun.
>
> Even just a 40mm AA/AT gun. Your armour might not be penetrated
> but your Marine is going to be lying on his back.
>
> At close ranges, think of anything used anti-tank.
> Not those concrete bollards or anti-tank ditches though.
> Sticky bombs come to mind.

Actually, if you have them *inside* a structure, the infamous "liquid
banana peel" may be useful. If you've got *no* traction, that augmented
strength ain't gonna do you any good.

I can see them trying to use the equivalent of "ice axes" to stick into
the walls or floor and pull themselves along. But if you hit them with
another spray of LBP, they may have trouble holding onto the "ice axe".

And I'd *love* to see someone trying to use grenades or any sort of
weapon that isn't "built-in".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:01:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Equitorial Settlement

In mail you write:

> Equatorial launch sites are the lowest energy, hence highest payload,
> sites to launch to geosynchronous orbits and equatorial orbits. You have
> the highest rotational velocity to add to the launch speed, and every
> erg counts when there's a 3 billon dollar comms satellite yoiu're
> putting up.
>
> That's why ArianeSpace's launch site is where it is, and why several
> African nations, if they ever get their political and infrastructure
> houses in order could become quite wealthy from being launch sites.

And as Clarke pointed out long ago, New Guinea is both on the Equator
*and* has high mountains. 

The three "best" potential launch sites are:

1. New Guinea
2. Ecuador
3. Kenya (Mt. Kilimajaro).

Ecuador's biggest problem is that they'd have to launch over Brazil,
and Brazil might not be real happy about pieces of aborted launch
vehicle falling down on them.

Mt. Kilamanjaro is also a fair ways from the coast. So it too has the
potential to rain pieces of rocket on people. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:26:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

In mail you write:

> On the other hand, if you have a combat ship and it does depressurize,
> everyone needs to be in vacc-suits running on pumped oxygen, so it is likely
> that all stations and staterooms will have piped oxygen anyway, because you
> don't want to use suit gas until you have to.
>
> For redundancy,and especially in military ships it would make sense for each
> area, may be each room,  to have it's own oxygen supply, but for ease of
> replenishment, it would make sense if these system were all connected to
> some centralized point as well, with automatic pressure seals.

Actually, you need this, or something like this, just to meet *safety*
standards. It's like ocean liners being required to be divided into
watertight compartments that can be sealed off from the rest of the
ship. 

So even passenger liners will be divided into sections by airtight
bulkheads, with automatic doors to seal them off. And they'll have some
sort of minimal life support (stored air, maybe some filtration
capability, maybe merely oxygen candles). 

BTW, if a pressure loss alarm goes off *don't* be in the way of a door
in one of the "airbreak" bulkheads. It *will* close. In fact, it is
probably spec'ed to close even with a pressure suited human "blocking"
it. 

If it's a "cheap" setup, the door will be a single door and require
overrides to open with a pressure difference bewteen the sides. So if
you need access to a partially or totally depressurized section, you
eith bleed in air, or you set up a portable airlock over the hatch.

If it's a good setup, all doors thru the bulkhead will be airlocks. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:53:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update...


>range) then you can still do decent work with it.  It's harder, AFAIK, to
>make the textures appear more real.  The exception was the recent cutter
>module by Chris.  That had the more detailed texturing that I've ever seen
>from PovRay.  If you start playing with it, you may want to talk to Chris


The real problem is with Moray, the modelling program with the most features
for POV-Ray. It's quite difficult to make funky shapes with it. You can make
something like a lab ship, a modular cutter or a merc cruiser, but it's
harder to churn out stuff with more interesting or organic shapes.

Yes, if anyone starts working with Moray and POV-Ray, just drop me an email
and I'll be glad to send along any help I can with doing decent textures
with it.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:03:16 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

>I don't remember any actual canon starport layouts (I don't rmember if I
>did one for Champa Starport when I wrote the JTAS article, and I don't have
>access to my references right now.

MTJ 3 has plans for the naval station at Depot/Corridor. I could send a
scan,but IMHO it's not a good design. Problems include no parkbays for
ships over 1000 dtons, ONE (1) landing strip for airframe craft, and no
stats for the highport.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:12:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech question

In mail you write:

>>> You can pump most of the atmosphere into adjoining sections or tanks, 
> prior 
>>> to opening the doors. Cheap.
>
>>Time consuming. Check out the sort of pumps required. It takes a long
>>time to pump *anything* out to a near vacuum unless you use a pump
>>almost as big as the volume you are pumping out. 
>
> Is that a basic limitation or can we expect that to improve with TL? 

I'm fairly sure it's a basic limitation. Remember, your "pump" has to
accept input at the *ambient* pressure of the volume you are trying to
pump down. Which means that as the pressure drops, the *amount* of gas
in the volume of the pump drops rapidly.

Turbine pumps are pretty much useless for acieving low pressures. So at
least to get from standard pressure to "fairly low" (a "roughing pump")
you use what amounts to a piston pump. Many are rotary, but the
principle is the same. 

You have a chamber that is open to the volume you wish to pump out. A
valve then closes, isolating the volume. The volume is then compressed
(either piston or rotary mechanism). Another valve opens allowing the
high pressure air to flow into the storage tank. 

So, let's assume we've got a 1m x 1m x 1m pump volume that compresses
down to 1m x 1m x 1 mm. That outputs air at 1000 times the input
pressure (and that takes a *strong* piston!).

Storage pressure will *not* be that high. Consider. If you store the
air at 1000 atm, once the *input* pressure to the pump drops below 1
atm, it can no longer *achieve* 1000 atm output pressure, so the check
valve on the storage tank won't open!

If we drop the storage pressure to 100 atm, then the pump can store air
until in the input pressure drops to .1 atm (1.5 psi). Hmmm. That's not
a very good vaccuum. 

So, it looks like we'll need a multi-stage pump. That way we can get
down to a lower pressure without have to use a ridiculously low storage
pressure. 

So we gang up *two* such pumps, with a storage vessel inbetween them. 

This lets us use 100 atm (1500 psi, or 100 kgf/cm^2) for the "final"
storage. 

BTW, I'm ignoring the "leftover" gas inside the piston after the
pressure with the storage tank equalizes. The residual gas sets
*another* limit on how low a pressure the pump can reach.

Ok, let's get back to that first stage pump. We'll assume that we are
pumping out 100 m^2. Each stroke removes 1 m^3 of the *remaining* air.
Resulting in a new pressure that is .99^(number of strokes) of the
starting pressure. That .99 is 
	(vol to be pumped)-(vol of pump stroke)
        ---------------------------------------
	(vol to be pumped)

	pressure
stroke  after stroke
- ------  ------------
1	.99 atm
2	.98 atm
3	.97 atm
4	.96 atm
5	.95 atm
6	.94 atm
7	.93 atm
8	.92 atm
9	.91 atm
10	.90 atm
20	.82 atm
30	.74 atm
40	.67 atm
50	.61 atm
60	.55 atm
70	.49 atm
80	.45 atm
90	.40 atm
100	.37 atm
200	.13 atm
300	.05 atm
400	.02 atm
500	.01 atm

Ok, great. .01 atm is "close enough" and it only took 500 strokes. But
that was with a 1:100 pump to volume ratio. Lets try that again, but
for 1000, 10k, and 100k m^3 volumes. The relevant ratios are .999,
.9999 and .99999.

The quick way of getting the answer is log(pressure)/log(ratio).

volume	strokes	time (at 1 stroke/sec)
- -------	-------	----------------------
    100	    458	    00:07:38
  1,000	  4,603	    01:16:43
 10,000	 46,049     12:47:29
100,000	460,515  5d 07:55:15

So as you can see, the time to pump out depends on the ratio of sizes
*and* goes up somewhat *faster* than linearly as the ratio increases.

And a pump that take 7 minutes for 100 m^3 takes an hour and a quarter
for 1000 m^3 (semi-acceptable) and almost 13 *hours* for 10k. It's
totally unacceptable for 100k (5.3 *days*).

> [I believe modern submarines routinely use electrolysis of water for 
> replacement oxygen.]

But they've got access to "unlimited" amounts of water. :-)

> The spare Nitrogen you may have to take tanked at high pressure. I
> bet that is nowhere near as small unless you can store it at ten
> thousands pounds per square inch.

I rather expect that carrying it as liquid is *much* simpler, given
that the ship already has to carry huge amounts of even *colder* gases.

> I was afraid of that but wasn't sure if it was safer/lighter/cheaper
> to carry pressurised nitrogen or a liquid source, say ammonia
> solution NH4-OH. You could electrolyse out the nitrogen and oxygen
> together - and tank or discard the excess oxygen. You would need
> about thirty three litres per DT of air.

Liquid ammonia is much easier to store. It will liquefy under fairly
low pressures even at *normal* temperatures. That's why it is used
extensively in *commercial* refrigeration units. 

> I was trying to explore alternative inert components so that I could 
> identify a suitable liquid source.

> [Any submariners on the list know what subs use?]

Subs aren't likely to lose nitrogen. After all, it's not reactive.

>>Also, if you store the atmosphere at 100 atm pressure, that means you
>>need 1 dT of volume *inside* the storage tank for every 100 dt of space
>>in the bay. And that tank is resisting a force of almost 27,400 *tons*
>>attempting to break it open. 
>
> On an x-boat tender you have that handy cargo deck you could use to store the
> air, at only a few atmospheres, most ships have something similar. You could
> just increase pressure slightly in the rest of the ship. 

No you can't. Not without recertifying *every* item that either
maintains pressure or is exposed to it. To give you one simple example,
increase the air pressure by say, 20% and your canned goods and other
sealed items will start to crush from the difference between internal
and external pressure. 

CRTs will tend to implode. And they'll fail at a greater rate as air
leaks past seals.

>>> Life support - atmosphere recycling - is only required for air that is 
>>> breathed, which wont change whether the bay is open or closed. All that
>>> is required, above  what you already have, is ducting & heating. Cheap.
>
>>Sorry, but you just flunked life support 101. You have to circulate and
>>filter *all* of that air. Otherwise it can accumulate toxins, get
>>depleted in oxygen, or otherwise be Very Bad News for anyone exposed to
>>it. 
>
> Huh? The total amount of air in the ship is the same regardless of
> whether the bay is in vacuum or not.

Wrong. The amount of air that *has to be circulated, temperature
controlled and filtered varies *directly*. Remember, you *can't* merely
run up the pressure in the rest of the ship. 

> The total number of people breathing atmosphere wont change (much).
> So the toxin removal, CO2 removal, oxygen replacement requirements wont
> change. Yes you have to pump air to more places as I said.

You missed the point. Those requirements are *not* based on the number
of people using the air. They are based on the volume of air that has
to be processed. Really. Check with an HVAC engineer. Except for
extreme cases, the required circulation is based on *volume*, not
occupancy. As in "x number of complete air changes per hour". 

If people are going to live/work in that volume, you *must* "change"
the air (ie circulate a volume equal to the volume of air in the area)
so many times per hour. And on board ship "circulate" includes removing
excess CO2, adjusting humidity to be within the correct range (usually
this means removing excess water), filtering out dust, filtering out
unwanted "trace" gases, and adjusting temperature of the airflow.

All a higher ratio of volume to people does is give you a bigger
"buffer" to work with. That is, if you have a *large* area with few
people in it, you can skimp on the changes. But it's not a good idea.
It's the sort of thing you reserve for when there are problems with the
system.

>>And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. <snip>
>
> I thought we had already determined that trav ships have a heat problem and 
> that they can dump heat efficiently (using near magical radiators) :-)

That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.

To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
*below* room temp.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:42:48 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Grav-influenced cities

>I recall a 1970's TV Movie/TV Show, _Fantastic Voyage_ (IIRC). It 
>could have been an inspiration piece for the current _Sliders_
>series - in _Fantastic Voyage_, a group of people are trapped in 
>some kind of dimensional vortex in the Bermuda Triangle, and deal
>with all sorts of societies and worlds in their attempts to get home.

The series was called "Fantastic Journey". "Fantastic Voyage" was
the movie in which a small submarine and its four-person crew were
shrunk down to the size of a microbe and injected into some person
so that they could do some pinpoint surgery from the inside. It later
spawned a Saturday morning cartoon show that I also dimly remember...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:33:00 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

Quick comment: I recognized the setup for the movie as Hollywood
right from the beginning. If this had *really* happened, we would
never, ever see the footage that the vanished kids had shot -- the
law-enforcement types would be spending a long time going over every
single frame they shot, looking for clues as to their disappearance.

But hey, they said "Fire in the Sky" (1993) was based on a true story
too...

:)


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:33:08 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Rock & Roll Will Never Die 

Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>

> > The 'Flaming Droyne and the Death Ancients' 
> > Now THATS a rock band. 
> > They might even know three chords. (collectively, that is...;-)
> 
> 
> But they're nowhere NEAR as good as the "original" lineup, which 
> went by the name of 'Death Droyne and the Flaming Ancients'
> They had to change their name because the abbreviation DDatFA 
> was used by the old Prog-Rockers 'Death Dragon and the Flaming 
> Assassins'.

IMTU bands tend to have at least a three part name.  The
Imperium is a big
place, so it has a lot of bands, so they need long names to distinguish
themselves.  A lot of bands will include someone's name in
the band name so you can more easily tell who which band
their are.  There might be a dozen bands
named Flaming Droyne so one could be named Eneri's Flaming
Droyne to distinguish it from Suzy's Flaming Droyne and
Chaka's Flaming Droyne.

An example band description from my current musician PBEM
character's past

"Juloa's next big gig was with the group Touring Nonstop
Drugblast; one of the first pro Scout Brew groups to make it
big outside the Scout Bar scene. Unfortunately Touring
Nonstop Drugblast did not just sing about Scout brew they
drank it and encouraged their entourage, including their
ships Astrogator, to use it. In retrospect a catastrophic
misjump was inevitable.. "

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:42:26 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

One other point for those contemplating "joining the club". I've seen a
number of magazines giving away copies of Truespace 2. I have a copy
from one of the magazines and it seems a reasonable program, even though
the interface is a bit screwy. You'll need to grab a book to learn what
some of the icons mean. 

I played with this for a while and found it reasonable powerful. I'd
probable still use it except that RDS5 was much closer to CorelDream (
they were made by the same company) and I was more familiar with the
interface. Of, course I'm still a novice so filter these comments with
that fact.

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:25 PM
> Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update...
> 
> >range) then you can still do decent work with it.  It's harder, AFAIK, to
> >make the textures appear more real.  The exception was the recent cutter
> >module by Chris.  That had the more detailed texturing that I've ever seen
> >from PovRay.  If you start playing with it, you may want to talk to Chris
> 
> The real problem is with Moray, the modelling program with the most features
> for POV-Ray. It's quite difficult to make funky shapes with it. You can make
> something like a lab ship, a modular cutter or a merc cruiser, but it's
> harder to churn out stuff with more interesting or organic shapes.
> 
> Yes, if anyone starts working with Moray and POV-Ray, just drop me an email
> and I'll be glad to send along any help I can with doing decent textures
> with it.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 99 18:05:00 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

On 07/15/99 at 12:41 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> said:

>> Alan Bradley wrote:
>> And whoever the ...uh... sophont was that manipulated the Impies into
>> developing Virus was truly _brilliant_!  This one development (along
>> with the "Empress Wave") brought down nearly _all_ interstellar
>> cultures, with _one_ major exception....

>Two.  The Regency survived as well, relatively unscathed.

Ah, but the Empress Wave hasn't arrived in the Regency yet, and it'll be a few
decades yet for our corn dog loving friends, THEN it'll be _all_ the
interstellar cultures. ;->

Eris, 
    chaos for the masses
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #872
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 873



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Software proposal(plus shameless plug)
Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: Docking Bays
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)
Re: Speaking of the Ancients -reply
Re: Speaking of Ancients 
RE: TML 3d club-Site update...
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)
RE: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)
RE: Thermal Shock on Lasers
RE: Tech question
RE: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)
RE: Two Questions
RE: tech question
Nightrim Data log 1.9
Re: Starports
Re: Starports
Isn't this Strange?
Re: tech question
RE: Isn't this Strange?
RE: Isn't this Strange?
Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging
Re: T4 Novel
re: Starports
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)
Re: T4 Novel
RE: Isn't this Strange?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:26:36 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: Software proposal(plus shameless plug)

> I don't want to start a platform war, but I'm sure it would be very useful
> to  make the program available on as many different platforms as possible.
> 
> Would you consider writing it in one of the cross-platform development
> frameworks that build on Win32, Mac OS, and Unix? There are free or open
> source ones like wxWindows (http://www.wxwindows.org) and YAAF
> (http://www.pandawave.com/yaaf/). These are both C++, though.

I don't know about YAAF, but I built Mark's Traveller Utilities (recently 
updated, now version 0.9.2 available at http://www.visi.com/~markn/ ) with
wxWindows.  Version 1.6X of wxWindows across 16 and 32 bit windows and Motif 
on many *n*x platforms works like a champ.  The 2.0 version (which I'm using
for Mark's Traveller Utilities available at http://www.visi.com/~markn/)
may not be as well in sync, but does provide an excellent framework.

ObTrav:  Well, I did say this was a shameless plug, so......  
I just updated Mark's Traveller Utilities to version 0.9.2.  This is a bug
fix realease, and I think it's ready, if not damn close, for public consumption.
It's available at (one more time :) http://www.visi.com/~markn/

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:20:05 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...

> On the statue/standard bearer, you'll want to move the breasts up a notch.
> They're a little low on the torso.
>
Hangers! Some of us like 'em like that. ;)

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 17:28:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Docking Bays

>From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
>Subject: Re: Docking Bays
...
>>According to AHL, the Flight Ops Deck gets depressurized during flight ops.
>
>        I don't have a copy of AHL handy....  how many tons of Flight Deck?
>This would pretty much seal shut the issue about depressurization issues for
>starport bays, depending on size....

  Two hangar decks ~80% of the way back, each 18m high, and ~35x60m. That's
over-doing it a bit, but call it nearly a Kt per hangar deck; it appears that
a good chunk of the launch tube volume is being included. 

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 21:15:25 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)

Hello????  SPOILER!!!!!!


The fact that its a hoax IS the spoiler!

Please.  Some people don't know this yet.

I'm losing interest in seeing it with everyone talking
about how 'obvious' a hoax it was.


Bloo


cos 90 wrote:

> Quick comment: I recognized the setup for the movie as Hollywood
> right from the beginning. If this had *really* happened, we would
> never, ever see the footage that the vanished kids had shot -- the
> law-enforcement types would be spending a long time going over every
> single frame they shot, looking for clues as to their disappearance.
>
> But hey, they said "Fire in the Sky" (1993) was based on a true story
> too...
>
> :)
>
>      Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
>         "There is no longer any normal to be"
>                                  -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:46:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)

At 09:15 PM 7/17/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello????  SPOILER!!!!!!
>
>
>The fact that its a hoax IS the spoiler!
>
>Please.  Some people don't know this yet.
>
>I'm losing interest in seeing it with everyone talking
>about how 'obvious' a hoax it was.

It's a horror movie.  The style was designed to make it as realistic as
possible, but I don't know anyone who considered it to be a real event.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:16:15 EDT
From: Clifford N Linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of the Ancients -reply

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:46:02 From: "Douglas E. Berry"
<dberry@hooked.net>
>At 05:52 AM 7/16/99 PDT, you wrote:
>>  Which makes me want to set the homeworld 
>>in previously unknown space (eg Trojan Reaches).  But, where else but
the 
>>Marches are there so many Ancient sites.  
>
>Marc has stated that the Ancient home world was in Regina Subsector, but
>was moved.  IMTU, Andor/Candory served as administration worlds for
>Grandfather.
>- -- 
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry


Correct me if I am wrong, but this was in my data files. I beleve I found
it on the Vag web site.

Spinward Marches: Regina Subsector (Subsector C):
Shionthy (UNKNOWN): "Shionthy Belt is where Grandfather tilted the Droyne
homeworld into a pocket universe after the Ancient War. It's still
there." Source: Marc Miller in a post on the TML. (The Droyne homeworld
is called Eskaylot, or lost home, by the Droyne themselves, even they
dont know about its whereabouts. The only living being who knows where
it is, is Grandfather himself.)


Clifford Linehan
CNL.Rubicon@Juno.com
One man's magic is another man's engineering.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:14:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients 

> The explanations for Grandfather, IIRC, were given in an OOC mode, 
> setting the norm for the OTU <ducking>. That is, yo ucan say they 
> were given from game creators to referees, nothing In-Character.

Yup.
  
> > There's a bunch of variant history being written in my PBEM, but I won't go 
> > into it here.  Too many of my players read the TML.
> > Keven
> 
> I can say exactly the same.... guess we both will eventually have a 
> chance to discover each other's variant, eh, Keven?

Heheh.  Possible...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:10:47 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update...

I began working in 3D with trueSpace2.  Kinda' funky interface, but then
what 3D program DOESN'T have a funky interface :)  It's kinda' a pain for
acutally animating stuff, as it has some rather annoying tendacies in
several department.  I was really glad when I could move on to Lightwave.
Anyway, if you're interested in 3D and can find trueSpace2 for the price of
a magazine, I can definately recommend it.

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michael
> Peters
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 3:42 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: TML 3d club-Site update...
>
>
> One other point for those contemplating "joining the club". I've seen a
> number of magazines giving away copies of Truespace 2. I have a copy
> from one of the magazines and it seems a reasonable program, even though
> the interface is a bit screwy. You'll need to grab a book to learn what
> some of the icons mean.
>
> I played with this for a while and found it reasonable powerful. I'd
> probable still use it except that RDS5 was much closer to CorelDream (
> they were made by the same company) and I was more familiar with the
> interface. Of, course I'm still a novice so filter these comments with
> that fact.
>
> Chris Seamans wrote:
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jesse DeGraff <fenris@slip.net>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> > Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:25 PM
> > Subject: RE: TML 3d club-Site update...
> >
> > >range) then you can still do decent work with it.  It's
> harder, AFAIK, to
> > >make the textures appear more real.  The exception was the
> recent cutter
> > >module by Chris.  That had the more detailed texturing that
> I've ever seen
> > >from PovRay.  If you start playing with it, you may want to
> talk to Chris
> >
> > The real problem is with Moray, the modelling program with the
> most features
> > for POV-Ray. It's quite difficult to make funky shapes with it.
> You can make
> > something like a lab ship, a modular cutter or a merc cruiser, but it's
> > harder to churn out stuff with more interesting or organic shapes.
> >
> > Yes, if anyone starts working with Moray and POV-Ray, just drop
> me an email
> > and I'll be glad to send along any help I can with doing decent textures
> > with it.
>
> --
> Mike Peters
> travelleri@home.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:15:19 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> It's a horror movie.  The style was designed to make it as realistic as
> possible, but I don't know anyone who considered it to be a real event.

Non-TMLers aren't all that bright.  I have several friends who
think its a documentary.  I enjoy letting them continue to think so.

And the different levels of the hoax are great.  These people
think they have heard "the real deal", when they're just at the
first layer of the onion.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:28:34 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)

I play TNE but have also played both CT and MT. Gurps Traveller is not doing
well here. No one seems to play this though other Gurps games are run
regularly. I suspect its because the edition sent here is non-metric. We
have been a metric country for some time and most of the gear heads I know
here do not like measuring things in cubic inches, feet, or yards.
Some of the GT books may be useful as resources.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:28:31 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Thermal Shock on Lasers

Given the high energies used by laser focussin arrays does anyone know
whether a standard ship laser could be safely fired under water?
Would the laser flash boil the water in the beam?
How about the effect of the water on the focussing array?
Any thoughts?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:28:40 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Tech question

Note that the CT Express Boats did not have a maneuver drive, therefore the
tender had to dock with them. Makes things interesting if there is already
an XBoat or Scout parked in the docking bay. Those tenders must have had
very good pilots and computers. Or the express boats had nifty little dents.

As an aside can crystal iron actually be dented, or would the plate shatter
under the impact? Of can crystal iron deform so some extent.

Suggestions would be helpful, one of my PCs accidently banged to crystal
iron hulled vessels together, shearing of the passive array in the process.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:28:36 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)

Where do I get a copy of the T5 rules. Most Traveller publications take so
long to get here that the company has shut down before they arrive.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:28:38 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Two Questions

Yes but it hurts more aka Robin Hood Prince of Thieves

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:28:28 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: tech question

Also in WW2 submarines of the German Navy were typically docked in great
concrete pens to help protect them from allied bombing. There is also an
example in the first Indiana Jones film.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 05:11:20 -0700
From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Nightrim Data log 1.9

Good morning all.

Just thought I'd let you know that Nightrim Data Log, 1.9 got posted to
my site this AM.

For those of you who don't know these data logs are transcripts of a
PBICQ (PBEM) game that I run live on occasional saturday or sunday
nights.

This weeks log should be titled, "McKeon looses ten pounds when
Goghueghz chews him out."

So come on over and check them out.  Be prepared to sit down and devote
some time and don't forget to drop me a line and tell me what you think.

Derek Stanley
http://persweb.direct.ca/dstanley/Home.html

Say G'nite Hoss.
- -Ashtabula-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 07:49:51 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Starports

Speaking of starports...

Anybody have the old Judges Guild book?

Seemed tp have misslaid mine.

Evyn.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 07:50:00 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

>Speaking of starports...
>
>Anybody have the old Judges Guild book?
>
>Seemed tp have misslaid mine.


    I seem to have a copy of it.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 99 11:21:34 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Isn't this Strange?

Check this out...

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/07/18/stinwenws02029.html?999

...I think you will all get a "big bang" out of it.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:12:45 -0500
From: "Clint Williams" <aremis@amaonline.com>
Subject: Re: tech question

- -----Original Message-----
From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, July 18, 1999 5:30 AM
Subject: RE: tech question


>Also in WW2 submarines of the German Navy were typically docked in great
>concrete pens to help protect them from allied bombing. There is also an
>example in the first Indiana Jones film.
>

As ships go WW2 German submarines are rather small.  Anybodies WW2 subs were
fairly small.  This makes it a different proposition than say putting the
Graf Spee of that era in a 'bunker', let alone something like the Bismark or
the Yamato (or is that Yamamoto, always confuse the ship & the admiral of
that war).

I think the lattice work station from ST:TNG or the odd clamp, McKinley
Station I believe, that repaired the Enterprise-D after the 1st Borg
incursion are far more realistic than the spacedock.  Even on DS9 the ships
docked rather than came inside.  Of course DS9 is much smaller than the
spacedock.
~Clint

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:37:24 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Isn't this Strange?

Ok, that'd really blow.  Sometimes scientists really worry me (no offense
meant to any on the list :)

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 9:22 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Isn't this Strange?
>
>
> Check this out...
>
> http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/07/18/stinwenws020
> 29.html?999
>
> ...I think you will all get a "big bang" out of it.
>
> Eris
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:39:02 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: Isn't this Strange?

At 12:37 PM 18/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Ok, that'd really blow.  Sometimes scientists really worry me (no offense
>meant to any on the list :)
>
>Jesse
>

        At the risk of being a cold bucket of water, this seems to be the
exact sort of experiment I'd want to do on the moon.  =)  I wonder if they
can be convinced to move it.

        Of course, when they did the first H-Bomb test, there was a theory
that said it would cause a chain reaction that would spread to all hydrogen
molecules in the atmosphere, incinerating the Earth....

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:22:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani & Zhodani mud-slinging

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> writes:

>ROFLMAO!
>Where's LeRoy now?

That aberrant carbon-unit has been re-assimilated following his inadvertant
disclosure of the RoM's TL. FWIW, we lost the Rim War, sorry War of
Patriotic Defense, deliberate to make the Imperium think that it wasn't
dealing with a TL21 superstate.


shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:

>>Mister wavy tentacles, we're closer to you than the Vargr. Fancy a Grand
>>Fleet Exercise?
>  And where did you want their software to send your ships this week? :>

Capital/Sylea would be nice. Especially if you can get the whole Grand
Fleet there at the same time....

:-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:26:22 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

SciFiFan56@aol.com writes

>Title: Gateway to the Stars, by Pierce Askegren. ISBN 0-671-01188-X
>Price $5.99 Publisher- Pocket Books.

Thanks,

Bloo adds:
>But, seriously, don't waste your time.  Its not even a good doorstop

How come? Anyone put a review on Freelance Traveller yet?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:39:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Starports

Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> wrote:
>Next project on the way for GURPS Traveller is Starports. Steve thinks it
>would be cool beyond measure if we could have a sample starport map for
>each class and not just a generic Class I-V, but a diagram of Flammarion
>Downport (Class V) and so on.
>
>I don't remember any actual canon starport layouts (I don't rmember if I
>did one for Champa Starport when I wrote the JTAS article, and I don't have
>access to my references right now.
>
>Are there canon layouts for any specific starports? If not, I need
>volunteers to design them. They need to be based on reality as much as
>possible, which means they have to be laid out in a rational fashion, and
>should be based as closely as possible on real-world airports (putting
>aside for the moment whether they should be based on seaports or neither
>one).

Possibly the best designs for a downport were in an old White Dwarf article
by Thomas Price. If not used directly they would be good to use as
inspiration.

As to Highports, I can't remember any designs, but I always based mine off
the stations described in CJ Cherryh's books. Downbelow Station has a
diagram of Pell, and the descriptions in the Chanur books are also quite
good.

Knightfall may have had a design for the downport which comes under meson fire.

I can probably get hold of these and scan them if needed. It just needs
some exploration through the old WDs.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:22:39 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project

According to the storyline law enforcement had the video in their custody for 
over a year before turning it over to the parents of the missing film makers. 
 So that's plenty of time to go over it frame by frame.

T

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:25:32 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)

In a message dated 99-07-17 21:50:23 EDT, you write:

<< possible, but I don't know anyone who considered it to be a real event.
 --  >>

I do Doug, but they're the same types who would have fallen for the old "war 
of the worlds" bit....

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:47:33 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

SD Mooney wrote:

> Bloo adds:
> >But, seriously, don't waste your time.  Its not even a good doorstop
>
> How come? Anyone put a review on Freelance Traveller yet?
>
> Dom

Believe me when I tell you, its not worth a review.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 99 15:59:51 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: RE: Isn't this Strange?

On 07/18/99 at 04:39 PM,  Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:

>At 12:37 PM 18/07/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>Ok, that'd really blow.  Sometimes scientists really worry me (no offense
>>meant to any on the list :)

Yeah, it would, wouldn't it. ;->

>        At the risk of being a cold bucket of water, this seems to be
>the exact sort of experiment I'd want to do on the moon.  =)  I
>wonder if they can be convinced to move it.

Hey!  That's an *excellent* reason to put a base on the moon.  We
seem to need some sort of push to get those with the money in their
pockets to finance more space enterprises.  Maybe threatening to
make them all "strange" is just the trick. ;->

>        Of course, when they did the first H-Bomb test, there was a
>theory that said it would cause a chain reaction that would spread to
>all hydrogen molecules in the atmosphere, incinerating the Earth....

I thought of that when I read this too.

Of course, the probabilities of things going that wrong are probably
a billion times smaller than those of an asteroid making a direct
hit...on that lab...tomorrow...at 11:30.

Eris,
    who thinks it's all part of the "end of the world millennium
    madness" that is bound to get worse and worse until 1/1/2001
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #873
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 19 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 874



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[Digest Version] Traveller-digest V1999 #869
re: T4 Novel
Re: Equatorial Settlement
Re: Starports
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)
RE: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)
Re: Starports
Re: T4 Novel
Re: Equatorial Settlement
Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)
Re: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2
Re: Starports
Re: Two Questions
Classic and/or T4 deck plan jpgs and bmp files requested
Re: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2
Re : Isn't this strange?
Re: Software proposal (longish?) 
Re: Starports
RE: T4 Novel
RE: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2
RE: Two Questions
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Isn't this Strange?
re: starports
Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers
good gearhead link

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:58:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [Digest Version] Traveller-digest V1999 #869

Anyone seen - Traveller-digest V1999 #869?

It hasn't arrived here yet and I've had the subsequent 3!

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:00:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: T4 Novel

John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> writes:

>>Does anyone have the ISBN (or Author/Title) of the Traveller Novel for
>>>T4 published last year to hand?
>Look in the April 1998 BITS newsletter for a summary.

Ouch. I suppose I should have looked there first.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:21:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Equatorial Settlement

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>> Equatorial launch sites are the lowest energy, hence highest payload,
>> sites to launch to geosynchronous orbits and equatorial orbits. You have
>> the highest rotational velocity to add to the launch speed, and every
>> erg counts when there's a 3 billon dollar comms satellite yoiu're
>> putting up.

Didn't Israel put up a satellite launching West not East? Or against the
rotation so they had a rotational velocity disadvantage to overcome?

>And as Clarke pointed out long ago, New Guinea is both on the Equator
>*and* has high mountains.
>
>The three "best" potential launch sites are:
>
>1. New Guinea
>2. Ecuador
>3. Kenya (Mt. Kilimajaro).

Isn't Kenya the site for the Earth Tower in 2300? Or was it a catapult?


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:59:34 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starports

Loren asks for starports...

 Champa Downport - JTAS 7
 Peerden Starport (Class-D on Engorr) - Knightfall
 Desmas Starport (Class-A on Khishan) - Knightfall
 general Hi-pop Starport (Class-A) - Knightfall
 Wal-ta-Kah Downport (Class-C) - Traveller's Digest #2
 Limii Highport (Class-A at Limii) - Flaming Eye
 Vhodan Down Starport (Class-A on Vhodan) - Flaming Eye
 Leedor Downport (Class-A on Aramis) - Traveller Adventure
 Berensburg Starport (Class-E on Berens) - The Guilded Lilly
 Shudusham Port (E-Class) - Traveller's Digest 8
 Alz Atse' Starport (B-Class on Alzenei) - The Trail of the Sky Raiders

  A number of these are shown only in barebones style. A fair number of these 
are also tied up by the DGP problem, but I don't know if that affects the 
Knightfall material (which was actually published by GDW).
 I consider the White Dwarf article to be only part of the solution, 
personally, as it assumes a high percentage of reaction-drive ships and 
gliding landers. Added to a broader picture, where the "Star Wars VTOL" model 
is common, it becomes more useful.
 Another White Dwarf bit, the scenario "Shuttle Scuffle," did also have some 
port layout IIRC. I'll have to look...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:03:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:

>And the different levels of the hoax are great.  These people
>think they have heard "the real deal", when they're just at the
>first layer of the onion.

Perhaps we should precede the posts with FNORD, not OT?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:05:51 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller Flavours Re: Software proposal (longish?)

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:

>Where do I get a copy of the T5 rules. Most Traveller publications take so
>long to get here that the company has shut down before they arrive.

Email Marc Miller at FarFuture@aol.com and ask nicely and he'll probably
send you a Zipped set of Word 95 files which are the playtest draft. It's
easier to understand (and use) if you have a copy of the T4 book.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:07:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>Speaking of starports...
>Anybody have the old Judges Guild book?
>Seemed tp have misslaid mine.

They're back in business IIRC (Legate may say more if he's still here).
ISTR that there is a link from the SJG website Traveller pages.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:10:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Novel

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes (on the T4 novel):

>Believe me when I tell you, its not worth a review.

Worse than Starships for T4? Which doubles as a nice mouse mat, but not as
nice as the BITS 'Cuddle a cute Alien today' one.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:23:07 -0500
From: "Clint Williams" <aremis@amaonline.com>
Subject: Re: Equatorial Settlement

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, July 18, 1999 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: Equatorial Settlement

>Isn't Kenya the site for the Earth Tower in 2300? Or was it a catapult?
>
>
>Dom


The beanstalk is not in Kenya but close by in Gabon, due east of Kenya on
the Atlantic coast.
~Clint

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:09:41 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: (OT) The Blair Witch Project SPOILER! Dammit! :-)

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
> 
> >And the different levels of the hoax are great.  These people
> >think they have heard "the real deal", when they're just at the
> >first layer of the onion.
> 
> Perhaps we should precede the posts with FNORD, not OT?

For those who are interested, there's a special on the Blair Witch
Project tonight on the Sci-Fi Channel (8 PM Eastern DST, 7 PM Central).

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:21:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2

On 07/16/99 16:54:06 you wrote:
>
>As I was contemplating the problems with standard missiles in large-ship
>combat (point defense can knock them down too easily), I thought about
>the very first anti-ship long-range cruise missiles.  These weapons,
>first deployed in October 1944, had impressive range, and carried the
>most sophisticated autonomous seeker head and guidance system _ever_
>mounted on an anti-ship weapon.  I refer, of course, to the Kamikaze.
>
>I then looked at the AuricTech equivalent to the Rampart fighter.  I
>realized that a 36m^3 laser mount could hold an _awfully_ large
>det-laser warhead.  Alas, the largest det-laser warhead in FF&S2
>requires only 1.4% (.49 m^3) of this space, and there are no rules for
>constructing larger warheads.
>
>Any suggestions concerning upscaling det-laser warheads?  (I realize
>that suicide attacks are rather barbaric, but I expect that there would
>be some cultures out there that would attempt such a thing.  Besides,
>just because I use a fighter as a prototype airframe for such a missile
>doens't necessarily mean that I would advocate using manned anti-ship
>missiles.)

I got in touch with Dave Nilsen (FF&S1 co-author) a couple of years ago 
and we re-constructed the original design sequence as follows: 

The DV and Pen are calculated as a standard laser.  All you need to do is 
convert Yield into Discharge Energy.  

This was very difficult until I figured out that there was an "error" in 
the original table that was throwing things off.  Dave then vaguely 
recalled they used a standard log table to approximate a DE=X*Yield^.5 
function but Frank Chadwick dropped the "15" in the DE column for some 
reason.  This makes the stats in FF&S1 and FF&S2 not conform to any 
continous function.  If you reinsert the missing values, the following 
relationship holds perfectly.

DE = 31.7*(Yield)^.5

Yield		DV	Rounded	MyDV		FF&S1DV
10		100	100		25		25		
20		141	150		30.6		**
50		224	200		35.4		35
100		317	300		43.3		43
200		448	450		53.0		56
500		708	700		66.1		66
1000		1002	1000		79.1		79

Note that these stats are in FF&S1 DV units, so you'll have to convert 
for FF&S2.

As for volume, Dave wasn't as helpful there and we'll have to come up 
with an approximation on our own.  I found that a linear regression of DE 
on LN(Volume+1) fits pretty well and makes powerful det-laser warheads 
suitably large.

If people are interested I can post my volume solution and a table of 
pre-made warheads.

- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:18:07 +0000
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: Starports

I have a Judges Guild book titled "Fifty Starbases."  I also have a
starport design I used during one campaign. It goes from the "old
terminal" which has very few features (Class C?) to the new terminal
which is similar to SeTac airport.  A passenger/checkin front building,
with trams to the various gates, etc...

Brad Houston
tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da  

On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 07:49:51 -0700 Evyn MacDude
<wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Speaking of starports...
>
>Anybody have the old Judges Guild book?
>
>Seemed tp have misslaid mine.
>
>Evyn.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:29:05 +0000
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: Two Questions

>> <snip>
>>
>> Second question, given a urban battle field setting what measures 
>could a
>> numerically superior but technologically inferior but prepared force 
>use to
>> stop a squad in battle dress.  I can see the use of command 
>detonated mines
>> to drop buildings on them.  How about high pressure hoses of salt 
>water
>> with electric currents run through them to knock them down and 
>possibly
>> short their circuitry?  What about figuring a way to drop them into 
>a hole
>> and then filling the hole with cement?  How about spraying them with 
>some
>> kind of quick setting super epoxy that would render them immobile?  
>Those
>> are the only ideas I have and and I admit some are a bit off the 
>wall.
>> Anyone have any other thoughts?       

How about a high-velocity/high rate of fire weapon.  It may not penetrate
the suit, but smash up any sensors/the visor/the weapon.  It may also
cause "spall" damage inside the suit. 

Brad Houston
tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:13:48 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Classic and/or T4 deck plan jpgs and bmp files requested

If you have access to a scanner or have on file jpgs or bmp files of the deck 
plans of the ships featured in Traveller traveller please give me a yell. 
Please no home made plans, I would like copies of the published ones only. 
Thank you. 

Also if anyone has a copy of the imfamous T5 rules they could send me that 
too would be appreciated. :) 

Thanks. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:01:49 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2

jmaclean@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> 
<<snips discussion of large det-laser missiles (manned or unmanned)>>
> 
> I got in touch with Dave Nilsen (FF&S1 co-author) a couple of years ago
> and we re-constructed the original design sequence as follows:
> 
> The DV and Pen are calculated as a standard laser.  All you need to do is
> convert Yield into Discharge Energy.
> 
> This was very difficult until I figured out that there was an "error" in
> the original table that was throwing things off.  Dave then vaguely
> recalled they used a standard log table to approximate a DE=X*Yield^.5
> function but Frank Chadwick dropped the "15" in the DE column for some
> reason.  This makes the stats in FF&S1 and FF&S2 not conform to any
> continous function.  If you reinsert the missing values, the following
> relationship holds perfectly.
> 
> DE = 31.7*(Yield)^.5

Is DE in the above equation the energy in MegaJoules produced by a
nuclear warhead of a given yield, and transferred (with energy losses,
of course) to a det-pumped laser?  If so, I should be able to adjust to
FF&S2 penetration and damage values.  If DE refers to some other
relationship between nuke yield and det-laser damage, please post the
correct relationship between nuke yield, penetration, and damage.

Concerning volume and mass of large det-laser warheads:  I suppose that
one could, in the absence of hard [i.e., classified] data, simply graph
the curve of values presented in FF&S2, and extrapolate from there.  Any
objections among the FF&S/FF&S2 gearhead caucus about such
extrapolation?
> 
> Yield           DV      Rounded MyDV            FF&S1DV
> 10              100     100             25              25
> 20              141     150             30.6            **
> 50              224     200             35.4            35
> 100             317     300             43.3            43
> 200             448     450             53.0            56
> 500             708     700             66.1            66
> 1000            1002    1000            79.1            79
> Note that these stats are in FF&S1 DV units, so you'll have to convert
> for FF&S2.
> 
> As for volume, Dave wasn't as helpful there and we'll have to come up
> with an approximation on our own.  I found that a linear regression of DE
> on LN(Volume+1) fits pretty well and makes powerful det-laser warheads
> suitably large.
> 
> If people are interested I can post my volume solution and a table of
> pre-made warheads.

Please do (I'd like to see whether my back-of-the-envelope conversions
match your calculations).

Thank you for your attention to this matter....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:55:48 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Isn't this strange?

On the subject of chain reactions :- the possibility that the atmosphere
would catch alight was considered at the time of the Manhattan project
(the possibility of a nitrogen or oxygen fusion runaway was present).
	The other concern was that the A-bomb might cause a super-earthquake or
super-volcano if the crust of the earth was breached. 

The Sunday Times article is very interesting.

<rant>
What is going on? Is this a slow news week, or something?
Or has everyone become technophobic/technoneurotic to the point of
absurdity? 
	Sounds like some fool (?Congress or House o'Reps) has asked a fairly
stupid question, and now American physicists have to pour some of their
hard-earned research funding down a plughole establishing the safety of
the accelerator....
</rant>

A small black hole would probably evaporate in a hiss of X-rays before
it got anywhere or did something of interest.

Strange matter is *theoretically* nasty stuff, as described.

Of interest would be what happened if it didn't appear at the predicted
energies. The existing models would have to be bent a bit.

Ob Trav : an answer for the Fermi paradox? <g>, or the accelerator
necessary to demonstrate the 'loophole' that makes gravitics possible...


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 02:13:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Software proposal (longish?) 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Java was a great idea.  Its implementation was less than stellar.  And when 
> > MicroShaft tried to Windowsize it, Java went to hell.
> >  
> >> As for browsers and java, it seems to work a little better but is still
> >> slow to load.
> >
> > If you don't use IE, Java has a tendancy to not work so well.  Could be 
> > cause a lot of sites use the M$ version of Java rather than the Sun version.
> 
> Which is why Sun *sued* MS for violating the Java standard. Last I
> heard was that they'd won. MS has only two options (not counting
> appeals). 
> 
> 1. adhere to the standard
> 2. Call their "non-Java" something else. 
> 
> It should be *real* interesting to see which way they jump.

It'll be a no-brainer.  They'll call their 'Java' something else.  M$ doesn't like adhering to 'standards', even when *THEY* make the standards.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:24:50 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Starports

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
 
> Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> wrote:
> >Next project on the way for GURPS Traveller is Starports. Steve thinks it
SNIP
> As to Highports, I can't remember any designs, but I always based mine off
SNIP 
> Knightfall may have had a design for the downport which comes under meson fire.

Wasn't there a Highport in The Flaming Eye?
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:07:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: T4 Novel

And as for T4 starships how come the type T Patrol Cruiser keeps having its
displacement halved?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:07:19 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Det-Laser Warheads in FF&S2

I would certainly be interested in the warheads, having just annihalated a
Sirius Cartel heavy cruiser squadron using a light cruiser squadron of her
majesties Star Kingdom of Swan - it fired approximately 2,400 nuclear
detonation missiles at fourteen ships. Using the largest warheads in FFS1.
Though currently we are a little short of launch vehicles!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:07:21 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Two Questions

If scorched Earth is OK a high radiation yield weapon (neutron bomb) would
certainly overload the electronics on a suit, except in the blast area of
course, where there would be no further problem with BD troops, till more
arrived at any rate.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:20:02 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

Thing writes:

<<snipped>

>>>>

<excerpt>I often envision jumpspace as a hyperspace topology that you can
lie the

normal 3 dimensional (3+?) on the surface of so that every point in the

universe corresponds with a point on the surface of jumpspace in much
the

same way as you can wrap a two dimensional surface around a sphere. 
With

this view a jump breaks the surface tension between universes/spaces 
and

projects you on a vector through jumpspace.  Your ship then follows its

course until it reached the exit-point back into the normal universe. 
Tides

within jumpspace create small variances in travel time but the basic
trip

takes about a week.  Stronger jump drives let you cut a deeper curve
though

jumpspace and thereby exit you a further distance from your entry 
point.

Jump drives use a preset that corresponds to a known-safe angle of
incidence

with jumpspace and when this is changed it results in a mis-jump.  The

trajectory and relative velocity through jumpspace is different and
causes a

different passage length in both time and distance.  Typically a jump
drive

consumes all of its fuel in opening the tear into jumpspace and
initiating

the ship on its trajectory.  The drive then shuts down and the ship

essentially coasts through jumpspace until it reaches the other end point
of

its trajectory and breaks the surface tension back into our universe.  

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

<<snipped>


This is exactly how I see jump-space. It is consistent with my reading of
the (original) Traveller rules, it is simple (for me, and for my
purposes) to understand, and it doesn't raise too many unanswerable
questions (that I have thought of). Of course, I don't use drop-tanks,
but let's not go there.


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:11:42 -0400
From: j a c <journeyman2000@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Isn't this Strange?

Tis a very strange matter (pun intended).  No insult intended to anyone,
but I do worry about these particle physicists sometimes.

Jim "Dammit,  I'm an engineer, not a physicist!" Clem


On Sun, 18 Jul 99 11:21:34 -0500 "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
writes:
>Check this out...
>
>http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/07/18/stinwenws02029.htm
l?999
>
>...I think you will all get a "big bang" out of it.
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:44:21 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: starports

>Possibly the best designs for a downport were in an old White Dwarf article
>by Thomas Price. If not used directly they would be good to use as
>inspiration.

It is on the HIWG CD in PDF format. Path WHITDWAR/HAPPYLAN.PDF

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers

Antony Farrell writes:
> Given the high energies used by laser focussin arrays does anyone know
> whether a standard ship laser could be safely fired under water?

Realistically?  They can't even fire in air, they'll heat up the air enough
that it will absorb and scatter the beam.  Range in water would be measurable
in meters.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:58:27 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: good gearhead link

http://www.geversaircraft.com/

A triphiban aircraft (land/water/snow) aircraft with telescoping wings for 
STOL capability.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #874
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 19 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 875



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: good gearhead link
more battledress
Re: Equatorial Settlement
Re: Tech question
Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers
Re: Starports
Re: Starports
Re: Speaking of Ancients
RE: Speaking of Ancients
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Digest 869
Re: Starports
RE: T4 Novel
RE: Speaking of Ancients
re: [Digest Version] Traveller-digest V1999 #869
re: starports
Re: Starports
"Immortality Juice" (Was: Re: Speaking of Ancients)
Re: Digest 869
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
RE: On the nature of Jump Space.
Re: Two Questions
Re: Enclosed Bays

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:08:47 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: good gearhead link

At 12:58 PM 7/19/99 -0400, you wrote:
>http://www.geversaircraft.com/
>
>A triphiban aircraft (land/water/snow) aircraft with telescoping wings for 
>STOL capability.

I remember Ted Nomura's old "Tigers of Terra" had a fighter that has
telescoping wings.  That series is a gearhead's delight!

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:19:00 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: more battledress

Brad Houston types around the fnords:
 >How about a high-velocity/high rate of fire weapon.  It may not penetrate
 >the suit, but smash up any sensors/the visor/the weapon.  It may also
 >cause "spall" damage inside the suit.

     E.E. "Doc" Smith covered this in his classic Lensmen Space Opera Series.
Heavy machine gun fire couldn't penatrate the SpaceArmor, but it could 
knock the wearer over and keep 'em down.
The Hero practiced standing under heavy machine gun fire.

     In my early combat armor design rants, I suggested armoring the backs 
of gauntlets.  Not only did this increase punching damage, but holding your 
hands over your face protects the visor.

    The idea of taking out Battledress sensors and communications quickly 
is a good one.  It removes the most dangerous weapon system mounted on 
Battledress, the Ortillery Forward Observer option.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
       Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:59:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Equatorial Settlement

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
>>> Equatorial launch sites are the lowest energy, hence highest payload,
>>> sites to launch to geosynchronous orbits and equatorial orbits. You have
>>> the highest rotational velocity to add to the launch speed, and every
>>> erg counts when there's a 3 billon dollar comms satellite yoiu're
>>> putting up.
>
> Didn't Israel put up a satellite launching West not East? Or against the
> rotation so they had a rotational velocity disadvantage to overcome?

Probably. And like most "first satellite" launches, there's a hidden
subtext. Namely "We can launch nuclear ICBMs". That's why the US got so
worried when the USSR launched Sputnik. Any rocket capable of that
launch was capable of dropping a nuke anywhere in the world. 

So doing it the "wrong way" just makes Israel look *better*. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:02:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech question

In mail you write:

> Note that the CT Express Boats did not have a maneuver drive, therefore the
> tender had to dock with them. Makes things interesting if there is already
> an XBoat or Scout parked in the docking bay. Those tenders must have had
> very good pilots and computers. Or the express boats had nifty little dents.
>
> As an aside can crystal iron actually be dented, or would the plate shatter
> under the impact? Of can crystal iron deform so some extent.

It *can't* "shatter" easily, or else it wouldn't be useful as a hull
material, no matter *how* strong it is. Still, materials like this
should be considered more like fiberglass than metal. That means that
they don't "break" easily, but they have a tendency to "delaminate",
that is, the layers of matrix material and "fiber" (iron crystals?)
tend to seperate suddenly. 

This means that you *can* punch holes in the hull, and the surrounding
areas will be weaker due to partial delamination around the hole. But
things that just "stress" the hull are a different matter. It's
possible for the hull to look okay, and then one day it gets stressed
in a way it has handled many times before. Only *this* time the hulls
delaminates "totally". It just sort of "falls apart".

> Suggestions would be helpful, one of my PCs accidently banged to crystal
> iron hulled vessels together, shearing of the passive array in the process.

It's *probably* ok. Just be sure to let them know about the fun failure
mode I mention above. Some day they could bump something just wrong and
trigger a release of all the accumulated stresses. And watch as the
entire hull drifts away in pieces. 

That's the *fun* part of new, high-strength materials like fiberglass,
carbon fiber composites (and probably the fancy crystal iron and
superdense). New materials mean new failure modes. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:11:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers

In mail you write:

> Given the high energies used by laser focussin arrays does anyone know
> whether a standard ship laser could be safely fired under water?

Nope.

> Would the laser flash boil the water in the beam?

The water would absorb anywhere from 50% to 99+% of the beam energy in
the first *meter*. Given that the beam energy is megajoules or even
gigajoules "boil" is a *completely* inadequate description. The water
will *explosively* convert into high energy plasma. And the shock wave
will have "severe adverse effects" on the laser *and* the ship.

> How about the effect of the water on the focussing array?

No idea, probably not even *usable* underwater.

Remember, at *weapons* laser energies, the target does not "melt" or
"boil". You are dumping in too much energy, way too fast. The surface
layers of solid objects explode. And I described the result on liquids
above.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:33:58 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Starports

>Wasn't there a Highport in The Flaming Eye?
>Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Yes, the pic is on page 20, the description on page 19, first row (Chapter 4).
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:20:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Starports

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote:

> Wasn't there a Highport in The Flaming Eye?

Limii Orbital.  There's also a description of a real bare-bones 
class-E on a backwater world in _Safari Ship_ (CT); that was a
outcropping of exposed bedrock equipped with a transponder beacon
and a log recorder (so ships could record that they were there).

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:39:21 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> III.  THe Ancient Civilization.
> Outlines how Grandfather and his children occupy Chartered Space along
with
> the other inhabitants.  [This is where I need help.  I visualize that the
> Ancients are not alone.  There are other Great Old Ones which are far more
> sophisicated than the Ancients along with countless minor other
spacefaring
> races such as Gn'nak whose civilizations have down through a downfall
since
> the time of the Ancients.  I am also looking for something that would
really
> scare the Ancients.  A conspiracy?  Yes, one which causes the Ancients to
> strive for higher and higher levels of technical know-how.  The Ancients
> reflecting their Droyne heritage stumbled upon this evil and don't know
how
> to contain it.  Some have formed alliances with it, others ignore it
hoping
> it will go away and others like Grandfather worry.]

Something worry Grandfather?  <shudder>  If virus didn't worry him, what
did?  Perhaps the Empress Wave was aimed at him?  Age old enemy getting
even?  Hmm.  Makes you wonder.

If we assume that history tends to repeat itself, then maybe we have a mice
and elephants scenario.  Perhaps Grandfather made the other anchient dudes
to help balance the powers, or to turn back a threat.  Then they turned out
to be as big or bigger trouble as what they were created to get rid of.
Rather like the Indian king who had mice, brought in cats, had cat trouble,
brought in dogs, had dog trouble, brought in lions, had lion trouble and
brought in elephants, then he REALLY had troubles! So, he brought in mice to
scare off the elephants.  There may have been a few other steps that I
missed, it was a long story.

And I still don't like the pocket universe explainations that I have heard
so far.  If this dude is so smart, why would he have to wait for a future
event?  He could just _go_ to that point in time, or skip along until he
finds the right spot.  No, he is either hiding from something or cooking up
a scheme...  or he's wandered off somewhere else and the whole pocket
universe deal is a ruse that the plant told to throw us off of the scent in
"Secrets of the Ancients".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:10:04 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients

On Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:44 AM
Douglas E. Berry said,

> In my Illuminated Traveller setting, Grandfather is waiting for one race
or
> the other to show that they will be suitable assistants/workers.  He's
> partial to the Droyne (natch!), so he keeps giving them little boosts,
like
> the Coyn ceremony for casting, but they have been a major disappointment.

The only problem that I have with this is that a competitive universe tends
to favor competitive/aggressive folk and they don't make the best docile
workers.  A little too ambitious to be content with just taking orders.  I
could see that he might want an advanced race that has developed a different
mid set.  Maybe there is something inherent to his thinking pattern from
leaping to super-intelligence in a very short time.  Maybe people that
struggle for millennia to raise to that level would see his blind spots.
That or being immortal has made him be too reluctant to take risks.  Having
so much life and being afraid of loosing it?  Maybe he wants an ephemeral
high intelligence that won't be as scared to push the history eraser button
just to see what it would do?


> His pocket universe does have a different flow of time, and Grandfather
> spends most of his time in a semi-comatose state, stirring every few
> centuries to examine the state of the universe, and perhaps meddling a
little.
I would think you would want to swing the time flow the other way, unless
boredom is a problem.  Since Grandfather is theoretically immortal age
wouldn't be a problem and you could always do time lapse recording and
review of the outside universe to keep up on current events in a manageable
way (Just check the tape every few millennia, local time).  If a thousand
years passed in the pocket universe for one in ours you could buy allot more
time to study a problem that existed in our time frame, plus it would give
you a good research advantage in case a race made a technological leap and
achieved tech that could threaten you outside of the normal progression.
See a race that has dangerous tech, do a few hundred years research to build
up defense and offense and appear a week later.


Thinking of Grandfather's immortality brought to mind a question.  Where do
anagathics come from?  Some Imperial research program?  Ancient technology?
Or is Grandfather leaking some immortality juice (In a weekend form) into
the Imperium to adjust some variables.

G.D.D.
========
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."  - Napoleon Bonaparte

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:34:59 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

On Monday, July 19, 1999 8:20 AM
Ian Ferguson said,

> This is exactly how I see jump-space. It is consistent with my reading of
the (original)
> Traveller rules, it is simple (for me, and for my purposes) to understand,
and it doesn't
> raise too many unanswerable questions (that I have thought of). Of course,
I don't use
> drop-tanks, but let's not go there.

The only problem I have is the chance of collision.  Of course ships
disappear all the time ;).  If you had sensors that worked in jump space you
could see a collision coming, but without thrusters that worked in jump
space you would not be able to avoid it so no word of the collisions would
ever get through unless someone else was passing in observation range.  Of
course, if you had thrusters that worked in jump space you would probably
never get back on the exact same flight path after the coarse correction and
end up coming out hell knows where.

There is reference in the Psionic Institute book (T4) to a theory that all
psionics are the result or an ancient machine that exists in jumpspace
pointing to the fact that jumpspace has a continuos existence outside of
operating a jump field.

Also in the T4 book p.109, I believe, there is a drawing in which the
caption mentions that within the portal's depths is seen the shifting
pattern of jump space.  This leads me to ask what does jump space look like?
Shifting patterns of what kind/  Multicolored?  Glowing blue clouds? Red
(ala B5)?  Arching energy discharges?  What would a character see if they
looked out a window or went EVA during jump?

G.D.D.
Thing under the stairs,
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.
==================================
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."  - Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:41:09 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Digest 869

It showed up on time in the archives, but I never actually received it by 
eMail...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:48:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
>Subject:

>> As to Highports, I can't remember any designs, but I always based mine off
>SNIP
>> Knightfall may have had a design for the downport which comes under
>>meson fire.
>
>Wasn't there a Highport in The Flaming Eye?

Yep, same as the one called Gateway station in the K'Kree MTJ4. But it's a
DGP publication which the SJG instructions for writers say to ignore
completely ie it isn't canon.

Dom


- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:49:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: T4 Novel

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:

>And as for T4 starships how come the type T Patrol Cruiser keeps having its
>displacement halved?

Because the canon patrol cruiser is around 400 dT.


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:36:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients

At 02:10 PM 7/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Saturday, July 17, 1999 12:44 AM
>Douglas E. Berry said,
>
>> In my Illuminated Traveller setting, Grandfather is waiting for one race
>>or the other to show that they will be suitable assistants/workers.  He's
>> partial to the Droyne (natch!), so he keeps giving them little boosts,
>>like the Coyn ceremony for casting, but they have been a major 
>>disappointment.

>The only problem that I have with this is that a competitive universe tends
>to favor competitive/aggressive folk and they don't make the best docile
>workers.  A little too ambitious to be content with just taking orders.

When he finds the one he likes, he'll offer them the job.  This means
getting TL-35 goodies.  Picture Vargr war packs equipped with Ancient built
ships.

>> His pocket universe does have a different flow of time, and Grandfather
>> spends most of his time in a semi-comatose state, stirring every few
>> centuries to examine the state of the universe, and perhaps meddling a
>>little.

>I would think you would want to swing the time flow the other way, unless
>boredom is a problem. 

I guess I wasn't clear.  Time is faster in Grandfather's system.  Since the
few (unlucky) telepaths who've managed to touch his mind get an image of a
radically slowed mind, the image as that of a sleeping god.

>Thinking of Grandfather's immortality brought to mind a question.  Where do
>anagathics come from?  Some Imperial research program?  Ancient technology?
>Or is Grandfather leaking some immortality juice (In a weekend form) into
>the Imperium to adjust some variables.

Well, the simple answer is.. <FNORD> ..mix in the cranberry juice, three
minutes on HIGH, and you're immortal!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:51:40 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: [Digest Version] Traveller-digest V1999 #869

>Anyone seen - Traveller-digest V1999 #869?
>It hasn't arrived here yet and I've had the subsequent 3!

You too. I didn't get it either. I had to request it from the list. i.e.

Send to: majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with: get traveller-digest v1999.n869
in the message body.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:04:14 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: starports

>Another White Dwarf bit, the scenario "Shuttle Scuffle," did also have some 
>port layout IIRC. I'll have to look...	

WD49 - Also by Thomas M Price, uses a slight variant of the class C starport
from Happy Landings (WD 43) for "Alfka Spaceport".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:36:12 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

What about Arcturus Station, from "Murder on Arcturus Station". Would
this be concidered say a C or B typr highport?

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
> >Subject:
> 
> >> As to Highports, I can't remember any designs, but I always based mine off

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:57:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: "Immortality Juice" (Was: Re: Speaking of Ancients)

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >Thinking of Grandfather's immortality brought to mind a question.  Where do
> >anagathics come from?  Some Imperial research program?  Ancient technology?
> >Or is Grandfather leaking some immortality juice (In a weekend form) into
> >the Imperium to adjust some variables.
> 
> Well, the simple answer is.. <FNORD> ..mix in the cranberry juice, three
> minutes on HIGH, and you're immortal!

Immortality Juice...sounds like something to drink at Crescent City Con
in a couple of weeks.  \~/ ;-)

Any TMLers going? 

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 20:26:44 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Digest 869

On 07/19/99 at 06:41 PM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>It showed up on time in the archives, but I never actually received
>it by  eMail...

Did *anybody* get 869?  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 20:33:11 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

On 07/19/99 at 02:34 PM,  "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu> said:


>Also in the T4 book p.109, I believe, there is a drawing in which the
>caption mentions that within the portal's depths is seen the shifting
>pattern of jump space.  This leads me to ask what does jump space
>look like? Shifting patterns of what kind/  Multicolored?  Glowing
>blue clouds? Red (ala B5)?  Arching energy discharges?  What would a
>character see if they looked out a window or went EVA during jump?

Eris
Madness
Shiva

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:57:15 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space.

>This model has the effect of isolating
>ships effectively in their own universe (Unless fleets are allowed to
>somehow link their drives).  This keeps away from the possibility  of
>collisions.
>
>I have a few other ideas floating in my head but this is all I will subject
>the list to in this post.  Please feel free to pick apart these ideas
>anywhere you like.

I've been using GT ship design rules lately. I allow a ship with a command
bridge to link jump governors of other craft prior to jump. This allows them
to coordinate the jump.  Naturally most commercial (read PC) craft do not
have Command Bridges, so if multiple jumpships with regular bridges attempt
to jump together they are susceptible to jump variation.

This has the effect of giving military craft an advantage over nonmilitary
craft, and allows effective fleet action. Without this capability a fleet
would arrive at a target system over a period of several days and have to
loiter to wait for the full fleet to arrive. This shifts the balance heavily
to the defenders. Too heavily in my opinion.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:10:15 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Two Questions

Was written:

>How about a high-velocity/high rate of fire weapon.  It may not penetrate
>the suit, but smash up any sensors/the visor/the weapon.  It may also
>cause "spall" damage inside the suit.


I thought about that type of weapon for knock down but did not think it
through as far as you did, don't know why what you suggest sounds perfectly
reasonable to me.

Regardin my suggetion which ran "How about high pressure hoses of salt
>>water
>>> with electric currents run through them to knock them down and
>>possibly
>>> short their circuitry?"

I guess I was not clear in my question, the intent was for the high pressure
hoses to provide knock down, the high amp alternating electric current was
intended to screw with their circuitry.  Does anyone think that it would
work?  Would a high amp capacitance discharge device, sort of like a super
taser or even a super shock wand have any effect on battle dress either on
its circuitry or the critter inside?  Incidentally the super banana peel
(sbp) is really a grand idea.  I can picture hoses from slurry pumps with an
STP type lubricant and ball bearings or some sort of dump trap.

The orginal question came out of a CT campaign I ran many years back.  It
consisted "Wild Geese type screw job".   The PC mercenaries are stuck in a
bad situation on a low tech world, barely up to WWI technology minus the
gas.   Their transport off world, the only transport, will not arrive in
system for several months.  They fight their way out of the initial ambush
with a limited amount of high tech, TL 12 or so personal arms and hook up
with some "friendly nomads" who were the resistance against the bad guys.
The kicker was that the other side was getting covert high tech advice.
Everytime the PCs would use "high tech weaponery" in a critical situation
the other side would generally have a low tech crude, but reasonably
effective, counter measure the next time it was tried against an important
target.   The issue I was trying to make with the party was that low tech
doesn't equal stupid.   I ran the campaign segment twice, once with my
regular group and then later for a game shop buddy's high school group.  I
really was shocked when one teen asked how much should he lead a biplane
with his laser rifle.   I said, "Well its a side on shot, the plane is
moving relatively slow.  Think now, how fast is the projectile, i.e. the
lazer beam, travelling relative to the target's velocity.   You should be
able to figure it out for yourself."  I got a confused look in return and I
then suggested, in jest, that a couple of millimeters ahead of the exact
point on the plane he wanted to hit would do the trick.

>tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:49:38 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

>If something requires a tensile strength *greater* than the bonding
>forces between atoms, then you can't build it unless you can mess with
>bonding forces. Which opens up a *huge* can of worms.

Gee, kind of like superdense materials, which we know **are** canon.  Or
perhaps contragrav. Or maybe Black and White Globe technology. Or thruster
plates, which deliver thrust without either heat or radiation damage. Or
possibly even replusors? Maybe some people don't use all of these in their
TU. But they all exist in the OTU.

And for the record. The reason that the spruce goose or even the Wright
plane couldn't be built by Leonardo Da Vinchi had much to do with the lack
of an underlying technical support structure than any single cause.

I suggest persuing the Star Trek Interactive tech manual. Not to use as a
direct source, but for it's underlying premise of technological
interconnectedness.  The authors pre-supposed several impossible
technological innovations and then carried them forth to their logical
conclusion. For Example:

If you can transport matter from one place to another, one of the
technologies you have to have is something to make a pattern of the matter
and store it. Now If I can take a pattern and store it and them convert it
to matter why cant I just take a "picture" of an object, permanently store
it, and make a copy whenever I want. And so now we have the famous
replicator.

Another example: Warp drive has a component that reduces the inertia of an
object, thereby reducing it's mass, at least as far as the "real" universe
is concerned.  So why not add a little bit of warp drive to the impulse
engines that are used to travel through normal space? By reducing the mass
of the craft you can get more velocity for less thrust.

Yeah its all impossible and goes against the laws of physics as we
understand it. But it is internally consistent.  (No I don't want to start a
debate on the consistency of the shows, the movies, or the books. Nor am I
saying to use these devices in Traveller.)

OBTRAV:Contragrav. Personal grav belts exist. That indicates a device small
enough to fit in a belt capable of lifting ~100-300 lbs.  Different
Traveller rules handle motion differently. (I believe CT allows contragrav
craft self-propulsion in a gravity field. GURPS requires a separate
thruster, which at GTL12 is probably a thrust plate.) So lets assume the GT
floating contrgrav. From this follows the contragrav stretcher, the
contrgrav "wheel" chair, the contragrav refrigerator/furniture mover, even
the contrgrav cargo container mover and the contragrav city. Much already
discussed here. These are the obvious spin-offs of this technology. What are
the unobvious spin-offs and results? Homes with doors on the roof? Windows
that are always locked, even on the twelfth floor.  Perhaps buildings whose
roofs aren't even attached to the rest of the building, but supported by
contragrav. (Yes I realize it will fall if the contragrav fails.) Other
ideas?

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #875
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 20 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 876



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tech question
RE: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Tech
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Ancients project (was: speaking of the Ancients)
Re: more battledress
Contra-Grav Spinoffs (was: Re: Enclosed Bays)
more battledress stuff
Re Battledress
re: Battledress
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Self-Forging Warheads vs BD
Re: Equatorial Settlement
Re: Starports
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Digest 869
Slow Light
Ancients Project (longish)
RE: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD
Re: Tech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:01:28 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Tech question

In mail you write:

>>>> You can pump most of the atmosphere into adjoining sections or tanks, prior
>>>> to opening the doors. Cheap.
>>
>>>Time consuming. Check out the sort of pumps required. It takes a long
>>>time to pump *anything* out to a near vacuum unless you use a pump
>>>almost as big as the volume you are pumping out.
>>
>> Is that a basic limitation or can we expect that to improve with TL?

>I'm fairly sure it's a basic limitation. Remember, your "pump" has to
>accept input at the *ambient* pressure of the volume you are trying to
>pump down. Which means that as the pressure drops, the *amount* of gas
>in the volume of the pump drops rapidly.

>Turbine pumps are pretty much useless for achieving low pressures. So at
>least to get from standard pressure to "fairly low" (a "roughing pump")
>you use what amounts to a piston pump. Many are rotary, but the
>principle is the same.

Of course the pumps that are used at really high vacuums have **no** moving
part: ion pumps. I'm not suggesting that Traveller ships use ion pumps.
Todays pumps require quite a bit of "roughing" before an ion pump can be
used to finish the evacuation. What I'm saying is that I find the idea that
a piston or turbine would be used thousands of years in the future to
accomplish this somewhat silly.  Especially as they have replusor
technology. I would expect some kind of device that would use repulsor or
contrgrav technology to rapidly pump liquids and gases, at rates much higher
than we can accomplish, without moving parts.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:01:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients

> From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>

> Thinking of Grandfather's immortality brought to mind a question.  Where do
> anagathics come from?  Some Imperial research program?  Ancient technology?
> Or is Grandfather leaking some immortality juice (In a weekend form) into
> the Imperium to adjust some variables.

Some of the best anagathics come from the tree kraken, an endangered
species on ... um, I forget, somewhere in the Spinward Marches.  I think
that's mentioned in Adventure 1: The Kinunir.  Surely SuSAG makes
synthetic and natural anagathics.  Nevertheless, the anagathics that
might allow people of Solomani ancestry to extend their life-spans to
match the Vilani (120+ years) still can't bring anyone anywhere close to
Grandfather's age.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:06:05 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Tech

>>>And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. <snip>
>>
>> I thought we had already determined that trav ships have a heat problem
and
>> that they can dump heat efficiently (using near magical radiators) :-)

>That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
>heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
>possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.
>
>To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
>*below* room temp.

Unless you have the ability to convert heat to another form, say directly to
electricity and then store it for latter use. I know **we** can't do it. But
it's theoretically possible, and consistent with the other advances in
Traveller technology.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:38:55 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 07/19/99 at 02:34 PM,  "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu> said:
> 
> >Also in the T4 book p.109, I believe, there is a drawing in which the
> >caption mentions that within the portal's depths is seen the shifting
> >pattern of jump space.  This leads me to ask what does jump space
> >look like? Shifting patterns of what kind/  Multicolored?  Glowing
> >blue clouds? Red (ala B5)?  Arching energy discharges?  What would a
> >character see if they looked out a window or went EVA during jump?

I'm sorry, Citizen, but that information is _not_ available at your
security clearance.  Please report to DOA Sector for reassignment. 
Serve the Computer.
> 
> Eris
> Madness
> Shiva

Hail Eris!  All Hail Discordia!

Of course, in place of Shiva, they might instead see Kali.  Kill!  Kill
for the love of Kali!

~ahem~  Sorry about that.  Finals week approaches....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:00:53 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ancients project (was: speaking of the Ancients)

The discussion regarding the Ancients is going all over the place.  Which is 
good.  However, could there be a bit more focus on the time of the Ancients. 
  The current whereabouts of Grandfather is a mystery best kept secret.  Not 
wishing to censor the discussion.  I just feel less Grandfather become like 
the almighty demigod of Traveller.  I view him more of a dispassionate 
visitor who is sometimes called back into our universe when there is a major 
disruption (eg. the return of the Droyne as an interstellar race thanks to 
the Anomaly events or when Humaniti[substitute any other race equally] goes 
on a warpath and begins to enslave Droyne) to the Droyne race whom see still 
view as his babies.  Grandfather comes and gives a handout.
   Mr. Berry inadvertially kindled a thought that was buried deep in my 
imagination.  There was some discussion about Grandfather being some sort of 
Mule or Mutant.  Readers will know I concur the genetic structure of 
grandfather must have been slightly different.  However, what makes 
Grandfather unique was that he was a Leader above all Leaders.  Mr. Berry 
clarified that he was a Napoleon of his race or to put into a more modern 
context...perhaps, we ought to view him as a Stalin or Hitler.
As there is no need view the Ancients as Angels in fact, the Solomani 
sourcebook clearly states one half of humaniti made them angels and the 
other cast them as devils.  These monsters of the 20th century that I have 
named in the previous portion believed what they were doing was best for 
keeping their nation on top.  For me, Grandfather is Faust unbound until he 
sees his Children following in his footsteps.  Having remorse and not 
wanting the Droyne to emerge as a super-race and instead confront a greater 
evil.  Grandfather launches the Final War.




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:25:05 -0700
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: more battledress

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:19:00 -0400 Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
writes:
>Brad Houston types around the fnords:
> >How about a high-velocity/high rate of fire weapon.  It may not penetrate
> >the suit, but smash up any sensors/the visor/the weapon.  It may also
> >cause "spall" damage inside the suit.
>
>    The idea of taking out Battledress sensors and communications quickly 
>is a good one.  It removes the most dangerous weapon system mounted on 
>Battledress, the Ortillery Forward Observer option.
>

The same concept applies to regular tanks as well.  In Iraq we used a SP
Vulcan (20mm, HE, 3000 rounds per minute) on a captured Iraqi tank.  300
rounds (6 seconds) later the tank had no treads, no antennas, no vision
blocks, no external machine guns, no sight for the cannon.  Can't move,
can't call for help, and the only way it can see (and aim) is to look
down the barrel of the main gun.  Of course, we did get some spall damage
as well, but I guess Battledress is better than Soviet made tanks.

Brad Houston

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:12:46 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Contra-Grav Spinoffs (was: Re: Enclosed Bays)

Terry Carlino wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> OBTRAV:Contragrav. Personal grav belts exist. That indicates a device small
> enough to fit in a belt capable of lifting ~100-300 lbs.  Different
> Traveller rules handle motion differently. (I believe CT allows contragrav
> craft self-propulsion in a gravity field. GURPS requires a separate
> thruster, which at GTL12 is probably a thrust plate.) So lets assume the GT
> floating contrgrav. From this follows the contragrav stretcher, the
> contrgrav "wheel" chair, the contragrav refrigerator/furniture mover, even
> the contrgrav cargo container mover and the contragrav city. Much already
> discussed here. These are the obvious spin-offs of this technology. What are
> the unobvious spin-offs and results? Homes with doors on the roof? Windows
> that are always locked, even on the twelfth floor.  Perhaps buildings whose
> roofs aren't even attached to the rest of the building, but supported by
> contragrav. (Yes I realize it will fall if the contragrav fails.) Other
> ideas?

Here are a couple of possibilities suggested by the ability to
manipulate gravity:

1.  Megaconstruction projects become simpler and safer.  One limit on
skyscraper construction is the difficulty of moving building materials
to the upper levels of the building.  While this can be overcome at
TL-8, eventually the cost of doing so becomes prohibitive.  With
relatively cheap CG, buildings can rise much higher.  In fact, the main
limits I can see would be the strength of the materials used (which may
themselves be CG-assisted), and the lack of oxygen at higher levels. 
Meanwhile, construction becomes safer, as a falling worker becomes a
minor inconvenience, rather than a red flapjack.

2.  Lifespans can increase, even without anagathics.  It has long been
suggested in science fiction that low-gravity environments will extend
lifespans, due to decreased stresses on the human body.  If this is
indeed the case, then those whose systems need decreased stresses can
live in lower-gravity dwellings.  OTOH, the healthy and strong can live
in normal (or slightly higher-than-normal) gravity, both to prevent
calcium loss in microgravity and to ensure that exposure to high natural
gravity is not a catastrophic stress on their bodies. 

3.  The real estate available for human use increases drastically.  If
one can counter gravity, one can increase it locally as well (witness
the artificial gravity on Traveller starships).  This means that both
low-gravity bodies (such as moons and asteroids) and high-gravity bodies
(such as unusually large/dense planets) can be made more easily
habitable.  Even if gravitic manipulation cannot be made global (this
would allow retention of atmosphere by small bodies), the adjustment of
gravity in occupied spaces would make the transistion from Earth-sized
worlds to low-gravity or high-gravity bodies simple, as all would have
similar apparent gravity.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:23:21 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: more battledress stuff

Dave Nelson:
 >In a message dated 7/17/99 12:27:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
 >dberry@hooked.net writes:
 > Works until the BD equipped trooper slags your backhoe with one shot.
 >Well, that's what the net is for.   He steps on the net, a spotter gives a
 >signal to the backhoe around the corner, the net is hoisted tight, so he
 >can't get a chance to aim, and swing away.

      Refer to the classic flick "Predator" on how long you can keep an 
armored trooper with a plasma gun in a net.
They generally land rather pissed.

     The trick here is to hit the net with *multiple* LAW rockets RDQ, 
before the trooper blasts his/her way out of the net.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- ----
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are 
remitted
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 02:26:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Battledress

>Regardin my suggetion which ran "How about high pressure hoses of salt
>>>water
>>>> with electric currents run through them to knock them down and
>>>possibly
>>>> short their circuitry?"
>
>I guess I was not clear in my question, the intent was for the high pressure
>hoses to provide knock down, the high amp alternating electric current was
>intended to screw with their circuitry.  Does anyone think that it would
>work?  Would a high amp capacitance discharge device, sort of like a super
>taser or even a super shock wand have any effect on battle dress either on
>its circuitry or the critter inside?  Incidentally the super banana peel
>(sbp) is really a grand idea.  I can picture hoses from slurry pumps with an
>STP type lubricant and ball bearings or some sort of dump trap.
>
Doubtful that the hoses would get the water anywhere it would do any harm,
aside from simple knockabout from the waterpressure... BD can survive
safely exposures of up to 2d6 hours in an insidious atmosphere, so it can
probably withstand weeks of saline.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 02:42:52 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battledress

William F. Hostman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
Doubtful that the hoses would get the water anywhere it would do any harm,
aside from simple knockabout from the waterpressure... BD can survive
safely exposures of up to 2d6 hours in an insidious atmosphere, so it can
probably withstand weeks of saline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't think the salt is in the water as a corrosive element - I think it's
intended to make the water as electrically conductive as possible.

I don't think you can make a water stream as electrically dangerous
as a wire net (carried by harpoons from a nice launcher, spooling 
out a wire hooked to a mondo battery pack, or a handy landline...).
You might not be able to electrocute the wearer, but you might be
able to make some of the volatile stuff he's wearing explode.
Regardless, his sensor array and carried gear will be a royal mess.

I wonder...is there something else you could spray from a hose
that would be bad for battledress? Something sticky and flammable,
perhaps - these suits did re-entry, but they don't have their ablative
drop pods any more, you might be able to cook them. Or how about
some opaque, sticky, radar-reflective paint? Blind and clumsy isn't
the same as dead, but it's a good start.

I don't know enough about the materials involved to know what kind
of damaging chemicals you could spray on battledress. I doubt such
chemicals, if they existed, would be lower tech than the battledress,
so we can leave them out of the discussion for now. Unless, of course,
that last Free Trader had a couple tanks of Superdense-B-Gone in
his cargo hold... :-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 02:28:19 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

On 07/19/99 at 10:38 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Eris
>> Madness
>> Shiva

>Hail Eris!  All Hail Discordia!

I get that a lot. ;-p

>Of course, in place of Shiva, they might instead see Kali.  Kill! 
>Kill for the love of Kali!

I thought of Loki *after* I had sent the first post. My second draft is...

Eris
Loki
Shiva

...although Khrisna might be a better choice. Hee! Hee!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 00:26:40 -0700
From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
Subject: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD

Has anyone thought about using self-forging warheads against battle dress? I
haven't seen any design rules that cover that sort of weapon in FFS or
Gurps. Basically you're detonating a slab of explosives behind a curved
metal plate. The plate is transformed into a superhot jet of liquid metal
very similar to a HEAT tank round. It should appear about TL7 and could be
built from items the low-tech (relatively) defenders should be able to find
(i.e. doesn't take much in the way of manufacturing facilities to build). If
it didn't penetrate the battledress (or even kill the operator through
concussion), it'd definately ruin his day.

David Larson
davidlarson@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 03:28:35 -0400
From: neo@total.net
Subject: Re: Equatorial Settlement

>> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
 snip
>> Didn't Israel put up a satellite launching West not East? Or against the
>> rotation so they had a rotational velocity disadvantage to overcome?
>
>Probably. And like most "first satellite" launches, there's a hidden
>subtext. Namely "We can launch nuclear ICBMs". That's why the US got so
>worried when the USSR launched Sputnik. Any rocket capable of that
>launch was capable of dropping a nuke anywhere in the world.
>
>So doing it the "wrong way" just makes Israel look *better* :-)

Certainly.

Of course, the *real* reason seems obvious from a glance at a map: if they
launched eastward, the ascending missile would fly over Jordan, Saudi
Arabia, Iraq, and Iran, who might object to that sort of thing. Westward
puts it over the Mediterranean.

Best,

 + GMG +

                         Glenn Grant
                        neo@total.net
"A scholar is just a library's way of making another library"
                       --Daniel Dennet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:44:32 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Starports

Remember Folks, 
Loren said he cant read the TML, so someone better forward him a list of
all mentioned Sources.
I would, except i thought of it to late...
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:29:49 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

<excerpt>Thing writes:


>The only problem I have is the chance of collision.  Of course ships
>disappear all the time ;).  If you had sensors that worked in jump space
>you could see a collision coming, but without thrusters that worked in
>jump space you would not be able to avoid it so no word of the
>collisions would ever get through unless someone else was passing in
>observation range.  Of course, if you had thrusters that worked in jump
>space you would probably never get back on the exact same flight path
>after the coarse correction and end up coming out hell knows where.


	The way that I deal with this is that jump space is BIG. To 
	paraphrase "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe": Space is
	big. You just can't believe how mind-bogglingly big space is.
	I mean, you may think that it's a long walk to the pharmacy, 
	but that's just peanuts to space... Well, jumpspace is 
	bigger and space is just peanuts to jump space. The odds of
	colliding with anything in jumpspace as close to nil as most
	anything gets. The other thing is that I don't regard jump-
	space as linear: if two identical starships perform identical
	jumps from points 100 m appart, they will not arrive 100 m 
	appart. Rather, they follow different "trajectories" and may 
	arrive thousands of km appart. Thrusters are pretty useless
	in jumpspace, but firing them may mess up the jump (you are
	changing the mass of the vessel, if nothing else).

>There is reference in the Psionic Institute book (T4) to a theory that
>all psionics are the result or an ancient machine that exists in
>jumpspace pointing to the fact that jumpspace has a continuos existence
>outside of operating a jump field.


	Although I do not invoke the ancients to explain psionics, I
	have always regarded Teleportation as a specialized jump 
	(matter transporters as well).


>Also in the T4 book p.109, I believe, there is a drawing in which the
>caption mentions that within the portal's depths is seen the shifting
>pattern of jump space.  This leads me to ask what does jump space look
>like? Shifting patterns of what kind/  Multicolored?  Glowing blue
>clouds? Red (ala B5)?  Arching energy discharges?  What would a
>character see if they looked out a window or went EVA during jump?

</excerpt>

	IMTU there is no light whatsoever. Ultimate darkness. As I
	do not require a "jump field" to be in jumpspace, going EVA
	is not a problem (and suit thrusters work). Just don't get
	too far away just before emerging into realspace.


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:42:19 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

Terry Carlino writes:
<snipped>
>I allow a ship with a command bridge to link jump governors of other craft
>prior to jump. This allows them to coordinate the jump.
<snipped>
>Without this capability a fleet would arrive at a target system over a
>period of several days and have to loiter to wait for the full fleet to
>arrive. This shifts the balance heavily to the defenders. Too heavily in
>my opinion.

	How much this would favour the defenders depends on:
		1) how much variance you impose on jump times
		2) how good sensors are IYTU
		3) how many ships the defending force has to cover
			the system
	This has already been discussed on the TML, but IMTU it is
	easy enough to jump to a random spot in the system and
	wait there for stragglers (which will arrive long before
	the defending force can maneuver to intercept). Life is 
	made easier by the lack of any "jump signature" on arrival
	IMTU. Nevertheless, uncoordinated jumps would be hazardous
	if one wanted to arrive close to the main world in order to
	catch the forces there by surprise.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:43:30 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Digest 869

Eris Reddoch writes:

>Did *anybody* get 869?  

	I DID! I DID! Do I win a prize?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:38:05 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Slow Light

Possibly of interest to Trav fans....


The Learning Kingdom's Cool Fact of the Day for July 20, 1999
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

              When does light travel slower than sound?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


Usually, light zooms through space at 300 million meters (186,000
miles) per second.  But in a recent experiment, a pulse of light was
slowed down to only 17 meters (55.7 feet) per second.  Sound travels
at 340 meters (1115 feet) per second in air.

The trick was to pass the light pulse through a cloud of extremely
cold sodium atoms.  The sodium atoms, which were cooled to a frigid
50 billionths of a degree above absolute zero, entered a special
state called a "Bose-Einstein condensate."  In this state, millions
of atoms act as if they are one single atom.

The light pulse slowed down because it constantly exchanged energy
with the atoms in the cloud.  Upon leaving the cloud, it returned to
its normal zippy pace.  Scientists are excited by the experiment's
implications for physics.  It might also lead to new components for
optical computers or other devices.

The experiment was conducted by Dr. Lene Hau at the Rowland Institute:
http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/P360/Week13/light/
story.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/02/990223083631.htm

A Cool Fact about how Bose-Einstein condensates are formed:
http://www.cool-fact.com/archive/1997/10/16.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:49:27 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ancients Project (longish)

Following last night's commentary. I know there will be an outcry against a 
destroying the belovent image of Grandfather and may be attempts to turn him 
into a peaceful Gardener of the Stars.  I am reminded of a passage from A. 
Rybakov's novel - Fear:

	  Sasha knew which man she meant.
	  "But, the party, the people-"
	  "We don't have a Party," Zvyaguro interrupted.  "We have cadres who 
obediently carry out his polices.  He hates the Party and is destroying it 
and he hates the people and he's destroying them too."
	  Sasha ran his eyes over the newspaper pages.  "Here's what Stalin says 
about he people:  `People have to be nutured like a gardener nutures a 
beloved fruit tree.'"
	  Lidya Grigoryevna interrupted him again.  "`Gardener', `tree', How many 
millions of those `trees' has he chopped down in the villages?  How many 
millions have died of hunger...You don't know him, but I do.  I saw him.  I 
saw him closely as I see you now.  People, lives-they mean nothing to him.  
He's worse than a criminal, and he'll not not stop at murder if he needs 
something.  He's an actor; he can play any role.  Now he's talking about the 
people, flattering the people.  All tyrants do that.  The smart tyrant 
always flatters the people with words, while with words he destroys them.  
Don't you ever think about that?

I don'y want turn Grandfather into a paranoid homocidal mass murderer.  But, 
I think one must realize how readily myths are actively created to foster 
the pursuit of power.  The tragedy of Grandfather is that he learns this too 
late like Faust.  Having the need to destroy all that he has created yet 
still a prisoner of his own creation - a pocket universe.
   As to the question of his immortality which has been floating around the 
discussion.  Why need it be the same body.  At TL15 brain transplants are 
possible At TL30+ it would be like treating a broken leg, I imagine.  
Grandfather could opt for a whole range of bodies specifically tailored to 
his needs as he possibily no longer as exists in a physical form but in a 
stored form.  Problem being that if you keep on making photocopies of 
photocopies you may lose the original as quality diminishes.  Hence, lives 
out the rest of his days in a pocket universe in suspended animation 
relaying upon his servants to play the role of gathers of information (and 
even after the Final War that role is substantially diminished.  Therefore, 
what Grandfather is and what he has become perhaps is the true Secret of the 
Ancients.
   On the list, I think we should not overuse the Ancients as the final 
answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.  Rather see in a milieu in 
which the civilization rose, prospered, declined and fell under the great 
wheel of History.  Traces of intermediary civilizations could be mistaken 
for the Ancients.  One needs only look at the Church of the Chosen or the 
Zhodani and Genosse for where a divine right clouds imperial pretentions.  
My keen interest is to develop civilizations that were on par or more 
advanced than the Ancients.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:12:12 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients

>Or is Grandfather leaking some immortality juice (In a weekend form) into
>the Imperium to adjust some variables.

Something for the weekend son. Thanks, gramps. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD

David & Kristin Larson writes:
> Has anyone thought about using self-forging warheads against battle dress?
> I haven't seen any design rules that cover that sort of weapon in FFS or
> Gurps. Basically you're detonating a slab of explosives behind a curved
> metal plate. The plate is transformed into a superhot jet of liquid metal
> very similar to a HEAT tank round. 

There's no serious advantage to SEFOP over a regular HEAT round for purposes
of killing battledress, unless you're building mines or the BD is construced
with reactive armor (I'd probably treat a SEFOP round as a HEAT round with
-1/3 power, the same as for popup rounds).  That said, a 60mm TL 9 HEAT round
in GT does 6d*15(10), and would have about a 50% kill rate on the BD in Star
Mercs, much higher against lower-DR versions.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Tech

Terry Carlino writes:
> >>>And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. <snip>
> >>
> >> I thought we had already determined that trav ships have a heat problem
> and
> >> that they can dump heat efficiently (using near magical radiators) :-)
> 
> >That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
> >heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
> >possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.
> >
> >To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
> >*below* room temp.
> 
> Unless you have the ability to convert heat to another form, say directly
> to electricity and then store it for latter use. I know **we** can't do
> it. But it's theoretically possible, and consistent with the other advances
> in Traveller technology.

Actually its not theoretically possible (unless you have a major
low-temperature cooling source, which we already know we don't have), unless
you can violate the second law of thermodynamics (which doesn't necessarily
say you can't do this, black globe generators _do_ violate the second law of
thermodynamics).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #876
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 877



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tech
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
suggestion for resolving some tech issues with GT
Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Starports
Re: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD
Re: Tech question
Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Digest list burps
hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
Re:  Slow Light
Grandfather, the unaging
Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Grandfather, the unaging
Re: Grandfather, the unaging
Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
Re: On the nature of Jump Space 
Re: On the nature of Jump Space 
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Mystery Ship rerevisited, Mk I
Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour
Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers...
Re:  Re: [deckplans] Mystery Ship rerevisited, Mk I
Popular Gravitics, part 1 (long)
Re: Enclosed Bays (longish)
Re : Tech
Re : Contra-Grav Spinoffs
TML stoppage?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Tech

Terry Carlino writes:
> >>>And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. <snip>
> >>
> >> I thought we had already determined that trav ships have a heat problem
> and
> >> that they can dump heat efficiently (using near magical radiators) :-)
> 
> >That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
> >heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
> >possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.
> >
> >To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
> >*below* room temp.
> 
> Unless you have the ability to convert heat to another form, say directly
> to electricity and then store it for latter use. I know **we** can't do
> it. But it's theoretically possible, and consistent with the other advances
> in Traveller technology.

Actually its not theoretically possible (unless you have a major
low-temperature cooling source, which we already know we don't have), unless
you can violate the second law of thermodynamics (which doesn't necessarily
say you can't do this, black globe generators _do_ violate the second law of
thermodynamics).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:31:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 07/19/99 at 02:34 PM,  "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu> said:
> 
> >Also in the T4 book p.109, I believe, there is a drawing in which the
> >caption mentions that within the portal's depths is seen the shifting
> >pattern of jump space.  This leads me to ask what does jump space
> >look like? Shifting patterns of what kind/  Multicolored?  Glowing
> >blue clouds? Red (ala B5)?  Arching energy discharges?  What would a
> >character see if they looked out a window or went EVA during jump?
> 
> Eris
> Madness
> Shiva
>

Wakko, Jakko and Dot.

They're knocking on the door...do you let them in? ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: suggestion for resolving some tech issues with GT

A lot of tech issues with GT can be fixed by simply assuming that the imperium
is, in general, _early_ TL 12.  Given that it is missing a lot of GTL 12
equipment (many uses of antimatter, for example) this isn't unreasonable in
any case.  So....simply relegate all 'advanced' materials to the use of
imperial research stations and the like.  This means you start constructing
vehicles out of 'expensive' materials and lower.  The only currently published
systems this affects are the battledress from Star Mercs (price drops to a
level I am not currently certain of, DR drops to 750) and the Intrepid, again
from Star Mercs (either leave stats alone, replace advanced metal with
expensive composite, and increase cost to $20 million, or make it DR 18,000
frontal, 6,000 other, of standard composite, and drop cost to $12 million).

However, I'm pretty sure this would affect a lot of proposed designs for
imperial navy, and probably muck with starships as well.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:53:40 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules 
are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred? 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:55:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>

>What about Arcturus Station, from "Murder on Arcturus Station". Would
>this be concidered say a C or B typr highport?

With the downport on the star? ;-)

Probably a good one to use as an example, or the Arcturus station from
T2300AD would be another good one.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:06:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD

>From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
>Subject: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD
>
>Has anyone thought about using self-forging warheads against battle dress? I
>haven't seen any design rules that cover that sort of weapon in FFS or
>Gurps. Basically you're detonating a slab of explosives behind a curved
>metal plate. The plate is transformed into a superhot jet of liquid metal
>very similar to a HEAT tank round. It should appear about TL7 and could be
>built from items the low-tech (relatively) defenders should be able to find

  In CT (using Striker) you can simply assume that very shortly after their
introduction they may actually be standard (this would fit into the HEAP stat
charts at TL 8), thus allowing you to dispense with proliferating laminate 
armour rules a la most modern wargames/miniatures sets.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:06:44 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Tech question

>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Tech question
...
>technology. I would expect some kind of device that would use repulsor or
>contrgrav technology to rapidly pump liquids and gases, at rates much higher
>than we can accomplish, without moving parts.

  Dare one guess what sort of pressures these fields are handling (P=VRT?)
when evacuating even a Subbies hold to tanks? And how small can the units
that do this be manufactured?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:20:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

At 12:53 PM 7/20/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules 
>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred? 

Construction:  FFS2 (Andy's spreadsheet).  I like the level of detail, and
the ability to tweak the smallest details 'til they scream.

Combat: Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider.  Once again, the level of detail is
nice, and they are both very playable.

So now all I need is the next version of the spreadsheet....
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:51:24 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Digest list burps

The digest list seems to be failing every few digests. I had to go get #876 
just now...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:43:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Subject: re: Battledress

> I wonder...is there something else you could spray from a hose
> that would be bad for battledress? Something sticky and flammable,

What about something very cold, like liquid hydrogen (we know from
Azhanti High Lightning (I think) that not even persons in battle dress
can enter a fuel tank that has fuel in it.  Under what conditions (which
atmospheres) could you shoot liquid hydrogen at battle dress?  What
would be the effects?  What about other liquified gases, like nitrogen?
or liquid oxygen, which would also be very combustible?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:46:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Slow Light

> From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>

>               When does light travel slower than sound?
[deletion]
> The trick was to pass the light pulse through a cloud of extremely
> cold sodium atoms.  The sodium atoms, which were cooled to a frigid

That appears not to have been a fair race at all.  They measured light
through super cooled sodium, but referred to the speed of sound in air
at sea level.  They should send the sound through the sodium, too, and
then decide who is the winner.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:12:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Grandfather, the unaging

>   As to the question of his immortality which has been floating around the
>discussion.  Why need it be the same body.  At TL15 brain transplants are
>possible At TL30+ it would be like treating a broken leg, I imagine.

If one looks at the Droyne Aliens Module, it becomes quite clear that
indeed, grandfather simply stopped aging, due to a combination of PSR15 and
the correct talent (awareness) at that level... any droyne can do it,
assuming they get both to the correct level of skill and power, don't get
shot, and avoid Yaskodray's attentions.

Note that under CT, the droyne had their own psionics tables, with some
abilities available at different levels. All psionics under CT were "index
level of skill (which could not exceed PSR) on table to find out abilities
granted by that skill." Aslan, Vargr, Humans (including Zhodani) all use
the normal tables. Hivers can't do it at all, and droyne have their own
tables. Don't recall about K'Kree.... No other traveller editions have
similar phenomena in the mechanics, and thus it doesn't fit the system
mechanics as nicely. (altho in a TNE game, a player of a  droyne with
awareness successfully agrued for DM+ PSR/2 on aging saves)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> What about something very cold, like liquid hydrogen (we know from
> Azhanti High Lightning (I think) that not even persons in battle dress
> can enter a fuel tank that has fuel in it.  Under what conditions (which
> atmospheres) could you shoot liquid hydrogen at battle dress?  What
> would be the effects?  What about other liquified gases, like nitrogen?
> or liquid oxygen, which would also be very combustible?  

Well, have fun coming up with a flexible hose which you can use to shoot
hydrogen with, it's at around 20K  To be honest, battledress should be able to
wade through LHd for short periods, though you wouldn't want to stay in a tank
for any significant period of time.  The effects of shooting liquid hydrogen
at someone in battledress would be relatively insignificant (aside from
creating a fire hazard), you'd need a ton or more of hydrogen to really
freeze up heavy battledress.  Effects of liquid nitrogen and liquid oxygen
would be similar -- you need a greater weight in liquified gas than the mass
of the target suit.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:30:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> What about something very cold, like liquid hydrogen (we know from
> Azhanti High Lightning (I think) that not even persons in battle dress
> can enter a fuel tank that has fuel in it.  Under what conditions (which
> atmospheres) could you shoot liquid hydrogen at battle dress?  What
> would be the effects?  What about other liquified gases, like nitrogen?
> or liquid oxygen, which would also be very combustible?  

Well, have fun coming up with a flexible hose which you can use to shoot
hydrogen with, it's at around 20K.  To be honest, battledress should be able
to wade through LHd for short periods, though you wouldn't want to stay in a
tank for any significant period of time.  The effects of shooting liquid
hydrogen at someone in battledress would be relatively insignificant (aside
from creating a fire hazard), you'd need a ton or more of hydrogen to really
freeze up heavy battledress.  Effects of liquid nitrogen and liquid oxygen
would be similar -- you need a greater weight in liquified gas than the mass
of the target suit.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:40:50 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 12:53 PM 7/20/99 EDT, you wrote:
> >Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules
> >are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred?
> 
> Construction:  FFS2 (Andy's spreadsheet).  I like the level of detail, and
> the ability to tweak the smallest details 'til they scream.

No argument here....
> 
> Combat: Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider.  Once again, the level of detail is
> nice, and they are both very playable.

Another good choice for FF&S2 ships is Bruce Alan Macintosh's Military
Combat System.

Least favorite combat system:  The rules in the basic T4 rulebook.  I
haven't tried the rules out on small starships, so they may not be _too_
bad.  However, a space combat system for Traveller, introduced 16 years
after High Guard 2d edition (HG2), should have a means of resolving ship
combat involving _real_ warships (such as, say, CORONATION-class
battleships [90,000 dtons]from the Milieu:0 timeframe).

Of course, HG2 is _still_ an excellent choice for both ship design and
space combat, if you can track down a copy.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Grandfather, the unaging

William F. Hostman writes:
>
> Note that under CT, the droyne had their own psionics tables, with some
> abilities available at different levels. All psionics under CT were "index
> level of skill (which could not exceed PSR) on table to find out abilities
> granted by that skill." Aslan, Vargr, Humans (including Zhodani) all use
> the normal tables. Hivers can't do it at all, and droyne have their own
> tables. Don't recall about K'Kree.... No other traveller editions have
> similar phenomena in the mechanics, and thus it doesn't fit the system
> mechanics as nicely. (altho in a TNE game, a player of a  droyne with
> awareness successfully agrued for DM+ PSR/2 on aging saves)

Its possible in GT, almost.  The life extension healing discipline can reduce
aging rate by a factor of about 50, given sufficient power or skill (roll vs
power+skill-10).  Only a minor extension from there to a full immortality.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Grandfather, the unaging

William F. Hostman writes:
>
> Note that under CT, the droyne had their own psionics tables, with some
> abilities available at different levels. All psionics under CT were "index
> level of skill (which could not exceed PSR) on table to find out abilities
> granted by that skill." Aslan, Vargr, Humans (including Zhodani) all use
> the normal tables. Hivers can't do it at all, and droyne have their own
> tables. Don't recall about K'Kree.... No other traveller editions have
> similar phenomena in the mechanics, and thus it doesn't fit the system
> mechanics as nicely. (altho in a TNE game, a player of a  droyne with
> awareness successfully agrued for DM+ PSR/2 on aging saves)

Its possible in GT, almost.  The life extension healing discipline can reduce
aging rate by a factor of about 50, given sufficient power or skill (roll vs
power+skill-10).  Only a minor extension from there to a full immortality.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:14:13 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

>would be the effects?  What about other liquified gases, like nitrogen?
>or liquid oxygen, which would also be very combustible?


The problem with firing liquified gases is that they evaporate very quickly
on contact with air, warming quickly and forming a cloud of steam.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:09:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space 

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> Wakko, Jakko and Dot.
> 
> They're knocking on the door...do you let them in? ;-)


That's Yakko, Wakko, & Dot, ain't it??

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:39:32 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space 

>> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> 
>> Wakko, Jakko and Dot.
>> 
>> They're knocking on the door...do you let them in? ;-)
>
>
> That's Yakko, Wakko, & Dot, ain't it??
>
> Keven
Yes, but don't let them in, they'll never leave!

BZA
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 15:11:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

Whj that's exatlj what I said: Jakko :-P

(damn non-type-o-matic fingers!)

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >
> > Wakko, Jakko and Dot.
> >
> > They're knocking on the door...do you let them in? ;-)
> 
> That's Yakko, Wakko, & Dot, ain't it??
> 
> Keven

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:17:09 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Mystery Ship rerevisited, Mk I

All,
  A 100-ton warscout based on the picture from (most recently) G:T page 3 can 
now be found at:

 www://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

 There are one or two other projects around that picture still ongoing, I'm 
told...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:23:28 PDT
From: "Jim Moss" <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour

From this week's _Sports Illustrated_:

Jesper Parnevik, pro golfer, after finishing fifth at the Standard Life Loch 
Lomond: "If you put a rope around the earth and measure it at 26,000 miles 
and then put another rope three feet above the surface, how much longer is 
that rope?  I missed a two-foot putt thinking about it and suddenly had a 
four-footer for bogey."

Nice to know even golfers are thinking about important things while earning 
a living...just like us <grin>.

Jim


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:56:28 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Thermal Shock on Lasers


> In mail you write:
>
> > Given the high energies used by laser focussin arrays does anyone know
> > whether a standard ship laser could be safely fired under water?
>
> Nope.
>

Well, putting aside real physics, I'm sure it is written somewhere in either
an adventure or magazine (perhaps a rulebook?), I don't recall which, that
starship lasers can fire underwater with a decreased range, and that was
only due to the density of the water being greater than air, diffusing the
beam, etc., etc...  So if you want to get around it by a rulebook handwave,
they can (which works great for plot mechanics :)

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:35:01 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: [deckplans] Mystery Ship rerevisited, Mk I

In a message dated 7/20/99 5:28:27 PM, you wrote:

>> All,
>>   A 100-ton warscout based on the picture from (most recently) G:T page 3 
can
>> now be found at:
>>
>>  www://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html
>>
>Hmm, all I get is a "file not found", are you sure that's right?
>BZA

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html

I'm obviously a bit braindead today...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:05:09 -0400
From: neo@total.net
Subject: Popular Gravitics, part 1 (long)

Okay folks, you asked for it...

Here are a couple of articles I wrote over a year ago, about the effects of
gravitics on society, written in the form of a "Popular Gravitics"
magazine. I'd intended to write a how-to article on building your floating
dream home, and a round-up of new grav-vehicles, but never found the time.
I'm unlikely to find the time in the foreseeable future, so here's what
I've got. Maybe some stalwart TMLer will take it up from where I left off.

NB: the description of Efate in the first article is based on the CT-era
UWP, without reference to any other canon sources. For instance, I don't
have at hand the JTAS adventure, "Amber to Red", so I don't know if my
Efate agrees with canon. And so what if it doesn't? YTUMV...

Hope this stuff is useful to somebody...

Best,

 + GMG +

Glenn Grant
neo@total.net

- ---------

Popular Gravitics
                 a magazine for the contragravity addict
	     230-1100

Greetings from Efate
                    from the Editor

I'm dictating this, appropiately enough, from the comfortably plush
interior of a new Famille Spofulam _Prodigue_ luxury sedan, high above the
bustling groundstreets of Atafu, a major city on Efate (Spinward Marches
1705 - A646930-D). I'm here to attend this year's SpinMar GravEx, just
about the biggest event on the calendar for the sector's contragrav
industry. Later in this issue of Popular Gravitics we'll have a full report
on the Expo, with a first look at all the latest vehicles and tech just
unveiled by all the major manufacturers.
     Efate is the perfect place to observe the remarkably far-ranging
effects of gravitic technologies. A densely populated, high-tech world with
famously lax legal strictures, Efate has embraced gravitics with unequaled
abandon. All around me I can see floating buildings of every shape and
size, most of them sensibly close to the ground, some tethered, but many
hanging high overhead like diamondoid clouds. The skylanes snaking between
them are dense with every manner of grav vehicle and, farther down, long
swarms of commuters in gravbelts and gravsuits. Skylane and groundstreet
alike are lined with huge aerial advertisements, a vast clutter of
holographic display screens flashing exuberantly for attention. On most
other worlds, public safety laws would keep the buildings comfortably
secured to the ground (on thin columns at least), the skygrid would keep
the vehicle densities down a bit, and those annoying ads would've been
outlawed long ago. But this is Efate, where the governing oligarchs rule
with a light hand. A little visual cacaphony, hair-raising traffic, and the
occasional house dropping out of the sky are okay with them, so long as the
wheels of commerce are free to churn unimpeded.
     And churn they do. Fortunately, the industrial zones are all well
outside the city, sprawling across the landscape and spewing a lot of
garbage into the air, adding noticeably to the toxins already present in
Efate's thin atmosphere. Though you'd never know it here in Atafu, where
you can walk the streets without a filter. The entire city,
cloud-buildings, holo-boards and all, is encompassed by one of the biggest
pressurized tents I've ever encountered. A stupendously vast, irregular
dome of woven carbon, the tent is a barely visible veil against the sunset.
The tent covers the entire mesa on which the city was built, dipping down
below the plateau at the edges. It's open at the bottom, where the skylanes
slip under the tent's fringe, out of the city's filtered air and into the
thin, toxic miasma beyond. Air pressure helps keep the tent up, but even
here gravitic modules lend a hand.
     It's a cityscape a contragrav-junky could fall in love with.
     And there above me, that cluster of flattened ovoids, is Atafu
Convention Centre, site of this year's GravEx. Let's park and see what's
new, shall we?

                                               -- Kerima Sishurii, Editor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:17:50 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays (longish)

Terry Carlino wrote :-
> >If something requires a tensile strength *greater* than the bonding
> >forces between atoms, then you can't build it unless you can mess with
> >bonding forces. Which opens up a *huge* can of worms.
> 
> Gee, kind of like superdense materials, which we know **are** canon.  Or
> perhaps contragrav. Or maybe Black and White Globe technology. Or thruster
> plates, which deliver thrust without either heat or radiation damage. Or
> possibly even replusors? Maybe some people don't use all of these in their
> TU. But they all exist in the OTU.

The physical properties of superdense matter are still going to be
limited by the strength of chemical bonds. It is not dense enough for
nucleonic interactions to take over (in which case the strong force is
the limit of the material's tensile strength) e.g. neutronium.

Terry, some excellent thoughts about the implications of contragrav.
Other ideas : no stairs or elevators in buildings (?chutes), ground
based zero-g simulators (and a slew of spin-off sports), implications
for materials science and medicine (e.g. materials fabrication, grav
based life support suits to decrease muscle effort (before regen tech)).

Repulsors and contragravity are identical technology in Trav as you
know. The reactionless thruster apparently relies on some slightly
different principle which enables it to operate outside a significant
gravity well.

?Spacecraft drives - high thrust contragrav component for lift-off then
the mysterious reactionless drive outside a gravity well? (which
conveniently limits the latter's use to propulsion).

A big problem is limiting the capability of gravitics. Laser gravitic
focussing is going to require lensing effects driven by millions(?) of
g's of tightly localised spatial distortion.
	Surely the spin-offs from 'pseudo-gravitic optics' would be interesting
if not particularly numerous.

Screen ('globe') technologies and damper fields are a big 'can of
worms'.

Being able to manipulate nuclear binding forces prevents accurate
radioisotope dating (adventure hooks), may be useful in imaging (cause
isotopes already present in sample to decay, releasing photons, etc.),
food sterilisation, and of course remediation of radioactive
areas/materials.

IMTU the black globe acts like the stasis field in Haldeman's 'The
Forever War' (decreases unprotected object's molecular velocity to a few
metres per second), and radiates heat like a black hole.
	Applications in low-temperature refrigeration are obvious ; so there
are a slew of non-military applications for this technology.
	The white globe just radiates over a wider range of the spectrum, but
only energy weapons can be fired out of it.

Rob O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:22:51 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Tech

Terry Carlino wrote :-
> Unless you have the ability to convert heat to another form, say directly to
> electricity and then store it for latter use. I know **we** can't do it. But
> it's theoretically possible, and consistent with the other advances in
> Traveller technology.

Aren't you still going to have to radiate waste heat?
Even if you manage to generate some electrical power from some of the
waste heat, there will still be a heat load that needs disposal.

The same principle applies to pumps ; or has thermodynamics gone to
lunch (only ideal pumps are isentropic, and heat engines limited by the
Carnot cycle)?

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:25:40 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Contra-Grav Spinoffs

Black Ice wrote :-
> OTOH, the healthy and strong can live
> in normal (or slightly higher-than-normal) gravity, both to prevent
> calcium loss in microgravity and to ensure that exposure to high natural
> gravity is not a catastrophic stress on their bodies. 

And we have another option for the bodybuilding addicts. A higher than
normal G-field will do wonders for muscle bulk....

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:33:44 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: TML stoppage?

Now not even the archive is getting anything. Is the TML still producing mail 
for anyone? Has the Archive decided to move?  What?

GC

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #877
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 878



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tech
Re: Enclosed Bays
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: TML Stoppage
History of the Imperium booklet
RE: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
RE: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
RE: Slow Light
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD
Re: Popular Gravitics
Re: Slow Light
Ancients Project (Grandfather, the unAging)
RE: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Popular Gravitics
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 1 (long)
Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:45:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tech

>> >That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
>> >heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
>> >possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.
>> >
>> >To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
>> >*below* room temp.

This isn't true.  You can radiate heat at a temperature higher
than the thing you are cooling.  It is called a heat pump
and it is how an air conditioner works.  (otherwise you
could never cool anything below ambient temperature).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:14:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays

- -----Original Message-----
From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: Enclosed Bays


>OBTRAV:Contragrav. Personal grav belts exist. That indicates a device small
>enough to fit in a belt capable of lifting ~100-300 lbs.  Different
>Traveller rules handle motion differently. (I believe CT allows contragrav
>craft self-propulsion in a gravity field. GURPS requires a separate
>thruster, which at GTL12 is probably a thrust plate.) So lets assume the GT
>floating contrgrav. From this follows the contragrav stretcher, the
>contrgrav "wheel" chair, the contragrav refrigerator/furniture mover, even
>the contrgrav cargo container mover and the contragrav city. Much already
>discussed here. These are the obvious spin-offs of this technology. What
are
>the unobvious spin-offs and results? Homes with doors on the roof? Windows
>that are always locked, even on the twelfth floor.  Perhaps buildings whose
>roofs aren't even attached to the rest of the building, but supported by
>contragrav. (Yes I realize it will fall if the contragrav fails.) Other
>ideas?


Really big frickin' buildings, I mean astonishingly huge arcologies. It's
one of the problems that architects face today. Access is a big problem in
building really big structures today. Nobody wants to climb stairs and
elevators only work up to a point. Contragrav belts allow everybody to carry
their own elevators with them at all times. Everywhere.

There'd be new theories in planning and growing cities. New problems in
governing cities of vast sizes. After all, you can have the population of a
good-sized city in one vast structure. It might lead to a sort of rebirth of
communalism, a mindset in which everyone knows their neighbors, and their
neighbors' neighbors.

That's just if you take into account massive buildings.

Cheap contragrav and power might create a limitless society. Everyone can
buy an aircraft, likely a relatively cheap one. No place is off limits on a
world with cheap CG. It's not as good as, say, instant personal
teleportation, but it's a sight better than what we have now.

Pack up the bags, load up the kids, fill the tank... *FWOOSH*

In a few hours, you're at grandma's, two thousand miles away. No need to
fuss with reserving or buying tickets... your Ling-Standard air/wagon will
work just fine.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:23:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
>Subject: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>
>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules 
>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred? 

  HG2, because I can rough out a design while answering the phone at work
or hooking up to the net at home, and finish it in another ten minutes.
Oh, and I can fight squadron actions in reasonable time frames...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:23:33 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML Stoppage

Ah! looks like my query reached the Digest threshhold. Back to deckplan 
stuff...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:39:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: History of the Imperium booklet

  If people are looking for the GDW 8 page History of the Imperium 
handout (CC0205/R2) then they might try ordering the Imperium board-
game (1990 version) from Titan Games! The handout is standard in that 
game (MSRP $24), and it's available for $8 from their sale items page,
or $15 (IIRC) from the main catalog. A great deal either way, IMHO.

>Misc. Science-Fiction Board Games 
>          Imperium (0205) [$8, N] 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:48:27 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

I dont know if I like FFS2 it has never been avilable here so I am stuck
with FFS1 which is versatile, and with a few bug fixes quite easy to use.

Brilliant Lances and Battlerider are both good and easy to play with
reasonable detail.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:48:29 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

Hope your battledress is not running on a battery. Extreme cold does amazing
things to batteries storage capacity.

If the suit is made of metal or metal composities how well does its
insulation hold up at extreme temperatures? Even if the occupant is
unaffected well extreme cold also has interesting effects on metals, and
plastics for that matter. After youve sprayed the suit with LHyd try hitting
it with something hot, even the non armour penetrating lasers should do or a
projectile. I would think their is a fair chance of the armour shattering,
any thoughts?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:48:25 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Slow Light

Cool, that means I can claim that I can travel faster than the speed
(actually velocity) of light! Also this means the space shuttle is FTL, now
on to the stars.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:50:38 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BED390.C70FB7C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In CT & MT the Jump Field was required while in jump space to prevent the
physics of that region from intruding into the ships interior. You could go
EVA but as the jump field was only 1 metre from the hull it could get very
tricky.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BED390.C70FB7C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D360032507-21071999>In CT &amp; =
MT the Jump=20
Field was required while in jump space to prevent the physics of that =
region=20
from intruding into the ships interior. You could go EVA but as the jump =
field=20
was only 1 metre from the hull it could get very=20
tricky.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BED390.C70FB7C0--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:18:29 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Self-Forging Warheads vs BD

David Larson wrote

> Has anyone thought about using self-forging warheads against battle 
> dress? I haven't seen any design rules that cover that sort of weapon 
> in FFS or Gurps.

	I don't know about Gurps, but "self-forging projectile" (SEFOP) 
	warheads are covered in FFS1 and they should also be found in 
	FFS2.

> Basically you're detonating a slab of explosives behind a curved metal 
> plate. The plate is transformed into a superhot jet of liquid metal 
> very similar to a HEAT tank round.

	As with HEAP, the metal projectile is "superplastic", not 
	"superhot".

> It should appear about TL7 and could be built from items the low-tech 
> (relatively) defenders should be able to find (i.e. doesn't take much 
> in the way of manufacturing facilities to build).

	For demonstration purposes I have build SEFOP charges using a 
	spoonful of pentrite and a metal coin. The only required 
	high-tech material is an explosive compound with sufficiently 
	high strike-wave velocity.

> If it didn't penetrate the battledress (or even kill the operator 
> through concussion), it'd definitely ruin his day.

	True. The secondary fragments formed by spall and spew effects 
	can kill the crew in an armored vehicle even if the hull was not 
	punctured. HESH (aka. "HEP") warheads are notorious for these 
	effects.

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> There's no serious advantage to SEFOP over a regular HEAT round for 
> purposes of killing battledress...

	The explosion-formed projectile is formed few meters ahead of 
	the target, so that the whole projectile is fully formed before 
	it hits the target. This action gives two advantages over 
	contact-ignited HEAP warhead.

	1) SEFOP does not require nose contact with the target. An 
	anti-armor missile can be guided over target so that it fires 
	one or more SEFOP warheads downwards during the overpass.

	2) SEFOP appears to be less affected by reactive armor than 
	HEAP.
	
	However these two advantages are more useful against an armored 
	vehicle than a battledress. Unless the BD is using reactive 
	plates, SEFOP and HEAP should have roughly similar effects.

- -- 
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:21:16 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics

>
>Popular Gravitics
>                 a magazine for the contragravity addict
>	     230-1100
>
>Greetings from Efate
>                    from the Editor
>
>I'm dictating this, appropiately enough, from the comfortably plush
>interior of a new Famille Spofulam _Prodigue_ luxury sedan, high above the
>bustling groundstreets of Atafu, a major city on Efate (Spinward Marches
>1705 - A646930-D). 

Just a quick note as to why our author would one would fly one of Famile
Spofulam's fine grav vehicles.

Efate is Law Level Zero, remember.

I figure two of Ditzie's Super Soakers linked up to a point-defense system
and half a dozen Rappoteurs on stub-wing pods is about right. Although I'm
thinking long and hard about a Circular PAW.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:15:36 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Slow Light

Antony Farrell wrote:

> Cool, that means I can claim that I can travel faster than the speed
> (actually velocity) of light! Also this means the space shuttle is FTL, now
> on to the stars.

Well, what this proves is that the speed of light varies depending on the
conditions that it is passing through.  So, if we presuppose that even space
has *some* effect on lightspeed (like maybe gravity affecting it), then
removing that influence might push the light speed limit higher.  That would
propagate down to the efficiency limit (where going past a certain percentage
of c becomes too inefficient). Which in turn would increase the top speed.

Of course you can do some screwy mathematical stuff as well due to the
hyperbolic nature of achieving light speed.  Say you're cruising along at a
good clip.  The energy required to get you closer to c becomes prohibitive.
Now you reduce c to below your current speed.  That puts your speed on the
other side of the c hyperbole. You accelerate a bit and put yourself on the
far side of the vacuum c hyberbolic arc and then shut down your c
decelerators.  After that, it takes less and less energy to go faster and
faster.  Breaking becomes problematic... well maybe not...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:58:58 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ancients Project (Grandfather, the unAging)

MR. Hostman writes:>
>Note that under CT, the droyne had their own psionics tables, with some
>abilities available at different levels. All psionics under CT were "index
>level of skill (which could not exceed PSR) on table to find out abilities
>granted by that skill." Aslan, Vargr, Humans (including Zhodani) all use
>the normal tables.

Agreed Droyne society is capable of doing some pretty freaky things given 
that their society has integrated psionic talent with technological 
development from the onset.  Which is probably the reason for 
passivity...why invent the telephone when I have this ringing in my head?  
The point being Grandfather even as psi extra-ordinare that he/she/it was 
could not still survive the whole 100 000 years of the Ancients period 
without some technological assistance.  Was that the catalyst then for 
technological heights for Grandfather and the rest of the Ancients - the 
quest for true immortial life?  Relying on the psi answer makes Grandfather 
and the rest of the Ancients a bunch of septic monks mediating on the 
mysteries of universe.  Relying on psi explanations for me is like relying 
on magic in other game systems.  There are those instances when the big mean 
nasty monster eats the spellcaster first.  Wht does the party do then?
Psi as it was originally concieved was to be the forbidden fruit.  Now, that 
the Droyne were expelled from the Garden and had to live with earthly 
deprevations makes them almost boring.  Psi ought to be used more wisely.  
In my campaign, I have alerted and strongly emphaised the Imperial sanction 
on psionics.  Voyages across into the Consulate have resulted in their 
awareness that Imperial rules are rigid and basically aimed at preserving 
the monopoly of knowledge in the Imperium.  My point is and I do have one.  
To explain everything away with either Science (the knowable) or Psi (the 
unknowable) is one of our society's axels.  Finding balance is essential.
I am aware what canon says.  But, to delve into the mysteries and secrets of 
the Ancients requires we move beyond canon.  Awareness alone, combined with 
all the agathic treatments in the universe could not keep an organism alive 
for the 300 000 plus years.

Hivers can't do it at all, and droyne have their own
>tables. Don't recall about K'Kree.... No other traveller editions have
>similar phenomena in the mechanics, and thus it doesn't fit the system
>mechanics as nicely. (altho in a TNE game, a player of a  droyne with
>awareness successfully agrued for DM+ PSR/2 on aging saves)
Its possible in GT, almost.  The life extension healing discipline can 
reduce
aging rate by a factor of about 50, given sufficient power or skill (roll vs
power+skill-10).  Only a minor extension from there to a full immortality.

I am glad that GURPS rules provide an explaination for immortality.  Let's 
hope its formula is safely locked away in some Ancient site less someone use 
it to become the next super race.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:46:51 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

SciFiFan56 writes:
>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat
>rules are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred? 

	I have only worked with Traveller Book 2 (of the LBB's) and 
	HG2, but I have to say that Book 2 seems to be underrated. 
	For ship design, it is limited (particularly for gearheads),
	but it is also simple. One trait that I like is that it is
	generaly easier (barely) to design small high-G ships than
	large ones. This makes much more sense than the HG2 rules
	that require the same proportion of tonnage to accelerate a
	500,000 ton ship at 2G as a 100 ton ship (the engine may 
	fit the HG2 formula, but I expect that the bracing would 
	not). That said, HG2 offers flexibility, variety, and TL
	efficiencies, so that's what I use for design (with a few
	tweaks). HG2 is good for large scale battles, but for 99.9%
	of the combat IMTU I use the Book 2 rules tweaked to cover
	HG2 systems. I find that it has a good "feel" and keeps the
	players involved.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:29:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics

At 10:21 PM 7/21/99 +1100, you wrote:

>I figure two of Ditzie's Super Soakers linked up to a point-defense system
>and half a dozen Rappoteurs on stub-wing pods is about right. Although I'm
>thinking long and hard about a Circular PAW.

Wouldn't you think long and hard about *linear* PAWs? <g,d,r>
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:05:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 1 (long)

neo@total.net wrote:
> 
All around me I can see floating buildings of every shape and
> size, most of them sensibly close to the ground, some tethered, but many
> hanging high overhead like diamondoid clouds. The skylanes snaking between
> them are dense with every manner of grav vehicle and, farther down, long
> swarms of commuters in gravbelts and gravsuits. Skylane and groundstreet
> alike are lined with huge aerial advertisements, a vast clutter of
> holographic display screens flashing exuberantly for attention.

Why do I have a sudden flash on 'Futurama'? ;-)
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:08:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

Antony Farrell writes:
> Hope your battledress is not running on a battery. Extreme cold does
> amazing things to batteries storage capacity.

The basic problem is that it takes a _lot_ of LHd to significantly cool down a battlesuit.  Getting 400 kilos of metal from room temperature down to freezing is going to require a minimum of several hundred liters of LHd, and given that the effects of hydrogen boiling off the suit will tend to drive away the cold hydrogen gas, probably more on the order of 2-3 cubic meters of LHd.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:15:15 -0400
From: neo@total.net
Subject: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

The Gravitic Revolution: a Quick Overview
                       by Henri-Darraanu Mushura

Can you imagine what life was like before contragrav? If you've lived on a
TL 7 planet, you don't have to imagine. All those tightly packed cities,
everything linked by paved streets and roads, the buildings huddled right
up against each other. This must have been what Terran cities were like in
the age before contragrav, so many centuries ago...
     Historians tell us that the Terrans acquired contragrav technology by
reverse-engineering captured Vilani ships during the 1st Interstellar War,
probably around IY-2407 (2114CE).  With the end of the war in -2404, the
technology became available to the general public. Civil gravitics hit
Terra like a near-overdose of adrenalin. The entire aerospace industry was
radically restructured, while a financial panic bankrupted many airlines,
aircraft manufacturers, and ground vehicle companies. Famous for its
groundcars, the nation of Detroit was particularly hard hit. Governments
had to scramble to write legal frameworks for the new technology. Meanwhile
the per-kilogram cost of reaching orbit dropped like a rock, triggering an
explosion of space development. Suddenly everybody and her sister could get
into orbit, cheap.
     Traffic-guiding roadgrids, already in place on city streets, were
extended into the air, making possible the civil gravitics revolution.
Without skygrid control, chaos would reign in the skies -- as it often does
on a number gridless frontier worlds where grav vehicles are allowed. (Most
planets that lack skygrids put strict limits on all flying vehicles over
urban areas, sometimes banning civil gravitics outright.)

_Contragrav Hits Home:_ When contragrav became widely available on Terra,
exurban growth exploded. The already-blurry definition between "rural" and
"urban" began to disappear, as commuters were no longer limited to crawling
along roads. With a gravcar in your garage, you might as well live 300
kilometers from your workplace, if the travel time was the same as before.
     Grav vehicles accellerated the trend toward urban decentralization
that had started with the invention of the internal-combustion engine, a
century and a half earlier. The groundcar created the suburbs, sucking
economic activity from the downtown cores, relocating capital to the new
Edge Cities. Contragrav renewed some central cores, making them easier to
reach. It also solved a surprisingly serious problem: finding places to
park. (Grav cars required no expensive parking structures, and could be
floated in parking zones, safe from vandals and thieves.) But the only
downtowns that survived were those that boasted unique cultural attractions
- -- arts centres, galleries, clubs, festivals, anything that could not be
found in the Edge Cities. Other central districts, already suffering from
urban decay and the effects of the automobile, collapsed completely,
becoming ghost towns and gang-plagued war-zones.
     Groundcars had also altered family life. They gave teenagers
unprecedented mobility, and transformed sexual mores by providing mobile
trysting-places. Like the roadgrid-controlled groundcars that preceded
them, grav vehicles did not require a driver, so teens no longer needed to
wait until legal driving age before asking for the car keys. Parents
quickly learned to order the car to pick up the kids at school, or drive
them to the mall. Soon millions of teens and children had complete
vehicular freedom, further stretching the already frayed family bonds of
that era. Laws were passed to ensure that kids below a certain age were
always accompanied by a responsible elder, but there was little agreement
on what that "certain age" should be. Even today, the minimum
solo-passenger age varies from world to world, sometimes as high as 14
years, often as low as 5. Yet these are among the most commonly abused laws
applying to gravitic travel. Whatever the local statutes say, sending the
car to pick up the kids is now a near-universal practice. As a result, kids
and teens on many Tech Level 10+ worlds tend to have far more autonomy than
those who live at lower Tech Levels.

_The Boom of Falling Borders:_ Economically, contragrav triggered one of
the greatest boom-times in history. World trade grew at an incredible rate
for nearly a century after the introduction of gravitic cargo shipping.
Poor nations, previously hamstrung by lack of seaports or adequate road
networks, were suddenly as accessible as any wealthy region. The boom
produced a wave of prosperity that helped mitigate some of the disastrous
after-effects of global warming, which had raised sea levels and left
billions of people homeless.
     With the cost of global travel dropping rapidly, tourism leapt to
unheard-of levels. Global Heritage Sites and ecologically sensitive
wilderness zones were threatened by trampling hoards of gawkers, until
stringent measures were taken. Popular destinations soon required bookings
years in advance.  Scenic parks and eco-preserves issued entry permits and
banned low-level overflights.
     Where ground vehicles had started to blur national boarders,
contragrav began to wipe the lines completely off the map. Together with
the global comm-net, gravitics helped create the world governments that
have been the norm on most planets ever since. The Imperium's official
language, Galanglic, has its roots in the period of linguistic and cultural
fusion that followed the Terran gravitic revolution. In reaction to the
cultural homogenization of Terra, numerous nationalist movements sprang up,
fighting for their cultural survival.  Many of these groups took advantage
of the newly inexpensive access to orbit, and founded "monocultural" space
habitats and, inevitably, far-ranging interstellar colonies.
     As a result of increasing global intermarriage, the height of the
average human grew by four centimetres in a period of only fifty years.
Meanwhile, grav ambulances and air-mobile medical facilities improved
medical care around the world. But global travel also created health
hazards: infectious diseases could spread more rapidly than ever before.
Deadly international outbreaks of filovirus, Honolulu flu, and prionic
paralysis were all linked to the widespread use of grav vehicles.
     Combined with instant media coverage of breaking news stories,
contragrav created the strange phenomenon known as "flashcrowds." A rapid
congregation of many thousands of people almost anywhere on the planet
could be triggered by the sighting of a reclusive celebrity, reports of
religious miracles, major accidents, natural disasters, or by any other
newsworthy event. A related phenomenon was the "flashtown," an unplanned
accretion of gravitic mobile homes and RV's. Flashtowns might attract tens
of thousands of grav-nomads, only to disperse within days or weeks.

_Into the Gravitic Age:_  With traffic filling up the skylanes, architects
and designers faced new challenges. Landing pads and garages appeared on
rooftops, while personal entrances and embarkation balconies became popular
features for high-rise apartments (especially after the introduction of
grav-belts). Large buildings required sensors, hazard lights, and comm
systems integrated with the local skygrid. New security measures became
necessary, to deal with gravbelted burglars. No longer safe from prying
eyes, high rise dwellers hid themselves behind reflective glass or
polarizing windows.
     Privacy issues also caused civil rights activists to decry the use of
skygrids for surveillance of the populace. Laws were enacted to control
government access to skygrid and roadgrid records, and to keep unscrupulous
companies from analysing the movements of consumers for marketing profile
purposes. Unfortunately, not every world has adopted such laws, so
travellers are cautioned to inquire about local privacy protections before
leaving any starport. Similar threats to privacy were posed by gravitic
surveillance devices, such as small and discreet camera drones. Activists
became concerned about the use of these drones by enforcement and security
agencies, not to mention nosy journalists and paparazzi.
     Almost as soon as civil contragrav was introduced, gravitic sports
were born. Grav racing, grav-aerobatics, and gravbelt skydiving were
instant sensations, and are still popular today. The arts were not far
behind in adopting the technology, with the development of gravsculpture,
aerial installations, and various forms of G-dance.
     Today, gravitics are so ubiquitous as to be nearly invisible. We can
only begin to appreciate the full impact of the gravitic revolution only by
spending time on some TL7-or-less backwater world. Roughing it can be quite
an adventure, living the way our ancestors did, driving groundstreets
without an autopilot, taking your life in your own hands every time you sit
behind the controls.
     But what a relief to get back home to the old gravcar, and take to the
skies once again!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:54:44 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

An excellent article! I forwarded it to my Traveller players, who aren't on this
list.

neo@total.net wrote:
> 
> along roads. With a gravcar in your garage, you might as well live 300
> kilometers from your workplace, if the travel time was the same as before.

Canonically, air/rafts are limited to 100kph (according to the LBBs, anyway). I
suggest changing this figure to 150 kilometers. But then, I'm in Calgary, where
45 minutes in rush hour gets me anywhere in the city.

> reach. It also solved a surprisingly serious problem: finding places to
> park. (Grav cars required no expensive parking structures, and could be
> floated in parking zones, safe from vandals and thieves.) But the only

Hmmm. A parking "lot" for air/rafts would have to be able to deal with air/rafts
that unexpectedly power down and crash. With groundcars, if you can't start the
car, you call a tow truck. Your neighbors in the parking lot aren't
inconvenienced. Imagine your air/raft, parked above 200 others, failing.

Also consider the effects of severe weather, especially winds. Sudden wind gales
may not be handled correctly by these stacks of cars, resulting in cars drifting
away, never to be seen again by their owners (unless the side of a building
conveniently interferes).

As for thieves, I wouldn't underestimate their ingenuity. With air/rafts worth
hundreds of thousands of credits at least (LBBs again), thieves will definitely
find a way to get to them. If the owner is able to either float up to his
air/raft, or call his air/raft down, a determined thief will be able to
accomplish both of these activities somehow.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:05:27 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat
rules
>>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred?


You're going to get a different answer from every single person you ask.
People who like HG will point out the advantages of being able to create any
size ship without heavy rulebook consultation and without a calculator.  The
more gearheaded of the TNE players will swear by Fire, Fusion and Steel, the
'equipment factory' book that allows virtually anything to be designed or
ballparked. Then the GURPS people will extol FFS2 with its pre-packaged
modular components and multi-tiered design systems.

Personally, well, it doesn't really matter what I personally prefer. You're
not me. Use whichever works for you.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:38:16 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

On Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:51 AM
Antony Farrell said,

> In CT & MT the Jump Field was required while in jump space to prevent the
physics of that region from
> intruding into the ships interior. You could go EVA but as the jump field
was only 1 metre from the
> hull it could get very tricky.

I seem to remember reading this somewhere but I can't remember where.  Do
you know where this is stated in any of the books?  Having the drive active
does explain why you can't perform jumpdrive maintenance during the weeks
journey.  That bothered me in my rational of the jump drive performing the
insert into jumpspace and then shutting down.

G.D.D.
======
"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And,
like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!"  -- George
Washington

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:59:29 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

>With a gravcar in your garage, you might as well live 300
>kilometers from your workplace, if the travel time was the same as before.

[snip nice article]


Yes, but ... aren't grav vehicles a little expensive for a "chicken in
every pot" distribution? IIRC, air/rafts are something like 100 kCr or more
a piece (and this in a society with an average yearly wage of 10 kCr).

Or do I mis-remember?

Either way, I'm Bruce with this article. It was very good. :-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:01:56 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>>From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
>>Subject: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>>
>>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules
>>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred?

Megatraveller, with minor modifications (especially errata inclusion).

Good level of detail, not too much, not too little.  Design system which,
when highly automated (with a spreadsheet for example) can produce designs
while I'm on the phone hashing out the design philosophy.  Wide TLs
accomodated (though not as many as I'd like, TL8-9 spaceships are pretty
hard to come up with, as are TL18+).

There's also a good proportion of published material consistent with the
design system.  The combat system can be used for combat between different
categories of craft (i.e. tank vs. starship, bicycle vs. dreadnought),
though its not perfect.

Drawbacks; Errors in published material.  Weapons are of fixed size,
generally, rather than being designable as in TNE's FF&S.  Combat system
for ships is not granular enough for me in terms of damage to
subassemblies.  The Science and Fiction are balanced, rather than being
"hard" science (reactionless thrusters and some other technologies being
objectionable to some from a hard SF standpoint, understandably).

As another poster said, there are many opinions.  None are really more
"correct" than others.

If I wanted ease of use, I'd use High Guard (and striker for vehicles!).
If I wanted miniscule details I'd use FF&S.  If I wanted to chuck
everything I knew about the Traveller Universe and start from near scratch,
I'd use GURPS (sorry, opinion came through there).  If I wanted starship
combat to be the focus, I'd adapt Starfleet Battles.  I would not use T5,
since I don't own FF&S2.

Viliani use High Guard because its traditional.

Solomani use T4 to conform to the latest standard.

Aslan use FF&S (TNE) since they can design everything the way they like it,
down to the trigger guard.

Hivers use Megatraveller so they can influence the designs from behind the
scenes by substituting different bug fixes.

Vargr use GURPS, wanna make something out of it?

Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #878
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 879



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

networked penguins
Re: On the nature of Jump Space 
Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)
re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Preferred system mechanics
Re Cooling Tech
Re: networked penguins
World building and GT ship building
Re: World building and GT ship building
re: Worldbuilding...
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Two Questions
Re: Tech
Re: Tech
Re: Slow Light
Re: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour
Re: Popular Gravitics
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Starports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:58:36 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: networked penguins

http://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Research/Mort/mort.html

Tying several threads into a knot here.  The on going penguin theads, 
general muleheaded gearheadedness, and the sporadic robot threads.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Meatspace" - The physical world (as opposed to the virtual world), also
"carbon community."
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:17:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:

>> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>> Wakko, Jakko and Dot.
>> They're knocking on the door...do you let them in? ;-)

>That's Yakko, Wakko, & Dot, ain't it??

Wakko Jakko and Bubbles. ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:15:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: hosing battle dress (was re: Battledress)

"Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> writes:


>The problem with firing liquified gases is that they evaporate very quickly
>on contact with air, warming quickly and forming a cloud of steam.

Gaseous Vapour, not steam (which is water).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:25:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

SciFiFan56@aol.com writes:

>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules
>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred?

Construction:

1) High Guard 2nd Edition (CT Bk 5)
2) QSDS 1.5 (using Rob Prior's Software)
3) GT (using Rob Prior's Software)

Dislikes -

1)FFS2 (bad layout and no real translation to game turns because IG never
got a starship combat system together - not the author's fault). Andy Akins
spreadsheet does make things easier.
2) MT (overly complicated compared to High Guard)

Combat

1) RPSCSv0.9 (on the Missouri Archive) coupled with T4.1
2) High Guard 2 (possibly with MayDay)
3) Battle Rider

but above all these is the mighty 2300AD Star Cruiser. Shame about the
buckets of Dice...

Dislikes -

1) The T4 system (a broken version of HG2)
2) Brilliant Lances - great in theory, but slooooooooooooooooooow.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:14:36 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

Antony Farrell writes:
>In CT & MT the Jump Field was required while in jump space to prevent the
>physics of that region from intruding into the ships interior. You could go
>EVA but as the jump field was only 1 metre from the hull it could get very
>tricky.

	Where does it cover this in CT? The first time that I heard of
	jump physics "intruding" into a ship's interior was here on the
	TML, but I haven't read every CT source (and I don't remember
	all that I have read :-). Just wondering.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:21:56 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

Thing writes:
<snipped>
>Having the drive active does explain why you can't perform jumpdrive
>maintenance during the weeks journey.  That bothered me in my rational of
>the jump drive performing the insert into jumpspace and then shutting >down.

	I have always assumed that one of the engineer's duties during
	the week in jumpspace is to perform maintainance on the jump
	drive (and the maneuver drive, and monitor the power plant, and
	repair sundry systems such as lights and doors, and monitor the
	life support systems, etc.). Annual overhaul is different, 
	requiring more time, personel, and equipment than is typically
	available to a ship in jump.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:21:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Preferred system mechanics

>From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
>Subject: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>
>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules
>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred?
>
For construction, I prefer Mega as expanded in Challenge (_Wet Navy_,
_Wood, Wind, Steam and Steel_) and Hard Times (Small Steps) . I don't mind
the idea of adding a surface area limitation ala FF&S, nor the additions of
flight and maintenance computers.

For combat, I use the MT personal combat system! (use the fire control
tables, and the stats as listed in the Player's manual). Personally, I find
this to be the most realistic (albeit also very close ranged) set-up.

I dislike TNE/FF&S1/BL's damage and armor rules.

I don't use T4 at all. If t5 is the patched T4 mark has been discussing, I
simply won't bother. FF&S2 has some nice stuff, but it is simply TOO
cumbersome a book to work with.

I don't particularly care for gurps except for fantasy or (modern horror).
GT is a good adaptation in and of itself, but is too far from my roots in
CT mechanically.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:25:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Cooling Tech

>Terry Carlino wrote :-
>> Unless you have the ability to convert heat to another form, say directly to
>> electricity and then store it for latter use. I know **we** can't do it. But
>> it's theoretically possible, and consistent with the other advances in
>> Traveller technology.
>
>Aren't you still going to have to radiate waste heat?
>Even if you manage to generate some electrical power from some of the
>waste heat, there will still be a heat load that needs disposal.
>
>The same principle applies to pumps ; or has thermodynamics gone to
>lunch (only ideal pumps are isentropic, and heat engines limited by the
>Carnot cycle)?

One small exception to increase of heat by adding energy: Laser Cooling
(which is how they are making bose-einstein condensates). Talk about like
imitating art....

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:18:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: networked penguins

At 03:58 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>http://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Research/Mort/mort.html
>
>Tying several threads into a knot here.  The on going penguin theads, 
>general muleheaded gearheadedness, and the sporadic robot threads.

Aiiieeee!!!!!!  I thought Furbies were bad, but *this*!!!

- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:53:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: World building and GT ship building

What are people's thoughts on world/system building rules.  Which are
preferred, including, perhaps, rules from non-Traveller systems? 

And as to GT ships, I can find no mention of fuel skimming rates in GT. 
Scoops are mentioned in the Ship Patron sidebar, but the ship building
section only talks about purifiers and their rates.  (I haven't given the
book microscopic examination yet, but sheesh, you'd think this sort of
information would feature in the ship building section rather prominently.
Errata?  2nd ed.?) 

One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
plume?  Hmm.

Michael

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:01:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: World building and GT ship building

Michael A Newman writes:
> What are people's thoughts on world/system building rules.  Which are
> preferred, including, perhaps, rules from non-Traveller systems? 
> 
> And as to GT ships, I can find no mention of fuel skimming rates in GT. 
> Scoops are mentioned in the Ship Patron sidebar, but the ship building
> section only talks about purifiers and their rates.  (I haven't given the
> book microscopic examination yet, but sheesh, you'd think this sort of
> information would feature in the ship building section rather prominently.
> Errata?  2nd ed.?) 

Its unclear.  However, a reasonable argument can be made for fuel skimming rate and fuel purification rates to be identical (a large part of 'fuel purification' is probably simply liquifying the hydrogen)
> 
> One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
> thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
> rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
> plume?  Hmm.

Because it looks cool?  Reactionless thrusters produce 'mysterious blue glow', of course.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:04:28 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Worldbuilding...

Michael Newman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
plume?  Hmm.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Easiest answer: there is a significant heat (or other energy) signature from 
use of the reactionless drives, it's beneficial to put them outside the ship
and direct them (the "nozzles") somewhat, it makes starport and other
close operations safer. Reference CT LBB Supp 9, Fighting Ships, reason
for the addition of panels to the Gig in the small craft section.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:11:35 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

On Wednesday, July 21, 1999 1:22 PM
Ian Ferguson said,

> 	I have always assumed that one of the engineer's duties during
> 	the week in jumpspace is to perform maintainance on the jump
> 	drive (and the maneuver drive, and monitor the power plant, and
> 	repair sundry systems such as lights and doors, and monitor the
> 	life support systems, etc.). Annual overhaul is different,
> 	requiring more time, personel, and equipment than is typically
> 	available to a ship in jump.

I assume you would do basic maintenance checks on the jump drive and monitor
that it was within tolerances.  I guess you could do allot of overhaul work
on the maneuver drive (Except where the systems might interact, poss. fuel
delivery & power?) and such as they would be shut down.  There is a
reference in the basic rules in CT & T4, in the area where you calculate
travel time, that says that although a jump takes ~1 Week most ships only
jump 1 every 2 weeks and spend the 2nd week doing cargo, shore-leave, and
maintenance on the jump drive.

G.D.D.
========
"I am a Millionaire. That is my religion." -- George Bernard Shaw

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:32:59 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>Dislikes -
>2) Brilliant Lances - great in theory, but slooooooooooooooooooow.


True, but it's quite good for roleplaying battles, when the times passes
slowly anyway and the players tend to be in a small ship.

One thing it may work really well for is PBEM battles. Pin it to the wall,
alter it over the course of a couple weeks..... The time factor really seems
to fade out.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:30:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two Questions

In mail you write:

> Regardin my suggetion which ran "How about high pressure hoses of salt
>>>water
>>>> with electric currents run through them to knock them down and
>>>possibly
>>>> short their circuitry?"
>
> I guess I was not clear in my question, the intent was for the high pressure
> hoses to provide knock down, the high amp alternating electric current was
> intended to screw with their circuitry.  Does anyone think that it would
> work?  Would a high amp capacitance discharge device, sort of like a super
> taser or even a super shock wand have any effect on battle dress either on
> its circuitry or the critter inside? 

The problem is that the suit will conduct the electricity *around* the
wearer, not thru the suit itself. The circuitry will be quite safe. If
you could run enough current, then you might be able to bake the
wearer. Except that you'll never conduct *that* sort of amperage via
water streams!

> doesn't equal stupid.   I ran the campaign segment twice, once with my
> regular group and then later for a game shop buddy's high school group.  I
> really was shocked when one teen asked how much should he lead a biplane
> with his laser rifle.   I said, "Well its a side on shot, the plane is
> moving relatively slow.  Think now, how fast is the projectile, i.e. the
> lazer beam, travelling relative to the target's velocity.   You should be
> able to figure it out for yourself."  I got a confused look in return and I
> then suggested, in jest, that a couple of millimeters ahead of the exact
> point on the plane he wanted to hit would do the trick.

I'd have explained in detail, after starting with "I'm only telling you
this because it's something your *character* would know..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:35:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech

In mail you write:

>>>>And heating and cooling loads are just astronomical. <snip>
>>>
>>> I thought we had already determined that trav ships have a heat problem
> and
>>> that they can dump heat efficiently (using near magical radiators) :-)
>
>>That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
>>heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
>>possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.
>>
>>To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
>>*below* room temp.
>
> Unless you have the ability to convert heat to another form, say directly to
> electricity and then store it for latter use. I know **we** can't do it. But
> it's theoretically possible, and consistent with the other advances in
> Traveller technology.

Sorry, but that's not even *theoretically* possible. "Heat" is high
entropy energy. Electricity is *low* entropy. The laws of
thermodynamics say that you can't produce low entropy from high
entropy.

What you *can* do is seperate a "system into a low entropy part and a
very high entropy part. But when you "sum" the entropies in question,
the result will be *bigger than what you started with. 

That's how a refrigerator works. It cools one area at the expense of
making another much, much hotter.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:39:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tech

In mail you write:

>>> >That's high level heat. You can run radiators red-hot to get rid of the
>>> >heat from the reactor and the like. We pretty much assume that it's
>>> >possible to thermally isolate such things from the rest of the ship.
>>> >
>>> >To cool off the life-system, you need to run *those* radiators at
>>> >*below* room temp.
>
> This isn't true.  You can radiate heat at a temperature higher
> than the thing you are cooling.  It is called a heat pump
> and it is how an air conditioner works.  (otherwise you
> could never cool anything below ambient temperature).

You can pump the heat from A into B. But you wind up with a lot *more*
heat than you started with. In fact, if you include the power source,
you *haven't* gained any ground.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:42:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Slow Light

In mail you write:

> Cool, that means I can claim that I can travel faster than the speed
> (actually velocity) of light! Also this means the space shuttle is FTL, now
> on to the stars.

Actually the "forbbden velocity" is the speed of light IN A VACUUM.
Since the speed you are talking about was in a *non*-vacuum, it doesn't
count.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:44:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour

In mail you write:

> From this week's _Sports Illustrated_:
>
> Jesper Parnevik, pro golfer, after finishing fifth at the Standard Life Loch 
> Lomond: "If you put a rope around the earth and measure it at 26,000 miles 
> and then put another rope three feet above the surface, how much longer is 
> that rope?  I missed a two-foot putt thinking about it and suddenly had a 
> four-footer for bogey."
>
> Nice to know even golfers are thinking about important things while earning 
> a living...just like us <grin>.

The answer to the question is ~26,000 miles, plus 6*pi feet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:10:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes:
>I figure two of Ditzie's Super Soakers linked up to a point-defense system
>and half a dozen Rappoteurs on stub-wing pods is about right. Although I'm
>thinking long and hard about a Circular PAW.

A Rappoteur or six, if fired together, would probably try and rip the stub
wings off!

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:16:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

"Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> writes:
>You're going to get a different answer from every single person you ask.
>People who like HG will point out the advantages of being able to create any
>size ship without heavy rulebook consultation and without a calculator.  The
>more gearheaded of the TNE players will swear by Fire, Fusion and Steel, the
>'equipment factory' book that allows virtually anything to be designed or
>ballparked.

That's true.

>Then the GURPS people will extol FFS2 with its pre-packaged
>modular components and multi-tiered design systems.

Nope, the T4.x/T5 people will extol FFS2, GURPS Gearheads use GURPS
Vehicles 2nd Ed, which is <shudder> in American (not even Imperial)
units.... Traveller is a metric game, and the thought of using American
units makes me feel really uncomfortable; I hope T5 doesn't abandon metric.


Dom

(Waiting for an *English* language version of GURPS with metric units)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:35:16 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>>>From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
>>>Subject: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>>>
>>>Query: Which version of the TRAVELLER starship construction and combat rules
>>>are preferred and why? Which are the least preferred?

Well, I use High Guard, because thats what I got! ;)
>
> Megatraveller, with minor modifications (especially errata inclusion).
>
> Good level of detail, not too much, not too little.  Design system which,
> when highly automated (with a spreadsheet for example) can produce designs
> while I'm on the phone hashing out the design philosophy.  Wide TLs
> accomodated (though not as many as I'd like, TL8-9 spaceships are pretty
> hard to come up with, as are TL18+).
>
> There's also a good proportion of published material consistent with the
> design system.  The combat system can be used for combat between different
> categories of craft (i.e. tank vs. starship, bicycle vs. dreadnought),
> though its not perfect.
>
> Drawbacks; Errors in published material.  Weapons are of fixed size,
> generally, rather than being designable as in TNE's FF&S.  Combat system
> for ships is not granular enough for me in terms of damage to
> subassemblies.  The Science and Fiction are balanced, rather than being
> "hard" science (reactionless thrusters and some other technologies being
> objectionable to some from a hard SF standpoint, understandably).
>
> As another poster said, there are many opinions.  None are really more
> "correct" than others.

Amen to that, as the old acronym goes, YTUMV. I was surprised to see so much
mixing of rules systems though, does this require lots of house rules type
tweaking? or are the various systems highly compliant? I only have CT and
love the systems open nature. Would other supplements from other systems
compliment High Guard? Which in the groups diverse opinions melds most
seemlessly with CT? I have already determined that GT First In is next on my
shopping list, what would be good to get for starships?
>
> If I wanted ease of use, I'd use High Guard (and striker for vehicles!).
> If I wanted miniscule details I'd use FF&S.  If I wanted to chuck
> everything I knew about the Traveller Universe and start from near scratch,
> I'd use GURPS (sorry, opinion came through there).  If I wanted starship
> combat to be the focus, I'd adapt Starfleet Battles.  I would not use T5,
> since I don't own FF&S2.

There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never heard of
Starfleet Battles, what is that?
>
> Viliani use High Guard because its traditional.
>
> Solomani use T4 to conform to the latest standard.
>
> Aslan use FF&S (TNE) since they can design everything the way they like it,
> down to the trigger guard.
>
> Hivers use Megatraveller so they can influence the designs from behind the
> scenes by substituting different bug fixes.
>
> Vargr use GURPS, wanna make something out of it?
>
Very amusing, but it also brings up an interesting point. How much does the
texture of an individual regions technology affect the design process? I
like the way CT handles the advance of tech and hull config modifiers, could
a system like that handle variable construction systems? Just debate bait.
;)
BZA
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:41:42 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

In a message dated 7/21/99 6:21:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

<< 
 Nope, the T4.x/T5 people will extol FFS2, GURPS Gearheads use GURPS
 Vehicles 2nd Ed, which is <shudder> in American (not even Imperial)
 units.... Traveller is a metric game, and the thought of using American
 units makes me feel really uncomfortable; I hope T5 doesn't abandon metric.
  >>

	Even as an American who uses American units for everyday things, I've 
got to agree.  Traveller is and always has been metric, and it just feels 
wrong in GT when American units are used instead of metric.
	Also, although I like T4/T5, I didn't really like FFS2, I thought MT 
was much clearer and manageable.

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:45:25 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

Sorry for not making myself clearerer. I meant using the station as a
guide for other, smaller high ports. There are rough plans and a decent
write up in that book that could be used in any star system.

Actually I think that the description of OMS Andrew Carnegie in
Nyotekundu Source book is much more detailed. There definitely are more
maps in this book. 

The biggest problem I have with the 2300 stuff is that the designs are
done with out garvitic technology. THis makes the ok for lower tech
stuff, but badly "dates" them in the OTU. 


SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
> 
> >What about Arcturus Station, from "Murder on Arcturus Station". Would
> >this be concidered say a C or B typr highport?
> 
> With the downport on the star? ;-)
> 
> Probably a good one to use as an example, or the Arcturus station from
> T2300AD would be another good one.
> 
> Dom
> 
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
> "In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
> Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
>   see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
>                   Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
> Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #879
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 21 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 880



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: World building and GT ship building
Re: World building and GT ship building
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: networked penguins
Light Speed
Jump Fields
Plumes
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
Design Sequence Variations
RE: Plumes
Re: Plumes
Re: networked penguins 
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2
Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:54:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour

Leonard Erickson writes:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > From this week's _Sports Illustrated_:
> >
> > Jesper Parnevik, pro golfer, after finishing fifth at the Standard Life
> > Loch  Lomond: "If you put a rope around the earth and measure it at
> > 26,000 miles  and then put another rope three feet above the surface, how
> > much longer is  that rope?  I missed a two-foot putt thinking about it and
> > suddenly had a  four-footer for bogey."

> The answer to the question is ~26,000 miles, plus 6*pi feet.

Nope, the answer to that question is 6*pi feet.  Reread the question.
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:20:22 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>>Then the GURPS people will extol FFS2 with its pre-packaged
>>modular components and multi-tiered design systems.
>
>Nope, the T4.x/T5 people will extol FFS2, GURPS Gearheads use GURPS
>Vehicles 2nd Ed, which is <shudder> in American (not even Imperial)


Whoops - missed.

Okay, guess which system I don't use....

NB

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:23:41 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never heard of
>Starfleet Battles, what is that?


It's a very old (and VERY complex) game by Amarillo Design Bureau, used to
be marketted through Task Force Games. It's based on the original series
Star Trek with some modifications and the focus is very heavily detailed
tactical ship combat. You can;t design ships, but there are some 800
available and the combat is so complex you don't need to. Personally, I love
the game. Rules-haters tend to loathe it - it takes up about two feet on a
bookshelf.

Nick

>Very amusing, but it also brings up an interesting point. How much does the
>texture of an individual regions technology affect the design process? I
>like the way CT handles the advance of tech and hull config modifiers,
could
>a system like that handle variable construction systems? Just debate bait.


FFS doesn't - yet.  There's a TNE-RCES gearhead project underway to solve
this.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:51:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:15:15 -0400, neo@total.net

>Can you imagine what life was like before contragrav? If you've lived on a
>TL 7 planet, you don't have to imagine. All those tightly packed cities,
>everything linked by paved streets and roads, the buildings huddled right
>up against each other.

Note: it isn't the lack of contragrav that makes  buildings close
together.  If anything, you need more space between them for ground
vehicle access.  With contragrav, the distance between buildings
will be dictated by light and space considerations only.

>_Contragrav Hits Home:_ When contragrav became widely available on Terra,
>exurban growth exploded. The already-blurry definition between "rural" and
>"urban" began to disappear, as commuters were no longer limited to crawling
>along roads. With a gravcar in your garage, you might as well live 300
>kilometers from your workplace, if the travel time was the same as before.
>     Grav vehicles accellerated the trend toward urban decentralization
>that had started with the invention of the internal-combustion engine, a
>century and a half earlier. The groundcar created the suburbs, sucking
>economic activity from the downtown cores, relocating capital to the new
>Edge Cities.

I think this is unlikely too.  There is still going to be limited
space for individual cars, even over 3D.  We already have cities
that have commuter traffic by several factors, contragrav isn't
going to change that.

>Contragrav renewed some central cores, making them easier to
>reach. It also solved a surprisingly serious problem: finding places to
>park. (Grav cars required no expensive parking structures, and could be
>floated in parking zones, safe from vandals and thieves.)

If the commuter can reach the car to get it back, so can a thief.
(Remember, history teaches that if you think you have a scheme to
render a crime impossible, odds are you are wrong).  They will
also be vulnerable to bad weather, bird crap, etc. (not to mention
the inconvenience of getting up to them.  Nor is
the cost of construction the main issue on parking garages, it is
the space they use.

[I didn't have time for the rest, it looked OK.  I guess I don't see
gravitics as being so much a revolution as an evolution.]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:09:26 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

On 22 Jul, Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:
> >There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never
> > heard of Starfleet Battles, what is that?


> It's a very old (and VERY complex) game by Amarillo Design Bureau,
> used to be marketted through Task Force Games. It's based on the
> original series Star Trek with some modifications and the focus
> is very heavily detailed tactical ship combat. You can;t design
> ships, but there are some 800 available and the combat is so
> complex you don't need to. Personally, I love the game.
> Rules-haters tend to loathe it - it takes up about two feet on a
> bookshelf.

IMHO:

It also has nothing to do with Traveller (sub-second turns, FTL combat
speeds, none of the weapons are the same and neither Newton nor Einstein
had any influence over the movement system).

However, it is fundamentally a very simple system.

What makes it complex is that each new race had their own technologies
with their own special rules and instead of leaving huge gaps in the
rules, the designers tried to cover everything.

Oh and then they added rules for stuff that doesn't need to be there
(eg boarding actions taking less than 1 centisecond) that open up
major problems (if I have a bomb I can transport in front of you,
why can't I put it inside your ship instead of a squad of marines?)

I used to think it was a good game. Now I just think that there's
a good game in there somewhere... unfortunately, I think that game
is a World War I naval game. :-]

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:18:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: World building and GT ship building

>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:53:08 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>

>And as to GT ships, I can find no mention of fuel skimming rates in GT.
>Scoops are mentioned in the Ship Patron sidebar, but the ship building
>section only talks about purifiers and their rates.

Just assume that a scoop module can keep a purifier busy....

> (I haven't given the
>book microscopic examination yet, but sheesh, you'd think this sort of
>information would feature in the ship building section rather prominently.
>Errata?  2nd ed.?)

It would be worth sending in as errata...

>One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
>thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
>rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
>plume?  Hmm.

Just because they are reactionless, doesn't mean they don't
have an exhaust in the direction of thrust.  It just means
the exhuast isn't the direct cause of the thrust.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:39:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: World building and GT ship building

At 05:18 PM 7/21/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
>>thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
>>rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
>>plume?  Hmm.
>
>Just because they are reactionless, doesn't mean they don't
>have an exhaust in the direction of thrust.  It just means
>the exhuast isn't the direct cause of the thrust.

Several canon and DGP-canon sources have thrusters producing large amounts
of heat and light.  Hence the big nozzeloids on the rear ends of ships.
Best source: Starship Operator's Manual, Vol. 1.

- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:39:15 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

>What would a character see if they
>looked out a window or went EVA during jump?

I suppose that if you could find someone who's EVA'd in jumpspace and was
still **sane** you could ask.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:26:43 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

> From: "Peter H. Brenton" 
> Vargr use GURPS, wanna make something out of it?

Sorry, is someone asking what _rules_ Vargr _prefer_?  I would have thought
the answer would be obvious - every referee has their own, and players who
don't like them find a new ref.

Droyne, on the other hand, design their ships by selecting components
randomly.  Mysteriously, it always fits together.....

The Darrians haven't designed a ship since 1980, but they were TL 16.  (But
there were no rules for TL 16 ships then....)

Geonee use ships someone else designed, long long ago.

Serious answer:  I actually very rarely design ships, or run space combats
that get beyond free-form chases, and a shot across the bows.  If I do, I
use HG2.  I've always intended to play some Mayday, with funky missiles and
stuff, but I've never quite got round to it.

I do have a plan to do some serious designing in the future, to create some
Imperial Naval ships from the Civil War (TL D, mostly).  These will mainly
be cut down versions of the ships in Supplement 9:  Fighting Ships, which
are mainly TL F.  This Supplement is interesting, since it's actually still
the best resource for Imperial Naval vessels we have, as Shattered Ships of
the Fighting Imperium sucked bigtime.

Supplement 9 is an HG2 book, so my Civil War ships will end up as HG2
designs, which is fine by me.

Preference and logic reinforce themselves, in this case.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:10:53 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: networked penguins

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 03:58 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >http://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Research/Mort/mort.html
> >
> >Tying several threads into a knot here.  The on going penguin theads,
> >general muleheaded gearheadedness, and the sporadic robot threads.
> 
> Aiiieeee!!!!!!  I thought Furbies were bad, but *this*!!!

At least it's running Linux.

I wonder whether it can recognize Bud Ice....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Light Speed

>
>> Cool, that means I can claim that I can travel faster than the speed
>> (actually velocity) of light! Also this means the space shuttle is FTL, now
>> on to the stars.
>
>Well, what this proves is that the speed of light varies depending on the
>conditions that it is passing through.  So, if we presuppose that even space
>has *some* effect on lightspeed (like maybe gravity affecting it), then
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sure enough does... it bends the course of light. Which is how gravity
lensing occurs. Not a bloody great effect, but it is known (and artificial
gravity is used under FF&S to attain the ranges allowed under BL/FF&S1, by
using gravitic lensing to narrow the beam).

>removing that influence might push the light speed limit higher.  That would
>propagate down to the efficiency limit (where going past a certain percentage
>of c becomes too inefficient). Which in turn would increase the top speed.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Jump Fields

>Antony Farrell writes:
>>In CT & MT the Jump Field was required while in jump space to prevent the
>>physics of that region from intruding into the ships interior. You could go
>>EVA but as the jump field was only 1 metre from the hull it could get very
>>tricky.
>
>	Where does it cover this in CT? The first time that I heard of
>	jump physics "intruding" into a ship's interior was here on the
>	TML, but I haven't read every CT source (and I don't remember
>	all that I have read :-). Just wondering.
>
>Peez

Actually, I remember it being explicitly mentioned in Snapshot (a Traveller
Boardgame).

IIRC, it is also mentioned in _The Traveller Adventure_.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:51:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Plumes

>
>One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
>thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
>rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
>plume?  Hmm.
>
>Michael

I've generally explained it as Fusion byproduct, illuminated by the
cerenkov radiation from the T-Plates. And, to explain the high fuel rates
under CT, I xplained it as used lots of surplus as a coolant for all the
various drives.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:53:42 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

I remember reading an article in the Digest which focused on grav vehicles.  
It developed several points which would indicate that grav vehicles would be 
both relatively common and affordable.

1)  They use solid state technology and advanced materials that result in a 
long life coupled with low maintenance.  Where modern cars tend to hang in 
there for ten years or so, barring a wreck most grav vehicles are good for 
several times that long, with century old vehicles being not uncommon.

2)  The 100K figure cited in the original books was the price for a "loaded" 
version obtimised for frontier use.  Smaller, more basic vehicles could be 
obtained for less.

3)  As a side effect of the long life of grav vehicles, it is likely that a 
thriving market would arise in used vehicles.  As is the case today, used 
equals less expensive, but probably very functional.

4)  Last, the economic effect.  If a vehicle will probably function for 
decades, lenders will be glad to extend payment periods proprtionally, in 
return for a security interest in the vehicle.  Grav vehicles were described 
as often being financed with terms similar to modern mortgages, over twenty 
or thirty years where required.

As a point in the finances, I'm currently driving a Mazda Miata.  I'm gladly 
paying about $22000 spread over six years and will get a vehicle with an 
expected life of about ten years, twenty with heavy maintenance.  If I could 
get a vehicle costing five times as much, but likely to be usable for five 
times as long PLUS all the advantages that gravitics would give, I'd be 
foolish not to make the financial commitment to obtain one.  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:59:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Design Sequence Variations

>Very amusing, but it also brings up an interesting point. How much does the
>texture of an individual regions technology affect the design process? I
>like the way CT handles the advance of tech and hull config modifiers, could
>a system like that handle variable construction systems? Just debate bait.
>;)
>BZA
>////////////////////////////////////////

Well, we know from CT that a K'Kree "stateroom" is some 25 Td, and that
Droyne Staterooms are half size.

Under Striker/CT Zhodani frequently rely upon fewer sensors, but use
clairavoyance trained armor officers.

Under MT, admitedly from DGP's S&A, Solomani avoid grav vehicles,
preferring GEV , Wheeled, and tracked for most purposes.

Aslan designs tend to have rounded, flowing exterior curves and poems
artistically presented, but effectively standard.

Hivers (based upon the CT alien module) tend to use lots of computerized
and remote vehicles.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:22:23 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Plumes

'Cause it looks cool?
<d,r,c!!>

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of William F.
> Hostman
> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 6:52 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Plumes
> 
> 
> >
> >One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
> >thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
> >rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
> >plume?  Hmm.
> >
> >Michael
> 
> I've generally explained it as Fusion byproduct, illuminated by the
> cerenkov radiation from the T-Plates. And, to explain the high fuel rates
> under CT, I xplained it as used lots of surplus as a coolant for all the
> various drives.
> 
> William F. Hostman
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis 
http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:28:25 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Plumes

> One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with 
> reactionless thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations 
> show us ships with rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like 
> rear ends, some with exhaust plume?  Hmm.


In my game the term "reactionless" is a misnomer.  While they 
are able to nudge a ship along w/o releasing any exhaust, the 
secret of the drive is that it makes traditional "thrusters" have 
several orders of magnitude more effect than our current laws 
of physics would allow.  Physics impaired handwave?  You bet.  
Over the suspension of belief threshold?  Nah....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:42:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: networked penguins 

> At 03:58 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >http://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Research/Mort/mort.html
> >
> >Tying several threads into a knot here.  The on going penguin theads, 
> >general muleheaded gearheadedness, and the sporadic robot threads.
> 
> Aiiieeee!!!!!!  I thought Furbies were bad, but *this*!!!

Oh, come on, Doug, it's *ONLY* a penguin.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:20:14 -0400
From: neo@total.net
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2

Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com> sez,

>An excellent article! I forwarded it to my Traveller players, who aren't
>on this
>list.

Thanks!

>neo@total.net wrote:
>>
>> along roads. With a gravcar in your garage, you might as well live 300
>> kilometers from your workplace, if the travel time was the same as before.
>
>Canonically, air/rafts are limited to 100kph (according to the LBBs,
>anyway). I
>suggest changing this figure to 150 kilometers. But then, I'm in Calgary,
>where
>45 minutes in rush hour gets me anywhere in the city.

Ah, but an air/raft is an open-topped cow of a vehicle. Just about any
enclosed grav vehicle can do better than that, while a luxury gravcar such
as Greg Porter's Rolen Politesse (CSC, pg 86) does 745kph unloaded, 668 kph
fully loaded. Of course, your neighbours are likely to complain about the
constant sonic booms ;)

>> reach. It also solved a surprisingly serious problem: finding places to
>> park. (Grav cars required no expensive parking structures, and could be
>> floated in parking zones, safe from vandals and thieves.) But the only
>
>Hmmm. A parking "lot" for air/rafts would have to be able to deal with
>air/rafts
>that unexpectedly power down and crash.  With groundcars, if you can't
>start the
>car, you call a tow truck. Your neighbors in the parking lot aren't
>inconvenienced. Imagine your air/raft, parked above 200 others, failing.

Not half as serious a problem as grav vehicles that unexpectedly power down
and crash *while in flight*. Presumably their systems are redundant enough,
and fault-tolerant enough, not to do this.

>Also consider the effects of severe weather, especially winds. Sudden wind
>gales
>may not be handled correctly by these stacks of cars, resulting in cars
>drifting
>away, never to be seen again by their owners (unless the side of a building
>conveniently interferes).

I suspect that sudden gales of wind are nothing compared to the forces a
*flying* grav vehicle has to compensate for. In any case, a parking zone
might have tethers for the vehicles (a provide backup power if necessary).
Alternatively, instead of parking, cars could be left to fly around in
holding patterns, at least where skygrids are in use, returning to their
owners when called for. In a city such as Atafu (described in part 1 of my
article), a large portion of the sky traffic might consist of *empty*
vehicles, flying 'round and 'round the "block", waiting for their owners to
need them again. Thanks to tiny fusion plants, such weirdness is probably
commonplace.

Mind you, parking space is only a problem in high-density cities, and most
TL10+ cities in the Imperium would be extremely spread out uber-suburbs, as
I began to sketch out in Part 2.  Atafu is only high-density because the
atmosphere outside the tent is tainted.

>As for thieves, I wouldn't underestimate their ingenuity. With air/rafts worth
>hundreds of thousands of credits at least (LBBs again), thieves will
>definitely
>find a way to get to them. If the owner is able to either float up to his
>air/raft, or call his air/raft down, a determined thief will be able to
>accomplish both of these activities somehow.

Where the skygrid and roadgrid control all the vehicles, stealing a car
would indeed require a lot of ingenuity. I wouldn't say it's impossible,
but besides spoofing the car's security system, they'd have to somehow hide
their tracks, i.e. the skygrid's tracking data.

Still, put some unscrupulous PCs on the job, and I'm sure a method would be
found :)

Best,

 + GMG +

               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
           now in hardcover from Tor Books

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:53:39 -0400
From: neo@total.net
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> sez,

>There'd be new theories in planning and growing cities. New problems in
>governing cities of vast sizes. After all, you can have the population of a
>good-sized city in one vast structure. It might lead to a sort of rebirth of
>communalism, a mindset in which everyone knows their neighbors, and their
>neighbors' neighbors.

You *could* build a city as one vast structure, but you probably wouldn't
want to. You'd only do it if local conditions required -- such as vacuum
worlds, or other hostile environments. I suspect that a rebirth of
communalism might be necessary *before* megastructure cities got built at
all, rather than being a consequence of them.

Cities tend to grow haphazardly and piecemeal -- a suburb development here,
a transport project there; they evolve and grow over time, by necessity.
Building a whole city all at once seems unlikely to me. Centrally-planned
cities such as Brasilia have been total disasters because cities are really
complex organisms.

Of course, given the number of people living in hostile conditions in the
Traveller universe, these are challenges that Imperial Megacorporations
have probably evolved solutions for. Major colonization projects might
involve the construction of very large structures all at once.

Which means a good number of Imperial citizens are living in vacuum-sealed
equivalents of Brasilia. Scary thought.

 + GMG +


               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net>
   "How come if we can send a man to the Moon, we can't
             send a man to the Moon anymore?"
           --Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:48:09 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

> 2)  The 100K figure cited in the original books was the price
> for a "loaded" version obtimised for frontier use. Smaller,
> more basic vehicles could be obtained for less.

Hmm, let's see. From the Traveller Book:
- --------
Air/Raft (Open topped, TTL 8!): kCr 600

From MT Imperial Encyclopedia:
- --------
TTL 15 open-top air/raft: kCr 275
TTL 15 enclosed air/raft: kCr 389

From DGP's 101 Vehicles:
- --------
TTL 12 Casline G-Tube (described as "essentially an enclosed
   grav belt for two"): kCr 342
TTL 12 Trasea grav bike: kCr 171.6
TTL 13 Wanderer air bus: kCr 997.6
TTL 13 Planet Hopper grav sedan: MCr 2.6334
TTL 15 Hegira Enclosed air/raft: kCr 389

From TNE:
- --------
TTL 10 air/raft (open): kCr 146.602
TTL 12 enclosed air/raft: kCr 267.754
TTL 15 grav bike: kCr 63

Alas, I have no T4 items, except for a 102 Vehicles by Robert Prior:
- --------
TTL 15 Arden aircar: kCr 37.4
TTL 15 Econobox aircar: kCr 3.168

From GT:
- --------
GTL 12 air/raft, open topped: kCr 55.16

The prices have seemed to have dropped dramatically as Traveller has gone
through its various iterations. If 102 Vehicles is any sign, gravitic
vehicles have gotten downright inexpensive.

So I suppose it depends on what version of the Traveller universe you play
in. ;-)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #880
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 881



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Is this related to the Y2K meltdown?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Preferred system mechanics
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
Lasers
Tag lines
Re:Popular Gravitics
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Re:Popular Gravitics
RE: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
RE: Slow Light
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Aging of vehicle designs
RE: Tag lines
Re: networked penguins 
Re: networked penguins 
Re: Speaking of Ancients 
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2
website
Re: Aging of vehicle designs
Re: Speaking of Ancients 
re: Speaking of Ancients
Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:49:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
...
>units.... Traveller is a metric game, and the thought of using American
>units makes me feel really uncomfortable; I hope T5 doesn't abandon metric.

  Now there's a marketing advantage wrt grognards - "real" Traveller is 
metric? :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:00:57 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Is this related to the Y2K meltdown?

My colleague Joe Russell sent me the following, which I submit for your
consideration.  He didn't cite the source, and I haven't followed up on
it.  

- --Glenn
 
> A NUCLEAR accelerator designed to replicate the Big Bang is under
> investigation by international physicists because of fears that it
> might cause "perturbations of the universe" that could destroy the
> Earth. One theory even suggests that it could create a black hole.
> 
> Brookhaven National Laboratories (BNL), one of the American
> government's foremost research bodies, has spent eight years building
> its Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) on Long Island in New York
> state. A successful test-firing was held on Friday and the first
> nuclear collisions will take place in the autumn, building up to full
> power around the time of the millennium.
> 
> Last week, however, John Marburger, Brookhaven's director, set up a
> committee of physicists to investigate whether the project could go
> disastrously wrong. It followed warnings by other physicists that
> there was a tiny but real risk that the machine, the most powerful of
> its kind in the world, had the power to create "strangelets" - a new
> type of matter made up of sub-atomic particles called "strange
> quarks".
> 
> The committee is to examine the possibility that, once formed,
> strangelets might start an uncontrollable chain reaction that could
> convert anything they touched into more strange matter. The committee
> will also consider an alternative, although less likely, possibility
> that the colliding particles could achieve such a high density that
> they would form a mini black hole. In space, black holes are believed
> to generate intense gravitational fields that suck in all surrounding
> matter. The creation of one on Earth could be disastrous.
> 
> Professor Bob Jaffe, director of the Centre for Theoretical Physics
> at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who is on the
> committee, said he believed the risk was tiny but could not be ruled
> out. "There have been fears that strange matter could alter the
> structure of anything nearby. The risk is exceedingly small but the
> probability of something unusual happening is not zero."
> 
> Construction of the 350m RHIC machine started eight years ago and is
> almost complete. On Friday scientists sent the first beam of
> particles around the machine - but without attempting any collisions.
> 
> Inside the collider, atoms of gold will be stripped of their outer
> electrons and pumped into one of two 2.4-mile circular tubes where
> powerful magnets will accelerate them to 99.9% of the speed of light.
> 
> The ions in the two tubes will travel in opposite directions to
> increase the power of the collisions. When they smash into each
> other, at one of several intersections between the tubes, they will
> generate minuscule fireballs of superdense matter with temperatures
> of about a trillion degrees - 10,000 times hotter than the sun. Such
> conditions are thought not to have existed - except possibly in the
> heart of some dense stars - since the Big Bang that formed the
> universe between 12 billion and 15 billion years ago.
> 
> Under such conditions atomic nuclei "evaporate" into a plasma of even
> smaller particles called quarks and gluons. Theoretical and
> experimental evidence predicts that such a plasma would then emit a
> shower of other, different particles as it cooled down.
> 
> Among the particles predicted to appear during this cooling are
> strange quarks. These have been detected in other accelerators but
> always attached to other particles. RHIC, the most powerful such
> machine yet built, has the ability to create solitary strange quarks
> for the first time since the universe began.
> 
> BNL confirmed that there had been discussion over the possibility of
> "perturbations in the universe". Thomas Ludlam, associate project
> director of RHIC, said that the committee would hold its first
> meeting shortly.
> 
> John Nelson, professor of nuclear physics at Birmingham University
> who is leading the British scientific team at RHIC, said the chances
> of an accident were infinitesimally small - but Brookhaven had a duty
> to assess them. "The big question is whether the planet will
> disappear in the twinkling of an eye. It is astonishingly unlikely
> that there is any risk - but I could not prove it," he said.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:18:34 +0000
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

On Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:49:52 -0700 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson) writes:
>>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>>Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>...
>>units.... Traveller is a metric game, and the thought of using 
>American
>>units makes me feel really uncomfortable; I hope T5 doesn't abandon 
>metric.
>

Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
gallon.


Bradley Houston
tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:26:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Preferred system mechanics

Hello,
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
>Subject: Preferred system mechanics
...
>For combat, I use the MT personal combat system! (use the fire control
>tables, and the stats as listed in the Player's manual). Personally, I find
>this to be the most realistic (albeit also very close ranged) set-up.

  How so "very close ranged"? Does it diverge that substantially from Striker
wrt determining hits?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:27:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

>From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
>Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space
...
>I seem to remember reading this somewhere but I can't remember where.  Do
>you know where this is stated in any of the books?  Having the drive active
>does explain why you can't perform jumpdrive maintenance during the weeks
>journey.  That bothered me in my rational of the jump drive performing the
>insert into jumpspace and then shutting down.

  Also, at least under HG2, if the J-drive requires constant input of 
250MW (=1 EP) per 100 Dt per J-number throughout Jump then there's no
real opportunity for weaselling a ship that doesn't require a power
plant rated at least equal to the J-drive rating.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:27:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>
>On 22 Jul, Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:
>> >There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never
>> > heard of Starfleet Battles, what is that?
...
>I used to think it was a good game. Now I just think that there's
>a good game in there somewhere... unfortunately, I think that game
>is a World War I naval game. :-]

  No, that's Starfire - SFB is some kind of jet warfare game...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:26:37 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

"Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> typed:

>> 2)  The 100K figure cited in the original books was the price
>> for a "loaded" version obtimised for frontier use. Smaller,
>> more basic vehicles could be obtained for less.
>
>Hmm, let's see. From the Traveller Book:
>

<various editions' examples snipped>

>The prices have seemed to have dropped dramatically as Traveller has gone
>through its various iterations. If 102 Vehicles is any sign, gravitic
>vehicles have gotten downright inexpensive.
>
>So I suppose it depends on what version of the Traveller universe you play
>in. ;-)

 True. The great powerplant revolution that happened between MT and TNE
has something to do with that.  One thing to note about the examples you list
is the capabilities. The CT vanilla Air/Raft was slow and had a rather limited
range. By comparison the MT models were mostly much faster and longer
ranged. None of the MT vehicle designers ever went back and matched the
original that I know of...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:46:59 +1000
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Lasers

I'm going to have a problem describing how ship's turret lasers work to my
players. I hope someone on the TML with more knowledge of these systems can help
me. It comes about because of some of the KKM discussion about two weeks ago.

My problem is this:
Someone posted that missiles could not be shielded from point defense laser fire
because both reflective and ablative shielding reacts *explosively* when hit by
a point defense laser. I understand this, and I don't have a problem with this
part.

However, the same person later on said that point defense lasers could engage
multiple targets (without taking time to move the turret to line them up)
because it used a targeting mirror system.
Now - this - I have a problem with. Why doesn't the targeting mirror (like the
shielding) react explosively to the beam? Just what is the mirror supposed to be
made of?

Now; I know that artificial gravity can be used to focus a laser beam, but can
someone tell me if it can be used to REFLECT the beam? Is that possible? If so,
could it be used as a targeting mirror for a laser, or does this open up another
can of worms. Your thoughts are welcome.
______________________________________________________
Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
These are a few of my favorite things.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:16:28 +1000
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Tag lines

Ooops - forgot to credit my tag line. It actually came from the TML a few months
back. Thanks to - you know who you are. Sorry I'd give your names but I can't
find my old digests.

Anyway, how do you like my additions:

Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
These are a few of my favourite things.

When the Zho's strike; or marines land;
When it hits the fan:
I simply reload all my favourite things
and then I get fightin' mad.

Anyone like to add a verse or two to this?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:54:04 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re:Popular Gravitics

>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

A while ago I posted the Gosling class air/raft, which was built under FFS2
at TL6/9. It had pretty basic electronics, and came in at about KCr 35. It
had an alcohol IC engine, with a battery/solar array option.

Unfortunatly I lost the design when my hard drive crashed. Could some nice
person pull it out of an archive and re-post it (hint).

Most of the designs in published sources are horribly gold-plated. Annual
income in the Traveller universe is KCr 8-20 depending on TL and stuff, so
a KCr 200 grav car just isnt going to be a consumer item.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:15:29 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

At 22:27 21/07/1999 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>>Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>>
>>On 22 Jul, Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never
>>> > heard of Starfleet Battles, what is that?
>...
>>I used to think it was a good game. Now I just think that there's
>>a good game in there somewhere... unfortunately, I think that game
>>is a World War I naval game. :-]
>
>  No, that's Starfire - SFB is some kind of jet warfare game...

I'm not convinced. Hits on jets don't slowly degrade capability.
Also, if I lose my port side weapons and port side shield, the
inability to correct this by half rolling seems like a naval ship
problem (most naval ships can't half roll and keep fighting;-)

Actually, the rules total lack of consideration for inertia makes
them unsuitable for sea, air or space. They're probably most accurate
for land movement (although having the brakes come on automatically
when you take your foot off the accelerator is a bit odd).

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:21:39 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Re:Popular Gravitics

From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re:Popular Gravitics

>A while ago I posted the Gosling class air/raft, which was built under FFS2
>at TL6/9. It had pretty basic electronics, and came in at about KCr 35. It
>had an alcohol IC engine, with a battery/solar array option.


    OK, so basicly, you had an Air/Raft built on a TL9 world, that was just
a frame & drive units, & then it would be shipped off to a TL6 world for the
rest of the stuff?

>Most of the designs in published sources are horribly gold-plated. Annual
>income in the Traveller universe is KCr 8-20 depending on TL and stuff, so
>a KCr 200 grav car just isnt going to be a consumer item.


    Ian the way I see it, at TL9, an air/raft should cost 200 KCr, as it is
new technology & only the rich can afford them, but at TL10 it should cost
50 KCr & the middle class can afford them, as the technology is more stable
& more people are building them.  By TL11 or TL12 they should cost around 20
KCr & most people have them.  Then by TL15, they should cost around 5 KCr
each.  Note, this is assumming that you are building them to the TL9
standard, if at TL11 or TL12 you build it at TL11 or TL12 standards, it
should cost 200 KCr.
    The reason I say this, is that as technology gets older & older, it
costs less & less.  Look at the Groundcar.  When it first came out at TL5,
only the rich & powerful could own one, but today at TL7 or TL8, almost
anyone can buy a ground car.  So it makes sense to me that the same thing
wil happen with Air/Rafts.  As the Technology gets older & more stable &
understood, the price will come down for them.
    The same thing should happen with Ships.  Say at TL9 a Free Trader will
cost you 37 MCr.  At TL11 or 12, it should cost around 3.7 MCr, & by TL15,
it should cost about 1 MCr.  As the technology gets older, more people will
also start to do it, & as more people do it, the output will increase, as
output increases the price goes down.  Also, at TL15, a TL9 Ship is not a
big deal.  If were going to by a TL15 Free Trader, it should cost you 37
MCr.
    I know this is not a canon idea, but it works IMTU.

>Ian Whitchurch


Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:06:42 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

I look forward to seeing the result of the gearhead project. Especially as
since the Fighting Ships supplement mentioned that the Plankwell was built
using a different method to other battleships.

Has anyone done a TNE conversion for the Fer-De-Lance class destroyer
escort? If so I would like to get hold of them.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:06:41 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Slow Light

Ah but, who said space was a vacuum. It isnt, though the average particle
density is very low. Then there are also the denser regions, dust clouds
etc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:06:38 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

Actually thinking more about it the active jump field it was best described
in the DGP Starship Operator's Manual, Vol. 1 supplement, it was canon at
the time. This is when the Lanthanum jump grid on the hull appeared, though
I believe it vanished again later. Though it was mentioned in a number of CT
products I think Snapshot was one of them.

Hence that old joke which has all the Traveller starships racing for port
due to the announcement of an imminent rule change. The poor old Kinunir
class certainly had problems with this!

Also if you are still using hull jump grids note that it appears that for
the week in jump space they are blue-white (rather hot) which would also
make EVA rather more hazardous than usual.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:38:47 -0700
From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
Subject: Aging of vehicle designs

Another possible discussion thread based on something I do.

Do your vehicle designs age? Or are the designs static over the course of
many years. Is that TL12 air/raft that your neighbor just bought *really*
the same as the TL12 air/raft you just aquired (but was built 50 years ago)?

Plans for a given vehicle/ship/weapon system ought to *age* over time; the
design should become better with time, even if the last design change was
only aesthetic or comfort based. Options change; what was standard a few
years ago may go out of style or be replaced by something perceived as
better.

When you design you next ship, keep your first design iteration (unless it
*really* stinks) and call it your intial production model. Go through a few
iterations and keep another upgrade to the existing model. Change a few
components, switch a few options around. Your Scout/Courier really shouldn't
be the same as the one next you on the apron (exterior excepting).

What happens if you need a part that went out of favor a few years back? Is
it available? Back order for *how* long? There are a few adventure nuggets
with that idea. What happens when information media changes format. I can't
beleive that the OTU has been using the same media formats all through the
Imperium. Doesn't work that way IMTU. Don't let it get unwieldy or keep the
players from having fun, but some character frustrations can be a good
thing.

David Larson
davidlarson@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:08:06 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Tag lines

I dont know about adding a few lines but I think you risk being prosecuted
for crimes against sentience with this.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 04:50:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: networked penguins 

At 11:42 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> At 03:58 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >http://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Research/Mort/mort.html
>> >
>> >Tying several threads into a knot here.  The on going penguin theads, 
>> >general muleheaded gearheadedness, and the sporadic robot threads.
>> 
>> Aiiieeee!!!!!!  I thought Furbies were bad, but *this*!!!
>
>Oh, come on, Doug, it's *ONLY* a penguin.

First the Blair Witch Project, now penguins (whimper).  A few weeks ago, I
had a family on the van who had several Furbies. The damn things kept
"hearing" my radio, and trying to talk to it, which would set them all off.
 After ten minutes of this (I'm kind of hard of hearing, and when I hear
murmuring behind me I assume it's a guest trying to tell me something) I
stopped the van and ordered the bloody little things either turned off or
put away in bags.  You'd have thought that I ordered them to skin kittens.

ObTrav: "Novelties" has always been one of those nebulous trade items.
Give a Free Trader a load of 80 tons of Furbyoids, and find out that they
get activated by the energizing of the jump field.  Now these are TL-15
toys, so they'll be clever (shades of _Small Soldiers_...)
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:06:08 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: networked penguins 

> At 11:42 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >> At 03:58 PM 7/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >> >http://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Research/Mort/mort.html
> >> >
> >> >Tying several threads into a knot here.  The on going penguin theads, 
> >> >general muleheaded gearheadedness, and the sporadic robot threads.
> >> 
> >> Aiiieeee!!!!!!  I thought Furbies were bad, but *this*!!!
> >
> >Oh, come on, Doug, it's *ONLY* a penguin.
> 
> First the Blair Witch Project, now penguins (whimper).  A few weeks ago, I
> had a family on the van who had several Furbies. The damn things kept
> "hearing" my radio, and trying to talk to it, which would set them all off.
>  After ten minutes of this (I'm kind of hard of hearing, and when I hear
> murmuring behind me I assume it's a guest trying to tell me something) I
> stopped the van and ordered the bloody little things either turned off or
> put away in bags.  You'd have thought that I ordered them to skin kittens.

I can imagine.  People tend to think furbies are almost human.  Course, some 
of the 'people' I know (and I use the term 'people' loosely here...), I'd say 
they're *more* human.
 
> ObTrav: "Novelties" has always been one of those nebulous trade items.
> Give a Free Trader a load of 80 tons of Furbyoids, and find out that they
> get activated by the energizing of the jump field.  Now these are TL-15
> toys, so they'll be clever (shades of _Small Soldiers_...)

Truly evil, Doug.  *TRULY* evil.  I'm proud of you.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:15:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients 

> Thinking of Grandfather's immortality brought to mind a question.  Where do
> anagathics come from?  Some Imperial research program?  Ancient technology?
> Or is Grandfather leaking some immortality juice (In a weekend form) into
> the Imperium to adjust some variables.

IIRC, Grandfather's immortality is due to a psionic talent of his ("Awareness") at high level.  He's maxxed out as a psi.

My question is, if Grandfather was at TL35+ at the time of the Final War (300,000 years ago), what TL is he at *now*?  Can he just mutter a magic word and make us all disappear or something?  Would we recognise his current bunch of artifacts *as* artifacts?  *COULD* we recognise them as artifacts?

Consider:  Take a transistor.  Strip off its case and clip the leads.  Now hand it to an engineer with TL4 or TL5 technology at his disposal.  Remember, he's never *seen* a transistor, and barely knows much electronics theory.  For all intents and purposes, our low tech engineer is holding a piece of fused sand.  Would he recognise it as a device?  Not likely.  To him, it's just a piece of sand that got melted together somehow.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:02:15 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2

KenRoney writes:
<snipped>
>3)  As a side effect of the long life of grav vehicles, it is likely that
>a thriving market would arise in used vehicles.  As is the case today,
>used equals less expensive, but probably very functional.

	This is certainly true, but if grav vehicles have much longer 
	useful lives than current ground cars, then used grav vehicles
	will not be discounted as much either.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:10:28 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: website

	I've added one 'new' item to my site from Megatraveller, Imperial 
Naval handbook (Inh_12a.htm), I've also added a link that disappeared 
somehow, races in known space (racelist.htm). Hopefully the links work from 
the index page.

members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/index

I've heard there are some broken links, but I didn't see any at a glance, but 
if there are any please tell me (sometimes AOL loses the files, so....).

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:37:28 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Aging of vehicle designs

>From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
>
>Plans for a given vehicle/ship/weapon system ought to *age* over >time; the 
>design should become better with time, even if the last >design change was 
>only aesthetic or comfort based. Options change;

Good point, controls may be easier to use, gauge placement improved, 8-way 
adjustable electric seats instead of 6-way adjustable in the earlier models. 
  That 8-track player in your 40 year old air raft may not do you any good 
if you can't find any 8-tracks to play.

PZ


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:52:04 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients 

Pasted from previous message :
- -------------------------------------
My question is, if Grandfather was at TL35+ at the time of the Final War
(300,000 years ago), what TL is he at *now*?  Can he just mutter a magic
word and make us all disappear or something?  Would we recognise his current
bunch of artifacts *as* artifacts?  *COULD* we recognise them as artifacts?
- ------------------------------------

Beyond a certain tech level, you'd have to be able to alter reality/universe
on a macroscopic level.  Tech level ceases to be of use as to a gauge of
know-how.  Grandfather already knows how to pinch off tiny universes.  The
next step is to create his own or re-create the one he was born in.

Realistically speaking, I think that by the time we have reached the tech
level needed for an average Traveller universe, human beings would have
self-evolved into something much different and no longer needing a lot of
the things they'd need if still human.

What is Grandfather up to?  He's most likely gotten bored with creating
pocket universes and has evolved himself ont a higher plain of existence.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:47:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Speaking of Ancients

Jory Earl wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What is Grandfather up to?  He's most likely gotten bored with creating
pocket universes and has evolved himself ont a higher plain of existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Worse, he may have discovered that such an evolution is impossible.
Maybe such a realization is the reason why so many ancient gods
are thought of as insane, or at least lead mere mortals to madness.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:12:06 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)

neo@total.net wrote:
> 

> 
> You *could* build a city as one vast structure, but you probably wouldn't
> want to. You'd only do it if local conditions required -- such as vacuum
> worlds, or other hostile environments. I suspect that a rebirth of
> communalism might be necessary *before* megastructure cities got built at
> all, rather than being a consequence of them.

The Vilani have lived such a communalist lifestyle for millenia, so I
suspect that arcologies are common in Vilani or Vilani influenced
worlds. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #881
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 882



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)
Re: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour
I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!
Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!
RE: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour
Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)
Battle Poems
Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Starports
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)
RE: Plumes
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric! 
Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Aging of vehicle designs
RE: Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)
Re: Tag Lines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:19:18 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics (was: Enclosed Bays)

>The Vilani have lived such a communalist lifestyle for millenia, so I
>suspect that arcologies are common in Vilani or Vilani influenced
>worlds.


    On HIPop worlds, I think the arcology idea would be a popular one, on
anyworld, not just Vilani worlds.  As for MedPop, MedTL worlds, again I
think that the arcology would also be used.  And, the 3I would use it to
house its civil servents.

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:43:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour

- --- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:

> > The answer to the question is ~26,000 miles, plus 6*pi feet.
> 
> Nope, the answer to that question is 6*pi feet.  Reread the question.

Yup. 18.84955588 feet. Or there abouts.

Terry

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:44:05 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!

16 Cups to the Gallon.

Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm 
Pilot to figure that out.

Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
           You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!

Mark Urbin writes:
> 16 Cups to the Gallon.
> 
> Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm 
> Pilot to figure that out.
> 
> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)

It's not.  Its 28.35.  I know cups to a gallon by a simple case:
2 cups to a pint
2 pints to a quart
4 quarts to a gallon

Now, how many teaspoons to a gallon? ;)
A
N
S
W
E
R

B
E
L
O
W

3 teaspoons to a tablespoon, 2 tablespoons to a fluid ounce, 8 ounces to a cup
768 teaspoons.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:02:45 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour

On Wednesday, July 21, 1999 3:55 PM
Anthony Jackson said,

> > The answer to the question is ~26,000 miles, plus 6*pi feet.
>
> Nope, the answer to that question is 6*pi feet.  Reread the question.

Actually you are both wrong.  The earth isn't a circle, it's real lumpy. ;)

Anyhow.  To truly answer such a question requires a research grant funding
my team for at least 4 years. (At the end of which we will consult Worldbook
and guess at the answer.)

G.D.D.
======
"Look, there are just two kinds of music -- it's good or it's crap. That's
why Mozart and Bach last and why you can forget the Monkees and the Union
Gap. There's already a bit less spice in the Spice Girls, eh? But Louis
Armstrong, Muddy Waters, Chuck Berry -- in 200 years their music will still
be played."-KEITH RICHARDS.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:07:06 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)

>>Yes, but only great for reading. I will have to read the books again and put
>>my mind to a solution that is not a mere handwave. They are fantastic
>>aliens, and I would like to bring them "out" into the rest of the universe.
>>Except that they would make it a Motie Universe. Maybe they could be
>>contained in an isolated cluster?
>
>Give them a couple of worlds jump-7 from the nearerst human star, and
>fortify that system up the wazoo.

Problem would be that the moties would/could not be contained that way, as 
misjumps could get them out of the secure area and give them a chance to
hide away and multiply...

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:13:51 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Battle Poems

A friend of mine (Jochen Stutz, stut5001@uni-trier.de) continued these:

> >Ooops - forgot to credit my tag line. It actually came from the TML a
few
> months
> >back. Thanks to - you know who you are. Sorry I'd give your names but I
can't
> >find my old digests.
> >
> >Anyway, how do you like my additions:
> >
> >Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
> >Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
> >Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
> >These are a few of my favourite things.
> >
> >When the Zho's strike; or marines land;
> >When it hits the fan:
> >I simply reload all my favourite things
> >and then I get fightin' mad.

Hot lead from my barrel,
Will soon end this quarrel,
Peace has always been my foe,
Just send me another Zoh.

Aslan may be strong and mean,
I like their furs nice and clean,
So give me now my bayonet,
I need a blanket for my bed.

Those Hivers think they're smart,
But their warfare is a boring fart,
We'll teach them how to die,
In a blink of their sixt eye.



Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:00:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

"Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> writes:
>>2) Brilliant Lances - great in theory, but slooooooooooooooooooow.
>True, but it's quite good for roleplaying battles, when the times passes
>slowly anyway and the players tend to be in a small ship.

Most of my players run a mile when they see a hex map in an RPG .....

>One thing it may work really well for is PBEM battles. Pin it to the wall,
>alter it over the course of a couple weeks..... The time factor really seems
>to fade out.

That sounds quite a cool idea - I saw something a while ago doing something
similar (a cut down version of 2300's star cruiser, run as a PBEM fighting
the Kafer war).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:04:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

AveNelso@aol.com writes:
>	Even as an American who uses American units for everyday things, I've
>got to agree.  Traveller is and always has been metric, and it just feels
>wrong in GT when American units are used instead of metric.
>	Also, although I like T4/T5, I didn't really like FFS2, I thought MT
>was much clearer and manageable.

I would like a HG like system in T5. YMMV.

My thoughts on metric are influenced by being born post-metrification here
in the UK. Only real items left now are miles (fuel is now sold in litres),
and feet and inches for height.

Older people may vary ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:08:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> writes:

>Sorry for not making myself clearerer. I meant using the station as a
>guide for other, smaller high ports. There are rough plans and a decent
>write up in that book that could be used in any star system.
>
>Actually I think that the description of OMS Andrew Carnegie in
>Nyotekundu Source book is much more detailed. There definitely are more
>maps in this book.
>
>The biggest problem I have with the 2300 stuff is that the designs are
>done with out garvitic technology. THis makes the ok for lower tech
>stuff, but badly "dates" them in the OTU.

Nick Munn (some list Great Old Ones will remember him) did a ballpark
design for Ton Vorn, the Sylean orbital city which is huge! Although Grav
Tech was possible, as it probably started pre-TL12, we discussed and
decided to base it on rotational pseudo-grav, with some newer parts grav
plated. The assumption was that people would be more secure with a familar
technology. If you get a power outage it would cause massive problems...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:22:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

brhoust@juno.com writes:
>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
>gallon.

But they're a bastardisation of the original English (imperial) system with
different sizes eg gallon.

And I don't like either ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:20:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2 (long)

 "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> writes:
>The prices have seemed to have dropped dramatically as Traveller has gone
>through its various iterations. If 102 Vehicles is any sign, gravitic
>vehicles have gotten downright inexpensive.

T4 Central Supply Catalog p.63 has a note that Grav Vehicles are an order
of magnitude smaller in that edition because:

1) Fusion+ gives smaller, cheaper, more effective power plants.
2) Contragrav (MT Antigrav) is cheaper.

It suggests multiplying the cost of vehicles by 10 to give an old style
Traveller feel.

It also says p.65 that the visible blue-white effect (glow) from thrusters
and contragrav is a result of 'gravitic decay byproducts'.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:13:51 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Plumes

 "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> writes:

M>> >One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
>> >thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
>> >rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
>> >plume?  Hmm.

>'Cause it looks cool?
><d,r,c!!>

Nah... two words.

STAR WARS.

or, alternatively the

MILLENNIUM FALCON

Dom ;-)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:39:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
...
>>  No, that's Starfire - SFB is some kind of jet warfare game...
>
>I'm not convinced. Hits on jets don't slowly degrade capability.

  Ok, so they're _slow_ jets and speed 8 drones recreate the abilities
of highly trained kamikaze pigeons...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:46:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric! 

> 16 Cups to the Gallon.

Being an Old Fart has its advantages.  Fortunately, I *also* know metric.

> Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm 
> Pilot to figure that out.

Munchkin.
 
> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)

You rilly oughta quit smokin' that stuff...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:51:56 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)

Walt Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Worse, he may have discovered that such an evolution is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>impossible.
Maybe such a realization is the reason why so many ancient gods
are thought of as insane, or at least lead mere mortals to madness.
   I think this insanity theory is bang on.  One should not discount that 
Grandfather maybe was a little mad to begin with (certainly by Droyne) 
standards.  Therefore, after trying for milennia to escape this prison 
(madness) he created has consigned himself to remorse and not to play 
demigod.  Which leads us back to the form that Grandfather assumes.  A 
corporeal form leads to madness...a non-coporeal form is impossible.  Hence, 
my invention a stored form.  As a being who will have mastered psionic 
talent with technology surely he has transfered a part of his Self into a 
machine enity.  At same time, senses and ventures out into the universe 
every so often.  Or it could be an experiment in Antimatter flows has 
transformed him into an Antimatter being not allowing him to escape his 
pocket universe.  I know, it has been done before.
  As to idea of what TL is grandfather is now...mistake is to see science as 
an abstract activity that an individual comes up with science, I believe 
with others, science is a social phenomena.  Where are Grandfather's peers, 
not servants?  I eluded that in Grandfather's time there were beings more 
advanced than the Ancients.  Where have they gone?  Perhaps, they are 
amongst us and we do not know it.  My theory is that they reside beyond 
Charted Space.  The Solomani may yet bring something nasty back when they 
have emarked on their Persus missions.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:23:11 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>What makes it complex is that each new race had their own technologies
>with their own special rules and instead of leaving huge gaps in the
>rules, the designers tried to cover everything.

<SNIP>

Yeah, I agree most of makes little sense. The timing is way out of whack,
and the physics....well, let's just leave the physics well alone. But it was
never billed as a game with any pretence at realism. It was based on Star
Trek, the show where the definition of physics is "any three long words
containing the syllable 'phase' that save the ship and explain the plot", so
I suppose that was inevitable.

But I think it's kinda fun. If I want realism and hard science then I'll
play Brilliant Lances. Maybe even without gravity focussing.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:37:34 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>I look forward to seeing the result of the gearhead project. Especially as
>since the Fighting Ships supplement mentioned that the Plankwell was built
>using a different method to other battleships.
>
>Has anyone done a TNE conversion for the Fer-De-Lance class destroyer
>escort? If so I would like to get hold of them.


None that I know of, but I don't have the CT stats. If anyone posts them to
me, I'd be only too happy to work up a conversion. (Too much time on my
hands).

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:09:29 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Query: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>"Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> writes:
>>>2) Brilliant Lances - great in theory, but slooooooooooooooooooow.
>>True, but it's quite good for roleplaying battles, when the times passes
>>slowly anyway and the players tend to be in a small ship.
>
>Most of my players run a mile when they see a hex map in an RPG .....


Nah, you don't let them near the hexmap (you think I'd let a *player* touch
my beloved maps?). They each roleplay out their positions, (if the captain's
a PC and you're feeling nice you can let him move his counter) but you, the
GM, transfer everything from RP terms into board terms. Consider the hexmap
a 'tactical sensor display'.

Well, it works for me. YMMV, of course.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:19:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> >I look forward to seeing the result of the gearhead project. Especially as
> >since the Fighting Ships supplement mentioned that the Plankwell was built
> >using a different method to other battleships.
> >
> >Has anyone done a TNE conversion for the Fer-De-Lance class destroyer
> >escort? If so I would like to get hold of them.
> 
> 
> None that I know of, but I don't have the CT stats. If anyone posts them to
> me, I'd be only too happy to work up a conversion. (Too much time on my
> hands).

DE-A4469J2-000000-50003-0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons
BBearing          3   4                   TL15
Batterues         3   4                Crew=14
Pass=0. Cargo-0. Fuel=490. EP=90. Agility=6. Troops=0. Two cutters

Basically, 4 officers, 10 ratings.  J4, 6G, P9.  Mod 9/fib, 10 hardpoints
(6 tiple lasers, 4 triple missiles), onboard scoops & purification.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:25:54 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

I've designed using all of them except G:T. I'm a fairly visual person, so a 
design is generally not "complete" without a picture and/or deckplan of some 
sort. For those who have not tried, deckplans take far longer than the number 
crunching of design. This is why there are relatively few Gearheads who do 
them. A simple spreadsheet or design program will allow several variations of 
a design in a hour or less, while a week might be needed to produce one 
useable set of plans.
 On the design side, I tend to work up a spreadsheet to aid in calculations 
for whatever system I'm using, but I like to have the book(s) open in front 
of me to do actual design work. Thus, even in this CAD era, I'm still 
sensitive about a well laid out book and easy to use rules. My preferences 
are thus HG, MT, FF&S1, and QSDS, not necessarily in that order. I'll use 
FF&S2, SSDS, BL or Book 2 if I need to for a particular project, but I prefer 
not. Given my current needs, QSDS fleshed out to TL15 and with masses added, 
and more of the "you don't know anything so we'll tell you" type of text 
added would be ideal.
 As for layout (if Marc is listening) put the tables either in the text (like 
Book 2 or QSDS) or cluster them like High Guard: In the CENTER of their 
appropriate text section. A book like FF&S2 should have had three or four 
table clusters (Starships/grav, aircraft, watercraft, ground/grav). A third 
option requires (gasp) small print: the integrated table and text of MT; 
Basics and color were at the beginning, then a heavily annotated table for 
each step of the process.  Make FF&S2 and SSDS look like that (without the 
typos) and you need do nothing else for T5 design...

(stepping off the soapbox)
GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:34:21 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

brhoust writes:
>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
>gallon.

	Yes and no. Although inches, gallons, et al. did not start
	in the USA, the US Gallon did. This is all a plot to confuse
	Canadians who tried to learn US Gallons, Imperial Gallons,
	and Litres all at the same time %(

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:46:10 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Aging of vehicle designs

Paul Zumstein writes:
>Good point, controls may be easier to use, gauge placement improved, 8-way 
>adjustable electric seats instead of 6-way adjustable in the earlier
>models. 
<snipped>

	Don't forget plain old trends in fashion. Even if the Air/Raft
	you just purchased at Bob's New Floaters is functionally 
	identical to the decade-old model that your grouchy neighbour 
	drives, it may look quite different.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:42:58 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)

On Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:52 AM
Boris Cibic said,

>    I think this insanity theory is bang on.  One should not discount that
> Grandfather maybe was a little mad to begin with (certainly by Droyne)
> standards.  Therefore, after trying for milennia to escape this prison
> (madness) he created has consigned himself to remorse and not to play
> demigod.
<snippage>
> Or it could be an experiment in Antimatter flows has
> transformed him into an Antimatter being not allowing him to escape his
> pocket universe.

Ah, like Omega of Doctor Who fame.  I was thinking that if Grandfather was
making pocket universes, and playing with some of the theoretical constants
such as time and what not, he probably constructed himself a universe that
allows him to more power of manipulation.  He could have constructed a
universe where magic like manipulations are possible, or one favorable to
existing as a being of pure energy.  If he did such a thing, much of the
technology that he has developed in his universe might be incapable of
functioning in our universe.  Indeed, grandfather himself might be incapable
of existing in the normal universe anymore.  The realization that millennia
of research is as good for not in the normal universe could cause him to
snap.  Then again maybe grandfather can leave his universe by remote
controlling or telepresencing a drone/host in our universe.  He might be
able to use his technology in this way also.  A device that is nothing more
than a transmitter/receiver drawing on power from a pocket universe with
favorable physics and broadcasting the effects into ours.

Then again, perhaps the Imperium is a large (or seemingly so) "pocket
universe" of Grandfathers.  Maybe it is set up so that we will research  the
Empress Wave which is really a representation of something in the "real"
universe that worries Grandfather.  That or the Emperium is a weapons
research tank for grandfather so he set up different races and the right
factors for conflict.  Add in a dash of heavily devastated worlds hinting at
ancient weapons of even greater technology to give people the idea/incentive
to find/re-create/invent them.

Enough of my rambling for now.

G.D.D.
=======
Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -- Bertrand
Russell

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:10:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Tag Lines

Crimes against sentience at the least.  Here's a list of my least favorite
things:

Pools of blood
Bits of bone
Flashing red and blue lights
Sirens
Pressure bandages
Sutures
X-ray machines
Casts
Orthopedic pins and screws
Syringes
Scalpels
Surgical gowns and masks
IV lines
The stink of shit, piss, fear-sweat, and vomit
Crying relatives in the waiting room
Caskets
Involuntary screams and moans
Ventilators
EKGs
Bovies
Clamps
Staples
Resections
Excisions
Bypasses
Debridements
Not being able to pay enough attention to other public health problems

Anyone care to add to this list?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #882
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 883



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Metric & stuff
Re: T4 char generator
Re: Metric & stuff
Ancients Project
Space:1889 the Television series...
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:16:11 -0700
Re: Tag Lines
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Gosling class air-raft (was re:popular gravitics)
Re: Tag Lines
Re: Ancients Project
Fer-de-Lance Class DE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:41:35 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Metric & stuff

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> taps out between hits.
 >> 16 Cups to the Gallon.
 >Being an Old Fart has its advantages.  Fortunately, I *also* know metric.

There is being old and knowing useless trivia.  Such as how many feet to 
the rod.

 >> Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm
 >> Pilot to figure that out.
 >Munchkin.

     No, the correct term here is "Geek."  I said nothing about wanting to 
run a Ninja character in a campaign set in Renaissance Italy and focusing 
on political intrigue and inter-citystate warfare.

 >> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)
 >You rilly oughta quit smokin' that stuff...

Well, we know where you spent your youth. :-)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:54:11 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: T4 char generator

Hi guys sorry to bother you again, Thursday or Friday I posted
a request asking to be guided to a PC based T4 Char Generator
and then somehow got myself droped from the list. If there were any
responses could you repost them .

Thanks
Dave ( who was starting to worry about how quiet the TML was)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:02:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Metric & stuff

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
>  >> Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm
>  >> Pilot to figure that out.
>  >Munchkin.
> 
>      No, the correct term here is "Geek."  I said nothing about wanting to
> run a Ninja character in a campaign set in Renaissance Italy and focusing
> on political intrigue and inter-citystate warfare.

You forgot the true Munchkin part of that: '...while wearing TL-17
battledress with an FGMP-16 in each hand.'

>  >> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)
>  >You rilly oughta quit smokin' that stuff...
> 
> Well, we know where you spent your youth. :-)

_MIS_-spent youth. Many of us OF's worked damn hard to add that 'mis-'
part, thankyouverymuch! ;->

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:17:46 PDT
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ancients Project

Thing wrote:
>Ah, like Omega of Doctor Who fame.
By George, I think he has got it.  I never claimed it was an original 
concept.  Although, I meant as a passing remark <smile>.  If not antimatter 
what is the source of his woe?
>I was thinking that if Grandfather was
>making pocket universes, and playing with some of the theoretical 
> >constants
>such as time and what not,
Time waits for no man or whatever Grandfather is.  Preventing the flow of 
time is impossible.  Could see how the Ancients and others could concievely 
go back in Time but would agree not do so.  As such a power would endanger 
their existance.  I know someone has said time paradoxes are rubbish but let 
us say they exist in the game universe.
>he probably constructed himself a universe that
>allows him to more power of manipulation.  He could have constructed >a 
>universe where magic like manipulations are possible, or one >favorable to
>existing as a being of pure energy.
Let's stay away from magic, shall we?  In terms of transforming into pure 
energy that thread has some pull.  But, what then is the tragedy of 
Grandfather?  You see, I want to make Grandfather subject to the fates not 
ommipotent.  Grandfather is long-lived (not truly immortal) but he has to 
have a flaw.
>If he did such a thing, much of the
>technology that he has developed in his universe might be incapable >of 
>functioning in our universe.  Indeed, grandfather himself might be 
>incapable
>of existing in the normal universe anymore.  The realization that 
> >millennia of research is as good for not in the normal universe >could 
>cause him to snap.
Or a little bonkers.  Technology however should not the end point.  Where do 
start philosophy?  Being is...
That is what Grandfather realizes, he is a prisoner of his own creation.  
Again, I harken you back to Faust.  Grandfather is not the demigod of the 
Traveller universe (despite some attempts to make him such).  He is a being, 
who has been to technological heights and gone beyond Imperial 
understanding.  But, the point of the Ancients Project is to understand 
where the Ancients went wrong.
>  Then again maybe grandfather can leave his universe by remote
>controlling or telepresencing a drone/host in our universe.  He >might be 
>able to use his technology in this way also.  A device that >is nothing 
>more than a transmitter/receiver drawing on power from a >pocket universe 
>with favorable physics and broadcasting the effects >into ours.
Divine messagers?  Better to leave him crippled in the pocket universe.  
Grandfather and the Ancients had their time in our universe and squandered 
that chance.  It is like him leaking out technology.  [Human Beings (and 
whatever else exists in the universe) are makers of their own History.  
However, that history is not always of their own choosing.  The structures 
are however but a medium, for agency.  My ramble.]  The point is, that 
Grandfather is not an active agent in the current time.  Whether, he will 
re-emerge Secret of the Ancients seems to say: no.  My feeling is also: no.  
He left behind all these great toys (puzzles, enigmas)to propel those who 
came after him to complete his work.

>Then again, perhaps the Imperium is a large (or seemingly so) "pocket
>universe" of Grandfathers.  Maybe it is set up so that we will >research  
>the Empress Wave which is really a representation of >something in the 
>"real" universe that worries Grandfather.  That or >the Emperium is a 
>weapons research tank for grandfather so he set up >different races and the 
>right factors for conflict.  Add in a dash >of heavily devastated worlds 
>hinting at ancient weapons of even >greater technology to give people the 
>idea/incentive
>to find/re-create/invent them.

Multiple universes?  Real Universes?  You like GURPS, I can tell. BTW, so do 
I except for the mechanics. Sure those are possibilities.  But, I think 
Grandfather is beyond his time actively caring what is going on in the 
Imperial Campaign.  The Empress Wave is something interesting, 
however...Dave are ready to reveal what the Empress Wave is/was/will be?  I 
have always assumed it was the thing that the Ancients were even scared of.  
Remember in the preamble the Ancients being one of many civilizations during 
their time. I don't think Grandfather wants to see more death, even he is 
the homocidial manac that I suggested in earlier TML.
   Ancient sites are just what they seem to be artifacts of an earlier age.  
We may look at the pyramids, Easter Island monoliths and wonder but 
essentially we know that it was our ancestors who built them.  The pyramids 
do not have some deeper understanding ready to convey to our age regarding 
Immortal life, likewise Ancient sites.  As to how, they were constructed... 
it is like Remms Cathedral build by Human Beings but even with all the 
technology we have now we could exactly duplicate the task.  So it is with 
the Ancients we must uncover their mentality and place them into the time in 
which they live and not extrapolate them into the present.  The Ancients are 
dead.  However, long live the Ancient Project!


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:20:22 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Space:1889 the Television series...

I'm not kidding...

http://www.andersinternational.com/newpage1.htm

Who remembers the Cadillacs & Dinosaurs Cartoon?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:16:11 -0700
From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
Subject: Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:16:11 -0700

>Good point, controls may be easier to use, gauge placement improved, 8-way
>adjustable electric seats instead of 6-way adjustable in the earlier
>models.
<snipped>
Don't forget plain old trends in fashion. Even if the Air/Raft
you just purchased at Bob's New Floaters is functionally
identical to the decade-old model that your grouchy neighbour
drives, it may look quite different.

And look at new designs aimed at recreating older vehicles. Now you have two
vehicles that may appear outwardly identical but are vastly different in
capabilities.

David Larson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:01:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Tag Lines

Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu> writes:
> 
> ... Here's a list of my least favorite things:
> 
> Pools of blood
> Bits of bone
> Flashing red and blue lights
   [...snip...]
> Excisions
> Bypasses
> Debridements
> Not being able to pay enough attention to other public health problems
> 
> Anyone care to add to this list?

Sure.

  nasal canulas
  trach. tubes
  Stryker frames
  traction pins
  empty boxes labelled "Haldol" and "Narcan"
  chaplains
  TA reports (in triplicate)
  morphine drips
  catheters (or did you already list that one?)
  evulsions
  contact stars
  skin grafts
  "eight ball" wounds
  nephrectomies
  arterial shunts
  non-elastic tissue trauma

I could probably go on for hours. :^/

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:09:24 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

In a message dated 7/22/99 2:31:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ian@vax2.concordia.ca writes:

<< Yes and no. Although inches, gallons, et al. did not start
 	in the USA, the US Gallon did. This is all a plot to confuse
 	Canadians who tried to learn US Gallons, Imperial Gallons,
 	and Litres all at the same time %(
  >>
 It hardly takes a plot to confuse a Canadian ;-)

			

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:31:33 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

>DE-A4469J2-000000-50003-0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons


Thankyou, my happy little belter.

Are there any deckplans/pics that one should work around?

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:58:26 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

>DE-
Size - A
Config - 4
Jump - 4
Man - 6
Pwr - 9
Comp - J
Crew - 2-

000000-

Lasers - 5000
Misiles - 3-

0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons
>BBearing          3   4                   TL15
>Batterues         3   4                Crew=14
>Pass=0. Cargo-0. Fuel=490. EP=90. Agility=6. Troops=0. Two cutters
>
>Basically, 4 officers, 10 ratings.  J4, 6G, P9.  Mod 9/fib, 10 hardpoints
(6 tiple lasers, 4 triple missiles), onboard scoops & purification.


Okay - there's no way the crew's going to stay that small - expect a
complement of about 50.

Looking at it, that's a pretty freaky ship. No defences, no armour, and only
turrets for armament. (Compare the Chrysanthemum DE (FFS design), which is a
1000dt unstreamlined design with a pair of parallel PAW mounts, a meson
screen and a trio of sandcasters.)

Hmmm. The turrets are a product of the High Guard space allocation rules, so
it might need the missile turrets replacing with a single bay of equivalent
firepower. Fuel percentage we can match - I'll have to see how it affects
range.

Cutters are 50 ton standard LSP models?


++ SCURRIES OFF AND BALLPARKS UP DESIGN ++

Okay, so we have (presented in the Antti Lahtinen format):

THE FER-DE-LANCE CLASS DESTROYER ESCORT
Conversion by Nick Bradbeer

A standard fleet-escort size ship, the Fer-de-Lance is intended to provide
screening and protection for rapid-moving frontier squadrons who can expect
to be operating outside of tanker support. Packing a combined missile/laser
armament and very thin defences, the Fer-de-Lance offers a heavy punch
followed by a lengthy reload cycle. The missile-heavy armament makes this
ship a popular choice for High Guard duty, providing coverage to the fleet
during fueling procedures.

While the Fer has no cargo bay, its surprisingly large hanger often fills
this role. The two cutters are loaded with supplies by a fleet auxilary,
whereupon they dock and are used as storage areas While wasteful of space,
this arrangement does allow extremely fast resupply of a squadron, and also
allows the ships being restocked to retain combat readiness rather than
docking down.

The weapons load comprises four autoloaded missile barbettes, each carrying
five ready missiles. These are augmented by six single rapid-fire 400 MJ
grav-focussed remote laser barbettes, usually tied together into three
batteries each controlled by an MFD station.

Design Notes:
    I tried to keep the crew level down as far as possible - 31 was a
minimum, mainly enforced by the engineering and gunnery crews (five MFD
gunners, and four missile loaders).
    Fuel percentage is 47.7 instead of 49 - close enough.
    I included the two 50-ton cutters. A small crew, no troops and no cargo
bay suggested the cargo system above.


General Data
Displacement: 1,000 tons Hull Armor: 60
Length: 53.05 meters Volume: 14,000 m3
Price: 615.57 MCr Target Size: M
Configuration:Streamlined Box (4:1.5:1) Tech Level: 15
Mass (Loaded/Unloaded): 8,005.9 / 7,538.0


Engineering Data
Power Plant: 5.4 GW Fusion Power Plant, 0.15 year duration (81.0 m3 fuel)
Jump Performance: 4 (3,500 m3 fuel)
G-Rating: 6G HEPlaR (400.4 MW/G), High-Efficiency CG Lifter (100 MW)
G-Turns: 62 (J3: 79.5; J2: 97; J1: 114.4; 131.9 using all jump fuel), 50.1
m3 fuel each
Maint: 274

Electronics
Computer: 3xTL-15 Fibre-optic computer (1.1 MW)
Commo: Laser (1000 AU; 0.3 MW), 2xMaser (1000 AU; 0.6 MW), Radio (10 hex; 10
MW)
Avionics: , IGS positioning
Sensors: AEMS (16 hex; 25 MW), PEMS Folding array (6 hex; 0.2 MW), PEMS (4
hex; 0.1 MW), 4xLadar (10 hex; 0.6 MW),
ECM/ECCM: EMS Jammer (16 hex;50 MW), EM Masking (14 MW)
Controls: Bridge with 13 bridge workstations, 9 normal workstations, , High
Automation

Armament
Offensive: 4xTL-14 Missile Barbette (Loc:0-Arcs:0;0 MW;1 crew)
6xTL-15 400-MJ Laser Barbette (Loc:0-Arcs:0;444.4 MW;No crew)

Defensive: None
Master Fire Directors:
    3xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; 1.56 MW; 1 crew),
    2xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; Msl 10 hex; 1.86 MW; 1 crew)

Name Short Medium Long Extreme
400-MJ Laser Barbette 10:1/16-50 20:1/16-50 40:1/16-50 80:1/16-50
Missile barbette 1 ALs, 5 RRs, 1 / 10 min 50 min flush


Accommodations
Life Support: m3 LS volume (1.44 MW), Gravitic Compensators (36.11 MW)
Grav Compensation: 6 G.
Crew: 31 (2xManeuver, 2xElectronics, 9xEngineer, 9xGunnery, 1xMaintenance,
4xFlight, 4xCommand)
Crew Accommodations: 18xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW)
Cargo: None
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1x100-ton minimal hangar, two launch
ports
Air Locks: 10

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 6,684.1 m3 (477.4 tons).
Fuel scoops (4% of ship surface), fills tanks in 2.98 hours.
Fuel purification machinery (10MW), 20.05 hours to refine 6,684.1 m3.
Crew requirements are calculated by using 'Modifed FFS' crew model.
67.6 MW power surplus


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:58:50 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

OK, we already know that GT isn't metric.  We already know that
some people get browned off because of this.  We also know that
some people will respond that they don't want to have to learn
metric.  I would also be apparent that, for most people, this isn't
that big a deal...

None of this is going to change.  Now I don't suppose there
is a chance we can not go over it every 6 months?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:03:06 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>I have already determined that GT First In is next on my
>shopping list, what would be good to get for starships?

Liquid Hydrogen? :-)

Get Rob Priors "101 Starships" from www.bits.org.uk - it is free. Downloadable
in PDF form (900KB).

The design system is GT but output is in metric. 

It contains many more than 101 original ship designs for several races and
roles. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if version four was renamed "201
Starships". Each ship has useful flavour text and full design stats. So they are
useable in any era and easily converted if you are gearheaded enough. There are
no pictures or deckplans though.

They are designed using a Mac program (sold seperately) and the document
is at version 3 - so there wont be any major design flaws in any of them. I
believe version four is under way with other GTLs covered?


BTW, is GT version 2 in metric?  They have to do something to it to make its
target audience (i.e. people like us) want to buy it. "Non-metric" has been the
most consistent argument against it that I have seen. Do you think that if we
all report it as errata they will make the change...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

John Buston writes:
 
> BTW, is GT version 2 in metric?  They have to do something to it to make
> its target audience (i.e. people like us) want to buy it. "Non-metric" has
> been the most consistent argument against it that I have seen. Do you think
> that if we all report it as errata they will make the change...

No, they won't.  However, converting to metric with acceptable accuracy is
absurdly easy: read 'yards' as 'meters', 'tons' as 'metric tons' and divide
weights in pounds by 2 and multiply range in miles by 1.5 (making space combat
hexes .05 light-seconds).  Sure, its a bit inaccurate, but given that its all
made-up numbers anyway, who cares?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:47:58 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Gosling class air-raft (was re:popular gravitics)

>A while ago I posted the Gosling class air/raft, which was built under FFS2
>at TL6/9. It had pretty basic electronics, and came in at about KCr 35. It
>had an alcohol IC engine, with a battery/solar array option.

>Unfortunatly I lost the design when my hard drive crashed. Could some nice
>person pull it out of an archive and re-post it (hint).

A while ago? Over a year...

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:17:58
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Gosling class Air/Raft

Known in some circles as the 'IISS Retirement Pension', the Gosling class
is a low orbit-capable 9.8 m3 air/raft, built with a mixture of TL8 and 9
components. It is designed to fit into one displacement ton of cargo space.
Two basic models exist, one powered by TL9 batteries for 2 hours operation,
and the other with a TL7 alcohol-burning power plant with 17 hours fuel.
The first is more useful in worlds without oxygen atmospheres, while the
alcohol-burning power plant can find fuel in almost any frontier or lo-tech
world. Both models feature full atmospheric sealing, and a life support
system allowing 12 hours operations.

The fast subsonic airframe carries only a pilot, and is capable of a speed
of 680 km per hour, and can achieve that speed if unloaded. It's true value
on the frontier is it's impressive external cargo capacity - it has a sling
arrangement for external cargos, and is capable of carrying 12 ton of
external cargo at 334 kmh, or 44 ton of external cargo at 136 kmh.

It's electronic suite is simple, consisting of a TL8 avionics and
navigation aids, and a TL9 image enhancement scope for operations in bad
visibility conditions, plus a 500 km range radio tranciever and two TL8
flight computers to assist the pilot.

The total unit costs KCr 42 (KCr 40 for the alcohol-fueled version), with
KCr 35 of that cost being with TL8 components and the remainder at TL9 (KCr
25 is the flight aids and avionics which truly dashing Scout types can
omit). A TL8 solar array unit for recharging the battery on a type 1 model
takes up 14m3, masses 28 t and costs KCr 84 in TL8 credits, and can
recharge the unit in 29 hours of standard sunlight. Other options include
an alcohol or hydrocarbon electric generator, or mains electricity on more
developed worlds.

Many IISS retirees invest their mustering-out money in one of these units,
then arrange to be mustered out on a suitable world and set up a
surface-to-surface or even surface-to-orbit shuttle service. It should be
noted that whilst the 4.5mm composite laminate shell stops many small arms,
operation in combat areas is not advised.

************************************************************************************

3.4x1.7x1.7 m air raft (9.8 m3) ; 4.5 mm composite lamitate fast subsonic
shell (0.316 m3, 0.986t, KCr 0.986 ; AF 4, max speed 800 kmh)

80 kN TL9 contragravity (0.24 m3, 0.304t, KCr 0.96 - power demand 0.144 MW
at full)

Basic Life Support (0.05 m3, 0.05t, KCr 3)

2m3 TL9 batteries (2m3, 4t, KCr 4 - 0.8 MW hrs), or 0.255 MW alcohol TL7 IC
engine (0.39 m3, 0.39t, KCr 2) plus 16 hours fuel (1.44 m3, 1.152t ; cost
Cr 5 per liter, using 90 liters per hour at full power)

TL8 Nav Aids and Avionics (0.002 m3, 0.002t, KCr 25)

TL9 Image Enhancement Scope (KCr 1)

2x TL9 Flight Computers (KCr 1)

TL8 500 km radio (0.047 m3, KCr 4.86)

1x Crewstation (7m3, 0.2t, KCr 1)

65 liters internal cargo (0.065 m3, 0.065t)

I believe this craft should be able to use the Helicopter external sling
rule on p24 of FFS2. At KCr 45 or so, I believe these things should be all
over the Imperium - they provide better lift capability than a Chinook
cargo helicopter, are capable of making orbit with a brave enough pilot and
can be packed into 1 dton of cargo space. Hell, this thing should replace a
gun on the Scout mustering out table *grin* Oh, and I calculate it at three
maintainence points, so it should be OK for years before needing a look at
with an electronics and a mechanical toolkit. Incidentally, TL8 worlds have
a per capita income of KC8 a year according to Striker, so one of these
things should cost around 7 years annual salary, or about $140 000 in
modern terms.

You could probably build a bigger version, with internal cargo and
passenger capability, at not much increase in cost or reduction in
performance, but I kept the size to something that could be palletised into
1dton of cargo space.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:02:21 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Tag Lines

Micheal A. Newman (obviously a hospital based health care worker, or at
least an interested bystander) wrote :-

> Here's a list of my least favorite
> things:
<various nastinesses, plus regrettable but necessary items snipped>
> Anyone care to add to this list?

 Yeah, I'll give it a go :-
- - The sight and smell of dead gut or recently exhumed corpses.
- - Certifying DOAs in the small hours of the morning in various states of
dismemberment.
- - Relatives and colleagues who insist on resuscitating corpses, or
sending the almost dead to ICU.
- - Medical administrators who insist on adding three more levels to
management while slashing clinical budgets.
- - Ethnic cleansing ; all forms of belligerent tribalism.
- - Fools in the Emergency Room ("You wish that 'Too stupid to live' or
'Shallow Gene Pool' was a valid medical diagnosis.").
- - Awful social situations (some people you treat live in circumstances
out of a nightmare ; truly satanic soap operas).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:01:21 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Ancients Project

>Time waits for no man or whatever Grandfather is.  Preventing the flow of 
>time is impossible. 
IMTU, Grandfather is not immortal, but he might as well be for gaming
purposes.
He survived uncounted millenia in his pocket universe, and will survive
many more.
His technology is so far advanced, nothing any party of players can
effectively do to
kill him. In effect, he is Travellers Elminster.
However he chooses not to interfere in the gaming universe anymore, for
reasons that are entirely
his own to understand. Mere humans probably wouldnt even understand his
motives even if he told them
right in their faces and even stayed around for a little Q&A.


>Grandfather?  You see, I want to make Grandfather subject to the fates not 
>ommipotent.  Grandfather is long-lived (not truly immortal) but he has to 
>have a flaw.
As to his immortality, i always figured, that he is:
a)  extremely long lived,
b)  has the technology to extend his life even further without visibe
drawbacks (kind of like the Cell-Activator of Perry Rhodan)
c)  time in his pocket universe moves much slower than in the visible
world, so that his life seems longer to us.

>Or a little bonkers.  Technology however should not the end point.  Where do 
>start philosophy?  Being is...
>That is what Grandfather realizes, he is a prisoner of his own creation.  
>Again, I harken you back to Faust.  Grandfather is not the demigod of the 
>Traveller universe (despite some attempts to make him such).  He is a being, 
>who has been to technological heights and gone beyond Imperial 
>understanding.  But, the point of the Ancients Project is to understand 
>where the Ancients went wrong.

His mistake was to create his progeny, to help him, but which proved to be
more of a hindrance to
his work. He was so far out, felt his work mattered more than anything else
in the universe, that 
he could not tolerate their interferance with his work and, in his view,
had to undo his "mistake", 
by killing off his offspring and bringing about the largest wholesale
destruction the universe ever
witnessed. 
Only very much later did he realize that what he had done caused so great a
disturbance,
that his work could not be continued anyway. So he instead opted to bide
his time until the 
right moment for a continuation of his work was again at hand (whatever it
was. I believe Grandfathers main project was never revealed)
Or, he felt ashamed later on when he finally discovered he had a heart,
too, and realized what he had done.  For that reason he may have retreated
to his pocket universe, helping along those races he felt most strongly
about, his "fellow droyne" (IMTU, Grandfather was something like the first
Cro Magnon to a race of Neanderthals, only that his appearance was the same). 

>Grandfather is not an active agent in the current time.  Whether, he will 
>re-emerge Secret of the Ancients seems to say: no.  My feeling is also: no.  

>He left behind all these great toys (puzzles, enigmas)to propel those who 
>came after him to complete his work.

Well, i dont think he left his toys for a reason. In fact, most of the
artifacts found
were those that were created by his "children". Only sometimes he chose to
take an active 
part, like when he seeded the Coyns to the Droyne (IMTU, prehistoric Droyne
did not need 
the Coyns to Caste. They only filled ceremonial puposes back then. Only
later did they evolve 
to realy needing them)

> The Ancients are dead.  However, long live the Ancient Project!

Ill roger that!
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:27:13 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Fer-de-Lance Class DE

I cocked up the last post, apologies for having to post this stuff twice.

THE FER-DE-LANCE CLASS DESTROYER ESCORT
Conversion by Nick Bradbeer

A standard fleet-escort size ship, the Fer-de-Lance is intended to provide
screening and protection for rapid-moving frontier squadrons who can expect
to be operating outside of tanker support. Packing a combined missile/laser
armament and very thin defences, the Fer-de-Lance offers a heavy punch
followed by a lengthy reload cycle. The missile-heavy armament makes this
ship a popular choice for High Guard duty, providing coverage to the fleet
during fueling procedures.

While the Fer has no cargo bay, its surprisingly large hanger often fills
this role. The two cutters are loaded with supplies by a fleet auxilary,
whereupon they dock and are used as storage areas. While wasteful of space,
this arrangement does allow extremely fast resupply of a squadron, and also
allows the ships being restocked to retain combat readiness rather than
docking down.

The weapons load comprises four autoloaded missile barbettes, each carrying
five ready missiles. These are augmented by six single rapid-fire 400 MJ
grav-focussed remote laser barbettes, usually tied together into three
batteries each controlled by an MFD station.

Design Notes:
    I tried to keep the crew level down as far as possible - 31 was a
minimum, mainly enforced by the engineering and gunnery crews (five MFD
gunners, and four missile loaders).
    Fuel percentage is 47.7 instead of 49 - close enough.
    I included the two 50-ton cutters. A small crew, no troops and no cargo
bay suggested the cargo system above.


General Data
Displacement: 1,000 tons Hull Armor: 60
Length: 53.05 meters Volume: 14,000 m3
Price: 615.57 MCr Target Size: M
Configuration:Streamlined Box (4:1.5:1) Tech Level: 15
Mass (Loaded/Unloaded): 8,005.9 / 7,538.0


Engineering Data
Power Plant: 5.4 GW Fusion Power Plant, 0.15 year duration (81.0 m3 fuel)
Jump Performance: 4 (3,500 m3 fuel)
G-Rating: 6G HEPlaR (400.4 MW/G), High-Efficiency CG Lifter (100 MW)
G-Turns: 62 (J3: 79.5; J2: 97; J1: 114.4; 131.9 using all jump fuel), 50.1
m3 fuel each
Maint: 274

Electronics
Computer: 3xTL-15 Fibre-optic computer (1.1 MW)
Commo: Laser (1000 AU; 0.3 MW), 2xMaser (1000 AU; 0.6 MW), Radio (10 hex; 10
MW)
Avionics: , IGS positioning
Sensors: AEMS (16 hex; 25 MW), PEMS Folding array (6 hex; 0.2 MW), PEMS (4
hex; 0.1 MW), 4xLadar (10 hex; 0.6 MW),
ECM/ECCM: EMS Jammer (16 hex;50 MW), EM Masking (14 MW)
Controls: Bridge with 13 bridge workstations, 9 normal workstations, , High
Automation

Armament
Offensive:
    4xTL-14 Missile Barbette (Loc:0-Arcs:0;0 MW;1 crew)
    6xTL-15 400-MJ Laser Barbette (Loc:0-Arcs:0;444.4 MW;No crew)
Defensive: None
Master Fire Directors:
    3xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; 1.56 MW; 1 crew),
    2xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; Msl 10 hex; 1.86 MW; 1 crew)

Name Short Medium Long Extreme
400-MJ Laser Barbette 10:1/16-50 20:1/16-50 40:1/16-50 80:1/16-50
Missile barbette 1 ALs, 5 RRs, 1 / 10 min 50 min flush


Accommodations
Life Support: m3 LS volume (1.44 MW), Gravitic Compensators (36.11 MW)
Grav Compensation: 6 G.
Crew: 31
    2xManeuver,
    2xElectronics,
    9xEngineer,
    9xGunnery,
    1xMaintenance,
    4xFlight,
    4xCommand
Crew Accommodations: 18xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW)
Cargo: None
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1x100-ton minimal hangar, two launch
ports
Air Locks: 10

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 6,684.1 m3 (477.4 tons).
Fuel scoops (4% of ship surface), fills tanks in 2.98 hours.
Fuel purification machinery (10MW), 20.05 hours to refine 6,684.1 m3.
Crew requirements are calculated by using 'Modifed FFS' crew model.
67.6 MW power surplus


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #883
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 884



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & the Phantom Menace
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: World building and GT ship building 
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Mayday--Cleaning Up Water Damage!
Re Ameircan Units
Re: Metric & stuff 
Preffered system
Lasers and Missiles
SFB, and BL
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: SFB [OT]
[none]
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Crimes against Sentience
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #881
Re: Lasers
Re: Lasers
Re: On the nature of Jump Space...
Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!
Two Ship Design Questions (FF&S2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:18:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & the Phantom Menace

Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below
Possible Spoiler Below


When we talk about fighters, and their lack of viability in Traveller
thanks to the effect of laser ROF, and the size of warships, wanting to get
a feel like 'Star Wars' is often cited as a reason to upgrade fighter
performance.

Interestingly, the Naboo Fighters in the Phantom Menace tend to support the
Traveller feel of ineffectual fighters against capital ships. When they
attack the Droid Control Cruiser their weapons are ineffectual against the
shielding, much as a Ramparts' would be against a Plankwell.

Taking this further -

1) the fighters in Episode IV are only effective because they actually get
through the shields of the Death Star and hit a known vulnerability. As
Armour in the Star Wars universe seems to relate to shields this means they
got past the armour and scored a critical ;-)

2) the fighters in Episode VI are only effective within the superstructure
of the new Death Star within the shield. Against capital ships they die
quickly and only score successes when they either suicide (into the bridge)
or concentrate fire on surface fittings which make the capital ship more
vulnerable (especially to the Rebel cruisers in close proximity).

Hence, I think that the answer to the argument 'I wish fighters were more
like those in Star Wars' is that they actually are, and we only see them in
an effective role in unusual situations.

Thoughts?

Dom

PS Corsucant - Trantor or even Sylea - nice ideas with the grav vehicles
and grav floated structures. I'm surprised no one has mentioned them even
with a spoiler notice!

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:37:21 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> >There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never heard of
> >Starfleet Battles, what is that?
> 
> 
> It's a very old (and VERY complex) game by Amarillo Design Bureau, used to
> be marketted through Task Force Games. It's based on the original series
> Star Trek with some modifications and the focus is very heavily detailed
> tactical ship combat. You can;t design ships, but there are some 800
> available and the combat is so complex you don't need to. Personally, I love
> the game. Rules-haters tend to loathe it - it takes up about two feet on a
> bookshelf.
> 

If you love it, then you maybe already know that Starfleet Command, a
commercial computer game based on the core SFB rules is coming out next month
from Interplay:

http://www.interplay.com/sfcommand/

It looks very pretty from the screenshots.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 01:30:17 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: World building and GT ship building 

> What are people's thoughts on world/system building rules.  Which are
> preferred, including, perhaps, rules from non-Traveller systems? 
> 

Core System Generation:
Classic Traveller/Scouts

Extended System Generation:
World Builders Handbook with various additions, in particular:
- - from http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/Worlds_and_Starports,
I use the life score if WBH indicates life is present.
- - some bits of First In seem useful and I'll probably pull them in. There are
good ideas dotted throughout this book.
Also note that Stewart Ferris' world builder deluxe software will generate
WBH/Pocket Empires/Naval Squadrons stats to your hearts content, which resolves
alot of the unwieldiness of the WBH book.

Animals:
- - basic CT animal encounters

Economics
- - Pocket Empires extensions

Other Traveller Stuff
- - First In is very good, but a) it's GURPS and b) WBH got there first. If
you use First In and you're also concerned with economics then Far Trader
matches up well.
- - Grand Survey/Grand Census pretty much equates to WBH. Grand Survey has
some extra stuff on weather and the resource tables are slightly different
- - World Tamers Handbook (TNE) was horrible, at least for this purpose; but
then it's really a game within a game, concerned with world settlement in the
TNE era.
- - I've used the alternate generation rules in the Missouri doc for worlds
outside "known space", since CT assumes civilisation - eg the starport being
generated first.

Non-Traveller Stuff
- - in an imperium game you really have to go with either the CT rules or the
GT/First In rules as the core to get worlds which match the feel of the game &
milieu
- - 2300AD has a very good system which matches well to the feel of 2300AD
- - Space Master has a system which manages to be more complex than 2300AD but
provide less detail
- - GURPS space is OK but uses a lot more words to convey less info than CT
(viz: Behind the Claw). The traveller UPP idea is simply a stroke of
brilliance.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:42:16 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

At 02:11 PM 7/12/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>
>What sort of board games would exist in 3I? Hell would the concept even
>still exist? Would there be a Monopoly equivalent ("You landed on Sylea and
>I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker have a

	Hmm ... maybe the list should create a Monopoly equivalent for
inveterate Travellers ... inputs?

	Boardwalk =
	Park Avenue =
	Free Parking =
	Railroads = Subsidized Merchant Routes?
	etc ...

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:50:08 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Mayday--Cleaning Up Water Damage!

Sorry to be a bit OT here, but I figured folks here might be
motivated to help out of sheer dismay.

	The movers the Air Force hired to mangle my household goods between
Colorado and Virginia did their job ... several boxes showed up
soaked through and mildewed. In addition to chopping holes in my
30-year collection of Analog, destroying several professional
references, and ruining my only copy of some undergrad code I wrote,
they managed to nail my copies of the Mayday rules, MT, TNE, and
several of the original JTAS. Anybody got suggestions on how to save
or partially restore them?

	And in that vein, how's that TravCD project coming along? Water
don't bother CDs ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:01:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Ameircan Units

>
>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
>gallon.
>
Typical resonse "lots".

I don't even know if I remember: Lessee, 2 to the pint, 2 pints to the
quart, 4 quarts to the gallon... 16 cups?

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:19:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Metric & stuff 

>  >> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)
>  >You rilly oughta quit smokin' that stuff...
> 
> Well, we know where you spent your youth. :-)

As well as the money my parents gave me for singing lessons.  <grin>

ObTrav:  What 'recreational chemicals' are illegal throughout the Imperium, 
and just how heavily are they smuggled?  Steve Perry's 'Matador' series 
touched on this subject tangentically in both 'The Man Who Never Missed' and 
'The 97th Step'...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:22:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Preffered system

>>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
>>Subject: Preferred system mechanics
>...
>>For combat, I use the MT personal combat system! (use the fire control
>>tables, and the stats as listed in the Player's manual). Personally, I find
>>this to be the most realistic (albeit also very close ranged) set-up.
>
>  How so "very close ranged"? Does it diverge that substantially from Striker
>wrt determining hits?
>
>        Steven Hudson
>
Combat pretty much only occurs between 1 and 100 diameters of a body, and
fire only occurs to a few hundred KM's. Mind you, I had to expand the arty
tables...

But, in play, it works well. I use a combination of the large scale rules
from Ref's Companion and the maneuver rules (albeit not the scale) from
Mayday and the personal/vehicular combat rules from Player's and Ref's.

And I split out the damage points for weapons into individual mounts.
Works really well on the 1-5 ships level. Standard damage mode used for
more than that (never done more than 10 on a side that way tho).

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:22:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Lasers and Missiles

>However, the same person later on said that point defense lasers could engage
>multiple targets (without taking time to move the turret to line them up)
>because it used a targeting mirror system.
>Now - this - I have a problem with. Why doesn't the targeting mirror (like the
>shielding) react explosively to the beam? Just what is the mirror supposed
>to be
>made of?
>
No mirror reflects all frequencies, nor 100%. A targeting mirror will need
to be 99+% reflective to THAT LASER's frequencies.
Reflective armor, when hit sufficiently "hard" enough WILL detonate from
the retained energy. (For proof of absorbtion, put a mirror out in the sun
for a while, and feel the back after a few hours. compare it with a piece
of black painted identical material with same exosure.) Problem with reflec
is that it is required to be "Good" against a wider range than a targeting
mirror, since laser frequencies will vary from laser to laser.

That help?

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:22:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: SFB, and BL

>>On 22 Jul, Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >There's one set of opinions, leading me towards FF&S. I have never
>>> > heard of Starfleet Battles, what is that?
>...
>>I used to think it was a good game. Now I just think that there's
>>a good game in there somewhere... unfortunately, I think that game
>>is a World War I naval game. :-]
>
>  No, that's Starfire - SFB is some kind of jet warfare game...

Starfire: WW1 & 2 in space. Simple, elegant, and fast. At least so long as
you don't do campaigns.

SFB: really fun, elegant in it's simplicity TO PLAY provided you ignore the
75% of the rules that are either optional, don't apply to your chose race,
or don't apply in the battle in question. Just don't look for "Reality", or
even adherance to "Classic Trek" combat modes... especially the Movies.

BL: a good start on a "Traveller SFB Clone".

SLAG!: Quick and easy. Adaptable for use in almost any millieu, with just a
touch of work.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:22:14 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> In a message dated 7/22/99 2:31:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> ian@vax2.concordia.ca writes:
> 
> << Yes and no. Although inches, gallons, et al. did not start
>  	in the USA, the US Gallon did. This is all a plot to confuse
>  	Canadians who tried to learn US Gallons, Imperial Gallons,
>  	and Litres all at the same time %(
>   >>
>  It hardly takes a plot to confuse a Canadian ;-)

No, but it's more fun when you use one.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:24:23 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> >DE-A4469J2-000000-50003-0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons
> 
> 
> Thankyou, my happy little belter.
> 
> Are there any deckplans/pics that one should work around?

Just the drawing on pg 15 of Supplement 9: Fighting Ships.  Basically, it 
looks like a box with a ball on the nose and a pair of boxes attached at the 
rear as 'nacelles'.  Think "squared off version of the USS Enterprise with a 
Klingon bridge" and you'll be close...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:31:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: SFB [OT]

>Actually, the rules total lack of consideration for inertia makes
>them unsuitable for sea, air or space. They're probably most accurate
>for land movement (although having the brakes come on automatically
>when you take your foot off the accelerator is a bit odd).
>
>Phil Kitching

SFB best simulate Cars with the Parking Brake set.... ;-) Or Tracked
Vehicles....

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:31:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>16 Cups to the Gallon.
>
>Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm
>Pilot to figure that out.
>
>Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)

Funny, but up here, most people think you get 3 grams to the 8th oz....

something about State law having decriminalized cannibis for many years,
and drug dealers making a "little bit extra"...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:17:52 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

At 02:34 PM 7/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Monday, July 19, 1999 8:20 AM
>Ian Ferguson said,
>
>> This is exactly how I see jump-space. It is consistent with my
reading of
>the (original)
>> Traveller rules, it is simple (for me, and for my purposes) to
understand,
>and it doesn't
>> raise too many unanswerable questions (that I have thought of). Of


	I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
possible ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:40:55 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
>gallon.

	Which kind of gallon?

	OK, lessee ... a pint's a pound the world around ... two cups to a
pint ... two pints to a quart ... four quarts to a gallon ...

	16?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Crimes against Sentience

>Crimes against sentience at the least.  Here's a list of my least favorite
>things:
>
[snip]
>
>Anyone care to add to this list?
>
Electro-myograms (EMG's)
Muscle Biopsy
unplanned prostate checks by female doctors with long nails.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:15:56 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #881

>My colleague Joe Russell sent me the following, which I submit for your
>consideration.  He didn't cite the source, and I haven't followed up on
>it.

> A NUCLEAR accelerator designed to replicate the Big Bang is under
> investigation by international physicists because of fears that it
> might cause "perturbations of the universe" that could destroy the
> Earth. One theory even suggests that it could create a black hole.
>
Not to put too fine a point on this, this is mostly nonsense. The
"one theory" that suggests it could create a black hole is a letter sent to
Scientific American by a random crank; complete, utter, nonsense.

The stuff about strange matter is at least marginally possible, in the sense
that there is a theory about strange matter being able to convert normal
matter
into other strange matter - albeit under conditions unlikely to occur in the
real world. One should note that cosmic rays arrive periodically with
greater energies than RHIC will have, too.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:07:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lasers

In mail you write:

> I'm going to have a problem describing how ship's turret lasers work
> to my players. I hope someone on the TML with more knowledge of these
> systems can help me. It comes about because of some of the KKM
> discussion about two weeks ago.

> My problem is this:
> Someone posted that missiles could not be shielded from point defense
> laser fire because both reflective and ablative shielding reacts
> *explosively* when hit by a point defense laser. I understand this,
> and I don't have a problem with this part.

> However, the same person later on said that point defense lasers
> could engage multiple targets (without taking time to move the turret
> to line them up) because it used a targeting mirror system.

> Now - this - I have a problem with. Why doesn't the targeting mirror
> (like the shielding) react explosively to the beam? Just what is the
> mirror supposed to be made of?

You missed *details* in that discussion. Basicly, you *can* manage to
have a small, well protected mirror that is perfect enough to reflect
for aiming. It requires 99.99% or better reflectivity and a fair amount
of active cooling. 

You *can't* do the same for a missile. First off, there's no *room* for
the cooling system, and second, you are dealing *vastly* more area, and
area that has to be handled by launchers and fly thru "dirty" vacuum.
It takes *very* few scratches to turn a mirror that can reflect a
weapons grade laser into something that goes "boom" when that same beam
hits. As I recall *one* scratch from a passing dust partical ought to
be enough.

> Now; I know that artificial gravity can be used to focus a laser
> beam, but can someone tell me if it can be used to REFLECT the beam?
> Is that possible? If so, could it be used as a targeting mirror for a
> laser, or does this open up another can of worms. Your thoughts are
> welcome.

Gravity can *bend* light. It can't "reflect" it. And it takes
unreasonably high grav fields to do it anyway. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:22:51 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lasers

>However, the same person later on said that point defense lasers could engage
>multiple targets (without taking time to move the turret to line them up)
>because it used a targeting mirror system.
>Now - this - I have a problem with. Why doesn't the targeting mirror (like
the
>shielding) react explosively to the beam? Just what is the mirror supposed to
be
>made of?

There are three main reasons (two minor, one major.) The first minor one is
that the weapon mirror is in a good, controlled clean environment; you can
be sure it has no dust grains on it, pitting imperfections due to micrometeor
hits, etc. The second is that the designers know what wavelength the laser
will
operate at, so they can use special coatings ("dielectric mirrors") that have
high
reflectivity at one particular wavelength and poor performance elsewhere.
(At high TLs, where lasers are tuneable, the coatings might be tuneable too.)

The third reason is that the laser beam is focussed; so, while it narrows down
to
a 1-cm diameter when it hits the target, it might be tens of cm or even more
than
a meter at launch - so the launch mirror is much bigger, and hence has a lower
energy density hitting it.

(At high TLs, the mirror arrangement might be more complicated. For example,
a high TL free-electron laser might not require a mirror per se; the electron
cavity could act as an "amplifier" for light, amplifying whatever beam comes
into
it without changing the direction or wavefront quality. In that case you'd
feed the
cavity with a "seed" beam, much lower power, that gets aimed by mirrors.
At very high TLs you might dispense with the seed beam and shape the laser
by controlling the electron flow, although I think mirrors will give you more
accuracy.

I should note that you probably do need to move the whole turret to engage
multiple targets - steering of small mirrors (as opposed to the big
telescope-like
launch assembly) probably only works over a degree or so; but steering a big
telescope-like assembly can be done pretty fast - satellite-tracking
telescopes
can slew at ~10 degrees per second.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:20:07 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 6:14 AM
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space


> Antony Farrell writes:
> >In CT & MT the Jump Field was required while in jump space to prevent the
> >physics of that region from intruding into the ships interior. You could
go
> >EVA but as the jump field was only 1 metre from the hull it could get
very
> >tricky.
>
> Where does it cover this in CT? The first time that I heard of
> jump physics "intruding" into a ship's interior was here on the
> TML, but I haven't read every CT source (and I don't remember
> all that I have read :-). Just wondering.
>
>

I think I first read it in the Starship's Operator's Manual???

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:27:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!

In mail you write:

> Mark Urbin writes:
>> 16 Cups to the Gallon.
>> 
>> Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm 
>> Pilot to figure that out.
>> 
>> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)
>
> It's not.  Its 28.35.  I know cups to a gallon by a simple case:
> 2 cups to a pint
> 2 pints to a quart
> 4 quarts to a gallon

No, that's:
 2 quarts to a pottle
 2 pottles to a gallon

Really!

And for good only knows what reason, 1 US gallon = 231 cubic inches. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:57:18 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Two Ship Design Questions (FF&S2)

As part of AuricTech Shipyards' effort better to serve our customers, I
have a couple of questions for my fellow gearheads:

1.  Would densitometers and neutrino sensors with a range of 160 km be
useful in locating deep meson sites from a low orbit?  If not, what
would be the minimum recommended range?  (This question assumes that the
ship mounting such sensors has adequate shielding against said deep
meson sites within the range in question.)

2.  When calculating battery endurance, what are the bare essential
systems to maintain, assuming that there are enough emergency low berths
to hold the entire ship's complement?  My initial assumption is that, if
all crewbeings are in low berth, only the low berths and commo (for
automated distress calls) need to be powered.  Any feedback on this?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #884
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 23 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 885



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: 
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
Re: Preffered system
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: The Fighter Debate...
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Lasers
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
RE: Plumes
FW: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
FW: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
FW: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
RE: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour
Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!
Re: Space:1889 the Television series...
Bye for now
Re: Aging of vehicle designs
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
[Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
RE: On the nature of Jump Space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:29:18 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?


> AveNelso@aol.com writes:
> > Even as an American who uses American units for everyday things, I've
> >got to agree.  Traveller is and always has been metric, and it just feels
> >wrong in GT when American units are used instead of metric.
> > Also, although I like T4/T5, I didn't really like FFS2, I thought MT
> >was much clearer and manageable.
>
> I would like a HG like system in T5. YMMV.
>
> My thoughts on metric are influenced by being born post-metrification here
> in the UK. Only real items left now are miles (fuel is now sold in
litres),
> and feet and inches for height.
>
> Older people may vary ;-)
>
> Dom

Heheheheheh... OPMV?  I recall during an anniversary of Oz going metric, the
write-ups of how some of the "oldies" were confused by things such as
"Places were now further way!" (Kilometres being smaller than Miles gave
distances a larger "number" on the old sign post), however, they also found
that "It's further away, but quicker to get too now!" (at a given speed, you
could travel 10K in a shorter time than you could travel 10M).  Reminds me
of our local fight over daylight savings... some dairy farmers reckon their
cows wouldn't know when to come get milked, and the extra hour of daylight
will fade the curtains!

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:44:44 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: 

- ----- Original Message -----
From: David & Kristin Larson <davidlarson@home.com>
To: TML (E-mail) <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 6:16 AM


> >Good point, controls may be easier to use, gauge placement improved,
8-way
> >adjustable electric seats instead of 6-way adjustable in the earlier
> >models.
> <snipped>
> Don't forget plain old trends in fashion. Even if the Air/Raft
> you just purchased at Bob's New Floaters is functionally
> identical to the decade-old model that your grouchy neighbour
> drives, it may look quite different.
>
> And look at new designs aimed at recreating older vehicles. Now you have
two
> vehicles that may appear outwardly identical but are vastly different in
> capabilities.
>
> David Larson
>

Remember the old VW series?

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:11:10 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I
...
>>I have two arcologies. You owe me Cr 750")? Would a ships locker
>have a
>
>	Hmm ... maybe the list should create a Monopoly equivalent for
>inveterate Travellers ... inputs?

 Or:
http://wwwjessen.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~jakobi/meetpoint/starchase/
 "Starchase" - a game loosely based on the Company Wars / trade game 
described in the Cyteen novel(s).

  Or heck, just drag out ye olde fantasie game "Merchants of Venus" :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:17:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Preffered system

>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
>Subject: Preffered system
...
>>>this to be the most realistic (albeit also very close ranged) set-up.
>>
>>  How so "very close ranged"? Does it diverge that substantially from Striker
>>wrt determining hits?
...
>Combat pretty much only occurs between 1 and 100 diameters of a body, and
>fire only occurs to a few hundred KM's. Mind you, I had to expand the arty
>tables...

  Oops - I thought you were saying that personal combat was restricted to
much closer ranges than those available in, say, Striker. Then again, 100+
planetary diameters is usually a long way, even if you've got something a
good deal gigger than an assault rifle :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:21:14 +0000
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

<SNIP>

>Heheheheheh... OPMV?  I recall during an anniversary of Oz going 
>metric, the
>write-ups of how some of the "oldies" were confused by things such as
>"Places were now further way!" (Kilometres being smaller than Miles 
>gave
>distances a larger "number" on the old sign post), however, they also 
>found
>that "It's further away, but quicker to get too now!" (at a given 
>speed, you
>could travel 10K in a shorter time than you could travel 10M).  
>Reminds me
>of our local fight over daylight savings... some dairy farmers reckon 
>their
>cows wouldn't know when to come get milked, and the extra hour of 
>daylight
>will fade the curtains!
>
>-- The Roc
>

Okay-so the whole American systems of measures is nuts.  Why do they sell
some products by the half pint and some by the cup?  Also-why does the
military use maps measured in 1 KM square grids and gauges which read in
MPH?

By the way.  Arizona does not do daylight savings time.  I'm not sure
why, but I resent waking up around 5 to 5:30 AM for work and the sun is
already up.  

Bradley Houston
tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:45:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The Fighter Debate...

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & the Phantom Menace
...
>When we talk about fighters, and their lack of viability in Traveller
>thanks to the effect of laser ROF, and the size of warships, wanting to get
>a feel like 'Star Wars' is often cited as a reason to upgrade fighter
>performance.
...
>Hence, I think that the answer to the argument 'I wish fighters were more
>like those in Star Wars' is that they actually are, and we only see them in
>an effective role in unusual situations.
>
>Thoughts?

  Isn't the supposed thesis usually conceived more along the lines of "I like
fighters because those in Star Wars were really cool, and everyone knows that
a single strike aircraft can sink a capital ship"?

  Luckily, Trav warships don't worry about loss of buoyancy :)



The Fighter Debate

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:09:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>From: AveNelso@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
...
> It hardly takes a plot to confuse a Canadian ;-)

  Ooh, flame-bait, tasty! :)

  FWIW, by way of a dumb Yank comeback, I saw some really funny stuff on 
A&E last night, purporting to be part of the Kennedy family bio's they're 
showing ad nauseum (good taste, that...) - apparently the Germans invaded
Czechoslavakia (!) in `38, or at least A&E chose to show some clips of
generic military activity at that point, and the US public was generally 
in favour of taking action against Germany at that time (`38-39). 

  I'm quite frankly afraid to ask if this is indicative of US standards in
history instruction or whether it's merely entertainment. What sort of 
overall distortion filter should other Westerners apply to reality to get
the same POV as the average US citizen?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:09:23 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

From: brhoust@juno.com <brhoust@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>By the way.  Arizona does not do daylight savings time.  I'm not sure
>why, but I resent waking up around 5 to 5:30 AM for work and the sun is
>already up.


    Because of the farmers.  And, I do not mind it.  Yes, I live in Arizona.

>Bradley Houston


Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:46:08 +1000
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Re: Lasers

Bruce Macintosh and Leonard Erickson both posted excellent replies to my
question about targeting mirrors.
My thanks to you both.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:52:07 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Games in 3I

At 20:42 20.07.99 -0400, you wrote:

>
>	Hmm ... maybe the list should create a Monopoly equivalent for
>inveterate Travellers ... inputs?
>
>	Boardwalk =
Sylea
>	Park Avenue =
Vland
>	Free Parking =
Skimming Fuel
>	Railroads
Tukera, Imperiallines, etc.

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:07:58 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Plumes

At 18:13 22/07/1999 +0100, D Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net> writes:
>
>M>> >One other question ship-wise: If we're zipping around with reactionless
>>> >thrusters, why do seemingly all illustrations show us ships with
>>> >rearward-facing, suspiciously nozzle-like rear ends, some with exhaust
>>> >plume?  Hmm.
>
>>'Cause it looks cool?
>><d,r,c!!>
>
>Nah... two words.
>
>STAR WARS.
>
>or, alternatively the
>
>MILLENNIUM FALCON

Close, but I would bid for the Star Destroyers from the same film.
Far more nozzle like.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:45:01 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: FW: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com] On Behalf Of Nick
Bradbeer
Sent: Friday, 23 July 1999 5:58
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?


>DE-
Size - A
Config - 4
Jump - 4
Man - 6
Pwr - 9
Comp - J
Crew - 2-

000000-

Lasers - 5000
Misiles - 3-

0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons
>BBearing          3   4                   TL15
>Batterues         3   4                Crew=14
>Pass=0. Cargo-0. Fuel=490. EP=90. Agility=6. Troops=0. Two cutters
>
>Basically, 4 officers, 10 ratings.  J4, 6G, P9.  Mod 9/fib, 10 hardpoints
(6 tiple lasers, 4 triple missiles), onboard scoops & purification.


Okay - there's no way the crew's going to stay that small - expect a
complement of about 50.

Looking at it, that's a pretty freaky ship. No defences, no armour, and only
turrets for armament. (Compare the Chrysanthemum DE (FFS design), which is a
1000dt unstreamlined design with a pair of parallel PAW mounts, a meson
screen and a trio of sandcasters.)

Hmmm. The turrets are a product of the High Guard space allocation rules, so
it might need the missile turrets replacing with a single bay of equivalent
firepower. Fuel percentage we can match - I'll have to see how it affects
range.

Cutters are 50 ton standard LSP models?


++ SCURRIES OFF AND BALLPARKS UP DESIGN ++

Okay, so we have (presented in the Antti Lahtinen format):

THE FER-DE-LANCE CLASS DESTROYER ESCORT
Conversion by Nick Bradbeer

A standard fleet-escort size ship, the Fer-de-Lance is intended to provide
screening and protection for rapid-moving frontier squadrons who can expect
to be operating outside of tanker support. Packing a combined missile/laser
armament and very thin defences, the Fer-de-Lance offers a heavy punch
followed by a lengthy reload cycle. The missile-heavy armament makes this
ship a popular choice for High Guard duty, providing coverage to the fleet
during fueling procedures.

While the Fer has no cargo bay, its surprisingly large hanger often fills
this role. The two cutters are loaded with supplies by a fleet auxilary,
whereupon they dock and are used as storage areas. While wasteful of space,
this arrangement does allow extremely fast resupply of a squadron, and also
allows the ships being restocked to retain combat readiness rather than
docking down.

The weapons load comprises four autoloaded missile barbettes, each carrying
five ready missiles. These are augmented by six single rapid-fire 400 MJ
grav-focussed remote laser barbettes, usually tied together into three
batteries each controlled by an MFD station.

Design Notes:
    I tried to keep the crew level down as far as possible - 31 was a
minimum, mainly enforced by the engineering and gunnery crews (five MFD
gunners, and four missile loaders).
    Fuel percentage is 47.7 instead of 49 - close enough.
    I included the two 50-ton cutters. A small crew, no troops and no cargo
bay suggested the cargo system above.


General Data
Displacement: 1,000 tons Hull Armor: 60
Length: 53.05 meters Volume: 14,000 m3
Price: 615.57 MCr Target Size: M
Configuration:Streamlined Box (4:1.5:1) Tech Level: 15
Mass (Loaded/Unloaded): 8,005.9 / 7,538.0


Engineering Data
Power Plant: 5.4 GW Fusion Power Plant, 0.15 year duration (81.0 m3 fuel)
Jump Performance: 4 (3,500 m3 fuel)
G-Rating: 6G HEPlaR (400.4 MW/G), High-Efficiency CG Lifter (100 MW)
G-Turns: 62 (J3: 79.5; J2: 97; J1: 114.4; 131.9 using all jump fuel), 50.1
m3 fuel each
Maint: 274

Electronics
Computer: 3xTL-15 Fibre-optic computer (1.1 MW)
Commo: Laser (1000 AU; 0.3 MW), 2xMaser (1000 AU; 0.6 MW), Radio (10 hex; 10
MW)
Avionics: , IGS positioning
Sensors: AEMS (16 hex; 25 MW), PEMS Folding array (6 hex; 0.2 MW), PEMS (4
hex; 0.1 MW), 4xLadar (10 hex; 0.6 MW),
ECM/ECCM: EMS Jammer (16 hex;50 MW), EM Masking (14 MW)
Controls: Bridge with 13 bridge workstations, 9 normal workstations, , High
Automation

Armament
Offensive: 4xTL-14 Missile Barbette (Loc:0-Arcs:0;0 MW;1 crew)
6xTL-15 400-MJ Laser Barbette (Loc:0-Arcs:0;444.4 MW;No crew)

Defensive: None
Master Fire Directors:
    3xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; 1.56 MW; 1 crew),
    2xTL-15 (6 Diff Mods; 10 hex; Msl 10 hex; 1.86 MW; 1 crew)

Name Short Medium Long Extreme
400-MJ Laser Barbette 10:1/16-50 20:1/16-50 40:1/16-50 80:1/16-50
Missile barbette 1 ALs, 5 RRs, 1 / 10 min 50 min flush


Accommodations
Life Support: m3 LS volume (1.44 MW), Gravitic Compensators (36.11 MW)
Grav Compensation: 6 G.
Crew: 31 (2xManeuver, 2xElectronics, 9xEngineer, 9xGunnery, 1xMaintenance,
4xFlight, 4xCommand)
Crew Accommodations: 18xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW)
Cargo: None
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: 1x100-ton minimal hangar, two launch
ports
Air Locks: 10

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 6,684.1 m3 (477.4 tons).
Fuel scoops (4% of ship surface), fills tanks in 2.98 hours.
Fuel purification machinery (10MW), 20.05 hours to refine 6,684.1 m3.
Crew requirements are calculated by using 'Modifed FFS' crew model.
67.6 MW power surplus


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----Sent the other suggestions before I saw this.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:44:59 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: FW: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com] On Behalf Of Nick
Bradbeer
Sent: Friday, 23 July 1999 3:32
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?


>DE-A4469J2-000000-50003-0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons


Thankyou, my happy little belter.

Are there any deckplans/pics that one should work around?

Nick
Based on the illustraion in Supplement 9 Fighting Ships the forward sphere
seems to be common to both the Chrysanthenum and Fer-De-Lance classes.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:44:55 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: FW: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com] On Behalf Of Keven R.
Pittsinger
Sent: Friday, 23 July 1999 2:19
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?


> >I look forward to seeing the result of the gearhead project. Especially
as
> >since the Fighting Ships supplement mentioned that the Plankwell was
built
> >using a different method to other battleships.
> >
> >Has anyone done a TNE conversion for the Fer-De-Lance class destroyer
> >escort? If so I would like to get hold of them.
>
>
> None that I know of, but I don't have the CT stats. If anyone posts them
to
> me, I'd be only too happy to work up a conversion. (Too much time on my
> hands).

DE-A4469J2-000000-50003-0 MCr 744.43 1000 tons
BBearing          3   4                   TL15
Batterues         3   4                Crew=14
Pass=0. Cargo-0. Fuel=490. EP=90. Agility=6. Troops=0. Two cutters

Basically, 4 officers, 10 ratings.  J4, 6G, P9.  Mod 9/fib, 10 hardpoints (6
tiple lasers, 4 triple missiles), onboard scoops & purification.

Keven
 This looks very undergunned compared to the TNE version of the
Chrysanthenum, perhaps if the lasers were replaced by the heavy lasers given
to the Kinunir class when it was converted 900 Mj I think.
- --
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
                                                     Science-Fiction
Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:44:48 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Planetary-Scale Geometry on the PGA Tour

Actually I had heard the theory that the Earth is banana shaped.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:56:36 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!

Yeah, but driving around in a 1 gallon holden just doesn't have that *ring*
to it... :)

M.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: I know the answer & I *still* prefer Metric!


> In mail you write:
>
> > Mark Urbin writes:
> >> 16 Cups to the Gallon.
> >>
> >> Ok, I must admit that I used my handy-dandy conversion tool on my Palm
> >> Pilot to figure that out.
> >>
> >> Just don't ask why I remember it's 28 grams to the ounce. :-)
> >
> > It's not.  Its 28.35.  I know cups to a gallon by a simple case:
> > 2 cups to a pint
> > 2 pints to a quart
> > 4 quarts to a gallon
>
> No, that's:
>  2 quarts to a pottle
>  2 pottles to a gallon
>
> Really!
>
> And for good only knows what reason, 1 US gallon = 231 cubic inches.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:27:29 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Space:1889 the Television series...

Cadilladcs and Dinasaurs?  Was that "Thundarr The Barbarian"?
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:01:21 PDT
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Bye for now

Hi folks, thanks for everyone's help..but the traffic is getting bad over 
the summer vacation time...so I'll have to say bye for now..thanks again for 
everyone's help...I'm sure I'll be back..
mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:28:03 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Aging of vehicle designs

Ian Ferguson responded
>
>Paul Zumstein writes:
> >Good point, controls may be easier to use, gauge placement improved, 
>8-way
> >adjustable electric seats instead of 6-way adjustable in the earlier
> >models.
><snipped>
>
>	Don't forget plain old trends in fashion. Even if the Air/Raft
>	you just purchased at Bob's New Floaters is functionally
>	identical to the decade-old model that your grouchy neighbour
>	drives, it may look quite different.
>

Very true, does yours have bulbous fenders and large fins, the boxy look or 
that sleek Ferrari styling with front and rear stabilizers.  I prefer the 
imitation stealth look myself.

PZ


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:45:20 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
>>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
>>gallon.
>
>	Yes and no. Although inches, gallons, et al. did not start
>	in the USA, the US Gallon did. This is all a plot to confuse
>	Canadians who tried to learn US Gallons, Imperial Gallons,
>	and Litres all at the same time %(

Tell me about it. I'm a Canadian who's going to be driving down to 
the US next week on vacation. I remember the last time I was there,
and asked for "200 grams" of ham at the supermarket deli. I'm
lucky I wasn't arrested, given that the only things measured in grams
in the US are illegal substances... :)

The real challenge will be to figure out the price of gas: converting
$US per gallon into $C per litre... and having to remember that the
US gallon isn't the same as the Imperial Gallon (4.54 litres, or
160 fl.oz. for those of you south of the border)... I need a spreadsheet
just to do the calculations. 

ObTrav #1: I run a GURPS Traveller campaign. Like any other GURPS
game my group has ever played, where the rules say "yards", we use
"metres". It seems to work.

ObTrav #2: Do different areas of the Imperium use different measurements?
I would imagine that down by the Solomani Rim they use Solomani units
(1000 metres in a kilometre), while way off to coreward Vilani units
are in vogue (1,728 lishii in a guraadagarur)...

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:19:32 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Dom Mooney writes:
<snipped>
>Hence, I think that the answer to the argument 'I wish fighters were more
>like those in Star Wars' is that they actually are, and we only see them
>in an effective role in unusual situations.

	Very good point. The only difference that I can see is that
	the Death Star had trouble targeting fighters. Presumably,
	the attacking fighters were capable of causing enough harm,
	at least to surface systems, to motivate the Death Star
	officers to launch their own fighters in defense. Do any of
	the incarnations of Traveller include rules that make it 
	difficult for heavier weapons to target small, agile, targets
	at close range? (my own house rules have a half-a***d system
	to cover this)

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:22:11 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

David J. Golden writes:
>>> This is exactly how I see jump-space. It is consistent with my
reading of
>>the (original)
>>> Traveller rules, it is simple (for me, and for my purposes) to
understand,
>>and it doesn't
>>> raise too many unanswerable questions (that I have thought of). Of

>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
>possible ...

	Sorry, I'm not following you here. Could you rephrase the 
	question?

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #885
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 23 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 886



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: On the nature of Jump Space...
Re: Space:1889 the Television series...
Re: Crimes against Sentience
Re: Starports
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re  Lasers
Re Measuring units
Traveller Monopoly
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Two Ship Design Questions (FF&S2)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885
I'm BAAAAACK :)
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Daylight Savings TIme
Re: American Units
Re: I'm BAAAAACK :)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: The Fighter Debate
Ship Designations: A request
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: On the nature of Jump Space... 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:24:52 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space...

The Roc writes:
>> Where does it cover this in CT? The first time that I heard of
>> jump physics "intruding" into a ship's interior was here on the
>> TML, but I haven't read every CT source (and I don't remember
>> all that I have read :-). Just wondering.

>I think I first read it in the Starship's Operator's Manual???

	That's a new one on me. I guess I'm just an old LBB stick-
	in-the-mud (I barely accept HG, let alone all that other
	new-fangled stuff).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:02:31 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: Space:1889 the Television series...

"Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> carves into stone using the pointy end of 
tire iron:
 >Cadilladcs and Dinasaurs?  Was that "Thundarr The Barbarian"

    Nope.  It was a Saturday morning cartoon based on the comic which GDW 
based it's "House Rules" game of the same name (C&D) on.

    Set in a post cataclysm far future, Mechanics cruse around in rebuilt 
Cadillacs while farmers protect their herds from raiding dinosaurs.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Our users will know fear and cower before our software. Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are! -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:10:56 -0700
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Crimes against Sentience

William F. Hostman wrote:

> >Crimes against sentience at the least.  Here's a list of my least favorite
> >things:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >Anyone care to add to this list?
> >
> Electro-myograms (EMG's)
> Muscle Biopsy
> unplanned prostate checks by female doctors with long nails.

That first Step after being shot through the leg.
The first week with out Vicaden.
That sliding grind and pop as the knee goes out again.
The pulled back muscles the morning after the last fist fight.
Oh, and my personal favorite the way the nurse wakes you
ever hour when you have had a concussion. Never been able
to sleep in a hospitable.

- --
Evyn...
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:16:23 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

>Nick Munn (some list Great Old Ones will remember him) did a ballpark
>design for Ton Vorn, the Sylean orbital city which is huge! Although Grav
>Tech was possible, as it probably started pre-TL12, we discussed and
>decided to base it on rotational pseudo-grav, with some newer parts grav
>plated.

Is this design available somewhere?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:24:28 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

Thursday, July 22, 1999 6:18 PM
David J. Golden said,

> 	I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
> raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
> possible ...

Think of a globe. or an orange.  If you peel of the skin, you essentially
have a 2 dimensional surface that was overlaid on the on a 3 dimensional
one.  Every possible location within the lower dimensional area corresponded
with a point on the higher dimensional one (On the surface of the sphere.),
but not vice versa.

The concept is the same, but with 3 dimensional space layered over a 4 (or
4+) dimensional object.  Its hard to picture as we normally think and
experience in 3 dimensions.  A 2 dimensional being would have as much
trouble understanding a sphere and how to wrap 2 dimensional space around
it's surface.  From his perspective, you can't bend that way.

This logic tends to work as long as the lower dimensional space is finite,
as ours probably is.

G.D.D.
======
The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them
into the impossible. -Arthur C. Clarke

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re  Lasers

Bruce Macintosh writes
[snip]
>The third reason is that the laser beam is focussed; so, while it narrows down
>to
>a 1-cm diameter when it hits the target, it might be tens of cm or even more
>than
>a meter at launch - so the launch mirror is much bigger, and hence has a lower
>energy density hitting it.
>

Excuse me, but that makes no sense. The limitations of focussing at the
ranges used basically prevent this from happening... the best you get is a
nealy cylindrical cone, and in almost all cases, the narrow end is at the
weapon. Anything else results in a fixed focus weapon, useful only at a
given set of ranges.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Measuring units

I always figured the 3I imposed metric for official buisiness.

I also figure that vilani count in octal.

I also assume that all races with spaceflight are likely to have a system
comparable to metric, but the base units for time, distance, and mass will
be different, an multiples will be based upon which base they use for
mathematics... but the equivalent of kilo will still be written 1000....

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Traveller Monopoly

>	Hmm ... maybe the list should create a Monopoly equivalent for
>inveterate Travellers ... inputs?
>
>	Boardwalk =
		Sylea
>	Park Avenue =
	Park Place = Terra
>	Free Parking =
	no-fee starport
>	Railroads = Subsidized Merchant Routes?
		no, Tukera, Akerut, Oberlindes, Makidhadrun


William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:04:42 EDT
From: MurfNMurf@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885

 Hey gang,
   I'm just returned to this digest after a year&1/2 offline, and I'm curios 
as to which system everyone is using;with Trave there's certianly room for a 
lot of different choices.Me, I'm playing prettymuch MT,with some stuff cadged 
from TNE &Marc'sTrav.
   A few things I've decided to do ship-wise in my campaign:
   Made the tractor and repulsors come out at the same TL;in fact making them 
the same device.After all,you dont own a car that goes fwd,and another that 
goes backwards.I figured it was just a matter of having the proper gearshift 
:)
   I removed Meson weapons entirely.I didn't mind everything beingh 
transparent to them.That's an excellent commo devices.But as weapons?I didn't 
care for the idea that, while they penetrate anything(without any apparent 
side-effects),they can handily be manipulated to cause an explosion inside an 
object(like a ship!what're the chances?) following penetration.To me this has 
"Magic" stamped all over it.
   BlackGlobes are gone too. I didn't care for them being obviously cadged 
from Mote in God's Eye.They're all "white" now.Lower TL too.
   
   Last issue Brad was wondering why the (US, I'm guessing) military use maps 
measured in 1 KM square grids and gauges which read in MPH?
   Brad,its to give our forces familiarity with the metric system so they'll 
be able to pick up a map made  ANYWHERE,and  use it effectively when we  make 
that big push against the rest of the planet.The guages remain in MPH because 
yanks are comfortable with it.Besides,we'll be imposing our wonderful 
american measurements once we rule the planet:)

   And AveNelso wonders
   What sort of overall distortion filter should other Westerners apply to 
reality to get
the same POV as the average US citizen?
   See above:)
   
   I've found listings of  Traveller aliens on the net,but been unable to 
find CT/MT/Marc'sTrav stats for both the Kkree and the Droyne (I missed the 
original books that had 'em).Could someone who has them PLEASE e-mail them to 
me?I'm just looking for how to roll 'em up;any sorta special species-specific 
career tables are unimportant. 
   Another question:Fusion guns listed in MT and the ones listed in High 
Guard have different values for the same # of weapons.Which one is actually 
right?If its the HG ones,then by all means,give me Fusionguns.lol!
  -Ken-

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:19:14 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

>Just the drawing on pg 15 of Supplement 9: Fighting Ships.  Basically, it
>looks like a box with a ball on the nose and a pair of boxes attached at
the
>rear as 'nacelles'.  Think "squared off version of the USS Enterprise with
a
>Klingon bridge" and you'll be close...


Sounds like a Chrysanthemum to me. That's been published by GDW (in
Brilliant Lances). But it's unstreamlined, those nacelles are light PAWs now
and it requires tanker support hand has a crew of 54.

Well, I envisaged the Fer-de-Lance as fulfilling a similar role to the
Chrysanthemum, but operating on the frontier away from tanker support.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:31:22 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Two Ship Design Questions (FF&S2)

Black ICE wrote:

>2.  When calculating battery endurance, what are the bare essential
>systems to maintain, assuming that there are enough emergency low berths
>to hold the entire ship's complement?  My initial assumption is that, if
>all crewbeings are in low berth, only the low berths and commo (for
>automated distress calls) need to be powered.  Any feedback on this?

I'd suggest that the nav. computer stays running - then your signal GK
can say `help me - I'm at co-ords xxxxyyyyzzzz moving at xxxxyyyyzzzz'
rather than just `help me - home in on this beacon' which is a bit
pointless.

It would also let the ship consider minor problems like a large asteroid
on a collision vector (time to wake the crew and abandon ship, or maybe
try the M-drive).

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:17:30 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <MurfNMurf@aol.com>
>    I'm just returned to this digest after a year&1/2 offline, and I'm
curios
> as to which system everyone is using;with Trave there's certianly room for
a
> lot of different choices.Me, I'm playing prettymuch MT,with some stuff
cadged
> from TNE &Marc'sTrav.

Welcome to the "Slightly more than 50% GURPS Traveller Mailing List", for
better or worse.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:18:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: I'm BAAAAACK :)

Since I now have limited net access, I have decided to
rejoin the fray :) Anyone can send me a Reader's
Digest condensed version of what I've missed for the
last few months? <g>

Allen
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:20:24 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

Terry C wrote:
> > What would a character see if they looked out a window or went
> > EVA during jump?
> 
> I suppose that if you could find someone who's EVA'd in jumpspace
> and was still **sane** you could ask.

According to the Traveller  News  Service  that  would  be  Naval
Commander Ansel Churner on 121-1111:

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A)             Date: 102-1112

    A dispatch from Terra/Sol (0207-A867A69-F) dated 121-1111
    reads: "The first known victim known  to  survive  direct
    exposure to hyperspace arrived at Terra today,  suffering
    from  what  medical  experts  are   calling   "Hyperspace
    sickness".  Naval Commander Ansel Churner, an engineering
    officer on his way to retirement on Prometheus, is  being
    held in strict quarantine until specialists can determine
    the specific  effects  the  exposure  will  have. Doctors
    working on the case are quoted as saying that preliminary
    tests  indicate  that  Commander  Churner  is   in   good
    condition, but is not mobile.

    "Three members  of  the  engineering  department  on  the
    Tyrol,  a  Rome,  Inc.   luxury   liner,   were   killed.
    Circumstances of their deaths have not been  released  at
    this time."

    Admiralty spokesmen at Regina refused to comment  on  the
    dispatch.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                           Challenge 26 - GDW

A follow on news article states:

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Meanwhile, medical specialists at the Demosthenes  Naval
    Hospital have confirmed the gradual recovery of Commander
    Churner from the almost  total  loss  of  equilibrium  he
    suffered as a result of exposure to hyperspace.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Meanwhile, according to DGP-canon ...

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    To the observer aboard a starship <snip> one second he is
    looking at a normal star field  with  a  glare  from  the
    energized lanthanum hull grid clearly visible; the  next,
    he can see only the undulating gray "nothingness" of  the
    protective jump field.

    <snip>

    The  "wall"  of  the   protective   jump   field   bubble
    surrounding a ship in jumpspace does not routinely  touch
    the ship, but hovers about a meter from the hull surface.
    While one can crawl about on the  hull  of  the  ship  in
    jumpspace, getting close to the jump  field  with  little
    intervening protection  has  dangerous  effects  on  most
    lifeforms.

    Most go temporarily insane  if  they  get  within  a  few
    centimeters of a  jump  field  barrier,  and  some  never
    recover or even die from its effects.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                             Starship Operator's Manual - DGP

If you want both excepts to be true in YTU then Commander Churner
must have passed *beyond* the protective jump field  bubble,  and
come back! ... however, we were never told what he saw.  Referees
wanting to add a horror element  to  their  campaign  could  draw
inspiration from the film "Event Horizon".



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:15:28 GMT
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Daylight Savings TIme

Personally, I am glad we do not have Daylight Savings in Arizona.  I have
difficulty understanding its usefulness in the southern portions of the US
(I can understand it in the noerthern climes, where the days are much
longer in summer and shorter in winter).

And I also enjoy confusing coworkers in other states or countries when the
time shift happens.

Steve Charlton
Tucson, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:03:35 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: American Units

At 09:01 PM 7/22/99 -0400, William F. Hostman wrote:
>>
>>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
>>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
>>gallon.
>>
>Typical resonse "lots".
>

Add to this that anyone from 25 to 45 was convinced in school that we
would be converting to metric soon. They sent us home with these bizarre
conversion charts that included such points of enlightenment as:
Time: No change. 
Money: No change.

Thank you Thomas Jefferson. (He pushed for metric money in the US, and
also pushed for an ~metric~ system, miles, dimes of miles, cents of miles.)

Anyway, there was never any change, and no one has any problem picking up
a 2 liter bottle of soda, but wait, a 2 liter bottle of milk? I have to 
pull out my conversion tables!


- -- 
C I forgot how much I hated fortran until I had the   00435356
C misfortune of having to go back and work on some    00435357
C legacy code -- Rob Brady (robb@datatone.com)        00435358

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:13:12
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: I'm BAAAAACK :)

At 12:18 PM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Since I now have limited net access, I have decided to
>rejoin the fray :) Anyone can send me a Reader's
>Digest condensed version of what I've missed for the
>last few months? <g>

We've all given up Traveller and are player Rifts.

Wanna hear about my 326th level Glitterboy Vampire?

Welcome back!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:51:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: AveNelso@aol.com
> >Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
> ...
> > It hardly takes a plot to confuse a Canadian ;-)
> 
>   Ooh, flame-bait, tasty! :)
> 
>   FWIW, by way of a dumb Yank comeback, I saw some really funny stuff on
> A&E last night, purporting to be part of the Kennedy family bio's they're
> showing ad nauseum (good taste, that...) - apparently the Germans invaded
> Czechoslavakia (!) in `38, or at least A&E chose to show some clips of
> generic military activity at that point, 

The first Nazi military incursion into Czechoslavakia took place in the
fall of 1938, in the mostly ethnic German Sudentanland. The Czechs
finally abandoned their Sudentenland border defenses Oct. 10 after the
Munich Conference clearly showed them that the British and French were
going to do nothing. It was, however, not until March 19, 1939 that the
last provinces capitulated, and all of Czechoslavakia was taken over.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:59:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The Fighter Debate

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
....
>	officers to launch their own fighters in defense. Do any of
>	the incarnations of Traveller include rules that make it 
>	difficult for heavier weapons to target small, agile, targets
>	at close range? (my own house rules have a half-a***d system
>	to cover this)

  Well, presumably under Striker a bunker wouldn't be able to fire at
a pioneer out of its arc, and I assume that heavy vehicles can't tool
around the decks in AHL in attempts to get valid LOS.  :|

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 99 18:34:55 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Ship Designations: A request

Since I am not up on naval information, I was wondering if someone could clairify 
something for me -

I'm in the process of designing some ships for my campaign, and I'm striving to 
be "realistic" - avoiding the whole "The Kinunir is a cruiser?" debacle...

What are the definitions, either tonnage or mission, for the following:
  Destroyer
  Frigate
  Escort
  Patrol Boat

I have a 2,400 displacement ton ship, armed with a PA bay, Missile Bay, 3 laser 
turrets, and a sand turret. It is fast when compared to its opponents (3G - which is 
reasonably fast for a low-tech campaign) and has Jump-3 and heavy armor.

What possible missions/description would such a class support?

Anotehr question - how many marines should be on a smaller ship, if the craft's stated 
purpose is _not_ troop transport. Don't all naval vessels (US, that is) have at least a 
few marines for security and such?

Thanks a bunch...
Andy Akins
igor@truserve.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:02:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> >>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
> >>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
> >>gallon.
> >
> >	Yes and no. Although inches, gallons, et al. did not start
> >	in the USA, the US Gallon did. This is all a plot to confuse
> >	Canadians who tried to learn US Gallons, Imperial Gallons,
> >	and Litres all at the same time %(
> 
> Tell me about it. I'm a Canadian who's going to be driving down to 
> the US next week on vacation. I remember the last time I was there,
> and asked for "200 grams" of ham at the supermarket deli. I'm
> lucky I wasn't arrested, given that the only things measured in grams
> in the US are illegal substances... :)

We're strange about that kinda stuff.

BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France they 
call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
 
ObTrav:  Anybody care to speculate if the Vilani secretly contacted the French a couple hundred years back & the Froggies didn't bother telling anybody about it?  It could help explain their cooking & their misplaced sense of superiority...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:04:09 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space... 

> The Roc writes:
> >> Where does it cover this in CT? The first time that I heard of
> >> jump physics "intruding" into a ship's interior was here on the
> >> TML, but I haven't read every CT source (and I don't remember
> >> all that I have read :-). Just wondering.
> 
> >I think I first read it in the Starship's Operator's Manual???
> 
> 	That's a new one on me. I guess I'm just an old LBB stick-
> 	in-the-mud (I barely accept HG, let alone all that other
> 	new-fangled stuff).

"There is but one Traveller, and High Guard is its product."

Besides, it's nice to be able to throw multi kiloton boats at players.  Keeps 'em properly pranoid...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:03:26 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
they
> call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
>

I'd like a Half-Kilo with cheese, a large coke and fries.

...a half-kilo of coke and some cheesy-fries?



Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+(++) !tn t4 ru+ ge>+ !3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls(+) pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:20:20 EDT
From: RASFranzen@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

 johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

<<  It was, however, not until March 19, 1939 that the
 last provinces capitulated, and all of Czechoslavakia was taken over.
  >>

Minor correction:
Only Czechia was taken over as a protectorate. Slovakia was a (semi 
independant) ally of the Reich.
best wishes
Soenke Franzen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:24:45 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> > BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
> they
> > call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
> >
> 
> I'd like a Half-Kilo with cheese, a large coke and fries.
> 
> ...a half-kilo of coke and some cheesy-fries?

Half a kilo with cheese??????????  That sucker'd weigh over a *pound*.

I seriously doubt they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there a '112 Grammer'.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #886
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, July 23 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 887



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Plumes
re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
re: SFB, and BL
Re: The Fighter Debate...
Re: I'm BAAAAACK :) 
Hey Vinny, you know what they call a Quarter Pounder?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
RE: burgers
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)
Re: I'm BAAAAACK :)
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: Crimes against Sentience
Re: Crimes against Sentience
Re: Fighters
Re: Fighters
Re: Ship designations: a request
Online Bookstore?
Re: Ship designations: a request
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: Online Bookstore?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:27:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Plumes

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com> writes:
>Close, but I would bid for the Star Destroyers from the same film.
>Far more nozzle like.

I concede the point, although the super-star destroyer in Episode V has
red/orange engines.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:33:23 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:
>	Very good point. The only difference that I can see is that
>	the Death Star had trouble targeting fighters. Presumably,
>	the attacking fighters were capable of causing enough harm,
>	at least to surface systems, to motivate the Death Star
>	officers to launch their own fighters in defense.

I suspect that the Death Star officers didn't like the idea of lots of
their surface fixtures being damaged, so launching fighters was the logicl
response. The problem was that the Death Star should have had some Star
Destroyer and Frigate escorts to handle incoming attackers. Its weapons
were all aimed at bigger, slower ships. Kind of like the problem that the
Bizmarck had with Swordfish Bombers, but reversed.

>Do any of
>	the incarnations of Traveller include rules that make it
>	difficult for heavier weapons to target small, agile, targets
>	at close range? (my own house rules have a half-a***d system
>	to cover this)

There is something in a JTAS article which increases fighter effectiveness,
but it doesn't make them harder to hit..

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:41:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: SFB, and BL

"William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> writes:
>Starfire: WW1 & 2 in space. Simple, elegant, and fast. At least so long as
>you don't do campaigns.
>
>SFB: really fun, elegant in it's simplicity TO PLAY provided you ignore the
>75% of the rules that are either optional, don't apply to your chose race,
>or don't apply in the battle in question. Just don't look for "Reality", or
>even adherance to "Classic Trek" combat modes... especially the Movies.
>
>BL: a good start on a "Traveller SFB Clone".
>
>SLAG!: Quick and easy. Adaptable for use in almost any millieu, with just a
>touch of work.

Full Thrust isn't bad either, especially when you modify it for Traveller.

I have a playtest copy of the mods being worked on for BITS if anyone is
interested.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:37:28 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Fighter Debate...

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:

>  Isn't the supposed thesis usually conceived more along the lines of "I like
>fighters because those in Star Wars were really cool, and everyone knows that
>a single strike aircraft can sink a capital ship"?

But we usually refute that one with the point that aircraft are faster and
carry weapons capable of hurting a capital ship (eg a torp). In most WW2
cases several hits were needed with ordnance of a scale similar to capital
ship weapons to kill them...

The _I like them cos they're cool thesis_ is near impossible to scupper
with logic...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:44:11 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: I'm BAAAAACK :) 

Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> Since I now have limited net access, I have decided to
> >rejoin the fray :) Anyone can send me a Reader's
> >Digest condensed version of what I've missed for the
> >last few months? <g>
> 
> We've all given up Traveller and are player Rifts.
> 
> Wanna hear about my 326th level Glitterboy Vampire?

Oh yeah, well my 372nd level Dragon Juicer will
do so much MegaDammage to your wimpy Glitterboy 
that he/she/it/whatever will be nothing but a
memory of a grease spot.  You had better have some
cool stuff though; when I killed this guy called
Odin, or something, all I got was some crummy
spear & an eye patch. [Ducks] :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Hey Vinny, you know what they call a Quarter Pounder?

> > BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
> they
> > call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...

Well, around here we call it a "Hambourgoie" (that's ham-boor-zhwah) until
Louise Beaudoin leaves the room, then we get back to calling it "a Quater
Pounder" or "un Quarter Pounder" like everybody else on the continent. :-) 

(apologies for obscure Quebec political humor...)

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:08:29 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

Nick Bradbeer posted:
>
>>Just the drawing on pg 15 of Supplement 9: Fighting Ships.  Basically, it
>>looks like a box with a ball on the nose and a pair of boxes attached at
>>the rear as 'nacelles'.  Think "squared off version of the USS Enterprise
>>with a Klingon bridge" and you'll be close...
>
>
>Sounds like a Chrysanthemum to me. That's been published by GDW (in
>Brilliant Lances). But it's unstreamlined, those nacelles are light PAWs
>now and it requires tanker support hand has a crew of 54.
>
>Well, I envisaged the Fer-de-Lance as fulfilling a similar role to the
>Chrysanthemum, but operating on the frontier away from tanker support.

Nick, you're right.

The Chrysanthemum-class Destroyer Escort is the pseudo-Trek design with
the ball up front. The two "nacelles" are actually Particular Accelerator
weapon bays.

I've some very nice deckplans for it which I found on a Star Trek site
I've finally cleaned up the text on the graphics (pretty garbled).

The Fer-de-Lance is a missile corvette designed and published by FASA
as part of their Adventure Class Ships series. Nice deckplans, too.

David

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:57:16 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

> > I'd like a Half-Kilo with cheese, a large coke and fries.
> >
> > ...a half-kilo of coke and some cheesy-fries?
>
> Half a kilo with cheese??????????  That sucker'd weigh over a *pound*.
>
> I seriously doubt they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there a '112 Grammer'.

Sorry, backwards math... just goes to show how pathetic us Americans can be
when it comes to metric/american conversions.  ;)

Oh well... it was funny in my head... lots of things are funny in my head...
listen... I can hear the laughter now...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+(++) !tn t4 ru+ ge>+ !3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls(+) pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:30:47 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: burgers

Shawn Campbell writes:
>> BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
they
>> call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...

>I'd like a Half-Kilo with cheese, a large coke and fries.
>...a half-kilo of coke and some cheesy-fries?

	You've got quite an appetite! I rarely enter McDo's, but the
	only term that I remember hearing is "quarter-pounder." Most
	Canadians tend to use Imperial units for certain things, like
	cooking, people's sizes, and wood dimensions.

	ObTrav: Some planets may use interesting combinations of units
	from various nearby societies.

Peez
	

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:30:23 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

- ----------
> From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
> To: 'traveller@mpgn.com'
> Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
> Date: Friday, 23 July, 1999 4:08 PM
> 
> Nick Bradbeer posted:
> >

> >Sounds like a Chrysanthemum to me. That's been published by GDW (in
> >Brilliant Lances). But it's unstreamlined, those nacelles are light PAWs
> >now and it requires tanker support hand has a crew of 54.
> >
> >Well, I envisaged the Fer-de-Lance as fulfilling a similar role to the
> >Chrysanthemum, but operating on the frontier away from tanker support.
> 
> Nick, you're right.
> 
> The Chrysanthemum-class Destroyer Escort is the pseudo-Trek design with
> the ball up front. The two "nacelles" are actually Particular Accelerator
> weapon bays.

Fighting Ships gives it PA turrets, not bays.  

> I've some very nice deckplans for it which I found on a Star Trek site
> I've finally cleaned up the text on the graphics (pretty garbled).
> 
> The Fer-de-Lance is a missile corvette designed and published by FASA
> as part of their Adventure Class Ships series. Nice deckplans, too.

I don't think so.  The Fer De Lance is the destroyer escort on the page
next to the Chrysanthemum in Fighting Ships.  It's awfully ugly; a ball
with a box sticking out the back and two smaller boxes slapped on the sides
of the main box.  It looks like something you could build with Legos.  The
missile corvette in FASA's Adventure-class ships is the Valor-class. 

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:45:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?



>BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France they
>call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...


It's not just the French. When I was in Germany they called it the Royale as
well.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:23:02 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Dom wrote :
- ----------------
Kind of like the problem that the
Bizmarck had with Swordfish Bombers, but reversed.
- ------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, I remember that story.  William L. Shire, I believe wrote the best
account.  The Bismark was supposedly immune to torpedoes (like those carried
on the swordfish) but just like the Titanic was un-sinkable...:)  BTW,
anyone know what happened to the Tirpitz, sister ship to the Bismark?

As far as traveller, how would you design a ship that could take the type of
punishment that the Bismark took?  Is this even possible?

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:19:33 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)

Monopoly?  Well, if you have enough people over to make it
interesting.  But what about Traveller Diplomacy?

We're starting a regular Diplomacy game at my company.
Doing some research on the web (its been a while since I
played), I found all these crazy variants.  Shouldn't be
too difficult to make a diplomacy map for the Spinward
Marches. Besides, if there can be Pern and Middle Earth
variants, a Traveller one is long overdue!

This is the best site I have found.

 http://www.igo.org/DipPouch/

Anyone else interested in developing this idea?

Bloo



"William F. Hostman" wrote:

> >       Hmm ... maybe the list should create a Monopoly equivalent for
> >inveterate Travellers ... inputs?
> >
> >       Boardwalk =
>                 Sylea
> >       Park Avenue =
>         Park Place = Terra
> >       Free Parking =
>         no-fee starport
> >       Railroads = Subsidized Merchant Routes?
>                 no, Tukera, Akerut, Oberlindes, Makidhadrun
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:39:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: I'm BAAAAACK :)

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote
> 
> > Since I now have limited net access, I have decided to
> > >rejoin the fray :) Anyone can send me a Reader's
> > >Digest condensed version of what I've missed for the
> > >last few months? <g>
> >
> > We've all given up Traveller and are player Rifts.
> >
> > Wanna hear about my 326th level Glitterboy Vampire?
> 
> Oh yeah, well my 372nd level Dragon Juicer will
> do so much MegaDammage to your wimpy Glitterboy
> that he/she/it/whatever will be nothing but a
> memory of a grease spot.  You had better have some
> cool stuff though; when I killed this guy called
> Odin, or something, all I got was some crummy
> spear & an eye patch. [Ducks] :)

Well, you did better than the Knights of the Dinner Table.  BTW, you
should have hauled off the Gates of Valhalla (those suckers are _solid
gold_).


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:51:57 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Jory Earl wrote:
> 
> Dom wrote :
> ----------------
> Kind of like the problem that the
> Bizmarck had with Swordfish Bombers, but reversed.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hey, I remember that story.  William L. Shire, I believe wrote the best
> account.  The Bismark was supposedly immune to torpedoes (like those carried
> on the swordfish) but just like the Titanic was un-sinkable...:)  BTW,
> anyone know what happened to the Tirpitz, sister ship to the Bismark?

TIRPITZ hung out in Norwegian fjords, trying to hide from the RAF, until
the RAF dropped a few 12,000 lb. bombs on him.  C'est la guerre....
> 
> As far as traveller, how would you design a ship that could take the type of
> punishment that the Bismark took?  Is this even possible?

Sure, it's possible.  Heck, I've designed some truly _hideous_ flying
safes, using FF&S2.  Besides, BISMARCK wasn't all that tough a ship 
See the following URL for a comparison of BISMARCK and his
contemporaries:

http://www.skypoint.com/members/jbp/baddest.htm

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:25:41 GMT
From: mdeck@quintcom.com
Subject: Re: Crimes against Sentience

Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Oh, and my personal favorite the way the nurse wakes you
> ever hour when you have had a concussion. Never been able
> to sleep in a hospitable.

Ahhh... the head and spinal injuries unit in hospitals..
How about:
 - Urinal catheta infections
 - The <ping> and <beep> of life support machines in the middle of the
night
 - The distraught sobs of mother whose sons end up in there after
drink-and-drive accidents
 - The screams and wails of people that wake up after a stroke to find out
they have brain damage, cry themselves to sleep, and wake up to discover it
all over again.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:58:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Crimes against Sentience

At 10:25 PM 7/23/99 GMT, you wrote:

> - The <ping> and <beep> of life support machines in the middle of the
>night

Much better is the wailing of your medicine pump when it runs dry at 0130
just after you've finally manged to get to sleep with IV's in both arms and
a lumbar puncter in your hip.

> - The distraught sobs of mother whose sons end up in there after
>drink-and-drive accidents

To be honest, It'd be preferable to the woman who's husband was in the bed
next to me.  She was on the phone for hours at a time.  To *China*  So she
had to talk REAL LOUD.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:32:14 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighters

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
>
>	Very good point. The only difference that I can see is that
>	the Death Star had trouble targeting fighters. Presumably,
>	the attacking fighters were capable of causing enough harm,
>	at least to surface systems, to motivate the Death Star
>	officers to launch their own fighters in defense. Do any of
>	the incarnations of Traveller include rules that make it 
>	difficult for heavier weapons to target small, agile, targets
>	at close range? (my own house rules have a half-a***d system
>	to cover this)

Well, they shouldnt have such rules, because at close range (say, 50 000 km
or less) fighters arent small enough or agile enough to stop a laser
hitting them, due to the good old d = 0.5*a*t^2 function determining how
far the fighter can get away from it's known position (if a laser cant hit
a known position at close range all the time, then it's going to be
absolutely useless at long range).

Fighters also generally dont have enough armour to absorb laser fire,
unlike real warships, and tend not to have a lot of sandcasters either.

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:46:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Fighters

Ian or Katts writes:

> Well, they shouldnt have such rules, because at close range (say, 50 000 km
> or less) fighters arent small enough or agile enough to stop a laser
> hitting them, due to the good old d = 0.5*a*t^2 function determining how
> far the fighter can get away from it's known position.

It's within the range of reason to assume that for a laser to focus to a new
targeting solution takes some amount of time, and that this amount of time is
proportional to the size of the primary mirror; its not like we have any solid
information about grav focusing anyway.  Assume half a second and even at
extremely close range a 6G fighter can move by 7 meters; a 10 dt fighter only
needs to shift by 3-4 meters (depending on shape) to dodge.

Of course, it's also within the range of reason to assume that lasers don't
work that way...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:48:06 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request

>From: igor@truserve.com
>Subject: Ship Designations: A request
>
>Since I am not up on naval information, I was wondering if someone could
clairify 
>something for me -
>
>I'm in the process of designing some ships for my campaign, and I'm
striving to 
>be "realistic" - avoiding the whole "The Kinunir is a cruiser?" debacle...
>
>What are the definitions, either tonnage or mission, for the following:
>  Destroyer
>  Frigate
>  Escort
>  Patrol Boat
>
>I have a 2,400 displacement ton ship, armed with a PA bay, Missile Bay, 3
laser 
>turrets, and a sand turret. It is fast when compared to its opponents (3G
- - which is 
>reasonably fast for a low-tech campaign) and has Jump-3 and heavy armor.
>
>What possible missions/description would such a class support?
>

In my book, if it has a spinal mount, it's a cruiser or bigger. If it has a
bay weapon, it's a destroyer. Otherwise, it's a frigate if it can do four
gees and jump-3, an escort otherwise. Patrol boats are non-jump escorts.


>Anotehr question - how many marines should be on a smaller ship, if the
craft's stated 
>purpose is _not_ troop transport. Don't all naval vessels (US, that is)
have at least a 
>few marines for security and such?

I think 2-3 per 100 dtons displacement is about right.

You might do what the RN did in the Dreadnought era, and assign a bay or
set of turrets to the Marines. Presumably they would be crosstrained.

>
>Thanks a bunch...

Anything for Andy Atkins, Guru of Traveller spreadsheets :)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:29:14 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Online Bookstore?

Are there any online bookstores or other stores where one can purchase 
Traveller books online?  Like 'First In', T4 stuff, GURPS stuff, -- you
know, the books that are still in print.  (I know the out-of-print ones are
hard to find, and I plan on keeping my CT stuff for a long time...)

Thank you very much.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:32:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> >From: igor@truserve.com
> >Subject: Ship Designations: A request
> >
> >Since I am not up on naval information, I was wondering if someone could clairify
> >something for me -
> >
> >I'm in the process of designing some ships for my campaign, and I'm striving to
> >be "realistic" - avoiding the whole "The Kinunir is a cruiser?" debacle...
> >
> >What are the definitions, either tonnage or mission, for the following:
> >  Destroyer
> >  Frigate
> >  Escort
> >  Patrol Boat
> >
> >I have a 2,400 displacement ton ship, armed with a PA bay, Missile Bay, 3 laser
> >turrets, and a sand turret. It is fast when compared to its opponents (3G - which is
> >reasonably fast for a low-tech campaign) and has Jump-3 and heavy armor.

Just out of curiosity:  what TL is this campaign's setting?  (I might
have some useful designs on hand, to employ as enemy craft [designed by
Another Mind (tm)].)
> >
> >What possible missions/description would such a class support?
> >
> 
> In my book, if it has a spinal mount, it's a cruiser or bigger. If it has a
> bay weapon, it's a destroyer. Otherwise, it's a frigate if it can do four
> gees and jump-3, an escort otherwise. Patrol boats are non-jump escorts.

A caveat:  Using the Akins FF&S2 spreadsheet, there is a type of weapon
mount known as "light spinal mount"; I would consider these in the same
category as bay-type weapons (their primary advantage over bays is that,
as linear mounts, they are less susceptible to combat damage than
toroidal bay mounts).  Note that the smallest spinal mounts in HG2
require 1000 dtons (Code E, G, and J meson gun mounts).

I tend to place the minimum size of ships designated as "cruisers" at
10,000 dtons, with a spinal mount.  Smaller spinal-mount-equipped ships
are usually classified as destroyers, since their "spinal mounts" are
basically equivalent to long, narrow bay mounts.  Maximum size for true
cruisers (in our M:1100 game) is 100 kdt.  Larger ships are capital
assets (either battlecruisers or battleships).

Note that in earlier eras, capital ships tend to be smaller than in
M:1100.  Two examples:  During the Interstellar Wars, a typical Terran
battleship was about 30,000 dtons.  In M:0, the CORONATION-class
battleship was 90,000 dtons.  In M:1100, both of these ships would be
considered cruiser-sized.
> 
> >Anotehr question - how many marines should be on a smaller ship, if the craft's stated
> >purpose is _not_ troop transport. Don't all naval vessels (US, that is) have at least a
> >few marines for security and such?
> 
> I think 2-3 per 100 dtons displacement is about right.

HG2 uses the range of from 3/100 dtons to 3/1000 dtons.
> 
> You might do what the RN did in the Dreadnought era, and assign a bay or
> set of turrets to the Marines. Presumably they would be crosstrained.

FF&S2 seems to assume that ship's troops are used to supplement the
maintenance crew of the vessel.  Either way works.
> 
> >
> >Thanks a bunch...
> 
<<snip>>
> 
- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:10:32 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

At 05:23 PM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey, I remember that story.  William L. Shire, I believe wrote the best
>account.  The Bismark was supposedly immune to torpedoes (like those carried
>on the swordfish) but just like the Titanic was un-sinkable...:)  BTW,
>anyone know what happened to the Tirpitz, sister ship to the Bismark?
>
The Tirpitz spent part of the war hiding in a fjord in Norway. The Allies
tried to sink it with mini-subs (there was a movie) but finally ended up
just sending heavy bombers after it while it was docked until they did
enough damage that it sunk.


Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:43:30 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Online Bookstore?

Justice Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> Are there any online bookstores or other stores where one can purchase
> Traveller books online?  Like 'First In', T4 stuff, GURPS stuff, -- you
> know, the books that are still in print.  (I know the out-of-print ones are
> hard to find, and I plan on keeping my CT stuff for a long time...)
> 
> Thank you very much.

I'd recommend:

http://www.titangames.com/

Their current catalog lists the following Traveller products:

MegaTraveller 
               Player's Manual (211) [$9, NM], [$8, VF] 
               Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$11, NM], [$9.5, VF], [$7,
Fa] 
Misc. Science-Fiction Board Games 
               Imperium (0205) [$15, Boxed-N] 
Traveller 
               Alien Module 1 - Aslan (254) [$26, NM], [$24, VF] 
               Alien Module 8 - Darrians (264) [$35, NM] 
               Traveller Boxed Set (digest sized) (301) [$13, Box
G-Contents F] 
               Traveller Boxed Set (3rd printing, picture on back,
digest sized)
               (301) [$50, Boxed-N] 
               Understanding Traveller (?) [$6.5, NM] 
               Book 1 - Characters and Combat [$7.5, NM], [$5.5, F],
[$4.5, G] 
               Book 2 - Starships [$7.5, NM], [$6.5, VF], [$5.5, F],
[$4.5, G] 
               Book 3 - Worlds and Adventures [$7.5, NM], [$6.5, VF],
[$5.5, F]
               Book 4 - Mercenary (304) [$15, NM] 
               Book 6 - Scouts (337) [$15, M] 
               Suppl. 2 - Animal Encounters (305) [$12, NM], [$7, VF],
[$4, Fa] 
               Suppl. 6 - 76 Patrons (315) [$7.5, F] 
               Adv. 2 - Research Station Gamma (311) [$10, F] 
               Adv. 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station (339) [$13, M],
(tape on
               spine)[$11.5, NM], [$11, VF] 
               Double Adv. 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows (312) [$13, M],
[$12.5,
               NM], [$12, VF] 
               Double Adv. 2 - Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face
(313)
               [$10.5, F] 
               Double Adv. 3 - Death Station/The Argon Gambit (321)
[$15, M],
               [$14, NM], [$12.5, VF] 
               Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$13, NM],
               [$12, VF] 
               Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest
(331) [$13,
               M], [$12, NM], (tape on spine)[$11.5, NM], [$11, VF] 
Traveller: The New Era 
               Traveller: The New Era Rulebook (softbound) (300) [$19.5,
VF] 
               Survival Margin (301) [$9, NM] 
               Smash & Grab (305) [$10, NM], [$9, VF] 
               Players' Forms (306) [$8.5, NM], [$8, VF] 
               Referee's Screen (307) [$11, N], [$10, NM], [$9, VF],
[$8, F] 
               Star Vikings, Personalities of the Reformation Coalition
(315) [$15,
               NM], [$14, VF] 
               Aliens of the Rim, Hivers and Ithklur (318) [$17, NM]
T4: Mark Miller's Traveller 
               The Emperor's Arsenal (1500) [$16, NM] 
               The Naval Architect's Manual (1740) [$16, NM] 

Of course, you can get GURPS:Traveller products at:

http://www.sjgames.com

For older Traveller products not listed by Titan Games, you can always
try Marc Miller's page:

http://members.aol.com/farfuture/Traveller.html

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #887
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 888



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #886
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #886
[OT] Re: Hey Vinny, you know what they call a Quarter Pounder?
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Daylight Savings Time (was Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?)
> Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request
Re: Tag Lines
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Ship designations: a request
Re: Online Bookstore?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885
Re: The Fighter Debate...
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re:  Tag lines
Re: Aging of vehicle designs
Re: Speaking of Ancients 
Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)
RE: > Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request
RE: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Space:1889 the Television series...
Space:1889 the Television series...
Re: I'm BAAAAACK :)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:13:44 -0700
Re: 
Drugs (was Re: Metric & stuff)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:24:33 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #886

<flickering black globe>

Sword Worlder writes:

>>I'm just returned to this digest after a year&1/2 offline, and I'm
>>curious as to which system everyone is using;with Trave there's 
>>certianly room for a lot of different choices.Me, I'm playing pretty
>>much MT,with some stuff cadged from TNE &Marc'sTrav.

   Still using TNE...slight modified in light of 6 years of experience...

>Welcome to the "Slightly more than 50% GURPS Traveller Mailing List", for
>better or worse.

   It is the current system (by default), so naturally the list has a
larger proportion of G:Ters on it.

   This bring up another question...what is the official release date for
the revised Marc Miller's Traveller (aka "T5")?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:54:30 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #886

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Harold D. Hale <hdhale@mindspring.com>
>    Still using TNE...slight modified in light of 6 years of experience...

Good.  Then the whole universe has not been upended by the GURPS Wave.  When
I think of TNE I invariably think of Mr. Hale (and vice versa).  What
projects have you been up to lately?

>    This bring up another question...what is the official release date for
> the revised Marc Miller's Traveller (aka "T5")?

He had mentioned fourth quarter of 1999, but Loren seemed to think that the
success of GURPS Traveller was buying him time to do a more thorough
upgrade.  Marc has been very quiet as of late.  I hear he has several other
irons in the fire, which is fine.  I can wait awhile if it means a better
product.  Sorry if it sounded like I was disparaging GT.  I like the "T"
part, it's just the "G" stuff that turns me off. ;-)


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:11:49 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Hey Vinny, you know what they call a Quarter Pounder?

Charles Collin writes:

>>BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in 
>>France they call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit 
>>weird...

   Blame DeGaulle...ok, maybe the pistol whippings adminstered by the
Germans, but then the EU is suppose to end all that tribal
warfare...somebody fax the Serbs, they missed the meeting....(note to
Europeans without a sense of humor: I'm joking...)

>Well, around here we call it a "Hambourgoie" (that's ham-boor-zhwah) until
>Louise Beaudoin leaves the room, then we get back to calling it "a Quater
>Pounder" or "un Quarter Pounder" like everybody else on the continent. :-) 

   I visited Montreal back in 1995 to attend a conference and watch the
Montreal Grand Prix (Schumacher blew an engine much to my and several
thousand Germans' disappointment, but I digress...) and was very much
impressed by the city and its people.  I knew enough French to read signs
(I didn't spend the entire four years in high school French staring
dreamily at the babe of an instructor I had...ok, yeah I did, but some of
it sunk in somehow) and wouldn't humiliate myself by even trying to speak
it to a native French speaker, but I had no problem getting around and
talking to people--they seemed to be able to switch back and forth from
French to English without effort.

>(apologies for obscure Quebec political humor...)

   Not at all...after seeing Quebec flags in about every other residential
window in the city, I figured it was a matter of time before Quebec tried
to leave Canada.  It hasn't happened, which tells me Quebec is the Texas of
Canada--Canadians first, but always Quebecers, and proud of it.  Any
politican in Quebec who thinks that the people will tolerate an attempt to
recreate New France needs a reality check.

   One outsider's opinion, I'm out....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:12:47 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
>possible ...

Actually Cantor proved a few centuries ago that all N-dimensional spaces
(for N > 0) have the same cardinality. This means there is a one-to-one
mapping between points in 2D and 3D.

Any number of mappings are possible. The one Cantor used, if I restrict it
to a 2D - 3D mapping would be as follows:

Convert all spaces to unit mappings. You can do this by dividing the
position of whatever space you have by the extent of that space. Given a 3D
point with the decimal expansions of its coordinates as follows:

	x1 = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
	y1 = j1 j2 j3 j4 ...
	z1 = k1 k2 k3 k4 ...

Then one mapping to 2D space is:

	x2 = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
	y2 = j1 k1 j2 k2 ...

The problem is that 2D and 3D space are not topologically equivalent. This
means that distances and directions are not preserved by the mapping so,
for example, two points right next to each other in 2D space could end up
on opposite sides of the universe in 3D space. A square (or whatever) in 2D
space could map to a disconnected cloud of points in 3D space.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:59:39 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Daylight Savings Time (was Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?)

>>By the way.  Arizona does not do daylight savings time.  I'm not sure
>>why, but I resent waking up around 5 to 5:30 AM for work and the sun is
>>already up.
>
>
>    Because of the farmers.  And, I do not mind it.  Yes, I live in Arizona.

I wouldn't want to live without daylight savings time. Way up north in
Edmonton, Alberta, in the summer (with daylight savings time) the sun
sets just after 10:00 PM -- and rises just after 5:00 AM. I would not
want to have the sun rising a few minutes after four in the morning.

Of course, I could do without the semi-annual clock changing... but 
if we'd leave it on Daylight time all year, in late December the sun
would rise just before 10:00 am...

ObTrav: how do they reconcile all the clocks and calendars in the
Imperium to the Imperial Standard? If an Imperial Standard Day is
24 hours (ie, the Terran Day), what does a planet do when it has
a rotation of 23.5 hours? If you start with clocks synchronized
so that high noon is at 12:00 Noon, 24 days later "noon" is in the
middle of the night...


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:08:18 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: > Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request

Ian wrote:

> In my book, if it has a spinal mount, it's a cruiser or bigger. If it has
a
> bay weapon, it's a destroyer. Otherwise, it's a frigate if it can do four
> gees and jump-3, an escort otherwise. Patrol boats are non-jump escorts.

Yes, but...correct me if I'm wrong, shouldn't a ship's designation be based
not on its weapon load or size - but on the mission it can/does perform? If
it acts like a destroyer, then it is a destroyer - no matter how large or
small it is. Is this correct?

And if it is correct - then I guess I'm asking: What is the difference
between a Destroyer, Frigate, Escort, Destroyer Escort, etc...

> Anything for Andy Atkins, Guru of Traveller spreadsheets :)

Heh. I'll forgive the mispelling (its Akins - no t. Common mistake) since
you are obviously showing me great respect - although I never did hear back
from the vatican if my canonization (spelling) into sainthood, as the patron
saint of traveller spreadsheets, was ever approved by his holiness. I expect
he's waiting for me to finish the next version (really, I'm working on
it!!!!)

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
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|       so+ zh+ vi+ da+                                              |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++                          |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:29:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tag Lines

In mail you write:

> Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu> writes:
>> 
>> ... Here's a list of my least favorite things:
>> 
>   catheters (or did you already list that one?)

A nurse I used to know would add "folks doped up enough to *remove*
inflated Foley catheters on their own" Messy, *very* messy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:10:38 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

>> lucky I wasn't arrested, given that the only things measured in grams
>> in the US are illegal substances... :)
>
>We're strange about that kinda stuff.
>
>BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France they 
>call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...

I know this might sound mighty strange to you, but a 'Quarter Pounder'
up here is called a 'Quarter Pounder'. 

Of course, they're made with moose meat this far north...

(I'm kidding.)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:19:33 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request

Andrew Akins wrote:
> 
> Ian wrote:
> 
> > In my book, if it has a spinal mount, it's a cruiser or bigger. If it has a
> > bay weapon, it's a destroyer. Otherwise, it's a frigate if it can do four
> > gees and jump-3, an escort otherwise. Patrol boats are non-jump escorts.
> 
> Yes, but...correct me if I'm wrong, shouldn't a ship's designation be based
> not on its weapon load or size - but on the mission it can/does perform? If
> it acts like a destroyer, then it is a destroyer - no matter how large or
> small it is. Is this correct?
> 
> And if it is correct - then I guess I'm asking: What is the difference
> between a Destroyer, Frigate, Escort, Destroyer Escort, etc...

IMTU (set in M:1100):

The differences between the functions of cruisers, destroyers, frigates,
escorts, and patrol boats are rooted in the following concepts (assuming
that most freighters are J-1/M-1):

1.  Non-jump spacecraft intended to detect and engage hostile raiders
within a given area of space are classified as patrol boats.  In
Traveller terms, this refers primarily to SDBs.

2.  Armed starships of up to 2000 dtons, designed with jump capability
equal to that of the escorted freighters, and with sublight performance
equal to or better than that of the escorted freighters, are classified
as escorts (note that merchant cruisers, in the World War II sense, may
fall under this category).

3.  Armed starships of up to 2000 dtons, designed with jump capability
exceeding that of the escorted freighters, and with sublight performance
of at least 3-G, are classified as frigates or destroyer escorts
(depending on local usage [the two terms are equivalent]).

4.  Armed starships of up to 5000 dtons, designed with jump and sublight
performance equal to or greater than the standard for the fleet, are
counted as destroyers.

5.  Armed and armored starships of 10,000 dtons or larger (but no larger
than 100k dtons), carrying a spinal mount, and capable of extended
independent operations, are classed as cruisers.

6.  Any starship with the primary function of launching small craft for
combat is classified as a carrier (if the launch facilities require more
than twice the volume of the ship's armament, this usually indicates
that the ship is a carrier).

7.  Ships not covered in the above guidelines are classified as seems
appropriate to the function of the vessel in question (for example, a
9000 dton ship, with a spinal mount, may best be described as a
destroyer or a cruiser, depending on its intended function and
capabilities; meanwhile, a 4500 dton ship, with performance only equal
to the average merchant ship, will likely be classed as a large escort,
rather than as a frigate or destroyer).

Bottom line:  Patrol boats are non-jump vessels; escorts and frigates
are designed to equal or exceed the performance of merchant ships, and
operate as merchant escorts; destroyers are designed to equal or exceed
the performance of fleet units, and operate either as merchant escorts
or as fleet escorts; and cruisers are fairly large warships, designed to
operate independently if necessary.

Hope this helps....
> 
<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:54:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Online Bookstore?

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Online Bookstore?
...
>http://www.titangames.com/
>
>Their current catalog lists the following Traveller products:

  I believe that you missed their special Sale Items listing off the
main page - that's where you get the Imperium board game for $8 :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:57:16 +0000
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885

>   Last issue Brad was wondering why the (US, I'm guessing) military 
>use maps 
>measured in 1 KM square grids and gauges which read in MPH?
>   Brad,its to give our forces familiarity with the metric system so 
>they'll 
>be able to pick up a map made  ANYWHERE,and  use it effectively when 
>we  make 
>that big push against the rest of the planet.The guages remain in MPH 
>because 
>yanks are comfortable with it.Besides,we'll be imposing our wonderful 
>
>american measurements once we rule the planet:)

Thanks.  That makes sense - I guess.  On my first gun crew the driver was
from Georgia, the gunner (me) from Arizona and the Squad Leader was from
Puerto Rico.  Our Platoon Sergeant was from Samoa and the Platoon Leader
from the Bronx.   We had enough trouble understanding each other's
"english" and then the maps and the track didn't use the same
measurements.  (To make matters worse the cannon measured it's rotation
in "mils")

As far as Traveller goes-how standardized is the language?  Accents,
Slang, etc. could provide interesting plot twists...


Bradley Houston
tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:23:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The Fighter Debate...

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: The Fighter Debate...
...
>But we usually refute that one with the point that aircraft are faster and
>carry weapons capable of hurting a capital ship (eg a torp). In most WW2
>cases several hits were needed with ordnance of a scale similar to capital
>ship weapons to kill them...

  IIRC, sf-consim has fighters (or at least carriers vs battlewagons) in
its FAQ after various repetitions of the debate :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:39:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

> From: brhoust@juno.com
> Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

> Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
> Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
> gallon.

Objection:  Unduly burdensome.  Requires premature disclosure of expert
witness' opinions.  Intrudes on attorney work product.  I instruct the
witness not to answer.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:54:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Tag lines

> From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au
> Subject: Tag lines
> 
> Ooops - forgot to credit my tag line. It actually came from the TML a few
> months back. Thanks to - you know who you are. Sorry I'd give your names but I
> can't find my old digests.
> 
> Anyway, how do you like my additions:
> 
> Schmeissers and Thompsons and Heckler and Kochs
> Lugers and Rugers and quick-shooting Glocks
> Uzis and Ingrams and modern Sterlings
> These are a few of my favourite things.

I wrote that verse.

> When the Zho's strike; or marines land;
> When it hits the fan:
> I simply reload all my favourite things
> and then I get fightin' mad.

Someone else (I, too, don't recall who it was) wrote something like:

Maxims and Gatlings and hoary old Bren guns
Weigh more than somethings and nifty new Sten guns
Full auto something .....
These are a few of my favorite things

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:04:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Aging of vehicle designs

> From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>

>   That 8-track player in your 40 year old air raft may not do you any good 
> if you can't find any 8-tracks to play.

I know this guy on Roup who works out of a little boat that's usually
docked not too far from the starport anyway if you give him a holovid of
a performance he runs it on his holoplayer and records just the sound
components onto 8-track tapes like ten at a time or something which he
sells around the islands.  It's always worth checking in with him when
you visit Roup.  He doesn't pay much for borrowing your holovid but he
always has a big smile and a few bottles of that fish beer they make
which is pretty good at least after you've had two or three and he knows
everybody and where to find anything you're looking for.  Anything. 
Tell him I sent you.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:08:19 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Ancients 

> From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>

> What is Grandfather up to?  He's most likely gotten bored with creating
> pocket universes and has evolved himself ont a higher plain of existence.

Like the dragon in the Beowulf saga, he's evolved to that higher plane
where he realizes the meaning of life, which the dragon shares with
Grendel:  "Find yourself some gold and sit on it."  (From John Gardner's
novel Grendel.)  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:13:43 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)

> From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Ancients Project (Was Speaking of the Ancients)

> with others, science is a social phenomena.  Where are Grandfather's peers,
> not servants?  I eluded that in Grandfather's time there were beings more 
> advanced than the Ancients.  Where have they gone?  Perhaps, they are 
> amongst us and we do not know it.  My theory is that they reside beyond 
> Charted Space.  The Solomani may yet bring something nasty back when they 
> have emarked on their Persus missions.

Or the Zhodani may bring back something from their coreward missions. 
What is that device that they look in for, anyway?  Maybe it's to warn
of the return of the pre-ancients?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:30:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: > Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request

In my TNE variant a destroyer is a vessel of around 2,500 to 3,500 tons
displacement. So is the frigate, the difference is I have frigates having
slower maneuver drive but a heavier energy weapons load.

I do the same thing with corvettes and destroyer escorts, these are around
800 to 1,200 displacement tons with the corvette being slower but capable of
carrying a heavier energy weapons load

Warships of around 400 to less tnah 800 tons I class as sloops smaller than
that they are in general scouts.

The classifications are somewhat vague and vessels were often pushed into
roles for which they were not really designed for example in WW2 the US navy
had a shortage of light cruisers, various Fletcher through Gearing class
destroyers were required to fill the cruiser role as a result.

In TNE the destroyers were around 3,000 tons displacement and had a spinal
particle accelerator.

For larger vessels it does depend on the tech level etc. In my game light
cruisers are larger than 3,000 tons but less then about 8,000 where I start
my smaller heavy cruisers - most of my heavy cruisers are at 10,000 dt and
battleships twice this.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:30:14 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

I think you are actually thinking of the Valor class missile corvette,
originall published by FASA and then brought into Brilliant Lances as a TNE
design.

The Fer-De-Lance was originally a half sister to the Crysanthenum sharing
the same forward structure (A sphere) with a different mid section and aft.
Both classes were rated as Destroyer Escorts

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:33:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Space:1889 the Television series...

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

> I'm not kidding...

Cool!  I'm looking forward to the summer blockbuster movie!  

> Who remembers the Cadillacs & Dinosaurs Cartoon?

I don't remember the cartoon, but I did enjoy the comic book series.  It
reminded me of when I was a little boy playing, basically Cadillacs and
Dinosaurs with my plastic army men and dinosaurs. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:33:42 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Space:1889 the Television series...

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>

> I'm not kidding...

Cool!  I'm looking forward to the summer blockbuster movie!  

> Who remembers the Cadillacs & Dinosaurs Cartoon?

I don't remember the cartoon, but I did enjoy the comic book series.  It
reminded me of when I was a little boy playing, basically, Cadillacs and
Dinosaurs with my plastic army men and dinosaurs. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 03:14:15 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: I'm BAAAAACK :)

Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> boasts:

>when I killed this guy called

>Odin, or something, all I got was some crummy

>spear & an eye patch. [Ducks] 

 Does the eyepatch belong to Odin or the Duck? Be VERY careful what you steal 
from a Duck...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:13:44 -0700
From: "David & Kristin Larson" <davidlarson@home.com>
Subject: Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:13:44 -0700

>BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there? I know in France they
>call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...

It's not just the French. When I was in Germany they called it the Royale as
well.

I remember ordering 'Viertelpfunder mit Kse '. Excuse the spelling, it's
been a long time.

David Larson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 03:30:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: 

- -----Original Message-----
From: David & Kristin Larson <davidlarson@home.com>
To: TML (E-mail) <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 3:23 AM


>
>>BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there? I know in France they
>>call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
>
>It's not just the French. When I was in Germany they called it the Royale
as
>well.
>
>I remember ordering 'Viertelpfunder mit Kse '. Excuse the spelling, it's
>been a long time.


I remember complaining loudly about it to my friend, "Royale? Royale? That
sounds French, not German!" Of course, two years later Pulp Fiction came out
and I chuckled ;)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:57:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Drugs (was Re: Metric & stuff)

> From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Metric & stuff 
 
> ObTrav:  What 'recreational chemicals' are illegal throughout the Imperium,
> and just how heavily are they smuggled?  Steve Perry's 'Matador' series 

I remember talking about this on the list not too long ago.  The
Imperium itself doesn't have any laws about drugs.  Its member states
certainly do (some of them). Sometimes member states ask the Imperium to
help out.  Sometimes the Imperium does.  A nasty problem can arise when
a drug produced in member state A has been made illegal by member state
B, but it is highly desired by people in B.  This is one of those
situations that can lead to governments asking their advisors for
briefings on the Imperial rules of war.

My answers to your questions would then be as follows:  

> What 'recreational chemicals' are illegal throughout the Imperium

It's too complicated to answer.  Maybe some bureaucracy in the Imperium
keeps records of requests for assistance from member states and can sort
that data according whether the requests were for assistance in
enforcing drug laws.  

> and just how heavily are they smuggled?  

Smuggling is the intentional transportation of something to a place
where it is forbidden or the intentional transportation of something to
a place in a manner that is forbidden, or both.

Thus if B in the example above forbids possession of the drug from A,
intentionally transporting it to B is smuggling.  If B requires that any
shipments of the drug be declaraed and pay a duty upon entry, then
smuggling it to B would mean bringing it in in some other manner, like
drop from space.  

Inasmuch as just about anything could be an illegal or tariffed item on
any given world, the "transportation" element of smuggling could be
happening every time a person, pallet, or container crosses the
extrality line, or, even more so, every time a starship makes planetfall
away from the starport.  That's still not smuggling, because it lacks
the "intentional" element -- but that's an argument the PCs will have to
make to the judge, not to the arresting officers.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #888
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 889



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

real world travelling
Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)
Re:  Daylight Savings Time
I must be tired
languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: Starports
Re: Ship Designations: A request
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #886
Re: Ship Designations: A request
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Time (was Re: Daylight Savings Time)
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: Drugs 
Re: I must be tired
G:T Alien Races II
Alien Races 2
Re: Ship designations: a request
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:11:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: real world travelling

I'll be in Boise, Idaho for much of next week.  If any TML member would
like to meet face to face there, please email me off list.  

Ob Traveller:  This trip is a bit of an adventure, although not in the
Far Future.  I'm going to try to get my father's old wheeled vehicle,
which has been sitting in a garage for a couple of years, functional,
and then drive it back to California across the Nevada desert.  I have
no mech, elec, nor j-o-t skills, but I think I'm at wheeled vehicle -3
as far as actually using one goes.  I think I'll be applying my admin
and liaison skills a bit on this trip.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:26:20 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

> We're starting a regular Diplomacy game at my company.
> Doing some research on the web (its been a while since I
> played), I found all these crazy variants.  Shouldn't be
> too difficult to make a diplomacy map for the Spinward
> Marches. Besides, if there can be Pern and Middle Earth
> variants, a Traveller one is long overdue!

The diplomacy map should be the general area map.  Then the players
would be Imperial, Solomani, Aslan, Zhodani, Vargr, K'kree, and Hiver. 
That's a convenient seven, just like Diplomacy.  Then you have to assign
supply centers and regions for movement.  It could make a cool strategic
game.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:55:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Daylight Savings Time

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> Subject: Daylight Savings Time (was Re: Which starship construction/combat
> rules preferred?)

> ObTrav: how do they reconcile all the clocks and calendars in the
> Imperium to the Imperial Standard? If an Imperial Standard Day is
> 24 hours (ie, the Terran Day), what does a planet do when it has
> a rotation of 23.5 hours? If you start with clocks synchronized
> so that high noon is at 12:00 Noon, 24 days later "noon" is in the
> middle of the night...

This is the tough, technical part of the job of the Office of Calendar
Compliance.

Some worlds don't worry about this issue at all, of course:  Asteroids
just follow Imperial time, as can artificial, enclosed space stations
and the like.  

Every other world rotates around its access at its own speed.  This can
really add atmosphere to a world, but requires some work from the
referee.  There is a Poul Anderson story where Dominic Flandry is on a
world with either a very long or very short period of rotation, and
everybody kind of cat-naps for part of the day.  

That's really how it would be, too.  Solomani got used to a 24 hour
cycle over some hundreds of thousands of years.  Vilani got used to a
different cycle (30-something hours; see Vilani and Vargr); Zhodani to
still another cycle.  I don't think that several generations on a world
will make us conform to its cycle.  It would take much, much longer.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 00:56:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: I must be tired

every world rotates around its axis at its own speed
access ... must be bed time

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:05:02 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

> From: brhoust@juno.com
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885
 
> As far as Traveller goes-how standardized is the language?  Accents,
> Slang, etc. could provide interesting plot twists...

This is another recurring subject on the TML.  Do we have electronic
translators that translate everything that is being said into whatever
we prefer to hear?  Do they do that primarily by database matching or
primarily by following linguistic rules and guessing from context, much
as humans (and at least some other sophonts) do with languages?  What do
we hear when the translator isn't working?  

How much does telecommunications help standardize language across the
Imperium (as opposed to upon any single world) given the time lag in
interstellar travel?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:22:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com> writes:

>>Nick Munn (some list Great Old Ones will remember him) did a ballpark
>>design for Ton Vorn, the Sylean orbital city which is huge! Although Grav
>>Tech was possible, as it probably started pre-TL12, we discussed and
>>decided to base it on rotational pseudo-grav, with some newer parts grav
>>plated.
>
>Is this design available somewhere?

Not at present, although we hope to make it available if it makes the cut
for the second set of LBB style adventures to be published by BITS.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:22:23 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship Designations: A request

From:           	igor@truserve.com Date sent:      	Fri, 23 Jul 99 
18:34:55 +0000 

> Since I am not up on naval information, I was wondering if someone could clairify 
> something for me -

> I'm in the process of designing some ships for my campaign, and I'm striving to 
> be "realistic" - avoiding the whole "The Kinunir is a cruiser?" debacle...

> What are the definitions, either tonnage or mission, for the following:
>   Destroyer
>   Frigate
>   Escort
>   Patrol Boat

Can't be done. Naval designations are extremely maliable and change with 
frightening/amusing regularity. What was a frigate one day can be a destroyer 
the next and a patrol boat after that. The terms all depend on when, where and 
who. Take my own ideas for the Interstellar Wars (can be found at 
http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/promrise/ships/tcshptyp.htm) for 
instance. Under this scheme, what would be called a Cruiser in M:1100 is 
called a Frigate; same role, different name. And on top of these genuine 
differences are deliberate politically inspired misnomers, like the new Japanese 
"support ship". Honest Govn'r that big flat area on top's just to allow quick 
handling of cargo, and it just made sense to put all the superstructure off to 
starboard. The large full length deck below, a vehicle deck, honest. And the 
large lifts linking the "vehicle" deck with topside, well we might want to move 
the "vehicles" in a hurry. A carrier, nah never, would I lie to you gov. 

However all that being said there are some terms which can be useful. They are 
determined mostly by mission and tend to be somewhat vague and fuzzy 
around the edges 

Captial Ships Large ships designed for the specific purpose of meeting enemy 
warships in battle and defeating them. They may have other functions but they 
are more or less incidential. In peacetime, you send them in to show that 
you're not messing about. Names used: Battleship, Battlecruiser, Star 
Destroyer, Deathstar, Battlestar etc. 

Cruising ships Ships designed for long range independent operations. By 
neccessity are not as strong in combat as a captial ship, but have it over them 
when it somes to endurance. There intended roles are reconnaissance and 
commerce warfare (both raiding and protecting). Names used: Cruiser, Frigate, 
Raider, Hunter etc. 

Fleet Escorts These ships are designed to support capital ships. Far smaller 
than their charges. Armed with a weapon that can do 'real' damage a capital 
ship. Their prime role is to threaten the enemy battleline and limit their tactical 
options; and to neutralise enemy fleet escorts to prevent them doing the same. 
They don't have to be able to kill a capital ship, but must be able to do enough 
to be taken seriously. Also used to finish off cripples. Some larger ones may 
be capable of functioning as limited cruising ships. Names used: Destroyer, 
Frigate, Fleet Escort etc. 

Patrol Ships Designed for patrol work and escorting merchants in low threat 
areas (protecting them from Fleet Escorts). The peacetime workhorses of the 
fleet. Will be designed with good endurance and low operating costs in mind. 
These ships are not intended to stand in battle but may be sufficently well 
armed to scare off a Fleet Escort. Most navies will go for a 'High-Low' mix with 
these, having a small number of well armed examples capable of holding their 
own with a Fleet Escort for awhile and a lot more inexpensive examples for 
general grunt work. Its important to note that since there is no submarine
equvilent in Traveller, the role of convoy escort will probably not evolve.
However, these ships will be useful against small raiders (eg pirates).
ames used: Destroyer Escort, Frigate, Corvette, Sloop, Escort etc. 

Carriers Ships intended to carry other vessels into combat. Generally make 
poor combat ships themselves, concentating on limited defensive capacity and 
maximum carrying capacity. Usually rely on supporting vessels for defense. 
Names Used: Carrier, Tender, Deathstar etc. 

> I have a 2,400 displacement ton ship, armed with a PA bay, Missile Bay, 3 laser 
> turrets, and a sand turret. It is fast when compared to its opponents (3G - which is 
> reasonably fast for a low-tech campaign) and has Jump-3 and heavy armor.
 > What possible missions/description would such a class support?

I'd say it fits into the high capacity Patrol Ship or Fleet Escort model. 

> Anotehr question - how many marines should be on a smaller ship, if the craft's stated 
> purpose is _not_ troop transport. Don't all naval vessels (US, that is) have at least a 
> few marines for security and such?

As a rule of thumb, I restrict Marines to Fleet Escort and above (roughly 
1% to 5% of the crew), though I do put them on some high end Patrol 
Ships. 



Andrew etc
http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/
    Listening to way to much Dave Brubeck

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:34:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

"Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>Dom wrote :
>- ----------------
>Kind of like the problem that the
>Bizmarck had with Swordfish Bombers, but reversed.
>- ------------------------------------------------------------>
>Hey, I remember that story.  William L. Shire, I believe wrote the best
>account.  The Bismark was supposedly immune to torpedoes (like those carried
>on the swordfish) but just like the Titanic was un-sinkable...:)

The reason the Swordfishes actually made the attac run was that they were
slower than the targeting aids on the Bizmarck's AA allowed for. So the
gunners ended up 'switching to manual' but 'using the  force didn't work'.

>anyone know what happened to the Tirpitz, sister ship to the Bismark?

IIRC, it was bombed several times using Barnes Wallis' Tall Boy and
Grandslam enormous bombs. And it was also sabotaged by an attack using
midget submarines by the RN. I can't remember which happened first, or
which was most successful. I can't remember if it was used for nuclear
weapons tests like the Prinz Eugen.

>As far as traveller, how would you design a ship that could take the type of
>punishment that the Bismark took?  Is this even possible?

Hmm. Take a TL15 ship and ramp the armour to max (TL+3 IIRC for
non-asteroids), add in the best Meson screens, nuclear dampers and
sandcasters and you're on your way to something which will take high levels
of punishment. (Bk 5 isn't to hand so I may have the limits for armour out
a bit). Also make it big to help ignore criticals...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:36:03 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:

>Monopoly?  Well, if you have enough people over to make it
>interesting.  But what about Traveller Diplomacy?
<snip>
>Anyone else interested in developing this idea?

Yes. What's the plan?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:42:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #886

"Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>writes:
>He had mentioned fourth quarter of 1999, but Loren seemed to think that the
>success of GURPS Traveller was buying him time to do a more thorough
>upgrade.  Marc has been very quiet as of late.  I hear he has several other
>irons in the fire, which is fine.

There was something on RPG.net about him doing some work for the company
who publish the Star Trek RPGs. ISTR it's the same people who will publish
Dune..

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:06:29 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship Designations: A request

igor@truserve.com wrote:

>Since I am not up on naval information, I was wondering if someone could 
>clairify 
>something for me -
>
>I'm in the process of designing some ships for my campaign, and I'm striving to 
>be "realistic" - avoiding the whole "The Kinunir is a cruiser?" debacle...
>
>What are the definitions, either tonnage or mission, for the following:
>  Destroyer
>  Frigate
>  Escort
>  Patrol Boat

Depends on `when' and who.

Looking at today's navies, the RN classifies ships by role. A Destroyer
is a seagoing escort ship specialised in area anti-air warfare; a
frigate is a seagoing escort ship specialised in anti-submarine warfare;
`escort' is a general term for destroyers and frigates; and Patrol
vessels are smaller craft, usually assigned to coastal duties.

The USN classifies ships by size. Cruisers are big, multirole ships.
Destroyers are medium size, medium capability ships with a bias towards
one warfare speciality, but with some capability in others. Frigates are
small, cheap escorts.

I would suggest that you look at WWII definitions for comparison with
traveller:

Battleship: Ship with heavy armament, and with armour that protects it
from a ship with similar armament. For fighting fleet actions and for
bombarding enemy positions.

Battlecruiser: Like a battleship, but sacrifices some armour for speed.
Used to hunt down enemy cruiser squadrons (which it should still
overmatch); and as a heavy scout for battleship squadrons.

Cruiser: Armoured ship with a medium armament. Capable on independent
action.

Destroyer: Unarmoured ship with light gun armament. Fast. Used in
squadrons, either to fight enemy destroyer squadrons; to attack capital
ships (that's battleships and cruisers) with torpedoes; or to screen
friendly capital ships from light warships.

Frigate: Unarmoured ship with light gun armament. Not as fast as a
destroyer. Used to escort convoys of cargo or troop ships.

Corvette: Unarmoured ship with minimal armament. Slow. Used to escort
convoys. Cheap and nasty.

For traveller purposes, most of these definitions are fine. You'll need
to come up with a way for destroyers to hurt capital ships, though. I
suggest that `Escort' is used for an unarmoured ship with very light
armament, but designed for fleet rather than convoy duties.

>I have a 2,400 displacement ton ship, armed with a PA bay, Missile Bay, 3 laser 
>turrets, and a sand turret. It is fast when compared to its opponents (3G - 
>which is 
>reasonably fast for a low-tech campaign) and has Jump-3 and heavy armor.
>
>What possible missions/description would such a class support?

Depends on the tech level et al. If 2400 tons is a big ship at the time,
it's probably a cruiser.

>Anotehr question - how many marines should be on a smaller ship, if the craft's 
>stated 
>purpose is _not_ troop transport. Don't all naval vessels (US, that is) have at 
>least a 
>few marines for security and such?

No. MARDETs are less and less common these days. (I mean, how much of a
security risk is there to a warship at sea, and even if someone does try
something the crew have some weapons).

Again, the size of a traveller MARDET would depend on the ship's
mission.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 06:26:31 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Dom Wrote :
- ---------------
Hmm. Take a TL15 ship and ramp the armour to max (TL+3 IIRC for
non-asteroids), add in the best Meson screens, nuclear dampers and
sandcasters and you're on your way to something which will take high levels
of punishment. (Bk 5 isn't to hand so I may have the limits for armour out
a bit). Also make it big to help ignore criticals...
- ------------------------------------------------------------

A healthy dose of luck would help as well.  If memory serves, a lot of the
Bismark's mucking about unharmed was due to just plain bad luck on the part
of the British.  They even once attacked one of thier own ships!
(Sheffield?  or was it Norfolk or Sufolk?  Seems to me one of those two were
always running from a fight anyway.  :) )

It was actually a lucky strike by a last swordfish attack that turned the
tide for the Bismark.  As you know, she was making sail for
german-coltrolled waters and a last minute torpedo wrecked her rudders
making her circle and head back towards the british homefleet.  Wasn't it
Capt. Vian's destroyer group and the torpedo cruiser 'Dorsetshire'
(spelling?) that finally finished her off?

ObTrav :  Imagine re-creating a battle similiar to this during a long gaming
session.  With all the odd things in space like nebulas and asteroide fields
and the like, it sounds like a very exciting game.  Has anyone done this?
Sure, its borrowing from history, but some of the best SF was taken from
history.  Prime example being George Lucas's Star Wars saga.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 06:48:27 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

Glen asked :
- --------------
This is another recurring subject on the TML.  Do we have electronic
translators that translate everything that is being said into whatever
we prefer to hear?  Do they do that primarily by database matching or
primarily by following linguistic rules and guessing from context, much
as humans (and at least some other sophonts) do with languages?  What do
we hear when the translator isn't working?

How much does telecommunications help standardize language across the
Imperium (as opposed to upon any single world) given the time lag in
interstellar travel?
- ---------------------

Translators are good for a pinch, but you really need to know the language
(if possible).  A translator can only convert words and syntax, it can't
portray the subtle racial or cultural nuances that may make diplomacy a
critical issue.  For instance, a person meets a vargr for the first time.
He may make a remark to his buddy like, "hey, he resembles a dog, doesn't
he?".  Imagine the translator the vargr has picking that up, analyzing the
syntax, and deciding to use the vargr word for "lower class life-form,
mindless noise-making animal".  Needless to say, the two 'guys' don't
understand why they're suddenly facing a Gauss Rifle on fully auto.  :)
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:15:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Time (was Re: Daylight Savings Time)

In mail you write:

> ObTrav: how do they reconcile all the clocks and calendars in the
> Imperium to the Imperial Standard? If an Imperial Standard Day is
> 24 hours (ie, the Terran Day), what does a planet do when it has
> a rotation of 23.5 hours? If you start with clocks synchronized
> so that high noon is at 12:00 Noon, 24 days later "noon" is in the
> middle of the night...

Part of this has already been "decided". The day on Mars is something
like 30 minutes longer than the day on Earth. 

So, data from probes like Viking and Sojourner had to be stored in
terms of local days. They "invented" the term "sol" (probably derived
from "solar day" ie the average period between sunrise and the next
sunrise). 

So the local day will be "one sol" regardless of what planet you are
on. Different planets will have different length sols. "One day" will
refer to the standard Imperial day of 24 hours. 

Currently, times inside Martian sols are tracked in hours, minutes,
seconds, etc. That's ok for scientific data. But it won't be
acceptable for anyplace people live. 

Things like tiome zones are needed for inhabited planets. And to make
them work, the sol has to be divided up into an *integral* number of
subdivisions. No fractional parts left over. I could go into a long
explanation as to why, but for now, just trust me. 

And you *don't* want to call these subdivisions of a sol "hours", that
can lead to confusions between standard hours and the local unit. It'd
be inconvenient to find out that your "4 hour" air supply was 4 "local
hours" (which are only 40 minutes long) when you are 3 *standard* hours
out from base. 

Me, I'm still trying to decide whether to call them "stans" (stolens
from some SF author or another), "duras" (stolen from David Brin), or
"chrons" (my own invention). Let's use "chrons" for now.

You want a whole number of chrons in a sol (to avoid time zones getting
*really* messy). And you want the number of chrons in a day to be
easily divisible a lot of differewnt ways, so as to make dividing the
sol up into shifts simpler (Who wants to deal with a shift that is 3.75
chrons long?)

Dividing the chron into smaller units probably isn't necessary. 3.5
chrons is just as easy as 3 chrons xxx stans.

So folks may use hours, minutes, seconds *and* chrons. Sort of like
English and metric.

As for synching clocks between worlds, you use a bit of math and *radio*
time signals. You check what the time signal from another world says,
and how far away it is, and you now "know" what time it is. Between
settled worlds you'd establish a radio or laser link and echo their time
signal with a fixed "loop delay". That way they can tell how far away
they are and calculate the time lag. Then they just need to set up some
atomic clocks and just use the time signal as a cross check.

You can't just ship an atomic clock between stars because it's already
been established that the duration of a jump as measured on the ship
*doesn't* always match the duration as measured by the outside world.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:09:50 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

This may have been mentioned already but there's a spec for the translator
device in World Builders Handbook (and probably one of its predecessors). At
TL14 you get a pocket sized unit that communicates with a commdot. Every
supported language requires a database, you can get 6 databases in a device
(presumably one has to be Galanglic). It supports add-ons to understand
communications by smell, UHF/ULF, light, gesture etc.

According to the spec the translator did not pick up nuances - you'd do better
with a high-end translator robot however.

Those DGP equipment sheets were great, weren't they? Sigh.
- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:02:11 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

There was a decent article devoted to this sbject in one of the early 
journals.  I cannot put my hands on it, but something tells me that it's one 
that came out right around 1981.  Anybody have the specifics?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:29:58 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Drugs 

[Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:]
> ObTrav:  What 'recreational chemicals' are illegal throughout 
> the Imperium, and just how heavily are they smuggled?  


[Glenn Goffin wrote:]

> The Imperium itself doesn't have any laws about drugs.  

The Imperium does control some substances, but only
as a side effect of other Imperial statutes. There is no
drug control or approval agency.  Psi-Enhancing drugs,
for example, are illegal under the Imperial Psi ban.  A 
few other drugs are also controlled under other 
"Imperial Security" related mandates.  A few of
these may be considered "recreational" by some 
elements of society.

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:35:21 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: I must be tired

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> every world rotates around its axis at its own speed
> access ... must be bed time

Oh.  I thought you were making a point about the extreme importance of
databases in the TU....
> 
> --Glenn


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:41:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: G:T Alien Races II

From SJG's Daily Illuminator (24 Jul 99):

The following products left our warehouse last week, headed for your
local game store: 

Alien Races II (for GURPS Traveller)
     The second book in the GURPS Traveller Alien Races series, Alien
Races 2: Aslan and
     K'kree addresses the biology, home worlds, culture, and society of
the fierce Aslan,
     the centaurian K'kree, and two minor species.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:41:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Alien Races 2

According to SJG, AR2 has shipped.  You are free to start pestering you
FLGS.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:23:57 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship designations: a request

Andrew Akins wrote:

>Yes, but...correct me if I'm wrong, shouldn't a ship's designation be based
>not on its weapon load or size - but on the mission it can/does perform? If
>it acts like a destroyer, then it is a destroyer - no matter how large or
>small it is. Is this correct?

Depends. Current wet navies use both methods (depends on the Navy). I
see no reason why different races in Traveller would not do the same.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:16:29 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Jory Earl wrote:

>Hey, I remember that story.  William L. Shire, I believe wrote the best
>account.  The Bismark was supposedly immune to torpedoes (like those carried
>on the swordfish) but just like the Titanic was un-sinkable...:)  BTW,
>anyone know what happened to the Tirpitz, sister ship to the Bismark?

Damaged by an attack of X-boats (miniature submarines); and then
attacked with Grand Slam bombs (22,000 lb., IIRC). She turned turtle in
harbour.

ObTrav: Much like Traveller fighters, the Swordfish didn't manage to do
any killing damage to Bismarck, but they did scrub off some important
external features (wrecking the steering gear).

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #889
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 890



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GURPS Traveller ship construction and GURPS Space 3rd edition
Re: The Fighter Debate
Traveller Diplomacy
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: languages, dialects, accents
Re: languages, dialects, accents
Re: Drugs
Gurps TNS
Re:Enclosed Bays (Tech)
Re: Daylight Savings Time
Re: Ship Classes
MS-ified TMLer?
Re: Daylight Savings Time
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: languages, dialects, accents
Re: Battle Poems
Re: Daylight Savings Time
Re: Ship designations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:08:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller ship construction and GURPS Space 3rd edition

Thanks to a friend, I was recently able to peruse the
modular ship constuction system for the upcoming GURPS
Space revision. It is similar in many ways to the one
in GT, although it has separate modules for power
plants, they are not included in the modules
themselves. It looks to me like this would be a very
good system, and perhaps they might later revise the
GT system to be more like this one. Adding in the
power plant core and power plant modules was virtually
painless, and would make deckplans easier because you
would know how big your power plant is. The GURPS
Space system of course includes some alternate tech,
and even things like Jump Drives work differently than
GT, but it looks very useful.

Allen

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:37:54 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: The Fighter Debate

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
...
>Hmm. Take a TL15 ship and ramp the armour to max (TL+3 IIRC for

 TL. TL+3 for asteroids (20% rock), TL+6 for buffered asteroids (35% rock).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:54:47 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Traveller Diplomacy

SD Mooney wrote:

> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:
>
> >Monopoly?  Well, if you have enough people over to make it
> >interesting.  But what about Traveller Diplomacy?
> <snip>
> >Anyone else interested in developing this idea?
>
> Yes. What's the plan?
>
> Dom

I'm messing with maps right now.

Initially I was thinking Spinward Marches, but I think Glenn's idea
is better, i.e., using a march larger portion of known space and
have these 7 factions:

Imperial, Solomani, Aslan, Zhodani, Vargr, K'kree, and Hiver

So I'm playing with the larger scale map now.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:02:14 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

> From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>

> ObTrav :  Imagine re-creating a battle similiar to this during a long
> gaming
> session.  With all the odd things in space like nebulas and asteroide
> fields
> and the like, it sounds like a very exciting game.  Has anyone done this?
> Sure, its borrowing from history, but some of the best SF was taken from
> history.  Prime example being George Lucas's Star Wars saga.

I'm all for borrowing from history (I try not to let my players know too
early in campaign that I was a history major in college), but space
doesn't have quite as many odd things that have any tactical effect as
the movies would suggest.  Space is basically just empty.  

Battles usually occur near some objective like a planet (asteroid, high
port, research station, etc.), and you can have a few odd things there,
like satellites real and artificial, the high port, etc.  

When one side breaks off by acceleration, they can go a long way, but
eventually relativistic effects have to be dealt with ("she canna take
much more o'this, sair; ye'll havta sloooow doon now!"), and it seems to
me that they're unlikely to reach another item in the star system in a
playable fashion.  I guess you could just compress the many game turns
between say, Earth and Jupiter.  I did a game like this once with Mayday
(almost 20 years ago).  We were fortunate to have a huge conference-type
table to play on.  We had to record how many _sheets_ of hex paper were
between the present and future position counters.  J.D. Burdick, who is
sometimes on this list, was there, and may remember more details.

Hmmm... I do like the concept of the rudder being broken:  

"All stations:  Damage report!" 

"Helm sir: we took a missile hit in the starboard m-drive; it's
offline.  Port m-drive is forcing us into an arc to starboard.  Port
m-drive control is out; the cables must be severed in multiple
locations.  I can't shut it down. Present course will return us to the
planet in 13 days ... where we will impact at approximately 0.25c."

First officer:  "It will be a great victory, sir.  Congratulations."

Captain:  "Victories such as this I don't need.  Engineering!  I need
control of the port m-drive now!  Get those fiber optic cables fixed!"

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:11:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents

> From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>

> Translators are good for a pinch, but you really need to know the language
> (if possible).  A translator can only convert words and syntax, it can't
> portray the subtle racial or cultural nuances that may make diplomacy a

Why not?  Isn't that just more data and rules that can be fed into the
translator?  The translator is just a computer with appropriate software
and input and output devices (like voder and vocorder, but maybe others,
depending on the language).  

Yes, it's an enormous to attempt to put all the information about any
language into software, and yes, some information will not be known to
the programming team, and yes, the information is constantly changing so
you're constantly updating the programs (which should make the software
companies and their shareholders very happy), but even so I think it
will be worth the effort, especially at higher tech levels where
computers can mimic human (or other sophont) brain functions to "learn"
languages and improve their own programming.  

There will still be errors, but they'll probably be subtle -- but still
potentially devastating.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:14:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents

> From: KenRoney@aol.com

> There was a decent article devoted to this sbject in one of the early 
> journals.  I cannot put my hands on it, but something tells me that it's
> one that came out right around 1981.  Anybody have the specifics?

"Languages in Traveller"; it was in JTAS.  I'm too lazy to dig it out
just now; sorry.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:26:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Drugs

> From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>

> [Glenn Goffin wrote:]
> 
> > The Imperium itself doesn't have any laws about drugs.  
> 
> The Imperium does control some substances, but only
> as a side effect of other Imperial statutes. There is no
> drug control or approval agency.  Psi-Enhancing drugs,
> for example, are illegal under the Imperial Psi ban.  A 
> few other drugs are also controlled under other 
> "Imperial Security" related mandates.  A few of
> these may be considered "recreational" by some 
> elements of society.

I agree in concept, but not in the specific example.  The Imperium has
never banned psionics -- that is, there is no Imperial Edict to that
effect.  The Imperium revoked the charters of the psionics institutes,
issued policy statements that psionics were injurious to the stability
of the realm, and engaged in manipulation of the media to stir up
anti-psionic attitudes in member worlds.  Member worlds passed all sorts
of laws against psionics, including laws against possession,
manufacture, etc. of psi drugs.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:43:32 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Gurps TNS

The last entry on the TNS in the G:T webpage reads "1119," while the 
previous one read "1116." Either they have jumped three years or it 
is a typo...
Regards,
Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:29:58 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re:Enclosed Bays (Tech)

>A big problem is limiting the capability of gravitics. Laser gravitic
>focussing is going to require lensing effects driven by millions(?) of
>g's of tightly localised spatial distortion.
>	Surely the spin-offs from 'pseudo-gravitic optics' would be interesting
>if not particularly numerous.

Couldn't one of the spinoffs of localized mega-G fields be in pumping gases
and liquids.  Under the control of some kind of computer processors varying
the intensity of the gravity fields in the pump could cause a high gradient
pumping action.  The size of the equipment must not be a problem if it's
used in laser turrets.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:42:21 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time

At 10:58 AM 1999 07 24 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 889
>
>
>
>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
>All rights reserved.
>
>The following topics are covered in this digest:
>
>Part of this has already been "decided". The day on Mars is something
>like 30 minutes longer than the day on Earth. 

24 hours, 37 minutes, and about 22 seconds.

>Currently, times inside Martian sols are tracked in hours, minutes,
>seconds, etc. That's ok for scientific data. But it won't be
>acceptable for anyplace people live. 

I seem to recall from Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red_Mars_ trilogy
that the colonists on Mars continued to use the 24-hour Earth
clock, but added a single block of 37 minutes and many seconds
after 12:00 Midnight to keep the clocks synchronized with the local
planetary rotation, so that there was a gap of 37 1/3 minutes betweem
12:00:00 AM and 12:00:00 AM. The colonists had a name for that block
of time -- darned if I can remember what it was called, though...

But since they had Earth as their next-door neighbour, keeping some
semblance of similarity to Earth time made sense. The Martian colonists
divided their year into 24 months (not sure how many days in each month),
with the months named 1-January, 1-February, and so on to 1-December,
2-January, 2-February, and so on to the end of the year, 2-December.
(That one I had some trouble with...)


>Things like tiome zones are needed for inhabited planets. And to make
>them work, the sol has to be divided up into an *integral* number of
>subdivisions. No fractional parts left over. I could go into a long
>explanation as to why, but for now, just trust me. 

Makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, analog clocks won't work vey
well.

>So folks may use hours, minutes, seconds *and* chrons. Sort of like
>English and metric.

I try not to use English units whenever possible...

>You can't just ship an atomic clock between stars because it's already
>been established that the duration of a jump as measured on the ship
>*doesn't* always match the duration as measured by the outside world.

It doesn't? Since when?


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:02:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Classes

>
>And if it is correct - then I guess I'm asking: What is the difference
>between a Destroyer, Frigate, Escort, Destroyer Escort, etc...
Well, IMTU, it works like this:

Dreadnoughts and Battleships:Large, heavily armed, with some fighters for
patrol and recon. Generally 500KTd+, 3-4G. Dreadnoughts tend to have more
armour, and battleships more weapons, but the terms are interchangeable.

Cruisers: any ship designed for the mainstay of the battle line, ranging
generally from 50KTd to 500 KTd. Usually have fighters of their own.
Generally 3-4 G's

Battle Riders: smae size range as cruisers, carried by a tender... IMTU,
they are often local defese ships with insufficient tenders for full
mobilization. Much better armed. Ton for ton, the bad boys. No jump.

Destroyers: Smaller ships (25-100 KTd), with spinal mounts. Generally 4G+

Frigates: 10KTd-50KTd, no spinals. 4G+, designed for combat.

Escorts: Any 4G+ ship 1KTd or bigger, designed for combat. Usually under
20KTd, no spinals, and mostly designed for close in work, seldom any
carried craft except fuel shuttles.

Close escorts: Escorts smaller than 1KTd

SDB: non-jump patrol craft, 100 to 1000Td
Patrol Cutter: A patrol craft with jump drives.

they fill the following roles:
Battle Group:
A CruRon is escorted by a DesRon (composed of frigates and Destroyers,
usually 8 FF and 4 DD). Each CruRon and DesRon has an attached EsRon. The
Group also has a ScoutRon and a TankRon, and often a CarRon

EsRon: usualy 12 escorts and/or lighter frigates, but formally "Around
60KTd" of Escorts, close escorts, and maybe light frigates. Role is
interdiction of fighters and escorts, harrassment of shipping, and patrol.
A CruRon's EsRon will average closer to 90KTd, While a "FrigRon"  will be
closer to 150 KTd total. Sometimes assigned alone... but there is amlost
always an EsRon with a DesRon or CruRon

CruRon 12 Cruisers. Averages some 2-5MTd total, before the everpresent
EsRon is counted. The main line of battle, focuses on pounding on ships of
the enemy's main line, and on devastating planets.

DesRon:12 Destroyers and/or frigates. Usually, masses about 600-800KTd
total. Screens the battle line from enemy escorts. Engages enemy
destroyers. Generally, about half of all DesRons are not attached to battle
groups, but form the core of a Task Group. DesRons almost always have an
EsRon attached to them

ScoutRon: Usually cosists of 5 1 Ktd scouts, 20 Patrol Cutters, and 20 Fast
Scouts (J6, 4+G, 100-500Td). Job: Find the enemy, and Report. Survival
optional.

TankRon: Generally, J5 equipped, and capable of Jumping Twice on their
tankage. A TankRon is usually capable of only 3-4G, and usually defined as
"Carrying fuel  in excess of own needs totalling 0.25MTd" per 'Ron. Note:
Only under MT is this possible, as MT Jump Fuel is 5 times the Td of the
Jump drive, rather than 10% per Jn... so J5 means 6% of tonnage to JD, and
30% per 1J6 for fuel... so 2J5 totals only 66% of tonnage.

AssaultRon: Ships designed for carrying marines... In reality, a DesRon
with mostly frigates with lots of marines aboard.

BatRon: 12 Battle Ships or Battle Rider Tenders, averaging either 6, 9 or
12 MTd (Lt, Med, Hvy). A Heavy BatRon of BRT's will be carrying some 24-60
BattleRiders; This makes it a match for 3-4 CruRons, especially when
defending. There are almost no heavy Batrons of battleships. A Batron has
an Attached DesRon, and ususaly the batron has 2 attached Esrons plus the
DesRon's Esron, and an attached ScoutRon.

CarRon: A CruRon which relies upon fighters. IMTU, the main-line uses
20-30Td fighters with barbettes, armor, and usually 6+ G's. (6G from
T-plates, and usually some extra available from other methods of thrust,
like fusion rockets). The sheer number of targets just hard enought to take
two to three hits to know out makes them problematic. Plus the low sigs,
and sheer volume of fire, and their ability to change course rapidly makes
them much more dangerous.

AssaultGroup: A BatRon and a CruRon, or 2 CruRons, plus their attached
EsRons, plus 2-3 DesRons with their EsRons, plus 2-3 more EsRons, plus 2-3
AssaultRons, plus 2-4 scoutrons, plus 4 tank rons, and often a carron.
Basically, this type of group is intended to eliminate any and or all enemy
forces in a system within a week. Total displacement is often in excess of
20 MTd. Total targets is in the  thousands, counting everyone's fighters.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: MS-ified TMLer?

>Every other world rotates around its access at its own speed.  This can

[snip]>
>- --Glenn
>------------------------------
>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
>Subject: I must be tired
>
>every world rotates around its axis at its own speed
>access ... must be bed time

Looks to me you've be zapped my Microsoft, who whant us all to rotate aourd
a copy of MS-Access. ;)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:45:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time

In mail you write:

> Every other world rotates around its access at its own speed.  This can
> really add atmosphere to a world, but requires some work from the
> referee.  There is a Poul Anderson story where Dominic Flandry is on a
> world with either a very long or very short period of rotation, and
> everybody kind of cat-naps for part of the day.  
>
> That's really how it would be, too.  Solomani got used to a 24 hour
> cycle over some hundreds of thousands of years.  Vilani got used to a
> different cycle (30-something hours; see Vilani and Vargr); Zhodani to
> still another cycle.  I don't think that several generations on a world
> will make us conform to its cycle.  It would take much, much longer.  

Actually, sleep research has shown that there will be *no* difficulty
adapting to a longer period, up to at least 27-28 hours. In the absence
of external time cues, our bodies *naturally* fall into a 26-30 hour
cycle. So synchronizing with anything up to your body's natural cycle
*won't* be a problem. 

Longer than 30 may be a problem. I'd have to do some research. 

And shorter periods can be adapted to, though it takes at least a few
weeks. 

It's *really* long, and really short that are the problems.

But given that various navies have fought wars with crews doing "watch
& watch" (ie 4 hours on shift, 4 hours off shift), I'd say that even an
*8* hour day could be adjusted to. Below that, and they'll just set up
a "schedule" that's got multiple sols (local days) to the shift cycle. 

And I'd guess that 40-48 hours is the upper limit. After that, you'd
just divide the sol into multiple shift cycles (ie treat the sol as if
it was several "days"). Or just ignore it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:55:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

In mail you write:

>> From: brhoust@juno.com
>> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885
>  
>> As far as Traveller goes-how standardized is the language?  Accents,
>> Slang, etc. could provide interesting plot twists...
>
> This is another recurring subject on the TML.  Do we have electronic
> translators that translate everything that is being said into whatever
> we prefer to hear?  Do they do that primarily by database matching or
> primarily by following linguistic rules and guessing from context, much
> as humans (and at least some other sophonts) do with languages?  What do
> we hear when the translator isn't working?  

Language translation is going to be a *mess*. Especially when you
consider that it is literally not *possible* to translate between many
languages in units smaller than a "sentence" (Example, German allows
long, complicated sentences. It also places the *verb* last. So until
the verb is spoken, you *can't* translate the sentence. Heck, until
that point even fellow German speakers aren'r sure what your point is!)

> How much does telecommunications help standardize language across the
> Imperium (as opposed to upon any single world) given the time lag in
> interstellar travel?  

It's not telecommunications that standardizes speech. It's audio
*media*. Audio recordings, Movies & video with sound tracks, and
broadcasts (which may be pre-recorded elsewhere).

So even though the Imperial equivalent of NPR, the BBS and various
broadcast networks are relying on shipped in "tapes" for their
"network" programming, they'll *still* standardize speech to a moderate
extent.

That *doesn't* mean that there won't be local dialects. But even if
there *is* a local dialect, people will understand the "media standard"
dialect. And probably speak it well enough to get along.

Consider the UK, the US, Canada and Australia. If you speak the dialect
used by American or BBC announcers, you'll be understood. And most
people will be able to speak it back at you. But that hasn't eliminated
Strine, Cockney, and the various other dialects of English in those
places. 

And it hasn't eliminated Canadian French, or Irish/Scots Gaelic. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:13:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents

In mail you write:

>> From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
>
>> Translators are good for a pinch, but you really need to know the language
>> (if possible).  A translator can only convert words and syntax, it can't
>> portray the subtle racial or cultural nuances that may make diplomacy a
>
> Why not?  Isn't that just more data and rules that can be fed into the
> translator?  The translator is just a computer with appropriate software
> and input and output devices (like voder and vocorder, but maybe others,
> depending on the language).  

The "rules" can be very hard to codify. 

> Yes, it's an enormous to attempt to put all the information about any
> language into software, and yes, some information will not be known to
> the programming team, and yes, the information is constantly changing so
> you're constantly updating the programs (which should make the software
> companies and their shareholders very happy), but even so I think it
> will be worth the effort, especially at higher tech levels where
> computers can mimic human (or other sophont) brain functions to "learn"
> languages and improve their own programming.  

> There will still be errors, but they'll probably be subtle -- but still
> potentially devastating.

Actually, you can have very *non*-subtle errors. For example, concepts
in one language that just plain *don't exist* in the other language.
This means that there are *simple* statements in one that can't be
translated *at all* into the other. You can attempt to get across the
concept, but that will require many sentences if not *paragraphs*. 

So expect that translator to have "untranslatable" pop out sometimes.
Or some sort of squawk that means the same thing.

	"He has <beep>savior faire<beep>."

	"This could result in loss of much <beep>s'fik<beep>."

Given enough *referents* an English speaker can learn the concepts of
"savior faire" or "s'fik". But that doesn't make either *translatable*
into English. It just means that that *particular* English speaker has
acquired the concept. The concept itself is *still* not part of
English. *If* it becomes useful enough to enough people then the word
may get adopted into English. Savoire faire is getting there.

The *subtle* things are stuff like equating "honor" with the Japanese
Bushido concept that is usually translated as "honor". They have a
*lot* of similarities. They are *not* the same thing. 

Ditto for equating "s'fik" and "face". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:21:23 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Poems

Imperial Marine Marching Song:

From the distant Spinward Marches
To the Solomani Rim,
We will fight the Emperor's Battles,
We will fight and we will win.

(Feel free to finish it)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:16:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time

In mail you write:

> At 10:58 AM 1999 07 24 -0400, you wrote:

>>Part of this has already been "decided". The day on Mars is something
>>like 30 minutes longer than the day on Earth.
>
> 24 hours, 37 minutes, and about 22 seconds.
>
>>Currently, times inside Martian sols are tracked in hours, minutes,
>>seconds, etc. That's ok for scientific data. But it won't be
>>acceptable for anyplace people live.
>
> I seem to recall from Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red_Mars_ trilogy
> that the colonists on Mars continued to use the 24-hour Earth
> clock, but added a single block of 37 minutes and many seconds
> after 12:00 Midnight to keep the clocks synchronized with the local
> planetary rotation, so that there was a gap of 37 1/3 minutes betweem
> 12:00:00 AM and 12:00:00 AM. The colonists had a name for that block
> of time -- darned if I can remember what it was called, though...

Martian Time Slip. And it's *not* practical. First of all, you *have*
to keep track of time during that gap. What if something happens? Not
*everyone* will be asleep.

And because of what it does to time zones. Here on earth it's enough of
a mess when the difference between local time and the time in another
time zone is *fixed*.

Time zones

0         -1        -2        -3        -4        -5        -6        -7
- --------  --------  --------  --------  --------  --------  --------  --------
23:59:59  22:59:59  21:59:59  20:59:59  19:59:59  18:59:59  17:59:59  16:59:59
24:00:00  23:00:00  22:00:00  21:00:00  20:00:00  19:00:00  18:00:00  17:00:00
24:37:22  23:37:22  22:37:22  21:37:22  20:37:22  19:37:22  18:37:22  17:37:22
00:00:00  23:37:23  22:37:23  21:37:23  20:37:23  19:37:23  18:37:23  17:37:23

See the problem? Quick! If it's 4am in your time zone, what time is it
in the other time zones?

> But since they had Earth as their next-door neighbour, keeping some
> semblance of similarity to Earth time made sense.

Not really. It's not as if tracking only 24 hours in the day will
somehow keep them in synch with earth days. Every day they'll slip a
bit farther out of synch with Earth. In only 39 days they'll be a whole
*day* out of synch with Earth.

> The Martian colonists
> divided their year into 24 months (not sure how many days in each month),
> with the months named 1-January, 1-February, and so on to 1-December,
> 2-January, 2-February, and so on to the end of the year, 2-December.
> (That one I had some trouble with...)

And that too is silly. Their months *won't* match up with the terran
ones except once in a great while. And using the same names merely
makes confusion more likely.

>>Things like tiome zones are needed for inhabited planets. And to make
>>them work, the sol has to be divided up into an *integral* number of
>>subdivisions. No fractional parts left over. I could go into a long
>>explanation as to why, but for now, just trust me.=20
>
> Makes perfect sense to me. Otherwise, analog clocks won't work vey
> well.

See above. It's why "time slip" type reckoning *won't* work.

>>So folks may use hours, minutes, seconds *and* chrons. Sort of like
>>English and metric.
>
> I try not to use English units whenever possible...

>>You can't just ship an atomic clock between stars because it's already
>>been established that the duration of a jump as measured on the ship
>>*doesn't* always match the duration as measured by the outside world.
>
> It doesn't? Since when?

Check some of the possible misjump results, for one thing. For another,
if the ship jumps between two systems moving at different velocities
*which* system says the jump took a "week".

I'd say that most of the time it takes approximately the same time
inside and outside. But at least one "official" misjump table had the
internal duration being normal and the external being longer or vice
versa.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:23:28 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Ship designations

>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Ship Designations: A request
> And on top of these genuine 
>differences are deliberate politically inspired misnomers, like the new
Japanese 
>"support ship". Honest Govn'r that big flat area on top's just to allow
quick 
>handling of cargo, and it just made sense to put all the superstructure
off to 
>starboard. The large full length deck below, a vehicle deck, honest. And the 
>large lifts linking the "vehicle" deck with topside, well we might want to
move 
>the "vehicles" in a hurry. A carrier, nah never, would I lie to you gov. 

The British also pulled this stunt with their 'through deck cruisers', and
the Americans often forgot to count the Iwo Jima class CVLs when doing
comparisons with the Soviet navy (just like they forgot to count all the
tanks in the maintainence pools when comparing tank numbers).

To haul this back onTrav, note that Famile Spofulam always practices full
disclosure with the class names of their ships - Leeegals really earned
their keep with 'Fast Extraction Vessels' and 'Exploratory Trader'. And of
course the 'Peaceful Magnetic Device' that is the FS Gauss Gun (note to
self ... check if it could get satellites into orbit).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #890
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 891



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : Tech
Re: languages
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2
RE: Speaking of Ancients 
Re: Daylight Savings Time (was Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?)
Imperial Code of Law (Long)
RE: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Fighters
Relativistic Missiles
RE: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: On the nature of Jump Space...
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: languages, dialects, accents
Average Density of Cargo?
Astrin APC
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Astrin APC
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Real world question
Re: Daylight Savings Time

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:27:40 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re : Tech

>Aren't you still going to have to radiate waste heat?
>Even if you manage to generate some electrical power from some of the
>waste heat, there will still be a heat load that needs disposal.

Waste heat is only waste heat if you waste it. Yes there will always be
losses. The question is how much energy is lost to losses, and is it lost as
**heat** energy.

For example a steam power plant wastes quite a bit of energy in the process
of creating steam, especially in the form of heating up the air surrounding
the boiler/reactor. Heat losses around the pipes are a function of the
insulating properties of the pipe covering.
Most of the energy of the steam utilized for work is converted by turbines,
but at most plants the steam coming out of the turbine is used to preheat
the water going into the boiler this steam is further utilized to seal the
condensers, and even the hot water that results is used to preheat the
water. The energy imparted to the steam is used very efficiently.

Initially steam piping wasn't insulated at all and heat losses to the
atmosphere were very high. Then engineers began wrapping piping. the
efficiency of the whole plant increased.  On the opposite side of the heat
equation, very good insulation is used when dealing with very cold
materials. Where I work we use liquid hydrogen at 2 degrees K. The piping is
so well insulated that you can touch the outside of the piping with your
hand. It has like four different layers, including a vacuum layer.

What I'm proposing is a kind of thermocouple that will convert some of the
waste heat to electricity.  The electricity can them be stored in batteries
or accumulators or used. The system probably won't be able to convert all
the heat to electricity. And the size of the storage cells will limit the
amount of energy that can be stored. But we're talking waste heat management
here.  Radiate the heat away later, when there isn't a heavily armed assault
vessel ready to vaporize you. And who says that a black globe has no losses.
You can't break even, but nobody knows how close you might be able to get to
not breaking even.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:52:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: languages

brhoust@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Thanks.  That makes sense - I guess.  On my first gun crew the driver was
> from Georgia, the gunner (me) from Arizona and the Squad Leader was from
> Puerto Rico.  Our Platoon Sergeant was from Samoa and the Platoon Leader
> from the Bronx.   We had enough trouble understanding each other's
> "english" 

HA, that reminds me. Long ago, as a student job, I was chief busboy peon in
the University's cafeteria for the night shift. The Cafeteria (and the
university as a whole) had a large number of fopreign nationals working there,
as that was the only place they could legally work and keep their student
visas. Anyhoo, one shift I had a someone from Brazil and someone from
Angola...I had to translate their english accents to each other, as their
nominal native tongue, Portugese, was mutually incomprehensible, and I didn't
speak Portugese...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:22:32 +0000
From: brhoust@juno.com
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

>portray the subtle racial or cultural nuances that may make diplomacy a
>critical issue.  For instance, a person meets a vargr for the first time.
>He may make a remark to his buddy like, "hey, he resembles a dog, doesn't
>he?".  Imagine the translator the vargr has picking that up, analyzing the
>syntax, and deciding to use the vargr word for "lower class life-form,
>mindless noise-making animal".  Needless to say, the two 'guys' don't
>understand why they're suddenly facing a Gauss Rifle on fully auto.  
>:)


Or "ugly female of the species" :)


8Bradley Houston
tc+   ?t4>+  @ge  3i(+)   c+  jt  au  @ls  pi+()  so-()  zh vi-  da

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:58:09 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Popular Gravitics, part 2

>As for thieves, I wouldn't underestimate their ingenuity. With air/rafts
worth
>hundreds of thousands of credits at least (LBBs again), thieves will
definitely
>find a way to get to them. If the owner is able to either float up to his
>air/raft, or call his air/raft down, a determined thief will be able to
>accomplish both of these activities somehow.

Why should we assume that people would want to own air/rafts anyway?  A
public transportation model is so much more efficient. In the garage of my
building there sits a dozen or so air/rafts. When I'm ready to go somewhere
I call one and it lands on the platform outside my apartment. I tell it
where I want to go and it takes me there.

Three or four minutes before I want to leave I use my wristcom or PDA or
whatever to call another air/raft, which is waiting by the time I get to the
platform. I'd pay on a yearly basis, through a contract with the fleet
owner. They could worry about the maintenance and such.

The only ones to own an air/raft would be the very rich (status symbol) or
people who live in an area so isolated no fleet vehicle would be close
enough to reach them in a reasonable time. Of course businesses would own
vehicles, as would people on rural (frontier) worlds, and offworlders, who
might take their vehicles with them. Such vehicles would still hook into the
world wide traffic net, but their relative scarcity would make them a very
hot commodity to fence.


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:32:26 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Speaking of Ancients 

The answer to life, the universe and everythin 42 of course

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 04:46:58 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time (was Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?)

On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 03:36:11 -0400 (EDT), cos 90
<cos90@powersurfr.com> wrote:

>ObTrav: how do they reconcile all the clocks and calendars in the
>Imperium to the Imperial Standard? If an Imperial Standard Day is
>24 hours (ie, the Terran Day), what does a planet do when it has
>a rotation of 23.5 hours? If you start with clocks synchronized
>so that high noon is at 12:00 Noon, 24 days later "noon" is in the
>middle of the night...

Local timekeeping vs. Imperial timekeeping.  The Imperial
clock/calendar is used for interaction with the Imperium (and
with other planets and with starships making planetfall); the
local clock/calendar is used for strictly local matters (like
local taxes, crop planting, possibly religious holidays, and so
on). YTUMV.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:41:52 -0500
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>
Subject: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

Im setting up a legal system for my Traveller universe and one of the
first things that Im doing is defining what the Imperium sees as legal
and illegal. If anyone knows of crimes not on the below listing that
should be there please let me know. There are secondary crimes such as
Attempted crimes or Accessory to a crime but I have intentionally left
them out. As in the case of Fraud it has many faces -- Tax, Bank, Wire,
Insurance, Securities, etc.. Possession and Trafficking can apply to
various Contraband, Weapons, Drugs, Dangerous Chemicals, Explosives or
anything else the Imperium wants to control. Please provide me your
comments. I will further define and build a legal system around them
which I'll post. If anyone knows of articles that have been published
let me know.

HIGH CRIMES (Crimes Against the Imperium / Emperor)
Assassination
Treason
Terrorism
Espionage
Sabotage
Mutiny
Rebellion / Insurrection
Extortion / Threats Against the Emperor
Piracy
HiJacking
Jury / Witness Tampering
Corruption / Bribery
Ecocide
Genocide
Misappropriation
Trespassing
Counterfeiting
Fraud
Robbery
Impersonation
Conspiracy
Racketeering / Criminal Enterprise
Official Misconduct
Obstruction of Justice
Contempt of the Emperor
Destruction
Harboring a Fugitive
Killing Protected Species
Perjury / Subornation of Perjury
Providing False Testimony or Report
Rioting / Loiting
Breaking Medical Quarantine
Possession
Trafficking
Solication
Smuggling / Tech Running
Contempt of the Emperor
Burning the Imperium Flag or Emblem

FELONY CRIMES
(Crimes Against Persons)
Murder
Rape / Sexual Assault
Kidnapping
Torture
Man Slaughter
Blackmail
Aggravated Assault
Public Endangerment
False Detention / Imprisonment
Peonage / Slavery
Identify Theft
Discrimination
Impressment
Stalking

(Crimes Against Property)
Burglary
Arson
Grand Theft
Forgery
Embezzlement / Larceny
Bribery
Falsification of Documents
Impersonation
Aiding / Abetting
Trespassing / Privacy Invasion
Toxic Dumping / Pollution
Stowaway / Thief of Transit
Poaching
Rustling

MISDEMEANOR CRIMES
Resisting Arrest
Simple Assault
Disorderly Conduct
Simple Possession
Simple Theft
Harassment
Improper Navigation or a Vehicle / Spacecraft
Receiving Stolen Goods
Exploitation of Children
False Reporting
Public Solication
Flight to Avoid Prosecution
Contempt of Court
Driving Under the Influence
Loan Sharking
Vandalism / Malicious Mischief
Check Fraud

MILITARY CRIMES
Desertion
AWOL
Disrespect / Insubordination
Disobey Lawful Order
Cruelty or Maltreatment
Espionage
Treason
Sabotage
Unlawful Detention / Imprisonment
Providing Aid & Comfort to the Enemy
Misconduct Before the Enemy
Hazarding a Vehicle or Craft
Dueling
Malingering
Larceny
Conduct Unbecoming
Good Order and Displine
Rebellion / Mutiny
Rape / Sexual Assault
Unlawful Destruction
Violation of Curfew
Missing a Movement
Unauthorized Use
Loss of Weapon
Cowardice
Murder
Plundering
Black Marketeering
Endangerment of Command
Violation of the Rules of War
Impersonating an Officer
Unlawful Enlistment
Obstruction of Justice
Assault / Battery
Drunk / Disorderly
Deriction of Duty

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:17:11 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

For an example of translators in action, and the problems you cant go past C
J Cherryhs' Chanur series.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:17:15 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Fighters

Thats the thing about fighters in Traveller, they may not do a great deal of
damage against capital ships, but they can scrape off all the sensor arrays,
fire control antenna etc, making the vessel a much easier target for the
other sides big ships.

In essence a vessel with no sensors is a combat kill. It could perhaps
maneuver using dead reckoning, but its best bet would be to press the big
red emergency jump button, again removing the ship from any combat.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:17:18 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Relativistic Missiles

Of course relativistic ships are only practical if you are using thruster
plates. Ships using HEPlaR thrusters simply cannot carry enough fuel to
reach relativistic speeds.

That said however how about this for the truly evil megalomaniac "Lucan" in
the black war perhaps.
It also makes use of all those old scout ships.

Normally a ship entering jump will program so that it emerges with a
reasonable velocity and vector in its target system.  It could be possible
to program a jump so that the computer operated vessel emerges with a
relativistic velocity vectored towards a world. It would be very hard to
stop this.

In the TNE virus era some worlds may have been killed by early generation
virus doing just that.

Any thoughts on whether this would work and if so what the effect on a world
would be of a 100 dt Scout hitting at 0.3c or other velocities?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:23:23 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

Then of course their is the Imperial Navigation Act as amended which would
include such things as operating a space vessel without a valid transponder
signal (would also cover not running the transponder at all) Local
governments would likely also have regulations for this.

Also running without running lights (this would be when entering or leaving
dock) so you can get that nice startrek effect of all the ships external
lights being turned on to light up the vessels name.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:13:19 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space...



>
> >I think I first read it in the Starship's Operator's Manual???
>
> That's a new one on me. I guess I'm just an old LBB stick-
> in-the-mud (I barely accept HG, let alone all that other
> new-fangled stuff).
>
> Peez
>

It's one of those things... I probably read it in a GDW product first, but
only remember (at least, I think so... it being some many years ago?)
reading it in the SOM??

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:42:21 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?


> > >>Using American units (which didn't start in America by the way) makes
> > >>Americans nervous.  Try this-ask an American how many cups are in a
> > >>gallon.
> > >
> > > Yes and no. Although inches, gallons, et al. did not start
> > > in the USA, the US Gallon did. This is all a plot to confuse
> > > Canadians who tried to learn US Gallons, Imperial Gallons,
> > > and Litres all at the same time %(
> >
> > Tell me about it. I'm a Canadian who's going to be driving down to
> > the US next week on vacation. I remember the last time I was there,
> > and asked for "200 grams" of ham at the supermarket deli. I'm
> > lucky I wasn't arrested, given that the only things measured in grams
> > in the US are illegal substances... :)
>
> We're strange about that kinda stuff.
>
> BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
they
> call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
>
> ObTrav:  Anybody care to speculate if the Vilani secretly contacted the
French a couple hundred years back & the Froggies didn't bother telling
anybody about it?  It could help explain their cooking & their misplaced
sense of superiority...
>
> Keven
>

In Australia, we are (obviously) metric, but Maccas (Macdonald's) still has
a Quarter Pounder... and their Double Quarter Pounder (2x 1/4-pound beef
patties) was still a "Double Quarter Pounder" and not a Half Pounder!  Just
a little cultural exchange there :^)

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:58:52 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 3:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
>
>
>
> >BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
they
> >call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
>
>
> It's not just the French. When I was in Germany they called it the Royale
as
> well.
>

I saw a German movie once where they ordered a Royale (didn't know what it
was) and a GrossMac(or something like that?) at a German Maccas... that
answers that for met, thanks :^)

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:42:10 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents

On Sat, 24 Jul 1999, you wrote:
>> From: KenRoney@aol.com
>
>> There was a decent article devoted to this sbject in one of the early 
>> journals.  I cannot put my hands on it, but something tells me that it's
>> one that came out right around 1981.  Anybody have the specifics?
>
>"Languages in Traveller"; it was in JTAS.  I'm too lazy to dig it out
>just now; sorry.
>
>--Glenn

Languages in Traveller by Terry MacInnes, JTAS 16, reprinted in Best of JTAS 4
- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:53:49 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Average Density of Cargo?

I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar 
trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While 
it seems possible to estimate a series of data based on *weight,* say 
the average trade per citizen, the total capacity in metric tons of 
the merchant fleet and so on, Traveller uses displacement tons 
everywhere, which are volume. So I am lacking some correspondence.

What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What 
is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?

Any thoughts?

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:06:08 +0100 (BST)
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: Astrin APC

Has anyone converted the Astrin APC from GURPS:Star Mercs over to TNE?
I would be intrested in seeing any such conversions. 

Chris T
If I should fall to rise no more
As many comrades did before 
Then ask the fifes and drums to play
Over the hill and far away

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:25:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
> 
> I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar
> trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While
> it seems possible to estimate a series of data based on *weight,* say
> the average trade per citizen, the total capacity in metric tons of
> the merchant fleet and so on, Traveller uses displacement tons
> everywhere, which are volume. So I am lacking some correspondence.
> 
> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What
> is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?

Well, when designing starships using FF&S2, I generally use 1 metric
ton/m^3 as a default for calculating required maneuver drives.  FF&S2
uses 14 m^3 equals one dton.

Hope this helps.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:30:39 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Astrin APC

Chris Thompson wrote:
> 
> Has anyone converted the Astrin APC from GURPS:Star Mercs over to TNE?
> I would be intrested in seeing any such conversions.

Other way around.  I don't have any TNE materials on-hand, but the
Astrin was featured in TNE (and possibly as far back as Striker for CT),
long before G:T.  I know that the Astrin is in Striker II (for TNE), as
well as in the _Regency Vehicle Guide_ (is that the correct title?  You
TNEers know what book I mean.).

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:40:35 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

- ----------
> From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Average Density of Cargo?
> Date: Sunday, 25 July, 1999 8:53 AM
> 
> I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar 
> trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While 
[snip]
> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What 
> is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
> 
> Any thoughts?

GT uses an average of 5 metric tons per displacement ton.  Don't now if
it's precise, but it looks a decent figure of merit.  For a real-world
comparison, 20-ft ISO containers (roughly 3m x 3m x 6 m) are about 4-dtons
and typically weigh in at around 20 metric tons.

Have you looked at all at GT: Far Trader?  It's got some very sound
economic underpinnings.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:49:37 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

>
> ObTrav :  Imagine re-creating a battle similiar to this during a long gaming
> session.  With all the odd things in space like nebulas and asteroide fields
> and the like, it sounds like a very exciting game.  Has anyone done this?
> Sure, its borrowing from history, but some of the best SF was taken from
> history.  Prime example being George Lucas's Star Wars saga.
>

I believe SFB, under the scenarios section, had this. I know they had one
for the H.M.S. Hood dead.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:52:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Real world question

Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:

What material was used for radiation shielding in the Apollo capsules, and
how effective was it?

Thanks!
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:14:50 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time

>> I seem to recall from Kim Stanley Robinson's _Red_Mars_ trilogy
>> that the colonists on Mars continued to use the 24-hour Earth
>> clock, but added a single block of 37 minutes and many seconds
>> after 12:00 Midnight to keep the clocks synchronized with the local
>> planetary rotation, so that there was a gap of 37 1/3 minutes betweem
>> 12:00:00 AM and 12:00:00 AM. The colonists had a name for that block
>> of time -- darned if I can remember what it was called, though...
>
>Martian Time Slip. And it's *not* practical. First of all, you *have*
>to keep track of time during that gap. What if something happens? Not
>*everyone* will be asleep.
>
>And because of what it does to time zones. Here on earth it's enough of
>a mess when the difference between local time and the time in another
>time zone is *fixed*.

If I recall correctly, the "Martian Time Slip" (thanks for that one,
by the way) was established when all of the Martian colonists were in
the same location.

I would imagine that the Time Slip would be simultaneous across the
entire planet... so that it's after midnight for some, after 4:00 pm
for others...

... you're right, it's not a workable idea in real life.

>> But since they had Earth as their next-door neighbour, keeping some
>> semblance of similarity to Earth time made sense.
>
>Not really. It's not as if tracking only 24 hours in the day will
>somehow keep them in synch with earth days. 

The intent wasn't to keep in synch with Earth, it was a way to keep
using the familiar units of hours, minutes, and seconds, and to be
able to use them unchanged.

>> The Martian colonists
>> divided their year into 24 months (not sure how many days in each month),
>> with the months named 1-January, 1-February, and so on to 1-December,
>> 2-January, 2-February, and so on to the end of the year, 2-December.
>> (That one I had some trouble with...)
>
>And that too is silly. Their months *won't* match up with the terran
>ones except once in a great while. And using the same names merely
>makes confusion more likely.

Again, the intent wasn't to keep in synch with Earth, but to adapt
familiar units into the Martian year. Personally, I'd come up with an
entirely new set of "months" for Martian date-keeping, with completely
new names.

On the other hand, that means learning up to 24 new month names. A
better system would have been to just establish Earth GMT as Martian
Standard Time, and keep using the Earth date.

>> It doesn't? Since when?
>
>Check some of the possible misjump results, for one thing. For another,
>if the ship jumps between two systems moving at different velocities
>*which* system says the jump took a "week".

Misjumps don't count. By definition, they are jump errors -- we can
easily have them include temporal errors as well as spatial ones.

And how fast individual star systems are moving through space does not
affect how fast time passes for the system, unless the system is for
some reason moving at relativistic speeds. If I have two clocks that are
synchronized, take one on a Jump to Alpha Centauri, then jump back, I
would expect the clocks to still be synchronized.


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #891
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 892



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: Average Density of cargo?
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Real world question
Re: Real world question
Re: Real world question
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: languages, dialects, accents
re: Relativistic Missiles
Re: Astrin APC
Missing digests
Re: Astrin APC
RE: languages, dialects, accents
Re: Astrin APC
Re: Astrin APC
Re: Astrin APC
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: languages, dialects, accents
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?
Re: Relativistic Missiles
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
RE: Imperial Code of Law 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:24:35 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

Good luck on your efforts.  I, and a couple of others, have made
starts in this area.  I've been to busy to finish mine, but you might
be interested in my "Legal Foundations of the Third Imperium"
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/implaw.htm

The key difficulty is merging what Common and Civil (i.e. Roman-Germanic)
Law systems with the essentially feudal government of the Imperium.
The 3I is a government of men and not laws.

Also, there is complexity from have member worlds that can have
totally contradictory laws.

How do you define the distinction between felony and misdemeanor
crimes?  Many US states simple define a misdemeanor as a crime
for which the punishment is a maximum of one year.  Others don't
have the distinction at all.

What you suggested so far seems to be without a real foundational
structure for law in the 3I that agrees with canon.  I've commented
specifically below.


Alex Ingram wrote:

> Im setting up a legal system for my Traveller universe and one of the
> first things that Im doing is defining what the Imperium sees as legal
> and illegal. If anyone knows of crimes not on the below listing that
> should be there please let me know. There are secondary crimes such as
> Attempted crimes or Accessory to a crime but I have intentionally left
> them out. As in the case of Fraud it has many faces -- Tax, Bank, Wire,

> Insurance, Securities, etc.. Possession and Trafficking can apply to
> various Contraband, Weapons, Drugs, Dangerous Chemicals, Explosives or
> anything else the Imperium wants to control. Please provide me your
> comments. I will further define and build a legal system around them
> which I'll post. If anyone knows of articles that have been published
> let me know.
>
> HIGH CRIMES (Crimes Against the Imperium / Emperor)
> Assassination

But there is a "Right of Assassination."  General "assassination" is
just another name for murder, when the victim was of high status.
it isn't defined as a separate crime in anything I've ever encountered.
For a more "feudal"

> Treason
> Terrorism

Another "crime" which is actually just another name for other crimes, i.e.,

murder, kidnapping, assault, etc.

> Espionage
> Sabotage
> Mutiny

A military crime, technically.  If you're going to make that distinction.

> Rebellion / Insurrection
> Extortion / Threats Against the Emperor
> Piracy
> HiJacking
> Jury / Witness Tampering

So you presuppose Trial by Jury?

> Corruption / Bribery

Of who?  Presumable only Imperial agents and officers.  (Agent in the
"representative" capacity, not the T4 career).

> Ecocide

The Imperium rules the space between the planets.  Not the planets.
Unless its Ecodide against vacuum or jump space, this is clearly an
issue for member worlds (with the exception of systems wholy
controlled by the 3I).

> Genocide
> Misappropriation

Hmm.  Which definition are you thinking of?

> Trespassing

As a "high crime?"  Trespassing is a crime against property.
If no other crimes are committed in the course of trespassing,
its a minor crime.

> Counterfeiting

Imperial currency, I presume.  Would probably also apply to
member world currency for the impact on commerce that might
have.

> Fraud

Against the Emperor, that makes sense if its on a large enough scale.
Against Imperial Citizens?  Felony.

> Robbery

Of Imperial Citizens?  Not a high crime.

> Impersonation

Of?  Presumably Imperial authories.

> Conspiracy

To commit any other high crime, I presume?

> Racketeering / Criminal Enterprise

> Official Misconduct
> Obstruction of Justice
> Contempt of the Emperor

Are you going to attempt to define this?  I'm not sure it can be.
I think contempt and obstruction might merge.

> Destruction

Of?  How different from sabotage?  No shoe throwing?

> Harboring a Fugitive
> Killing Protected Species

Sounds more like disregarding an Interdiction, probably IISS.

> Perjury / Subornation of Perjury
> Providing False Testimony or Report

How are these two distinct?  I suggest not at all.

> Rioting / Loiting

This is another term for other crimes.  Theft, destruction of property,
etc.
Perhaps you mean "inciting" violence.

> Breaking Medical Quarantine

IMO, better defined as ignoring Imperial authority.

> Possession

Of?  Drugs?  Not really an Imperial concern. Slaves or weapons of mass
destruction, sure.  Imperial property without authorization, that sounds
good too.

> Trafficking

Of?  Slaves?  Sure, thats clearly an Imperial crime. Other things? Not
clear
at all.

> Solication

Of?  To commit a crime?  Sure.  Of anything else?  Doubt it.

> Smuggling / Tech Running

For the Imperium, the only things that are clearly contraband, and thus,
possible to be "smuggled" are slaves and weapons of mass destruction.
Otherwise, its by the various laws of member worlds.  Unless you mean
to include violating Red Zones, but IMO, that might better be defined as
a different crime.

"Tech running"?  That could clearly only be a concern member worlds
(with the possible exception of running IISS interdiction efforts to
preserve
low-tech cultures - but then still better defined as ignoring Imperial
authority
or something of that nature).

> Burning the Imperium Flag or Emblem

Why limited to burning?  "Defacing" is a broader term.


[snip]

Ok, no offense but I'm going to go nuts and upset you if I keep looking
at each crime you've listed.  Suffice to say that some of the crimes you
list are reduntant and some of the property crimes aren't.

I'm not clear what you're trying to do.  It almost appears as if in
YTU there is one law for everyone.  In the canon 3I, this isn't the
case.  It has been said repeatedly that the 3I governs the space
between the stars, not the planets that orbit those stars.  The
greatest crimes in the 3I are slavery, using weapons of mass destruction,
and the Imperial Rules of War.  After that, things that interfere with
interstellar commerce (which admittedly might allow for US commerce
clause-like inflation of power, but there are very good reasons for this
not to happen on the same scale as it has in the US).

Remember, the 3I allows member worlds to _war_ with each other.
Any scheme of law you devise has to include that.  And while I agree
there would be an agreed upon body general law governing territories
exclusively controlled by the Imperium, I'm not yet convinced that it
would be a lengthy and exhaustive code, such as it appears you are
trying to create.  After all, there are nobles on the scene, or nearby,
that have the authority to make the rules within certain constraints.

I think you need to first build a legal foundation for YTU first, and
then see what laws would follow.  You can try working the other
way if you want, but I think its more difficult by a level of magnitude.

Some good questions to ask:
From where does the authority to create law derive?
How is that implemented?
What limits the laws that may be created and enforced?

Other things important to keep in mind:
The laws of member worlds vary _greatly_, and can be in direct
contradiction to each other.
Democracies are rare, consequently, so is trial by jury I suspect.
High nobles have some authority to make law.


Bloo, Esq.
(A real live yankee lawyer).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:30:13 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Average Density of cargo?

From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

> > What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What
> > is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
> 
> Well, when designing starships using FF&S2, I generally use 1 metric
> ton/m^3 as a default for calculating required maneuver drives.  FF&S2
> uses 14 m^3 equals one dton.

That would be density 1, right? 1 metric ton = 1 m^3 is the density 
of *water.* Not very believable unless 99% of interstellar cargoes 
are water. Or am I missing something?

I am estimating something between 2 and 3, but have no real data.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:34:37 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

> > I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar 
> > trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While 
> [snip]
> > What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What 
> > is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
> > 
> > Any thoughts?
 
> GT uses an average of 5 metric tons per displacement ton.  Don't now if
> it's precise, but it looks a decent figure of merit.  For a real-world
> comparison, 20-ft ISO containers (roughly 3m x 3m x 6 m) are about 4-dtons
> and typically weigh in at around 20 metric tons.

That's density 5, around the density of earth IIRC. Seems way too 
high, unles you transport mainly mineral ores.

> Have you looked at all at GT: Far Trader?  It's got some very sound
> economic underpinnings.

No, did not look at it, although bith Jim and Bloo pointed its 
excellences to me (which I am sure are many!). I tend not to buy 
game supplements about economics <grin>

Carlos Alos Ferrer
Department of Economics
University of Vienna 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:48:36 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:
> 
> What material was used for radiation shielding in the Apollo capsules, and
> how effective was it?

Here's what I have so far:

The command module's rounded edges simplified another design decision.
Faget wanted to use beryllium shingles on the afterbody, as he had in
Mercury, to take care of reentry heating, but Langley engineers believed
the spaceship would be traveling too fast for shingles to handle the
heat. The design group decided to wrap an ablative heatshield around the
whole
command module. This wraparound shield had another advantage. One of the
big questions about outer space was radiation exposure. James Van Allen,
discoverer of the radiation belts surrounding the earth and named for
him, had predicted exposure would be severe. Encapsulating the space
vehicle with ablative material as an additional guard against radiation,
even though it entailed a large weight penalty, was a big selling point
for the heatshield.

The source for the above material is at:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4205/cover.html

[the quoted material is in Chapter 2, in the section entitled
"Spacecraft Development Decision"]

Hope this helps!

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:54:28 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:
> 
> What material was used for radiation shielding in the Apollo capsules, and
> how effective was it?

Just out of curiosity, what's the title of the thread?
> 

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:20:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:
> 
> What material was used for radiation shielding in the Apollo capsules, and
> how effective was it?

Here's another follow-up (this site discusses the Van Allen belt):

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970228a.html

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:04:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk> writes:
>This may have been mentioned already but there's a spec for the translator
>device in World Builders Handbook (and probably one of its predecessors).

There's a spec for it in p.32 of the T4 Central Supply Catalog under
Translator-8 (it also details higher tech versions).

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:16:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>The *subtle* things are stuff like equating "honor" with the Japanese
>Bushido concept that is usually translated as "honor". They have a
>*lot* of similarities. They are *not* the same thing.
>
>Ditto for equating "s'fik" and "face".

Hmm. Letting loose the Kif on the TML.... nasty.

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:
>For an example of translators in action, and the problems you cant go past
>CJ Cherryhs' Chanur series.

You can surpass it slightly with more by the same...

The Foreigner, Inheritor and Invader sequence by CJ Cherryh covers the
problems of dealing with an alien culture really well. I recommend it
wholeheartedly.



Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:17:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Relativistic Missiles

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> writes:

>Any thoughts on whether this would work and if so what the effect on a world
>would be of a 100 dt Scout hitting at 0.3c or other velocities?

See Near-C rocks on the TML FAQ... <sob>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:08:57 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Astrin APC

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> answers:

>Chris Thompson wrote:
>> 
>> Has anyone converted the Astrin APC from GURPS:Star Mercs over to TNE?
>> I would be intrested in seeing any such conversions.
>
>Other way around.  I don't have any TNE materials on-hand, but the
>Astrin was featured in TNE (and possibly as far back as Striker for CT),
>long before G:T.  I know that the Astrin is in Striker II (for TNE), as
>well as in the _Regency Vehicle Guide_ (is that the correct title?  You
>TNEers know what book I mean.).

 "Regency Combat Vehicle Guide" one of the last TNE products. Despite
its combat concentration, it's still a more useful book than T4 Emperor's
Vehicles (which is more useful for its art and color text than for its tech).

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:22:10 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Missing digests

I've been missing digests. How do I get one from the archive?

Does MPGN have an archive web page?

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:25:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Astrin APC

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Astrin APC
...
>Astrin was featured in TNE (and possibly as far back as Striker for CT),
>long before G:T.  I know that the Astrin is in Striker II (for TNE), as
>well as in the _Regency Vehicle Guide_ (is that the correct title?  You
>TNEers know what book I mean.).

  I'm not aware of the Astrin being mentioned under CT (/Striker).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:29:18 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: languages, dialects, accents

>How much does telecommunications help standardize language across the
>Imperium (as opposed to upon any single world) given the time lag in
>interstellar travel?

I believe the media is more important than the time lag to standardization.
If information is primarily via written message (like this mail list) then
local language will have dialect variations. In some cultures in the past
the written and spoken form became (or was always) decoupled. China is a
good example. One official written language, many dialects, or perhaps many
written languages with one primarily read by many, still not related to the
specific language.

If information is primarily transmitted in video or audio formats then the
establishment of Standard Galanglic is much more likely.  So the question
is: Is TNS transmitted as text which is broadcast as email (like the old
teletypes) or read by a local broadcaster in a local dialect? Is it recorded
locally where the news happens and then sent everywhere to be broadcast?
Does more news originate at Capital? This could reinforce the
standardization of language, especially if the feeling is that news
reporters are more trustworthy if they speak "official" Galanglic.

(This is very much the case in the U.S.  Over the past twenty years or so
even local broadcasters strive to speak in the bland
Midwestern/California/New York combined dialect that permeates the national
broadcast networks.)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:35:33 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Astrin APC

Steven Hudson wrote:
> 
> >From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> >Subject: Re: Astrin APC
> ...
> >Astrin was featured in TNE (and possibly as far back as Striker for CT),
> >long before G:T.  I know that the Astrin is in Striker II (for TNE), as
> >well as in the _Regency Vehicle Guide_ (is that the correct title?  You
> >TNEers know what book I mean.).
> 
>   I'm not aware of the Astrin being mentioned under CT (/Striker).

That's why I said "possibly."  I haven't looked at CT Striker in over 15
years.  Anybody have a copy available to check?


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:01:28 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Astrin APC

At 14:35 99/07/25 -0500, Black ICE wrote:

>That's why I said "possibly."  I haven't looked at CT Striker in over 15
>years.  Anybody have a copy available to check?

There is a sample Imperial Marine Grav APC (TL15), but it's not given a 
name.  It may have inspired the Astrin, but they are quite different, apart 
from the different design sequences.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:49:02 -0700
From: Edward Swatschek <edjs@bitslayer.net>
Subject: Re: Astrin APC

At 12:25 99/07/25 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:

 >  I'm not aware of the Astrin being mentioned under CT (/Striker).

The earliest I recall it appearing was in MT (Rebellion Sourcebook).


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:25:03 -0500
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

This gives me alot to think about Steve. My intent was to get opinions then
adapt the criminal code and judicial system. I do realize that these laws would
only apply for Imperial worlds and that other member worlds would have there
own legal systems. Do you see any laws that I have missed that should be
included here?  Thanks!

Alex Ingram

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:52:50 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents

A very good reference on the topic of language which is also a pretty fun 
read is "The Story of English", a companion volume to a PBS special of about 
ten years ago.  I'd wager that most good libraries have both the book and 
tapes of the show.  I highly recommend it for those of you who would like to 
gain a broader knowledge of this topic.  It directly addresses all of the 
issues that have been discussed in this thread.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:09:26 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred?

>The Fer-De-Lance was originally a half sister to the Crysanthenum sharing
>the same forward structure (A sphere) with a different mid section and aft.
>Both classes were rated as Destroyer Escorts


Ahah! It begins to make sense.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:15:52 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Relativistic Missiles

>Normally a ship entering jump will program so that it emerges with a
>reasonable velocity and vector in its target system.  It could be possible
>to program a jump so that the computer operated vessel emerges with a
>relativistic velocity vectored towards a world. It would be very hard to
>stop this.


Actually, I've always wondered about this - whether your continued momentum
is absolute or relative to the local gravity gradient. If it's relative to
the gravity gradient then you're changing the total momentum of the universe
(which would imply not) but if it's local you can bugger around with
potential energy a lot, jumping to the outside of the gravity well, sliding
down to build up speed and then jumping out and repeating the procedure to
build up more. The only way I can see to circumvent this is if part of the
jump fuel is to act as an energy sink to balance this out, but we're talking
about a LOT of gravitational potential for a world like a gas giant, or a
star.

Any opinions, anyone?

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:35:12 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

>I believe SFB, under the scenarios section, had this. I know they had one
>for the H.M.S. Hood dead.


There was a mini campaign called The Lone Gray (sic) Wolf, about a Klingon
C8 Dreadnought on a diplomatic mission to discuss peace terms with the
Federation which became trapped waaaay behind enemy lines and had to run out
through elements of the 4th (I think) Fleet. It had a Bismarck kind of feel
to it, since you'd run into it with light ships and have to harry it and
slow it down to let your heavy cruisers and battle line catch it. Is that
what you were thinking of?

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:33:39 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law 

Alex Ingram wrote:

>Im setting up a legal system for my Traveller universe and one of the
>first things that Im doing is defining what the Imperium sees as legal
>and illegal. If anyone knows of crimes not on the below listing that
>should be there please let me know. There are secondary crimes such as
>Attempted crimes or Accessory to a crime but I have intentionally left
>them out. As in the case of Fraud it has many faces -- Tax, Bank, Wire,
>Insurance, Securities, etc.. Possession and Trafficking can apply to
>various Contraband, Weapons, Drugs, Dangerous Chemicals, Explosives or
>anything else the Imperium wants to control. Please provide me your
>comments. I will further define and build a legal system around them
>which I'll post. If anyone knows of articles that have been published
>let me know.

I would say limit 3I legal code to Imperial High Crimes and Civil crimes
involving contract law.  This means that False Detention / Imprisonment and
Peonage / Slavery is an Imperial High Crime, due to Slavery prohibited by
The Warrant of Restoration. Most High Crimes should flow from the Warrant of
Restoration and its interpretation by Imperial legal scholars over the ages.
Since Imperial Law is not precedent based (Rule of Men not Laws) the
original drafting's should be narrower in effect than in the present day
United States. In other words, very little judicial expansion of existing
laws.

I would expect things like theft, fraud, mutiny to be crimes against Free
Trade, and punished as Imperial High Crimes. Murder on board ship might be a
violation of some Imperial Ministry of Commerce rule rather than an Imperial
crime of itself. Trade would suffer greatly if citizens did not feel safe
aboard ship in even highly patrolled core areas, because one of their fellow
passengers could kill them without fear of law. Murder at an Imperial
Starbase might be a violation of some Imperial Starport Authority rule. I
would remind those reading that murder itself is not a federal crime in the
U.S., although military bases, for instance, prohibit murder through the
Uniform Code of Military Justice. Such crimes committed in the U.S. are
prosecuted by the states. Murder on a world that is a member of the Imperium
would probably be prosecuted locally. Low Law Level worlds might not even
prosecute murder in most circumstances.

Burglary, Trespassing and environmental crimes would only be applicable
against Imperial property. Impersonation, stowaway, Identity theft would be
more crimes against trade. Like forgery and Embezzlement(that spans more
than one world) these crimes could cause a loss of confidence in the ability
of the Imperium to protect trade among worlds.  If I can't trust your Letter
of Credit how can I do business with you? You pursue someone whose skipped
with a jumpship **not** for theft, but because they aren't making their
payments, which is breach of contract, a crime affecting Free Trade.

I think you get the idea. I just don't see the Imperium caring about Public
Solicitation or even stalking. You might make a case for Exploitation of
Children being akin to slavery, but except for things like psi drugs I don't
see possession as being an Imperial crime.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #892
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 893



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Daylight Savings Time
Bismarck and SFB
Re: Daylight Savings Time
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: Real world question
Uplift!
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Re : Tech
Re: Real world question
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Real world question
RE: Imperial Code of Law
Re Languages
Re Timekeeping
Re Astrin APC

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:44:24 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time

>And how fast individual star systems are moving through space does not
>affect how fast time passes for the system, unless the system is for
>some reason moving at relativistic speeds. If I have two clocks that are
>synchronized, take one on a Jump to Alpha Centauri, then jump back, I
>would expect the clocks to still be synchronized.

I believe that the time spent **in** jumpspace does not flow at the same
rate as time in the normal universe. So while "about a week" passes for the
ship in jumpspace "about a week" passes in both systems, **BUT** the "about
a week" on the ship is 606400 secs and the "about a week" in the systems is
604800 secs.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:03:32 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Bismarck and SFB

> >I believe SFB, under the scenarios section, had this. I know they had one
> >for the H.M.S. Hood dead.
>
>
> There was a mini campaign called The Lone Gray (sic) Wolf, about a Klingon
> C8 Dreadnought on a diplomatic mission to discuss peace terms with the
> Federation which became trapped waaaay behind enemy lines and had to run out
> through elements of the 4th (I think) Fleet. It had a Bismarck kind of feel
> to it, since you'd run into it with light ships and have to harry it and
> slow it down to let your heavy cruisers and battle line catch it. Is that
> what you were thinking of?
>
> Nick
>
>
That sound about right

Wayne (CT/HG Tampler wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:29:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings Time

In mail you write:

>>Not really. It's not as if tracking only 24 hours in the day will
>>somehow keep them in synch with earth days.=20
>
> The intent wasn't to keep in synch with Earth, it was a way to keep
> using the familiar units of hours, minutes, and seconds, and to be
> able to use them unchanged.

They can, but not in relation to the sol. That's why I rather expect
that shifts and schedules would be done in chrons and fractions
therefof, and most other timekeeping would still be in hours, minutes
and seconds.

>>> It doesn't? Since when?
>>
>>Check some of the possible misjump results, for one thing. For another,
>>if the ship jumps between two systems moving at different velocities
>>*which* system says the jump took a "week".
>
> Misjumps don't count. By definition, they are jump errors -- we can
> easily have them include temporal errors as well as spatial ones.
>
> And how fast individual star systems are moving through space does not
> affect how fast time passes for the system, unless the system is for
> some reason moving at relativistic speeds. If I have two clocks that are
> synchronized, take one on a Jump to Alpha Centauri, then jump back, I
> would expect the clocks to still be synchronized.

Sorry, atomic clocks are so precise that you can synchronize three of
them, keep one, and send the other two by plane in *opposite*
directions around the earth and measure the time differences due to
relativistic effects! They've *done* this experiment.

They've also measured the difference in time rate between the top and
bottom of a tall building due to the effects of *gravity* on time. The
deeper you are in a gravirty well, the slower time flows.

So you've got the effects of acceleration *and* velocity on the clock
that travels *as well* as the effects of moving around in both the
planetary *and* stellar gravity wells.

I think the only real test would be to have two clocks. One on each of
two ships a few miles apart. One ship does a "null jump" (ie jump to
its current location). The other just sits there. A week later, the
first ship pops out of jump and they compare clocks. 

I'd be willing to bet that they are different. If nothing else, there's
*no* external gravity affecting the ship in jump. Try, the small radius
of the jump buble may affect time as well. But that effect is *very*
unlikely to match the gravity effects of the point the ship left.

Also, since J-Space is obviusly only "loosely" connected to normal
space, expecting the time rates to match, or even have a *fixed*
relationship is a bit much. 

Anyway, given that durations of even *normal* jumps vary, it seems to
only make sense that the ratio of normal time to jump time might vary a
little. That makes the *big* discrepancies in misjumps more reasonable.

It also means that not only are there researchers trying to find a way
to make longer jumps, there would be ones trying to shorten the
*duration* of jumps. Being able to *reliably* make a jump of the normal
distance in only *6* days would be a *major* advantage. Heck, merely
cutting the average duration by an hour or two has imprtant
implications.

For one, it means that your ships have a better chance of *catching*
that ship that just jumped out of the system. If they both have the
same average jump duration, and variance in duration, there's only
about a 25% chance of getting there first. But any change in the
average *or* in the variance can change the odds. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:46:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

In mail you write:

> For an example of translators in action, and the problems you cant go past C
> J Cherryhs' Chanur series.

Definitely. Also, by the end of the trilogy some folks will have
managed to pick up some idea of the concepts behind things like the Kif
term "s'fik" or the mahendosat (can't remember the word) "ranking"
system.

If you can wrap your mind around mahen *or* kif "mindsets" you'll have
made a good start towards being able to play K'kree, Hiver, Vargyr, and
Droyne the way they *should* be played. You'll just need to develop the
"ethology" of the species yourself since available materials are rather
lacking. At least with the Vargyr you can check out research done with
wolves, and try to project that forward.

For K'Kree, I'd pick some sort of herd animal that *fights* rather than
flee. Say buffalo. 

Hivers and Droyne are the real problems.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:49:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

At 12:54 PM 7/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>> 
>> Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:

>Just out of curiosity, what's the title of the thread?

"Moon Landing"  We've just finished off the entire "no stars in the
pictures = faked moon shots" business when the Van Allen Belt argument
reared it's ugly head.  Poster is claiming that 2' of lead was required.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:10:12 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Uplift!

Interesting story here about chimps learning to speak English: 

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/frontpage.html?999

More detail here (feature article):

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/07/25/stifgnusa01004.html?999

... and an editorial comment here:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/07/25/stinwcldr01002.html?999

A separate, unrelated article here about the formation of the moon:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/99/07/25/stinwenws01011.html?999

- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:26:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

In mail you write:

> Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:
>> 
>> I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar
>> trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While
>> it seems possible to estimate a series of data based on *weight,* say
>> the average trade per citizen, the total capacity in metric tons of
>> the merchant fleet and so on, Traveller uses displacement tons
>> everywhere, which are volume. So I am lacking some correspondence.
>> 
>> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What
>> is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
>
> Well, when designing starships using FF&S2, I generally use 1 metric
> ton/m^3 as a default for calculating required maneuver drives.  FF&S2
> uses 14 m^3 equals one dton.

It depends on *what kind* of cargo you are talking about. 

1 dton = 13.5 m^3 or 14 m^3 depending on which rules set you use.

1 ton/m^3 is the density of water. Most foodstuffs average around this.
Grains are lighter, meats, fruits and veggies tend to be denser. You
can look up the density of various metals and rocks to get how many
ton/m^3 they mass. Aluminum is 2.??, Titanium is 4, average rock is
around 3-5, iron and copper are around 8, lead is 11.3, mercury is
13.6, gold is 19.3, and platinum group metals are up around 21-23.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:31:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

In mail you write:

> ----------
>> From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
>> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>> Subject: Average Density of Cargo?
>> Date: Sunday, 25 July, 1999 8:53 AM
>> 
>> I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar 
>> trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While 
> [snip]
>> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What 
>> is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
>> 
>> Any thoughts?
>
> GT uses an average of 5 metric tons per displacement ton.  Don't now if
> it's precise, but it looks a decent figure of merit.  For a real-world
> comparison, 20-ft ISO containers (roughly 3m x 3m x 6 m) are about 4-dtons
> and typically weigh in at around 20 metric tons.

You sure about that? That seems pretty light. It'd be ok for
manufactured goods where most of the container is "air & packing". 

How do they ship stuff like lumber or steel plate? Those will be *much*
denser (lumber around 7-14 tons per dton, steel plate around 112 tons
per dton!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:34:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

In mail you write:

>> GT uses an average of 5 metric tons per displacement ton.  Don't now if
>> it's precise, but it looks a decent figure of merit.  For a real-world
>> comparison, 20-ft ISO containers (roughly 3m x 3m x 6 m) are about 4-dtons
>> and typically weigh in at around 20 metric tons.
>
> That's density 5, around the density of earth IIRC. Seems way too 
> high, unles you transport mainly mineral ores.

No, that's 5 tons per *14* cubic meters. Or a specific gravity of .36.
Lighter than most woods.

Remember! One *displacement* ton is 13.5 to 14 cubic meters.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:51:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Tech

In mail you write:

>>Aren't you still going to have to radiate waste heat?
>>Even if you manage to generate some electrical power from some of the
>>waste heat, there will still be a heat load that needs disposal.
>
> Waste heat is only waste heat if you waste it. Yes there will always be
> losses. The question is how much energy is lost to losses, and is it lost as
> **heat** energy.

Sorry, but in the end *all* losses wind up as heat. That's *basic*
thermodynamics. 

> For example a steam power plant wastes quite a bit of energy in the process
> of creating steam, especially in the form of heating up the air surrounding
> the boiler/reactor. Heat losses around the pipes are a function of the
> insulating properties of the pipe covering.

> Most of the energy of the steam utilized for work is converted by turbines,
> but at most plants the steam coming out of the turbine is used to preheat
> the water going into the boiler this steam is further utilized to seal the
> condensers, and even the hot water that results is used to preheat the
> water. The energy imparted to the steam is used very efficiently.

True, but what you are doing there is improving the efficiency. Even at
100% efficiency, the energy produced is limited by the temperature
difference between the heat source and the heat sink. 

> Initially steam piping wasn't insulated at all and heat losses to the
> atmosphere were very high. Then engineers began wrapping piping. the
> efficiency of the whole plant increased.  On the opposite side of the heat
> equation, very good insulation is used when dealing with very cold
> materials. Where I work we use liquid hydrogen at 2 degrees K.

No, you don't. :-)

Hydrogen *freezes* at something like 15-18 K. Helium I'd believe. 

> What I'm proposing is a kind of thermocouple that will convert some of the
> waste heat to electricity.  The electricity can them be stored in batteries
> or accumulators or used. The system probably won't be able to convert all
> the heat to electricity. And the size of the storage cells will limit the
> amount of energy that can be stored. But we're talking waste heat management
> here.  Radiate the heat away later, when there isn't a heavily armed assault
> vessel ready to vaporize you. And who says that a black globe has no losses.
> You can't break even, but nobody knows how close you might be able to get to
> not breaking even.

You are misunderstanding the terminology. For example, your
thermocouple has to have a "hot" end ans a "cold" end. Energy
production is again dependent on the *difference* in temperature *as
well as* the efficiency with which the temp difference is converted to
energy.

The lower the difference, the less energy gets produced. And it's a 4th
power curve as I recall.

I just did some digging and I can't find the equation. But the
essential point is that efficiency, source temp, and sink temp are
*directly* related. The amount of energy you can produce with an XX
percent efficient "engine" is *determined* by the difference between
the input temp and the output temp.

On a spaceship, the output temp is the temp of the radiator! So no
matter *how* you wiggle around, your stuck with that. Thermodynamics
says it's *impossible* to play some types of game. Your "waste heat" is
what goes out the radiators. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:53:11 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Real world question

>>Just out of curiosity, what's the title of the thread?
>
>"Moon Landing"  We've just finished off the entire "no stars in the
>pictures = faked moon shots" business when the Van Allen Belt argument
>reared it's ugly head.  Poster is claiming that 2' of lead was required.


Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:51:30 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

Alex Ingram wrote:

> This gives me alot to think about Steve. My intent was to get opinions then
> adapt the criminal code and judicial system. I do realize that these laws would
> only apply for Imperial worlds and that other member worlds would have there
> own legal systems. Do you see any laws that I have missed that should be
> included here?  Thanks!
>
> Alex Ingram

There is no end to the criminal laws.

I think you might look into such things as the Napoleanic Code, the
French Constitution, the German laws (name escapes me at the moment),
and the Justinian Code.

There are crimes you have missed, and some you've added that aren't
really separate crimes.  But it would take too much time, and you'd
have to pick a single 'authoritative' source for the criminal law.  And what is
a crime is going to be determined in large part by who or what makes
the laws.  And the Third Imperium, the only reason the Emporer needs
to give to throw you in the slammer, is one that doesn't cause rebellion.

Take a look at my draft on the legal foundations.
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/implaw.htm

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:55:31 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

- ----------
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?
> Date: Sunday, 25 July, 1999 7:31 PM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > ----------
> >> From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
> >> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> >> Subject: Average Density of Cargo?
> >> Date: Sunday, 25 July, 1999 8:53 AM
> >> 
> >> I was toying with som rough macroeconomic estimates for interstellar 
> >> trade in a high tech society, and I have the following problem. While 
> > [snip]
> >> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What 
> >> is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
> >> 
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
> > GT uses an average of 5 metric tons per displacement ton.  Don't now if
> > it's precise, but it looks a decent figure of merit.  For a real-world
> > comparison, 20-ft ISO containers (roughly 3m x 3m x 6 m) are about
4-dtons
> > and typically weigh in at around 20 metric tons.
> 
> You sure about that? That seems pretty light. It'd be ok for
> manufactured goods where most of the container is "air & packing". 

I've usually seen it in the context of containerized military cargoes.
Trucks designed to carry 20-ft ISO boxes or flatracks usually have a max
load of 16 to 20 tons.  That is a cross-country figure, so they may be
assuming the boxes will be loaded light, but it seems unlikely.

Oh, here's another data point.  It's not uncommon for cargo containers to
be washed overboard and drift at sea.  They often float just barely
submerged for quite some time.

The standardized cargo containers in Far Trader are basically ISO boxes.
ISTR one of the designers or playtesters had some connection with the
shipping industry and had confirmed that the cargo density figures were
sensible.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:37:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Real world question

In mail you write:

> Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:
>
> What material was used for radiation shielding in the Apollo capsules, and
> how effective was it?

They didn't *have* shielding. They weren't in the Van Allen belts long
enough to need it. They tried to keep the launches to period when
flares weren't expected. If a flare *had* occured during the mission,
they'd have had an hour or so's warning from satellites (there's an
x-ray surge that travels at the speed of light, followed by the high
energy protons, which tale from 45 minutes to several hours to reach
earth)

The Service Module (SM) was kept pointing towards the sun for this
exact reason. The equipment inside it, especially the liquid hydrogen
would absorb most of the protons. The astronauts would be relatively
safe in the "shadow" of all this material. 

This also affected the lander missions. It's why they couldn't go too
far from the lander. They had to be able to get back, launch, and
rendezvous with the CSM *before* the high energy protons got there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:51:15 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law

> From: "Terry Carlino" 
> I would expect things like theft, fraud, mutiny to be crimes against Free
> Trade, and punished as Imperial High Crimes. Murder on board ship might be a
> violation of some Imperial Ministry of Commerce rule rather than an Imperial
> crime of itself. Trade would suffer greatly if citizens did not feel safe
> aboard ship in even highly patrolled core areas, because one of their fellow
> passengers could kill them without fear of law. 
...
> Burglary, Trespassing and environmental crimes would only be applicable
> against Imperial property. Impersonation, stowaway, Identity theft would be
> more crimes against trade. Like forgery and Embezzlement(that spans more
> than one world) these crimes could cause a loss of confidence in the ability
> of the Imperium to protect trade among worlds.  If I can't trust your Letter
> of Credit how can I do business with you? You pursue someone whose skipped
> with a jumpship **not** for theft, but because they aren't making their
> payments, which is breach of contract, a crime affecting Free Trade.

The Imperium tends to get a bit excited about P****y, which tends to
involve a lot of the issues like 'murder on board ship', skipping, stowaway
and so on.  This is pretty much what the Imperium was created to combat, to
the extent that it was created to do anything other than allow Citizen
Zhunastu to Rule the Galaxy.

It would be fair to put these P****y related crimes at the centre of an
Imperial law code.

Of course, ship registration comes into all this.  The Solomani would tend
to get a bit sarcastic about the application of Imperial law on board their
vessels, and so would the Zhodani, and so on.  Non-Imperial registered
ships would then be considered to be part of their state of origin's
territory, and thus not subject to Imperial law.  This is probably less
true for some non-Imperial states than others.  The IN probably doesn't
recognise certain Vargr states when it is convenient for them not to, for
example.

Then you run into Free Traders.  Some of them are probably effectively
stateless.  Most of these will, however, maintain a nominal home port,
either inside or outside the Imperium.  (Client states could be quite
popular, if they have suitable trade agreements with the Imperium, and a
conveniently loose set of laws.  Of course, they may also have agreements
regarding the enforcement of Imperial law on 'their' ships operating inside
the Imperium.)  Some may even regard themselves as being mini-states in
their own right, or else as being part of nomadic fleet/societies.  It's
unlikely that the IN would accept this kind of excuse.  

In the end the stuff about the Imperium being ruled by sentients, not laws,
breaks down to:  that IN Destroyer has bigger guns than you, and is asking
you to cooperate.

There is another rather basic Imperial law, and it's the one authorising
the use of Imperial Warrants.  With a Warrant, you can make whatever laws
you want within your area of authority, and the Imperial apparatus will
attempt to enforce them.  Just don't foul up, or if you do, don't get
caught.  The other use of an Imperial Warrant is to order the arrest,
execution and fair trial of a preceding possessor of a Imperial Warrant.

Hmm, maybe this is how Emperor Olav implemented his changes to the
functioning of the Imperium - by handing out Warrants to all the Admirals,
authorising them to take charge of the civilian apparatus in their areas of
responsibility (with the assistance of their fleets, of course!).  

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:21:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Languages

>> This is another recurring subject on the TML.  Do we have electronic
>> translators that translate everything that is being said into whatever
>> we prefer to hear?  Do they do that primarily by database matching or
>> primarily by following linguistic rules and guessing from context, much
>> as humans (and at least some other sophonts) do with languages?  What do
>> we hear when the translator isn't working?
>
>Language translation is going to be a *mess*. Especially when you
>consider that it is literally not *possible* to translate between many
>languages in units smaller than a "sentence" (Example, German allows
>long, complicated sentences. It also places the *verb* last. So until
>the verb is spoken, you *can't* translate the sentence. Heck, until
>that point even fellow German speakers aren'r sure what your point is!)
>
And other languages, like russian, often deviate from standardized word
orders. Plus the noun-verb ending patterns, changes in pronunciation with
context (both homonyms and cases where adding a particular ending winds up
being a homonym for a different word with a different ending), and ending
derived assignment of subject vs object vs object_of_the_preposition....

Also, the problems arising from fairly effective translation are even more
amusing. One excersie we did in my russian class was for study partners to
work as follows:
	A translates from russian to english out of book.
	B Translates back to russian.
Do this a few times, and you can wind up with some really spectacular
errors, even if each translation is essentially correct. Certain
applications of this problem have already occurred in real life,
specifically in, and the bible. Many translations of the bible are in fact
translations of translations, like the King James version. (Most bibles in
local tongues were translated either from all-greek sources or all-latin
sources, ranther than from the mixture of Hebrew, Greek, amd Aramaic. The
All-greek sources generally include the original greek for those NT books
in greek. The Latin sources, especially the Vulgate, are generally
translations of the greek versions.) For example, the standard Chruch
Slavonic bible used by the Byzantine Catholics is a translation from the
greek translation used by the Byzantine patriarcate. The King James
translation was taken from the latin vulgate, which was a translation
itself of the greek version, which included translations of the old
testament and a couple of books written in aramaic. Whats more, there is a
"Modern Language Translation" of the King James! And, in most of these, one
small tidbit from the old testament CANNOT be translated with any
assurances of accuracy, since that passage is in the Torah without the jot
and tidles (the vowels)....


William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:21:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Timekeeping

>
>>ObTrav: how do they reconcile all the clocks and calendars in the
>>Imperium to the Imperial Standard? If an Imperial Standard Day is
>>24 hours (ie, the Terran Day), what does a planet do when it has
>>a rotation of 23.5 hours? If you start with clocks synchronized
>>so that high noon is at 12:00 Noon, 24 days later "noon" is in the
>>middle of the night...
>
>Local timekeeping vs. Imperial timekeeping.  The Imperial
>clock/calendar is used for interaction with the Imperium (and
>with other planets and with starships making planetfall); the
>local clock/calendar is used for strictly local matters (like
>local taxes, crop planting, possibly religious holidays, and so
>on). YTUMV.

IMTU, it works much like this, too. But for worlds that vary significantly
(for example, Sols under 16 hours, ormore than 36) generally the locals
will use SST (Sylea Standard Time) and ignore the sol. Also, IMTU, most
starports keep a computer-averaged time baseline by the travels of large
numbers of small atomic clocks... like the one in every starhip's computer
(Again IMTU). It may take a few years to get a viable average, but it will
keep time consensual...

Adventure seed: Having some how stranded players on a world with a day that
is off,  and having gotten them away from the port, have some local
business deal set by local time, right near holiday. The local bumpkins may
know the shift is 3.566432 hours, but will they know when holiday is, so
that the errant travellers can get their annuity payments, TAS benefits,
and such?

Another adventure seed: Passenger comes aboard, bring a large group, and
with some impressive credentials, and says "I'll be back aboard tomorrow at
5" and runs back to his local office. Problem is you know he's going HOME
this trip. Which "2" did he mean? Local Sols? His Homeworld Sols? SST?
Ship's Homeworld Sols? (I've done the latter to PC's... they assumed local
time, but he assumed their homweorld's time. In this case Ship's Reg. HW
Sols > Local Sols > SST > Psnger HW Sols... Fortunately, the passenger was
forgiving, and the PC's may have lost their spot in the clearance list, but
they DID wait for him. Was really fun, since they had recently installed a
Ship's Home Port Time clock in the lounge. And, little did they know, they
got selected by him because he was Born at the planet of registry of the
ship, and wanted to be reminded of home, and still carried a clock on his
real homeworld's time.)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:26:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Astrin APC

>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:06:08 +0100 (BST)
>From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
>Subject: Astrin APC
>
>Has anyone converted the Astrin APC from GURPS:Star Mercs over to TNE?
>I would be intrested in seeing any such conversions.
>
>Chris T

Why Bother? The Astrin was originally an MT Design, IIRC, and it was
converted to TNE for Striker II. [p 94, which is in appendix B.]


William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #893
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 26 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 894



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re Clocks 
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Re : Tech
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Jump Time (was Re: Daylight Savings Time)
re: Imperial Code of Law
re: Lone Gray Wolf (was re:  The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
RE: Economical Cargoes, was Average Density of Cargo?
RE: Imperial Code of Law 
Relativistic Speeds
RE: World building and GT ship building 
Re: Imperial Code of Law
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:32:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Clocks 

>And how fast individual star systems are moving through space does not
>affect how fast time passes for the system, unless the system is for
>some reason moving at relativistic speeds. If I have two clocks that are
>synchronized, take one on a Jump to Alpha Centauri, then jump back, I
>would expect the clocks to still be synchronized.

If you have two sufficiently accurate atmoic clocks, and fly one around the
planet three times, leaving the other at one spot, they will be out of
snych. Have read that the USAF has tried this.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:30:52 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

At 10:22 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>David J. Golden writes:
>>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
>>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
>>possible ...
>
>	Sorry, I'm not following you here. Could you rephrase the 
>	question?

	To my understanding, it is not mathematically possible to have a
reversible mapping from 3 dimensions into 2 dimensions. That is, a
mapping that has the property that for every point in a 3D space,
there exists one and only one corresponding point in the 2D space,
and for every point in the 2D space, there exists one and only one
corresponding point in the 3D space.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:33:32 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

At 08:24 AM 7/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Thursday, July 22, 1999 6:18 PM
>David J. Golden said,
>
>> 	I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
>> raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
>> possible ...
>
>Think of a globe. or an orange.  If you peel of the skin, you essentially
>have a 2 dimensional surface that was overlaid on the on a 3 dimensional
>one.  Every possible location within the lower dimensional area corresponded
>with a point on the higher dimensional one (On the surface of the sphere.),
>but not vice versa.

	Sorry, but a globe is NOT a 3D->2D mapping. It is essentially a
mapping from one 2D frame into another. Both represent a *surface*,
which is 2D. Try this ... map the real world into any 2D
representation, such that for each 3D point there is one and only 2D
point. Hint: don't forget objects at different heights ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:49:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >>
> >> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say... What
> >> is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?
> >
> > Well, when designing starships using FF&S2, I generally use 1 metric
> > ton/m^3 as a default for calculating required maneuver drives.  FF&S2
> > uses 14 m^3 equals one dton.
> 
> It depends on *what kind* of cargo you are talking about.
> 
> 1 dton = 13.5 m^3 or 14 m^3 depending on which rules set you use.
> 
> 1 ton/m^3 is the density of water. Most foodstuffs average around this.
> Grains are lighter, meats, fruits and veggies tend to be denser. You
> can look up the density of various metals and rocks to get how many
> ton/m^3 they mass. Aluminum is 2.??, Titanium is 4, average rock is
> around 3-5, iron and copper are around 8, lead is 11.3, mercury is
> 13.6, gold is 19.3, and platinum group metals are up around 21-23.

I figure that most cargoes will have packing materials (reducing the net
mass per m^3), and that "full" cargo bays still allow for some space for
personnel movement, overhead clearance, etc.  I use 1 metric ton per m^3
as a "rule-of-thumb" figure for generic cargo.  If the ship's usual
cargo is known (for instance, a tanker carrying refined fuel to a system
with neither gas giants nor worlds with significant hydrographics), I
adjust accordingly.

Besides, most of my merchant designs tend to be passenger oriented, and
(IIRC) luggage averages about 1 metric ton per m^3.

Keep in mind that luggage has an important effect on the available cargo
space for merchant ships (at least those with a bias toward passenger
traffic).  Don't forget to subtract the average passenger's luggage
space from a given ship's cargo capacity.  For instance, a standard Far
Trader from T4 can expect to carry up to six High passengers, plus up to
ten Low passengers, thus subtracting up to 6.1 dtons from its 64.9 dton
cargo capacity.

Note that, under T4 standard rates for freight and passengers, a ship
can earn Cr 1000 per ton of space dedicated to freight.  High passengers
earn just under Cr 2000 per dton dedicated to High passengers (Cr 10,000
for the ticket, divided by 5 dtons [4 dtons for the large stateroom, and
1 dton of luggage], with some additional overhead for life support).
Middle passengers earn about Cr 3700 per dton dedicated to Middle
passengers (Cr 8000 for the ticket, divided by 2.1 dtons [2 dtons for
either half of a large stateroom or a private small stateroom, and .1
dton of luggage], plus some overhead for life support).  Low passengers
earn just under Cr 1000 per dton (Cr 1000 for the ticket, divided by
1.01 dtons [low berth plus luggage]).  Of course, Middle passengers
require fewer stewards and medics than either High or Low passengers.

Obviously, a ship with a high ratio of passenger staterooms to cargo
holds requires a smaller maneuver drive (since staterooms have low mass
per m^3) than a ship with a large cargo hold.

Now you see why AuricTech passenger ship designs tend to cater to Middle
passengers....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:41:14 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

At 07:12 PM 7/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
>>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's
not
>>possible ...
>
>Actually Cantor proved a few centuries ago that all N-dimensional spaces
>(for N > 0) have the same cardinality. This means there is a one-to-one
>mapping between points in 2D and 3D.
>
>Any number of mappings are possible. The one Cantor used, if I restrict it
>to a 2D - 3D mapping would be as follows:
>
>Convert all spaces to unit mappings. You can do this by dividing the
>position of whatever space you have by the extent of that space.
Given a 3D
>point with the decimal expansions of its coordinates as follows:
>
>	x1 = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
>	y1 = j1 j2 j3 j4 ...
>	z1 = k1 k2 k3 k4 ...
>
>Then one mapping to 2D space is:
>
>	x2 = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
>	y2 = j1 k1 j2 k2 ...
>

	I'm sorry, I'm just not following this ... could you rephrase this a
bit? I'm not making any sense out of it at all.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:47:40 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Tech

At 09:27 PM 7/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>What I'm proposing is a kind of thermocouple that will convert some of the
>waste heat to electricity.  The electricity can them be stored in batteries

	In order to do this, you have to let the heat "flow downhill" just
like you have to let water flow downhill to generate electricity.
That means that you can only generate electricity from heat if you
have a heat sink at a lower temperature than the source ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:56:05 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

"David J. Golden" wrote:
> 
> At 10:22 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >David J. Golden writes:
> >>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
> >>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's
> not
> >>possible ...
> >
> >       Sorry, I'm not following you here. Could you rephrase the
> >       question?
> 
>         To my understanding, it is not mathematically possible to have a
> reversible mapping from 3 dimensions into 2 dimensions. That is, a
> mapping that has the property that for every point in a 3D space,
> there exists one and only one corresponding point in the 2D space,
> and for every point in the 2D space, there exists one and only one
> corresponding point in the 3D space.

In other words, you map from 3-D to 2-D by approximation.  Ideally, on
larger-scale maps, you have the space to indicate relative altitude by
using such conventions as contour lines.

Of course, the accuracy of your efforts can be enhanced both by using
sophisticated surveying techniques, and by increasing the scale of your
maps (a 1:10,000 scale map is more detailed than a 1:1,000,000 scale
map).  A series of large-scale maps can also include more subtle
adjustments for such factors as the curvature of the world and the
difference (if any) between true (axial) North and magnetic North.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:06:30 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

At 09:56 PM 7/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>"David J. Golden" wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:22 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >David J. Golden writes:
>> >>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question
is
>> >>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's
>> not
>> >>possible ...
>> >
>> >       Sorry, I'm not following you here. Could you rephrase the
>> >       question?
>> 
>>         To my understanding, it is not mathematically possible to have a
>> reversible mapping from 3 dimensions into 2 dimensions. That is, a
>> mapping that has the property that for every point in a 3D space,
>> there exists one and only one corresponding point in the 2D space,
>> and for every point in the 2D space, there exists one and only one
>> corresponding point in the 3D space.
>
>In other words, you map from 3-D to 2-D by approximation.  Ideally, on
>larger-scale maps, you have the space to indicate relative altitude by
>using such conventions as contour lines.

	When I'm talking mapping in this context, I don't mean mapping as in
drawing contour lines or coming up with a rough approximate
representation. I'm talking more in a technical sense of setting up a
mathematically-describable relationship between points in RealSpace
and points in JumpSpace, such that it's possible to start at a known
point in RealSpace, move (via JDrive) to the corresponding point in
JumpSpace, travel through JumpSpace to another position in JumpSpace,
and return to RealSpace at a desired location. 

	It's perfectly possible to map from one 2D space to another. All the
various cartographic representations are mappings from one 2D space
(the surface of an idealized earth sphere) to various other 2D spaces
(the surface of a piece of paper). Going from lat/long to XY and back
is repeatable ... if I put in one coordinate in lat/long, and get the
corresponding XY coordinates on a piece of paper, not only do I know
that I can also convert those XY coordinates back and get my original
lat/long, but I also know that anybody else will get the same
results.

	How do you do this for 3D->2D? I can't just mape from XYZ to X'Y'
coordinates ... for each X'Y' coordinate there's an infinite number
of corresponding Z coordinates. How do I generate the original XYZ
coordinate back out without foreknowledge? And if I somehow "know"
the correct Z coordinate, then it is in fact a 3D coordinate system
...X'Y'Z.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:26:01 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Jump Time (was Re: Daylight Savings Time)

>> some reason moving at relativistic speeds. If I have two clocks that are
>> synchronized, take one on a Jump to Alpha Centauri, then jump back, I
>> would expect the clocks to still be synchronized.
>
>Sorry, atomic clocks are so precise that you can synchronize three of
>them, keep one, and send the other two by plane in *opposite*
>directions around the earth and measure the time differences due to
>relativistic effects! They've *done* this experiment.

Are we talking just microseconds, or even just milliseconds, here?

>They've also measured the difference in time rate between the top and
>bottom of a tall building due to the effects of *gravity* on time. The
>deeper you are in a gravirty well, the slower time flows.

Somehow I don't think I need to keep re-setting my watch whenever I go
up into the upper floors of a tall building.

>So you've got the effects of acceleration *and* velocity on the clock
>that travels *as well* as the effects of moving around in both the
>planetary *and* stellar gravity wells.

Okay, if we're talking something as precise as an atomic clock, you
may have a point. But when I suggested my two-clocks experiment, I was
thinking something on the order of my wristwatch -- the one that, after
10 years and three battery changes, still keeps time accurately enough
that six months after I set to to the CBC Radio Time Signal, it's only
two or three seconds off.

>I think the only real test would be to have two clocks. One on each of
>two ships a few miles apart. One ship does a "null jump" (ie jump to
>its current location). The other just sits there. A week later, the
>first ship pops out of jump and they compare clocks. 
>
>I'd be willing to bet that they are different. If nothing else, there's
>*no* external gravity affecting the ship in jump. Try, the small radius
>of the jump buble may affect time as well. But that effect is *very*
>unlikely to match the gravity effects of the point the ship left.

If the difference is anything less than a few seconds, I'm not going
to sweat it. For most everyday purposes, that's close enough to being
in synch.

>Also, since J-Space is obviusly only "loosely" connected to normal
>space, expecting the time rates to match, or even have a *fixed*
>relationship is a bit much. 

Given that we're dealing with a fictional, hypothetical construct
in the first place, we can give it whatever properties we want.

>Anyway, given that durations of even *normal* jumps vary, it seems to
>only make sense that the ratio of normal time to jump time might vary a
>little. That makes the *big* discrepancies in misjumps more reasonable.

As I said earlier, misjumps don't count.

The important point is, if at Noon on Day 1 of the year 1115 I get into
my ship and do a grand tour of the Dagudashaag Sector, and return at
noon on Day 300, the clock in my bedroom back on my homeworld, from
which I started the grand tour, will more than likely be close enough
to the clock I carried with me that I'm not going to have to worry
about it much. Even a discrepancy of a few minutes is trivial.

Now, if for every 70 days I spend subjectively in jump space (10 jumps),
71 days pass in the real universe (or vice versa), then we're on to
something. But I'm not going to quibble about seconds and/or fractions
thereof. 




     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:31:13 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Imperial Code of Law

Terry Carlino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Murder on a world that is a member of the Imperium would probably be 
prosecuted locally. Low Law Level worlds might not even prosecute murder
 in most circumstances.
>>>>>>>>>>>
I would say the opposite: on a low law level world, murder may be the
*only* crime prosecuted - and it will probably be prosecuted quickly,
harshly, and with finality.

Of course, it may be prosecuted by your victim's brother-in-law, his
drinking buddies from the bar, and a dozen passers-by who think you
really, *really* shouldn't have shot their old buddy whats-his-name.

Even if we aren't talking about vigilante justice, the "fewer laws, harsher
prosecution" probably still stands. A low law level doesn't necessarily
mean the people are lawless, it just means the cops have fewer
reasons/opportunities to harass you - and it also means fewer cops.

A Texas cattletown of the old west may have been almost law level 0,
but the Sheriff could still call a posse together if the need was great
enough - and then there's always the famous bit about the single
Texas Ranger getting off the train...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:58:58 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Lone Gray Wolf (was re:  The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

Nick Bradbeer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
There was a mini campaign called The Lone Gray (sic) Wolf, about a Klingon
C8 Dreadnought on a diplomatic mission to discuss peace terms with the
Federation which became trapped waaaay behind enemy lines and had to run out
through elements of the 4th (I think) Fleet. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
My 1st edition copy has "The Lone Gray Wolf" as a running series of
battle between a C8 Dreadnaught and light-to-medium Kzinti fleet
units - kzinti, the kitty-kats who love missiles and fighter-shuttles.
The Klingons blamed Kzinti treachery, the Kzinti claimed the Klingons
were up to something, the results were that diplomatic negotiations
turned into war, with the C8 DN low on fuel, deep in enemy territory
and in deep trouble.

The Klingon dreadnaught has limited fuel (so it has limits on how often
it can escape a particular task group by outrunning it), no reloads for
its missile tubes, and only a limited repair capability between encounters.

One interesting tactic suggested for the scenario was to take an early
risk, take a bloody nose and capture an enemy light unit reasonably
intact (boarding parties, away!!). This unit could then either be used
as a suicide ship, as a much-needed escort, or (since it *wasn't* low
on fuel) to run at top speed for the Klingon border once the Klingon
dreadnaught was a lost cause.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:15:24 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Economical Cargoes, was Average Density of Cargo?

The cost of transporting per Traveller rules was 1,000 Credit per
displacement ton per jump, which would be I think be equivelant to something
over 100 actual tons of iron or steel. Or a transport cost of about 10
Cr/ton/jump

Would this make the transport of base metals and ores uneconomic compared to
refining and manufacturing locally?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:15:22 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law 

As a matter of interest in the real world when a crime such as murder is
committed on the high seas does the jurisdiction for prosecuting go to the
nation the ship is registered with?
I assume that if the crime was committed in a nations territorial limits
jurisdiction would then go to that nation?

If the above is the case then you can imagine the prisoner transfer
scenarios when a crime is committed on a liner, the suspect caught, and then
having to be transferred back to the vessels  registering world, which could
be many jumps away.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:47:56 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Relativistic Speeds

Given enough fuel, theoretically, a ship accelerating at just 1G can 
*eventually* reach relativistic speed (90-95% of c?)  For those more adept
at physics (and less mathematically challenged than myself), I have a few
questions:

1) How does one translate between CT's "1G acceleration" and kilometers per
second?

2) When CT says that the fuel requirements for the powerplant is calculated
to be adequate for one month's worth of life-support, maneuver drive and
anything else that uses EPs shipboard, how much sustained 1G maneuver does
that include, if the powerplant (and its fuel) were dedicated to the drive
alone?

3) What are the formula for calculating how long it would take (t=) for a
ship accelerating at (nG) to reach a velocity of 269,813 km/sec (approx.
90%c)?

4) What are the formula for calculating the difference in time dilation
between 90%c and 98%c (approx. 293,797 km/sec)?

I realize that the biggest roadblock to relativistic travel is the fuel
requirement.  Even though the pilot may not pass through much time at 98%c,
the engines still must consume enough fuel to sustain the velocity of the
ship (which has now become *much* more massive), every kilometer of the
incredible distance traveled.  The only vaguely conceivable way to do it
would be along the lines of, say, a *massive* electromagnetic 'ram-scoop'
utilized to gather the scarce hydrogen between stars as a continuous source
of fuel all along the way, without adding to the mass of the vessel.  I know
that sounds pretty 'high' sci-fi (though not quite as 'high' as Jump...)

____________________________________________________
ObTrav:

Canon maintains that several worlds inhabited by humaniti are isolated (or
were), because the population arrived there via sub-light 'generation
ships,' or the like.  My view on this is that long before Jump Drive would
have been invented/discovered and utilized effectively, many cultures would
have explored sub-light travel extensively.  And if a generation ship were
called for, to go out and create a colony at a distant star system, then it
is already a 'one-off' affair (meaning that the ship's crew will not be
intending on meeting the people they left on their world of origin ever
again.)  They are striking out new, completely on their own in the pre-jump
universe.

It follows, therefore, that they would likewise not be concerned about the
effect of time dilation at relativistic velocity.  A generation colony ship
(in the pre-jump future) need not take a hundred or a thousand years to
creep to their new home, at least not from the point of view of the ship's
occupants.  If, after a long period of slingshots and acceleration and
generally building up speed, the ship's velocity nears c, then their
destination could be realized well within their lifetime (if not the
lifetimes of those back on their original homeworld).

Even in the post-jump universe, some people may still have a need for
relativistic, sub-light vessels.  To reach star systems that are further
than 6 parsecs away, is an obvious one.  Explorers, escapists, frontiersmen,
anyone who wants to either go very far away, or escape from their
'timeframe' (which wouldn't necessarily even require leaving the subsector).
Of course, from the point of view of anyone (or anything) travelling at 90+%
of c, great distances can be covered in little time.

In the uber-tech of the 3I, it is not inconceivable that a vessel could be
constructed to take maximum advantage of powerplant efficiency and maneuver
drive performance, for the express purpose of achieving relativistic
'maneuver' velocity.  If you don't care about the fact that the trip is,
essentially, one-way, then there are (theoretically) little limits on your
maximum range -- within one lifetime.  Fuel requirements, as I see it, would
be the biggest problem with this whole idea...

Mucho, mucho thanks for any help with the questions above!


- -----------------------------
Hypercleats / ICQ: 8139313
Geek Credentials: tc++ !tm- !tn- ?t4< ?tg< to+ ru+(@) ge+ 3i+ c+(-) jt au+
ls++ pi+ ta@ he(+) hi+ zh+ vi+ da++

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:59:06 -0700
From: "moran" <silente@gte.net>
Subject: RE: World building and GT ship building 

> > What are people's thoughts on world/system building rules.  Which are
> > preferred, including, perhaps, rules from non-Traveller systems?
> >
>
> Core System Generation:
> Classic Traveller/Scouts
>
> Extended System Generation:
> World Builders Handbook with various additions, in particular:
> - from
> http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/Worlds_and_Starports, I use the
> life score if WBH indicates life is present.  - some bits of First In seem useful
> and I'll probably pull them in. There are good ideas dotted throughout this book.
> Also note that Stewart Ferris' world builder deluxe software will generate
> WBH/Pocket Empires/Naval Squadrons stats to your hearts content, which resolves
> alot of the unwieldiness of the WBH book.

> Animals:
> - basic CT animal encounters

> Economics
> - Pocket Empires extensions

What extensions?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:12:36 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law

Antony Farrell wrote:

> As a matter of interest in the real world when a crime such as murder is
> committed on the high seas does the jurisdiction for prosecuting go to the
> nation the ship is registered with?

Generally, the law of the country of registration is in force on the ship.
But other things to consider are where the ship is (assuming it comes to
port), the nationality of the victim, and the nationality of the defendant.
All of these nations, assuming they are different, have some valid claim
to jurisdiction to try the case.

Have no dbout about it.  This is _very_ messy international law.
We have the UN Law of the Sea Treaty to help ease this mess.
IMO, the Imperial Ministry of Justice would have a similar policy
established, after all, with a thousand years of history, I don't think
it is reasonable to believe that the Imperium hasn't addressed it
clearly and with finality.

So, IMTU, Murder in High Space is an Imperial crime, same as within
the extraterritorial area of a starport.  Why?  No one else _clearly_ has
jurisdiction (under a theory of the situs of the crime is the most relevant
place).
[And the Emperor has a monopoly on the lawful use of violence within
the territory he governs - except for self-defense].
However, this is in the nature of a general rule that local nobles can alter, i.e.,
interstellar travellers expect this rule, but aren't surprised if a local noble
decides to do something else.  What else might the noble do?
Dismiss the case, give one world the jurisdiction to prosecute and/or
'deal with' as Mr. Smith suggested, or whatever.


> I assume that if the crime was committed in a nations territorial limits
> jurisdiction would then go to that nation?

Well, a big question is where is the defendant.  What is not unusual
(at least prior Law of the Sea Treaty, which I am not up to date on),
is for a nation with custody of the defendant to actually conduct the
trial, but to use the laws of the nation of registration of the ship
the alleged crime was committed on.  This gets messy politically and
judicially, especially when there are drastic differences between the
laws of the two countries.

> If the above is the case then you can imagine the prisoner transfer
> scenarios when a crime is committed on a liner, the suspect caught, and then
> having to be transferred back to the vessels  registering world, which could
> be many jumps away.

I really doubt that this would happen, though some states may prefer it.
Its much easier for the MoJ to decide which laws to apply (if not its own
as I prefer), and apply those laws.  If there is a return trip, it's sure to be
on the world's dime.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:22:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?
...
>How do they ship stuff like lumber or steel plate? Those will be *much*
>denser (lumber around 7-14 tons per dton, steel plate around 112 tons
>per dton!)

  I've been told that for hardwood imports you end up with lots of empty
space to meet weight limits.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:21:32 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

At 22:35 25/07/1999 +0100, "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> wrote:
>>I believe SFB, under the scenarios section, had this. I know they had one
>>for the H.M.S. Hood dead.
>
>
>There was a mini campaign called The Lone Gray (sic) Wolf, about a Klingon
>C8 Dreadnought on a diplomatic mission to discuss peace terms with the
>Federation which became trapped waaaay behind enemy lines and had to run out
>through elements of the 4th (I think) Fleet. It had a Bismarck kind of feel
>to it, since you'd run into it with light ships and have to harry it and
>slow it down to let your heavy cruisers and battle line catch it. Is that
>what you were thinking of?

I think he was referring to "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" where the Hood
(a Fed CA) is abmushed by 3 or 4 ships (Romulan KRs, I think).

That reminded me more of the "Kobiashi Maru" <sp?> test from STII-TWoK
than the historical battle.

In addition to your "Lone Gray Wolf" scenario (I hadn't thought of the
Bismarck link before) there was "The Pleiades Turkey Shoot" where an
unending stream of out of date (ie early war) Klingon fighters try and
take out a Fed Carrier Battle Group and fail.

I think that this was inspired by a WWII action in the Pacific.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #894
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 26 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 895



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Real world question
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: Real world question
Re: Jump Time (was Re: Daylight Savings Time)
Re: Relativistic Speeds
Re: Relativistic Missiles
Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
re: Lone Gray Wolf (was re:  The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
re: Relativistic Missiles
RE: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Re Languages
Re: Relativistic Missiles
RE: Relativistic Speeds
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
RE: On the nature of Jump Space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:14:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

At 11:53 PM 7/25/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>Just out of curiosity, what's the title of the thread?
>>
>>"Moon Landing"  We've just finished off the entire "no stars in the
>>pictures = faked moon shots" business when the Van Allen Belt argument
>>reared it's ugly head.  Poster is claiming that 2' of lead was required.
>
>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)

To survive the Van Allen Belts
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:00:33 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

I wrote:
> >> What I am looking for is a quick and dirty rule of thumb, say...
> >> What is the average *density* of interstellar cargo and freight?

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> It depends on *what kind* of cargo you are talking about. 

Why, of course! The question is, the *average* density across all 
cargoes in interstellar trade, in a typical TL-12+ society. I am not 
talking about details, I am talking about an aggregate macroeconomic 
number. Something that allows a conversion between total weight 
traded and total volume traded. Actually, if I had both numbersm I 
would have the average density I want.

Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:07:11 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

> I figure that most cargoes will have packing materials (reducing the net
> mass per m^3), and that "full" cargo bays still allow for some space for
> personnel movement, overhead clearance, etc.  I use 1 metric ton per m^3
> as a "rule-of-thumb" figure for generic cargo.  If the ship's usual
> cargo is known (for instance, a tanker carrying refined fuel to a system
> with neither gas giants nor worlds with significant hydrographics), I
> adjust accordingly.

Yep, for any specific ship, it's easy, but roughly 70% of all trade 
is going to happen with massive freighters which won't use small 
containers. Ores won't have packing materials.

Taking the density of water as the average density of *all* traded 
cargoes seems too low. Some real world estimates I've seen are more 
between 2 and 3, not 1, but then again that's *planetary* trade. 
Containers full with liquid seem to be out of profitable interstellar 
trade in most cases, so that might push the density up.

Remember, I am talking *macro* here.

Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 01:22:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Real world question

In mail you write:

> At 12:54 PM 7/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>>> 
>>> Need this info for a net-debate in alt.conspiracy:
>
>>Just out of curiosity, what's the title of the thread?
>
> "Moon Landing"  We've just finished off the entire "no stars in the
> pictures = faked moon shots" business when the Van Allen Belt argument
> reared it's ugly head.  Poster is claiming that 2' of lead was required.

Yeah, if you establish an orbit *in* the van Allen belts. Not if iyou
are merely passing thru *quickly*.

It's like Chernobyl. You can actually walk thru the area with nothing
more than a dust filter and a lightweight plastic suit to keep from
getting contaminated material other you and your clothing. 

But if you want to *live* there, you'll need better shielding. 

Same principle.

Also, heavy shielding, but *less* that a couple of *meters* of
rock/metal/whatever will actually *cause* trouble when cosmic rays hit
it and generates showers of secondary particles. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 01:29:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump Time (was Re: Daylight Savings Time)

In mail you write:

>>> some reason moving at relativistic speeds. If I have two clocks that a=
> re
>>> synchronized, take one on a Jump to Alpha Centauri, then jump back, I
>>> would expect the clocks to still be synchronized.
>>
>>Sorry, atomic clocks are so precise that you can synchronize three of
>>them, keep one, and send the other two by plane in *opposite*
>>directions around the earth and measure the time differences due to
>>relativistic effects! They've *done* this experiment.
>
> Are we talking just microseconds, or even just milliseconds, here?

Probably nanoseconds. But my point is that you could send three
different clocks via three different ships and they *wouldn't* be in
synch once they arrived.

Also, once you established the time it took for light to cross between
the two systems, and used that figure to correct time signals
transmitted between the system, none of the transported clocks would be
in synch with the place they started.

>>They've also measured the difference in time rate between the top and
>>bottom of a tall building due to the effects of *gravity* on time. The
>>deeper you are in a gravirty well, the slower time flows.
>
> Somehow I don't think I need to keep re-setting my watch whenever I go
> up into the upper floors of a tall building.
>
>>So you've got the effects of acceleration *and* velocity on the clock
>>that travels *as well* as the effects of moving around in both the
>>planetary *and* stellar gravity wells.
>
> Okay, if we're talking something as precise as an atomic clock, you
> may have a point. But when I suggested my two-clocks experiment, I was
> thinking something on the order of my wristwatch -- the one that, after
> 10 years and three battery changes, still keeps time accurately enough
> that six months after I set to to the CBC Radio Time Signal, it's only
> two or three seconds off.

Given that there are *millions* of seconds in a year (about 31
million), a one part in a million difference in time rates between two
worlds (easy enough to do via gravity or velocity differences) would
result in a 31 second difference at the end of a year.

This is one of those things that makes timekeeping between different
worlds "interesting". For example, it only takes a mere 424 km/sec to
get that 1 in a million time difference. This is a *low* velocity for
Traveller ships. It's less than 20 times Earth's orbital velocity. But
not *that* out of line for the velocity difference between *stars*.

>>I think the only real test would be to have two clocks. One on each of
>>two ships a few miles apart. One ship does a "null jump" (ie jump to
>>its current location). The other just sits there. A week later, the
>>first ship pops out of jump and they compare clocks.=20
>>
>>I'd be willing to bet that they are different. If nothing else, there's
>>*no* external gravity affecting the ship in jump. Try, the small radius
>>of the jump buble may affect time as well. But that effect is *very*
>>unlikely to match the gravity effects of the point the ship left.
>
> If the difference is anything less than a few seconds, I'm not going
> to sweat it. For most everyday purposes, that's close enough to being
> in synch.

Try telling that to an astrogator. After boosting at one g for a couple
of hours, you are moving 72 km/sec. 72 km is an ok error in deep space.
It can be fatal near a planet.

> The important point is, if at Noon on Day 1 of the year 1115 I get into
> my ship and do a grand tour of the Dagudashaag Sector, and return at
> noon on Day 300, the clock in my bedroom back on my homeworld, from
> which I started the grand tour, will more than likely be close enough
> to the clock I carried with me that I'm not going to have to worry
> about it much. Even a discrepancy of a few minutes is trivial.
>
> Now, if for every 70 days I spend subjectively in jump space (10 jumps),
> 71 days pass in the real universe (or vice versa), then we're on to
> something. But I'm not going to quibble about seconds and/or fractions
> thereof.

It depends on how much time you spent in various different gravity
fields, and what sort of accelerations you ship used and for how long. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 01:49:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic Speeds

In mail you write:

> Given enough fuel, theoretically, a ship accelerating at just 1G can 
> *eventually* reach relativistic speed (90-95% of c?)  For those more adept
> at physics (and less mathematically challenged than myself), I have a few
> questions:
>
> 1) How does one translate between CT's "1G acceleration" and kilometers per
> second?

1 g of acceleration means that your velocity ids changing by 9.8 meters
per second every second. In most Traveller stuff, we simplify the 9.8
to 10. 

Here are the basic formulas:

V = A * T
D = .5 * A * T^2

V = velocity in meters per second (m/s)
A = acceleration in meters per second per second (m/s^2)
T = time in seconds
D = distance in meters

1 km/s = 1000 m/s
1 g = 10 m/s^2

1000 = 10 * T
100 = T

So it takes 100 seconds at 1 g to reach 1 km/s.

D = .5 * 10 * 100^2
D = 5 * 100^2
D = 5 * 10000
D = 50000

And while accelerating to 1 km/s at 1 g, you covered a distance of
50,000 km.

> 2) When CT says that the fuel requirements for the powerplant is calculated
> to be adequate for one month's worth of life-support, maneuver drive and
> anything else that uses EPs shipboard, how much sustained 1G maneuver does
> that include, if the powerplant (and its fuel) were dedicated to the drive
> alone?

It includes one month at max accel. 

> 3) What are the formula for calculating how long it would take (t=) for a
> ship accelerating at (nG) to reach a velocity of 269,813 km/sec (approx.
> 90%c)?

Ok, that gets uglier, as the formulas I gave above quit giving the
right answers *long* before you reach 90% of c. 

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(a*t/c)

sinh, cosh, and tanh are *hyperbolic* functions, not the regular trig
functions. 

> 4) What are the formula for calculating the difference in time dilation
> between 90%c and 98%c (approx. 293,797 km/sec)?

tau = sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)   Or tau = arcsin(cos(1-v^2/c^2))
gamma = 1/tau

so at 90% of c, tau = sqrt(1-.9^2) = sqrt(.19) = ~0.44
And therefore gamma = ~2.29

So the time rate of the observer at .9 c is 44% of that of the one "at
rest". Likewise, the moving observer is "contracted" 44% in the
direction of motion. And the "relativistic mass" would be 2.29 times
the rest mass.

For 98% of c, tau is ~0.20 and gamma is ~5.03.

Something that may help is this. If you graph v vs tau using units of c
for v, you get a circle of radius one centered on the origin. 

> I realize that the biggest roadblock to relativistic travel is the fuel
> requirement.  Even though the pilot may not pass through much time at 98%c,
> the engines still must consume enough fuel to sustain the velocity of the
> ship (which has now become *much* more massive), every kilometer of the
> incredible distance traveled.

You just flunked basic phsyics. It takes *no* fuel to maintain *any*
velocity. As an example *we* are moving at 90% of c with respect to
many distant galaxies. 

It takes fuel to *change* velocity. That's is change speed *or* change
direction. Both are covered by "acceleration".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:22:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic Missiles

In mail you write:

>>Normally a ship entering jump will program so that it emerges with a
>>reasonable velocity and vector in its target system.  It could be possible
>>to program a jump so that the computer operated vessel emerges with a
>>relativistic velocity vectored towards a world. It would be very hard to
>>stop this.
>
> Actually, I've always wondered about this - whether your continued momentum
> is absolute or relative to the local gravity gradient. If it's relative to
> the gravity gradient then you're changing the total momentum of the universe
> (which would imply not) but if it's local you can bugger around with
> potential energy a lot, jumping to the outside of the gravity well, sliding
> down to build up speed and then jumping out and repeating the procedure to
> build up more. The only way I can see to circumvent this is if part of the
> jump fuel is to act as an energy sink to balance this out, but we're talking
> about a LOT of gravitational potential for a world like a gas giant, or a
> star.

I prefer to conserve linear momentum, and have the ship emerge with the
same *absolute* vector as it entered. 

Angular momentum is a *real* mess, which I don't want to get into.
Suffice it to say that a ship *does* have angular momentum relative to
the galaxy, the star it jumped from, and maybe even the planet nearby. 

If these are conserved, the ship *should* come oooout with a pretty
messy spin. I'm just going to assume that J-space handles that
*somehow*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:55:15 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

I have noticed a large number of contributers to this mailing list still play 
Classic Traveller or elements of it quite regularly (for example High Guard). 
I for one have worn my little black books out and with the publishing of T4 
found myself using them (CT) more and the MegaTraveller books less. How many 
of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials? AND, 
would you prefer to see the republishing pure, as in the original format, or 
would you like to see some editing or "up dating" done? 

I hope that Mr. Miller is out there watching and see the obvious advantage to 
providing a classic role playing game to the younger gaming public, 
especially with SW:Episode 1 out there now. Third Imperium <--> Old Republic 
<--> Third Imperium; see my point? 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:07:08 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

At 23:41 24/07/1999 -0500, Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Trespassing

That's not even a crime around here (UK) - it's a civil action.

Overall, I'd agree with Bloo - very few Imperial Crimes but with
wide scope and lots of discretion to the nobles on how things work.

So, perhaps:

	No Slavery.

	No Piracy.

	No Weapons of Mass Destruction.

	Acknowledge the Imperial Calendar.

Let the Piracy clause cover theft, injury or damage to persons or property
under Imperial control and you get attacking Naval Bases, starports
ignoring interdiction and shooting the Emperor thrown in for free.


Phil Kitching


- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:22:46 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: re: Lone Gray Wolf (was re:  The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

At 11:58 PM 7/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Nick Bradbeer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>There was a mini campaign called The Lone Gray (sic) Wolf, about a Klingon
>C8 Dreadnought on a diplomatic mission to discuss peace terms with the
>Federation which became trapped waaaay behind enemy lines and had to run out
>through elements of the 4th (I think) Fleet. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>My 1st edition copy has "The Lone Gray Wolf" as a running series of
>battle between a C8 Dreadnaught and light-to-medium Kzinti fleet
>units - kzinti, the kitty-kats who love missiles and fighter-shuttles.
>The Klingons blamed Kzinti treachery, the Kzinti claimed the Klingons
>were up to something, the results were that diplomatic negotiations
>turned into war, with the C8 DN low on fuel, deep in enemy territory
>and in deep trouble.

This would make an interesting strategic level PBEM.  A lone Solomani BB,
500kt or so, lured into the Vegan Autonomous District on the eve of the 2nd
Solomani Rim War, before the sector knows of Strephon's assination.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:24:44 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

At 03:24 PM 7/23/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> > BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
>> they
>> > call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
>> >
>> 
>> I'd like a Half-Kilo with cheese, a large coke and fries.
>> 
>> ...a half-kilo of coke and some cheesy-fries?
>
>Half a kilo with cheese??????????  That sucker'd weigh over a *pound*.
>
>I seriously doubt they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there a '112 Grammer'.
>
>Keven
>
        Well, I was in  Mickey-Dee's this afternoon in two different
provinces and the sign said "quarter pounder".

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
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	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:39:23 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

Mr. Miller has floated the idea around.  Sounded like he wants to publish
combined editions, e.g. Adventures, Supplements, Double Adventure... putting
all of the adventures into one book, all supplements into another, etc.  It
would be a republication rather than an edition.  My vision (though it may
be completely off base) is hardcover books with pretty dust jackets, tomes
that would sit nicely on a shelf or desktop cubby.  Crazy, I know.  But
every group needs a dreamer, right? ... Right? ... Hello?  :-D

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SciFiFan56@aol.com>
> I have noticed a large number of contributers to this mailing list still play
> Classic Traveller or elements of it quite regularly (for example High Guard).
> I for one have worn my little black books out and with the publishing of T4
> found myself using them (CT) more and the MegaTraveller books less. How many
> of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials? AND,
> would you prefer to see the republishing pure, as in the original format, or
> would you like to see some editing or "up dating" done?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:16:06 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

At 22:41 25/07/1999 -0400, goldendj@mail.pcisys.net wrote:
<snip>
>>Given a 3D point with the decimal expansions of its coordinates as follows:
>>
>>	x1 = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
>>	y1 = j1 j2 j3 j4 ...
>>	z1 = k1 k2 k3 k4 ...
>>
>>Then one mapping to 2D space is:
>>
>>	x2 = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
>>	y2 = j1 k1 j2 k2 ...
>>
>
>	I'm sorry, I'm just not following this ... could you rephrase this a
>bit? I'm not making any sense out of it at all.

I think what is meant is:

if your 3D coords are

x = 1.2341234...
y = 5.6756756...
z = 8.9089089...

then trans form to:

x' = 1.2341234...
y' = 5.86970586970...

(or as 1D: x = 1.58269370458....)

So to get a given number of significant figures in your position (say n),
you would need an n digit number for your x coord and a 2n digit number
for your y coord.

You could code it so that you had a 1.5n number of digits in each.


- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:16:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Relativistic Missiles

I don't like the idea of an astrogator being able to plot a jumpspace exit
vector that gives her ship relativistic velocities in the target system.

How about this - jumpspace acts as a velocity sink/source. A vessel,
on arrival, has its velocity "adjusted" to match that of the gravity well
(star or planet) that precipitated it out of jumpspace.

To create the smoothest jumpspace entry, the astrogator attempts
to match the velocity of her target gravity well best she can - therefore
jumpspace will asborb or provide the minimum energy, simplifying the
equations and drive settings - and, incidentally, getting rid of the
"accelerate to near-C and jump so you're pointed at his homeworld"
problem.

It's amazing how many physicis problems you can handwave into
jumpspace....<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:00:30 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

on Sunday, July 25, 1999 7:34 PM
David J. Golden said,

> 	Sorry, but a globe is NOT a 3D->2D mapping. It is essentially a
> mapping from one 2D frame into another. Both represent a *surface*,
> which is 2D. Try this ... map the real world into any 2D
> representation, such that for each 3D point there is one and only 2D
> point. Hint: don't forget objects at different heights ...

I'll agree that you cannot map a given 3D space onto a 2D space with a 1to1
relationship, given that both spaces are infinite, or about the same size if
finite. (Size being relative to the smaller dimensional (i.e. 2D space).

You can however map the 2D space 1 to 1 onto the 3D space, the simplest
manner of such being to fix the coordinate value of the extra dimension in
the 3D space. X2D=X3D, Y2D=Y3D, Z3d=5.

Therefore if jumpspace has more dimensions than our space you could map our
space onto it.  Of course in the case of fixed extra coordinates you are
really binding yourself into the original dimensions.

If the extra dimension was a time element than you could transit from
x1,y1,z1,now to x2,y2,z2,1week_from_now.  But then you would essentially be
traversing regular space with a different location at each point in time.

I suppose that if jumpspace had a either a different relativistic limit, or
the coordinates weren't 1 for 1 so that a difference in coordinates of 1M in
jump space might equal 1K difference in our space.  If a jump field where
discovered by accident you could through trial and error establish equations
to predict your trip destination given a set strength of jump field.  Not
being able to stay in jump space for more than 1 week (in normal controlled
conditions) and having the field itself insulate you from the
fabric/substance of jumpspace would preclude being able to gather much, if
any experimental data in order to build a jump space thruster to either
allow for altering your course mid jump, or speeding you on your trip.

G.D.D.
======
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -
Albert Einstein

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:21:26 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Re Languages

William wrote :
- ------------------
And other languages, like russian, often deviate from standardized word
orders. Plus the noun-verb ending patterns, changes in pronunciation with
context (both homonyms and cases where adding a particular ending winds up
being a homonym for a different word with a different ending), and ending
derived assignment of subject vs object vs object_of_the_preposition
- --------------------------------

This is my problem with teaching myself russian - Declension.  It's a b...
:)
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:34:14 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Relativistic Missiles

Nick Bradbeer writes:
>Actually, I've always wondered about this - whether your continued
>momentum is absolute or relative to the local gravity gradient.
<snipped>
>Any opinions, anyone?

	Don't loose too much sleep over it :-)

	IMTU, the ship maintains momentum relative to the local
	gravity well. This is simply for convenience, if any
	physical objections are raised I will wave my hands with
	abandon.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:42:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Relativistic Speeds

Justice Hypercleats writes:
<snipped>
>1) How does one translate between CT's "1G acceleration" and kilometers
>per second?

	"1G acceleration" is a rate of change in velocity, not a
	velocity. "Kilometers per second," on the other hand, is a
	velocity. 1G = 10 m/s^2, that is a change in velocity of
	10 m/s in one second (if you start at 1,000 m/s and accelerate
	in the same direction at 1G for 10 seconds, you will have a
	velocity if 1,100 m/s).

<snipped>
>3) What are the formula for calculating how long it would take (t=) for a
>ship accelerating at (nG) to reach a velocity of 269,813 km/sec (approx.
>90%c)?

	t = v/a

<snipped>

	Hope this helps.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:38:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: allensh <allensh@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

I read Sword Worlder's message about Marc thinking of
republishing Classic Traveller. I agree with his ideas
for how it should be packaged. In the absence of a new
edition of Traveller (which is what I would rather
see), I think this is an excellent idea, as it would
give those of us who don't own these materials a
chance to use them, and maybe pave the way for a new
edition.

Allen

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:51:21 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: On the nature of Jump Space

David J. Golden writes:
>To my understanding, it is not mathematically possible to have a
>reversible mapping from 3 dimensions into 2 dimensions. That is, a
>mapping that has the property that for every point in a 3D space,
>there exists one and only one corresponding point in the 2D space,
>and for every point in the 2D space, there exists one and only one
>corresponding point in the 3D space.
and
>Sorry, but a globe is NOT a 3D->2D mapping. It is essentially a
>mapping from one 2D frame into another. Both represent a *surface*,
>which is 2D. Try this ... map the real world into any 2D
>representation, such that for each 3D point there is one and only 2D
>point. Hint: don't forget objects at different heights ...

	I don't see that it is necessary to map jumpspace to real
	space as you are suggesting cannot be done.  Rather, imagine
	that real space is a two-dimensional plane to those in it,
	but is the surface of a sphere to those that can perceive 
	jump space.  In this way, the shortest distance between two
	points appears to be along the surface, but jump drive 
	allows one to take a shorter route.

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #895
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 26 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 896



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
RE: velocity and Jumpspace
Re: Ship designations
Re: Average Density of Cargo?
Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)
Re: Re Languages
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Lone Gray Wolf (was re:  The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 
Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Real world question
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re : Tech
Re: Real world question
Re: Re Astrin APC
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Real world question
Re:Tech
Re: languages
Re:  Imperial Code of Law (Long)
RE: Imperial Code of Law 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:18:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

>From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
>Subject: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
...
>of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials? AND, 
>would you prefer to see the republishing pure, as in the original format, or 
>would you like to see some editing or "up dating" done?

  The advantage of the on-going CD-ROM project (is that in the FAQ?) is
that it costs much less to get it "re-printed" (probably by close to an 
order of magnitude), and that it's of value to people who already have
many or all of the LBB's; i.e., would I buy a book compilation of all of
the Adventures & Double Adventures, and would my answer be yes instead
of no if it were an electronic format to simplify my records and the
creation of player handouts or PBEM ops? (No, and Yes, respectively).

  There's also a heck of a lot of other financial considerations against
hard-copy vs. CD release, but that's been gone over before.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:03:58 -0400
From: Thomas Jones-Low <tjoneslo@softstart.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

> I have noticed a large number of contributers to this mailing list still play 
> Classic Traveller or elements of it quite regularly (for example High Guard). 
> I for one have worn my little black books out and with the publishing of T4 
> found myself using them (CT) more and the MegaTraveller books less. How many 
> of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials? AND, 
> would you prefer to see the republishing pure, as in the original format, or 
> would you like to see some editing or "up dating" done? 

> I hope that Mr. Miller is out there watching and see the obvious advantage to 
> providing a classic role playing game to the younger gaming public, 
> especially with SW:Episode 1 out there now. Third Imperium <--> Old Republic 
> <--> Third Imperium; see my point? 

	If you want the text of the CT books (somewhat updated) and can ignore
rules (or want new rules) these are being published by Steve Jackson
Games http://www.sjgames.com as a GURPS add on. I looked through
GT:FirstIn (the Scouts book) and decided not to buy it because
everything it covered (except the GURPS specific items) I already had in
either Book 6 (Scouts) or the MT Referee's Guide or TNE: Worldbuilds
guide. The Orignial GT book covers much of the CT books and has the
Library reference. 
	Not to start flame wars, but has anyone compared the background (not
rules!!) between GT and CT or MT or TNE or T4?

- -- 
	Thomas Jones-Low		JobScheduler for Oracle
	tjoneslo@softstart.com		
	Ph: 802-652-1596		http://www.softstart.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:10:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

Sword Worlder writes:
>Mr. Miller has floated the idea around.  Sounded like he wants to publish
>combined editions, e.g. Adventures, Supplements, Double Adventure...
>putting all of the adventures into one book, all supplements into another,
>etc.  It would be a republication rather than an edition.  My vision
>(though it may be completely off base) is hardcover books with pretty dust
>jackets, tomes that would sit nicely on a shelf or desktop cubby.  Crazy,
I >know.  But every group needs a dreamer, right? ... Right? ... Hello?  :-D

	I'm there! New LBB's, hardcover, CD, just do it!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:18:41 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: velocity and Jumpspace

Walter Smith writes:
<snipped>
>To create the smoothest jumpspace entry, the astrogator attempts
>to match the velocity of her target gravity well best she can - therefore
>jumpspace will asborb or provide the minimum energy, simplifying the
>equations and drive settings - and, incidentally, getting rid of the
>"accelerate to near-C and jump so you're pointed at his homeworld"
>problem.
<snipped>

	I have always imposed a penalty for attempting to jump with
	a high v relative to the local gravety well.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:55:40 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship designations

Ian or Katts wrote:

>> And on top of these genuine 
>>differences are deliberate politically inspired misnomers, like the new Japanese 
>>"support ship". Honest Govn'r that big flat area on top's just to allow quick 
>>handling of cargo, and it just made sense to put all the superstructure off to 
>>starboard. The large full length deck below, a vehicle deck, honest. And the 
>>large lifts linking the "vehicle" deck with topside, well we might want to move 
>>the "vehicles" in a hurry. A carrier, nah never, would I lie to you gov. 
>
>The British also pulled this stunt with their 'through deck cruisers',

Well, the RN `through deck cruisers' was to get around a UK Government
that was against carriers (or defence spending in general).

The Japanese effort is to get around their constitution that was, to an
extent, enforced on them after WWII.

> and
>the Americans often forgot to count the Iwo Jima class CVLs when doing
>comparisons with the Soviet navy (just like they forgot to count all the
>tanks in the maintainence pools when comparing tank numbers).

Perhaps because the Iwo Jimas aren't CVLs - they are LPHs.

>To haul this back onTrav, note that Famile Spofulam always practices full
>disclosure with the class names of their ships - Leeegals really earned
>their keep with 'Fast Extraction Vessels' and 'Exploratory Trader'. And of
>course the 'Peaceful Magnetic Device' that is the FS Gauss Gun (note to
>self ... check if it could get satellites into orbit).

:>

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:44:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Average Density of Cargo?

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> GT uses an average of 5 metric tons per displacement ton.  Don't now if
>> it's precise, but it looks a decent figure of merit.  For a real-world
>> comparison, 20-ft ISO containers (roughly 3m x 3m x 6 m) are about 4-dtons
>> and typically weigh in at around 20 metric tons.
>
>You sure about that? That seems pretty light. It'd be ok for
>manufactured goods where most of the container is "air & packing".
>
>How do they ship stuff like lumber or steel plate? Those will be *much*
>denser (lumber around 7-14 tons per dton, steel plate around 112 tons
>per dton!)

The figures are about right; there is a limit on loading which is somewhere
around 20 to 30 metric tonnes for standard freight containers. I recall
that 60 metric tonnes exceeded limits for shipping normally. It's a while
since I last looked at the standard.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:41:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: languages, dialects, accents (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #885)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> For an example of translators in action, and the problems you cant go past C
>> J Cherryhs' Chanur series.
>
>Definitely. Also, by the end of the trilogy some folks will have
>managed to pick up some idea of the concepts behind things like the Kif
>term "s'fik" or the mahendosat (can't remember the word) "ranking"
>system.

There are actually five books, unless you're counting "Chanur's Venture",
"The Kif Strike Back" and "Chanur's Homecoming" as one book. The others are
"The Pride of Chanur" and "Chanur's Legacy".

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:07:44 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re Languages

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 26 July 1999 03:22
Subject: Re Languages



<snip>

>Also, the problems arising from fairly effective translation are even more
>amusing. One excersie we did in my russian class was for study partners to
>work as follows:
> A translates from russian to english out of book.
> B Translates back to russian.
>Do this a few times, and you can wind up with some really spectacular
>errors, even if each translation is essentially correct.

Ahhhh yes! The two famous examples of the reverse ie Eng => Rus => Eng
(translated by a CIA Computer experiment in the 60's IIRC) are :

Out of sight, Out of Mind => Blind Idiot

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak => The Vodka is good, but the
meat is rotten.

This is almost as good as IBM Voice type, that I was using recently to
transcribe some corporate video's into scripts for rewriting. It translated
"Human Beings" as "Ukrainian Barons", and "Utensils" as "Used Pencils".
Methinks we still have some progress to be made <g>.

All the best,

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
...To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:24:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

Thomas Jones-Low wrote:
> 
>         Not to start flame wars, but has anyone compared the background (not
> rules!!) between GT and CT or MT or TNE or T4?

CT Is the classic 3rd Imperium, GT is an alternate, "Strephon steps out
of the shower" CT without the Rebellion and Collapse introduced in MT
and TNE, (stipulated by SJG's contract with Marc, btw). T4 is way before
'em all. So far the background's are all compatible, though, IMO.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:27:42 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

Hi-
  I'd love to see Mr. MM put out a new/old Traveller. Gurps has done a great 
job of giving us consolidated volumes of source data but many of us like the 
old character creation, ship building, etc. Personally, I'd like to see the 
classic character creation, a single "official/canon" method of ship 
building- classic mode for quick,simple ships with a compatable gearhead mode 
for those that like to tinker, and a millenia that has established empires, 
conflict, as well as vast areas ripe for exploration/exploitation. I think T4 
was on to something locking out whole sectors for GM development with the 
promise of no canon publication for those areas.
  We need to face it- to survive Traveller needs to consolidate all us 
Classic, Megas, TNE's, T4's, and GT's into one buying block. It's the only 
way FLGS will give it the shelf space to promote it and grow a new audience. 
I can speak with some knowledge on this- I own/operate a FLGS. I have GT 
front and center on display and talk it up as THE sci-fi game to play. 
Result- in six weeks I've sold three books. And those were to one guy wanting 
them as source books for another game. If I wasn't an old geezer Traveller 
myself, the game would now be in some back corner gathering dust.
   So that's my suggestion- we all put away our favorite versions, 
consolidate and refine the best of all versions, and lobby Mark to hurry up 
and finish T5.
    J.LaRosee

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:46:16 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Lone Gray Wolf (was re:  The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

>My 1st edition copy has "The Lone Gray Wolf" as a running series of
>battle between a C8 Dreadnaught and light-to-medium Kzinti fleet
>units - kzinti, the kitty-kats who love missiles and fighter-shuttles.
>The Klingons blamed Kzinti treachery, the Kzinti claimed the Klingons
>were up to something, the results were that diplomatic negotiations
>turned into war, with the C8 DN low on fuel, deep in enemy territory
>and in deep trouble.


My apologies - we played the Federation border variant. It was indeed the
Kzinti.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:38:29 EDT
From: SciFiFan56@aol.com
Subject: Re: Which starship construction/combat rules preferred? 

Geez guys, I was asking a serious question about which version of our 
favorite game was perferred for play! Not the various natures of McDonald's 
sandwiches in Europe! 


In a message dated 7/26/99 8:27:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:

> >> > BTW, what do they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there?  I know in France
>  >> they
>  >> > call it the Royale, but the French have always been a bit weird...
>  >> >
>  >> 
>  >> I'd like a Half-Kilo with cheese, a large coke and fries.
>  >> 
>  >> ...a half-kilo of coke and some cheesy-fries?
>  >
>  >Half a kilo with cheese??????????  That sucker'd weigh over a *pound*.
>  >
>  >I seriously doubt they call a 'Quarter Pounder' up there a '112 Grammer'.
>  >
>  >Keven
>  >
>          Well, I was in  Mickey-Dee's this afternoon in two different
>  provinces and the sign said "quarter pounder".
>  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:51:20 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Possible spoiler] The Fighter Debate & a New Hope :-)

>I think he was referring to "The Mighty Hood Goes Down" where the Hood
>(a Fed CA) is abmushed by 3 or 4 ships (Romulan KRs, I think).


Hmm....a closer analogy would be the USS Hood ambushed by a Romulan King
Condor....



>In addition to your "Lone Gray Wolf" scenario (I hadn't thought of the
>Bismarck link before) there was "The Pleiades Turkey Shoot" where an
>unending stream of out of date (ie early war) Klingon fighters try and
>take out a Fed Carrier Battle Group and fail.


Yep - the Fed Admiral decides to risk it all on one battle. If he can kill
enough fighters, he can cripple the Klingons ability to stop him. If they
kill him the Feds lose the leverage to force a favourable ceasefire.

>I think that this was inspired by a WWII action in the Pacific.

The Great Marianus (sp?) Turkey Shoot, I believe.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:43:27 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <JLAROSEE@aol.com>
> Result- in six weeks I've sold three books. And those were to one guy wanting
> them as source books for another game. If I wasn't an old geezer Traveller
> myself, the game would now be in some back corner gathering dust.

Gee, whopping success, eh?  Get any orders from the TML when you offered the
member discount?  I know that several have mentioned not being able to get
it locally.  Speaking of which, is A2 in yet? ;-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:53:15 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Real world question

>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
>
>To survive the Van Allen Belts


To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:57:27 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

>>Trespassing
>That's not even a crime around here (UK) - it's a civil action.


Except in Areas Restricted Under The Official Secrets Act. (ie Interdicted
Worlds).

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:02:01 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

> space as you are suggesting cannot be done.  Rather, imagine
> that real space is a two-dimensional plane to those in it,


You see the world around you as a two-dimensional plane? #;-p

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:28:03 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re : Tech

>No, you don't. :-)
>
>Hydrogen *freezes* at something like 15-18 K. Helium I'd believe. 

Quite right. I misspoke myself.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:35:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Real world question

Given this is in alt.conspiracy, they're horrible, and no human could
survive going though them without more shielding that it is possible to
launch.

That's why all the NASA space stuff is done on huge sound stages in
England. You don't think it really took George Lucas this long to come
up with the money and ideas for the new Star Wars, do you?? Of course
not. He's been busy shooting Nasa's stuff for them, like the Space
shuttle run just this week!

The government HAS to do this,you see, maintain a conspiracy with
thousands and thousands of participants, because their Grey masters are
ordering them to do it.

<cue X-files theme>

Or maybe just 

<cue Looney Tunes theme> ;-)

Nick Bradbeer wrote:
> 
> >>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
> >
> >To survive the Van Allen Belts
> 
> To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
> 
> NB

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:41:20 +0100
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re Astrin APC

"William F. Hostman" wrote:
 
> Why Bother? The Astrin was originally an MT Design, IIRC, and it was
> converted to TNE for Striker II. [p 94, which is in appendix B.]
> 
> William F. Hostman

I don't have access to this book could someone forward the information
to me. The books are hard to find in the UK.

- -- 
Chris T
If I should fall to rise no more
As many comrades did before 
Then ask the fifes and drums to play
Over the hill and far away

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:09:05 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, you wrote:
>Mr. Miller has floated the idea around.  Sounded like he wants to publish
>combined editions, e.g. Adventures, Supplements, Double Adventure... putting
>all of the adventures into one book, all supplements into another, etc.  It
>would be a republication rather than an edition.  My vision (though it may
>be completely off base) is hardcover books with pretty dust jackets, tomes
>that would sit nicely on a shelf or desktop cubby.  Crazy, I know.  But
>every group needs a dreamer, right? ... Right? ... Hello?  :-D
>
I guess there's a distinction between what collectors would like and what would
work for players. Personally I'd like to see T5 published in LBB format so that
it can be built up gradually and at less risk to the publisher and lower entry
cost to the gamer. Also this would hopefully get away from there having to be a
T6, as opposed to Book 9 or Book 5, 2nd Edition.

The order and lines (Rule Books, Supplements, Adventures, etc) could be similar, and indeed the various CT
volumes might be updated for T5. I'd also like to see the better third party
stuff (FASA, Gamelords, Paranoia, DGP given a miracle) integrated into the
process, if rights allowed. Alien Modules I'd also like to see in a similar
format to CT, one alien per volume.

For the collector, bundles of black books could be sold in box sets with
additional goodies, as with CT.

To be honest, although I think some of the rules are better in MT and T4, there
was very little about the packaging of CT I disliked - maybe some of the
boardgames and in particular having to get Azhanti High Lightning to get better
close combat rules and Supplement 5 - nothing else*

With MT the packaging of the main game didn't really work: part of that was
trying to slice existing and new material into books the size of the referees
manual etc. Also once they had the books there was a reluctance to revise them
despite the number of bugs. The DGP stuff on the other hand worked like a
dream - but that was mostly new from the ground up - even when they combined
Grand Census/Grand Survey they cut very little.

* it's coming back to me now. Alien Realms. Atlas of the Imperium. Hmmm

Mark


- --
Mark Watson, markw@antares.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:05:58 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Real world question

>Or maybe just
><cue Looney Tunes theme> ;-)


lol.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:03:03 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re:Tech

>I just did some digging and I can't find the equation. But the
>essential point is that efficiency, source temp, and sink temp are
>*directly* related. The amount of energy you can produce with an XX
>percent efficient "engine" is *determined* by the difference between
>the input temp and the output temp.

The applicable equation is:

efficiency=W/Qhot= Qhot-Qcold/Qhot=1-(Qcold/Qhot)

for a heat engine carnot efficeincy=1-(Tcold/Thot)

With Qhot the source and Qcold the sink and W the work produced. This is a
maximum efficiency. Typically real world efficiencies are less than this,
usually no more than 38% or less. Maximum is around 60% or so, always
dependent on the difference between Thot and Tcold. The "game" is how much
you wiggle between those values: the efficiency and carnot efficiency.


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:22:39 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: languages

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

> visas. Anyhoo, one shift I had a someone from Brazil and someone from
> Angola...I had to translate their english accents to each other, as their
> nominal native tongue, Portugese, was mutually incomprehensible, and I
> didn't speak Portugese...

Oh, that sounds familiar.  I have sometimes had to translate for a
Mandarin speaker and a Cantonese speaker for the same reason.  They
couldn't understand each other in English and their Chinese languages
are indeed two totally separate languages.  Two native Portuguese
speakers, however ... wow.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:38:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Imperial Code of Law (Long)

> From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>

> Im setting up a legal system for my Traveller universe and one of the
> first things that Im doing is defining what the Imperium sees as legal
> and illegal. 

So you're starting with a criminal code for the Imperium.  That's
probably of interest to your PCs.  

I think, however, that you would be better served to take a broad look
at the interaction of law and society before trying to make a list of
all of the crimes.  What is the Imperial government's function in the
Imperium?  What is the function of Imperial law in an empire comprised
of member states with their own legal systems?  You should find some of
my earlier writing on this in the TML archives (which I don't have in
readable form! but I'll try to get it and post it to Steve Daniel's web
page) in probably 1995 and 1996.  

Bear in mind that the Imperium does not attempt to rule its member
worlds.  They have their own legal systems, which sometimes conflict
with those of other members.  The Imperium just rules the space between
systems and a few worlds that are under direct Imperial rule.  In
addition, some nobles rule entire worlds directly as fiefs.  

My view is that Imperial laws after Arbellatra's reign are as minimal as
they can be for a huge star-spanning empire.  The Imperium tries not to
get into the law enforcement business except for the things it
represents to its members that it will do:  deal with piracy, slavery,
and threats to the peace of the realm (espionage, insurrection,
treason).  

Another factor that you should consider in drafting this monumental work
is that the Imperium is 1100+ years old, and that that is laid over
10,000 years of Vilani legal history.  A lot of change and development
will have occurred in those time frames, so the legal system will be
extremely complex.  

- --Glenn

(one of the TML's contributing lawyers)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:54:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law 

> From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
> Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law 
> 
> As a matter of interest in the real world when a crime such as murder is
> committed on the high seas does the jurisdiction for prosecuting go to the
> nation the ship is registered with?

I'm not sure what maritime law provides, but in the Imperium, Imperial
admiralty law governs the conduct of persons aboard ship in jump space
when the ship is jumping to an Imperial world.  (Imperial treaties with
certain neighbors may provide differently.)  The ship's captain may
arrest a suspect and preserve evidence, and even hold a trial if
necessary (although normally the ship will be in port in less than a
week, so a trial is presumptively not necessary).  The prisoner is
entitled to be tried at the next starport by the Imperial authorities,
but may be transferred to a place with an Imperial judicial court or an
Imperial noble's court.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #896
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 897



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Relativistic Missiles
Re: Relativistic Missiles
Traveller Cardboard Heroes
Re: Relativistic Speeds
Transstellar chronosynchronization
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Transstellar chronosynchronization
Re:Missing digests
re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
RE: Imperial Code of Law
[BITS] Request from Rob Prior re: GT Metator
re: Imperial Code of Law
RE: Relativistic Speeds
Re:Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
[none]
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
[none]
Re GT and BG notes.
Re: Lasers
Re: Daylight Savings TIme
Re: American Units

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:58:39 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

> From: SciFiFan56@aol.com

> How many 
> of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials?

History of the Imperium Working Group (HIWG) has been working on making
a CD of all the CT materials.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:29:03 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Relativistic Missiles

Nick Bradbeer wrote:
>>Normally a ship entering jump will program so that it emerges with a
>>reasonable velocity and vector in its target system.  It could be possible
>>to program a jump so that the computer operated vessel emerges with a
>>relativistic velocity vectored towards a world. It would be very hard to
>>stop this.
>
>
>Actually, I've always wondered about this - whether your continued momentum
>is absolute or relative to the local gravity gradient. If it's relative to
>the gravity gradient then you're changing the total momentum of the universe
>(which would imply not) but if it's local you can bugger around with
>potential energy a lot, jumping to the outside of the gravity well, sliding
>down to build up speed and then jumping out and repeating the procedure to
>build up more. The only way I can see to circumvent this is if part of the
>jump fuel is to act as an energy sink to balance this out, but we're talking
>about a LOT of gravitational potential for a world like a gas giant, or a
>star.
>
>Any opinions, anyone?

Well, I'd suggest that, with an uncertainty in arrival times of 1 day
in 7 (or 14%), you are probably not going to hit a planet in this
manner.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:46:38 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Relativistic Missiles

>Well, I'd suggest that, with an uncertainty in arrival times of 1 day
>in 7 (or 14%), you are probably not going to hit a planet in this
>manner.


Well, ships can normally jump accurately enough to arrive on course for a
gas giant or world to skim fuel. I always played that the jump calculations
told you when you'd precipitate so you could aim to arrive at a mainworld,
or jump a fleet together. The time just varies from jump to jump depending
on local circumsances.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:51:38
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Traveller Cardboard Heroes

I've contacted Loren Wiseman about any chance of having them reprinted.
Here follows his answer (I asked his permission to post it to the list, and
he said that probably most of you already knew about this, but anyway...)

>X-Sender: lkw@mail.io.com
>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:44:14 -0600
>To: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
>From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Any chance for Traveller CBH?
>
>At 10:21 AM -0600 7/25/99, Paolo Marino wrote:
>>Sorry to have to contact you directly, but you have recently stated that
>>you have problems reading TML.
>>
>>My question is: Does SJG have any plans about (re)producing Traveller
>>Cardboard Heroes? I've seen that they have started reprinting the Fantasy
>>line, and I'd really like to have something similar for Traveller.
>>
>>So, any hope for it?
>
>We have discussed it, and we are looking into the matter, but nothing is on
>the schedule right now. It is not totally out of the question, but don't
>hold your breath until I say to.  : )
>
>
>
>Loren Wiseman
>     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
>     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
>     SJ Games
>     LKW@IO.COM
>     (512) 447-7866 VOX
>     (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
>
>

__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred) | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:57:51 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Relativistic Speeds

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Something that may help is this. If you graph v vs tau using units of c
> for v, you get a circle of radius one centered on the origin.

Yes!  This is what I was looking for.  Your answers to my questions have
been immensely helpful.

> You just flunked basic physics. It takes *no* fuel to maintain *any*
> velocity. As an example *we* are moving at 90% of c with respect to
> many distant galaxies.

Duh.  Duh!  I'm so stupid!  I was talking about the massive fuel
requirements involved, when I was thinking that since a ship at 98%c would
have a greater mass (~5x) than it does at rest, there would be a greater
requirement for energy (fuel) to accelerate it to that velocity.  I don't
know where I got from there to fuel requirements for a non-accelerating ship
(!?), which is how I worded it.  Sorry.

> It takes fuel to *change* velocity. That's is change speed *or* change
> direction. Both are covered by "acceleration".

Thank you again for your time in answering my 'amateur night at the physics
club' questions.  I really appreciate it.


- -----------------------------
Hypercleats / ICQ: 8139313
Geek Credentials: tc++ !tm- !tn- ?t4< ?tg< to+ ru+(@) ge+ 3i+ c+(-) jt au+
ls++ pi+ ta@ he(+) hi+ zh+ vi+ da++

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:31:40 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Transstellar chronosynchronization

ISTR what seems to be a simple solution to the problem of
synchronizing the Imperial clock and calendar across the
Imperium.  If I'm wrong, correct me, but...

Isn't there some sort of absolute relationship between the
absolute magnitude of certain variable stars and the period of
their variation?  Cepheid variables (I think)?  By identifying a
number of such stars, according to their spectra and periods, and
any easily calculable changes in either over time, such that at
least three would be visible from anywhere in the Imperium, one
should be able to unambiguously set a clock and calendar - and
reset them on coming out of jump. Those same easily identifiable
variable stars also provide "anchor" points for navigational
reconing, making it possible to know where one is after a
misjump.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:36:09 EDT
From: RASFranzen@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

Dear Glenn et al.,
I find the idea, that imperial laws should be as minimal as they could 
misleading. Even if that was the political aim of the Imperium, we should 
still expect a very complicated legal system comprising of:

1) Some kind of international/intercultural law in the form of treaties with 
other interstellar entities ( Zhodani, Solomani, Kkree, Hiver, Vargr States 
etc)

2) Constitutional law dealing with the internal build up of the Imperium ( 
Moot etc) and its relations to member entities. These relations to member 
entities could be quite complicated actually due to privileges granted, 
contractual agreement at the time of incorporation into the Imperium etc.

3) Penal Law which would have to be quite complicated, as it would have to 
deal with all crimes and misdemeanors perpetrated outside the legal spheres 
of member worlds, i. e. in jumpspace, in unsettled systems, on imperial 
ships, bases, reservations etc.
I should guess that most conceivable crimes could be perpetrates in these 
environments with a few exceptions like evading a purely local tax etc,
I should also think, that crimes against the Imperium and its forces are 
punishable in imperial courts.

4) Administrative and as part of that tax and customs&excise law, which would 
deal with those cases where citizens enter into direct contact with the 
imperium, be it as space travellers, imperial employees or homeownwers living 
next to some imperial base.

5) Commercial law dealing with trade between different jurisdictions.

So to create a codex of imperial law might be a bit much for a mere mortal.
What could be done might be ( as of main interest to players):

1) To collect some more important basics of constutional law

2) Deal with criminal law and procedure

( I should guess that imperial penal procedure might not include the right to 
trial by jury as that would be impractical . On spaceships and in the 
military there might even be trials without recourse to a trained judge)

3) Make trade a little more interesting by having the players deal with the 
revenue service or customs

best wishes
Soenke Franzen ( gamer and tax lawyer ;->)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:59:09 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:48:08 -0400 (EDT), "Sword Worlder"
<swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:

>Mr. Miller has floated the idea around.  Sounded like he wants to publish
>combined editions, e.g. Adventures, Supplements, Double Adventure... putting
>all of the adventures into one book, all supplements into another, etc.  It
>would be a republication rather than an edition.  My vision (though it may
>be completely off base) is hardcover books with pretty dust jackets, tomes
>that would sit nicely on a shelf or desktop cubby.  Crazy, I know.  But
>every group needs a dreamer, right? ... Right? ... Hello?  :-D

Huh?... Wha?...  Eeww, where did this drool on my keyboard come
from?  :)

_If_ this happens, I _will_ be spending money.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:15:57 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Transstellar chronosynchronization

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> 
> ISTR what seems to be a simple solution to the problem of
> synchronizing the Imperial clock and calendar across the
> Imperium.  If I'm wrong, correct me, but...
> 
> Isn't there some sort of absolute relationship between the
> absolute magnitude of certain variable stars and the period of
> their variation?  Cepheid variables (I think)?  By identifying a
> number of such stars, according to their spectra and periods, and
> any easily calculable changes in either over time, such that at
> least three would be visible from anywhere in the Imperium, one
> should be able to unambiguously set a clock and calendar - and
> reset them on coming out of jump. Those same easily identifiable
> variable stars also provide "anchor" points for navigational
> reconing, making it possible to know where one is after a
> misjump.

In fact, I seem to remember reading somewhere in canon that interstellar
location is based on using these stars as markers.

Time synchronization could be relatively easily carried out with the
placement of radio transmitters about the Imperium.

All you would need is a tuned reciever to the Imperial WWV signal, 
_when_ you are would be a matter of catching what the 'current' time is
on the radio channel and backcalculating, since you know where you are
in relation to Capital. Note, this would take until the 400's or so to
have propagated a signal throughout the Imperium...about the same time
the X-boat system was established, which would require rather rigorous
and repeatable time-stamping. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:02:55 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Missing digests

>I've been missing digests. How do I get one from the archive?
>Does MPGN have an archive web page?

Send a message to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with "Help" in the message
body. Then you will find out how you can get lots of different info (including
old digests).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:23:31 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

>GTL10 Thruster - 200 tons thrust - 20,000 kW - 10 sTons - 400 cf 
>(excluding any access space)

Note that GT uses vectored thrust so that craft can manouver and hover. This
increases thrusters mass, cost and volume by 50% (Vehicles P41 Para 3). So for
the fighter example you would need to increase the above figures.

As you point out standard thruster modules that were non-vectored would cost
almost the same for 50% more thrust (the power slice element would still
increase cost and mass by 50% though this is not a large part of the cost).

e.g. GTL10 Non-vectored Thruster module: 60 sTons thrust, MCr 0.18, Mass 3.6
sTons.

For craft not intended for planetary landings I guess you could just have one
vectored thrust module and the rest could be non-vectored.

For craft intended for planetary landings I would install CG for lift and again
have only one vectored thrust module and the rest non-vectored. Then you come
out way ahead.

Contragrav is so cheap you wouldn't even notice it on a starship at around
30.5KCr for 1000 sTons lift and negligible volume (28.2cf). 

Of course doing this to any commercial ships would break some elements of GT
(e.g. Far Trader). :(

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:40:48 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law

>Of course, ship registration comes into all this.  The Solomani would tend
>to get a bit sarcastic about the application of Imperial law on board their
>vessels, and so would the Zhodani, and so on.  Non-Imperial registered
>ships would then be considered to be part of their state of origin's
>territory, and thus not subject to Imperial law.  This is probably less
>true for some non-Imperial states than others.  The IN probably doesn't
>recognise certain Vargr states when it is convenient for them not to, for
>example.

This presupposes a concept equivalent to the maritime or international law
concept of freedom of navigation. In other words in international waters
nations on Earth are to allow unimpeded passage of vessels flying foreign
flags. This is of course only a general rule. A military or Coast Guard
vessel can always search a vessel registered in their own country or with
the permission of the country the ship is registered in. Hence the
proliferation of registries in countries not especially cooperative.

I don't believe that the Imperium has this policy. As a matter of fact I
think that it implicitly does not.

"The Imperium rules the space between worlds and leaves the dirt to the
worlds itself."

I take this to mean that in Imperial star systems the Imperium rules. Except
for diplomatic missions I see the Imperium as attempting to exercise
authority over all ships within their control zone.  This is a concept more
in line with the territorial jurisdiction practiced by nations on land
rather than at sea.

Would the Solmani or the Zhodani like this? Probably not. But I would expect
them to follow the same code. In an uncontested star system I expect that
the Imperium would claim jurisdiction from the inner edge of the Oort cloud
to the star itself.  Of course claiming jurisdiction and being able to
enforce it are two different things. I would expect that most enforcement
would be centered within the 100 diameter radius of the major world and
possibly any gas giants.  Other inhabited areas, provided they are not
Imperial stations are probably patrolled by either the reserve fleet or a
local organization.  This could be anything from the local noble's Huscarles
to a group of Star Rangers.

In any case I would expect them to have the authority to board any
spacecraft on legitimate excuse and be able to hold it to Imperial statues.
This said I would not expect to find many Zhodani vessels in Imperial space.
The Consulate would not want them boarded and the local populous wouldn't
want telepaths any where near them.  I wouldn't expect Imperial vessels to
have the same problem, as long as they don't have psi shielding. I also
wouldn't expect there to be a difficulty with this policy from other
interstellar governments, as long as they have the same rights to hold
Imperial vessels to the same standard.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:24:13 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Request from Rob Prior re: GT Metator

Rob Prior, writer of some of the best MacOS software for Traveller (demos
available from BITS website http://www.bits.org.uk/) is working up a new
version of Metator (his extended system generator which some of the TML's
old hands may remember) which will encompass First In's design sequence.
This version should work on PCs. He has asked me to pass this on:

- ------------------

I'm beginning to work on GT Metator, the GURPS software to detail systems.
Being a novice PC programmer, I'd really appreciate it if someone familiar
with Borland Delphi (preferably version 2, which is what I have) could be
available as a resource.

It would also be nice if the TML could help with deciding on a user
interface. So far I'm leaning towards a single window, tabbed to move
between different views of the data. (I'm not firm on this, it's just that I
can't handle multiple windows yet.)

Rob

- --------------

If anyone can help, please can you email me at the cybergoths address and I
will put you in touch with Rob,

Thanks,

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:08:26 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: re: Imperial Code of Law

>Of course, it may be prosecuted by your victim's brother-in-law, his
>drinking buddies from the bar, and a dozen passers-by who think you
>really, *really* shouldn't have shot their old buddy whats-his-name.

I guess low-life offworld (PC) scum are fair game then. :-)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:20:27 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Relativistic Speeds

>Canon maintains that several worlds inhabited by humaniti are isolated (or
>were), because the population arrived there via sub-light 'generation
>ships,' or the like....
>....  And if a generation ship were
>called for, to go out and create a colony at a distant star system, then it
>is already a 'one-off' affair (meaning that the ship's crew will not be
>intending on meeting the people they left on their world of origin ever
>again.)  They are striking out new, completely on their own in the pre-jump
>universe.

>It follows, therefore, that they would likewise not be concerned about the
>effect of time dilation at relativistic velocity.  A generation colony ship
>(in the pre-jump future) need not take a hundred or a thousand years to
>creep to their new home, at least not from the point of view of the ship's
>occupants.  If, after a long period of slingshots and acceleration and
>generally building up speed, the ship's velocity nears c, then their
>destination could be realized well within their lifetime (if not the
>lifetimes of those back on their original homeworld).

I believe that Poul Andersen wrote this very story. I believe that it was
called Tau Zero. In relativity physics, the "tau factor" is the inverse
logarithm of the Lorenz-Fitzgerald contraction as an observer accelerates
towards the  speed of light; the tau factor starts at zero at rest, and
becomes infinity at light speed. (Definition courtesy of Rob Tou's Tau Zero
Page: http://www.tauzero.com/Rob_Tow/index.html )

In the story the crew uses a Bassard (sp?) ramjet to continuously accelerate
their ship. They end up accelerating so much that they allow the whole
universe to age to its end around them. Excellent story, and not an FTL
drive anywhere.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:36:04 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re:Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

>I can speak with some knowledge on this- I own/operate a FLGS. I have GT
>front and center on display and talk it up as THE sci-fi game to play.
>Result- in six weeks I've sold three books. And those were to one guy
wanting
>them as source books for another game.

Luckily my FLGS seems to sell GURPS stuff at a good pace. I guess he get
relatively small numbers or something, because they seem to go fast. He's
got a fair number of used/out of print non-Traveller GURPS items also, as
well as the occasional TNE book.

Unfortunately this seems to be a AD&D summer as many of the games being
played on site this summer are in this system. Traveller isn't the usual
game there either, but up until May Alternity and Rifts seemed to be the
systems of choice, and a FUDGE cross-time, cross-dimensional hodge-podge.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:39:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>You just flunked basic phsyics. It takes *no* fuel to maintain *any*
>velocity. As an example *we* are moving at 90% of c with respect to
>many distant galaxies.

Actually, Leonard, don't forget that the "*no* fuel" assumes *no* friction,
which, at velocities over 0.1C, won't actually be true ... Space is not a
true vacum. The decellerative effects will be based upon speed (relative to
medium), density of medium, mass, frontal area, and non-movement energy of
medium. At 0.1 C or greater, in addition to time dilation, you also have
significant radiation effects from particulate impacts upon the leading
surface, and these impacts are a decellerative effect. Trivial, but
present. At 0.5C+, they become severely erosive, rather than simply
decelerative and radiation inducing.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:39:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

>Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
>
>Mr. Miller has floated the idea around.  Sounded like he wants to publish
>combined editions, e.g. Adventures, Supplements, Double Adventure... putting
>all of the adventures into one book, all supplements into another, etc.  It
>would be a republication rather than an edition.  My vision (though it may
>be completely off base) is hardcover books with pretty dust jackets, tomes
>that would sit nicely on a shelf or desktop cubby.  Crazy, I know.  But
>every group needs a dreamer, right? ... Right? ... Hello?  :-D
>
I wouldn't mind seing them re-laid-out for 8.5x11 hardcovers... I also
would hope he'd do the GDW MT stuff in another hardcover... with the
erratta worked in. I have most of the CT materials, but run/play a variant
MT, due to better rules-self-consistency. CT/MT are fairly close. Hell, you
can use HG designs in MT... you just need to reformat the data....

I know that if MT were corrected, consolidated, and re-printed, it ouwld
sell at least 10 copies in anchorage. More if it didn't include the
rebellion. Even at the $40 the harcover could pull at Bosco's...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:39:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>Nick Bradbeer writes:
>>Actually, I've always wondered about this - whether your continued
>>momentum is absolute or relative to the local gravity gradient.
><snipped>
>>Any opinions, anyone?
[snip]
>	IMTU, the ship maintains momentum relative to the local
>	gravity well. This is simply for convenience, if any
>	physical objections are raised I will wave my hands with
>	abandon.
>Peez

IMTU, the ship retains it's vector relative to the TWO most significant
gravity-producing objects near it when it jumps, and realigns them to fit
the two most significant at jump exit.


William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:11:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re GT and BG notes.

>	Not to start flame wars, but has anyone compared the background (not
>rules!!) between GT and CT or MT or TNE or T4?

GT is subtly different from CT AND MT in many ways, especially in the
supplements. GT is built upon the assumption that the late 3I DIDN'T break
up into the rebellion. That Strephon was an effective emperor. And upon
many of the personal preferences of the authors in interpreting the 3I
setting. IMHO. CT didn't present a coherent picture, but a framework to
hang "your own" 3I on.  MT  created a standard "3I" setting, but still left
room for hanging things off of. TNE was really a continuation of MT and
Hard Times, background-wise, in  a direction many don't agree with.

For example, take Imperial Warrants. In CT, there is an entry on them in
Supplement 8: Library Data A-M. In MT, not only is there the same entry,
but we find out that Norris got one that was either non-personalized yet,
or was "Bearer" issued.

GT first printing also made changes to TAS membership, passage costs, cargo
costs, nature of the Army, navy and marines (at least by the way the
templates were written).

Much of CT's background material was really by interpretation fo the tables
in the rules; likewise so did MT. TNE often contradictedd or failed to have
congruency with it's own tables. T4 was light on Background in the
rulebooks, just like CT, but unlike CT, didn't leave much room for
fidgeting with other backgrounds IMHO.... and often, T4 contradicted CT or
MT materials.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:36:04 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Lasers

>>The third reason is that the laser beam is focussed; so, while it narrows
down
>>to
>>a 1-cm diameter when it hits the target, it might be tens of cm or even more
>>than
>>a meter at launch - so the launch mirror is much bigger, and hence has a
lower
>>energy density hitting it.
>>

>Excuse me, but that makes no sense. The limitations of focussing at the
>ranges used basically prevent this from happening... the best you get is a
>nealy cylindrical cone, and in almost all cases, the narrow end is at the
>weapon. Anything else results in a fixed focus weapon, useful only at a
>given set of ranges.

It's not that hard to make a converging (focussed) laser beam, even at long
ranges - the spot can never get smaller than the diffraction criterion
(wavelength*range/launch diameter), of course. You have to refocus for targets
at different ranges, but that's not too hard to design into the system (well,
designing something that refocuses from 1km to 100,000km is challenging, but
not impossible.)

The laser we're going to use in my Actual Job to make an artificial guide
star for astronomical adaptive optics is focused (rather than collimated) onto
the
sodium layer (100 km up.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 00:04:13 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings TIme

On 07/23/99 at 04:15 PM,  scharlto@ifsna.com said:

>Personally, I am glad we do not have Daylight Savings in Arizona.  I
>have difficulty understanding its usefulness in the southern portions
>of the US (I can understand it in the noerthern climes, where the
>days are much longer in summer and shorter in winter).

I don't see why we have Standard Time. I'd be perfectly happy to stay on
Daylight Savings Time the entire year. ;-p

Okay Ob Trav, how many of you enforce time zones in your games?  I know Carlos
does, and I do...generally, but what about the rest of you?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 00:15:41 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: American Units

On 07/23/99 at 01:03 PM,  Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> said:

>Anyway, there was never any change, and no one has any problem
>picking up a 2 liter bottle of soda, but wait, a 2 liter bottle of
>milk? I have to  pull out my conversion tables!

I look at it as "2 liters is about half gallon" and just get on with
life.  I'm not going to argue with all you metricophiles, the metric
system is easy to use, but isn't especially intuitive for
*me*...YMMV.  Oh and that's your *mileage* may vary, not your meters
may vary.  Hee!  Hee!

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #897
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 898



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Daylight Savings TIme 
Re: Ship Designations: A request
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
RE: Imperial Code of Law
RE: The Fighter Debate...
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Traveller Cardboard Heroes
Republishing CT materials
[none]
Re: Real world question
Re: Real world question
Re: Republishing CT materials
RE: Relativistic Speeds
Republishing
Re: Republishing CT materials 
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
Re: Republishing
Re: Real world question 
Re: Republishing
Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller
re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)
Traveller Navigator Software
Where to buy traveller (was re: Republishing CT materials)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:44:44 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

>>>I'll freely admit this is an Uber-Gearhead nit, but the question is
>>>raises for me is *how* do you map between 2D and 3D spaces? It's not
>>>possible ...
>>
>>Actually Cantor proved that all N-dimensional spaces
>>(for N > 0) have the same cardinality. This means there is a
>one-to-one
>>mapping between points in 2D and 3D.

[ big snip]

>I'm sorry, I'm just not following this ... could you rephrase this a
>bit? I'm not making any sense out of it at all.

Georg Cantor was a 19th century german mathematician who proved that there
are just as many points in a line as there are in a 2-dimensional space as
there are in 3D space, and so on. Actually, he proved a bigger mathematical
statement of which this is a mere detail.

You can uniquely and reversibly associate every point in any N-dimensional
space with every point in an M-dimensional space, for any N, M > 0. It
seems impossible, but there is just as much room on an infinite line as
there is in an infinite N-dimensional space.

Your question was how to map points in 3D space to a 2D space. There are
any number of ways of doing this, but here's one easy to visualize:

Consider  a 1 unit square and a 1 unit cube. The unit can be whatever you
want, let's say the size of the universe. Every point in the 3D space will
be given by 3 real numbers, X, Y and Z, all less than one.  Every point in
the square will have a position uniquely given by 2 real numbers, X' and
Y', less than one. We want a way to uniquely and reversibly associate every
triad (X, Y, Z) with a pair (X', Y').

Every real number can be considered an infinite sum of polynomials. For
example, 1/9 = (1 * 10^-1) + (1 * 10^-2) + (1 * 10^-3) + .... This means
our number X can be represented as:

	X = (i1 * 10^-1) + (i2 * 10^-2) + (i3 * 10^-3) + ...

Where i1, i2, and so are integers uniquely specifying X. In fact, that's
how our normal decimal system works. Except we just use the digits and
leave out the "* 10^whatever", the position specifies the exponent. Let's
do that for the 3 numbers in our 3D space:

	X = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
	Y = j1 j2 j3 j4 ...
	Z = k1 k2 k3 4k ...

The "i"s, "j"s, and "k"s are the appropriate digits of each coordinate in
the decimal expansion of the 3D position. So for the point (0.31423,
0.0456, 0.6959), i1 = 3, i2 = 1, j2 = 4, k3 = 5, and so on.

Let's look at the following set of pairs, X' and Y' with the following
decimal expansion, using the same "i"s, "j"s, and "k"s as before:

	X' = i1 i2 i3 i4 ...
	Y' = j1 k1 j2 k2 j3 k3 ...

Every digit specifying a point in the 3D space has a corresponding digit in
this new 2D space, with no gaps or overlap, and vice versa. For example,
the 3D point we gave before has the 2D mapping (0.31423, 0.06495569).

However, 2D and 3D space are not topologically equivalent. This means that
distances and directions are not preserved by the mapping. For example,
using the sample mapping above the point (0, 0.29) is closer to  (0, 0)
than (0, 0.44) in 2D space, but farther in 3D. A square (or whatever) in 2D
space could map to a disconnected cloud of points in 3D space.

So what has this got to do with Traveller? Back in the "space is 2D" thread
I proposed that the sector maps we all know and love are maps of jump
space, and jump space *really is* 2D. This would explain the problems with
3D coordinates, boundaries, mains, stellar densities, and all the other
complaints. Each point in jump space corresponds to a single point in
"real" 3D space and when you jump you jump to the corresponding point.

Leonard Erickson pointed out a flaw in this, however. There is plenty of
canon evidence that distances and directions in 3D space *really do*
correspond to those shown in the sector maps. I considered trying to come
up with a mapping that would preserve distances and directions somewhat,
but it proved difficult and would be totally contrived anyway. Normal space
maps in Mayday and Brilliant Lances are 2D also, so it's a lost cause.

Why does any of this matter? The geometric properties of 2D and 3D space
really are different, and the use of 2D maps for outer space is, IMHO, the
biggest departure from "hard science" in Traveller.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:43:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings TIme 

> On 07/23/99 at 04:15 PM,  scharlto@ifsna.com said:
> 
> >Personally, I am glad we do not have Daylight Savings in Arizona.  I
> >have difficulty understanding its usefulness in the southern portions
> >of the US (I can understand it in the noerthern climes, where the
> >days are much longer in summer and shorter in winter).
> 
> I don't see why we have Standard Time. I'd be perfectly happy to stay on Daylight Savings Time the entire year. ;-p
> 
> Okay Ob Trav, how many of you enforce time zones in your games?  I know Carlos does, and I do...generally, but what about the rest of you?

I do, but you guys are running under Ambercrombie Standard Time so you didn't
notice.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 00:52:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Ship Designations: A request

On 07/23/99 at 06:34 PM,  igor@truserve.com said:

>Since I am not up on naval information, I was wondering if someone
>could clairify  something for me -

>I'm in the process of designing some ships for my campaign, and I'm
>striving to  be "realistic" - avoiding the whole "The Kinunir is a
>cruiser?" debacle...

>What are the definitions, either tonnage or mission, for the
>following:
>  Destroyer
>  Frigate
>  Escort
>  Patrol Boat

>I have a 2,400 displacement ton ship, armed with a PA bay, Missile
>Bay, 3 laser  turrets, and a sand turret. It is fast when compared to
>its opponents (3G - which is  reasonably fast for a low-tech
>campaign) and has Jump-3 and heavy armor.

>What possible missions/description would such a class support?

My descriptions might not match anyone elses, but from smallest to
largest...

Missile/Gun Boats - a very small jump or non-jump capable craft
designed to operate in squadrons against civilian craft and small
warships, and as screens and intellegence gathering assets for
Battle Groups and Fleets.

Patrol Boat - a Missle/Gun Boat assigned to patrol a system
providing customs, policeing, and intellegence gathering functions
(100 to 400 dtons)

Destroyer - a small jump capable warship designed to operate in
squadrons in support of fleet actions (1 to 3 kdtons)

Frigate - a small warship designed for long-term independent
actions involving explorations, diplomatic missions, and commerce
raiding (2 to 6 kdtons)

Escort - a small warship designed to provide support and protection
for non-warships travelling in convoy (2 to 6 kdtons)

Cruiser - a capital warship designed for both long-term independent
actions and as the major asset in frontier squadrons (6 to 20
kdtons)

BattleCruiser - a capital warship designed with cruiser armor and
speed, but battleship class weapon systems, intended for deep
penetration raids in hostile sectors (15 to 30 kdtons)

Battleship - a Ship of the Line designed to operate within a
squadron of similar ships in major fleet engagements (30 to 60
kdton)

Dreadnaught - a large Ship of the Line (60 to 100 kdtons)

Superdreadnaught - the largest Ships of the Line (over 100 kdtons)

...As for your example, if it is designed to operate independently
for long periods (wilderness refueling, extended life support), I'd
call it a small Frigate, if it needs to travel with support ships
(limited life support, less provision for wilderness refueling,
and/or more reliance on its missiles than its beam weapons), I'd
call it a Destroyer or Escort.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:47:30 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

> From: RASFranzen@aol.com

> I find the idea, that imperial laws should be as minimal as they could 
> misleading. Even if that was the political aim of the Imperium, we should 
> still expect a very complicated legal system comprising of:

I think we're in substantial agreement, but you think I'm being
misleading.  I wrote:

> My view is that Imperial laws after Arbellatra's reign are as minimal as
> they can be for a huge star-spanning empire.  The Imperium tries not to [deletion] 
> Another factor that you should consider in drafting this monumental work
> is that the Imperium is 1100+ years old, and that that is laid over
> 10,000 years of Vilani legal history.  A lot of change and development
> will have occurred in those time frames, so the legal system will be
> extremely complex.  

I don't have any doubt that the Imperial legal system will be incredibly
complex.  All of the issues that you mentioned are part of that
complexity.  Imperial lawmakers (of which the Emperor is the only one
with final authority), faced with the intrinsic complexity of an 11,000
world empire with over 10,000 years of history, would try to keep legal
matters as simple as they could.  That's still not be very simple.  

One way of keeping it simple is to allow local worlds to do what they
want.  That simplifies a lot of administrative headache.  Another is to
give the nobles a lot of latitude.  That also makes it easier for the
central government.  

I don't know how the Zhodani, Hivers, and K'kree manage the uniformity
that we understand that they have.  The Vargr and Aslan lean the other
way, toward decentralization.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:52:12 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Imperial Code of Law

> From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>

> I take this to mean that in Imperial star systems the Imperium rules.
> Except for diplomatic missions I see the Imperium as attempting to exercise
> authority over all ships within their control zone.  This is a concept more
> in line with the territorial jurisdiction practiced by nations on land
> rather than at sea.

So the SDBs and colonial fleet are Imperial auxiliaries, which the
member state may use for adventures or for its own defense, until the
Imperium calls them up for a real war. I don't have a problem with
that.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:43:04 -0700
From: "moran" <silente@gte.net>
Subject: RE: The Fighter Debate...

> 
>   IIRC, sf-consim has fighters (or at least carriers vs battlewagons) in
> its FAQ after various repetitions of the debate :)
> 
Is there a URL?

Jason
silente@gte.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:46:43 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Sword Worlder <swordworlder@clinic.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller


> Mr. Miller has floated the idea around.  Sounded like he wants to publish
> combined editions, e.g. Adventures, Supplements, Double Adventure... putting
> all of the adventures into one book, all supplements into another, etc. It
> would be a republication rather than an edition.  My vision (though it may
> be completely off base) is hardcover books with pretty dust jackets, tomes
> that would sit nicely on a shelf or desktop cubby.  Crazy, I know.  But
> every group needs a dreamer, right? ... Right? ... Hello?  :-D
>

That I would definitely buy!!

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:47:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller Cardboard Heroes

>From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
>Subject: Traveller Cardboard Heroes
...
>>We have discussed it, and we are looking into the matter, but nothing is on
>>the schedule right now. It is not totally out of the question, but don't
>>hold your breath until I say to.  : )

  Gee, if they just straight re-print them we can forget the debates about
a lot of the uniforms in G:T. Hmm, it will also whack the supposed value of 
all the spares I found in my AHL box... :>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:26:51 EDT
From: tasegeal@juno.com
Subject: Republishing CT materials

Hi gang,

New to the list, first post, been lurking for a day or two.

I'd be most interested in a CD of the old materials for the reasons
Steve Hudson stated in #896.  I remember looking at ALL of those
LLBs, (or FASA's  LTBs, or Paranoid's LBsOADC (Little Books Of All
Different Colors)) in the Games Workshop store just outside of
London back in '83.  While I have most of them, I kick myself now
for the stuff I didn't get then!

Anybody remember something called the "Splat Gun" ?

Where's the best place to track down a copy of the T4 FF&S and Starships?

MikeJ
"Pie, Coconut Cream     Penetration: 2     Damage: 3D"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:57:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>>Personally, I am glad we do not have Daylight Savings in Arizona.  I
>>have difficulty understanding its usefulness in the southern portions
>>of the US (I can understand it in the noerthern climes, where the
>>days are much longer in summer and shorter in winter).
>
>I don't see why we have Standard Time. I'd be perfectly happy to stay on
>Daylight Savings Time the entire year. ;-p
>

Living in a state where we're all forced onto what used to be known as
"Yukon Standard Time" or "Yukon Daylight Time", I can attest to the
advantages of solar time being an hour off of "official time"... The little
daylight there is in the winter is during the lunch hour, and just before.
Alaska used to have 4 time zones, now we're on a single one. Good for
buisiness (no more "5PM conference call" being  joined at any point from
3-7pm...), and it makes little difference at all during the summer. During
the winter, however, all the daylight is fading at the end of lunch. Go to
shool in the dark, get home in the dark... it's even harder when working an
office job... to work in darkness, work through the tiny period of light,
go home in the darkness. Fortunately, Anchorage gets a good 30 minutes of
twighlight during the winter....

>Okay Ob Trav, how many of you enforce time zones in your games?  I know
>Carlos does, and I do...generally, but what about the rest of you?
>
>Eris

As for my players, most are very aware of time differences, and failing to
use them, even in fantasy games, gets me into trouble. In traveller, I tend
to ignore them, since most of my PC groups don't cross enough terain to
bother with them. I use them much like Xen, as an occasional pain in the
arse.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:35:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
>>
>>To survive the Van Allen Belts

>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?

These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:52:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Real world question

Howdy!

> At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
> >>
> >>To survive the Van Allen Belts
> 
> >To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
> 
> These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
> brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry

On the rec.aviation newsgroups, I've been maintaining that it was Vilani
operatives testing a new missile system from a secret US Navy submarine...

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:02:34 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Republishing CT materials

>Where's the best place to track down a copy of the T4 FF&S and
>Starships?


I've got a copy of T4 Starships for sale ...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:09:08 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Relativistic Speeds

Ships using thruster plates do not have a huge fuel requirement, they just
have another power plant to operate the plate. The fuel consumed by this is
insignificant. These ships could get to relativistic velocities relatively
easily, though why bother unless the civilisation concerned failed to
develop jump drive. Or the species have a problem with jump space.
I read somewhere that some psionics have a real problem with jump space,
cant remember where I read this though.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:56:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Republishing

> From: SciFiFan56@aol.com

> How many
> of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials?

I would like this, but I have to agree with another poster that
republishing the MT rules sans errors and "background free" would be an
even better idea!  I've always thought the big stumbling point for the
whole Traveller franchise was the mis-handling of MT.  It would be nice to
do it right. 

As for the HIWG CD, that sounds like a great resource for any Traveller
version.  Any ideas when it will be available?  It seems I've been hearing
about it for quite some time...

Charles C.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:37:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Republishing CT materials 

> Anybody remember something called the "Splat Gun" ?

Wasn't that the Aslani TL10 gun that openned up battle dress like a tin can?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:50:44 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

>> How many 
>> of you would support a republishing of the Classic Traveller Materials?
>
>History of the Imperium Working Group (HIWG) has been working on making
>a CD of all the CT materials.

And at such time that the CD becomes available, I definitely want one.
But a republishing of the original CT materials in book form would also
be of interest to me. Someone suggested republishing them in hardcover
format, with several LBBs in one volume. I have a hardcover called "The
Traveller Book", published in 1982 -- that and the Solomani Rim LBB
are the only CT material I have.

Can anyone tell me which LBBs are included in The Traveller Book?
(tia)

- -- g


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:57:28 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Republishing

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
> As for the HIWG CD, that sounds like a great resource for any Traveller
> version.  Any ideas when it will be available?  It seems I've been hearing
> about it for quite some time...

Two different animals, here... The History of the Imperium Working Group
(HIWG) published a lot of material during it's time and Bryan Borich made a
CD of their archives.  It came out last year.

The Traveller CD project is a different beast, still in the middle stages
and far from complete.  The project involves many people scanning, OCRing,
error-checking, checking, checking and checking again.  The intent is to
have a SEARCHABLE copy of all of the GDW Traveller material.  I know that
Bryan wanted to include the other published approved materials, but he has
not been able to get permission from several of them, most notably the DGP
owner.  Estimated publishing date?  Well, if he can keep getting the help he
needs for the process, maybe by the end of 2000?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:59:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question 

> At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
> >>
> >>To survive the Van Allen Belts
> 
> >To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
> 
> These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
> brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.

No doubt to keep him from interfering with Hillary's attempt to shanghai the
New York directorate in her Senate bid.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:09:33 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Republishing

Sword Worlder wrote:
> 
> The Traveller CD project is a different beast, still in the middle stages
> and far from complete.  The project involves many people scanning, OCRing,
> error-checking, checking, checking and checking again.  The intent is to
> have a SEARCHABLE copy of all of the GDW Traveller material.  I know that
> Bryan wanted to include the other published approved materials, but he has
> not been able to get permission from several of them, most notably the DGP
> owner.  Estimated publishing date?  Well, if he can keep getting the help he
> needs for the process, maybe by the end of 2000?

Well, if this Bryan person wants the MT rules sent to him, AND if he gets
permission from Marc for me to do so, I'd be happy to send him what I have.
Basically, I have Word versions of all of the MT rules, with errata fixes done.

However, I won't send him anything without permission from Marc.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:09:22 -0400
From: "Sword Worlder" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Discussion: Republish Classic Traveller

- ----- Original Message -----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> Can anyone tell me which LBBs are included in The Traveller Book?

Well, there's 1, 2, 3, half of Double Adventure 1, part of Supplements 1 and
2, a bit of Supplements 8 and 11, some of the Book 0 info... rather a
mish-mash with a bit of new info, too.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:07:46 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: re: GT and Short vs Long Term Access (and super-duper thruster modules)

> >GTL10 Thruster - 200 tons thrust - 20,000 kW - 10 sTons - 400 cf 
> >(excluding any access space)
> 
> Note that GT uses vectored thrust so that craft can manouver and hover.
> This increases thrusters mass, cost and volume by 50% (Vehicles P41 Para
> 3). So for the fighter example you would need to increase the above
> figures.

That's where the extra Mass/Volume/Cost comes from in the GT 
modules come from!!!!! Thanks.  You have cleared up a GCE for 
me!
 
Time to get back to work, I see.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:42:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller Navigator Software

Hi all.  Just perusing an old Pyramid mag that SJ Games put up on their
website and came across a review of a program called Traveller Navigator.
Apparently it helps one keep track of maps, times and so on.  Anyone heard
of this?  Anyone used it?  What are your opinions?  Is it still available
(the review mentions that it's for Win 3.1, so its a few years old at this
point, but I'm still on a Win 3.1 machine, so...).

Thanks,
Charles.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:41:33 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Where to buy traveller (was re: Republishing CT materials)

Try looking at:
www.downport.com
www.titangames.com
www.ebay.com

Just to name a few...

Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+(++) !tn t4 ru+ ge>+ !3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls(+) pi+ ta he+(++)   


- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <tasegeal@juno.com>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 12:26 AM
Subject: Republishing CT materials


> Hi gang,
> 
> New to the list, first post, been lurking for a day or two.
> 
> I'd be most interested in a CD of the old materials for the reasons
> Steve Hudson stated in #896.  I remember looking at ALL of those
> LLBs, (or FASA's  LTBs, or Paranoid's LBsOADC (Little Books Of All
> Different Colors)) in the Games Workshop store just outside of
> London back in '83.  While I have most of them, I kick myself now
> for the stuff I didn't get then!
> 
> Anybody remember something called the "Splat Gun" ?
> 
> Where's the best place to track down a copy of the T4 FF&S and
> Starships?
> 
> MikeJ
> "Pie, Coconut Cream     Penetration: 2     Damage: 3D"
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #898
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 27 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 899



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller Navigator Software
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)
Re: Traveller Navigator Software
Re: Traveller Navigator Software
Re: Relativistic Speeds
Re: Transstellar chronosynchronization
Re: Where to buy traveller (was re: Republishing CT materials)
TNE and where to buy in the UK
Re: Real world question
Re: Real world question 
W-OT Conspiracy Party (Was - re: Real world question )
Galactic Coordinates (Was RE: Transstellar chronosynchronization)
RE: W-OT Conspiracy Party (Was - re: Real world question )
Re: Real world question
Re: W-OT Conspiracy Party (Was - re: Real world question )
Re: Daylight Savings TIme
Re: 
Re: Real world question
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Real world question
RE: Real world question
Re: GT ship building
Re: On the nature of Jump Space
Re: Traveller Diplomacy (was Re: Even Better)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:58:14 -0500
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigator Software

Charles Collin wrote:

> Hi all.  Just perusing an old Pyramid mag that SJ Games put up on their
> website and came across a review of a program called Traveller Navigator.
> Apparently it helps one keep track of maps, times and so on.  Anyone heard
> of this?  Anyone used it?  What are your opinions?  Is it still available
> (the review mentions that it's for Win 3.1, so its a few years old at this
> point, but I'm still on a Win 3.1 machine, so...).
>
> Thanks,
> Charles.


I've heard of it.  I even found a copy of the Spinward Marches at my used
computer softward store a couple of years ago for $3.

It's a pretty good program except that it is written to accompany TNE.  Since
I don't use those rules, it was of limited use to me.

I remember seeing (about a year and a half to two years ago) someone on the
list posting that all the sectors the company made are available as freeware
on the net.  I know you used to be able to get them from one of the AOL sites.

I have no idea if they are still available as freeware, but I know the company
no longer publishes or supports the product.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

Richard Hough writes:

> Why does any of this matter? The geometric properties of 2D and 3D space
> really are different, and the use of 2D maps for outer space is, IMHO, the
> biggest departure from "hard science" in Traveller.

*cough*.  Laugh.  The biggest departures from hard science are jump drives,
reactionless thrusters, contragravity, and nuclear dampers.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

Richard Hough writes:

> Why does any of this matter? The geometric properties of 2D and 3D space
> really are different, and the use of 2D maps for outer space is, IMHO, the
> biggest departure from "hard science" in Traveller.

*cough*.  Laugh.  The biggest departures from hard science are jump drives,
reactionless thrusters, contragravity, and nuclear dampers.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:08:36 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Code of Law (Long)

Nick Bradbeer wrote:
>>>Trespassing
>>That's not even a crime around here (UK) - it's a civil action.
>
>
>Except in Areas Restricted Under The Official Secrets Act. (ie Interdicted
>Worlds).

Trespassing was criminalised a couple of years ago.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:54:50 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigator Software

try this link
http://www.davtechsys.com/ftp.htm

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigator Software


>
>
>Charles Collin wrote:
>
>> Hi all.  Just perusing an old Pyramid mag that SJ Games put up on their
>> website and came across a review of a program called Traveller Navigator.
>> Apparently it helps one keep track of maps, times and so on.  Anyone
heard
>> of this?  Anyone used it?  What are your opinions?  Is it still available
>> (the review mentions that it's for Win 3.1, so its a few years old at
this
>> point, but I'm still on a Win 3.1 machine, so...).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Charles.
>
>
>I've heard of it.  I even found a copy of the Spinward Marches at my used
>computer softward store a couple of years ago for $3.
>
>It's a pretty good program except that it is written to accompany TNE.
Since
>I don't use those rules, it was of limited use to me.
>
>I remember seeing (about a year and a half to two years ago) someone on the
>list posting that all the sectors the company made are available as
freeware
>on the net.  I know you used to be able to get them from one of the AOL
sites.
>
>I have no idea if they are still available as freeware, but I know the
company
>no longer publishes or supports the product.
>
>Kenneth.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:59:33 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigator Software

On second thought don't try this link it seems to be broken.

Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigator Software


>try this link
>http://www.davtechsys.com/ftp.htm
>
>Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:52:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic Speeds

In mail you write:

> I believe that Poul Andersen wrote this very story. I believe that it was
> called Tau Zero. In relativity physics, the "tau factor" is the inverse
> logarithm of the Lorenz-Fitzgerald contraction as an observer accelerates
> towards the  speed of light; the tau factor starts at zero at rest, and
> becomes infinity at light speed. 

Tau is one for a system at rest relative to you, and zero at lightspeed.
Gamma is the inverse of tau, and thus ranges from 1 to infinity.

Tau is the ratio of "at rest" time to "moving" time. It's also the
observed contraction in length.

Gamma is the ratio between "moving time" and "at rest" time. It's also
the ratio between "rest mass" and "relativistic mass".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:35:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Transstellar chronosynchronization

In mail you write:

> Isn't there some sort of absolute relationship between the
> absolute magnitude of certain variable stars and the period of
> their variation?  Cepheid variables (I think)?  By identifying a
> number of such stars, according to their spectra and periods, and
> any easily calculable changes in either over time, such that at
> least three would be visible from anywhere in the Imperium, one
> should be able to unambiguously set a clock and calendar - and
> reset them on coming out of jump.

Alas, the relationship isn't accurate enough for timekeeping. The
periods might be of use for synchonizing *calendars*, but not clocks.

> Those same easily identifiable
> variable stars also provide "anchor" points for navigational
> reconing, making it possible to know where one is after a
> misjump.

After a misjump that lands you in an "uncivilized" system or an empty
hex, the first thing you do is look for things like the Magellanic
Clouds. Those are a pair of satellite galaxies of our galaxy, and will
be visible from *anywhere* in the Imperium. They'll let you determine
galactic North, as well as spinward and coreward.

Armed with *that* info, you then attempt to spot stars that are "bright"
throughout the galaxy. Mostly Giants and supergiants. You'll have some
idea of which directions they should be in, so it's just a matter of
looking for bright stars in the "right" direction and then comparing
spectra. 

If you land in a "civilized" system, you merely use the radio to ask
where you are (assuming that the systems navigational beacons hadn't
already told you!). 

And for that matter, the Imperium (and other large multi-system powers)
can afford to have "beacons" on certain radio frequencies that could be
heard for *many* parsecs. These are mainly intended to help the IISS
with survey work by making it easier to determine the relative
positions of systems. But they also work for ships that have misjumped.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:08:00 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Where to buy traveller (was re: Republishing CT materials)

Shawn Campbell wrote:

> Try looking at:
> www.downport.com
> www.titangames.com
> www.ebay.com
>
> Just to name a few...

I have to recommend Downport!  Dealing with Sword Worlder was smooth
and easy.  Even with my stupid mistake of not remember that the credit
card bills is not from "Downport.com."

(Sorry for the confusion, Sword Worlder.  It should be taken care of now).

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:11:30 +0100
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: TNE and where to buy in the UK

I'm trying to complete my collection of TNE material but am having
trouble finding most of the items I need so can any one recommend places
to try in the UK?
- -- 
Chris T
If I should fall to rise no more
As many comrades did before 
Then ask the fifes and drums to play
Over the hill and far away

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:10:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Real world question

In mail you write:

> At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
>>>
>>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
>
>>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
>
> These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
> brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.

Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
*not* decaying).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:20:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Real world question 

> In mail you write:
> 
> > At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
> >>>
> >>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
> >
> >>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
> >
> > These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
> > brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
> 
> Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
> small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
> *not* decaying).

Maybe you were looking the wrong direction...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:30:59 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: W-OT Conspiracy Party (Was - re: Real world question )

At 02:20 PM 7/27/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
>> >>>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
>> >>>
>> >>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
>> >
>> >>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
>> >
>> > These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
>> > brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
>> 
>> Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
>> small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
>> *not* decaying).
>
>Maybe you were looking the wrong direction...
>
>Keven

        No... that he hasn't heard about these events is simply more
evidence of a cover-up..  any *sane* person knows they had to have happened....

        --Michel
        (TIC)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:34:15 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: Galactic Coordinates (Was RE: Transstellar chronosynchronization)

On Tuesday, July 27, 1999 11:35 AM
Leonard Erickson said,

> After a misjump that lands you in an "uncivilized" system or an empty
> hex, the first thing you do is look for things like the Magellanic
> Clouds. Those are a pair of satellite galaxies of our galaxy, and will
> be visible from *anywhere* in the Imperium. They'll let you determine
> galactic North, as well as spinward and coreward.

Just where is Galactic North?  It just dawns on me that I have read and used
this term for quite a while and don't know how to find it.  I was thinking
that it was (in normal astronomy) something akin to a point on the rim found
via a ray cast either from the galactic core through earth (or the
intersection of the galactic plane of a perpendicular line Passing through
earth) or a ray form this point trough the core.

I looked at the article @:
http://kids.infoplease.com/ce5/CE019926.html

And the article at:
http://cygnus.drao.nrc.ca/~schieven/news_mar94_english/gpsproj.html

And finally The Traveller Library entry @:
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/D/directio.htm#Top

states that coreward in traveller refers to towards the Imperial Core or
capital.  It galactic North in traveller a point on the rim along a ray cast
either from the capital through the galactic core or from the galactic core
through the capital?

G.D.D.
======
"How extravagant you are, throwing away women like that.  Some day they may
be scarce."-Captain Louis Renault, Casablanca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:39:16 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: W-OT Conspiracy Party (Was - re: Real world question )

On Tuesday, July 27, 1999 11:31 AM
Michel Vaillancourt said,


>         No... that he hasn't heard about these events is simply more
> evidence of a cover-up..  any *sane* person knows they had to
> have happened....

Or sure evidence that a black hole was released and is swallowing up anybody
that has seen it.  Any reports that that part of the world still exists is
the cover up.

G.D.D.
========
"...When you hit your thumb with an eight-pound hammer it's nice to be able
to blaspheme.  It takes a very special and strong-minded kind of atheist to
jump up and down...and shout..."Aaargh, primitive and outmoded concept on a
crutch!" --Terry Pratchet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:47:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Real world question

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > In mail you write:
> >
> > > At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
> > >>>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
> > >>>
> > >>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
> > >
> > >>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
> > >
> > > These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
> > > brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
> >
> > Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
> > small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
> > *not* decaying).
> 
> Maybe you were looking the wrong direction...

Maybe he was just looking at the little red light <FLASH>


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:55:21 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: W-OT Conspiracy Party (Was - re: Real world question )

> At 02:20 PM 7/27/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > At 06:53 PM 7/26/99 +0100, you wrote:
> >> >>>>Is required for what? (Just amused and curious.)
> >> >>>
> >> >>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
> >> >
> >> >>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen
belt is?
> >> >
> >> > These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out
from
> >> > brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.
> >>
> >> Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
> >> small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
> >> *not* decaying).
> >
> >Maybe you were looking the wrong direction...
> >
> >Keven
>
>         No... that he hasn't heard about these events is simply more
> evidence of a cover-up..  any *sane* person knows they had to have
happened....
>
And here I thought it was the Female Aslans (in comfertable shoes) on neer-c
rocks testing out the new FS crowd control/party time/say boom personal
defence system for mass market sales.

Wayne (CT/HG Tampler wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:49:18 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Daylight Savings TIme

>Okay Ob Trav, how many of you enforce time zones in your games?  I know
Carlos does, and I do...generally, but what about the rest of you?


Never been an issue for me yet.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:46:26 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 

>IMTU, the ship retains it's vector relative to the TWO most significant
>gravity-producing objects near it when it jumps, and realigns them to fit
>the two most significant at jump exit.


Interesting idea. What's your explanation for that? (I consider 'because it
works for me' a valid justification.)

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:55:41 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Real world question

>>>To survive the Van Allen Belts
>
>>To *survive*? How radioactive do these people think the Van Allen belt is?
>
>These people believe that JFK Jr. was killed by a blackhole flung out from
>brookhaven National Labs on Hillary Clinton's orders.


I concede your point, stop talking and start looking nervously about me for
a handy weapon. These people are *real*?


Of course, I work for the government (I have a badge and a black tie and
everything), so I'm probably just part of the Big Establishment Conspiracy.

NB

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:59:42 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

>> Why does any of this matter? The geometric properties of 2D and 3D space
>> really are different, and the use of 2D maps for outer space is, IMHO,
the
>> biggest departure from "hard science" in Traveller.
>
>*cough*.  Laugh.  The biggest departures from hard science are jump drives,
reactionless thrusters, contragravity, and nuclear dampers.


I'm not sure how you can decide which is the biggest departure.

I do know though, having attempted to rebuild a version of the TNE rules as
close to known science as possible, that failure to accept certain important
departures (jump drives especially and to a lesser extent artificial
gravity) does leave you with a pretty limited game scope.

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:07:16 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Real world question

>Funny, I don't recall hearing about any nuclear range explosions (a
>small black hole decaying) or unusual tidak events (a larger black hole
>*not* decaying).


Blimey, dumbass....don't you know *anything*? The black hole was then
scooped up on board the US Air Force's M1A1 Flying Saucer, cloned from the
one we bought from the Greys back in 1991 (you thought the Gulf War was over
*oil*?) which was then refuelled at Mir (which is actually a fully armed
secret battle station and the only thing holding back the BEMs) and shot out
to the L5 Lagrange point to join Elvis and all the 8-track tapes the US
Government unilaterally confiscated from its citizenry without anyone
noticing.

The wonderful thing about conspiracy theories is that whatever rational
explanation you can come up with, it's possible to come up with
progressively more outlandish theories to explain them away. And the fact
that there's no proof is the CLEAREST PROOF THAT IT'S A COVER-UP.

Apologies to any conspiracy theorists here; I just find the concept amusing.

Nick
- ---

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:29:57 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Real world question

On Tuesday, July 27, 1999 12:07 PM
Nick Barber said,

> The wonderful thing about conspiracy theories is that whatever rational
> explanation you can come up with, it's possible to come up with
> progressively more outlandish theories to explain them away.
> And the fact that there's no proof is the CLEAREST PROOF THAT IT'S A
COVER-UP.

That is exactly what someone that was covering up the conspiracy would say.

G.D.D.
======
"Anti-ninjas were the most feared assassins in the world.  Instead of
appearing out of thin air, throwing metal stars and messing around with Bo
staffs and numchuks they simply shot people and then drove everyone mad with
pointless conspiracy theories for years afterwards."  -from N-Man #3

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:43:02 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT ship building

>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:53:08 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
>Subject: World building and GT ship building
>
>And as to GT ships, I can find no mention of fuel skimming rates in GT. 
>Scoops are mentioned in the Ship Patron sidebar, but the ship building
>section only talks about purifiers and their rates.  (I haven't given the
>book microscopic examination yet, but sheesh, you'd think this sort of
>information would feature in the ship building section rather prominently.
>Errata?  2nd ed.?) 

GT: Starships. This was one of many topics that there just wasn't space to
address explicitly in the main GT book. There will also be a sidebar on
"wilderness refueling" in GT: Imperial Navy, if I ever get a chance to
write it.

Right now, it looks as if I'm going to translate the rules from HG2 and
Supp 5 directly to GURPS. The fuel skimming and purifying rules in GURPS
(particularly VE2) are radically different.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:15:20 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: On the nature of Jump Space

> Antony Farrell writes:
> >In CT & MT the Jump Field was required while in jump space to prevent the
> >physics of that region from intruding into the ships interior. You could go
> >EVA but as the jump field was only 1 metre from the hull it could get very
> >tricky.
>
> Where does it cover this in CT? The first time that I heard of
> jump physics "intruding" into a ship's interior was here on the
> TML, but I haven't read every CT source (and I don't remember
> all that I have read :-). Just wondering.

"Jumpspace", by Marc Miller, JTAS #24.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:33:15 -0600
From: "Christopher B. Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Diplomacy (was Re: Even Better)

>Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:19:33 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Even Better (Was Re: Traveller Monopoly)
>
>Monopoly?  Well, if you have enough people over to make it
>interesting.  But what about Traveller Diplomacy?
>
>Anyone else interested in developing this idea?

I was working on a version of Diplomacy for use in the Islands Clusters.
The idea was to simulate the political maneuvering behind and between the
fleet actions. I have a sheet of counters, but only a sketch of the rules.
The map, of course, is the standard double-subsector layout.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #899
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